Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques, I'm Ben Miller.
Speaker: This is the podcast about art, decorative arts and antiques, the stories behind them and what they can reveal to us about ourselves and the people who came before us.
Speaker: And we are doing an advice episode today.
Speaker: It's on a topic that I think a lot of people struggle with, and that is antique rugs.
Speaker: We love them, we need them, but let's be honest, we're also kind of afraid of them.
Speaker: You can buy them anywhere, and I mean,
Speaker: anywhere, but buying the right one ain't easy.
Speaker: And that's good.
Speaker: If it were easy, it wouldn't be fun.
Speaker: But there are just so many options and your room needs the perfect rug, right?
Speaker: You want the right size and color and pattern, etc, etc.
Speaker: And that's just the tip of the iceberg because you also want quality and condition and you want to get good value and price.
Speaker: And these are factors that personally I find really, really hard to sort out.
Speaker: I see sticker prices that can be totally mysterious and I feel like I have no idea whether I'm getting ripped off.
Speaker: And then once you do have your dream rug, there are even more questions about how to take care of it.
Speaker: And if all of this is sounding a little intimidating and you're starting to think maybe a plain linoleum tiled floor wouldn't be so bad after all, hold on a second, because my guest today wants to show you that you can find your ideal rug and not get ripped off and treat your toes right and have something handcrafted and beautiful and authentic with a captivating story behind it that will last for generations.
Speaker: You can have it all.
Speaker: I am talking today with the perfect guide to the complicated world of rugs, Jordan Harris.
Speaker: Jordan and his wife Ingrid fell in love with rugs during their globetrotting as disaster relief workers.
Speaker: And now they buy and sell fine handmade rugs in Charlottesville, Virginia, through their company Weft and Wool.
Speaker: And today Jordan is going to lead us through the naughty world of rugs from identifying their origins to evaluating their condition and quality to finding the perfect style for your space.
Speaker: And he's also going to share with us a special and really beautiful rug that he has picked out as today's curious object.
Speaker: But before all of that, I have some rapid fire questions.
Speaker: Jordan, are you ready?
Speaker: I'm ready.
Speaker: Yeah, you really set the stage there.
Speaker: So let's start with some easy ones here.
Speaker: I wish you luck with that.
Speaker: What's the worst color of shag carpet?
Speaker: Oh, man, color.
Speaker: I would say...
Speaker: There's something unique about an orange that that I don't know what time period it was in the 60s or 70s that vibrant orange, but it's it's more of the application.
Speaker: Like in my brother's house, it not only was in the bathroom, but up the toilet, as I'm sure many of your viewers would be.
Speaker: Oh, I feel like we easy just thinking about that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay, what's the most valuable rug you've ever touched?
Speaker: I think it would be at the Textile Museum at George Washington University.
Speaker: And for many of these rugs, you know, there's a different category of price points when museums are dealing.
Speaker: And so I don't know where exactly it would fall in the open market, but, you know, rugs can easily, once they're in the
Speaker: you know, 17th, 16th century and earlier, they can easily get into six figures and beyond.
Speaker: So I don't think I've reached the multi-million dollar price point, but definitely into six figures.
Speaker: There's still time.
Speaker: What's the most overpriced rug you've ever seen?
Speaker: That's a great question.
Speaker: I'm often picking up rugs at estate sales and it truly breaks my heart when I flip over a corner of a rug and somebody's kept the original sales tag and a rug that I think would
Speaker: sell reasonably for $1,000 to $2,000.
Speaker: I'll flip it over and see the tag that it was originally bought for and it might be at the $40,000 to $50,000 price point.
Speaker: So, you know, there's, it's, as your listeners will know, this is the world of vintage and antique rugs.
Speaker: And so it's not an outlier, that story, right?
Speaker: It's pretty common.
Speaker: What city has the most interesting rug shops?
Speaker: Good question.
Speaker: You're in New York City, and I'm not just trying to play favorites here, but I think New York City, but also it's hard to beat Istanbul, you know, the collections and museums.
Speaker: And I mean, it's a different experience, but New York has some great rugs, you know, just by nature of the museums.
Speaker: Rugs that will gladly be shown to you, you know, in a gallery with a high end dealer, you, you might have to prove your worth to get to the very expensive rugs.
Speaker: But in New York, you can walk over to the Met and see what they have on display.
Speaker: And that's, that's really a gift.
Speaker: Who's the most eccentric rug dealer you've met?
Speaker: I feel like I shouldn't answer that.
Speaker: And what I should say, actually, maybe this will cause the rug dealers to laugh, is that every rug dealer is eccentric in an unexpected way.
Speaker: You think you know the type and you have a handle on what to expect, but...
Speaker: There are a lot of odd rug dealers out there, myself included, in my own ways, but that's the fun of it.
Speaker: Great individuals and overall a great market.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Well, we'll leave it up to listeners to figure out exactly in what way you are... The political answer there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What's the first book that a budding new rug enthusiast should read?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think that a great balance of informational but readable is aptly titled Oriental Rugs, A Complete Guide.
Speaker: And that's by an expert, Murray Island.
Speaker: Actually, two of them.
Speaker: There's a junior and a senior.
Speaker: But, you know,
Speaker: He traveled to these regions, has firsthand accounts, but displays it in a relatable way from what makes RUG in terms of structure and materials, and then gets into the specifics of regions and tribes and villages.
Speaker: And so that's typically what I'll recommend to the beginning RUG aficionado.
Speaker: What's been your single most exciting find so far?
Speaker: Oh, these are rapid fire questions thinking on the spot here.
Speaker: I have a soft spot for prayer rugs.
Speaker: They're unique and there's that embedded spirituality, right?
Speaker: And on top of that, I think the Caucasus are another soft spot for rug origins for myself.
Speaker: And so
Speaker: They're probably not rugs that you'd write home about, but the simplicity, the relatability, and the divine aspect or the transcendental nature of these rugs, I've just found that I truly connect with those.
Speaker: So likely a Caucasian prayer rug from modern Armenia.
Speaker: I like that you're gravitating towards something that's sort of a personal connection rather than the thing that's the, you know, jackpot, you know, treasure discovery.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's a lot about how you relate to rugs.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's part of my mission, my ethos.
Speaker: I think we'll get into that in the discussion is that what you personally are drawn to and appreciate is a value, right?
Speaker: There's an inherent value of a rug, but
Speaker: let's face it, it will be in your home.
Speaker: You'll live with it day in and day out for decades.
Speaker: And so it should be something that inspires awe and joy and that you personally enjoy.
Speaker: So that's something I always encourage customers to look at and consider.
Speaker: And if they don't know that yet, it's kind of funny when I send a list of rugs or they look through my website and send a few options that they are interested in, I'll find a comment thread of, you know, these are all from this region of the world or in
Speaker: And they don't even know that they're making that connection.
Speaker: But whether it's geometric or curvilinear, loose weave or fine weave or certain colors, I think we all have a type of rug that we're drawn to.
Speaker: And that's a valid consideration to get into when looking at rugs.
Speaker: Yeah, we have a lot to talk about there.
Speaker: Last rapid fire question for you.
Speaker: What rug would you choose to be buried with?
Speaker: Oh, this is a great question.
Speaker: And I would, again, play a political answer, but a very true one in that I don't think I've found it yet.
Speaker: And that's the joy of being a rug dealer.
Speaker: And I think that eccentrism that many of us have is we are all driven by the chase to find the next rug.
Speaker: And, you know, every rug being unique and individual, you know,
Speaker: it could just be around the next corner, that incredible piece.
Speaker: I think there are some rugs that I might choose, but I would rather they live on in existence and pass it on to my kids or family or friend rather than be buried with it.
Speaker: I think the beauty of rugs is that they're meant to be used and lived with.
Speaker: The caveat there is that the oldest existent rug was buried in a tomb in Egypt.
Speaker: Russia and froze over.
Speaker: And so thanks to someone being buried with a rug, we have the earliest example in the Paziric carpet.
Speaker: People can Google oldest rug and they'll find more on that history.
Speaker: But I'm glad somebody was buried with a rug.
Speaker: But personally, I would pass it on to somebody.
Speaker: Fair enough.
Speaker: Well, we'll be right back with Jordan Harris for a crash course on buying rugs and a conversation about this very interesting rug that he has to tell us about today's curious object.
Speaker: You can see pictures of that at themagazineantiques.com slash podcast.
Speaker: And you can see many more of Jordan's rugs at weftandwool.com or on their Instagram at weftandwool.
Speaker: If you'd like to get in touch with me, I'd really enjoy that.
Speaker: I'm on Instagram at Objective Interest, or you can email me at curiousobjectspodcast at gmail.com.
Speaker: And if you'd like to help me out, I'd so appreciate it.
Speaker: If you tell a friend or a parent or a grandparent about the podcast, maybe you can help them figure out how to listen to a podcast.
Speaker: And of course, it's terrific when you leave a five star rating on Apple podcasts or write a review there.
Speaker: Someone recently wrote, I am enjoying everything about the show.
Speaker: The conversations are clearly structured so that the listener learns a good deal about a fascinating topic.
Speaker: Thank you so much for those kind words.
Speaker: I love hearing what you think about the show.
Speaker: And those reviews also help new listeners to find their way to curious objects.
Speaker: So keep them coming.
Speaker: Now, Jordan, tell me right off the bat, why shouldn't I buy a cheap mass produced rug?
Speaker: Yeah, that's a question that I get often.
Speaker: And I don't want to be accused of elitism or something here, but there are conditions or situations where that might be the right rug for you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There are certain uses in the home.
Speaker: But what I will say in making my case for a quality handmade rug is, you know, there's the topics of sustainability.
Speaker: Many of these cheap rugs are mass produced.
Speaker: They're machine made with fibers other than wool.
Speaker: Usually it's a
Speaker: rayon or some other synthetic material that ages quickly ends up in a landfill.
Speaker: And so when you're buying a handmade rug, you're buying quality over quantity.
Speaker: So, you know, if you're early on in your very first apartment, you might not have the budget for handmade rug.
Speaker: You might need a stopgap quick one year rug.
Speaker: But the fact is many of these rugs, I don't know if you've had this experience, maybe your listeners have, if you buy a cheap machine made rug,
Speaker: The corners will start to curl up in the next year or two.
Speaker: Stains will settle in and be difficult to wash out.
Speaker: And they just start to wear.
Speaker: And the quality difference is evident.
Speaker: So when you buy a handmade rug, you're investing in one rug over the course of two, three decades rather than 10 or 20 rugs over that time.
Speaker: So it actually ends up being competitive, if not even more competitive.
Speaker: effective to purchase a handmade rug.
Speaker: And then thirdly, the draw of these rugs is that they are works of art.
Speaker: You know, the imperfections, the expression of motifs, these all are reflections of nature.
Speaker: The weavers take on life and they might have meaning, they might not, but there's something
Speaker: for your floor that you can connect with and that inspires us to appreciate beauty more.
Speaker: So sustainability, you're not contributing to landfills.
Speaker: These rugs are completely sustainable materials, either wool or cotton or even goat hair.
Speaker: And then quality over quantity.
Speaker: And then thirdly, you're enjoying something beautiful.
Speaker: It's art for your floor.
Speaker: Okay, so let's talk about taxonomy for a minute, because I want to understand the general categories of rugs that are out there.
Speaker: So help me out.
Speaker: How should we break this down?
Speaker: There are different regions, you know, whether it's Tabriz or Isfahan, there are nomadic rugs versus city rugs, there are different age categories.
Speaker: What other ways can we break this down?
Speaker: Yeah, I think starting at the, you know, 30,000 foot view, there's Persian, Turkish, Caucasian, Moroccan, you know, North African and Caucasian.
Speaker: India and Pakistan as well.
Speaker: But generally, the most helpful differentiation I find for clients and even for myself is nomadic being one, village being another, and then workshop slash city being the third.
Speaker: And your viewers are probably more familiar with this than they give themselves credit for.
Speaker: If you think of a rug that's very detailed and ornate, finely knotted, usually a larger format, that's likely a workshop or a city rug.
Speaker: And that makes sense if we think about the evolution of weaving as production increased.
Speaker: You know, this is something...
Speaker: even to the Ottoman Empire before that, where workshops and cities were hubs that enabled more possibilities with textiles in terms of size, of a loom, in terms of a budget for wool and what dyes could be used.
Speaker: And then also these workshops slash city rugs were drawn from a planned design.
Speaker: Historically, this might have been...
Speaker: you know, a drawn out cartoon or map.
Speaker: We also have examples of these samplers that were woven by an expert and then used to produce these consistent designs that were then sold at market or exported.
Speaker: So workshop and city rugs, they tend to be finely knotted, more curvilinear.
Speaker: So you have floral designs,
Speaker: The edges are not geometric or harsh.
Speaker: It's very gentle on the eye.
Speaker: Designs are more botanical.
Speaker: And then you have village carpets, which typically those were woven by women working at home in their spare time.
Speaker: So, you know, historically, a family might have had some some sheep, sheep, sheep,
Speaker: had or gone to market for wool.
Speaker: But as a family was engaged in other activities, agricultural or whatever else, many of the women would be at home working on rugs.
Speaker: And so these tend to be
Speaker: highly creative because they combined tribal influences or nomadic influences with the sophistication of trying to satisfy a market.
Speaker: So these weavers and villages would have been aware of
Speaker: what was sold in the cities, what was desirable.
Speaker: And so they would have known what designs were popular, but they also wouldn't have been influenced by an overlord or somebody who, or some might've been, but generally they had freedom in expressing their individuality.
Speaker: And so they would,
Speaker: There's a wide range of rugs in this category because it might be a traditional design, it might be a newer design, but the individual weaver would spend their own take on that.
Speaker: And so it sounds like you're saying it's not that city rugs are just better than pneumatic rugs.
Speaker: They have different pros and cons.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: And I'll get into that.
Speaker: I'll actually make the opposite case in my, this is again, when we get into personal tastes, I am very much more for the nomadic or village rugs.
Speaker: And so the third category there, the first was city slash workshop.
Speaker: The second was village where women would be at home stationary working on, on rugs.
Speaker: And third nomadic rugs would, as the name implies, be woven by nomads.
Speaker: So these were woven completely by memory.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: a tradition passed from mother to daughter, and many of them were made for personal use rather than for sale.
Speaker: You'll usually find they have skinnier widths and smaller size formats generally because these looms had to be packed up and moved around.
Speaker: And usually also these rugs were used, the materials they used would be a slightly coarser wool,
Speaker: rich in lanolin and durable, but the wool itself would typically be coarser and so the knots would be larger.
Speaker: So lower knot count than city rugs.
Speaker: Village rugs would probably be in the middle in terms of knot count.
Speaker: And then these nomadic rugs, the majority of the time would be geometric in design.
Speaker: Again, I think your viewers might have a handle on this, or if they take this information and go look at a wide range of rugs, they'll have these categories of nomadic village and city to kind of screen out what...
Speaker: draws them what they're interested in, you know, geometric or linear, loosely knotted or finely knotted.
Speaker: But your point there about, I think, historically, city or workshop rugs were touted as, you know, these are the best, they're what you want.
Speaker: And part of that would be the rug salesman would be an integral part of
Speaker: the exporting and sale of these rugs.
Speaker: And so they would be upsold, whereas the village nomadic rugs that were
Speaker: typically just limited to local markets or in the home, were looked down upon for a time.
Speaker: But what's fascinating and I think beautiful now is the market has shifted to where the simple rugs, the crude rugs, are what is most appreciated now because they maintained the individuality of weavers, that unique design that doesn't match any other rug.
Speaker: Whereas a workshop or a city rug, while it might be the
Speaker: most finely knotted and technically the most durable.
Speaker: Um, it might be one of a hundred or one of 200 or even more designs.
Speaker: And so, um,
Speaker: Um, personally I'm, I'm drawn to nomadic and village rugs because they are, um, just fascinating.
Speaker: They pose so many questions.
Speaker: And again, like we talked about earlier, there's a connection, um, that at least personally I'm able to make with these rugs and wondering about the story behind it, the incredible artists behind it that we'll never know.
Speaker: Well, you're making me feel pretty good right now.
Speaker: Cause I'm sitting on top of a nomadic rug as we speak.
Speaker: Oh, great.
Speaker: You'll have to send me a picture later.
Speaker: Oh, I'm embarrassed about it.
Speaker: I'd be happy to give my opinion on age and specific origin and whatnot.
Speaker: Maybe I'll work up the curtain.
Speaker: But you had a particular rug you wanted to tell us about that you've acquired.
Speaker: I mentioned it's a rug from Karaja.
Speaker: And you've dated it to circa 1900.
Speaker: What does this rug look like?
Speaker: And how does it fit into these categories that you've just described for us?
Speaker: Yeah, so Karaja is a village, or these rugs are village rugs in terms of those categories that we spoke about.
Speaker: And near to Karaja and with similar designs is Hariz, which many listeners might be familiar with there.
Speaker: similar to Karajah, but a bit more refined and there's less individuality expressed in those Hariz rugs.
Speaker: And so what's unique about this rug that, so actually I should take a step back here.
Speaker: So Karajah is about 35 miles northeast of Tabriz in Azerbaijan province.
Speaker: So northwest Iran, just south of the Caucasus mountains.
Speaker: And they're distinguished from Haris by use of a single weft, so that horizontal structure holding the knots in place.
Speaker: And so what's also unique about these rugs is the colors are a bit more subdued than Haris rugs.
Speaker: They tend to
Speaker: they tend toward Caucasian in their color palette of more blues and greens.
Speaker: And it's beautiful as in the case of this rug, this rusty orange terracotta,
Speaker: that comes from the matter red.
Speaker: And so what's fascinating about this rug, this Karaja, is that being from right around 1900, the turn of the century, it benefits from the advances that had taken place in rug weaving in the late 1800s.
Speaker: And so what you have there is really beautiful designs that borrowed from
Speaker: other regions and a structure of the rug that's incredibly durable and hard wearing.
Speaker: So this rug would be, while it's 120 years old, it would be perfectly well used in a living or dining room and has decades more to give, if not a century.
Speaker: And what I love about this rug, and if people are looking at it, that's probably the best way to explain it, but I'll do my best for audio only listeners.
Speaker: There's a freedom and spontaneity to the design.
Speaker: And that's really what
Speaker: as we talked about nomadic and village carpets, that's what in many ways gives a rug value is there's a weaver behind it, there's imperfections, there's a story behind the rug.
Speaker: So if you look at this rug, you'll see that to the left of the medallion and to the right of the medallion, the distribution of smaller motifs
Speaker: is completely inconsistent.
Speaker: And even the spacing is slightly different.
Speaker: And the reason for this would be a rug this size, it's about nine by 12, I think it is.
Speaker: Weavers would work in about three foot sections on a larger loom.
Speaker: And they would each be working up the rug and coordinating what motifs are where and how the rug is spaced.
Speaker: And they might make a mistake
Speaker: but they would overcome that by this free distribution of motifs of on the wider side.
Speaker: On the left, the motifs are skinnier and tightly packed.
Speaker: On the right, where it's tighter, they use larger motifs.
Speaker: And so the weavers were really artists and understood how to manipulate the eye of a viewer.
Speaker: And so on first glance,
Speaker: you might not notice these inconsistencies, but on further inspection, you'll see it and that tells a story in itself and is really beautiful because you just get these motifs that are woven by a weaver and placed in a specific spot
Speaker: And that planning was done freely rather than from a grid that was mapped out and planned.
Speaker: And so when I talk about the Golden Age, just to take a step back, there's that period of weavers being equipped with more materials, a broader market, more income, and
Speaker: but then the advances in dyes.
Speaker: But that started to die out as industrialization really took hold and more and more rugs were planned.
Speaker: Synthetic dyes were integrated starting in the early 1900s, but really by the 1940s and 50s, synthetic dyes were kind of standard.
Speaker: So if you look at this rug, when you look at a blue or a green,
Speaker: it's not a singular color there's so much depth and variety you know for green for example it's it's a yellow dye that would be then over dyed with an indigo and so you see variation within it of competing yellow and blue and and there's life to it um
Speaker: So, yeah, the golden age, again, by the 30s, 40s, rugs were really standardized, used synthetic dyes.
Speaker: And as people moved to cities and wove less, the transmission of generational knowledge and how to weave was in many ways lost.
Speaker: There are people who are trying to revive it, but when you think of centuries of...
Speaker: of rug weaving wisdom and knowledge passed down generationally.
Speaker: That's a difficult ask to regain that.
Speaker: So this Karaja rug is from circa 1900.
Speaker: Technically, it's an antique, it's over 100 years old.
Speaker: But what are the sort of different age categories that rugs fit into?
Speaker: That's an important point.
Speaker: So there are three general categories of vintage, semi-antique, and antique, I guess four, with modern being another one.
Speaker: But vintage, and these are always moving a little bit, but vintage is usually around the 30 to 50 year mark, semi-antique 60 to 80 or 90, depending who you ask.
Speaker: And now that we're in 2024, time keeps moving, antique is typically 90 to 100 plus years old.
Speaker: So that's an important category for listeners to consider what condition usually corresponds, as does rarity, with the age of a rug.
Speaker: So that's an important thing to consider as we're looking at rugs.
Speaker: In your mind, is older generally better?
Speaker: Yes and no.
Speaker: So generally, I think, you know, nine times out of 10 antique rugs will be better.
Speaker: But semi-antique offers some unique, you know, great price points.
Speaker: Certain regions still use natural dyes or a blend of synthetic and natural, still had individual expression by the weavers.
Speaker: So there are some great deals to be had in the semi-antique space and great condition as well.
Speaker: Vintage, there are interesting things that happened in that time period.
Speaker: Unique rugs.
Speaker: That sounds like a euphemism.
Speaker: Well, yeah.
Speaker: I mean, the bounds of rug weaving were really pushed right in that time period as they are in modern rugs.
Speaker: So if you love a rug from that period, it's likely in great condition, might have some crazy colors and fun designs.
Speaker: And if it's for you, great.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But generally, antique rugs, that's my personal preference and where you'll find the most interesting rugs.
Speaker: Yes.
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Speaker: So with all these different categories and styles and approaches, I mean, it can easily be overwhelming for someone like me with a small brain.
Speaker: How do I go about, like, how should I think about finding a rug or identifying a style of rug that I could fall in love with?
Speaker: And that's going to work in my space.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great question and an important one that we're here to answer today, or at least try.
Speaker: And I think it's an exciting time to be a buyer.
Speaker: I would give that encouragement.
Speaker: There's plenty of opportunity.
Speaker: And, you know, with the internet, there is democratization and more fair pricing.
Speaker: But with that, it's also overwhelming, right?
Speaker: So,
Speaker: I think I would encourage listeners to consider what route is most comfortable for them.
Speaker: Is in-person shopping the way they want to go or online?
Speaker: Either way, I think if you go online, you should at minimum require a return policy and you should...
Speaker: You should really look for a seller with photos that clearly display the rug because it's something you need to see in person in your space and know how it feels, how you connect with it.
Speaker: But if you're looking in person, find a reputable gallery near you and use that opportunity to ask a lot of questions.
Speaker: You want a seller who doesn't just spin tails and exaggerate.
Speaker: But you want somebody who will get into the details of what makes this rug unique, where is it from, or who at the very least will flip through a pile of 100 rugs to help you decide what sort of style you're drawn to.
Speaker: Personally, as an online seller, I'm a proponent for that method.
Speaker: The benefits there is lower prices.
Speaker: more options.
Speaker: Um, you know, as an online shop, my overhead is quite minimal.
Speaker: I have a studio and I do local showings, but, uh, for online sales, people can easily scroll through a website.
Speaker: Um, and, and,
Speaker: cursory glance, really maybe get an idea of, of what sort of rug they're looking for.
Speaker: Um, but really shop around.
Speaker: Uh, I've, I've really embraced the truth that I might not have the perfect rug for you by the nature of rugs being individual and hand knotted and so widely varied in design and color.
Speaker: Um, and so, you know, if you're shopping online, I might have the rug for you.
Speaker: I might not,
Speaker: One caveat here, I would say if you're looking international, so some people buy on Etsy and other platforms, it is illegal to import Persian rugs, even if they were woven before the current...
Speaker: the current leadership of Iran, you know, the sanctions between countries do prohibit importing of rugs.
Speaker: But there is an abundant quantity of rugs in the U.S. You know, they've been importing since, you know, 1800s.
Speaker: And so great rugs are already here.
Speaker: Good.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't want my listeners to end up in prison.
Speaker: Thanks to this episode.
Speaker: So I appreciate that.
Speaker: We did a good deal today.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What are some of the basic criteria of quality that I should be looking for, whether it's in person or online?
Speaker: We've talked about not count.
Speaker: I mean, what other attributes are there to keep an eye out for?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So a good seller, a rug dealer will help you determine the right use of the right rug.
Speaker: So I often have a rug that somebody loves, you know, a Caucasian piece and Caucasian rugs, they fell into that.
Speaker: village category or sometimes nomadic where they're loosely knotted.
Speaker: And so let's say I have a three by eight runner.
Speaker: Somebody wants to put it in their kitchen and I'll typically try to steer them away from something like that because a rug that's more loosely knotted and might have some wear would be better used in
Speaker: a bedroom or a seating nook, somewhere without traffic or without as much traffic.
Speaker: And so condition again is, it depends where you're placing a rug in the home.
Speaker: something like this antique carja here is very durable.
Speaker: It has thick, a thick foundation that that's holding all the knots in place.
Speaker: There is some scattered wear in areas just due to use kind of a, maybe considered a patina, but there's no areas of knots missing.
Speaker: And so this again, in a living room or dining room would
Speaker: I would have no concerns.
Speaker: So condition, you really have to decide what you're comfortable with.
Speaker: There are varying levels of condition from somewhere to the pile to you can see the foundation to the extreme of there are holes in this rug.
Speaker: I'm not above that.
Speaker: Uh, I, many buyers want those rugs.
Speaker: Uh, I think younger buyers tend to, they want a rug that looks older.
Speaker: And, um, the benefit there too, is the price point is much more affordable.
Speaker: Um, as, as condition goes down, your price should go down as well.
Speaker: Uh, generally, unless you have an incredibly rare rug, but, um, you, what you usually want is, uh,
Speaker: ends and sides to be straight.
Speaker: You want them to be secured and not unraveling.
Speaker: And so it's determining what you're comfortable with, but that corresponds with price as well.
Speaker: Okay, there are a couple of specifics that I want to ask you about because, you know, there are ways you could be deceived, right?
Speaker: And so, for example, you know, I've seen rugs that have been re-dyed.
Speaker: And I understand that that's seen as a bad thing.
Speaker: So, you know, how should I keep an eye out for that?
Speaker: Yeah, I think as a starting point, it would behoove listeners to know that or accept that rugs woven in most of the world, with the exception of maybe some Moroccan rugs, most Persian, Turkish, Caucasian rugs were woven with
Speaker: plenty of color.
Speaker: And so if you're looking at a rug that's monochromatic or devoid of any color, odds are that that is a rug that has been altered or is a modern rug that has been made to look old.
Speaker: You know, red was very much a
Speaker: and still is a popular color in persia so most rugs in persia will have reds um my example rug here the karajah is is closer to the caucuses where you have more orange blue green um and deep indigos so there there are options out there but yeah i uh as any instagram followers will know i am um
Speaker: On a crusade, or maybe there's a better word, I am against the current trend of chemical washing and bleaching rugs.
Speaker: Mostly in Turkey, they're doing this operation where they'll take an old rug and strip it in an acid wash.
Speaker: and the resulting rug often is very brittle, but it meets the current market.
Speaker: There's a trend that people see online or in magazines, and they want their home to look just like everyone else's.
Speaker: And often the rug is an afterthought.
Speaker: It's just kind of a bland beige floor covering.
Speaker: And that's not what these rugs were intended to be.
Speaker: They were intended to be full of life and color,
Speaker: And so I think that process of bleaching and chemical washing a rug is, one, disrespectful to the artist and the art, but two, again, it's a trend.
Speaker: I don't think those rugs will hold their value in the long run.
Speaker: If I was selling you a 100-year-old rug that had gone through this process, you wouldn't want to collect it, right, because it's been altered from its original state.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So, yeah, but I would say, too, that washing has been a process with rug weaving for centuries.
Speaker: You know, there were tea washes.
Speaker: There's the general wash after a rug was woven or even before to soften some colors.
Speaker: Many American sarukes were woven, and then they were...
Speaker: painted essentially, you know, paint markers were used on the pile to give even more color or to create a rug that was more palatable to Western or American markets.
Speaker: So that's a very familiar rug style to Americans because in the 40s and 50s, many of these were imported and sold very well.
Speaker: But if you look at the back of the rug, the color is substantially different from the front.
Speaker: And so, yeah, again, this process has been around for a long time.
Speaker: In my mind, that process is different than a chemical or acid wash because the chemicals used now are stripping all the color, but also damaging the fibers of the rug.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Amazing how that trend sort of vacillates from wanting the more vibrant color to sort of create these extra vibrant colors to wanting to destroy the color salts together.
Speaker: And I was told once by a rug dealer that if you take a wet napkin and rub it across the surface of a rug, that if it pulls up color with it, that that's a sign that it's been tampered with.
Speaker: Is that right?
Speaker: It could be, or it could be, you know, red is a color that often bleeds.
Speaker: There were many below drugs in East Iran and Afghanistan and Pakistan that were woven with dyes that bled a little bit.
Speaker: So it's not across the board true.
Speaker: And those dyes might be natural, but, or a synthetic might be red and bleed.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: If it comes back one color across most of the rug, it probably has been tempered with.
Speaker: If it comes back with any color, I would try to steer you away from that rug generally because you'll have to have your rug washed at some point.
Speaker: And while bleeding rugs can be washed correctly, it can get very complicated and...
Speaker: A minimal amount of dye bleed is acceptable, but if you have enough to the point where you're wiping a napkin or a towel on the rug and the color is coming up, that's probably not something suitable for the home.
Speaker: Whether or not it's authentic, it's not worth bothering with.
Speaker: Correct.
Speaker: What about fringe?
Speaker: What should I be looking for there?
Speaker: Um, yeah, I don't think that it's
Speaker: I would say that a straight fringe is generally a good sign.
Speaker: And if you look at the reverse, it should be stitched and secured if the original flat weave or something is not attached.
Speaker: There are artificial fringes that are often woven or stitched on top of the rug.
Speaker: I usually remove those.
Speaker: I don't like the look of it, and it's not original to the rug, but to each their own.
Speaker: So fringe, I think, is...
Speaker: Not really too important when you're considering a rug, other than, you know, back to that condition point, it might be a good indicator of, has this rug been cared for?
Speaker: Is it going to slowly unravel over time?
Speaker: Okay, let's talk about price because this is the, for me, the really thorny thing that I have so much trouble wrapping my head around.
Speaker: I mean, obviously one answer is you should find a dealer you trust and rely on their judgment.
Speaker: But if I'm buying something online, you know, maybe from a dealer I've never met,
Speaker: Um, or if I'm, you know, at a marketplace somewhere and just looking at rugs and I don't have someone to, to lean on for advice, what should I be thinking about in terms of price and value?
Speaker: And frankly, you know, by the same token, like, should I be thinking about a rug as, as an investment?
Speaker: Yeah, man, this is where the real meat of the conversation will be, I think, for listeners, because everyone is familiar with the overpriced rug, right?
Speaker: And the spinning of tails and the exaggerated stories about a rug.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Every person who has swindled on an overpriced rug trusted their dealer at some point.
Speaker: That's right.
Speaker: So that advice is, well, there are some established dealers who have been around for a long time and have connections in your community.
Speaker: That's usually a good indication that that is a reliable dealer.
Speaker: I always tell people to never buy from the going out of business sales that...
Speaker: move around.
Speaker: If you look, you'll see these signs all the time, you know, 70% off a rug or all rugs, closing sale.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I really wanted to ask you about that because this seems so ubiquitous.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And maybe we'll circle back to that later.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, so what I'd say is unless you really know what you're looking at and looking for.
Speaker: So if you've invested that time in reading,
Speaker: plenty of books in spending time with rugs at a gallery or elsewhere.
Speaker: Um, you know, if, if you know what you're looking at and you're confident, it's, you can find incredible rugs and know what you're looking for and get great deals.
Speaker: Um, if you don't know, and most people just don't have the time or bandwidth or interest maybe in, in going that deep in rugs, um, looking online.
Speaker: And I think again, um,
Speaker: Just like a local dealer would be reputable by community input and being in a place for a long time.
Speaker: I think online reviews go a long way.
Speaker: What other customers say, does this person provide knowledge freely to customers?
Speaker: Through my social media channels, I try to educate my buyers, whether they buy from me or not, or somebody sends me
Speaker: You know, if any of your listeners send me a picture of rugs that they have that they've inherited, I'm happy to give an opinion because I truly believe in this art form and want these rugs to be appreciated.
Speaker: And so I think...
Speaker: You know, if you're looking at buying rugs, you should find a seller or dealer who is passionate about it, is willing to educate you without making a sale, doesn't pressure you, allows a return policy.
Speaker: But again, I think with the advent of the internet and this whole world of new sellers and rugs,
Speaker: being accessible now, I encourage buyers to take their time to compare prices across shops, right?
Speaker: That's the benefit.
Speaker: If you go into a single gallery in person,
Speaker: your comparison on pricing is just what's in the store.
Speaker: If you're looking online at 9x12 rugs and you see my rug here that I'm showing, you see another seller.
Speaker: If somebody else has a better price, you should be able to ask me, why is yours priced higher or why is yours lower?
Speaker: And again, I don't know if we've boiled it down to this simple equation, but every rug, the price of each rug is really a function of...
Speaker: Well, supply and demand, but more specifically rarity, condition, the size, of course, the materials used.
Speaker: So natural dyes or synthetic dyes, how finely knotted is it?
Speaker: And then the design and desirability.
Speaker: There are some great deals to be had, in my opinion, of rugs that are less popular, but
Speaker: uh, less people want them, you know, because of a certain design style or colors used, but, um, that, you know, the, the opportunities there to get a great deal.
Speaker: If you have a style, it's a little bit different than other people.
Speaker: But, um, yeah, I think that design and desirability is, I encourage buyers to consider for themselves.
Speaker: What do they connect with?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: It's, it's subjective.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: What do you connect with?
Speaker: What do you find beautiful?
Speaker: What works in your home, in your region?
Speaker: But I guess there is also the objective there, right?
Speaker: Like every rug has an objective value based on that rarity.
Speaker: And is this design common?
Speaker: Is it not?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I think that, I don't know if you asked that in this question, but, or a previous one, but the idea of an inherent value of rug versus that enjoyment you get from it.
Speaker: And I encourage people not to discount that.
Speaker: You know, if you have the rug that you're sitting on, that's a nomadic rug that you're ashamed to send me a picture of, but you enjoy it, there's value in that, right?
Speaker: And I will never tell people, like, your rug is terrible, you should throw it away.
Speaker: I'll encourage them and say, like, you know, objectively it's worth $200, but you should keep it because your parents gave it to you and your grandparents had it, or you picked it up at this place and you've had it on your wall through thick and thin through life.
Speaker: The rugs become a part of our stories and our lives because they're so integral to a room.
Speaker: They're lived art.
Speaker: That was kind of my introduction to rugs and what I connected with is it's accessible, it's lived, it's tactile.
Speaker: And so I wouldn't discount that subjective value that listeners have.
Speaker: Well, that's very kind of you.
Speaker: And my poor little rug here really appreciates those words.
Speaker: Thank you for that.
Speaker: Just help us protect ourselves here for a second.
Speaker: What are some of the most common mistakes or traps that buyers fall into?
Speaker: Yeah, I think if a dealer or seller is pressuring you, that's usually a red flag, right?
Speaker: If a rug is sold as a final sale,
Speaker: That's something I would steal, steer away from.
Speaker: Uh, you know, you want the opportunity to try a rug for a few days or a week, uh, and see if it works for you.
Speaker: If it, if it works in the home, if it is all that it's been chalked up to me.
Speaker: Um, I think another, um,
Speaker: misleading.
Speaker: If your listeners were around in the 70s and 80s and even 90s, they might be familiar with the heyday of the rug market where rugs that are now $5,000 or $10,000 might have been $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 and beyond.
Speaker: I think what happened there is 70s and 80s, I think many rugs were sold as an investment.
Speaker: And while that's true in some sense, maybe I'm preaching to the choir here as people here are interested in antiques and you're in the silver space, but while things are an investment, they also...
Speaker: They are meant to be used.
Speaker: Prices might go, I don't think they'll ever go down, but they won't appreciate in the way that many of these sellers were selling.
Speaker: If you buy this $40,000 rug in 20 years, it might be $100,000.
Speaker: That's a bit of a tall tale and, again, a pressure of sales tactic.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so, yeah, I mean, if the dealer thinks that it's going to double in value pretty quickly, then why are they selling it to you?
Speaker: That's a good question.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And like I said, you should be able to ask these sort of questions to your dealer and have a discussion.
Speaker: And, you know, if they make the case, then that's convincing.
Speaker: There might be a case to be made, but generally, right, they would hold on to it in that scenario.
Speaker: What do I need to know about taking care of my rugs?
Speaker: Great question.
Speaker: The standard advice is having your rug washed every three to five years.
Speaker: So taking it to a rug cleaner.
Speaker: It's amazing what these rugs can put up with and how washing them can bring them back to life.
Speaker: But
Speaker: The things you can do at home, vacuuming a rug, you know, these are safe.
Speaker: They are meant, these can be safely vacuumed.
Speaker: They're meant to be used.
Speaker: I would just say avoid using a beater bar, right?
Speaker: That low setting that can suck up the fringe or the selvedge.
Speaker: Use suction across the rug, but vacuum it freely.
Speaker: And then one thing I find...
Speaker: the most effective thing that rug owners can do at home is taking a rug outside, or you can do this in the home if you want, but flipping it over and shaking it or vacuuming the back.
Speaker: And this is actually one step in the process at a rug washing facility where they'll vibrate a rug and release all of the dust and sand that gets trapped between the pile because that
Speaker: grit and sand will create friction and is actually what leads to wear in a rug.
Speaker: Um, so if you take your rug out, vacuum it, um, you'll, when you flip it over, you'll see that there's a bunch of dust left out.
Speaker: And so that will really prolong the life of your rug and, and do wonders, um, to, uh, taking care of it.
Speaker: But beyond that, if you have a stain, uh, you know, if you spill some wine or if you have a pet that, uh,
Speaker: uses your rug as a stopping point in their bathroom or aging journey, just blot it up quickly, remove as much of the stain or liquid as you can.
Speaker: So using rags or towels and remove as much as you can.
Speaker: And then
Speaker: flushing it out with a bit of water and then blotting that up.
Speaker: You can contact a local, you know, if you do have that reputable dealer or an online dealer, if clients ask me these questions, they should be able to guide you and how to do that.
Speaker: But lastly, if you do have a stain and the rug is wet, and if you flush it out, whatever it is, just make sure to lift it off the floor so that it's not sitting and wet for too long.
Speaker: But
Speaker: Wool rugs.
Speaker: Wool is an incredibly stain resistant and durable material.
Speaker: It's rich in lanolin.
Speaker: And so it's amazing what comes out of these rugs when they're washed and taken care of and spot cleaned as needed.
Speaker: If your rug starts to unravel on the sides or on the fringe, have it repaired either by a dealer or even, honestly, I might get in trouble for saying this, if you're handy with a needle and thread, you can do it yourself.
Speaker: A little DIY advice.
Speaker: Yeah, you'll never take a sewing machine to your rug, for the love of God, because you'll...
Speaker: essentially kind of cut your rug along that line.
Speaker: But if you have a needle and thread and you go between the foundation and secure an area that can always be undone when it comes time to repair a rug, but that's, that's a stopgap measure to, um, keep your rug safe in the meantime.
Speaker: Um, so people can, uh,
Speaker: ask me questions about that if they want and follow up or if they have problems with me giving that advice, they can submit those complaints.
Speaker: But I'm sure they will.
Speaker: Most things done by hand can be undone.
Speaker: Okay, last question.
Speaker: What is the deal with all of these rug stores that are constantly advertising going out of business sales?
Speaker: Oh, I feel like somebody should write a book on this or maybe it's material for a dissertation because it's kind of obscure.
Speaker: But I imagine that it has to do with the history of rug sellers in the U.S., right?
Speaker: With many... Well, we won't go down that rabbit hole, but as sellers had...
Speaker: I think Americans love a deal, right?
Speaker: And they love a sale, but they don't, we aren't trained.
Speaker: We're trained so much to look for a deal, but we don't step back and think,
Speaker: were these prices inflated to begin with or before the sale did the did the seller increase their prices and so that's usually what's happening here and so these going out of business sales it's just a tactic to hit on that american temptation toward buying everything at a sale price and so 70 off
Speaker: takes you down to their actual price point.
Speaker: And so you think you're getting a deal and they're going out of business, but they're just going to pop up shop in another part of town or city.
Speaker: As their lease goes up, they find a new space and do this sale and then move to the next spot.
Speaker: And seemingly it's a very effective tactic, but I don't imagine that many of these sellers had returned customers.
Speaker: or that the buyers got great deals in the end, even though they got 70% off.
Speaker: It's amazing how you can be going out of business for decades.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, Jordan Harris, thank you so much for your very helpful advice.
Speaker: I really appreciate your insight into this field.
Speaker: And thanks for sharing this wonderful Karaja rug with us.
Speaker: Again, I hope listeners will take a look at that online or on your Instagram.
Speaker: That, again, is at weftandwool.
Speaker: And I'm sure you wouldn't mind hearing from people who have questions or rugs they want to share with you there.
Speaker: Of course.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Terrific.
Speaker: Well, thank you very much.
Speaker: And listeners, best of luck in your rug hunting adventures.
Speaker: Today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati with social media and web support by Sarah Bellotta.
Speaker: Sierra Holt is our digital media and editorial associate.
Speaker: Our music is by Trap Rabbit and I'm Ben Miller.
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