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Episode 442: Steven Hyden Revisits Springsteen’s ‘Born in the USA’
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Steven Hyden (@steven_hydenwriter) is a music critic for Uproxx, producer of Break Stuff, the podcast about Woodstock 99, story producer for the the documentary Yacht Rock, and the author of Twilight of the Gods, This Isn’t Happening, Hard to Handle, and Long Road. His latest is There Was Nothing You Could Do: Bruce Springtseen’s ‘Born in the USA’ and the End of the Heartland (Hachette Books). For Steven, he keeps his critic brain and his fan brain fully intact. One needs the other.
Gosh, we recorded this back in June, and I’m just about caught up with the really old recordings. In this episode we talk about connections and culture, how a critic has the power to ruin a band or album for you, and losing control of a generational narrative. Really great chat about Pearl Jam, Bruce, and writing a book that provides context to the current time and the era it was forged.
Sponsor: The Power of Narrative Conference. Use CNF15 at checkout for a 15% discount.
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Show notes: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Conference Promotion
00:00:00
Speaker
ACNFers, its official promotional support for the podcast is brought to you by the Power of Narrative Conference, celebrating its 26th year on the last weekend of March 2025, the 28th, and the 29th. Three to 400 journalists from around the world are coming. Keynote speakers include Susan Orlean, Connie Schultz, and Dan Zach.
00:00:22
Speaker
They're all going to deliver the knowledge, man. They're going to bring the heat. Listeners of this podcast can get 15% off your enrollment fee by using the code CNF1515.
00:00:35
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To learn more, visit combeyond.bu.edu and use that CNF15 code. I'll be there. I'll be doing the thing. Yeah, ya boy, B.O. The fan brain and the critic brain, they work together.
Introducing the Guest: Steven Haydn
00:00:56
Speaker
um Oh, hey, it's the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell. I'm Brendan O'Mara. We've got Steven Haydn today at Steven underscore Haydn writer on Instagram.
00:01:14
Speaker
He returns to the show to talk about, there was nothing you could do. Bruce Springsteen's Born in the USA and The End of the Heartland is published by Hatch Head Books. Steven Haydn is a music critic for Uproxx. He's the producer of Break Stuff, the amazing podcast about Woodstock 99. He's a story producer for the documentary Yacht Rock.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yeah, he's the author of Twilight of the Gods. This isn't happening. Heart to Handle and Long Road. And for Steven, he keeps his critic brain and his fan brain fully intact. One needs the other. Gosh, we recorded this back in June.
00:01:59
Speaker
June 2024, and I'm just about caught up with the really old recordings. I've got one more from around that time.
The Role of Critics in Music
00:02:06
Speaker
In this episode, Steven and I talk about connections and culture, how a critic has the power to ruin a band or an album for you, and losing control of a generational narrative.
00:02:16
Speaker
really great chat about Pearl Jam, also the Long Road book, his Bruce book, of course, and writing a book that provides context to the current time in the era it was forged. Show notes to this episode and more at BrendanOmero.com. Hey, there you can find blog post services and you can sign up for the monthly rage against the algorithm newsletter. I raffle off books to active subscribers. Also, there are literally dozens of pending subscriptions. That means you need to confirm. You're signing up since there's that two-step verification thing going on. Anyway, first of the month, no spam. As far as I can tell, you can't beat it. No, no, i you can't definitively beat it. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an interview. I know you're not going to listen to everyone, but subscribing, it doesn't cost you a thing.
00:03:10
Speaker
unless you wanted to because then you can go to patreon dot.com slash cnfpod and it will cost you a thing anyway we got a new rating on apple podcast not sure what the rating was yeah i just noticed there was another one no written review so i can't tell but that's a reminder to leave a kind review and i'll read it right here even a mean one i read a mean one not too long ago i don't care don't give a fuck They validate the show for the way we would see an effort, the kind ones anyway. I have no name recognition or celebrity, you know that. So seeing a bunch of reviews give the show the benefit of that. Bada, bada, bada.
On Writing and Minimalism
00:03:48
Speaker
Parting shot today about minimalism and being a writer, what? and But first, you're in for a great time with Stephen Haydn. Go by. They put it under the tree. There was nothing you could do for the boss fan in your life.
00:04:06
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Here we go. Rift.
00:04:21
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The reception to like break stuff ah continue. It's been a few years since I came out, and that was when we first spoke. But what was the the reaction to that as ah that that series came to a head?
00:04:34
Speaker
The Woodstock? Yeah, yeah. um It did well. I think i think people liked it. um I don't know if we talked about this at the time, but when I pitched it, I thought I was going to be on the w ringer and they ended up putting it in. I can't even remember the name of the service now. Yeah, Luminary. Luminary, that's it. Yeah. I don't even know if they're still around.
00:04:58
Speaker
But that was a little disappointing just because it shrunk the audience, I think, for the show. Oh, for sure. I think it would have had a much bigger impact if it had been on the ringer. but um And it will poke in here already.
00:05:14
Speaker
Break Stuff, the Woodstock 99 epic documentary podcast, if you want to call it that, is with The Ringer now on Spotify. So accessible to more people, and it's awesome. It's true it's so, so good. And you can go back to our previous conversation from several years ago and catch some insights into it from that rodeo. But great stuff and more accessible.
00:05:39
Speaker
I think luminary is still doing their thing, but there was a a Paywall with it and I remember at the time I had to i Get out like a week-long trial and just try to like binge as much of it as I could and then cancel my subscription so I could ah talk intelligently about break stuff as it was I think you know the people that heard it definitely liked it and then I Two years later, the winner actually made a documentary about what's like 99 that I got to be involved in a little bit and just behind the scenes. And then I was interviewed for it too. So that was kind of a cool sequel.
00:06:18
Speaker
to the whole thing. Nice. An overall question about you know being a music critic. And ah this is something I relate to as a sportswriter and how being a sportswriter kind of fundamentally changed my relationship to sports and viewing sports. And I wonder for you just in terms of being a you know a cultural music critic, you know how it fundamentally altered your relationship
Steven Haydn's Music Books and Influences
00:06:42
Speaker
to to music just as a fan, then it becomes kind of your vocation and you have to look at it differently.
00:06:48
Speaker
It's an interesting question. I mean, it's funny because I've in a way been a music critic for almost as long as I've been like a music fan. like I wrote my first record review for my junior high paper in eighth grade. I reviewed automatic for the people by REM and dirt by Alice in Chains. So I was 14 when that happened.
00:07:14
Speaker
By the following year, I was reviewing records for my local newspaper, like the daily newspaper. Obviously it wasn't my full-time job, but I was thinking in those terms already. So I don't know, it's hard for me to say like what I would be like if I didn't write about music. I mean, certainly the thing that being a music critic allows me to do is to listen to music and think about music a lot more.
00:07:44
Speaker
than I would otherwise. And that's true also of writing books. I mean, one of the great things about writing a book about Bruce Springsteen is that it gives you an excuse to dive back into this catalog that I love so much and to listen to bootlegs and to, you know, read all these books where it might be difficult to do that if I wasn't making money doing it. You know, if I had to just focus on what I was doing in my daily job, which is listening to new music. Writing this book, it's like it's in ah it's like a ticket. it's a it's a It's an excuse or whatever to to do these things that I want to do anyway. So I don't know. For me, it always is kind of fed into
00:08:32
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once fed into the other. you know I know some people say, like well, if I think about it too much, I can't enjoy it on the same kind of visceral level that you can as a fan. But I really don't find that to be the case. I think that if you're going to write about music effectively, you have to protect that fan part of yourself. You you you still do have to have emotional reactions to things so or else you're just writing about this from a purely intellectual level. and I don't think that the best writing is ever like that.
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you know For me, it always starts with an emotional reaction and then you try to figure out, well, why do I feel this way? you know why What is prompting this? And that's like when the the critical brain kicks in. But I don't know. To me, they the fan brain and the critic brain, they work together.
00:09:24
Speaker
How many times does it take you to let's say you you got you've got a new album to listen to and you have to write however many words about it. How many times do you need to listen to something to properly properly metabolize it and be able to write
Pearl Jam vs. Nirvana
00:09:40
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about it critically and intellectually. Well you know there's not like a set number. It's not like OK I have to do eight times and then I'm ready to go. You know sometimes you don't have that much time to write.
00:09:52
Speaker
your column because the album came out on a Friday. There was no advance promo of the record and you have to listen to it over the weekend and and write something by like Monday or Tuesday. So you may not have as many listens. mean I think you really have to understand whenever you write about anything that they're there's never going to be the right opinion that you arrive at. you There's never going to be a moment where you're like, aha I get it now.
00:10:23
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That is always evolving. So that thing that you write, it's just a snapshot of how you felt in the moment. And I don't care if you've listened to it three times or 300 times. It's very likely that in a year or two or five or 10 years that you're not going to feel the exact same way that you did when you wrote that thing.
00:10:49
Speaker
And I think that's okay. You know, I mean, there is no such thing. I think as a definitive opinion, even for yourself, I mean, it's natural for things to settle in over time. You know, yeah if you have more time with an album, you have a relationship with it, you kind of figure out like, okay, this is how I feel about it. You know, it's funny, I just wrote something about my best albums of 2010 list that I did for the AV club, you know, years ago. And like the number one album on that list I hadn't listened to in like over 10 years. yeah And i when I revisited it, I thought it was okay, but I didn't love it. you know But does that mean I was wrong in 2010? Not really. I mean, because when I wrote it, that's how I felt. It was a reflection of my life at that moment. So it was right. It was right in 2010. It's just that I don't feel the same way now. So again, I just think if you're someone who kind of puts yourself out there,
00:11:49
Speaker
You have to accept that you are in a constant state of evolution and no matter what you write, no matter how well prepared you are, there's a good chance that's going to change and you're going to disagree with yourself somewhere down the line.
Writing and Publishing Insights
00:12:02
Speaker
Regarding books like the the year you know you just your most recent ones on Pearl Jam and Springsteen and specifically ah Pearl Jam's more career than the Springsteen's born in the USA and you know what and what that came to symbolize. when When you're coming to write a book of this nature, you know what what does the research and the reporting look like and how does that operate, you know curating that information where you're finding it, who you're talking to and how you formulate it?
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think with the books I write, obviously there is the, uh, there's like the primary material, which is like the, the, the records themselves. Like you're listening to that stuff and you're diving in and and, you know, there may be a biography of the band or there might be like magazine articles, you know, you're diving and all that stuff, all the kind of basic biographical information. Like for me, you know, like I'm a music critic and I, and I feel like one of the things that critics do is put a work of art and a,
00:13:00
Speaker
larger context. So you're not just talking about that album or that film or whatever, you're talking about the world around whatever it is you're writing about. So that means what's going on culturally, what's going on politically, what's going on in like other areas of like that field, which in this case is rock music.
00:13:21
Speaker
and I
Cultural Impact of 'Born in the USA'
00:13:23
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think that is what takes sort of a critical review beyond just sort of a simple like Wikipedia type entry. you know Because look, with Bruce, it's very easy to find out like how he made Born in the USA. I mean, you you can look that up and Google it. That information isn't hard to find. What I hope that this book provides is a certain perspective on the record that maybe hasn't been shared before, where you are getting a sense of like,
00:13:51
Speaker
where he came from when he was making this record and where he went afterward and what else was going on in music around him and how music changed after this record came out and what was going on in America and how America changed. You know, more of a bird's eye view of the record. I think that's true of the books I write. It's what I aspire to do. And I think ultimately you just have to keep your antenna up, you know, because you're really looking for things that aren't just again, part of the biography of the record, things that kind of go beyond that and maybe are connected to the record, but in a way that people might not otherwise recognize. I mean, that's the thing I'm always looking for. So like in this book, for instance, you know I knew going in that Bruce got the album title from a screenplay by Paul Schrader, the great screenwriter and director.
00:14:46
Speaker
Well, how do Paul Schrader's films link up with Bruce Springsteen's albums? And digging into it, I thought there's actually quite a few parallels thematically between what Paul Schrader was doing in the late 70s and early 80s and what Bruce was doing. So that becomes a thing to write about her.
00:15:02
Speaker
writing about how CCR influenced Bruce and how that informed Born in the USA, you know, things like that. And that's the stuff that excites me when I'm writing a book, you know, finding those connections in culture and and and just telling a story that's that's about more than just like one record, but is, you know, maybe ah ah like a grander story, you know, that can give people a new perspective on on what it is you're writing about.
00:15:31
Speaker
Right. I love that you bring in kind of the the influence, let's say, that informed born in the USA and no creative person or band or whatever it is isolated or even 100 percent original. Like there is a family tree that they descend from.
00:15:50
Speaker
And I wonder, just get a a slight tweak on that. like If we you know pivot to writers that and books that inspired you, what what are some of the the family tree that helped inform you as as a writer and you know for the kind of books that you take on? A big book for me.
00:16:08
Speaker
in terms of like music writing or culture writing when I was growing up was Mystery Train by Grill Marcus, which for those who don't know, it's this collection of essays where he's writing about artists like the band, Randy Newman, Sly Stone, Elvis Presley. And it's this book about American music, but he's really using music writing as a vehicle to talk about a lot of other things. He's really digging into like American history and drawing
Embracing Minimalism and Conclusion
00:16:40
Speaker
connections between these different artists. And it was such a mind blowing book for me growing up because I realized that you could use music writing as a vehicle to talk about anything.
00:16:49
Speaker
you know You could start with a record, but then you could end up talking about the Gettysburg Address or something or whatever the case may be. And as long as you could make the case and you're writing for this being valid, you you you can pull it off. It doesn't matter if it's something that wouldn't be obvious to anyone else before they read this book.
00:17:12
Speaker
So that was very inspiring to me as as a young writer and certainly something that I aspire to and probably still aspire to. So that was a big one. I mean, I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge, you know, people like Chuck Closterman and Rob Sheffield, who I think kind of invented the sort of books that I write. I mean, in terms of taking that widescreen approach, but then writing in a very kind of conversational, often comedic style, but also like with a lot of heart at the same time. yeah um I mean, I think Rob's book, Dreaming the Beatles, I always end up looking at that a little bit, like when I'm working on a book. I feel like that format is something that has definitely informed what I do.
00:17:59
Speaker
Um, I also have to give a shout out to Ellen Willis, who I think is one of the great rock critics of all time. And she doesn't really get mentioned as much as like Lester bangs or, you know, grill Marcus, who I said before, but I think she is definitely in the same class of writers. I mean, one of the first, ah the the first epigraph in in the springsteen book is from Ellen Willis, something she wrote about creating this Clearwater revival and the roll Rolling Stone illustrated a history of of rock and roll.
00:18:29
Speaker
She's a great writer, and she's a writer that like you can read her stuff from the 70s, and it feels like someone wrote it last week. She has a very contemporary voice, unlike someone like Lester Banks, who I love. But he is very much rooted in the 70s. I mean, if you wrote like Lester Banks now,
00:18:49
Speaker
people would accuse you of being like a Lester Banks impersonator. I mean, there's you know, this is how slangy he is and like how that kind of like hepped up beat poetry type of writing. I mean, it just, it's great when he does it, but it doesn't translate to a modern voice at all. Whereas Ellen Willis, I think totally does. ah So those writers come to mind in terms of like music writing, for sure, for me.
00:19:15
Speaker
Awesome. yeah and ah yeah bring Speaking of Chuck, you know in his his recent book being the 90s, a book, 90s is something of our wheelhouse. You're just a couple years older than I am. ah you know like My middle school and high school years are fully enveloped in the 90s.
00:19:33
Speaker
And the 90s are kind of having yeah of their moment, so to speak. It's been 30 years since 25, 30 years since that decade. So now there's that that cultural remove where you can really critically analyze it. So what does that mean to you as a as a Gen Xer to be able to have the have this 90s moment to be able to lock into? Well, you know, it's interesting where as you get older, you realize that you don't have control over your own past.
00:20:03
Speaker
that there's a younger generation that comes along that is going to look at the culture that you grew up with and they're going to have their own opinions on it. And they're going to decide what bands are better than other bands. And sometimes they're going to pick bands that you thought were not that great. And they're going to decide, oh, these are these are the best bands of that generation. Yeah. And, you know, like you see with the 90s now, like where People love Sublime. They love No Doubt. They love Third Eye Blind. I mean, these are the bands that I hear younger people talking about much more so than like Modest Mouse or Bill to Spill. Although Bill to Spill gets a lot of love, I think, from younger people. But yeah so that's a little weird sometimes to see that happen. But, you know, I'm also a person who has written about bands from the 60s and 70s.
00:20:59
Speaker
And sometimes the bands that people my age love are not the bands that the people who grew up with those bands love but or they don't like certain albums that people my age love. um I mean, I'm a big Bob Dylan fan and there's people my age are like, oh, I love street legal and I love infidels. And, you know, I love all these albums that critics at the time sort of ah shrugged off.
00:21:24
Speaker
So, you know, people my age have done it to the boomers and now people, uh, you know, millennials or zoomers, whatever, they're doing it to the Gen Xers. So that's just part of the circle of life, I guess. I mean, these things happen, but that is a fascinating thing to me. You know, when you see your own past, it's like, Oh yeah, I don't have control of this narrative anymore. You know, ah someone else's someone who wasn't there.
00:21:51
Speaker
They're in control of the narrative. they They outnumber people my age so they can decide that. And you just have to accept that. That's just the way it is. Yeah, I love how you write in Long Road. ah The pathology of my generation is that we hate ourselves and anything we see ourselves in. And few things about the 90s seem more universally us than Pearl Jam. Right. Yeah, yeah exactly. And and how you know like Pearl Jam is a band that I don't see translating to younger audiences. I mean, they were so hugely important in the 90s compared to like Nirvana or something. I see Nirvana t-shirts all the time. I mean, it's like when people my age were wearing Beatles shirts in the 90s and you still see people wearing Beatles shirts now, obviously. but
00:22:42
Speaker
Nirvana has just totally overwhelmed like most of the rock bands, I feel like, of the 90s. I mean, like like that is the band. And then everyone else is sort of overlooked. But it totally makes sense. I mean, Nirvana is a great band. I love Nirvana. And they also just have an incredible story that's very romantic. So in a very kind of dark and tragic way, of course. but Uh, in music, those are often the most romantic stories, the most tragic ones. Oh, for sure. Yeah. There, there are moments where you write, uh, that, you know, how certain, uh, certain music kind of locks you into a certain time in your life. And, you know, as good as say an album, like versus is like it right around that time when it came out, whatever it was, 92 or 93, you know, I was just in the,
00:23:38
Speaker
early middle school, and I have like such a profound distaste for those years. right and And Daughter was so overly played on the radio, as was the live version of the Eagles Hotel California and like Meat Loaf at the time. it was and So when I hear those songs, I get like, it's like so depressed when I hear them, even though they're like, you know, they're good song is made speaking with Pearl Jam, which is more of a band of my taste. But it's just like one of those things like I can't appreciate that song because it just sends me into like this black pit of teenage angst. Yeah. And I think, you know, Eddie Vedder's voice became.
00:24:16
Speaker
a genre onto itself in the 90s. There were so many people that adopted that voice and they they yal they really exaggerated it and it became ah like a cliche for shitty rock bands to have a singer that sounded like that. And that obviously ends up blowing back on Pearl Jam. Just the, ah and I say this with love because I love the band, but there is like a histrionic aspect to certainly those early Pearl Jam songs, like the emotional ah expression in those songs. It's very ah big and operatic. And there are no musicians really that express themselves that way. This is a very kind of restrained time. I mean, there's so many people that are writing about their feelings and depression and darkness and all that. But in terms of the delivery,
00:25:09
Speaker
it's like relatively restrained. I mean, you know, like guitars are not as loud. People don't really scream as much as they did in the 90s. They're more likely to whisper their vocal than they are to scream it at this point. So a lot of like what Pearl Jam does, it's just out of fashion. And it's in a way the opposite of like the way music is now. So I don't know, maybe that'll turn at some point. I'll be curious to see. but Yeah, they're they're pretty locked into that time, even though they've transcended it, I think, in a lot of ways. Yeah, oh, for sure. And there's there's a moment in the book, too, where you write about this ah this idea of a comeback album and a we're back album. And I love that that idea, that concept. And there is a distinct dichotomy. And rarely do the two completely overlap. But as one maybe you can expand on that and ah you know of what what the two mean. Yeah, well, you know, in in Long Road, I talk about, yeah, comeback album versus we're back album, a comeback album being ah an album that.
00:26:12
Speaker
re-establishes an artist in the culture. You know, people are like, oh, this is a great record. ah You know, your best album since yada, yada, yada. And then there's the We're Back record, which is kind of like a comeback record, but it's really like where you're trying to remind people of the records that they loved a long time ago. And it's really an opportunity to like tee up a tour, you know, more than like have an album onto itself be a major moment. And I think most bands end up doing the We're Back record, you know, where you hear a song on the radio or on the streaming service and you're like, oh yeah, that kind of reminds me of a song that they did when I really loved this band. And it's not as good, but like, it reminds me why I liked this band. Maybe I'm gonna go buy a concert ticket. That's probably closer to like what the last Pearl Jam record was.
00:27:12
Speaker
than a comeback record, although i I like that record that they did, A Dark Matter. um But it is probably more like a wear back record than a full on comeback album. I mean, Bruce Springsteen, to his credit, I think has made pretty different records as he's gotten older. They're not all successful um artistically, but he's not really evoking like any specific era from his past on his 21st century records. you know there yeah I mean, Letter her to You, his most recent studio record of original material, he had that soul covers record that came out afterward, but Letter to You has some older songs on it that he took out of the vaults and re-recorded. Some of those songs sound like 70s songs because they are from the 70s,
00:28:09
Speaker
I don't know. He's not doing like a overt homage to like born to run or born in the USA or anything like that. So, you know, I think he has been pretty thoughtful about not just sort of regurgitating things that people associate with him.
00:28:30
Speaker
Well, it's kind of like what you write at some point in the book. I don't forget exactly where, but it's where Bruce are more or less articulated that you know he sees his life, but also his music as a as an unfolding of his ongoing story. And an album is like a a slice of where he is at that time in his continuum. So it stands to reason that it'll grow and reflect who he is at that moment. Right. I mean, he's had an interesting later career because I don't think he's quite made a record that is as acclaimed as like what Bob Dylan has done. you know I feel like he's put out a couple records that really have kind of reset like how people think of him in the last 25 years. And I don't know if Bruce has done that necessarily. He hasn't put out like a masterpiece. But I also feel like his records are all like generally like pretty good to really good.
00:29:27
Speaker
I don't know. It's an interesting place to be, you know, maybe that maybe people are taking those records for granted a little bit. I don't know. But I mean, I often hear people say like, Oh, when's Bruce going to make a really great record? i like god he I think he's made like some pretty strong albums. But yeah, he hasn't like totally hit it out of the park, maybe this century.
00:29:49
Speaker
with with your book coming out the way it is in the anniversary of ah born in the USA like that was an election year like now we're in ah an election year and it well let this be the moment if you are already aware of it that the election has since passed and this interview took place oh in June so the election year was ramping up as they say And here we are. It feels like a ah really good time for you hat to have done this this deep dive on it and you know the bridging of those 40 years and kind of ah where we where we were then and where we are now. So it's like the the timing of it seems very apropos. Yeah, yeah and that was certainly that kind of fed into me wanting to write about that stuff. I just felt like born in the USA, it's an interesting time in his career, you know how that record intersects with Nebraska, as well as all the other writing he was doing at that time. i mean he was a very It was a very productive period for him, songwriting-wise. and Then again, just like these broader you know the broader context of of talking about
00:31:04
Speaker
what does this album say about the country? What does it represent about like rock music and like how things have just evolved in the past 40 years? it i I knew that there would not be a shortage of things to write about heading into this book.
00:31:18
Speaker
Yeah, and yeah a little while ago, you talked about you know part of your, ah for lack of a better term, and please excuse this term, a brand of create know criticism and you know your your style, is drawing in a lot of this intellectual and cultural stuff, but also with the personal. And Born in the born in the USA is a very personal record for you, and it's when you heard you know that tape in you you know in your dad's car's tape deck. And ah just maybe like ah put us in that moment of what it was like you know, for, you know, your, your world was like really rocked at that time as a six year old kid. Yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, at the beginning of the book, I read about hearing this tape in my dad's car born the USA tape summer of 84 when that album comes out and I'm six years old. And, you know, it's always tricky when you're writing about
00:32:06
Speaker
yourself as a kid because you don't want to project too much onto yourself at that age. yeah you know You don't want to be like, oh, I heard this song and then I understood the malaise in America after Vietnam and difficulties of trickle down economics and yeah you know all these things that obviously didn't occur to me when I was six years old. I mean, I heard the tape and I love the drums and the synthesizer was cool and this guy yelling over the music you know compelled me or all that stuff. um But it is interesting with you know writing this book and you know you have a lot of opportunity to kind of meditate on the album and your own experience with it. i mean i've This is possibly the album I've loved the longest in my life. i mean
00:32:53
Speaker
This album, Michael Jackson's Thriller, I mean, kind of around the same time. I mean, those were the first records that I even knew or I was aware of as records. So I have a long history with the album. And you know one thing I think I realized about myself is that not only am I a fan of Bruce Springsteen, but I feel like in terms of like my worldview that he's been really influential on me. The idea, which I think is at the core of his music of being empathetic to people, even if they don't come from the same ideology or the same background or or whatever it is that
00:33:32
Speaker
you still believe in sort of the basic decency of people. and And no matter how much you might disagree on everything else, there's like these core ideas that link people together. and And it's like the human community. Like we all want to be loved. We all want to feel like we're respected and and appreciated. ah We all have the same core needs and and you know requirements to live.
00:33:59
Speaker
And this idea of like one America, you know, that we, for all of our disagreements, we're still part of the same community and we're still linked in some way. and And those are things that I believe in. And one thing I wrestle with in the book is coming to terms with that a little bit, because there is another way to look at things, which is that we're not a community, that there isn't one America, that there's like hundreds of different Americas, and maybe there isn't a way to bridge the divide, you know, because we aren't fundamentally linked, you know, the more kind of pessimistic view of looking at things.
00:34:37
Speaker
which frankly in the modern era feels more realistic than this kind of idealistic dream of America that Bruce Springsteen writes about. So I thought that was a really interesting thing to to to address and I feel like that's probably a common issue that people are working through you know in in the modern times.
00:34:57
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And you you write that, especially at the time in the mid 80s, that the middle, something that we could all agree on, I guess, at that time, like the middle was Bruce. and Yeah. And he could write a protest song, but it sounds kind of happy. And it's like he's able to write about something that can get misinterpreted. And and in so doing, it does create an 80,000 seat arena where everyone is agreeing on one thing, and that is the little man in the middle of the stage. Yeah, and and and and just to you know be totally clear, I mean, there is no such thing as something that everyone agrees on. you know Where we're too wide and broad of a group of people to have that type of you know total agreement. But it's the idea of that. It's the idea that there is a mythical middle in the country that people are welcome to come to if they so choose.
00:35:57
Speaker
and born in the USA was one of the things that kind of represented that idea, I think, in the mid 80s. And pondering that now 40 years later at a time when it feels like people don't even subscribe to that idea anymore. you know That's not an idea that people find attractive at all.
00:36:19
Speaker
for for good reason. I mean, you know, there's been a lot of crazy things that have happened to discourage people from from feeling that way. But, you know, just looking at that idea maybe fading over the course of 40 years, losing relevance. um When for me, it just seemed like something that was like a core part of like how you thought about the country like when you would if you were growing up in that time like that's just the way it was supposed to be and ah kind of feeling like oh how relevant is this kind of idea or this thought and I don't know the answer to that but it's something that I'm trying to figure out I think in the book.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah. And you know, you write to how you are really fascinated with the the depressed early 1983 L.A. Bruce. And i maybe you can just take us to that Bruce and what was ah so arresting about him, at least in your mind. Yeah. So, you know, Bruce, the you know the story of this record, of course, is that, you know, Bruce starts writing songs at his home in New Jersey in late 81.
00:37:28
Speaker
And some of those songs end up becoming what was later released as Nebraska, this collection of essentially demos that Bruce was playing on acoustic guitar, very downbeat, very ghostly, very stripped down. And then at the same time, as he's preparing Nebraska, he's also recording these songs with the E Street Band. And those are the songs that end up on born in the USA.
00:37:55
Speaker
the opposite of Nebraska, fair to say, big rock band type songs, more in line with what people were looking for, commercially from Bruce certainly at that time. And, you know, with Born in the USA, he ends up recording the bulk of the album pretty early on, like in, you know, the spring and I guess like late winter and spring of 82. But he's going through like a lot of ambivalent feelings about whether he actually wants to make a record like Born in the USA.
00:38:25
Speaker
And he takes a lot of time to think about it. And in the process, he starts writing more songs. He doesn't really need more songs. He's got plenty of songs already. But he keeps writing. and this period that you allude to that I write in the book is when Bruce was at his home in Los Angeles in early 83, and he was writing these songs that were kind of a hybrid of Nebraska and born in the USA. He's recording by himself like he did with Nebraska, but he's adding more instrumentation. There's some synthesizer pads, there's some guitar.
00:39:03
Speaker
was a drum machine. And he's just writing a like a lot of these sort of like ghostly, rockabilly, tinged songs that didn't end up on the record, but in a way it was like him procrastinating working on the record. There's a lot of those songs that I that i quite love.
00:39:23
Speaker
that are only available on bootleg, but it's just another turn that he took at this time, which, if you only know the albums, you might not have known that this happened. But he did record like ah almost like another album's worth of songs, essentially, at this time. um But it was, in a weird way, a way to procrastinate on finishing Born in the USA.
00:39:47
Speaker
it's ah You also write that ah the tape sounded like, this is when you were listening to it as a kid, ah that it sounded like the beginning of something. And you're like, but it wasn't. It was the harbinger of the end. And the end is where we are now. So where are we now as as it regards to how you first heard that that tape and your subsequent hundreds of listening to it? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think what I what i meant there was is that, one, a record like Born in the USA,
00:40:16
Speaker
having that kind of impact, it doesn't feel like something that would happen now. Just in terms of that kind of singer-songwriter rock star person becoming that successful. I just don't think that we're in a moment now where the culture would want.
00:40:33
Speaker
that to the same degree that it wanted Bruce in the mid-80s. So that feels like an ending there. And then I think also just going back to what I've been so talking about, what that album represented maybe culturally and politically, you know this site this idea of an idealized heartland, which I'm writing about you know I mentioned that in the subtitle of the book. It's not really about like the literal middle of the country. It's, again, this idea, this metaphor of like what the heartland is supposed to mean, which to me, it means the America where people come together and work together and signify something about the spirit of the country. And I think that metaphor does feel like it's, if it's not over, it feels like it's been greatly diminished.
00:41:27
Speaker
And I feel like writing about this album in the aftermath of it is also a way of tracing that deterioration of that idea. So that's something I think I'm going for in the book.
00:41:38
Speaker
Was it that deterioration of the idea of this um the symbolic heartland? Did that come first and you were like, oh, oh but wait, there's this album that has a significant anniversary that can speak to it? or definitely Definitely the album. Definitely wanted to write about the album. But also, I mean, they were also simultaneous. I mean, I just felt like, you know, I wrote a book a few years ago about Kid A, ah the Radiohead album. And that is a similar more thing where I felt like This is a great album. and It's very you know sort of impactful on music history. But it also arrived at a moment where it was the beginning of a new century. And it was also the beginning of the internet starting to have a tangible effect on how we all live. So it just seemed natural in my mind to connect Kid A to that stuff.
00:42:36
Speaker
in the same way that it was natural in my mind to take Born in the USA and also connect it to America and rock music. Again, I didn't set out to write a book about America. I set out to write a book about Born in the USA. But the other stuff, I think, I mean, I had to think about it more obviously, but the general thrust of it, I definitely, it felt pretty simultaneous to me.
00:43:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think of that, too, where, you know, you've got to draw up your book proposal and you're like, yeah, I want to write about Born in the USA. but It's like, OK, well, so what? You know, so what you know, what is that central question? Like, OK, here's this album from 40 years ago. But like, what are you really trying to get at?
00:43:17
Speaker
Yeah. And was that a question you really had to kind of like, yeah for lack of a better term, but like really meditate on to kind of flesh out what's going to be the through line to carry us through 250 pages or roughly, you know, whatever, 90,000 words? I had it pretty well mapped out in the proposal. I'm also in a lucky situation where I've had the same publisher now for This is the fourth book I've done with them. And I've had the same editor but with and same editor for four books. So like they know me. And I yeah ah can't just give them like one sentence or something. But like the I don't have to go quite as fleshed out as I did when I first started. I think they know what I do and the kinds of books I write. so
00:44:04
Speaker
Yeah, that's great. Your body of work is really like, oh, yeah, yeah like you've stuck the landing on this a few times. yeah Just give us kind of ah yeah give us a thousand-word treatment, and we're probably good. Well, and I think, frankly, they saw Bruce Springsteen, and they thought, OK, we can sell a book on Bruce Springsteen. yeah yeah So that I think they had a lot to do with it. And they probably felt like, oh, i I'm sure it probably seemed like a book that I could execute to them. um you know If I pitched something else, maybe they would be like, ah maybe you're not the right guy for that. but
00:44:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think it was. Oh, Bruce Springsteen has a lot of fans. They probably buy books. So yeah, we'll do it. Yeah. Well, that's a choice. yeah That's the the business decision a writer has to make about the commerciality of a topic like you could write about probably as as deep on like pavement. But you know right there. But you know, you're you're probably should be like, yeah, I don't know. Is there ah is there ah is there a Bruce book or a Michael Jackson book in you? Because Yeah, let's let's look at the audience share here. Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's part of the calculus of of of pitching a book. I mean, there's a lot of things I'm interested in.
00:45:17
Speaker
So you start with that and then you think, well, what do I think I'm qualified to write? So that shrinks the list quite a bit. And then the third step is, what do I think I can sell to my publisher? And that tends to narrow it down to like a handful of ideas and then you go from there. So it's always something you wanna do, but it is one of the more, yeah, commercially viable things that you can do.
00:45:44
Speaker
So yeah, I think everyone goes through that. ah on some level, you know like when you're selling something. It's ah it's a fun thing. And you and you know you also, if you're going to spend a lot of time on a book, you do want people to read it. You you do want to know that, OK, this is going to resonate with an audience, or at least have a feeling that it might. so ah Because you spend so much time on this. Yeah. And again, you only have so much time to write you know in your life. so
00:46:16
Speaker
It's just something that kind of helps you pick what your project would be. Because again, there's like lots of things I could write, I think. But it's kind of nice to have some sort of limit on what you're going to do, like or the pointing you in a direction that ah will work.
00:46:34
Speaker
Yeah, and ah there's a moment in the book, too, where you where you cite this. um ah John Phillips, who runs his website, Backstreet, is kind of like an online fanzine for Springsteen fans. And ah and you're right that he never quite states it directly. But what he's suggesting is that Born in the USA created the first generation gap in Bruce's fan base. And I love that, of a long-standing, long-tenured artist. And even Bruce at the time was was at it for ah in the neighborhood of a dozen years or so, give or take.
00:47:03
Speaker
And that album right there, even at that point in his career, created you know a fissure that a lot of these long term bands will experience at some point or another. Yeah, if they're lucky. Yeah. You know, a lot of bands don't get beyond their initial fan base. Like they have that original group and that's who they are with for their entire career. And then you have someone like Bruce Springsteen who on his seventh album, which is a pretty unusual thing, that ends up being the biggest record of his career. And all of a sudden you have people like me, little kids in the fold.
00:47:37
Speaker
or you have lots you have like teenage girls or you you know whatever it is, ah they come in and yeah there's going to be some tension with people that were there at the start. let's see what oh you you know you had brought up when you talked about kid a and you' were like as the internet is starting to move into the picture there's this idea that you you broach in the Bruce book and you write like MTV was like Spotify only you couldn't control what you heard you had no choice but to listen to whatever MTV curated for you which means MTV was more powerful than Spotify and ah it's it's such a good point and I i read ah for for you as as as a critic and a consumer of this kind of stuff
00:48:17
Speaker
you know Who would you rather help you find new music, yeah the algorithm or the ah the esteemed critic? um i mean They both have their place. i mean I've found stuff from algorithms, um sure but I've also found things from from reading things. so I don't know if I have a preference. i mean It really depends on the individual instance. um you know And then there's like people that are neither critics nor algorithms. They're just regular people that you see talking about stuff online, you know word of mouth from just music fans. I mean, that's a great way to discover things too. So yeah, I don't know. I don't really and think all those things work together. you know It's hard to say one's better than the other.
00:49:03
Speaker
i mean I wouldn't want it just to be algorithms. I mean, I think that would be a sad state of affairs. I do like the human element, but I'd be lying if I said I never discovered a song I liked because I was listening to Spotify and then a song came on after the song I picked.
00:49:23
Speaker
you know, but because they're just playing songs they don't like the song I just played. I've definitely found stuff that I've never heard that I thought was pretty cool that way. Yeah, when I was talking to Harvilla for the second time of several weeks ago at this point, well actually no, it was right when his book came out, but I didn't run the episode for a few months after.
00:49:43
Speaker
neither here nor there but he I remember when he did his 60 songs that explained the 90s episode on Metallica and Enter Sandman and he described Lars Ulrich's drumming as like falling down the stairs and to me is hilarious but it also fundamentally changed how I heard their music and I almost can't hear his drumming or hear their songs anymore without picturing like Bugs Bunny falling down the stairs or something like that in a And in a weird way, but not entirely, it's like he kind of, I'm not going to say ruined, but I'll use that word. It's like he kind of ruined his ah lot Lars' is drumming for me in a way, and Lars' drumming is ah ah fire as a lightning rod online. but
00:50:25
Speaker
It's I wonder just ah for you just as a consumer of music and music criticism being a critic yourself have you experienced that where you've read something you're like oh man that uh that kind of fucked with my relationship with this band that I I don't like I'm not sure I like that yeah I mean not lately I can't I I would say I mean I think when I was younger that would happen sometimes where I like something and then you'd read a review where they didn't like it as much as I did and then it kind of made me like it less. yeah But I don't know, that hasn't happened to me lately. I mean, to be honest, I don't read a lot of music writing anymore because the thing you, if you've been doing it ah long enough, you start to see the same arguments being recycled over and over again and like the same conversations happening over and over again.
00:51:16
Speaker
And it's just not as interesting at some point. So um I'm much more sort of in my own head, I think, with a lot of this stuff now. I mean, I come on social media, so like i I'll see people talking about certain things. But I don't know. i I don't have things ruined like that for me anymore. I think I'm beyond that at this point.
00:51:39
Speaker
Yeah. Well, that makes sense. It definitely speaks to you like, yeah, if you like something, it's like no one else is going to be able to tell you otherwise. You're like, I like this. I don't care if yeah think Rob thinks Lars is drumming. It's like someone falling down the stairs. I mean, I got to say, like I don't seek out ah other people's music opinions that much anymore. As much as I write about music, I don't I don't really seek it out. and like I don't listen to music podcasts ever. I don't read a lot of music writing. i just don't I'm not that interested in other people's opinions on music. I don't know what that says about me, but like i'm I'm honestly not. so you know i'm i'm like I only care about my opinion. i don't That's such a middle-aged guy thing to say, but I think that's true.
00:52:28
Speaker
Yeah, well I totally understand where you're coming from in a sense because you would at some point or another like whether it be it you're being a writer or a podcaster you need to maybe listen to a lot of interviews and read a lot of writing to formulate your own voice and And at some point, yeah I don't listen to many interview podcasts, especially ones that are kind of in my sphere, or especially people who are kind of like me. ah and um And so, because I just want to, I don't want to be too influenced by other people and have, you know, I want to stay, follow my taste and what serves these listeners. And I feel like I have a pretty good view handle on that.
00:53:06
Speaker
And I don't want any sort of outside pollution into that into my taste that ah would steer me or make me go askew. Plus, I get jealous very easily, so I don't like to fire up those hackles. Yeah, maybe so. I don't know. i'm just A lot of times, I just don't care. ah just I think I just don't...
00:53:28
Speaker
care at all about it. you know like I'll look at scores or ratings people give, because I'm just maybe curious about, where's the consensus here? But yeah, I don't know. With music opinions, like i I really don't seek them out, like I do for other things. i can I can consume sports discourse all the time, no matter how terrible it is. But like music discourse, I tend to avoid.
00:53:53
Speaker
unless i want to make unless I want to make fun of it, then I'll i'll i'll pay attention. But yeah I don't know. Well, especially if you'll read ah any rock criticism, it's it's always the same adjectives, you know, just thundering and, i boughted that kind of stuff you know, You know, people make fun of critics for that. I actually, because there aren't that many words to use. like I know. I'm more forgiving of that than a lot of people. It's more I just don't care what other people think about it. ah it's not It's not even like I don't like the writing. I just don't care. you know I'm not that interested in other people's opinions on on things. I mean, I think that's it. And as weird as that is to say, it's just where I'm at. It's like no offense to them. I'm just like, I kind of care what I think, and I don't really care what anyone else thinks. So I tend i prefer to think of that as being liberated. i'm like Because there's so much noise in the world anyway. yeah It's nice to limit it.
00:54:51
Speaker
So yeah. Oh, I like that. Yeah. Oh, for sure. no Yeah. Yeah. And towards the end of the Bruce book, you you know, you wrote ah for better or worse against my will, even I remain an eternal optimist. And I wonder just how have you remained optimistic these days? And maybe how does maybe how does Bruce help ah in in your eternal optimism?
00:55:15
Speaker
Well, you know, like that, that passage comes in the context of this idea of like, you know, again, what I was saying before about like, is there one America? Is there like one idea of of like who we are as a country and are we a community of people who are maybe dramatically different in every other way, but there's there's there's these sort of core attributes that make us Americans. And the optimistic part of me says, yes, there is. And I think that comes from Bruce Springsteen. I think that that was something that was embedded in me by his songs at a very early age. But again, clearly, if you look at the world today, there's a lot of evidence to
00:55:52
Speaker
dispute that and a lot of reason not to believe that. Again, the book I think is wrestling with that idea and and kind of trying to figure out like where I stand on that. And I'm not really sure where I stand. It's still something I think about, but I you know i think that's a probably something a lot of people ponder.
00:56:12
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Towards the end of the book, you know, when you are leaving a Springsteen show and you're like outside the arena, the dream disappeared and all you had were the broken pieces of America. So that's kind of a bleak side to the other side of that coin. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a feeling, you know, like when you're at a show and you have that feeling where you could hug the person next to you because you feel like, oh, we're together here. We were we're sharing this experience.
00:56:41
Speaker
Once the music ends, you're never going to hug that person. you know like There's something that gets shattered instantly when the illusion of a magical show ends. Yeah, that's what I was trying to get across, I think, in that section.
00:56:54
Speaker
And I'm someone I like. I love Bruce, but I'm not the I'm not like the biggest Springsteen fan in the world. And ah yeah I've been to two shows while wrecking ball tour era ah around that time. And I love and admire the guy. ah And it's ah the the book I just found, you know, fascinated, even fascinating, even though I didn't I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge of the catalog. And it's I think that's just a testament to your capacity as ah as a writer to really Pull someone through who is more of a fair weather instead of a die-hard. So it's just like really a wonderful book Steven. Well, thank you so much Yeah, that's always my hope you know that whether you love Bruce or you're more of a casual fan that you can Still feel engaged with with the book. So that that's good to hear. Thank you very much
00:57:43
Speaker
Oh, for sure. And ah Stephen, as I like to bring these conversations down for a landing, I always ask the guests for just ah a fun recommendation of some kind for the listeners. And that's just anything that's bringing you joy, be it ah and a new album or a brand of coffee you like or you know ah a walk outside. It doesn't really matter. It's just anything that's exciting you that you might want to share with the listeners.
00:58:04
Speaker
um I'll go with a walk outside. I i walk every day. I'll probably get a walk after this interview. So that's a good mental health and physical health activity taking a walk. So yeah, definitely definitely do that if you can. Fantastic. Well, Steven, this was wonderful to to to catch up again and talk after a few years and i yeah dive into The Boss and this wonderful book you've written. So just thanks for the time and thanks for the work. Yeah, thank you.
00:58:34
Speaker
Yeah, awesome. Thanks to Steven for coming back on the show. It's been a long time. I'm sure he forgot he even recorded this. It's been so long. Name of the book again is there was nothing you could do. Great book. So is the long road. The Pearl Jam book. Dig it, man. Thanks to the algorithm. It fed me the YouTube algorithm, especially keen. Fed me this Japanese YouTuber named Aki. Serious minimalist and kind of a joyful, Young man, his videos make me happy, okay? I'm not afraid to admit it. He basically vlogs about how he adheres to a minimalist lifestyle, which greatly appeals to me. Always has.
00:59:17
Speaker
As someone who has neared debilitating ADHD and accumulates clutter like dust, the idea of getting rid of things has great appeal for me. The fewer things you have, the less you're able to fuck things up. I routinely donate books, dozens and dozens a year. Papers and notebooks are a problem. ah My wife and I have watched Tiny House Nation for years and we long for that kind of lifestyle.
00:59:45
Speaker
Maybe even have a tiny home of our own and up the Mackenzie River as a getaway cabin. you know With the constraint of tiny living, you can't accumulate things. I hate things. Things stress me out. My blood pressure today was 148 over 94, so things are going well.
01:00:05
Speaker
I'm trying to get a handle on my books and office space, but what has helped, thanks to Aki, is this idea of cleaning the floors in the toilet every day. For the past week, I've started the morning by sweeping the floors, and and even the the toilet every day, or even every other day, because it's just two of us here, so it doesn't get nasty.
01:00:30
Speaker
All that takes me in the neighborhood less than 10 minutes roughly. We have a pretty small house anyway, but with three dogs and living underneath a gorgeous pine tree, ah fur and pine needles accumulate at a startling rate. i mean It's amazing the the little pile of dirt that I sweep up every morning. like In 24 hours, like this much has gotten into the house somehow. It's crazy.
01:00:53
Speaker
After giving the toilet its first major clean a few days ago, like getting out an old toothbrush to really get into some of the grimy areas, the toilet has been in pristine condition for more than a week. It's pretty crazy. Best it's ever looked, quite um quite honestly. But this attention to detail and the constant surveying of the living space really makes me interrogate the utility of everything I come into contact with.
01:01:17
Speaker
I'm finding that I'm a little less twitchy. The last few days I've just been like afraid electrical wire. I don't know what's going on there. I've been massacring my nails, but that happens. It just does. I don't know why.
01:01:32
Speaker
fewer things are getting are getting dirty and clearing off surfaces creates a calm interface for me. You know, seeing table, like counters with nothing on them is like zen. It is for my wife as well, so it's got a double whammy there.
01:01:51
Speaker
I used to do this a few years ago but got away from it. ah I started ah a reading calendar in my bullet journal and on my Google calendar that tells me when to start and finish a book by. It's very hard for me to get my head around all the books I have coming in and when best to read them, how to budget my time to read them. And seeing them on a calendar means I don't get as stressed when I see the gigantic pile of books taking up space in the studio.
01:02:21
Speaker
yeah I'll be reading um Jeff Charlotte's The Undertow starting, well, today, ah Thursday, then this other book called Newspaper by by Maggie Meset from episode 8 fame starting next Thursday, and then The Secret History of Bigfoot by John O'Connor starting the next Thursday. The best part about that is the quicker I read those, the quicker I can donate them and get them out of my space.
01:02:49
Speaker
If a book has been on my shelf for two years or longer and I haven't gotten to it for one reason or another, it's got to get out of the house. I get hundreds of book pitches a year, many of them physical, most of them PDFs or net galleys, but that's its own kind of clutter also. ah But the cruxes as nonfiction writers, we're naturally accumulators, we're researchers. We have boxes full of shit in when a book is done. You don't want to chuck all that.
01:03:17
Speaker
You might need it. Maybe not, but probably? I doubt it. But if you're like me, I've had a physical journal since 1997, totaling some 4,000 entries. Those have to be stored somewhere. I'm not getting rid of those. you know Living minimally has a host of other benefits, like extricating yourself from the machine of capitalism, the machine of FOMO, the machine of inadequacy,
01:03:43
Speaker
These are all things that make me a better writer. Few things make me feel better than getting rid of belonging and in and giving them another life with someone else. I breathe deeper, feel a bit lighter. My mind can plug into the world better. My work better. In any case, sometimes being a writer and living minimally doesn't feel entirely compatible.
01:04:09
Speaker
But my brain is such a electrified, frazzled mess. It is helping me somewhat. Maybe you too. Stay wild. See you in efforts. If you can't do interviews, see ya.