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S2 Ep142: VGBD - Good Protagonists
82 Plays5 years ago
Join Dave and Jake for another episode of Video Game Break Down where they discuss what makes a good protagonist...or maybe what doesn't!
Thoughts? Comments? Requests for new episodes? Feel free to email them in!
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Thoughts? Comments? Requests for new episodes? Feel free to email them in!
SoapstonePodcast@gmail.com
Like our podcast? Like our podcast! We'll post when new episodes are uploaded!
https://www.facebook.com/SoapstonePodcast/
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Transcript
Introduction and Hosts
00:00:56
Speaker
How's it going, everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soapstone. My name is Jake. I'm joined by my co-host, as always, Dave. How's it going tonight, Dave? It is going peachy, Jacob. How are you? I'm doing pretty good. Pretty swell, actually. Pretty great. Excellent. I mean, brag about all of a sudden, I was like, my life's akin to that of a fruit. And you're like, my life's amazing. Right. Whatever you said, man, my life's better than that. I mean, peach is a pretty good fruit, though.
00:01:25
Speaker
Oh, they bruise easy. Come on, get out of here. I mean, so do I, but I think I'm doing okay. I mean, so do bananas. So do all fruits, actually. Yeah. I thought pineapples are pretty robust. I don't know if I would trust a fruit that like doesn't bruise.
00:01:44
Speaker
Is that how you test them at the store? Just give them a swift punch. Right. I appreciate that. No, I actually can't think of a fruit. I guess like a coconut and technically be a fruit that wouldn't bruise easily. It would bruise me easily. I feel like I could definitely dent a watermelon, but a coconut would break my hand.
00:02:12
Speaker
Glad
Social Media and Promotion
00:02:13
Speaker
you're doing well, though. I know our last episode we opened and we had the discussion of state of goodness and everything like that. And I appreciate those in-depth back and forths and discussions and things like that. I think that it's a meaningful conversation to have, all of that. But then sometimes it's really nice when it's just like, things going OK. You're like, yeah, things are OK. All right, excellent. I wouldn't post on Facebook about my life. That's where we're at, you know?
00:02:40
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't post on Facebook about like anything unless the pod, except the podcast only then if you're unavailable. Okay. Okay. Thank you. That is my line. It's like once every six months where I'm kind of like, Jake, I'm not in town Sunday afternoon. Please do things.
00:03:03
Speaker
Yeah, I had a message from my mother-in-law and it was like, hey, you know, tell Jenny this message, whatever. And it was back like around Christmas, I guess. And I caught that one like pretty, I was lucky. I signed in like around the right time. Yeah. And I was like, sure, yeah, I'll send her a message. And I logged out of Facebook and I came back like two weeks later. I was like, oh, she said thanks. Cool.
00:03:28
Speaker
And that was like, I'm basically at postage time with someone on the other side of the world. That's what you should expect my response time on Facebook to be like. Why wouldn't she just call or text either of you, I guess. I can't remember. Jamie may have been streaming at the time or something. I can't remember.
00:03:47
Speaker
But basically it was just check your messages, sort of message. Okay. I think there's like packets in transit. You know, a good message. Hey, this is a message to check other messages. Right. Well, if you can get another person to relay that check message message, then it is slightly more reliable, I think. Alexa, set a reminder to contact Jake to then have him check a message about the other messages. Yeah, something like that.
00:04:17
Speaker
But yeah, no, I mean, I really don't use the platform that much. It's basically just good for our podcast. Yep.
Episode Topic Introduction: Good Protagonists in Video Games
00:04:27
Speaker
Speaking of a podcast, uh, this episode is on good protagonists, which was a topic we were kicking around for a while. I guess back and forth. We've been planning this for two years. So if it's not enough, we apologize. All right.
00:04:43
Speaker
Now I make no guarantees or expectations of quality, but it is something we're kicking back and forth a bit. Like, do we have enough information related to just talk about protagonists in the general sense? And we decided that we didn't.
00:04:59
Speaker
But if we talk about the discussion of figuring out how we talk about protagonists in the general sense, like a meta sense, then we had enough content. You're all fans of BDG, right? I don't know what that is. Brian David Gilbert. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. It goes off of polygon. It goes very meta and nuanced. I instinctively felt the need to apologize for that because he's so prevalent in our friend group.
00:05:25
Speaker
You're just like, Oh, sorry for the listeners. Yes, I do know who John Tran. Who? Oh, sorry guys. My bad. Yeah. This is the new John Tran, basically. Oh, different, different, probably a little different, a little more unhinged somehow. But I mean, that's, that's a stick for sure. I like it though. It's good. He's kind of got like the mad scientist vibes. Yes. Yeah.
00:05:56
Speaker
Anyways, we talked about protagonists and I made a list of a bunch of different protagonists and then Dave was like, hey, we should come up with some criteria. What's actually good or bad about these individuals?
00:06:12
Speaker
Take it
Relatable Character Archetypes
00:06:13
Speaker
away, Dave. What's good in the protagonist? What do you look for in your protagonist? It's one of my favorite lines to say, and I also apologize in advance. It depends because obviously there's going to be like different character archetypes and also to a degree it's subjective. I feel certain things are objectively shit. Again, that's still my subjective opinion.
00:06:34
Speaker
But we kind of broke this down into there are characters who are really good because they are relatable and you kind of see like a character growth in them throughout the game and you relate to them. They're the kind of characters who are just like,
00:06:51
Speaker
a blank space and it's meant to be like, yeah, exactly. Like anybody who doesn't speak or just makes noises is really meant for like the person playing the game to go through the experience of the game and they're not really a defined character. And then there's some that are kind of just like
00:07:13
Speaker
out there. Like people who are very much leaning into their archetype or trope. My go-to example for that is like a Travis touchdown, who's like just over the top, weeb, who just wants to play video games and jerk off and like, that's who he is for the entire fucking game. We can relate with that. Yeah, relateable character.
00:07:36
Speaker
So Travis is interesting because his frenetic energy just matches the gameplay in the world. He falls into there pretty easily. It's all the way forward. There's no backseat. It's just all very fast paced adrenaline pumping. And he's just a mercenary for the sake of the money to
00:08:03
Speaker
Not have to work again. Again, lots of emphasis. We can all relate to this. Very likable. Yeah. I think that like property, having protagonists that are compatible with both the story you're trying to tell.
00:08:21
Speaker
which I think most people land, but also the tone of the story that you were trying to tell is really important. And you can definitely make missteps, even when it seems like otherwise things are coming together. One example I had for that was Dante from DMC, which was not super well received by the series. The game
00:08:49
Speaker
I love the game. Game's great. I have a lot of fun in DMC, but people just hated the character because it's like a reboot and he's kind of the, um, the douche. He's a douche. Yeah. He really is a douche. I mean, that was, it seemed like they were just trying to make a very distinct identity for like, Hey, can we branch off in this space? Can we do a Shadow the Hedgehog game? And the game was like, nah, it's not really a thing. Thank you though. Yeah.
00:09:17
Speaker
But it really interfered with what fans thought. In my section, I was populating the different protagonists in different groups. Dante usually goes into cool.
00:09:30
Speaker
He's the cool protagonist. He's just there to be the cool person. And he has his awesome moments. He has his one-liners. And he's a personality there to look at and be like, I'm playing a video game where I am significantly cooler than I am in real life. And that feels pretty good. Nothing wrong with that. But if you're playing this sort of whiny, douchebag-type character, pretentious, whatever,
00:10:00
Speaker
That's too close to me, right? There's not a great enough distance, right? I mean, that is how people describe you when you're not on Discord. Where's that nasally fuck? It's a personal critique, you know, if I'm dealing with that. Well, yeah, you want to be able to either empathize with the character you're playing as or idolize.
00:10:24
Speaker
So cool characters, I feel you want to idolize more. You're like, I'm never gonna be a ruined king with a badass sword. That's just not my day-to-day life. But it's gaming, it's fantasy. You're like, man, this is so fucking badass and cool. So when you have a character who's very stoic and pulls out the one line and you're like, hey, it feels cool. And you're just vibing off that.
00:10:46
Speaker
Yeah. But I mean, it makes sense for those characters in those settings. Like if it's more of like a dark depressing world, but they're kind of pulling out some cool one liners, just being a badass, like you're all from Witcher. You're like, okay, he kind of stands out on his own. I like that. Yeah.
00:11:05
Speaker
And Geralt's an interesting one. So like Geralt, I have in the category of people where you decide. You decide. Right. It's an RPG. So you're making decisions about how quests resolve, things like that. Is Geralt a douchebag? Is he trying to like always get maximum money? Is he like completely irresponsibly always saying, I will not accept payment for this job?
00:11:30
Speaker
And then you just don't make any money like the game lets you do that lets you be the nice guy Witcher for some reason pass right But you always have the option so it actually Like you know kind of matters a little bit if you want to just be like play through Getting thanked by peasant simulator. You can play the Witcher like that But he's also got a personality on his own and
00:11:55
Speaker
And like that provides a solid base, I think for the player. So like your Geralt might be a douchebag who just like always kills everything, right? There's no intricacies. He's always just out there murder a Kimbo. Um, instead of like investigating things or trying to like make people happy in some way.
00:12:20
Speaker
Um, but he has an underlying personality of always kind of being really cool and in control of the situation, or at least always able to recover from whatever situation he's in, like a MacGyver sort of.
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah, he's very much a MacGyver or Batman because he is a loner character who's had years of practice killing monsters and getting paid to do it. So it makes sense if you want to like lean into the I'm going to be the douchebag version of this where the peasants will thank me for their lives. Yeah, playing hardcore Carol is pretty fun.
00:13:02
Speaker
You mentioned Batman, though, and Batman's not on our list, but there's plenty of playable games we can play as Batman. So what do you think about Batman as either a good or bad?
00:13:18
Speaker
protagonist. I have to battle my inner child from like when I was 14 because like Batman as I grew up was kind of like the ideal badass wears black kicks everybody's ass has his own code of justice that he follows and like Black Ranger that's
00:13:41
Speaker
No, that would actually be the White Ranger. Well, I guess the Green Ranger, where he's more rogue and badass and have a flute knife. But I always liked the character of Batman in that regard as I was growing up. Right. But now looking back,
00:13:58
Speaker
he's kind of simple in a way. Now, if you look into like the comic books, you definitely see like arcs and like how he came to be and who he is as far as comic book canon. But in a video game sense, he's still kind of like, I'm the stoic, quiet, loner guy. I don't need anybody, even though he like trains orphans to fight crime as well. It's an apprenticeship, you know, just employing the workforce.
00:14:28
Speaker
Yeah. So if I had to pick though.
00:14:35
Speaker
I don't know if I would immediately jump to put him in a good protagonist space. For me, I prefer protagonists, if we're looking in a character growth sense, that actually change and react to situations and don't just like bottle it all up and then move past it. Because that's my thing. Fuck you, video games.
00:15:01
Speaker
I'm really glad you touched on that, actually, because that's exactly the point I was going to bring up is he's the antithesis of change, right? The drama from like the Batman stories comes from the fact that he won't change. He won't violate his code not to kill. Yeah. Unless it's like one of the spinoff series or something, Batman After Dark or whatever, you know.
00:15:25
Speaker
Flashpoint or something great great movie, but anyways And that makes them like less interesting from a video game perspective I think like it's convenient because you can hop into Batman shoes and be like
00:15:39
Speaker
I could roleplay as Batman in any encounter for this game, because Batman doesn't have nuance, right? He's just here to beat people up, but not kill them. That's what there's a mo.
00:15:55
Speaker
Oh, an interesting point, kind of looking at the opposite side of that. If you look at Batman Beyond, which was arguably like a Batman reboot, but like it had its own comic series anyway. Oh my God, it's so fucking good.
00:16:11
Speaker
Batman Beyond, I love that show, but it stars Terry McGinnis as the new Batman. And it's like 50 years later. So like Batman still exists, but he trains Terry to be the new Batman because Batman's old as fuck. Right. Terry's one of the orphans, obviously.
00:16:29
Speaker
actually yet? Well, he still has a mom. For now. Hold that man's got a list. Cracks, knuckles, breaks hands, goes to hospital. But you see Terry's experience of like, oh, I'm still in high school and having to deal with that shit, having to deal with his dad being murdered, and assuming the responsibility of Batman.
00:16:52
Speaker
So like I much more prefer the character of Terry McGinnis as Batman because you see that growth and you see him encountering challenges and dealing with shit. Right.
00:17:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think a setup like that for Batman Beyond is using original Batman with his code as the perfect placement as a foil for the actual protagonist who has to make decisions. Because having immovable protagonists that never violate their own codes, that never have these crises of conscience,
00:17:28
Speaker
Like the recurring thing in Batman is always Batman could save so many lives if he took one and he doesn't do it. Right. To like extreme ends, he does not do it. And to have other people where you think like maybe they may actually make that decision, I think makes it more interesting narratively. Yeah.
00:17:57
Speaker
That's definitely, that is Batman. Is there someone else? Actually, I can actually bring this one up because I think there's points to and against.
Protagonist Merits Debate: Master Chief vs. Doomguy
00:18:07
Speaker
You had Master Chief on your example of a bad protagonist list.
00:18:13
Speaker
And I had them on a good protagonist list and I'm wondering what your justification for that is. Explain yourself. I want to keep using the sound edit of You Decide from Epic Rap Battles of History. But I think he's shit because he doesn't really do anything. Like he's kind of like a silent protagonist, but then he still has speaking sections, but he never changes. He's just kind of a military guy.
00:18:40
Speaker
Yeah. And they don't make them really cool or boring. It's just that like he's, at least in the earlier games, like the only Spartan and it's just a cool guy in badass armor. But he's really fucking basic. Yeah, I would agree with that. He is really basic. And you also only ever see him in his suit as far as I know. Yeah, I think depth.
00:19:04
Speaker
I'm sure that there's been some face unveiling at some point. I don't know. I haven't really. There's fanart. There's fanart. Yeah, right. I'm sure that exists, too. But I've never tracked enough to care. But I think he is emblematic of the classic silent protagonist who's really capable. And it's kind of like a power trip in some ways, a little bit. I mean, obviously, the armor suit, right?
00:19:33
Speaker
Like you could compare this guy almost like point to point with Doomguy or Doom Slayer from like the new series, right? They're very, very similar. The difference is that like in Halo, they try to have other characters with relationships or plot progression and things like that. That never really applies to Doomguy or I mean to Master Chief.
00:20:01
Speaker
And in doom they're like we don't care about relationships and characters and things go have fun. Great but there's definitely a an ambitious pun actually intended for doom guy.
00:20:17
Speaker
Yeah. Um, like you see him rejecting what I forget the doctor's name every single time. We're just going to keep using that sound clip. Um, but like you see him rejecting that and just doing his own, like, no, I'm going to fucking kill the demons thing. Whereas master chief is just a guy following orders.
00:20:45
Speaker
So I feel like Doomguy is a better sign of protagonist because the few times you see him show any type of emotion or reaction, it's all shown physically. He never says anything. He just expresses it with his hands and you know what he's thinking or feeling. Right.
00:21:06
Speaker
Whereas Master Yi is like, I will go do this thing. I'm going to stop them from setting off Halo. I got to stop the flood. Okay. Cool. Yeah. I think there's very few times that he shows a lot of initiative and it's always just like, I didn't realize you were that cool type of moment for the rest of like the military, but you're right. For the most part, he's following orders and there's plenty of games where you play a nameless military person following orders. So question for you.
00:21:37
Speaker
A two-fold question. First being, do you think Master Chief is a better protagonist than Isaac Clarke from the recent Dead Space game, parentheses episode? Two, if they didn't have the trailers for Halo and the music of Halo for like the main menu, would you think Master Chief was as good of a protagonist?
00:22:02
Speaker
Do you think he stands on his own in that regard or do you think it's just kind of tied in with the lore and the theming? No, that's probably true. I think Isaac Clarke is a better protagonist. I don't even have him as a good protagonist on this list because he's sort of like immortal in the series, which I'm not really a fan of and plausibly gets out of every situation and you know,
00:22:31
Speaker
I realize that's because you're playing as him, right? Yeah. But at the same time, it breaks narrative, believe it. Varisimilitude is the $10 word I'm going to use here when you set up a dangerous world and the literally just an engineer makes it through all of it consistently and always escapes.
Isaac Clarke vs. Master Chief
00:22:55
Speaker
But at least he has something going on where I guess Master Chief doesn't. So I'm going to take back my defense of Master Chief in the cool sector. Because even though like the armor is cool, I can't even remember the name of it. My brain keeps going to Praetor, which is the armor for Doom Slayer. And so like, yeah, no. Your two part question is, I think Isaac Clarke is better as a protagonist, but not good enough to make it on this list. No, no, he's not.
00:23:26
Speaker
All right, let's build off that. Do you think there are any really good silent protagonists? I mean, obviously, I just said that I liked Doomguy because you have a few interactions with him. And when you have no voice, any expression that you show, regardless of how minor, reflects much more greatly. This goes back to the discussion of minimalism and undertale. And then when you have certain things show up that weren't there before, you're like, oh, wow, that's really impactful.
00:23:57
Speaker
I think it's definitely harder. It's harder to have a really memorable silent protagonist because usually if you make the game design decision to have a silent protagonist, you want the rest of the game to speak for you. Halo wanted to be a good shooter. Yes. Half-Life wanted to be a good shooter. Legend of Zelda wanted you to experience the world. It's not a good shooter, I'll tell you that. Yeah, right now. He's got the bow and arrow. It's not even in this century, man.
00:24:28
Speaker
I think the best games probably play off of it a little bit, so I just listed off a bunch of examples, but another one on the list was Undertale, because your protagonist never says anything. And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they actually address that at some point in the game?
00:24:49
Speaker
They're just like that weirdo standing over there and not saying anything. It's been a couple of years, so I apologize to the fandom out there, but I think so. Yeah. If not, then I've generated that memory and it fits nicely into the comfortable fireplace with a chair next to it where Undertale exists in my mind.
00:25:11
Speaker
It fits my narrative. Yeah, exactly. Fucking liberal. Yeah, but I would almost argue, like, obviously I love Undertale a whole lot, but I don't think Frisk is a good protagonist. Really? I would argue that. They're not memorable for me. It's just that is like the, that's how you're getting into the game. You're playing as Frisk, but in the same way,
00:25:41
Speaker
actually differently from, let's say, Link from the Zelda series. I feel like Link has more personality because he makes noises and is like a small elf child, whereas Frisk is just never any expression, never anything. It's just a 2D sprite that like moves.
00:26:01
Speaker
So maybe I'm attributing, I'm going back to the Dead Space episode and I'm attributing more narrative surroundings around Frisk to the character himself. Because the game does things like, are you even the person you think you are? And if it lands because Frisk is not... It's not Frisk doing it, it's you. And at that point in your game, you do feel that, yeah.
00:26:26
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, you're right. That doesn't really necessarily take that place. In that case, I'm going to pivot entirely to a different answer and different game. And say the stranger from Fury is a good example of a silent protagonist.
00:26:44
Speaker
Would you like to elaborate? Or are you looking for me to rebut or agree? Right now, I would like you to argue before I make my point so that I can have the last word. OK. So my argument for this, for The Stranger, is the game works because The Stranger can't speak, like, narratively, or does not speak.
00:27:08
Speaker
the game works because you are playing as this character breaking through all of these guardians, all these gates and fights and you don't know his motivation other than you were imprisoned and now you're breaking free. And they use that kind of fact that you're never elucidating the situation, you're never explaining what's going on, you never hear the stranger
00:27:31
Speaker
He doesn't do anything other than provide some emotional feedback for certain characters to make you doubt his purpose or his intention there. You just get his resolve and that's all that comes through.
00:27:51
Speaker
Again, that feeds into the narrative, but it makes the whole story cohesive because he never just explains. He never just has a conversation with somebody and gives it all away. Yeah. They could have easily been like, this is you. And you're like, yup.
00:28:07
Speaker
But yeah, it definitely helps the whole story of the game to just be like, this is a cool badass game, breaking out of prison. All these people in prison, they're douchebags. I hate them so much. So much. And then as you go, you see certain interactions, like maybe I'm not.
00:28:24
Speaker
the best guy. Right. Something feels amiss where like these people who you're encountering, they don't all feel evil. That's like some point in the game, like something's up. Right. And then when you get to the end, you're like, Oh, and that feels really good to have that Oh, or aha moment. Because like it wasn't spelled out for you. Yeah.
00:28:49
Speaker
And I think, I give him more points also for like, he is apparently human, looks like a human, has a mouth, makes expressions during some of the cutscenes. Yeah, there's some eyebrow races I think he does. Yeah, like, yeah. And like, having an expressive non-verbal character.
00:29:11
Speaker
where you kind of like, you're not sure if he could speak, but he's choosing not to. It's very different than playing like Gordon Freeman, where you like never see him as it's a first person shooter. And so he never is responsive or emotive or anything like that.
00:29:27
Speaker
Yeah, I was confused by the boxer. I'm like, who is this guy? Right. Is he the boss? Are we killing that guy? All right. All right. Somewhere, right? We will. What was that? They must have had a mirror at some point. Otherwise, how would you know what Gordon Freeman looks like? But that was the box, mostly, I think. Interesting. Yeah, I don't actually, I don't mind for future games.
00:29:52
Speaker
It's been a very long time since I played Half-Life. I can't remember if there's a mirror in there or not, but... Like, Halo makes sense. Like, I definitely see my guy die. There's multiplayer. I know what my character looks like. Right. Yeah, that's my argument for silent protagonists. I think, in general, most of them aren't
00:30:16
Speaker
Terribly, um, obviously by design, you know, terribly emotive or it's harder to get on the best protagonist list if you're completely silent, I think.
00:30:28
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I think a lot of it is more so based around the game and experience with it. Like fucking love the night from Hollow Knight, really cool design, really simple, but it's the game. I feel like the most he expresses is he like bows to somebody once. Oh yeah. And it's very expressive for him, never doing anything. Yeah. But I feel like I can't really put him up there as a good protagonist. Mm-hmm.
00:30:56
Speaker
I was thinking about that too. I was looking at him on the list. I was like, should I just like go hard and aggressive, aggressive against all that nice? Um, but yeah, I think for everybody we had on the list, link is probably one of the top like silent in quotes, protagonist. He has count, you know? Um,
00:31:18
Speaker
I thought of a counterpoint. I want to throw up. I want to throw up to the court the suggestion of Senua from Hellblade Senua's sacrifice. Is she really a silent protagonist if you get a voiceover in the epilogue?
00:31:40
Speaker
Is that her voice? I don't, I don't know. I thought the whole thing was narrated and like she kind of faces and expresses at the camera, but I don't think she ever speaks throughout the whole game. There was a, there was a different voice in the epilogue. That's what it was.
00:31:55
Speaker
I'm pretty sure. I'm going to give you the squint. I can't prove you wrong currently. It wasn't her. I'm pretty sure it wasn't hers. By me time, I'm going to fact-check myself. So anyway, if anybody who hasn't played Senua, please check it out. It's a beautiful game that steps into mental illness, and I feel like they do a cool job of that.
00:32:13
Speaker
It also just looks good as fuck. But throughout the game, they used face capture for Senua. So when she does express at the camera, talking to the voices in her head, saying like, kind of grimacing like, hey, shut the fuck up. It feels really cool because you actually have the expression. It's not like playing a PlayStation 1 game. You're like, I think this is what they went for here.
00:32:40
Speaker
You seem like you were good on time. I was still muted. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was voiceover by someone else. Not her. You're correct. Can you give the bicep an old kiss? Called it. It's really good. Yeah. If you want further information about Hellblade, we did an episode on it. So, you know, check that out. Let me give myself another bicep. Great. Somewhere there in the back. But do you think Senua is a good example of a silent protagonist?
00:33:09
Speaker
I think so. She cheats a little bit, though, because she's a silent protagonist that's crazy. OK. Crazy is a very hurtful term, and I shouldn't have said that. But like you said, mental illness. She literally hears voices. It's a gameplay mechanic, and that lends narrative context that you wouldn't have if it was like completely the voices are hers. Right.
00:33:37
Speaker
Okay, I'll give you that. But I'm not making the argument the game would be better if she didn't have voices in her head. No, that's a core mechanic. And the reason that it's so creepy while wearing headphones. So I mean, it's it's essential to the identity of the game. And she can be a really good protagonist for like a multitude of reasons beyond, you know,
00:34:06
Speaker
not hearing anything on an audio track for some time. I think she is. But yeah, I do still agree with you that if you're going to have a silent protagonist, that missing so many other things are elevated throughout the game, like what you want the focus to be on, whether it's the game environment or the music. Those are the only other two things.
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah, environment and music. It's basically the gameplay. Yeah. How do you feel about personality characters? I think they can be funny.
00:34:47
Speaker
I think they can be fun. I haven't played No More Heroes, any of the varieties yet, so I can't speak specifically to Travis in that context, but I mean like one of the ones I had on my list that I feel like fills the trickster sort of perspective was Ratchet and Clank from the game Ratchet and Clank.
00:35:12
Speaker
I guess they're pretty much interchangeable with Jack and Daxter and any of those two buddy cop sort of PlayStation games. But like they came from that or like Banjo and Kazooie or something like that. Right. This idea of humorous protagonists that are a bit irreverent. And maybe you have like some innuendos in your game.
00:35:39
Speaker
Yeah, it helps conquer the moonlight. Yeah, any window. Exactly. But I think those can work. But personally, for me, I don't usually like
00:35:58
Speaker
It's rare that I play a game and I'm like, this protagonist is very witty, really on point, very humorous. And then I'm going to like put them as a top contender in my list for that. I think that's pretty rare. Yeah. I mean, they're definitely fun. Are you going to have Gex or Bubsy or any of those guys on here? I don't think so.
00:36:27
Speaker
But I mean, you could definitely have characters that have wit that I will enjoy and talk about. But like if I'm ever two beers deep with somebody at a bar talking about like, this is what makes a character good. I'm not going to be talking about Garrett from Thief. I like the character, but it doesn't like past me and my experience playing the game at that time, there's not a lot of staying power. Yeah.
00:36:55
Speaker
They're like, the more I talk about this, I'm trying to think who really stands out and shines in my mind's eye. Just for like their personality. If somebody like came up to me while I was recording the podcast, I'm like, please, could you not come in right now? Gun to your head. Who do you think is a great protagonist and why? What's your knee jerk reaction? Who do you think in general or for personality?
00:37:23
Speaker
Just in general, and then it could be personality, it could be something else.
00:37:27
Speaker
for just, okay, now I'm imagining the gun to the head and I think it's actually throwing me off a little bit. I'm trying not to look to my notes, actually, as a form of actual remembrance here. There's some good ones. I will cheat and pick one of the game of the year that won a million awards and pick Joel from Last of Us, I think is a great fucking protagonist. Yeah. Because he's interesting, he's flawed, and in his flawed nature, he's relatable.
00:37:56
Speaker
but he also has growth and fucking changes over the course of the game.
Joel from The Last of Us: Compelling Flaws and Growth
00:38:02
Speaker
Yeah. But again, it's still flawed and relatable and you're like, holy shit. Yeah. He's very much not Batman. It's interesting. It depends.
00:38:14
Speaker
No, that's yours. Sorry. It's just my phrase. But like the last of us is loved and hated for being linear, right? Like the narrative beats are all set up. The story development is all set up. It's kind of it's I would equate it kind of like to watching a good TV show.
00:38:39
Speaker
Like just bingeing a season. Yeah, like that's kind of what it feels like And I mean it's not cheating to say like that makes a good protagonist Because you actually have to have writers who are willing to make characters do things That you are expecting the player base to buy into right? so if you're playing as Joel and Joel's like
00:39:03
Speaker
See, Ellie, I'm going to go ride a blimp to Europe because that's what I'm interested in now. You'd be like, I don't think that's what Joel would do. Right. Like you have to operate within the bounds of what people what's believable for the character, even if it is a twist. Yeah.
00:39:23
Speaker
Just like I wouldn't expect Ellie to kill the Night King. It just doesn't add up. Right, yeah. That was a weird twist. I mean, obviously, Ellie too, because you play as her. And again, her character is very relatable and it makes sense with the writing in the context of the game and what's happening.
00:39:45
Speaker
I feel like sometimes you will have characters in games where it's very flat. It's like, yeah, it's been a zombie apocalypse for three years, we know. But like, here, play this minigame. And just, it might work in the sense of a game. But if you're looking specifically for, give me a good protagonist that has a good narrative in the game and good character development, it doesn't necessarily add up, you know?
00:40:12
Speaker
Yeah. And I also think like there's, there's only so far you can go like on the good protagonist chart before you start relying on heavy writing. Like the last of us, like I have things in here that are kind of like token placeholders for the fans, I guess. Like I had the list of all of the fallout.
00:40:31
Speaker
the unobtrusive category of protagonists or got like all of the Fallout characters and it's just like, like, Vault Dollar or Chosen One, Lone Wanderer, Currier, Soul Survivor and it's because you get to play as that character and it's pure choice. Like, you can be whatever you want to be and maybe you have a great story by the end of it.
00:40:51
Speaker
But they're not really good protagonists in the way that we've qualified what that means in this episode. I mean, they're a sad protagonist, right? Like, they're a blank canvas that you kind of put your experience into, choose how you play. With the exception of the Soul Survival for Fallout 4, because that one was actually voiced and because of that they had. Oh, okay.
00:41:14
Speaker
I've never played Fallout because Bethesda has hurt me too many times. That's fair. If you play the recent ones, they can hurt you more. But yeah, in general, they're not voiced, but they have dialogue. You pick all of the dialogue options. But compared to The Last of Us or other really narrative games, I had Max Payne on that list as well.
00:41:41
Speaker
Because as a shooter, not particularly interesting anymore. Bullet time is not the most innovative thing in shooters anymore. It was fun back then. But like having somebody who just narrates the entire story like a noir detective is super entertaining.
00:42:03
Speaker
Um, and it makes his character really entertaining just because it's pure injected diet, like a written art into the characters veins. Um, so I mean, you also like Alan Wake. Oh, hmm. Because what you described is Alan Wake. I actually do like Alan Wake. I don't have him on the list, but that would have been a great inclusion. Well, next up, so we'll put him in.
00:42:31
Speaker
Yeah. For like different, your characters can be good for different reasons. Is it because they made decisions that were interesting or they evolved like the last of us, um, is because like their interactions with the world are particularly interesting? Like in Alan Wake's case, is it like how the world reflects off of them?
00:42:55
Speaker
So if you had to pick some of these like hierarchies, not hierarchies, archetypes, what is your hierarchy of archetypes? Let me phrase it that way. What do you put more value in? Like what do you look for? I guess if I preface this with, I don't usually like pick a game based off having a great protagonist.
00:43:21
Speaker
Oh, it's so fucking nice. Right. Like, otherwise I wouldn't play Dark Souls.
00:43:29
Speaker
Very good. Quality dialogue. I think like narrative impact and believability or verisimilitude are really important to me, but also having like meaningful interactions with the world. If your character does that, like this is the reason the last of us again is really good. I would put that above personality or
00:44:00
Speaker
personally, my ability to like inject my own decisions onto a character, like an open world game. What about, what about you though? Like, is there anything about, cause I kind of just went on a rant about like the meta analysis of protagonists, um,
00:44:20
Speaker
I mean, my bias will always be towards a good story. So if I'm looking for a good character or protagonist, I'm looking for somebody who's going to make me invested. So for that, it's probably not going to be silent. But looking at Bioshock Infinite, heavily invested in that.
00:44:40
Speaker
Booker DeWitt is an asshole. But how he plays as a character plus like your interaction with Elizabeth, I gave a shit about the world and the characters. So I was in it. So I felt like they did a good job of that.
00:44:59
Speaker
I don't need a game to have that, but I need to want, if I'm going for that experience. I love something that sucks me and I'm like, oh, holy shit. We're like, after you take a break from playing, you tell somebody like, yeah, you got to check this game out.
00:45:14
Speaker
When I stopped playing Undertale, like I had such an experience with that game. Whereas everyone like, hey, come over my place, sit on my computer chair, you play this now. I did that for so many people. Not ironic. You do this.
Booker DeWitt in Bioshock Infinite: Complexity and Growth
00:45:28
Speaker
Yeah, I actually want to talk about Bioshock for a second since you brought that one up. Yeah. Like Bioshock's interesting, I think from the perspective that like a lot of the character intrigue comes from the fact that
00:45:43
Speaker
I mean, we're spoiling stuff for this one. You already checked the disclaimer. BioShock Infinite, the protagonist doesn't know. He's a douchebag. He makes a bunch of terrible decisions and then regretted them, and then rather than living with them, chose to forget. And then made more bad decisions, yeah. And made more bad decisions, because that's who he is. 100%.
00:46:09
Speaker
He's a protagonist that has made reprehensible decisions and without the context of those little interactions with Elizabeth throughout the course of the game where you see those moments of humanity and the bonding and everything like that, you would not care at all what happens to him.
00:46:29
Speaker
But they earned that through those little interactions. They aren't even usually like dedicated set piece moments. There's a couple of those like picking the emblem and little times they help each other and things like that, but. It's because you spend the game seeing him convinced he can be a good person. That the reveals later. Kind of hurt more, I guess.
00:47:00
Speaker
Yeah. It's not even like he thinks he can be, like he thinks he is now. Yes, exactly. He's like, I did some shit in my past, but like, that's behind me. I'm trying to like, you know, just do a thing and like be done with it, you know? Just trying to get the girl wipe away this last debt. That's all I gotta do.
00:47:25
Speaker
So he still manipulates and is an asshole. This is my last one. This is my last day on the force. He's like, oh, I've got it all written up and we're good. But that's not the case. Yeah. He makes the decision to not complete the contract or whatever, to bring the girl and wipe away the debt. And that's his redemption moment sort of thing. But
00:47:52
Speaker
Because it's a good game with a great narrative, all this stuff's going in the background. You're like, this is really the first time we've been here. Yeah. I feel like writing still has to.
00:48:05
Speaker
have a part in it. If I think back to a lot of older games like Super Nintendo, a lot of stuff on N64, that really wasn't the point of those games at that time. It's just, hey, what's fun? What new characters can we make? What can we do with these polygons? Lara Croft as it turns out. Oh my God. I didn't play the newer generation of Lara Croft games just because I
00:48:34
Speaker
I think I saw some of the death animations. I'm like, nope, don't like that. Yeah, no, it's very uncomfortable. Yeah. There was a segment on Conan where he died multiple times, like in a river segment. That's exactly the one I'm talking about. That seems actually extra gruesome. I play violent video games and I got to that segment while I was playing through the game and like got passive anxiety because I knew there was a chance it would happen and it happened.
00:49:05
Speaker
It happened. I saw it happen. I'm just like, I don't feel good. Yeah, I just feel a little bit. But like referring back to like those older games, like I really like Kirby games. I really like Mega Man, but they're just there. They're like fun Nintendo or Capcom properties. Right. That's it.
00:49:29
Speaker
Whereas Zero, not a protagonist, has more character because he does things and says things. Yeah, that's true. I think I started this episode thinking I would place some of the more free-form characters a little more highly. I had Kirby on the list. I was like, Kirby's cute. Kirby's a fluffball.
00:49:59
Speaker
Kirby has a personality and it's not just because of the show. He's an asshole in the show, by the way. That's true. He's dumb and just eats everything. Just fucking idiot. Oh man. Again, Nintendo, the strike's too close to me in real life. Give me a break here.
00:50:20
Speaker
Here's one I actually did really like and I think he does deserve a spot on the list under interesting narratively part.
John Marston in Red Dead Redemption: A Memorable Protagonist
00:50:28
Speaker
Everybody's played Red Dead 2. That's not true. A lot of people have. I did play a lot of it and I stopped playing it. So this one's not about Red Dead 2. This one's about Red Dead 1, which was John Marston, who's the protagonist.
00:50:45
Speaker
and kind of like The Last of Us. It's interesting because this is an open world game where you can do a lot of things. Like in the Rockstar way, there is a main linear
00:50:58
Speaker
like main mission that runs through it. So the stuff that people probably remember are the main story beats that you like had to play through to get through the story. Right. Um, and, uh, the reason I think he's a really interesting protagonist is because you're like, okay, ex outlaw, you've done some crap in your past. There's actually some similarities maybe to like Booker where like, I have regrets and I'm going to shoot, try to fix them.
00:51:28
Speaker
relatable. Oh wait, you said try to fix them? Sorry, go back. Right. Yeah. Um, and so you spend like a lot of the game, um, you start out and you're like doing basic tasks, like bro, like not wrestling cattle, like moving cattle and chores and crap like that. And you're like, this is, this is an action game though, right? Like we're going to have like fun at some point.
00:51:55
Speaker
All of that stuff happens, crime, all that nonsense. And then you try to settle down and you go back to the sort of like boring tasks and he's like getting a family and he's going to have his happy ending as far as the story's concerned. And that does not happen, right? That's the big thing at the end of Red Dead.
00:52:18
Speaker
And it makes the character like, it's like reading a book. I think that's the similarity between like the last of us and the character development of Marston. It's like, if you can get attached to a character.
00:52:35
Speaker
And also play as that character through the main beats. Um, and still like have surprises and twists at the end and feel like the whole trip was worth it. That is peak. Good protagonist for me.
00:52:50
Speaker
You want to be invested in what you're saying. If something happens to them, you're like, okay, let me know this cutscene's done. Like, you're not in it. Not all games have to be that again. We've all played Monster Hunter. Holy fuck. But if it's a game where they want that to be a thing,
00:53:15
Speaker
You really got to do it. You really got to get the person or the player invested in the character and what happens. Otherwise, they got the end of Last of Us 2 after the 37th ending cutscene. You're just like, OK, who cares? But when you've played through the game and you've seen them with their twists and turns make their bad decisions or be in parallel situations and you're like, please don't die or get a stabbing in the neck.
00:53:47
Speaker
That's when you know. Yeah. That's when you know the one. When you're talking about like the, the negative example, I thought of like call of duty, uh, modern warfare two, I think is the one with, was it modern warfare? Can't remember. I think it's modern warfare two is the one with the nuke sequence and single player. Um.
00:54:09
Speaker
Might have been Modern Warfare. Doesn't really matter. Same game. But your protagonist dies dramatically. And it was a big point in gaming for a lot of people. But nobody cared about the guy. It was because your playable character died.
00:54:27
Speaker
and a Call of Duty game. And it's just like, oh, out to satellite view. Now we're going to look at the SAS. That it was impactful. I don't even remember the name of the guy, right?
00:54:42
Speaker
So you can definitely still have an impactful beat that's not based around the main character's involvement in the world, but it's a lot better when you do have that connection, I think. Yeah. Again, going back to like recent-ish episodes, when we played... Oh, I'm so tired. We played Detroit. Yeah. Those are great protagonists. Yeah.
00:55:07
Speaker
Because they had like an interesting story. I gave a fuck what happened to them. They were very much their own. I don't want to use the term people, but people like objects. They were definitely their own individual characters that all had different but interweaving stories. And it was interesting. And again, I gave a shit. I was invested in them as characters. When it's like, you better find a place to hide. I'm like,
00:55:36
Speaker
Ooh, I could make a number of wrong choices. I hope I made the right one. Great, exactly.
00:55:42
Speaker
Yeah, having an emotional attachment to the characters makes a big difference. Emotions, we said it before, are great for manipulation. And it's not always a bad thing. But in the same way, like you go to a movie and you want to watch a comedy, that's manipulating your emotions. It's playing off of things that are going to make you laugh and release those endorphins and get you into it. Yes, exactly. I fully agree.
00:56:11
Speaker
All right. I know we're getting towards the end, but where would you play something like Assassin's Creed 2 Ezio Auditory? Cause like I enjoy that game. I thought it was a good character. Um, the Assassin's Creed storyline kind of makes you not necessarily feel like Ezio cause there's like a decent event that the whole thing's kind of weird. Yeah. That's just popped in my head though.
00:56:38
Speaker
Yeah, so he's on the list, but the more we've talked about him, or the more we've talked about this, the lower I would put Ezio. I remember very few interactions, even though he has his own personality, and that's something that Assassin Creed does not always pull off with a protagonist, which is to be expected when you're on the 45th game. Pick a place. What do you mean? Pick a place on the globe.
00:57:06
Speaker
Yeah, Brazil. All right. We have a new Assassin's Creed. Well, that's where they were a while ago. Now they're like, all right, now we need a time because we've already got a Brazil. So is this ancient history in Brazil? Are you people like, oh, the Norseman is popular on Netflix. There we go. Yeah. God have worked it well. OK.
00:57:26
Speaker
But in retrospect, even though we probably placed highly on a lot of other people's lists and has good relationships with people, things like that, nothing stands out like to the same extent as some of the other stuff on this list.
00:57:43
Speaker
So yeah, I, uh, I have to, I have to say this one because I almost forgot entirely, which would have been a really bad
Commander Shepard in Mass Effect: Player Choice and Impact
00:57:50
Speaker
sign. But, um, so you have not played mass effect, correct? Correct. Yeah. So mass effect has a protagonist, a protector protagonist name is commander shepherd. Great protagonist.
00:58:06
Speaker
So you haven't, as I now know and have confirmed you haven't played the game, you can't contest this point. So I can just leave it there. OK. I'm guessing the fact that I can't contest it means you're wrong in some way. Probably. But yeah, I think it's so we've talked about like how much we favor the narrative approach.
00:58:26
Speaker
And like Commander Shepard is in the middle, like the narrative is always moving forward, but what you do can impact the narrative. And you always remain a focal point of the story. And things are always happening to you and the people closest to you.
00:58:43
Speaker
And so it taps those sweet spots of emotional investment in auxiliary characters or side characters or adjacent characters. Strong writing, making interesting things happen to the protagonist. Sex with a robot. Sex with a robot and aliens and basically whatever you want. It's a very perverse game.
00:59:12
Speaker
That's not true, actually, but if you believe Fox News, it probably is. But you can't have sex with a robot and an alien, obviously. I think. I can't remember if the robot thing's true now, but definitely the alien.
00:59:29
Speaker
Jakes me googling, what can I fucking massive? I don't think the I don't think the robot worked because it was actually the pilot that had a relationship with the robot. So it was Joker in the cockpit who was voiced by a very popular person whose name is Seth Benjamin.
00:59:55
Speaker
uh, gashel green, Seth green. Oh, okay. Do you know? I feel like this guy's popular. Like Seth green, like Christian, robot chicken. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Hmm. I like Seth green. Yeah, exactly. He's a pretty good protagonist is where I was going with this.
01:00:21
Speaker
So anyways, if you have any other ideas of a good protagonist, you can send them in to us. If there's somebody really upset that we didn't mention, sorry. But also, you could suggest or post that to our Facebook at Facebook.com slash Slope Stone podcast. Or if there's a protagonist who did a lot of that stuff
01:00:46
Speaker
We were talking about mass effect. I don't really want to post that to Facebook. Send that to our Gmail, soapstonepodcast.gmail.com. And as always, we'll see you in the next one. No next submissions. Thank you.