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Episode 4: William Wallace (Braveheart) vs Leonidas (300) – Face Paint & Painted-On Abs
24 Plays2 months ago
Two legendary war cries. Two historically loose interpretations of freedom. One epic matchup.
This week, we pit the broadsword-swinging Scotsman against the javelin-hurling King of Sparta in a no-holds-barred clash of kilts and capes. Expect passionate yelling, slo-mo charges, and enough testosterone to make your speakers sweat.
We break down their combat styles, battlefield tactics, and cinematic absurdities—plus:
Which leader actually had the better strategy. Who's more dangerous without an army. Another round of Keyboard Carnage from fan reviews.
And perhaps the earlier known slowclap in history.
So grab your war paint (or airbrush kit) and prepare for glory. This one’s gonna be messy.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Tournament
00:00:07
Speaker
This is the fictional fighting championship podcast, the ultimate battleground where Hollywood's deadliest warriors collide. We're taking 48 of the most ruthless, skilled, and battle-hardened fighters from movies and TV and throwing them into a no-holds-bar tournament to see who survives.
00:00:26
Speaker
You've seen in the movies, you know the legends. Now it's time to settle the score.
Meet the Hosts
00:01:12
Speaker
I'm Jordan Guerrero. I'm Christian Doherty. And I'm, wait, what'd you say your name was? Christian Doherty. Is that, is that how your name always has been? doing this. We're doing this again.
00:01:26
Speaker
This, uh, I know. I think, I think actually like episode one of the first episodes I said, Doherty. And then the next episode I said Doherty in an American accent.
00:01:38
Speaker
so So, so are you, me are you okay with me saying Doherty in the intro that I just filmed the, totally fine. Okay. and I'm so used to the stupid American pronunciation by now.
00:01:51
Speaker
Well, we just met recently. So I'm, that's why I was mispronouncing your name. We don't know each other that well. So no no great. Your name is Doherty apparently, but, Okay, fine. That sounds pretty cool, actually, in an American accent. i actually haven't heard the Americans say it like that before, which is kind of cool. Doherty.
00:02:08
Speaker
like it Like a K.
First Matchup: Leonidas vs Wallace
00:02:10
Speaker
Okay. yeah Anyway, anyway let listen, I'm Steve Sadler, and this is a podcast about the greatest fictional tournament in the history of the universe. Today we have first-round matchup, and it's ah it's a sweet one.
00:02:24
Speaker
King Leonidas from the movie 300 and William Wallace from Braveheart. So this is an awesome one. what any Any initial thoughts about this, guys? ah Absolutely. I mean, these two...
00:02:36
Speaker
Thinking about them, they were pretty similar. And then diving deeper into watching the movies, I realized how incredibly similar these characters are. This is by far the best matchup we've had so far. These guys are so neck and neck.
00:02:48
Speaker
I genuinely have no idea who's going to win this. So neck and neck, similar storylines, similar politicking, similar fighting styles, master tacticians.
00:03:01
Speaker
ah Really, really cool matchup. And both movies really have cult followings that just, I think, never lose steam. They just keep going forever. And I just want to say this before we get rolling without getting too deep into strategy or anything. i I do want to mention this. Most people are listening to this probably thinking that, okay, these are two similar characters because they're using very primitive weapons.
00:03:23
Speaker
swords, daggers, things like that, and that we matched them up intentionally. Totally false. This just happened organically without pulling the curtain too far back.
00:03:34
Speaker
What I did was created all these tiers, rough tiers. I didn't rank them or anything, but I put them in rough tiers before any research. and kind of let an algorithm decide who was who was facing who and and and who was facing you know round by round.
00:03:49
Speaker
This just happened to pop up. So pretty crazy how similar they are. At first, I thought it was just because of the primitive weapons and that they're old-timey warriors, but it turned into such you know way, way, way more than that.
00:04:02
Speaker
It was meant to be. It was meant to be.
00:04:11
Speaker
Let's jump
Leonidas: The Spartan Warrior
00:04:12
Speaker
in here. Let's do a tale of the tape. um The first one we're going to talk about is King Leonidas. He debuted in 2006 in the movie 300, portrayed by Gerard Butler.
00:04:22
Speaker
The character's approximate fight stats, about 200 pounds, 40 years old. roughly forty years old His home turf, he's fighting out of Sparta Greece, of course.
00:04:34
Speaker
And his signature moves are probably like the Spartan spear jab, ah shield blitzes, and moves like that. And his vibe check, alpha energy.
00:04:47
Speaker
I don't think anybody would question that accent Scottish. What? that That is true. Gerard Butler is a Scottish. Okay. So yet another similarity, right? Whose, whose Scottish accent was better?
00:05:01
Speaker
I was super impressed by Mel Gibson's Scottish accent. Like he, he did amazing with that thing. Like, ah you know, I'm assuming he had voice like coaching. Yeah. Cause some of the actors, I actually don't know they that they' where they're from, but they had,
00:05:17
Speaker
less of a good accent i would say they do a just a generic british accent and then say yeah yeah yeah but it's fun fact here's a fun fact um apparently mel gibson uh consulted sean connery to help him with the scottish accent had lunch or something with him from what i understand yeah very cool let's jump in to the kill count you guys remind me who's winning here It's not important.
00:05:43
Speaker
Is it, is it four to two or is it five to one? I don't even know. i need to, Go back and do the count. We need to do the count. I think it's four to two. I think it's four to two. I think it's four to two. I'm pretty confident about that, but we'll double check. King Leonidas kill count. Remember, on screen kills count.
00:06:01
Speaker
So do on screen. Talking about it, implied kills. We don't have to see them, but if he walks into a room and then walks out and he's cleaning his knife, of course that counts. If somebody says he killed 30 people last night, even if we didn't see it on screen, it still counts.
00:06:16
Speaker
But we have to know about them. Uh, I'm going to say 100, even 100. one hundred Okay. I'm going to say 70, 70. Okay. All right. Well, you're both going to be surprised.
00:06:30
Speaker
The winner is Jordan. The kill count is apparently about 39. o And the reason is because they were very, they weren't stingy about giving this guy as many kills as possible.
00:06:42
Speaker
The 300 were said to have killed like 20,000 Persians. And Leonidas was, of course, in direct command. So he had to kill just thousands of people by himself. But there's even a scene where we see he just delegates. There's a bunch of people just laying around.
00:06:57
Speaker
ah You know, a bunch of Persians, I think, laying just laying around. And his buddies are just going around stabbing them to make sure they're dead. So he gave those kills to to his his buddies. So Jordan wins. It's now six to three.
00:07:09
Speaker
no four to three.
William Wallace: The Scottish Rebel
00:07:11
Speaker
Tale the tape, Wallace. William Wallace from Braveheart. His debut was 1995 in the movie Braveheart, portrayed by Mel Gibson. His fight stats, about 190.
00:07:23
Speaker
And he was in his early to mid-20s. Kind of noteworthy because Mel Gibson was in his late 30s. In fact, I think he was almost 40 when he was doing this. So I don't know what's a better acting job for Mel Gibson acting as a 23-year-old or Danny Trejo acting as person.
00:07:41
Speaker
person so Fighting out of the Scottish Highlands, of course. I guess specifically out of Eldersley, Renfrewshire.
00:07:51
Speaker
Chris, do you know where that is? oh Yeah, actually, that's ah one town over from where I grew up. You grew up in Scotland?
00:08:00
Speaker
Everyone just thinks that ah you know if if they know of a place in England, they just assume that I grew up like the next town over.
00:08:09
Speaker
Signature move for William Wallace, you know, slicing and dicing his enemies. He used a two-handed Scottish sword called a claymore. Definitely his favorite moves. I enjoyed watching him use a an antler to stick into someone's throat at one point. that was That was cool. We'll get to that for sure. Yeah. I mean, if I'm also not spoiling his signature weapon here, but signature move since he was a child all throughout his old age, throwing rocks.
00:08:36
Speaker
ah Him and Hamish. He had the precision throwing rocks as the man with no name had with his pistol. Yep. We'll get to that too.
00:08:47
Speaker
His vibe check. I mean, I think he was inspirational and unhinged at the same time. Oh my God. He had me ready to run through a brick wall for Scotland. I'm like, yeah you know, I'll denounce my English citizenship and I will become Scottish for you.
00:09:04
Speaker
and dying in your beds many years from now. Would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!
00:09:32
Speaker
So many good quotes from this movie. You have no many idea how many times I've tried to quote his big inspirational speech on the battlefield out there. Incorrectly every time, but with Gusto.
00:09:42
Speaker
i what what What is the context of you trying to recite that speech? like What are you getting yourself into? Psyching his friends up to go out drinking. Let's say it's my senior year of high school and we're about to run a track meet and we just warmed up and I've got everyone around and we got to get everyone hyped up for a relay race or something.
00:10:00
Speaker
You go out there in your Scottish accent and um for for Scotland or something. Yeah. You know, it absolutely kills. I'm telling you it took put another shrimp on the Bobby.
00:10:12
Speaker
We're loose with our accents around here. Let's do the kill count though. Jordan is sneaking up on Chris. This could tie it up. I believe, right?
Wallace's Unconventional Tactics
00:10:19
Speaker
It's four to three now. Yeah, I'm writing high and I'm feeling confident enough to go first in this one.
00:10:24
Speaker
Okay. I'm going to say 35. That is only if we're not counting the montage scene where people are going around saying, I heard he killed 50 people. I heard he killed 100 with his bare hands.
00:10:36
Speaker
that That was really hearsay. That was put in there for theatrical pleasure. that yeah That's not actual kill count. So the real more confirmed stuff, 35. thirty five Okay. Yeah. I was going to ask the same question that Jordan asked.
00:10:48
Speaker
Does that count? in the context in the context of this, we can't count them because in that same context, they were saying he was seven feet tall and he craps thunder and everything. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to go lower.
00:11:02
Speaker
You're going price his right, me? Wait, no, maybe not. No. He's going to go $1. Wait, what did you say?
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's too high. You're not too high. Oh. The number is about 60. What? Really? Yeah. That's surprising. The number's about 60. I just watched that movie.
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Well, Jordan, you won 50% of those, which means you actually improved. So well done, sir. This was unraveling. This is supposed to be a quick tale of the tape just to talk about their their stats and stuff, but we got into it a little bit too soon. So now we have to take a little break.
00:11:41
Speaker
Let's take a break for our sponsor.
00:11:47
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:12:26
Speaker
It is important that you have SPF 15, at least, in your toothpaste. You don't want your teeth to get sunburned. Where do you find these guys?
00:12:36
Speaker
This was a weird one. I don't know who wrote this.
00:12:48
Speaker
All right, guys, let's start breaking down the characters. And we're going to start with Leonidas. He's got a pretty good resume. Started from an early age. I believe it said he was seven years old. It was in the opening scene. Yep.
00:12:58
Speaker
Seven years old. He went to Spartan school, apparently, right? I know he killed that wolf. That's pretty badass. That is pretty badass. As a seven-year-old, did this childhood of Leonidas remind you of a way more extreme version of Christian Wolfe's childhood from The Accountant?
00:13:16
Speaker
Yeah, hi I can see that. Like him and his brother getting beaten to death by an adult martial artist saying, sir, why are you having me do this to your children? yeah Except no one was questioning it in Sparta.
00:13:27
Speaker
That's exactly right Yeah, that's what I to say. That's what I was going to say. It seems like a much more of a normal thing back in those times. ah Speaking of back in those times, do you guys happen to know what time period this was in?
00:13:39
Speaker
Ooh, BC. I'm throwing out a guess of 500 AD and it's pretty embarrassing that we don't know this walking into the, we don't know. well we don't I went to, I went to Greece a few years ago and i want to say it was like the Greeks were before the Romans.
00:13:54
Speaker
It was pretty transitionary between those two. Like the Greeks became an, you know, an incredible civilization and then like it transitioned into being the Romans. Yeah. So I reckon it's like a thousand AD.
00:14:05
Speaker
i mean, 1000 BC. Oh, BC. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. it's right in between there. It's it's it's about 480 BC. they They pinpointed it because of the Battle of Thermopylae, I believe is how you pronounce it.
00:14:16
Speaker
And fun fact, this has got to be our earliest competitor, right? Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I was just thinking about that actually. going through the list and yeah, don't want to spoil it, but yeah, these are, they might be the two earliest.
00:14:30
Speaker
I mean, so far. Yes, they are definitely, well, no, I think there's one other in between those. There's one other that's similar. Yeah, very similar. Kind of embarrassing how little they technologically advance between William and Wallace and Keelyan Itis.
00:14:43
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. You know, i I imagine you tell him that he's going to fight someone from a thousand years in the future and he's like, oh shit, he's going to have laser beams and then he walks out with rocks. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. Up until now, our oldest dated competitor was the man with no name, like in the 1860s or whatever.
00:15:03
Speaker
So we've gone it back almost 2,000 years. Background training and skill set for King Leonidas. Well, we already know he trained in the Spartan military training system. It was called AGOGI, right? It rhymes with emoji.
00:15:17
Speaker
AGOGI is the name of that training method. I'm glad you're relating this to the audience. All the Gen Zers that are going to be listening. Yeah, he he became an absolute killer at an early age.
00:15:28
Speaker
Oh, so Egoji, you're talking about ah martial arts here. Yes. Let let me indulge a little bit. Oh, do you do martial arts? I do.
00:15:39
Speaker
I do Pencak Savat. Oh, nice. Indonesia. Yep. Nice callback. Now I do Egoji as well. Beautiful. ye I do have a funny thing, funny scenario here. The opening scene where they kind of set it up with that flashback of, of Leonidas as a, as a baby or whatever.
00:15:58
Speaker
Would it be hilarious if that newborn baby had painted on abs also?
00:16:04
Speaker
Isn't there a 300 knockoff movie? Yeah. Have you seen that? I have heard about it. Yeah. Wait, the porno version or B-movie version? Yeah.
00:16:15
Speaker
Never mind. I've said too much. Yeah. yeah you You know about a porno version? Link in the description. That'll be our advertiser next week. Body oil. Ron Jeremy's.
00:16:27
Speaker
Move over Zack Snyder. Ron Jeremy's 300. Preferred weapons. Obviously, this is BC. So it's kind of the primitive stabbing and bludgeoning type weapons that you and that you would imagine, right?
00:16:40
Speaker
Definitely the spear. The spear. Yeah. Yeah. He's bad with that. Like yeah throwing it. Yeah. Insane. Okay. And what do you know about some of their opponents? Some of Leonidas' opponents?
00:16:52
Speaker
I mean, he doesn't directly fight the god king, but that sounds like a pretty formidable opponent right there. Yeah. Yeah. An actual god. So when you're talking about tough opponents, Xerxes, the actual god king is is pretty high up there. Also the Persian empire.
00:17:07
Speaker
The entire. The entire Persian The entire population of Persia. Yep. And then I think they called the Asian opponents. I think they were the immortals. Yeah. His personal guard, the badass ninjas.
00:17:19
Speaker
Yeah. And ah the magicians as well with the grenades. Yep. Basically they were throwing fire.
00:17:32
Speaker
All right. You guys want to run the gauntlet on this dude? Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Hell yes. All right. Keyboard carnage.
'300' Movie Review
00:17:40
Speaker
We did find a good one here. i think Chris's accent might actually lend us helping hand in the delivery of this one.
00:17:47
Speaker
Okay, let's do this. Rarely has the human form been so shamelessly exalted, each abdominal muscle chiseled as if it by the gods themselves, each drop of glistening oil a sacred tribute to masculine perfection.
00:18:04
Speaker
They do not merely fight, they pose, flex, and glimmer beneath a sepia-toned sun, as though war were but a stage for their sculpted torsos.
00:18:16
Speaker
I did not watch a film. I bore witness to a 117 minute protein shake poured onto a marble statue. Truly cinema at its oiliest.
00:18:29
Speaker
Oh my God. Oh my God. Are we sure he watched 300 and not the porno? That is amazing. That worked out way better than I thought.
00:18:40
Speaker
That was poetic. This was like Richard Attenborough doing one of those planet Earth narrations. Unbelievable. And this was an actual this was an actual fan or a user ah review in Rotten Tomatoes or IMDb or something like that.
00:18:57
Speaker
Absolutely amazing. Yeah, it the internet is undefeated. it's Truly cinema at its oiliest. Yeah. They've gone too far. i mean, we didn't have to get too deep into this movie to find something where I think they went too far.
00:19:10
Speaker
Maybe ah facing, you know, 20,000 strong army and killing everybody in their path. I don't know. It's pretty solid. How about a seven-year-old killing a giant evil wolf?
00:19:21
Speaker
Yep. He was required to do this as a seven-year-old. Wait, so it was 100% like confirmed confirmed he was supposed to be seven when that happened. I thought they said seven. Yeah.
00:19:33
Speaker
Or that's when he started his training at least, but yeah, he he was, friends and then he grew up a little bit, but yes, I mean, he looks the actor, whoever portrays the young Leonidas looked really, really young. Yeah. But all of us to shame at what is that second grade question that kid at seven years old in a fair fight. Could I take him right now?
00:19:54
Speaker
Are you kidding me? nice show Show us your guns. Look at my i'm athletic man. What do you? What are you waiting right now? Steve, let me let me put it this way. If there was a giant like dire wolf type thing that was coming towards you and all you had was a long stick.
00:20:07
Speaker
Could you take it? No problem. All right. Fair enough.
00:20:13
Speaker
For your collection, what would you like to display, have on your shelf for when you have people over after your relay race?
Coveted '300' Memorabilia
00:20:20
Speaker
A bottle of the ah baby oil. Nice. I'm going with the airbrush. I feel like it would really bring out the best in me.
00:20:27
Speaker
To be fair, they were all pretty shredded. I read some stuff about their workouts. They they had some workout where they essentially never repeated an exercise and it was constantly keeping them XYZ, whatever. It sounded a pretty badass.
00:20:39
Speaker
But ah absolute cherry on top. I'll take the airbrush any day. Nice. In all seriousness, probably Spartan helmet would be pretty sick on the mantle. Yeah. That's what I said Spartan helmet for sure.
00:20:51
Speaker
That would look awesome. Yippee-ki-yay motherfucker. Did Leonidas have any favorite quotes? This one's super obvious that, I mean, it's like the tagline of the movie. Give it your best.
00:21:03
Speaker
This is Sparta! Not bad, not bad. I'm gonna give his other one when they're posted up in that pass right there, defending it. Army's coming to them for the first time.
00:21:15
Speaker
He stands up, gives this badass speech, and he finishes, no retreat, no surrender. That is Spartan law. We will stand and fight and die. No retreat, no surrender.
00:21:27
Speaker
That is Spartan law. That one's awesome. Both these guys are leaders of men. Can really amp you up. The inspiration was pretty high end in what they had to say. They weren't just barbarians. Spartans!
00:21:46
Speaker
Ready your breakfast and eat hearty. But tonight we dine in hell!
00:21:55
Speaker
but Okay. Awesome. These are good. These are good. I do. i have one other wildcard category. I just want to ask you guys here at one point, and it was toward the end of the movie, the queen also played by Cersei Lannister, by the way.
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah. She kind of gives a pretty moving argument to send in the and entire army. Right. And then Theron or Theron played by the dude from the wire.
00:22:18
Speaker
Right. Dominic West. Yeah. He steps up and he sarcastically does a slow clap. Now, this is 480 BC. There can't possibly be an earlier reference to the slow clap than 480 BC.
00:22:37
Speaker
Yeah. when did When did clapping become a thing? I don't know. When did sarcasm become a thing? Yeah. yeah Yeah. I mean, I don know. advanced civilization, you could call it. Like the Greeks are probably one of the first, at least in that area of the world.
00:22:53
Speaker
So yeah. i it when I'm crediting the the guy from the wire for inventing the slow clap over 2000 years ago.
00:23:03
Speaker
ah Did we pick the right character for Gerard Butler? I think we did, but he has a couple other good ones. Yeah, he's in ah he's in Rock and Roller. I'm a huge fan of Guy Ritchie movies. yep So he he plays, I think, a gangster or something in Rock and Roller and gets into antics and trouble.
00:23:21
Speaker
like typical Guy Ritchie style stuff. So, yeah but yeah yeah, I don't think he really kills anyone in that movie. Yeah. Also um he's in the Olympus has fallen series. So that his name was Mike Banning.
00:23:31
Speaker
One of these secret secret agent, military trained guys that ah modern guys that we have several of in the tournament. So we didn't really need them. This, this one totally makes sense.
00:23:49
Speaker
Let's break down William Wallace battle resume. Anything stand out for this guy? Chris, you got to have a problem with his main, with his main m MO here, right? Yeah. Hater of the English. Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:03
Speaker
I will. so I do want to go on record here and say that, you know, i I mentioned before that he, he had me ready to run through a brick wall for Scotland. William Wallace made me want to renounce my English citizenship and you know,
00:24:18
Speaker
Doherty, last name, Irish, you know, the Irish fought for him. So I would go to battle for him any day. One of my favorite characters, Stephen, the Irishman.
00:24:29
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah, that was really cool. So I think my my English friends won't love hearing that. Well, actually, my my one friend Callum, in fact, shout out to Callum. He's Scottish.
00:24:39
Speaker
So he's going to love hearing that. And then, uh, I get made fun of all the time for being English, uh, out here in the States. So my American friends are going to love, uh, love hearing that as well. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Hater of the English.
00:24:51
Speaker
Um, and basically, you know, he rallies the, the Scottish, you know, soldiers from many different clans, uh, to go to battle for Scotland and try to defeat England. And there's multiple, uh, battles within the film, uh, the,
00:25:10
Speaker
You know, he is the leader and he rallies the troops and he is right in the thick of it. He's not, he's not the cowardly King, sitting in the back, watching all of it happen. He's in the center, getting down and dirty, his hands bloody.
00:25:23
Speaker
killing everybody. Yeah. So yeah, it's really cool. Yeah. Mostly the English army. I think this is where we get into the similarities between him and King Leonidas, both of them born into war, born into combat, into death, seeing his father died at a young age. 300 is such a more theatrical movie that initially I was like, oh, he has it. And then looking at it pound for pound, their upbringing was so incredibly similar, just like they're fighting against the Persians, fighting against the English, fighting against these greater force.
00:25:51
Speaker
It was pretty impressive. Yeah. Now this was quite ah quite a ways later on, about 1280 to 1300 AD. And then Jordan, you were just kind of touching on this, but their background and training skillset, he had a pretty well-rounded upbringing too.
00:26:07
Speaker
He wasn't just a brute. He was a scholar as well. He was raised by his uncle. He was taken all around the world. He was educated and he compresses everyone, even the queen. I guess the princess of Wales.
00:26:19
Speaker
He starts belting out his Latin. He's got his French go in there. So he's clearly a great guy. And you start to see all his tactician mindset later throughout the movie. So this is definitely a warrior poet warrior scholar type. Yeah.
00:26:32
Speaker
Very well-rounded. Uh, then a great quote or like moment is when his dad is talking to him and he says, you know, I think he's holding a sword or something. And he says, you know, this doesn't make a man. he goes something along the lines of like, your wit makes you a man. And he points to his head. And then that's like a theme throughout is that he's like super smart guy. Very, uh, you like master tactician type.
00:26:54
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Well-rounded French Latin. Uh, that was from his uncle Argyle who was appalled that he didn't know how to speak Latin at an early age. So he took care of that along with his military training.
00:27:06
Speaker
Uh, Chris, you were so of started to talk about the preferred weapons. Yeah. Uh, obviously the broad sword or whatever, like a two, like that thing is like a two handed sword. Like that is huge. Um,
00:27:19
Speaker
and he uses it consistently in every battle almost i would say yeah you know your your typical medieval type weapons um you know mace you know the mace on the with the chain but also the mace just on the end of a stick and he's just bludgeoning people yeah and uh bow and arrow as well you see him to try hunting as well so yeah he's he's very well-rounded I'm going to say my my two favorite weapons are when he's first taking out after they kill his wife and he rides in on the horse and I think he's going to pull out a sword or something and he whips out literal nunchucks and he beats this dude's head in with nunchucks.
00:27:54
Speaker
That was hilarious. But number one weapon. In the first 30 minutes of the movie, every time you see him with a weapon, it's rocks. Steve said he's got the precision of the rocks there. It's how he won his wife.
00:28:06
Speaker
It's how he takes people out. This man's rock fiend. And I'll throw in another one. That's awesome. That antler thing. I think one of you guys mentioned it at the beginning. I love that thing. I made a note of it. yeah It had like a little nice finished handle on there and he's, it's a stabbing device.
00:28:21
Speaker
Yeah, that thing was incredible. And we talked about his opponents, tons of English english troops took care of all of them. I mean, that was wearing chain wearing chain mail. yeah Yes, yes.
00:28:40
Speaker
Let's run the gauntlet on Wallace. Keyboard Carnage. There's a good one here too for for for William Wallace. This is the actual review. Quote, cut to a jolly wedding party in Scotland, complete with dancing peasants and a fun competition where they throw rocks at each other's head.
00:28:57
Speaker
Everyone looks like they're at a Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome convention, except ironically for Mel Gibson, who turns up dressed like Fabio. it Not bad.
00:29:08
Speaker
Mad Max reference. He's got a hell of a mane of hair on him in this movie. I made a note of this. Is this the worst hair that we've seen so far?
00:29:18
Speaker
It's kind of a mullet. It's kind of too short in the front. And then it has like weird braids, but they're really sloppy. I thought it was beautiful. Yeah, you he made it look great. Okay. Running, you know, not running, sorry. Riding the horse with the wind in his hair.
00:29:32
Speaker
Yeah. They've gone too far. a pretty good one for, I got a pretty good one here, but what do you guys got? Yeah, I mean, the film won Best Picture and, you know, watch having watched it recently, it's from the 90s, 1995, and it holds up really well for being a movie from the Obviously, it won Best Picture, so I feel like it's just it's just made really well. So I feel like there's not many moments where, you know, you can say,
00:29:57
Speaker
that they went too far because it's all so realistic. It's all done really well. So so after he was wronged and betrayed, he goes on this badass vengeance tour, kicking in doors of everyone who wronged him.
00:30:10
Speaker
So he goes in with that ball and mace on horseback, a bow kicks the door and the guy thought he was dreaming. He bashes this guy's head in. Everyone runs into the room like they're going to stab him to death. And what does he do?
00:30:21
Speaker
He freaking runs his horse out of a, what is this? A 10 story window into a river flowing by jumps out, gets out of there. Not a scratch. That was some bad-ass stuff right there. That was like a, that was a mission impossible move.
00:30:34
Speaker
Yeah. That was like fast and furious, but in you medieval fast and furious. Yeah. He's like wheeling the horse on its way out. Yeah. That was pretty wild. When the guy was actually having a nightmare about getting killed by William Wallace. And then he rides in on a horse.
00:30:50
Speaker
there There was one that i that I would put in here kind of in the in the spirit of this category, which is, you know, should they be dead? um There was one time he was shot in the chest with an arrow, which I think could kill a guy right there.
00:31:03
Speaker
Then he just breaks it off, keeps fighting. A minute later, he's in a jousting competition where It looked like he lost, you know, he goes down, he's chasing but he was only playing possum. He was just pretending he was sandbagging.
00:31:15
Speaker
So yeah, that was pretty good. I did think that when I saw that ah moment where he was hit in the chest with the arrow, like it was right on his heart. yeah Right where is aorta? Yeah, totally. Totally. Bad placement for that.
00:31:28
Speaker
All right. What do you want for your collection? The lock of his hair. Oh,
00:31:35
Speaker
You and the hair still. Fair enough. Kind of creepy. No, wait. While we're talking about hair, did you see some of the other extras? You mean background artists? Yeah. Sorry. Did you see some of the other background artists? Is that what they called you? They had like dreads.
00:31:49
Speaker
They had like dreads yeah hanging off the side of their head. Like that was, that was fucked up. Yeah. That was, that was some bad hair. Yeah. Like like some humble county white people with dreads kind of hair. Yeah. Yeah. The, the one that jumped out to me and you know, unlike 300, this one was a little bit of a tearjerker, but the purple flower that Marin gave him as a child that he kept his entire life and he hands it to her. That's good one. And when he gets back with her, that was absolutely heartwarming.
00:32:12
Speaker
I take that put it on shelf. I went with something similar in a, in a sentimental type fashion as you did. I would choose that ball and chain weapon. I think it's called a flail that he'd bash that dude's head in. Another tearjerker.
00:32:31
Speaker
All right. Yippee-ki-yay, motherfucker. Oh, man. ah Do we have to wait any longer to do this? Freedom! Freedom!
00:32:50
Speaker
Yeah, the quote of
Memorable 'Braveheart' Quotes
00:32:52
Speaker
the movie. And there are so many. He really dragged it out, too. But I mean, he was being tortured. So give give him a break. I have a couple, not from Willie Marlis himself, but from Hamish.
00:33:04
Speaker
Super thick Scottish accent. when he's trying to convince him not to go ah to Edinburgh because he thinks that it's a trap set by all the nobles. And he goes, nest of scheming bastards.
00:33:17
Speaker
They couldn't agree on the color of shite.
00:33:23
Speaker
Loved it. Well done. what did What did I just say? They couldn't even agree on the color of shit. Nice.
00:33:33
Speaker
Yeah, that was a good one. And then one more, sorry. I thought it was really ruthless. Longshanks, King Edward of England, the battle that ah they defeat William Wallace's army.
00:33:46
Speaker
The guy is asking if he wants to send the archers in first. And he says, no, arrows cost money. Send the Irish. The cost nothing. You connected with that one. that one That one immediately made me renounce my English harry that my English citizenship. Unbelievable. i was like, I don't want to be associated with this country anymore.
00:34:11
Speaker
Yeah. Unreal. I, there's, I'm throwing in a couple here. So when they're going up their first big battle, they're negotiating with those English commanders there. He's already ripped him a new one. They're losing their shit. And he really wants to put salt in the wounds there.
00:34:26
Speaker
And he says, and I'm not finished before we let you leave. Your commander must cross that field, present himself before this army, put his head between his legs and kiss his own ass. I don't know what accent that was, but that was, that was honestly great. not That was really, that was really good. Yeah.
00:34:42
Speaker
I love that. Love that quote as well. Yeah. Yeah. Did we pick the right character for Mel Gibson? That's exactly what I wanted to talk about. He has so many good characters. Yes, ah this is his most iconic character. I'm going to say we did pick the right one.
00:34:56
Speaker
But part of me is bummed that we don't feature one of my other favorite Mel Gibson movies that I watched a lot as a kid called The Patriot, where once again, hundreds of years later, there he is fighting the English once again.
00:35:08
Speaker
Those bastards. But as a colonial American, after his kids are killed, he's going at them with the tomahawks. Super badass movie. Super badass Mel Gibson character. and I also watched that a lot as a kid.
00:35:20
Speaker
Oh, that was such... ah Was always on Spike TV or yeah Sci-Fi Channel or something like that? Spike TV, yes. yeah Awesome. Yeah, no, we we got the right one though, right? We got the right one. He has tons of really good ones. One of the favorites is Martin Riggs' Lethal Weapon.
00:35:34
Speaker
There were some comedic elements to it, but so but we can't forget how decorated he was. He was special forces, military trained, like one of the greatest marksmen in the world, and also a complete lunatic, had a death wish. so But yeah, he he would have been a good one.
00:35:48
Speaker
And Mad Max. He was Mad Max. Yeah.
00:35:58
Speaker
Let's do, let's, look we got, we we we're drilling down. we got to drill this down. We got to find a winner. We talked a little bit about all of them. We really dug in here. Let's keep going. I have a question to start. Do we penalize either or both of these competitors for these minor points for Wallace?
00:36:14
Speaker
The most brutal scene or scenes, I guess, isn't even him dishing it out. It's him getting brutalized. And for Leonidas, do we penalize him for this? One major thing that we use to determine the winner is their excellence compared to their peers. You know, strength of schedule kind of a thing, right? In other words, we can't use the argument that Ted Lasso would beat Leonidas Because he maybe he has a gun. All right. We can't use that. So with that in mind, does Leonidas actually get downgraded a little because that Agogi training was supposedly for literally every Spartan boy in the world?
00:36:49
Speaker
did he Was he head and shoulders above everyone? You know what I mean? I'm just i'm just throwing it out there Devil's Advocate. Do we penalize either or both of these guys for either of those points? No, absolutely not. Yeah, I don't think so. I think the resilience of Wallace is yeah crazy.
00:37:04
Speaker
That is a huge deal. I think in you know and you know if you're fighting one-on-one in a cage, you know if you can take a beating and not stop and your your opponent tires out, ah you can you know come back and win if you have the stamina.
00:37:21
Speaker
Okay. For Leonidas. Yes, other Spartans may have the same level of training and skill as him. They may have the same brutality and mindset that he has.
00:37:32
Speaker
But one thing that it didn't really focus on in the training and what makes him the goddamn king is all of the damn skills that he has as a tactician, as a leader, as someone who can inspire everyone. That's what sets him apart. That's what makes him King Leonidas and not build a Spartan.
00:37:48
Speaker
Um, who had the, who had the tougher strength of schedule since I'm used that phrase already? I mean, 300 is so much more theatrical and, and over the top, you know, talking about how they defeated an army of 20,000 plus.
00:38:01
Speaker
So Leonidas obviously has like a, a much, you know bigger, better battle resume or you want to say, but, um, you know, maybe the theatrical but part shouldn't be taken into account so much and,
00:38:12
Speaker
Okay. The over-exaggeration? Yeah. I don't know. Okay. Fair enough. you guys have any favorite moments? i'll I'll start. I'll just say one of the most satisfying, of course, was the revenge scene where he slits the throat of that sheriff who killed his brand new wife. Of course, that's very, very satisfying.
00:38:31
Speaker
That was super satisfying for sure. The lead after that scene where he does the coolest move he does in the whole movie, I think, where he throws the sword and it goes thing and it flings around in the air, stabs the guy. That was badass.
00:38:44
Speaker
Sorry, their fighting style, like what makes them dangerous? They're just so similar. It's like, can you imagine them going going at each other one-on-one? It's like kind of crazy that they they would be pulling out all the stops, all the moves, like their moves would be so similar.
00:38:58
Speaker
you know, it's like who would win? yeah It's like really hard to decide. Yeah, I'll say this too. Let me talk about a ah scene that I thought was equally brutally realistic without getting without getting theatrical at all in 300.
00:39:14
Speaker
One of the early scenes, just the some messenger shows up. Leonidas just in our crude, ruthless move. He just front kicks this fucking guy right in the chest and he falls down into a well. And I'm like, okay, that is as far from overly theater, theatric as you can get right there. Just a brutal, something that anybody would do just a front kick to the chest. And he goes falling 500 feet.
00:39:40
Speaker
He was like the Anderson Silva of Sparta. Just savage. There was no turning back after that. k Killed the messenger. Like that's asking for war. Let's let's go over and the X factors here for these guys. What makes them dangerous in a tournament format?
00:39:56
Speaker
I'll start with William Wallace here. i mean, we're talking about a one on one. So unfortunately, really, for both of them, we're not going to rely on their ability to inspire others here. I think something that really sets him apart is his ability to MacGyver up weapons, tactics, whether it's filling the fields with oil or building all those giant spears.
00:40:16
Speaker
He knows how to do more with less. And it shows a skill set and a mindset that's going to be really dangerous out there on the battlefield. His pain tolerance, as we see at the end, is through the roof. And I'd say even more than King Leonidas, this man gets goddamn blood lusted.
00:40:32
Speaker
On the flip side, looking at King Leonidas here, this man also has an incredible pain tolerance. There's that scene at the end where they're all getting shot with arrows. All his boys look like pincushions out there, and he's looking like a fucking voodoo doll.
00:40:44
Speaker
Arrows sticking out of him left and right. I think he gets... not quite as blood lusted, but he gets focused in a way that you don't see William Wallace do. He gets angry, but unlike William Wallace, you don't see him getting blindsided all the time.
00:40:58
Speaker
So think that's going to lean towards King Leonidas. Maybe it's good call. Really good points. the The one thing that I'll say about Wallace, a lot of this in a battle has to do with confidence. Wallace was reluctant ah kind of a reluctant hero at first, of course. he he didn't He just wanted to grow his crops. He wanted to be a farmer, whatever, and got kind of forced into it on based on revenge.
00:41:20
Speaker
But then he became very single-minded. And then, in fact, I think there's even evidence of him believing his rising mythical status, right? They're like, he was seven feet tall. He was, you know, he had laser beams coming out of his eyes, whatever, all this stuff.
00:41:35
Speaker
And I actually think that towards the end, we saw people trying, his his allies trying to talk him out of it. Don't do this. Don't do this. It's not worth it. And instead, he felt like he could beat the entire English army by himself. So the confidence level is sky high. Also, as it turned out, probably not a smart move.
00:41:55
Speaker
I was going to say the hubris really could ah backfire on him. Yep. I also wonder about Leonidas. This guy had nothing going on. This was 480 BC or whatever. What else did he have to do besides kill people?
00:42:06
Speaker
Had to be bored out of his mind. There was no new episode of Last of Us on Sundays. Yeah, exactly. yeah Nothing going on. Yeah.
00:42:22
Speaker
We got to pick a winner.
The Verdict: Leonidas Triumphs
00:42:23
Speaker
This one's as close as ever. i think we've said that before, but man, this one's crazy. They're very, very similar. We got to pick a path to victory and kind of start deciding who we might take. Do you guys think you could pick a winner at this point?
00:42:35
Speaker
Definitely. I think I do. Okay. All right. let ah let Let me start off here. So I fully agree that the this is the closest matchup that we've had yet. And this is absolutely hard to pick a victor going into this.
00:42:48
Speaker
I really want to root for the underdog William Wallace here. And after seeing the movies back to back, I was thinking if Braveheart was filmed by Zack Snyder in that same cinematic 300 style, it would be just as bad ass as 300.
00:43:01
Speaker
And, you know, Braveheart might take the cake on this one. So that's what I walked into this thinking, talking through it, realizing it. I do have to give it to King Leonidas. What really sets him apart is the way that he's focused, the way that William Mala seems get blindsided by people and often betrayed.
00:43:18
Speaker
I think his head is not fully there. His heart is absolutely in it, but his head is not there in the same way as King Leonidas. I also think when it comes down to training, yes, they both trained, but King Leonidas has the stronger training. And as they touch on, the Scots were not allowed to train with weapons, right? They're training with rocks. They're training with things like that, that they try and apply towards weapon skills later on in the movie.
00:43:41
Speaker
So what, what won it for him was not his weapon skills. Whereas King Leonidas, he's a badass with anything he touches. So I think when they're going meet up one-on-one in the ring, sorry, Wallace going to have to go to Leonidas.
00:43:52
Speaker
Okay. One, one pick for Leonidas. Wow. You, uh, pretty much convinced me, uh, of Leonidas. That was, that was a really good breakdown. Um, I was leaning, ah William Wallace just because the film was much more realistic. It wasn't as theatrical.
00:44:13
Speaker
it wasn't over the top. It made me feel like, you know, I could fight for him or I, you know, I could maybe be him like that would be That would be really cool go in fight ah for for what I believe in.
00:44:24
Speaker
Whereas, you know, Leonidas is just over the top and the cinematography and the acting is is very um corny or cheesy almost in a way. But, you know, that's that's sort of what the vibe of the movie is supposed to be. Right.
00:44:39
Speaker
ah like I don't want to interrupt your your vibe, but I'll ask you this. Are you looking at Leonidas in a more scaled down version that we looked at Machete a couple of weeks ago, where you're almost penalizing him a little bit for the theatrical and over exaggerated style?
00:44:56
Speaker
I think I am. Yeah. yeah I think I am a little bit just because it's, it's probably not as believable. It's almost as if the movie portrays Leonidas as the Scots,
00:45:09
Speaker
believed William Wallace was. um You know, all the Scots are talking about how William Wallace did all these things, you know, he's seven feet tall, killed 100 people. Same thing with the 300 movies. So, you know, I guess in that way, they are kind of similar.
00:45:23
Speaker
At the end of the day, William Wallace's resilience is a huge factor. His bloodlust, you know, the heart that he has to fight for his country, um I think is is a huge part of you know how someone could win and come from behind.
00:45:40
Speaker
And so you know I originally thought William Wallace and you know like I said, he had me ready to fight for a country that I'm not even from. So um yeah, I think I'm going to go with ah William Wallace.
00:45:52
Speaker
Okay. right. I can't even argue with that. I mean, it's, it's so close. I can't argue with that, but I'm going to, of course, coming in here today, did all my research and I had a winner. I'm going to stick with my winner. You know, I say both of these guys are just trained, absolute killers, tons of the similar battlefield type experience.
00:46:12
Speaker
And they were the best in that scenario in their, in their days. They were definitely head and shoulders above their peers and their opponents at the same time. So here's my take.
00:46:23
Speaker
Wallace, I feel, is a reluctant warrior. He only gets involved when he's pushed, right? The murder of his wife, um is his father was killed as a youngster, things like that.
00:46:34
Speaker
Leonidas just plain kills. It's all he was trained to do since he was seven years old. So I i would say William Wallace kills for a cause, Leonidas kills just because that's what I'm saying for these guys.
00:46:47
Speaker
And because of that, the single mindedness, I think Wallace would be happy being a farmer. Leonidas has to just fucking kill people.
00:46:58
Speaker
So I am right or wrong. I'm taking Leonidas and I think we have our winner. King Leonidas is going to be advancing to the next round.
00:47:09
Speaker
We'll announce who he fights here soon. um But the fact is Leonidas defeated William Wallace. And quite honestly, this podcast is all about fictional characters.
00:47:21
Speaker
It's all about fictional battles and it's based solely on our opinions. But now that we've selected a winner, King Leonidas, as we say, this is no longer an opinion.
00:47:31
Speaker
This is a goddamn fact. Leonidas is the winner. All right guys. Great job. We're going to call it a night, but we have our winner, as we said, and now we're already thinking about next week.
00:47:43
Speaker
So stay tuned. Tomorrow we announce who the next matchup will be. And I would love everyone to follow our Instagram and our Facebook because we want to hear what you have to say. We want to hear your early votes.
00:47:54
Speaker
And we also want to hear what we did to that tonight. What did you think of who we picked tonight? Were we wrong? Are we out of our goddamn minds? Yeah. Tell us, get on social media and the best ones we're going to read on the air. Maybe we'll do a keyboard carnage on ourselves this time, but that's it guys.
00:48:10
Speaker
Have a good night.
00:48:14
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the fictional fighting championship podcast, the world's premier destination for very serious conversations about completely made up fights produced by Chris Doherty against his better judgment.