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Episode 179: What If?
52 Plays2 days ago
Southampton – We look back and have a thought experiment and see if anything would have been better if we HADN'T sacked Russel Martin.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Daily Southampton'
00:00:09
Global Sports Podcast Network
Hello and welcome back to the Daily Southampton, part of the Global Sports Podcast Network. My name is Greg Elliott and as always joined by my good friend and wonderful co-host, Zach Ingo Finch. How you doing mate?
00:00:22
Zak
Yeah, not too bad, mate. Not too bad.
00:00:23
Global Sports Podcast Network
good
What If: Southampton FC's Alternate Reality
00:00:24
Zak
Try it.
00:00:24
Global Sports Podcast Network
Today, we are going to do what all podcasts do and rip off a popular theory and make it our own.
00:00:33
Global Sports Podcast Network
We're going to the equivalent of Marvel's What If, but it's Saints What And based off of you know, recent interviews and events, we're going What If Russell Martin Didn't Get Fired?
00:00:48
Global Sports Podcast Network
It's going to be a controversial episode. I'm sure that we alone in just between the two of us have contrasting opinions. i just I'm just getting that vibe heading into it.
00:00:56
Zak
moon
00:00:59
Global Sports Podcast Network
But let's let's start with with it.
Russell Martin's Media Appearances
00:01:00
Global Sports Podcast Network
did Did you see that interview, Zach? Have you just seen the clips?
00:01:05
Zak
I listen to...
00:01:05
Global Sports Podcast Network
so I watched the whole thing.
00:01:06
Zak
I don't watch the whole thing. listen to bits of it. part Part of me... it does feel very weird that he's currently doing the media rounds, right? And it's either because either the money's running out, which I find wild considering the amount of compensation he was probably paid, or alternatively, he's gearing himself up to get himself another job and trying to be like, wow, the reason being is I just wasn't backed and that's why I was, why we didn't win.
00:01:30
Zak
And I'm like, hmm. So I have a few opinions, but also, like, I've also paid attention and watched all of the Jurich matches and they weren't much better.
00:01:40
Global Sports Podcast Network
No?
Sympathy and Challenges Faced by Russell Martin
00:01:41
Zak
So, yeah, what what what what insights do you have from these?
00:01:42
Global Sports Podcast Network
No, I'm right there with it. And, you know... no i watched I watched the whole thing and it did make me feel more sympathetic towards Martin, to be honest, than than perhaps I had been.
00:01:54
Global Sports Podcast Network
I mean, it's still his fault. He was still too stubborn, right?
00:01:57
Zak
Yeah, like, this is this is where I'm at.
00:01:58
Global Sports Podcast Network
But he doesn't dispute that. He still is stubborn enough in in that belief. but But some of the things hes you know he said are right. Some of our players aren't good enough. We did have a weak squad.
00:02:09
Global Sports Podcast Network
And also, I hark back that I think that who got very unlucky quite early on, that set the tone. Because I think back to some of the games, and there were there were three games that I can think of where bad VAR decisions ruined what would have been a win.
00:02:27
Global Sports Podcast Network
And if he had those points why you know by that by that point of that Spurs game, I don't think it turns like that. And I think maybe he does keep his job.
00:02:38
Global Sports Podcast Network
I think that... that it's all of those things coming together. and And, you know, as we look at this and talk about what if, the the honest answer for me with what if is at this point, we're either flirting with relegation or relegated, truthfully, but building towards next season with Russell Martin at the helm is where I think
Player Signings and Performance Issues
00:03:02
Global Sports Podcast Network
we'd be at this point. I don't think that I think if he survives that game, I don't think he you know doesn't survive the rest of the season.
00:03:10
Global Sports Podcast Network
It's genuinely my my feeling on it. how but What about you? What are your thoughts on it, mate?
00:03:16
Zak
I think there's a lot of things. it's It's the signings that he was talking about not being backed. The signings that he wanted to make sure he got over the door. Ryan Ramsdale, which is a good signing to get over the door.
00:03:28
Zak
Um... Um... Charlie Taylor, who didn't appear that much under Martin and has basically not appeared since, and at one point was talking about going to Hull. Ryan Fraser, who played a little bit under him, had a bad game against, what want to say, Leicester, which caused him to probably get a bit of more flack than I think that he should have. But now he's just here collecting wages and hasn't played in forever. It doesn't mean i don't like the guy, it just means that ultimately he's not playing football and is being paid.
00:03:56
Zak
And like... That shows you, think you're sort of putting a lot of the blame onto two recruitments. Say Sporz is in charge and we suddenly get some really, really good players to play in those positions and we do a little bit better. Sure.
00:04:11
Zak
If he'd stayed in charge, I think that, you know, we would probably might have done slightly better. But one of the things that we'd have missed out on is, you know, Chelsea's loan would have probably terminated Uga Chukwu, I reckon.
00:04:24
Zak
We would have probably... So we'd have lost both of the players at that point. Adam Armstrong, I imagine, would probably have stayed because he would be playing significantly more. Whether or not Ben Merton-Diaz would be staying, who knows? Because it turns out he wasn't a ahmarph Russell Martin pick.
00:04:39
Zak
But... I think it changes the dynamic of the squad a lot, right? Like, Solomana and Onoatu, realistically, have broken through because they have been...
00:04:47
Global Sports Podcast Network
They'd have been gone in January,
Relegation Speculations with Martin
00:04:49
Global Sports Podcast Network
right?
00:04:49
Zak
Yeah, but that's where I'm at.
00:04:50
Global Sports Podcast Network
well but By hook or by crook, they wouldn't be here.
00:04:53
Zak
So, i think maybe we would have done slightly better. I think that... we would have been slightly weakened, especially financially. i don't I think that we could potentially get a bit more money for Sulemana and Onomachu in the summer this year than if we had tried to get rid of them in January because Martin had never played them.
00:05:07
Global Sports Podcast Network
I
00:05:12
Zak
I don't think it would have had an effect on some other players. I don't think that we would, you know, see a resurgence of Bella Kochap or anything like that. I don't think that we would have seen the weird...
00:05:23
Zak
shoving in centre-backs where centre-backs weren't belonging apart from when previously he'd done that. I don't think we'd have seen the falling out with downs at the level that we saw either because you know he was clearly not getting the game time behind Ugachukwu.
00:05:32
Global Sports Podcast Network
i look agree
00:05:37
Zak
So it's it's kind of like a double-edged sword in the sense that there are some players that have performed better that we wouldn't have expected to perform as good under Russell Martin. But likewise, there are players that have gone out and gone on loan and that probably would have performed better with him.
00:05:53
Zak
it's whenever you have, so somebody that studied history, sure as anyone who's long-term knows, one of the, like alternative history is a fascinating talking point because ultimately it's a moot point, but it is interesting, especially in these sort of scenarios to what would be hugely different. and And I think maybe you're right. I don't think we're flying with relegation. I think we're still relegated.
00:06:18
Zak
still think we're probably,
00:06:18
Global Sports Podcast Network
yeah yeah Do you think we're still relegated this early? but Being the earliest relegated team in Premier League history, do you think that's still a milestone we hit with Ross Martin? Or you think we've got more points to get
00:06:29
Zak
So after that Spurs game, what is going to change to make the further games not get worse, I think is the big question for me.
00:06:40
Zak
What would have been the catalyst for change? Would it have been that we fight up to the international break and then maybe come back from that and do slightly better? Yeah.
00:06:46
Global Sports Podcast Network
but Let's not forget the games building up to that. There were also some real key players that were injured. key Key Russell Martin players that were out with injury. like We're talking Flynn Downs. Yeah.
00:06:57
Zak
Yeah, and obviously, but the problem the problem with that as well is is is what we've discussed about in the first place, which is our squad depth is awful.
00:07:06
Global Sports Podcast Network
yeah
00:07:06
Zak
But the problem is is that that is something that a Russell Martin system, as you've pointed out as well, relies on because fitness is not the main forte. And we would continue to have these problems this season. We would continue to have these problems next season going into the championship.
00:07:21
Zak
Yeah. I just don't think that he was the solution to any of the problems that we currently have or will
Debating the Rehire of Russell Martin
00:07:28
Zak
have. And I think that we could potentially do exactly the same thing next season, go down, maybe do it right again with him. And then if we were to come back up,
00:07:38
Zak
the naivety would still be there.
00:07:39
Global Sports Podcast Network
Back to square one.
00:07:41
Zak
Yeah.
00:07:41
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, 100%.
00:07:41
Zak
And alternatively, if they decided to bring someone in charge of footballing operations, which I think they were looking into doing before he was fired as well. What happens if we get to the end of this season and Spores goes, no, I don't want Martin in charge anymore.
00:07:52
Zak
And then we end up having an entire season because that is that is also thing that very much could have happened. Because say we're in this position now where we're not quite relegated, we're bottom of the season. Sorry, bottom of the table.
00:08:04
Zak
I still think they probably would have made the decision later of down the line because if you're going to have somebody that's that stubbornly sticking to their principles and saying it's because club isn't the club isn't backing me to turn my team into Man City, despite the fact that that's never going to happen.
00:08:21
Zak
It's very, especially with the players that like, I would feel more sympathy towards him and feel more sympathy that we would have done better. If the players that he hadn't named as players that he definitely wanted to bring in, that he fought for a players like Charlie Taylor, where I'm like, that's the extent of your premier league ambition.
00:08:35
Global Sports Podcast Network
yeah I agree. i think that's a rent.
00:08:38
Zak
And that's, that's, that's where I think things like that. and And, and Ryan Fraser, who like we'd forgotten about by the time that, like personally, me and you had forgotten about by deadline day. And then all of a sudden he was brought in and you're like, oh man, yeah, no, you're right.
00:08:52
Zak
So he can have a nice heart heart and reunion with him and Adam Armstrong.
00:08:54
Global Sports Podcast Network
and you know Frankly, a player who was surprisingly positive squad rotation player in the championship, right?
00:09:02
Zak
yeah
00:09:03
Global Sports Podcast Network
Like everyone was like, oh yeah, he comes on off the bench and does a good job, which is fine. at As a positive surprise, the league below, but yeah, I don't know.
00:09:11
Zak
this This is my point, is that he didn't have championship.
00:09:12
Global Sports Podcast Network
I've got...
00:09:14
Zak
The problem is is he was he's talking about how he wasn't back properly. But when you tell me the extent of your ambition is to sign Charlie Taylor and Ryan Fraser, Charlie Taylor, a left back, he was from a being demoted Burnley team.
00:09:18
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:09:28
Zak
I have to question what would have massively changed over the course of the season that could have resulted in us winning. Do I think we could have been better off? Yeah, for sure.
00:09:38
Zak
Because I think that Juric was... George did the same thing, but worse.
00:09:44
Global Sports Podcast Network
Alright.
00:09:44
Zak
Sorry, I'll let you get a word in their choice, mate.
00:09:46
Global Sports Podcast Network
No, that's fine. I i think I agree with most of your points. I think we'd be... I think we'd probably have enough points to not be the worst. to I think we'd be above...
00:09:55
Zak
Yeah, we've like 15, 16. I don't think there'll be much between us.
00:09:58
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah. oh you actually I actually...
00:10:00
Zak
we make We make Ipswich and Leicester look better. people People
00:10:03
Global Sports Podcast Network
The magic
Fans' Nostalgia and Managerial Comparisons
00:10:03
Global Sports Podcast Network
number I... The magic number I've put in my brain that I got to was actually only 13. Yeah, I just... I don't know.
00:10:03
Zak
have not paid attention to how bad they are.
00:10:14
Global Sports Podcast Network
You're right. Okay, I've got a rephrasing of the same question that focuses on a different thought path that might phrase it interesting.
00:10:21
Zak
okay
00:10:23
Global Sports Podcast Network
But first, a message from our partners at Bionique.
00:11:04
Global Sports Podcast Network
Okay, and we are back. Okay, i've I've changed my mind a bit. I think that the other way I was the other way i was going to ask it is more interesting, I think.
00:11:16
Zak
Okay.
00:11:17
Global Sports Podcast Network
Would you take Russell Martin back next season?
00:11:21
Global Sports Podcast Network
Proven that he can get a clearly poor Saints team promoted from the Championship up to the Premier League.
00:11:30
Zak
No, because i i don't I don't think that he learned his lesson. I don't think that firing him has learned it. I think he is gearing himself up to take charge of Leicester or probably not an Ipswich.
00:11:44
Zak
wouldn't be surprised if he ends up at Leicester next season. And i I worry that the same mistakes will be had. And i think from a I think he was fantastic at building a sense of positivity around the club after...
00:11:58
Zak
the absolute sort of tanking of relegation. But you can see from his sort of favourites club and sort of the boo-hooing management and the... Not boo-hooing management. These sort of... Whilst it's really, really lovely, like I remember hearing that that Joe Rothwell story about how he sent individual notes to the players and this and the other.
00:12:18
Zak
The problem is, is like, look what happened then with Downs later. Throw his toys out of the plan because he didn't get to move to Whipswich. You know, people going in out on loan because they miss him so much. And it's like... it it When you have a a figurehead like that, it's the focal point. right Look at Alex Ferguson at Manchester United.
00:12:34
Zak
Once you lose a figurehead like that, the everything around it then collapse. I think of this is a dumb, weird history comparison as well, but like Alexander the Great's empire, right the instant he died, it collapsed into four different empires.
00:12:48
Zak
Where I'm at is that like a solution to a problem is not to bring something back, especially if those problems will not be fixed by bringing that person back in. And I think that the problems that we have as a club and the problems we have in a club culture will not simply be fixed by bringing Russell Martin back.
00:13:03
Zak
I think maybe the fans wouldn't be mad about it. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But I just don't see next time around what's going to be different.
00:13:10
Zak
I just...
00:13:10
Global Sports Podcast Network
dis oh okay I both agree and I disagree.
00:13:14
Global Sports Podcast Network
I agree that we shouldn't take Russell Martin and back, to be clear. Let's put that out on the table before anything gets misconstrued. but I don't think it's good idea him coming back. I disagree in the fact that I think that most fans wouldn't be happy with it, because I think that there's two trains of thought, and both of them look bad.
00:13:30
Global Sports Podcast Network
One is, why did we sack him in the first place if we do that?
00:13:34
Global Sports Podcast Network
And the so the second becomes... Yeah, the other yeah other train of thought is the the same train of thought that got him fired in the first place, right?
00:13:44
Global Sports Podcast Network
Like, was it cheaply?
00:13:44
Zak
I think it's i think it's it's more one those things as a fan base because of the recent success we had of 10 years down the line. We're incredibly nostalgic, right? Don't get me wrong. like I understand that's a phenomenon, like not not just in our team.
00:14:01
Zak
But if you if you talk to people like me and Oscar, like one of the things that Oscar would constantly was talking about off-camera to me yesterday was like, oh, well, when I do an FPL, I'll pick loads of X-Saints players. And as somebody that that's played you know FIFA, I'll bring back Romeu and Yoshida.
00:14:14
Global Sports Podcast Network
Mm-hmm.
00:14:15
Zak
And if like when I was down the championship,
Martin's Charismatic Influence on Team Dynamics
00:14:16
Zak
at one point, I'd bring in Wanyama. And it's like a weird thing, especially, but it seems very evident with Saints fans that we we almost long for what we've had, right?
00:14:26
Zak
But when it comes to managerial appointments, like, straight after Nathan Jones went. It was like, oh, miss Hassenhutel. And then when we were in with Sellers, it was like, may as well have just kept Hassenhutel. This guy was done a disservice.
00:14:37
Zak
Admittedly, I've not really seen the same sentiments as Nathan Jones, but also I have seen some people under Dürich been like, maybe Nathan Jones wasn't given a good enough chance, which is probably true, to be clear.
00:14:46
Global Sports Podcast Network
I think that might be more of an indictment on Juric Bull than anything, to be honest, mate.
00:14:50
Zak
yeah but
00:14:50
Global Sports Podcast Network
That's...
00:14:51
Zak
there you go. So what I think has actually happened. And one of the reasons I think, you know, I think that there are nostalgic glasses that can be put on that. People want that same feeling that having the club under Russell Martin felt and like, you know, same thing with passing who will being sort of a very likable figure,
00:15:08
Zak
Russell Martin was very, very charismatic. We swapped a very charismatic guy for a sort of blunt, older know Eastern European man who literally ruined Alfie House's life by giving him one-word interview answers for most of the questions that he asked at press conferences.
00:15:25
Global Sports Podcast Network
Thank you.
00:15:54
Zak
it's they should be playing for the team that are paying their wages. It's not the manager they're paying out of pocket for them. And I understand that also that like cult-like mechanics like that come into play in all walks of life. like me and you, we have a really good boss who we get on with a lot.
00:16:08
Zak
It's probably one of the main reasons we actually in our job, if he left, we probably would also feel that way. And obviously these people are human, but I feel like that they're not going to be able to move on and the club and the team isn't going to be able to move on from that if you don't change.
00:16:23
Zak
You can't, because then also i don't think it would happen ever because it would be admitting, wow, that was a huge mistake that we let him go. Whilst also acknowledging that we took too long to let him go.
00:16:34
Zak
It just seems a really, really, it would be a really, really bizarre thing to take place. And I understand why people liked Russell Martin and I understand why maybe he'll go on to be a really great manager one day.
00:16:50
Zak
but his inability to adapt, be flexible, and I'm not a big fan of this kind of blaming it all on the, well, I just didn't get the backing, where I'm like, in fact, if anything, they backed you a little bit too much.
00:17:03
Zak
It's why we're in this problem.
00:17:04
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, back in the wrong direction where the squad isn't good enough, to be fair.
00:17:04
Zak
So... so maybe we were being doing slightly better. We'd still have it. and And he said, even he held his hands up to that. Maybe he showed a bit too much loyalty.
00:17:15
Zak
Maybe we should have done a Nottingham Forest. Maybe we should have just broken financial fair play and take it, so took the hit when it came to, you know, fines and stuff, because let's face it, that's the only way that we're really going to be able to stay in these sort of say, say competitive, but,
00:17:29
Zak
I just don't think that going back to him will be good for any party involved because it will also, also I think that the time it would take for people to flip,
00:17:40
Zak
would be as much shorter fuse this time around as well. Like, think think what happens when we go down next season and we, like, lose 5-0 to Preston because we've we've started playing out from the back again. And the players the new players aren't used to it as much.
00:17:49
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:17:51
Zak
And then everyone's like, oh, here we go. and And we had a we had a leaky defence.
00:17:53
Global Sports Podcast Network
Here we go. Same here.
00:17:55
Zak
And I don't think you can play that style. And he said he'd lived by the door of sword and he died by the sword. He died by the sword. You don't just get to... Unfortunately, you just get to walk up from a battlefield and go straight back into fighting again. That's just not how it works.
00:18:08
Global Sports Podcast Network
All right.
00:18:08
Zak
So...
00:18:09
Global Sports Podcast Network
I'll take your word for it, mate.
00:18:09
Zak
I would be like that.
00:18:10
Global Sports Podcast Network
with you're the You're the history expert. I'll take your word on that one.
00:18:12
Zak
Often when people fall in battle, Greg, they don't get back up.
00:18:13
Global Sports Podcast Network
All right. do Okay, we'll come back to some closing thoughts, but first a message from our partners at Zencaster.
00:18:25
Global Sports Podcast Network
Here at the Global Sports Podcast Network, we spent a lot of time selecting our delivery platform. Zencaster came out the clear winner. With 4K video recording from your phone and AI editing that automatically removes all those ums and ahs, it's super easy to start a podcast that sounds great and is delivered efficiently.
Evaluating Player Performances Under Different Managers
00:18:42
Global Sports Podcast Network
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00:18:47
Global Sports Podcast Network
Okay, so we're back. look Taking a lot of your points on board, i think you're you're completely right. I don't know if, even thinking back on it, if we really would be in a better position if we hadn't have sacked him this season and we're sacking him now. you know, sacking him in the same way Juric has gone as soon as relegation confirmed. its It'd be going out with a bit of a whimper either way and it's, you know, I don't think that
00:19:06
Zak
but
00:19:13
Global Sports Podcast Network
there are many managers that would have been able to do a lot better, to be honest. is It's been a tough season.
00:19:18
Zak
No, but but then also look at Leicester, right? And Ipswich have stayed with McKenna because, like, Ipswich are bit of a different, in my opinion, unique position, right? they that With us, there is a level of expectation that is higher because we have been in the Premier League previously, not so long ago.
00:19:34
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:19:35
Zak
And, you know, but at the same time, it's funny because Ipswich are one of the ones that actually came up and they are higher than Leicester. But, you know... It's one of...
00:19:45
Zak
What was my point? I'm trying to get to my point. i'm very I've word-saladed myself a little bit too hard with trying to explain all the philosophical and psychological points that I'm trying to make. But I think where I'm at is that with him going when he did, if anything, it should have been slightly earlier because it was the damage at that point had been done too much to the club and it was, you know...
00:20:04
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:20:10
Zak
it was we are not willing to take the brutal levels of decisions that we used to. like I remember when we came up under Atkins and we were replaced by Pochettino, and I told you, I tell i tell the story quite a lot, right? the The whole pit photo in St. Mary's in the snow with him, with Foran, that guy who never played for us, the, I want to say, Finnish striker or Finnish defender, and there people going, which one's the manager? And people thinking it was really hard done by Atkins at that point.
00:20:36
Zak
you know I think maybe that their their loyalty to him, because because he's so charismatic, was was able to convince them that, yes, i can I can do it if you just keep believing in me, and hoped that the players would do it.
00:20:48
Zak
has hasn't worked hadn't worked out, hasn't worked out, will not work out in the future. Maybe if he'd stayed, maybe we get the extra win against... I think we probably would have beaten Ipswich again, maybe.
00:20:59
Zak
Maybe we have another couple of points, but I don't i don't think it's a huge huge difference, which means, you know, looking back, it was he doomed from the start?
00:21:04
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:21:07
Zak
but maybe at the same time he did us a good job in the championship.
00:21:08
Global Sports Podcast Network
Maybe. Yeah.
00:21:11
Zak
And I feel like maybe at that point it would have been the best decision. Or you do what Ipswich had done and keep the the manager. But like at the same time, I just think that there was more that was more extraordinary right than what Russell Martin did.
00:21:24
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:21:24
Zak
He took a 50% Premier League quality squad when he took charge and managed to make us finish what fourth.
00:21:34
Global Sports Podcast Network
yeah
00:21:34
Zak
when realistically we should have been probably third at least or maybe higher considering the games we've had up to that point.
00:21:40
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, and do you think of some of the results and the amount of draws. Yeah, I agree completely. I want to close on a short form question.
00:21:50
Zak
Sure.
00:21:51
Global Sports Podcast Network
We saw Russell Martin, we talked about his sort of friendliness with the players and his his belief system, right?
00:21:59
Zak
Mm-hmm.
00:21:59
Global Sports Podcast Network
And there are definitely some players that have benefited from that, right? And one of those players, or two two of those players, Flynn Downs and Tyler Diblin. Now, it's very clear Flynn Downs didn't get along with Juric.
00:22:11
Global Sports Podcast Network
and And it might be reading but between the lines a bit too much. It might just be a little bit of a dip in form. It might have been brought back too early from injury. But I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Tyler Diblin...
00:22:24
Global Sports Podcast Network
didn't perform as well under Juric as he did under Russell Martin. So, the, I guess the short form question is if in this mythical universe, Russell Martin had stayed, uh, what price tag do you think we'd be putting on Tyler Diblin at this point in the season?
00:22:29
Zak
Right.
00:22:42
Global Sports Podcast Network
If his form continued to improve with that, that sort of arm round approach,
00:22:49
Zak
I only think 100 million is absolutely insane. However, I do think that if Russell Martin wanted him to be a key player for him for the future and he enjoyed playing under Russell Martin, I feel like it would just be a not-for-sale sign instead of the price tag.
00:23:03
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah. Do you not think it is?
00:23:04
Zak
Because the price tag is obviously meant to be
00:23:06
Global Sports Podcast Network
Do you not think it is?
00:23:07
Zak
we've we've discussed this before. The price tag is a not for sale sign, but also I feel like if someone comes in at 60 million, we'll sell him. Right.
00:23:13
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:23:13
Zak
I have a feeling that if they, if Russell Martin had stayed and we went back down and he had put his arm around and said, this guy is not going anywhere. They would just kind trigger that contract extension and just tell him. And I don't think you'd be potentially as bothered.
00:23:26
Zak
Who knows? It's hard to get into the psychological space of an 18 year old,
00:23:29
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:23:29
Zak
who a newer 18-year-old has gone from, alluded to this in yesterday's episode, gone from of having his debut this season to then being told he's worth £100 million.
00:23:34
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:23:42
Zak
It's got mess your head a little bit.
00:23:44
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:23:44
Zak
ma Because to be honest, it could just be that that has resulted in a dip form.
00:23:47
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:23:47
Zak
All of a sudden, the weight and expectation isn't the same.
00:23:48
Global Sports Podcast Network
Well, we, we saw earlier in the season, Suleyman, uh, have an interview that alluded to the same things, right? And the, well, part of the reasons he was struggling with the pressures that come of being, you know, the club record signing.
00:24:00
Global Sports Podcast Network
And get that.
00:24:01
Zak
the the beginning of the season, Dibling had freedom to play, right, as well.
00:24:02
Global Sports Podcast Network
It's, I get that. It's definitely, it's definitely easy to overthink and overwork situations because
Concluding Reflections on Martin's Tenure
00:24:10
Global Sports Podcast Network
of that, right? You can put yourself in where you're in a situation where you're almost trying too hard.
00:24:15
Global Sports Podcast Network
You need to get out of your own way and fall back on instincts. And sometimes that's, it's easier said than done.
00:24:20
Zak
In answer to your other question about Downs, I don't think there's a price tag on him either because I don't think there would be an interest in him and leaving. I think he would be still quite happy to be here, especially if he's playing a key role.
00:24:26
Global Sports Podcast Network
No.
00:24:30
Zak
And I think with, you know, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's seeing Adam Armstrong go out loan.
00:24:30
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:24:34
Zak
He's seeing Ben Brereton, Diaz leave. He's seeing all that other going on around him. He's like, you know what? There's some interest in me. i don't want to be here anymore either. Because again, a lot of it was playing for the specific manager. So it's it's having...
00:24:44
Global Sports Podcast Network
Jurich, so it's clear, clearly clash in personality.
00:24:48
Zak
Yeah, but this is this is the thing, is that when you when you... This is the other problem we have. When you steer from this sort of Gentile kind, you know, but firm figure or somebody that cares deeply and and makes sure the players know they cared for, which was similar to what we did Hasenhutl, and then you right turn and pivot...
00:25:07
Zak
into, you know, a Nathan Jones who's just like, shut you're all rubbish. but My team would do so much better. I'm pound for pound, the best manager in Europe. Or alternatively, a Juric where it's like, yeah, I'm not listening to what you say. You play football and do good.
00:25:19
Zak
Right? And like, the The contrast in shift, like, you know, but from a human perspective, that's got to be jarring. And we said, hopefully, it'll be good. And for some players, it was good because the people that weren't the favourites managed to go, well, I'll just impress and train in training. I'll get my head down. I'll say nothing.
00:25:36
Zak
For the players that are used to having that sort of extra bit of comfort, their form dipped. and that's just going to be kind of how that works because but the managerial styles are so different. So then what do you do? You should probably have found somebody maybe that was slightly better in the middle ground. But again, and as we pointed out before, what they did was get the first book they found, the first name they had in their little book of managers, which was Juric.
00:25:58
Zak
And so, yeah, if you're looking at a what-if scenario, I think that the players who came in under Russell Martin would be doing better. Maybe Ryan Fraser would have been appearing more this season. Maybe he would have scored more. who Who knows?
00:26:10
Zak
I think that's one of the beautiful, beautiful parts of the what-if question.
00:26:10
Global Sports Podcast Network
yeah yeah
00:26:13
Zak
But I certainly don't think they would have changed much.
00:26:14
Global Sports Podcast Network
Well, I'll tell you one thing, Zach, that I do know is that if Russell Martin had stayed, we probably wouldn't have won the Premier League.
00:26:27
Zak
and Do you reckon we would have gone further in the cups or were you already out of all of them by that point? I can't remember.
00:26:31
Global Sports Podcast Network
right Don't even know.
00:26:33
Zak
no
00:26:34
Global Sports Podcast Network
Doesn't matter. Look, We're nearing the end of this season. We've got, what, six games more to suffer through now. So... 100%.
00:26:41
Zak
I will be forever thankful for the the moments of togetherness that he brought to the club. I'll be forever thankful for that day out in Wembley. I'll be forever thankful for the fact that it made the championship season slightly more exciting.
00:26:56
Zak
The problem is is that because of that feeling and that vibe, it covered up a lot of the cracks that unfortunately were just absolutely exposed from the beginning of the season up until the second.
00:27:01
Global Sports Podcast Network
hundred percent
00:27:05
Zak
in
00:27:05
Global Sports Podcast Network
I kind... I just... i There's part of me that wishes.
00:27:08
Zak
you want You wish it worked out because we like the guy.
00:27:10
Global Sports Podcast Network
wish that he would have been... a wish that he would have been more pragmatic, Antje, because I don't hate... I hate the philosophy of football, and that's well established on the podcast. Go and listen to how Pep Guardiola ruined football.
00:27:25
Global Sports Podcast Network
is is It's been...
00:27:26
Zak
been posted twice.
00:27:27
Global Sports Podcast Network
it's It's out there for all everyone to hear, but I don't think that... the philosophy that Russell Martin imposes is a bad base for a more pragmatic approach.
00:27:42
Zak
yeah if if he was slightly more pragmatic, if he'd been backed as well, in his mind.
00:27:43
Global Sports Podcast Network
You take that as the base. And yeah, if you take that as the base and build upon that, and you allow a bit more versatility and she just go with it a bit, with a bit more tactical wherewithal, gee it's, I wish that it had been better because I like him as a person.
00:28:01
Global Sports Podcast Network
And I enjoyed a lot of the things not based on the football that he did with the club.
00:28:09
Zak
Yeah, and that that for me is the real kicker. And that's why we are sad for people like Atkins when he got fired. And we were sad for Hassan Hütel because you could tell how much he cared. And that's why we are not as warm to Juric, who he was sort of happy to be here, but you didn't really see it.
00:28:26
Zak
And Nathan Jones, who saw it more as an opportunity to play the Premier League. But a lot of that was by the looks of it covering up the film.
00:28:31
Global Sports Podcast Network
I wouldd go out would go one step further and say Nathan Jones, who actively went out of his way to show that he didn't enjoy his time here.
00:28:37
Zak
Yeah, but I think i think also part but when he was here, I think part of it was covering up the fact that he felt like... don't know that if you've seen the interviews where he was talking about how he's like, oh, well, I was worried about what say because he's a Premier League player.
00:28:48
Zak
So I'm like, the fact that you went in with that mentality meant you lost the battle as soon as it was.
00:28:51
Global Sports Podcast Network
Always. sir Yeah, 100%. Hmm.
00:28:52
Zak
and like and and that's the And that's the problem. and And it's the fact that he was a personable manager that was a nice guy and you know cared about the club and cared about the people.
00:29:03
Zak
that's That's great.
00:29:04
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:29:04
Zak
But unfortunately, yeah...
00:29:05
Global Sports Podcast Network
If only he knew how to coach a football team.
00:29:07
Zak
of Unfortunately, if I'm really nice guy, like you know we we talk about our boss, who we won't name, but he he's he's we we really like working under him.
00:29:18
Zak
One of the other reasons we get to work under him and one of the reasons that we're still in this team is because the team is successful. when the t If the team was unsuccessful, like him or not, he probably wouldn't be in charge of our team.
00:29:30
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:29:30
Zak
And that is the the key difference, is that it was not being successful.
00:29:33
Zak
And you can ask for more time, and oh boy, howdy, was he given more time. And he asked for more backing, and I think, you know, yeah, they could have had a better recruitment strategy and at that point, but maybe he should have rang the alarm bow significantly louder and put that out in the press earlier on.
00:29:49
Zak
Because, you know, if he was saying before the season started, well, the problem is, though, is that we're not really going to get any good players in, and... the the the club get annoyed with him at least that point it's in the open it's not you know want to protect all the players and I want to but he said and you know himself that he relied on the players that he brought up that weren't strong enough so it's a double-edged sword but it's a nice guy who I wish all the best for but no not back because that's just a learning nothing from the past is it we'll see him Leicester next season it's fine when they fire Ruud van Nistrooy who could have been in charge of us
00:30:08
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, 100%. 100%. hundred
00:30:17
Global Sports Podcast Network
hundred percent
00:30:19
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:30:22
Zak
Is it bad mystery who's in charge?
00:30:22
Global Sports Podcast Network
Well, it is Van Nistelrooy, yes, mate.
00:30:23
Zak
Yeah. Yeah, it is. That's true.
00:30:25
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:25
Zak
Good. I'm just losing track.
00:30:26
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah, I mean, I saw some Saints fans call in for that, and yeah. That's why fans aren't in boards of football clubs, mate, because they could have been us.
00:30:35
Global Sports Podcast Network
I mean, okay, I guess to addition to the what if, would Van Nistelrooy have been a worse manager for us than Juric?
00:30:36
Zak
People like me, overly emotional. I'd fire them off the back of a couple of games.
00:30:42
Global Sports Podcast Network
Probably not. Doesn't matter, does it? It's irrelevant.
00:30:46
Zak
ah ah i I don't think he would signed for us, if I'm totally honest.
00:30:51
Global Sports Podcast Network
Exactly.
00:30:51
Zak
This is like the whole thing with like, well, we should got David Moyes in. like, Clip specifically came out of his way and said he didn't want he he wasn't involved in that, they didn't want to be involved in our club.
00:30:58
Global Sports Podcast Network
Yeah.
00:30:59
Zak
And that's that's that's upsetting because of a multitude of reasons. Thank you for your time, Russell Martin. I don't think you would have saved us from relegation.
00:31:09
Global Sports Podcast Network
I'm right there with you. yeah i agree with the sentiment entirely. Well, we do nothing now except look forward.
00:31:18
Global Sports Podcast Network
That's what we can do. And the next thing we have to look forward to is a game of football at the weekend.
00:31:25
Zak
Oh, is it looking forward to it?
00:31:27
Global Sports Podcast Network
yeah I mean, no, because that is not how football works.
00:31:27
Zak
Can I look past it? Shame.
00:31:33
Zak
i
00:31:33
Global Sports Podcast Network
We will be back tomorrow as we cast our eyes onto that game. Until then, Thank you very much for listening. Let us know your thoughts. Would we have stayed up if Russell Martin and stayed in charge?
00:31:44
Global Sports Podcast Network
I feel like I know a lot of the responses to that already, but I look forward to hearing in them. Let us know on all of the socials, your Blue Sky, TikTok, X, Facebook, Instagram, all of them.
00:31:58
Global Sports Podcast Network
Give us a comment. We'll be back tomorrow. Until then.