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Episode 457: Poynter’s Neil Brown Says Editing Isn’t Discussed Enough
303 Plays18 hours ago
"What I was fortunate enough to get exposed to very early in my career, and I really believe is now the way to go, which is the nature of editing as thinking," says Poynter Institute president Neil Brown.
Neil has spent more than forty years as a reporter and editor, and he just wrapped up his tenure on the Pulitzer Prize Board. He's one of the more nimble minds in journalism and a champion of the editor/writer dynamic.
In this conversation, Neil riffs on
- Editing as thinking
- The late writing coach Don Murray
- How the front end is everything
- Respecting reader detection
- And Interviewing as a skill, among lots more great stuff.
Promotional Sponsor: The Power of Narrative Conference. Use CNF15 at checkout for a 15% discount.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Promotions
00:00:00
Speaker
OACNFers promotional support for the podcast is brought to you by the Power of Narrative Conference. Oh my God, it's like a couple weeks away. Celebrating his 26th year, March 28th, March 29th, that final weekend in March, hundreds of journalists from around the world to descend on Boston University.
00:00:19
Speaker
Keynote speakers include Susan Orlean, Connie Schultz, Dan Zak, Connie Chung. Listeners to this podcast can get 15% off the enrollment fee by using the code CNF15.
00:00:30
Speaker
Running out of time. Visit combeyond.bu.edu and use that CNF15 code. Like I said, two weeks, get a move on.
00:00:41
Speaker
You're a journalist. You know what a deadline is.
00:00:46
Speaker
Oh, and also consider pre-ordering The Front Runner, The Life of Steve Prefontaine. It's a book I wrote. Anyway. ah really believe is now the way to go, which is that is the nature of editing as ah thinking, right? And so we all need a thinking partner.
Episode and Guest Introduction: Neil Brown
00:01:10
Speaker
Alright, hey, we made it to another CNF Friday, and it's another double-feature day. Don't worry about it. It's a creative nonfiction podcast, a show where I talk to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell. i'm Brendan O'Meara. Listen, I wish I could be Michael Lewis for you, but all I can be is me.
00:01:26
Speaker
Neil Brown is here. And what fun this conversation was. This was a good one. I mean, rich. Really fun. I can i can see Neil being a semi-regular. Neil's the president of the Poynter Institute. You know Poynter, a bastion of resources for reporters and editors, media criticism and fact checking.
00:01:48
Speaker
you want to level up your game, you visit pointer.org.
Neil Brown on Journalism and Beat Reporting
00:01:52
Speaker
Neil spent four decades as a journalist and recently finished nine years as a member of the Pulitzer Prize Board. Meaning he voted for the people who won Pulitzer Prizes. Amazing.
00:02:04
Speaker
i mean, just you imagine that. Imagine being able to read all that stuff. He worked with some of the best reporters, be it coming up in the 80s in the the Miami Herald and the Key West Bureau with the likes of Michael Capuzzo and Carl Hiaasen, to editing titans like Tom French, Kelly Bonham French, Ben Montgomery, and Michael Cruz.
00:02:25
Speaker
While Neil and I were talking, Roy Peter Clark just walked by his office, like right across the window. Yeah, RPC. Show notes of this episode and more at brendanamara.com.
00:02:37
Speaker
There you can browse blog posts and my anti-social media feed. As well as sign up for the monthly Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter for book recommendations and cool links to stuff I think you'll enjoy.
00:02:49
Speaker
There's now a companion weekly creative nonfiction podcast substack that has more goodies like full transcripts, the parting shot, and just some other... episode-specific and podcast ephemera. It's like show notes on steroids.
00:03:02
Speaker
So find it at creativenonfictionpodcast.com and subscribe to that if you want a little extra seasoning. And if you care, visit patreon.com slash cnfpod to support the podcast financially.
00:03:15
Speaker
Or you don't have to. There's a free option just to join if you want to window browse, if you want to lurk.
The Role of Editors as Thinking Partners
00:03:20
Speaker
I just posted a little video inviting people to a pitch club where I will listen to pitches and see what I can do to maybe coach the best out of them.
00:03:29
Speaker
Not saying it'll land you somewhere, but you know, if we can turn the screws on something, all the better. Get your stories landed. in this conversation neil brown riffs on editing his thinking the late writing coach don murray who roy point peter clark writes about a lot in his books how the front end the front end conversation is everything respecting reader detection and interviewing as a skill, among a lot of other great stuff. This is really cool. This is very rich.
00:03:58
Speaker
So make sure you visit pointer.org, browse around, follow at pointer underscore institute on Instagram, and Neil Brown on LinkedIn. Parting shot on routine porn. But for now, here's the amazing conversation with pointer.org's Neil Brown.
00:04:15
Speaker
Riff.
00:04:23
Speaker
Because the work I make finds its readers because it is designed for them. For me, you know, Envy is a real sibling to Awe.
00:04:33
Speaker
I'm just a mule. This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:04:42
Speaker
What was the lane that i most appealed to you? So started in the in the sort of the breaking news space. And then as I moved into editing, became much more into the sort of narrative and longer form.
00:04:56
Speaker
But for me, since I was, ah and and this would be a a theme for a conversation for you today, is I think that editing is sort of the, isn't discussed enough, even as we talk about the sort of great, great level of writing.
00:05:07
Speaker
So I started my career at the Miami Herald in incredibly in the Key West Bureau. And it's been downhill ever since ah because that was just awesome. But we were it was cranking. We had a Keys edition and and we'd be cranking stories. But the Herald had this culture of tremendous writing. And i actually, as I came to find, really great editing too.
00:05:28
Speaker
And so at the Herald in those days, and then later at the St. Pete Times, we can tell and a lot of good journalism, you you would start
The Power of Narrative Storytelling
00:05:38
Speaker
with good beat reporting, looking for that story. So that was a lot of quick turnaround, a lot of good source making, looking for that moment that was worth the longer takeout or the narrative approach or something that was a lot richer.
00:05:55
Speaker
And so i tend to, I'm not trying to punt on your question, but i yeah tend to really believe that they're all building blocks toward the same, toward something. And then people do like certain forms. And certainly now with content creators and other things, I think there's all kinds of really cool short forms. Podcasting is a cool longer form.
00:06:12
Speaker
And so i I tend to want to sort of say, even though i get, look, you were you were into that and and our and are talented at it. It's a thing. I'm not trying to say everybody should be all of the above, but I do think that it's sort of like depends on the story, right?
00:06:26
Speaker
but So I was a breaking news guy and then I was a politics ah reporter and a beat reporter. But I loved looking for, to me, a lot of those forms came together in the context of a profile.
00:06:37
Speaker
Because then you're telling a story of an individual whole, your chronology is involved. Events add up. And the thing that starts is maybe, you know, meet an individual and something happened. There's this sort of the ultimate backstory and the ultimate fuller story.
00:06:54
Speaker
And that sometimes is a good long read. Sometimes it's shorter. A lot of times it's narrative. So I tended to be one who thought, yeah, I'm going to I'm going to be a volume play. um ah um ah You know, I'm a second baseman back to your baseball analogy. You know, I got I've got good hands. I can release the ball quick.
00:07:13
Speaker
But I'm not a long ball guy. But then when I grew into ah editing, I really got taught by some good people and really embraced the power of a longer form story that really had a lot more connective tissue to it than the than the shorter forms do.
The Evolving Role of Editors
00:07:30
Speaker
Well, a moment ago you were saying how editing isn't discussed enough, and I think that's ah that's a really rich ah rich thread to pull on it. What is the the role of the the editor maybe in in these days and how – yeah, just the the role of the editor now?
00:07:45
Speaker
Yeah. So listen, I think that I believe in writers. I believe in writing and the and the being able to sort of really ah bring back a story then tell it is is fundamental.
00:07:57
Speaker
But what I was fortunate enough to to get exposed to very early in my career, and I ah really believe is now the way to go, which is that is the nature of editing as ah thinking, right? And so we all need a thinking partner.
00:08:12
Speaker
So whether it's the writing you're doing or your books or any piece, I really believe that the front end, before a word is put down, talking out with an individual who you respect, who can be somewhat egoless about it, who can hear you out and be the honest of honest brokers about what's the story we're trying to tell. What have you heard so far?
00:08:37
Speaker
And you become this, you want an editor becomes just sort of a fundamental challenger and focus group to what, what is being gathered and then all the options. And there's often several.
00:08:50
Speaker
of how you might tell it. So I really believe that editing is about helping the writer think. Editing is done before the words are down and in whatever form they're going to be put down in.
00:09:04
Speaker
Editor is someone who is going to go kind of be the the true critic in the best sense. But i will the the word I like to use is, you know, help with the scrub. You have to scrub this stuff and scrub it and bring rigor to to the storytelling, rigor to the information.
00:09:21
Speaker
Is it working? Is it too long? Is it too short? I never worry about length at the outset. And I don't i think the good editors, to your question, don't worry about that. That's not the point, right? The point is, what are we trying to do here?
00:09:37
Speaker
Can we do it better? Huh. Can we do it better? Huh. Can we do it better? And you keep coming at it and you have an ally and a collaborator. Not an egotist who needs to have their words over the writer's, but somebody can be super honest with the individual and, again, help the writer think through the several options on how this could go.
00:10:01
Speaker
When i was a I was an intern at the Boston Globe earlier in my career before I graduated, I loved it had a great time. And there was a writing coach back then, a guy long since gone now, named Don Murray.
00:10:13
Speaker
And I'm sitting at my desk as this young intern. giving me stories to do. And Don Murray comes up me and goes, um let me see your five leads. And I go, what do you mean? And he goes, I need you to write five leads on every story you ever do.
00:10:29
Speaker
And I go, well, what's the point of that? I kind of know what the story is. He goes, I'm telling you, just do it. so So I would do it. And you're like, well, I could lead this way or I could lead this. I come up with two.
00:10:42
Speaker
go like five. Well, now I'm starting to not make up stuff from a terms of a fictional set standpoint, but I'm just like, well, he'll never go for this. And, you know, I'm just trying to placate the guy by forcing myself to write three extra leads on a story that I'm pretty much, you know, is that the first or the second lead on it.
00:11:00
Speaker
And it was an unbelievably great exercise in unlocking the possibility because you'd be stunned at how often some little touch from lead from the earth. purposefully mischievous lead five ah found its way into the lead that went the story.
00:11:17
Speaker
and and And so that's what I think that editors ultimately do. We will get to the you know rigorous work of the words on the page, figurative or otherwise, eventually.
00:11:28
Speaker
But in that first part, the thing an editor does is help help the writer work. unlock the material or identify the deficits or identify the gaps.
The Importance of Original Ideas in Storytelling
00:11:40
Speaker
I'm i'm a really big believer that the front end is everything.
00:11:44
Speaker
The game is won or lost at the idea phase. And then after that, the front end conversation can guide and direct and ultimately propel some good good writing and a good story. And that's what I think an editor, first and foremost, should be doing.
00:12:01
Speaker
And then certainly you get into the Identify the gaps, logical difference. This doesn't work. This does work. Do more of it. There's not enough of this. Did you realize how often there's all of the mechanical, and I do even use the word mechanical with a sense of power, not just, you know, copy editing.
00:12:22
Speaker
And I think the more ambitious the story, and sometimes ambitious is, I want to be clear, is not synonymous with length. But when the when the story is complicated or you have high ambitions or you're trying to push some forms in new and interesting ways, we all need editors as an ally in the writing lab.
00:12:42
Speaker
When you say an idea is often won and lost at the idea phase, ah what are some of the the components or the blocks of an idea that is a winner versus a loser?
00:12:53
Speaker
ah Again, a guy i learned a lot from was a guy named John Bredcher, and he used to be, years ago, the page one editor of the Wall Street Journal. And, you know, the journal, at least in journalism circles, certainly was known for their very sharp 1A stories and front page stories and clever writing forms and all of that. And John used to have a saying that, and this was through the you know prism of of journalism, so it may not work for any for every kind formula. Reporters would pitch John's stories.
00:13:24
Speaker
And John said, if I even feel like I've heard it before, I want nothing to do with it. Now, that's a pretty high bar, right? I mean, there's no right i mean you know life has got a lot of ah you know versions and repetition and all of that.
00:13:40
Speaker
But what he was really saying with that that stuck with me and why I say the game is won or lost at the idea phase is starting with a fairly high standard and bar that resists familiarity.
00:13:54
Speaker
It resists thinking that readers, it pushes you to remind yourself that readers have tons of options. And so through the story concept, not just the top of it by any means, but through the entire concept, as well as the presentation and the quality of writing, you are about to enter into something with a reader where you are asking for a lot back.
00:14:18
Speaker
You're asking for attention. You're asking for time. You're asking for an open mind, emotional potential for emotional buy-in or collaboration. And if the idea is, you know, trite,
00:14:34
Speaker
or polemic maybe. I mean, there's a lot of things we can say to make a bad idea or a good idea, but if the idea doesn't find a way to create some sense of, but lower the barrier to entry for the audience or the reader, then you're gonna have a problem. So again, in the journalism and newspaper world, there's again, John's mantras in my head. I mean, there's so much stuff that sounds exactly the same.
00:14:59
Speaker
ah And you know why? Because it is. You know, yeah you can't you can't just say like, yeah, but mine was better. Mine was sharper. yeah Perhaps. But don't ask me to be, you know, you know, to me, the audience member of the reader is sort of subtly have to delineate between you and something else. my You know, there's just too much interesting stuff out there.
00:15:23
Speaker
Back to that point. So if the idea is boring. however you want to define that, if the idea is intellectually flawed or not rigorous, illogical, all of these things, I think we have to make sure we totally respect reader detection.
00:15:44
Speaker
And readers will figure that out and they will say, thanks, but no thanks, or thanks, I'm gone. And so that's why I say, and so originality, know,
00:15:56
Speaker
not easily something that's defined, but the, ah the, anything that feels original or feels like a, an unexpected um component at any stage in the storytelling counts for a fair bit. And so that's kind of what I'm getting at when I say, like, can you work through the, in a sense, a checklist with your editor, collaborator, who whoever would you decide to use to say,
00:16:23
Speaker
You feel like you know this already? You feel like you've heard this before? Is this interesting to you? And that and their response needs to be super honest from the editor or something else. yeah Because otherwise you're going on a course that's going to eventually not get all the way over the line or worse, really be disappointing.
00:16:42
Speaker
So we need honest brokers to sort of say, well, tell me more because I'm not really feeling it. you know i mean i do think that word you know that you know senses of like the vibe or i'm not feeling it they kind of really count and you know this is a creative person who's doing creative work it doesn't have to be super you know literal but it does become a conversation point to say well that you know what i've read a lot about this but i never heard it quite like that before or can you tell it in a
00:17:13
Speaker
new and different way, or is this just utterly original? and i'm never I didn't know anyone like this. So those are kinds of the conversations that I think are really fundamental at the front end, followed by now can we both verbally, visually, whatever it may take, start to outline where we're going to see if it's more than just a singular point and that it's going to hold up through the thread of the whole story.
Reflections on Working with Legendary Journalists
00:17:41
Speaker
And given the amount of tremendous writing talent that has come through the St. Pete Times now, the Tampa Bay Times, and I'm sure you've overlapped and worked with many of many of them, be it a ah Tom French or a Kelly Bonham French and Roy Peter Clark and probably Ben Montgomery too.
00:18:01
Speaker
it's a What's a maybe a a telling anecdote of just you working with them in dialogue to try to bring the best possible story to the floor? By the way, Peter Clark just walked by my office now. Oh, no kidding. He's been on the show a couple times. Yeah, it's great. No doubt. I mean, look at, but by the way, those names you mentioned, I've been very blessed to work with all of them.
00:18:23
Speaker
And I'll start, I really, from Ben, all of them on down, I'm going to say this because I say it all the time, so I want to get points for standard on your on your program, which is this, which is that those tremendous writers are tremendous because I have never seen better reporters.
00:18:43
Speaker
They are never writing around stuff they didn't excavate and mine and go get from people about people. So by the time it was, you know, writing time, of which, you know, Tom French is a legend for his outlines.
00:19:00
Speaker
He's also one of him and Ben, two of the most profound interviewers I've ever kind of witnessed. um And not just the notion you can get people to talk to you. They they do that with, you know, tremendous a sense of touch and empathy and all the things that that honestly bring about great, great stories.
00:19:20
Speaker
But they really are incisive in that they recognize that it's a little shush accreditation, like, you know, chip with the spoon whatever, which is that you just got to keep going.
00:19:33
Speaker
There's more to be had. There's more to be had. There's more to be had. and so I had the the the great opportunity to work with all of them in different kinds of stories. And again, you know, the beauty of it was it was rarely to talk about, you know, you would talk about sometimes framing and the words themselves, but it was more like I got them to practice telling me the story so that I could then react and they could get the benefit to some degree of that.
00:20:00
Speaker
In the case of somebody like Tom, who, you know, I mean, is really a pioneer and along with Roy in this kind of, you know, sort of narrative nonfiction and narrative as a truth telling device. And i'm going to come back to that in a second.
00:20:15
Speaker
But with Tom, you know, he's a i mean, him and Ben are interesting approaches. They have a lot in common, but I would say Tom is a more sentimental guy than Ben.
00:20:27
Speaker
And sentimentality. can sometimes be great and sometimes it leads to sort of, you know, purple or, you know, maybe a little bit overdone stuff that hard edge can sometimes be underdone, you know? And so i say that because that's the beauty of so many different, interesting running styles, all that grow out of their sense that when they're in the field, it's, it's nothing but surprise and delight to them. And then they sort of come back.
00:20:54
Speaker
They're never formula guys, even as they buy into a formula of narrative power, It's really ah about the story. And so, you know, I mean, Tom's Pulitzer series is one of the great true crime narratives of our time, you know, and he understood what it said about loneliness and relationships in Florida and all of that.
00:21:19
Speaker
Ben brings an unbelievable, you know, righteous indignation to injustice sense to his, you know, sort of story talk. So everybody's got a little bit of something different.
00:21:30
Speaker
Kelly Benham is a ruthless writer and editor. She doesn't have sentimentality and that's one of her great strengths, I think, in some respects. So I got lucky to work with some of them not down at the Herald. I mean, I worked with people like Carl Heisman, who, you know, turned his profound in investigative chops.
00:21:47
Speaker
People don't realize that Carl was this unbelievable investigative reporter before he ever started writing crazy Florida man style fiction. and Again, the thing about these guys is power of observation, unbelievable ability ability to interview, and recognizing that the writing only came after the gathering in the best in the best sense of that.
00:22:08
Speaker
Did you overlap at the Miami Herald with ah Michael Capuzzo and Madeline Blaze by any chance? Yeah, well, ah deeply with Capuzzo. He and I were in the Key West Bureau together. was there when I landed.
00:22:21
Speaker
and Mike's a good friend, yeah. Oh, well, you please make sure you say hello to Michael Capuzzo for me. I learned a lot from Mike Capuzzo. I mean, that guy, as a very young man, as really a kid out of Northwestern, I think, but a Boston kid.
00:22:35
Speaker
Big Red Sox fan, that guy. He absolutely loved and embraced you know the power but
Lessons from Michael Capuzzo in Feature Writing
00:22:43
Speaker
of storytelling. He was in that same bureau with me where we were cranking out three to six stories, or you know three stories a day. So you're like 10 to 12 a week, 15 a week even.
00:22:51
Speaker
But he was always working on the longer feature. He was always working on the Sunday Magazine story because he definitely saw, yeah, whatever I just got paid to do, that's not the real story. The real story is over here.
00:23:04
Speaker
And Capuzzo has a great touch, a great work ethic. One thing about my Capuzzo that i I always loved walk work was the joy in the, in the storytelling. I mean, you know, a lot of writers, you know, it's hand wringing and chain smoking, and all of it. But Capuzzo, man, again, he is as dedicated as anybody, but man, it was joyful for Michael.
00:23:26
Speaker
So anyways, yeah. So I had, I've been lucky now. I only met Madeline Blaze a couple of times, ah but her work in Tropic Magazine was legendary, but I didn't really know her as well. It was a big, it was a big place at the time, but she was working for Tropic when I was there.
00:23:41
Speaker
But yeah, I've been talking to Capuzzo in years, but yes, please if you if you have a chance to run into him, please give him my best because I learned a lot from Mike. And Mike was definitely one who understood that.
00:23:54
Speaker
What I learned from Mike, which is now very obvious, but as a young reporter is important to see, which was that to some degree, some of us who came up through very traditional means thought like if I could get a good quote,
00:24:10
Speaker
Capuzzo knew that the quote was the was a bonus. That's not what you're there for. You know, get the anecdote, get a story, flesh it out. and The quote will be fine. But thats that was an important component, I think, of narrative that where particularly back when Mike was doing it, Madeline was doing it in Tropics.
00:24:31
Speaker
And Tom French was bursting onto the scene with his narratives, which was to get past. it It moved journalism from articles to stories. And that was that was kind of a key element of that.
00:24:46
Speaker
A moment ago you brought up how ah Ben and Tom are particularly skilled interviewers. I noticed just being in the podcast sphere and then even if you whoever you might pay attention to, from be at a press conference or even on TV, yeah i think you noticed that interviewing is a skill and a lot of people aren't very good at it.
00:25:04
Speaker
And i wonder for you, what are what are things that you notice that are ah lacking in many contemporary, even mainstream interviewers? Well, yeah. So first of all, I completely agree with you. Like even now, even if we've been saying that for dozens of years, it's amazing how mediocre interviewing is generally even in this in this environment.
00:25:25
Speaker
I don't know whether it is a culture of volume and social posts and things like that. I'm not down on social. I'm not, this isn't a horrific inside at all. But I would tell you that whether it's on Television or interviewing seems to be unappreciated art. And the biggest thing, it's so ridiculous, the answer to the question, and it's this.
00:25:46
Speaker
The biggest failing is they're not listening. he You know, the interviewer is not listening. The interviewer, the the number one mistake continuously made.
00:25:58
Speaker
news reports and feature stories is the the interviewer seems already be thinking about the next question before hearing the answer to the one they just asked.
00:26:09
Speaker
And I think that's a, it's like a historic mistake. People have done that for years, but you can tell. And so, you know, there's always the, you know, the tricks of the trade, right? So always like, well, just don't say anything and the other person will fill in the space. i And that's true.
00:26:26
Speaker
That's a very good technique. You know, the interviewer doesn't have to constantly fill in the space because it seems awkward. Just let the silence lie. Okay. That's a very good technique. And I agree with it.
00:26:38
Speaker
It's amazing still how people don't do it. And again, to some degree, I think there's a lack of prep in interviewing. I think it's a little too quick a turnaround. I think the idea of what I mentioned a moment ago, which is that I'm after interviewing,
00:26:53
Speaker
A fairly colorful quote somehow pollutes or dilutes the interviewing because you're thinking about whether I heard that rather than what am I truly trying to grasp or gather?
00:27:07
Speaker
I think the pressure, time pressures are certainly a big ah big problem. One thing that Ben and Tom and others will say is a lot of times on longer form stuff, they've got more time.
00:27:19
Speaker
By the way, Michael Cruz, and another guy I work with who's outstanding in this. oh yeah But in any event, and I bring that up because, again, they know that this is going to take time to tease out.
00:27:30
Speaker
And if you're going to rush it, you're just not going to get all the you're not going to mine all the gold. And so, again, I think that, number one, I think interviewers need to do a better job of listening to the answer and then being kind of comfortable with an interview, not being an interview, but being a conversation that yields things that maybe were not even intended going in.
00:27:53
Speaker
So it it may sound funny to put it this way, but I think too many interviews are mission centric. I've got the story. I need this result. And then I need to get out of here. Now, like again, I'm not naive about time pressures, particularly in the journalism space or deadlines or any of that.
00:28:11
Speaker
But I do think that when you narrow the frame, which is we use a lot of cliches where you narrow the frame,
00:28:21
Speaker
to the mission that you're going to interview on, you're going to get only so much. So the other cliche part would be, but I do think there's times you got to drill down, right? But that's different than get just looking for that quick nugget and then getting out of dodge, right? You want to really develop it like it was a conversation. And, you know, sometimes I'm sure the the writers you've mentioned and many others who have been on your show here would probably tell this more authentically than I'm able to, but I just know that when you get back and you transcribe the interview or you do whatever whatever tool you're using and to see what you have and you look at it and you realize, oh yeah, he said this, she said this too, whatever it may be.
00:29:08
Speaker
Like you didn't know it at the moment. you know So you're excavating even your own yeah news gathering or a story gathering. you know um That's how you know you've sort of come up with a conversation. and Yes, you'll put it in the context of the expression on their face at the time or whatever it may be, whatever's relevant. but I do think that the thing about interviewing that Tom, Ben, and others have that others don't is patience.
00:29:35
Speaker
yeah They're just super patient ah and not in an artificial or contrived way. They just recognize people are people.
00:29:47
Speaker
I'm just going to keep trying to find out until I can find out what I need to know and then maybe discover the stuff i never expected I'd know. and what also happens or what I what i hear a lot is reporters have a tendency to answer, even podcast hosters, primarily podcasts, but ah journalistism journalists too, will basically ask a question and kind of answer it for their their interviewee. And it's just you got to have a really good shot clock. Try to get in, get out, oh ask that open-ended question, and don't be afraid to sound like an idiot. Everyone is so insecure, and I'm not ah excluded from that.
00:30:26
Speaker
of wanting to sound smart, but sometimes you just got to let that open-ended question just hang and let, you know, have be out in and out in five to 10 seconds and let them talk for five minutes.
00:30:37
Speaker
You know, I don't, I couldn't agree more. i could not agree more. And in fact, now I'm the worst of it. And they see a lot of this, particularly in the political sphere, ah certainly in the sports sphere too. I mean, i you know, you know, we're talking about baseball. I listened to, I like, I admire baseball announcers and all that, but they'll do this show with the manager and the first,
00:30:55
Speaker
There's no question. It's because they want to show like, I saw what happened in the fourth turn. I'm going to show you. And similarly in politics, the questions are long to your point. And, you know, i'm going to say it.
00:31:08
Speaker
They're performative. And performative is not our role. And worse, it doesn't yield what we need. yeah So, you know, maybe you're trying to play to an audience. We know politicians do that. But journalists are not beyond it where they feel like I'm going to show you.
00:31:25
Speaker
How clever, smart, tough, whatever it may be. And sometimes it's that self-conscious and sometimes it's just clumsy. But when the question is essentially a performance or trying to sort of reflect your background or your knowledge, it's missing the point.
00:31:44
Speaker
The point is to find out what they know, not what you know. Yeah, that's kind of what ah John Swartzky would say about inputting versus outputting. And yeah if you spit out a word salad, a very skilled interviewee is going to just take something and run with it and not answer anything and basically filibuster the whole conversation and move on to something else.
00:32:04
Speaker
And it's it's so hard to be to show restraint in an interview. It's it's it's just a real difficult skill that none not enough people ah ah practice it well or research that aspect of it as much as they should. And ah <unk> what's great, it's a skill so you can learn it and get better at it. But um maybe people discount it a bit much because they do want to sound smart, to your point. In sports, you do it all the time. you talk If you spit a word salad at Bill Belichick or any of these football coaches,
00:32:32
Speaker
ah they'll just either give you a quick yes or no, and they they will only give you a five-second answer to your one-minute question where the inverse should be true.
00:32:44
Speaker
Completely. Listen, you use you use ah Belichick as a perfect example, and we we can talk about the pros and cons of Bill Belichick, yeah but but when he's given the answer to a very long commentary sex question where the person is frankly you could tell the interviewer is a bit scared of him and wants to show and wants to go toe to toe and then his response is I guess no you know like you have failed and it's not and we and we in the media then try to say what a jerk Belichick is well sure but not for that reason yeah you know I mean so again I go back to I think sometimes it's nerve sometimes it's lack of skill I do think it can be
00:33:24
Speaker
Again, i've I've seen Tom French teach interviewing and think more people should take classes from him on it. You know, i mean, it's, these are things we can get better at and we should, if we could convince each other that there's a payoff there. It's not about us. It's about the stories.
00:33:39
Speaker
Interviewing is a central component to that. The other, um ah related a component that goes across all of it is detail, right? And so, you know, you asked about the, you know, my time with the Herald and and Mike Willoughby.
00:33:52
Speaker
Kapuza would have worked with Gene Miller. and You must know the name Gene Miller. So Gene Miller was this legendary writer. He won two Pulitzer Prizes at the Herald for not once but twice, getting innocent men off of, in different cases, off of death row through his reporting.
00:34:08
Speaker
But he was and he was ah also an IU grad, and so he comes out of that a school of Frenchies. And And it was so first of all he was extremely tight, ruthless writer. In fact, his editing is when he was a writing coach at the Herald. you know, we those of us who were working it all in longer form stories and all that always knew what was called the Miller chop, which was, you know, he was editing Buchanan's editor. her She was a Pulitzer Prize winning cop supporter.
00:34:37
Speaker
And a lot of it was about crime. And the idea was it was going to super tight, soup a lot of staccato, a lot of quick short sentences. But the thing about a gene would require as an editor was the details. So, of course, the name of the dog is you know is like the cliched one, but that's always a good one, too.
00:34:55
Speaker
yeah But, you know, miller you know if if it was a crime scene, Miller would want to, know, like, well, you know, there was a you know cigarettes in the ashtray. How many? You know, that kind of thing.
00:35:07
Speaker
And so detail and the thing, the reason I think about that when you're talking about, because a lot of what they're asking about is asking from their sources, a level of detail that isn't just what do they think or what were their impressions?
00:35:24
Speaker
It's that the subjects of the interviews are your eyes and ears and into the stories or into the scenes that you're trying to create or recreate. And you need detail that requires patience.
00:35:34
Speaker
That requires asking the subjects this level of detail because they're not thinking about it. So there's, you know, there's a there's a not too cliche to say there's some good detective work that has to go in that and that interviewing is sort of fundamental to it, but not just for the sake of it.
00:35:50
Speaker
It's like you're you're trying to collect as much as you can. Yeah, I've told some people when I feel like I'm asking really ah well it seems maybe on the surface just mind-numbingly ah boring information. i just like, listen, if I if i were there and ah ah shadowing you, like I could be scribbling all these things down, but, you know, i wasn't there and just in the spirit of that. Like if I was just – I'm in the backseat and you're driving the car. Like what what am I seeing? What am I smelling?
00:36:18
Speaker
so All of those things. way you know what What are the bumps in the road? yeah what are ah This, that, and the other. And they're like, why do you want this? Well, it's just you know these are these sensory details are important. i want I want you to help me paint this paint this scene. And so sometimes you just have to have the patience to the Ben Montgomery ah ideal of like going just keep going back to it, going back to it. Robert Caro does this too. he's like go back to it, go back to it.
00:36:43
Speaker
And, yeah, eventually, like, those details start to knock over other dominoes. Like, oh, wow, this is – things are starting to come back up to the fore, and you're getting those details that really let a reader sink in.
00:36:54
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And I do think that – so you've got both the patience point, and I think you have to have a little kind of humility or – yeah, I know. this kind of It sounds kind of silly. I'm just trying as hard as I can to to recreate as much – you know, to to understand as much of what we what we could see, what was involved and all of that, just so I could be as, I'm using this word in a careful way, not a political way, as true as possible, right? As best as we can tell, you know, I've always thought that the beauty the of the kind of work of all the writers that you described and those their predecessors and then those who have really embraced, you know, narrative nonfiction, creative nonfiction
00:37:39
Speaker
well is it's a chance to close when done well, the reality gap between what got said happened and then what might've really happened. It doesn't mean that what got said happened wasn't true.
00:37:55
Speaker
It's just not true enough because it's sort of synthesized or it's brief or it's, ah you know, it's over abridged and we're trying to fill out these details. Now back to the editor,
00:38:07
Speaker
It may be that they they still won't survive, right? You know, it doesn't mean just because you just because you then did find out all of it, you should use all of it. So that's where you come back to an editor being like, well, this matters, this doesn't matter. This is redundant or this is slowing us down. so But I do think that level of patience and humility to collect it all to assemble the most complete form of truth and story Then you'll find out, the you'll determine the finest and most effective way to tell it, which often does mean leaving stuff out because it's really undermining it at times if it's too much.
00:38:47
Speaker
But it's good to have all the options. and Yeah. right you you I want to know it all. And then we can assemble, disassemble, whatever whatever it may be. Yeah, and when you said closing the reality gap, you know what that makes me think of too is how increasingly and almost pathologically siloed everybody is to the point of – everybody kind of has their own realities, and then they exist in those silos and in those echo chambers.
00:39:14
Speaker
In your estimation and your experience in journalism and the work you're doing with Pointer, just how can we better un-silo people? Yeah. Yeah. Well, believe it or not, i I'm not just speak trying to butter up but you and the podcast and all, but I do think narrative is an opportunity to unsilo people because instead of taking people from the frame they start, a good story takes them in a different door, right?
00:39:41
Speaker
And so if you come in that sort of side door, a different door, now you're you' you've taken both the writer and the reader away from ah any kind of predisposed story.
00:39:52
Speaker
thinking about something, particularly, don't mean to put everything through it all through a political or a polarized environment, but people do come, silos are based on, this isn't a good term because it would it would sound scolding, and I don't mean to ever scold an audience member. I don't. I don't believe in it. But silos are sort of rooted in kind of a little bit of intellectual laziness or just convenience. Maybe convenience is a nicer way to put that. And so you start with a frame.
00:40:20
Speaker
I think I know what's going on. know the reason why that idea or thing is important. And a good story says, often without telling you this, set that frame down and come look at it over through this window.
00:40:33
Speaker
And when we do that, now we may be, we're going to wind up, if we get them in, then maybe we're going to bridge that silo. We're going to see that something different. Again, not to persuade. This isn't about opinion writing or and things like that.
00:40:44
Speaker
It's just to sort of say, if you think it's not worth your time because you've already you're in your silo and you're safe there, let me take you somewhere else. Let me text show you a different perspective. Let me show you a different lens. And let me make sure I do it in a way that's not, eat your peas, do it because it's good for you.
00:41:01
Speaker
No, that's that's that doesn't usually work or that it'll get quickly dismissed. But, you know, there's sort of great stories that we see, and again, in now in multiple forms, whether it's in podcasting, long form, even I think, you know, some really sharp TikTok stuff is, I mean, short form vertical video can be very effective. This is one reason I think that form should be part of this conversation, even as it's otherly, okay?
00:41:29
Speaker
I'm not trying to make everything, you know, i have the same sensibilities. But I do think that To your question about can we break down silos, well, that's what writing hopefully does. But it won't do it if it said, read this, it'll break down your silo.
00:41:44
Speaker
Right. i like Yeah. Well, you brought up a few ah few things, be it ah podcasting, ah you know TikTok, or vertical video. And these are yeah new ah relatively new technologies that are ah just challenging people.
00:42:01
Speaker
what it means to be a journalist or in how journalism responds to it. And historically, journalism has always had to wrestle with the onslaught of new technologies and there's always been pushback and then surrendering and then are maybe embracing.
00:42:14
Speaker
So in that in this phase where there's a kind of a new a new wave of it that journalism has to adapt to. So what are you seeing and how can journalism and journalists best, you know, ride the wave of this new these new technologies?
00:42:31
Speaker
I think first and foremost is fear them not. You know, that doesn't mean they're going to all be great. And that doesn't mean they're not going to have ah traps, ethical challenges ah and.
00:42:45
Speaker
And all kind of you know potential mischief around them. But that said, i think that the journalism business in particular has not the best record in terms of adaptation.
00:42:57
Speaker
um i used to see this and and you know tom knows this is french knows this and others how come they get to work on the big stories and we get to work on the small ones how come they got those are old newsroom saws that are just trite because that it's not an either or right it's not an either so i think the journalism business in general needs to stiff arm or do better at being able to stiff arm resistance to change as a false choice, that there's a good old days or you know and a good way to do things versus new and different ways.
00:43:30
Speaker
Again, you know the the sort of the beauty of digital journalism, even as we lament ah the challenge to the business model for it, is that at a time when we're more fra fragmented than ever, at a time when so many news organizations are struggling, there's a paradox. There's actually more eyes on all the work than ever before.
00:43:51
Speaker
So, how yeah unfortunately, the dollars don't come with that, so we have to do that. But to your question, really, I think the idea here is be open to change and to recognize storytelling comes in lots of different ways.
00:44:04
Speaker
I'm going to go in and put in a plug that um all the forums need editors and honest brokers. I think editors help. And i think it's important to not let sanctimony about the right ways and the wrong ways sort of guide the day. If something works for a particular audience member, I'm not going to go into trite demographic breakdowns of youth or, you know, millennials or Gen Z. that and That's Story is a story, right? Yeah. And so, but TikTok is one form of storytelling.
00:44:39
Speaker
A long, a good read is ah a long form. Good read is another. ah book is another magazine. It's funny, you know, we've sort of seen, you know, the Atlantic come through with some, you know, some really powerful and meaningful time. And I so also hear like in, you know magazines are dying.
00:44:58
Speaker
um those stories are longer than ever. and And what does all of that tell you? It tells you like quick trying to pigeonhole things as one over the other. We all have a variety of appetites great ah for our, you know, reading and writing and consumption of media and stories.
00:45:16
Speaker
And guess what? We all have several ourselves and they're sometimes we're even several different times of day, different circumstances on the road at home.
00:45:28
Speaker
And so we have to simply embrace that it's going to be a much wider playing field. And in that case, this should all be celebrated. So back to vertical video as a form.
00:45:40
Speaker
Let's have more. Let's see. Let's be have some honest calculation about that one was good. That one wasn't because that it shouldn't be that. change in technology should simply also rationalize everything is okay.
00:45:55
Speaker
yeah some of it's Some of it's good, some of it's crap. A lot of fundamentals of journalism cross over all of these platforms. We definitely have a long, rich history that does not need to be tossed out with the bathwater of don't deceive people.
00:46:11
Speaker
That just seems to be the honorable way. so it doesn't mean it can't be a point of view or it can't have certain different sensibilities. But be honest about what it is that you're doing.
00:46:22
Speaker
um Don't make stuff up and say it's not made up. You know, there's things like that. So I think if we embrace some of the, recognize that some of the fundamentals will carry over to the forum.
00:46:33
Speaker
Now let's start to talk about, well, that worked. That was worth my time. I laughed at that. I cried at that. This one made me smarter. This was an outright was outright BS.
00:46:46
Speaker
we can begin to um start to see these forums as part of the whole opportunity for telling stories and not an either or. and know I think a lot of people who listen to the show are are freelancers, one form or another, be a freelance journalists or freelance writers delving into different, their toe into different kinds of writing.
00:47:06
Speaker
And just in your experience of working with freelancers and how a lot of lot of freelancers are turned loose ah these days, like what's the best way that freelancers can and still make a go of it and and make themselves as resilient as possible?
00:47:22
Speaker
So I totally think that more and more storytelling is coming through freelancers and just because of the the economics, as you suggest, as well as ah people wanting their own flexibility to go off and do live in certain places and see different things and in and embrace different forms.
00:47:39
Speaker
So I think it's kind of a, it's sort of like it's a half full and a half empty glass. so a half empty side. And I think a lot of freelancers have a really tough road. They don't get the support they need.
00:47:51
Speaker
It's lonely. And then they have to be both, you know, they have to constantly juggle things the sort of the business of living with, you know, the creative pursuit. And sometimes those things are in a bit of collision, certainly from off time standpoint.
00:48:05
Speaker
So that's the half empty glass. And I think at Pointer and other places, we're trying hard to sort of find ways to support them, even if they don't have this sort of structural or institutional backing that more traditional lanes have.
00:48:20
Speaker
On the upside, there's a great range and I think one um a range of opportunity. ah There's a real need as more and more organizations downsize and and and go to freelancer contract type employees.
00:48:35
Speaker
I would say one thing that that I see and that, I don't know, maybe I'll come up with something, a point of a sort of help with. Sorry to, you know, go I hope I'm not sounding like I've got a trope here, but unfortunately for freelancers, they don't have editors.
00:48:50
Speaker
and a lot of times they're pitching stuff that hasn't had that front end conversation because they either didn't have it, anybody to have it with, or they didn't have a structural component to sort of do it.
00:49:02
Speaker
So I think that ah look at whether it any kind of good reporting or journalism or you know, even news organizations need to embrace this relationships are everything. So if, if freelancers can strike up a relationship,
00:49:20
Speaker
not just with other editors, but with organizations and have us you know maybe ah and sort of a group of ah folks that they work with so that they are, even if they're still independently employed, but that they have some kind of way to have that conversation that maybe then yields you know the concept note or the story note or the story proposal in a way that puts them in ah in a position that ah everything is not a cold call or a cold opening.
00:49:53
Speaker
I mean, a cold offering. Um, I think that there's going to be a lot of opportunity for them because we need them. Uh, and we certainly know we need them. Now I'm speaking as a journalist in international coverage. So few organizations are doing any, and if it wasn't for freelance photographers and freelance writers, a lot of stuff would go on unknown in a lot of ways because you can't have everything come through know, at times or the guardian or whatever it is.
00:50:19
Speaker
And so I think freelancers have a tough road, but also have great opportunity. We were just talking about a project we're going to do here at pointer and using some freelancers and having a relationship with a few, we can sort of know and count on.
00:50:33
Speaker
And it's not because one can count on because it'll be quick. It's no one count on because we can have a relationship to really talk out the story with, with them.
00:50:45
Speaker
So, I think helping freelancers develop relationships, recognizing that even if you're independently writing and offering up your work, that if you can find a way either on your own or through your relationships to have it talked out and some early editing, that will serve the freelancers well.
00:51:08
Speaker
Oh, that's great. but Well, the I feel like we could talk for six hours about so many awesome topics about ah just the the rich tapestry that is journalism and the in the this ah first quarter of the 21st century and how we proceed from here.
00:51:24
Speaker
and So maybe that's an open door for down the road where we can ah pull on more more and more threads um But as I bring these conversations down for a landing, I always love asking the guests just for a recommendation of some kind for the listeners out there. Just something that's exciting you and ah bringing you some happiness and excitement. I just wonder if there's anything you've thought of that you might ah want to share with the audience.
00:51:45
Speaker
Well, I just finished. It went by fast, but I just finished my ninth year on the Pulitzer Prize ah board may on the board of the Pulitzer Prizes. And I'm term limited out, so I'm done. And so I won't be judging the the contest anymore.
00:51:59
Speaker
You know, ah one of the it's it's a few years old now, but one of the great honors I had or of my favorites, people say, well, one of the things you read was a book called Invisible Child by Andrea Elliott. don't know if you've had her on. No, not yet.
00:52:15
Speaker
It's a series. it's ah It was a series of The new York Times when she was reporter there. And then she turned it into a book. And it's it's about as. It's an unbelievable book about a girl named Dasani living in the projects in Staten Island in the Bronx. And she embedded with the family. She lived with the family as Dasani grew up and was trying and and there were efforts to give Dasani more and more opportunities.
00:52:42
Speaker
And in that, you could sort of see just the power of when you can really embed with folks and and see things. with your own eyes and get the level of detail. And suddenly back to the point about, so there's Dasani, but man, I learned more about why social services in a bureaucracy fail people.
00:53:04
Speaker
all through narrative and story, not through any policy work or anything like that, but just just through the profound forces that are just working against some people. And so i just, I happen to be thinking about that and coming off the board. It's it's about two or three years old, the book, um but it was it won the Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction about three years ago.
00:53:27
Speaker
And I would commend and that work, and I've never met her. i don't even know her, but I can just tell you that that level of ethnographic reporting narrative work is really just shows you the power of a story to make you smarter without it being like, you know, like a policy lesson.
00:53:46
Speaker
Oh, fantastic. Well, Neil, thank you so much for carving out the time to do this. And I look forward to having more of these conversations down the road. If you know, if your schedule allows, but this is, I'm so grateful we were able to do this now. So just thanks for the time and thanks for talking shop.
00:54:00
Speaker
It was really a treat running to talk to you. We could talk about this for hours. And so let's do it again. Awesome.
00:54:10
Speaker
Yeah. ah yeah
00:54:16
Speaker
Why do I do that? Thanks to Neil for the time and patience since we recorded this some four months ago. See, that's why the double features are happening. I i need to just get through the backlog. and not Not because I want to dismiss them or...
00:54:34
Speaker
de-emphasize them. I just need to get through them. You know, that people are waiting a long time for their episodes. And here we go. I'm wasting more time. Great. Awesome. Good job, B.O. Thanks also to Pointer.
00:54:45
Speaker
Pointer? Sure. Thanks to Pointer, just for everything. ah But thanks to the Power of Narrative Conference for the promotional support. ah And Pointer. Pointer's great. I've been reading them for years.
00:54:57
Speaker
If you want to support me and the show, why you would now, I don't know. You can do any one of the following. The more the better. Go to patreon.com slash cnfpod. Shop around.
00:55:08
Speaker
Pre-order the Front Runner. I wrote a book. Link up to the podcast wherever. Leave a kind review on Apple Podcasts or a rating on Spotify. and sign up for the companion sub stack.
00:55:19
Speaker
That's a lot of shit. I was recording an interview the other day with Cassidy Randall, author of 30 Below. As I like to do, I asked her about her, you know, loose routine, and you know, what she likes to do to fire up the engine, you know.
00:55:32
Speaker
And being a journalist, she quickly turned the question around on me. Thanks, Cassidy. Which I will edit out of the final cut. Sorry for you. But it underscores ah strangely insidious subset of the creative ecosystem.
00:55:46
Speaker
This morning routine obsession. Routine porn. At the heart of it really is insecure people or people struggling with resistance who want to mainline the routines of me who they deem to be successful people.
00:56:01
Speaker
Because if they adopt similar practices, then maybe the residue of that success will rub off little grease the skids to riches and beautiful people on each arm.
00:56:13
Speaker
I think it was the the life hackiest of all the bro podcasters in Tim Ferriss who really popularized this a little more than a decade ago, roughly.
00:56:24
Speaker
My reasons for still loving hearing about routines and rituals have changed. and I'll get to that in a moment. But he'd ask certain people and look at his guest list. Primarily white dudes.
00:56:35
Speaker
The bane of many white male podcast hosts. I did a gender audit on him and a few others when CNF pod was gaining altitude. And let's just say those guest lists are skewed.
00:56:49
Speaker
ah He would ask certain people about the first 90 minutes of their day. i mean you You'd see other people posting about like their morning routines on YouTube or wherever. you know The seven things I do from the moment I wake up. The 549 things I can't help but do before I open my computer.
00:57:06
Speaker
What's happening is people are looking to shortcut the work, like taking PEDs. Yeah, maybe I should drink 16 ounces of water when I wake up. Just like so-and-so, and then take a cold plunge, and then fall by a sauna, and and then ah can't forget my electroshop therapy. So underrated. So retro.
00:57:25
Speaker
People are also looking for the magic bullet to unlock their frustrated creative selves that are shelled in a husk of bullshit we need to do simply to operate on a daily basis.
00:57:37
Speaker
That if we had this ideal morning routine used by the by some famous artist with a real slick Instagram feed, then like our wildest dreams will come true. As Seth Godin would say, it's just another way of hiding.
00:57:49
Speaker
I'm particularly sensitive to this routine porn because in my deepest career and creative frustrations of my early 30s in the early part of the 2010s, I was seduced by these ideas of hacks and quick fixes.
00:58:03
Speaker
i fooled myself into thinking I'm not afraid of hard work, but I was so stuck in the mud and jealous and bitter that I felt that maybe if I could cherry pick the best routines possible from all these luminaries, I'd be so much better off.
00:58:16
Speaker
Like, what a fucking idiot. is If I was such a hard worker, why wasn't I just making more concerted effort at making and researching better pitches? A shiny new morning routine wasn't going to change the fact that I sucked ass.
00:58:29
Speaker
But you might also say, then why do you ask most guests how they go about their work, their routines and their rituals on the podcast, if you say you don't care about them, B.O.?
00:58:40
Speaker
fair but my mind has shifted more towards curiosity about the weird things we do to get creative work done around hectic lives screaming children traumatized dogs dementia addled parents et etc Because I think how people crank and prime that engine says something deeply meaningful about them. It's revealing.
00:59:03
Speaker
Especially when it's not performative. Like when it's not done for for likes but for lucidity. Social media makes us think we need to leverage every minute of our creative lives as content, as brand making.
00:59:17
Speaker
This mindfuck has stripped mind the best parts of ourselves. Someone might get 100,000 meaningless Instagram followers, but it probably won't be us. All this is to say, yes, find a few rituals and things that get you there. And if you hear something that's really cool from someone you heard on a show, it's like, oh yeah, but by all means, add it to your cart.
00:59:37
Speaker
Don't get lost in trying to find that perfect routine. I guess is what I'm saying. And is guess what I would want to tell that 2011 version of my dumbass. you know And not so many things that you're burned out by the laundry list of items that constitutes a veritable workday unto itself.
00:59:54
Speaker
yeah Keep it loose, keep it fluid in the event that life throws shit at you. Don't beat yourself up too much if you weren't able to meditate for 30 minutes, followed by painstakingly making pour-over coffee, then going for a 45-minute walk to forest bait before you sit down and journal those three pages.
01:00:12
Speaker
My biggest gripes are ones I recognize in a past version of myself. And I can honestly say, if I'd spent my time working on pitches, researching deeper, more fleshed out stories, I wouldn't be so far behind.
01:00:28
Speaker
Whatever the fuck behind means. So stay wild, C&Evers. And if you can do interviews, see
01:00:51
Speaker
you