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84. Finding Hope and Engaging with Empathy with Julie Murray
479 Plays10 months ago
Julie Murray, a victim's advocate, the current host of the Media Pressure podcast, and the sister of Maureen Murray, a 21-year-old woman who went missing in 2004 in New Hampshire, is the host of a new podcast called Media Pressure, where she not only tells the story of her sister, Maura's disappearance from the perspective of her family, she has also become an advocate for victims and their families and one of the leading voices calling for empathy in the true crime space.
Today we're going to discuss how you grieve when you do not know what happened to your loved one or get a chance to say goodbye. We're going to talk about the victim's needs from law enforcement, the public, and the media, some of the challenges that families face in this new media landscape in a better way for law enforcement, courts, the media, and the public to help support loved ones as they try to mourn, heal, find peace, and search for answers. We also discuss things that we can all do to manage our losses, which are universal.
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Transcript
Relentless Hope and Advocacy
00:00:00
Speaker
Well, I mean, for for me personally, I really just want an answer. i I'm still at the stage where we don't know why she went to New Hampshire. We don't know really anything. We don't know a whole lot more than we knew the night that we got the call that she was missing. And so I would like just one answer and that would fuel me to continue on to get the next answer. Okay. And then maybe we'll find her and then, you know, then we could get justice. And so that's kind of the motivating factor for me. Um, but I do talk about hope a lot and that's something that is not talked about enough and how that's all that
00:00:52
Speaker
family members of long-term missing and murdered cases have. That's what motivates us. it It fuels us. Um, but it also torments us because you know, there's some days where you just resign yourself to the fact that you may never know and you have to come to terms with that and you have to allow yourself to be okay with that. You might never know, but you're still going to have, You're still going to try. You're not going to give up. And sometimes you so you can see family members just move on and and lose that hope. And it's heartbreaking to see and hear. And so something I tell family members is no matter what, you cannot lose hope.
00:01:41
Speaker
That's Julie Murray, a victim's advocate, the current host of the Media Pressure podcast, and the sister of Maureen Murray, a 21-year-old woman who went missing in 2004 in New Hampshire. This is the Silver Linings Handbook podcast. I'm Jason Blair.
00:02:15
Speaker
Julie Murray is the host of a new podcast called Media Pressure, where she not only tells the story of her sister, Maura's disappearance from the perspective of her family, Julie also has become an advocate for victims and their families and one of the leading voices calling for empathy in the true crime space. On February 9th, 2004, Julie's sister, Maura, a student at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, left her campus dorm room and began driving in her Black Saturn sedan. At some point, she headed north. Sometime after 7 p.m., a resident in Woodsville, New Hampshire heard a loud sound outside her house.
00:03:02
Speaker
Through a window, she saw a car on the opposite side of the road. A passing motorist who lived nearby stopped at the scene and said he offered a young woman, who was presumably Maura, help, but that she declined. The motorist called the police, he said, because he knew that there was no cell phone service in the area. The police say that by the time they had arrived, the woman had disappeared. The police report said the car's windshield was cracked, the airbags had deployed, the car was locked, and directions to Burlington, Vermont were found inside.
00:03:42
Speaker
The case was treated as a missing persons case and eventually was deemed suspicious. The investigation has turned up few tangible clues. Maura had vanished without a trace.
Empathy and Media Challenges
00:03:56
Speaker
Maura's disappearance began years-long journey for her family as they sought to find her, wrestled with law enforcement, and attempted to advocate for her in the true crime and media spaces. Moore's disappearance was described on Oxygen and Television Network as, quote, the first crime mystery of the social media age. Along the way, the family also struggled with misinterpretations of their actions, Moore's life, and what happened that day, and encountered those who sought to take advantage of what to them was one of the biggest true crime cases, but to the family was their lost sister, daughter, and loved one.
00:04:39
Speaker
It became a space where speculation was taken as fact and the victim and her loved ones took a backseat to the true crime mystery. These and the other reasons are why Julie started an Engage with Empathy campaign to unite survivors of crime and the true crime industry, supporters and content creators to help with the difficult journey of those struggling with loss and to make it a little more bearable. On the official website run by the family, you can find a quote from Samantha Power, the human rights advocate who wrote the seminal book, A Problem from Hell, about genocide. Power says, quote, all advocacy at its core is an exercise in empathy.
00:05:26
Speaker
The campaign recognizes that both the internet, social media, and true crime can be dark and dangerous spaces for people who are vulnerable and the cost to loved ones in the background can be enormously high. It's easy to look at Julie's situation as sui generis, but many people have loved ones taken from them out of the blue and all of us go through suffering. Today we're going to discuss how you grieve when you do not know what happened to your loved one or get a chance to say goodbye. We're going to talk about the victim's needs from law enforcement, the public, and the media. Some of the challenges that families face in this new media landscape
00:06:10
Speaker
and a better way for law enforcement, courts, the media, and the public to help support loved ones as they try to mourn, heal, find peace, and search for answers. And we're also going to be talking about things that we can all do to manage our losses, which are universal.
00:06:43
Speaker
Hey Joy, I just wanted to take a minute to thank you for joining today and and just give you an idea of sort of why I originally reached out. I had, um you know, recently I've been thinking a lot about sort of the, not just the true crime space, but the criminal justice space and in media coverage of it. And one of the things I had been thinking about recently is, you know, the criminal justice system is really struggling with how to handle the media, the coverage, YouTubers, podcasters, other people like that. And I've sort of felt that between things like judges issuing gag orders and families being just overwhelmed by the process, the media saturation and in some cases harassment. One of the things that I had noticed is that less and less am I hearing the voices of
00:07:37
Speaker
um victims' families. And so I had been thinking about that. And then somehow, I don't know whether it was TikTok or Instagram or whoever it was, fed me a video of you giving a conversation about victims' advocacy. and then And then at some point after that, there your name popped up again. And then I heard you give an interview on a podcast right after that. And I thought, OK, this is the universe telling me that I need to talk to Julie Murray. So thank you. yeah Yeah, well, thank you for reaching out. i I really appreciate it. And you're right, the victims and the secondary victims, the families, are usually just steamrolled in these stories and these cases and pushed to the side. and
00:08:23
Speaker
um We're missing a big piece to each of the stories not only my sisters but all the other unsolved missing and murdered that are out there by just kind of blanket Lee stating that while the family is too subjective, too emotionally involved to be able to speak on their loved ones' cases. But who better to speak on these cases and these stories than the people most affected? And that's the family members.
00:08:56
Speaker
Yeah, and I and i think it, I mean, it feels to me like the just thing to do to sort of raise the voices of victims' families. You know, i but I was talking to an investigator not too long ago or a retired investigator was saying to me that police officers and investigators will often make this mistake of not spending enough time with the families because and And the point she was making is how the victim lived their life and the truth about them as opposed to all the rumors you hear are we one of the sort of cornerstones to um being able to solve
Grief and Media Representation
00:09:34
Speaker
a case. And I was recently having a conversation with a defense attorney who was like, oh, but
00:09:39
Speaker
you know, defendants' rights need to go first. And I pointed out to him, you do realize the 17th word in the Constitution is justice. And I just think sometimes we, we I don't know what it is about um the system or even the coverage that we pay, it feels like to me, this is just the feeling I get, that if I were to line up a ton of people, they would all say to me that the victim's family um and the victims themselves are very important. But then i when I watch the behaviors, I see something very different. Is is that something you experience? Yes, absolutely. I've experienced that. I've had 20 years of experience in in dealing with that. And
00:10:30
Speaker
A lot of times what you see is these stories and the victims boil down to the few decisions that they made before tragedy struck. And the same can be said about my sister's case. What's missing in all of that is the more holistic view of the actual human being before the tragedy struck and who they really were as a human being and how they navigated the world and.
00:11:02
Speaker
were missing a lot by just boiling down a story to a couple decisions that the victims made before um they went missing or murdered or whatever the case may be and that certainly has rung true in my sister's case and that's one of the motivating factors for why I became more public because I was seeing all of this discourse online speaking ah about my sister, and it's from the lens through the lens of strangers who never met her. And I wanted to give the alternative perspective of someone who grew up with her, who shares her DNA, who knew her best to kind of
00:11:49
Speaker
give some of her humanity back because what happens is when you have so much coverage, especially in a big case like my sister's case, you lose who the who the person actually was and the person becomes more of a character in a screenplay than a human being It's interesting you say that because I've always, even in you know the work I did as a journalist, one of the things that I sort of hated was the worst case scenario is we have a distorted picture of the victim.
00:12:26
Speaker
And I feel like that happens often, but often those, and not often, but at times those people will get called out. But almost at the best, we have a flattened picture if we're not talking to the people who knew them. And when you were describing that point about only paying attention to the last moments or days of someone's life, it just feels like it flattens them and you you don't really see what they loved or what they were like or what mattered to them. You just see those last moments and they become this almost flattened distortion. What was what was your sister like? Well, my sister was
00:13:11
Speaker
Much more than just a young 21-year-old college kid who made some poor decisions, she was extremely talented both athletically and academically. She was a phenom on the track. She made nationals. She broke every record in the high school. She um just loved to compete. um And that was also true in the classroom. She graduated fourth in her class. She got astronomical SAT scores, almost perfect on the math portion of the s SATs, which
00:13:52
Speaker
I'm very jealous of because I was not too fortunate enough to get that gene. ah um Just a really talented individual. but what i like to When I describe Maura, I like to let people know that she would be the last person to tell you any of that and she was humble and she was kind and she was unassuming and she wanted to leave places better than she. Came upon them and um.
00:14:30
Speaker
She just had her whole future ahead of her, and she wanted to be a nurse, and my mother was a nurse, and she wanted to help people, and just an outstanding human being with flaws, as we all have. And um throughout the coverage of the last 20 years, people only focus on the flaws and the poor decisions. And I would argue that if you put a microscope on any of us at 21 years old, we we would also have a like one or one exactly we would have a a litany of decisions on our resume. And so um she's typically boiled down to those few poor decisions that she made. And um she was much more than that. and um
00:15:19
Speaker
if she was funny, she was witty, she was um you know just just somebody that you wanted to be around. and um Yeah. It sounds like from you know what I have read, and that's limited, it sounded like she was very altruistic, very open-minded. um and you know there are You can see those nuggets in some places of where people are talking about how much she um cared about people. But is is that what you think drove her, those kinds of things, sort of drove her and propelled her forward? Because we all have our crosses that we bear. All of us are bearing crosses and something has to push us through it.
00:16:06
Speaker
Right. Yeah, I think she deeply internalized a lot. And again, when you're 21 years old, your view of the world is very limited. And so things that we would consider as adults as not that big of a deal, a fight with a boyfriend or a bad grade, are magnified because of your limited scope of the world at that age. And it it turns into a much bigger deal um because you're so limited in your experiences. And I think that is part of the reason what
00:16:45
Speaker
what drove her to make that poor decision to get in her car and drive to New Hampshire on a Monday night in the middle of February and not tell anyone. Right. Well, and it it makes sense. I think about it with kids and I think about it with young adults that until you've been through something and sometimes until you've been through it several times, you don't always know that you're going to survive or be OK. And I just think that that's um you know It's an important thing to think about because i you know I hate to put it this way, but I think that in a lot of cases,
00:17:22
Speaker
where someone goes missing or is murdered, I think that there's a lot of judgment of the person. And I don't necessarily mean that entirely in a negative sense, but people go to asking themselves, what did this person do or what did they do? And I think we don't think enough about the fact that we've probably all done things Just like that, like, you know, if I disappeared this afternoon, people are gonna wonder why, I don't know, I didn't take a shower and I decided to drive this way instead of driving that way, but they didn't realize I, you know, I saw a goose in that direction that I wanted to follow or whatever it is. And, you know, I think there's, um,
00:18:08
Speaker
probably a lack of starting with empathizing with people when it comes to things like this and imagining ourselves in people's shoes or even imagining what they're like. That's and that's one thing I really do like about um your podcast and your sister is I felt like I was getting more of a four-dimensional or even five-dimensional human being Yeah. That's the point that I wanted to get across. The message that I wanted listeners to walk away with was, we're talking about a multidimensional human being. And I wanted to bring in people, not only myself, but other family members to give different perspectives and friends and people that she crossed paths with to
00:18:56
Speaker
Paint that holistic view of who she was as a human and um Based on the feedback that i've gotten from the podcast that that is what people are are walking away with and they're no longer thinking of her as this character as this just um storyline or plot device and they're seeing her as as a human being and that is probably been the most um rewarding part of telling her story in my own words in the first place. Yeah. Well, because it's sort of like in a way, one of the things that I thought when I was listening, I think it was a couple episodes and I was like, wow, Julie's really singing
00:19:44
Speaker
sort of her sister's song. She's telling her story and that stuck in my head because I know for me, ah last year, last October, my mom passed away and I was crying a couple weeks later and someone said, don't cry. And I said, no, that's okay because my tears are just, this is just me singing my song for my mom. and I sort of felt like you were doing that to some extent in your podcast. Yeah, that's a beautiful way to to put it. and yeah that that is I'm glad that you got that message because that's exactly what I was trying to do.
Family Grieving and Public Exposure
00:20:27
Speaker
yeah okay i One of the things that I was, you know I really think that we don't do enough. We talk we talk a lot about um
00:20:37
Speaker
like you said, when somebody disappears or or or the time before and we don't really talk about there their life. And I know you've done some of that, but I also feel like in this particular case, it seems like your family has also gotten flat flattened collectively. And I was wondering if there's anything you want to share about Mora and your family that you would want people to know? Yeah, absolutely. you're And you're right. are my fan Everyone in my family has become a character in the story. And our humanity is also stripped away. And our decisions are also put under the microscope and dissected. And what people don't realize is that when tragedy strikes like this,
00:21:28
Speaker
ah Families don't know what to do that. You're not given a guidebook, you know do this don't do this Here's how you interact with media. Here's the things that you should be doing don't Trust these people and so yeah we're just winging it and of course we made mistakes every family in this position makes mistakes um but since her case is so high profile, um every single decision, every single word that we said even early on and even now 20 years later is up for public debate and people want to find hidden hidden meaning to the things that we're doing and saying when in reality we're just
00:22:15
Speaker
Trying to get by we're trying to find mara and we don't always say the right thing we don't always do the right thing and. It's a hard, it's hard to balance because on the one hand we need social media and the awareness because that's how cold cases are solved. So we have to put ourselves out there and by doing so we become targets for internet debate. And it's just part of
00:22:51
Speaker
the process. And my family has certainly experienced the negative side of being public and advocating for answers and resolution. And it's not an easy road to go down. And there are other families who opt not to be public because of that very reason. And it's unfortunate because there's ah victims out there that that people have that don't know about, they don't know the case, they don't know the name, they don't know the photo because there is a level of privacy that these families just feel like they need because it's a constant grieving process. The grieving process isn't like traditional loss where you go through the different stages, you know what happened, you are able to
00:23:48
Speaker
have a memorial or a burial and move on with your grief process. Our grief process is cyclical. So it bounces from stage to stage and we have no control over when each stage is going to hit us. I mean, I could be coming home from work on a Tuesday and a song comes on that reminds me of Mara and I just lose it. And that's what people don't see. That's not, you're not going to see that in the coverage on the internet.
00:24:20
Speaker
Right, right. I had em sat down with Bruce Maitland ah earlier this year and you know one of the things his daughter Brianna um went missing, what was it? Maybe ah ah about a month after Mora and we were talking about, he was talking about how important it is to respect that different people within even the same family. need to be able to um process things their own way and go through their mourning process, which we already know when someone dies, it's never ending. But he was making the point that the uncertainty of missing a person being missing makes it so much harder. um and And as he was talking about that idea of like the importance of
00:25:16
Speaker
respecting that, i I was sort of thinking to myself, what happens in a family where we no one feels like that they can speak up and stand out? Because I even think of a case like Morris case, which is very well known, but at the same time, it may be very well known within the true crime community. It may be very well known among you know certain law enforcement, but it' To your point that you do need social media, I'm willing to bet there are a ton of people who don't know necessarily about the case or what they might have seen or heard or could be helpful. And I just wonder about those families where nobody feels strong enough to to sort of raise their voice and bring awareness.
00:26:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's scary. It's scary to put yourself out there. It's scary to become a target. It's scary to get online and receive hateful comments and people casting aspersions on you, the family member who are just trying to raise awareness for your loved one. And not all family families and not all family members are in the right emotional headspace to do that. I can say from my own experience, it took me years to be in the right headspace to be able to put myself out there publicly and sort of be this public facing figure for my family.
00:26:44
Speaker
yeah That was sort of forced into it because my aunt Helena passed away and she was the public facing spokesperson for my family and the the conduit between the media and law enforcement and um Yeah, there are so many families out there that just aren't able to do it, don't have the resources, don't have the emotional capacity to do it. And that's okay. And that doesn't mean that they'll never be in a right headspace to do it. But I think forcing families to speak on these deeply, deeply personal stories is, um,
00:27:28
Speaker
one of the problems with two true crime, it's almost as if the public feels like the cases are public property and the families owe the public all these deep personal stories. And we don't, we're private citizens and tragedy happened to us. We're not, we're not obligated to share anything really. That's interesting. thing because it's that that idea that things sort of flip once a case begins to get attention and it you know it's it becomes I guess instead of
00:28:17
Speaker
I mean, you use the word obligation, but people feel like you there's a certain role you have to play and things that you have to share and in questions you have to answer. And you know another thing that sort of stuck out about what you said, I was just thinking about like that idea that time is constantly in motion and where we emotionally are moves. um And it sounds like it was an evolution for you to get to the point where you you could talk to you. Do you ever feel dazed now where you feel like you're not equipped? Do you give yourself the grace to... to
00:28:56
Speaker
to have that, you know, Bruce said something really interesting. And this was before we actually got on the interview. He said, there's a part of a part of Brianna that's just for me. Like, do you keep that sort of that part of more that's just for you? Or do you give yourself breaks when you need breaks? Like, how do you handle those things? Yeah, it's a it's a tough balance because When you're in a position like mine and in Bruce's, you feel like if you turn down an interview or you turn down a podcast, you're doing a disservice to your loved one. When in reality, you're maintaining your focus or maintaining your mental health to be able to be in this for the long run. and run Um, because
00:29:53
Speaker
you know, Brianna and Mara have been missing for decades and you've got to pick your battles and you can't say yes to everything because you'll burn out and then who's fighting for Mara? Who's fighting for Brianna? So it's definitely a balance. I've learned to set stronger boundaries. for my own mental health um because when I first became the public facing figure for my family, I wouldn't turn down anything because I felt like I owed it to Mara and I needed to speak to anyone that was willing to cover the story. And I learned that that's sometimes detrimental to the overall mission, which is, okay, our how is this furthering the case? and Am I going to be able to sustain this pace? And there are sometimes where, especially after vigils or big news breaks, where I just feel, I call it the media hangover.
00:31:00
Speaker
it's ah It's definitely a real thing and you you do all of these interviews and you're pouring your heart and soul and it's so emotional and you get through it and then the next day you just feel like you were hit by a Mac truck. And that's happened to me many times and so I've learned to scale it back a little bit and be um more selective on what I choose to do with my time. Is there advice if there was someone who is listening right now who is in a similar situation um where they've lost a loved one? Is there advice you would give them things that you wish you had known at the beginning that would have that would have really helped you to know?
00:31:49
Speaker
The first thing I would say is you need to get a support system around you whom you trust ah because there are some people in this space that are in it for reasons that are not not always altruistic. and I've found myself in many situations where I accept help and it turns into a quid pro quo situation where
00:32:21
Speaker
the person turns on me and says, well, I helped you with this, now you owe me this. And that's not exactly how it should work. But then you feel that sense of obligation again to make good on on showing your appreciation and making sure that that person feels valued and appreciated. But that is a tough situation to be in because that's not the point, right? You know, the point is someone offers help and you think they have the victim and the family's best interest in mind when in reality they don't. They they want something from you or they want something out of it. So I've learned to
00:33:08
Speaker
Distinguish between those people who are in it for the right reasons and that just takes time and experience um so you need to surround yourself with people you trust so people that can act as a sounding board because a lot of times there's things that. I need to get off my chest. I need a sounding board, but I don't necessarily need to do it on Twitter.
Trust and Systemic Challenges
00:33:31
Speaker
I don't need to put all my thoughts online and then receive feedback from strangers. Sometimes I just need to
00:33:41
Speaker
talk about what I'm feeling and just have someone listen. And if if you can't trust people, sometimes you'll think that they're acting as a sounding board and a confidant, and then you do check Twitter and your comments are now posted online. and so Are there like little little ah warning signs for you? I was thinking as you were talking about like that whole idea of like giving a gift, and part of the reason why I love giving anonymous gifts is because it's truly a gift. like even you know when i When I give a gift, I don't expect anything back from someone for it or don't want anything, but I know sometimes
00:34:26
Speaker
people can be so sensitive on their own that they almost feel like they have to give you something back. So I love anonymous gifts. um But I feel like there are a lot of things in life in thinking about like your story in and many others where it comes and it looks like it's wrapped as a gift, but it really has there's like a price attached to it. Are there any sort of tip offs or clues for people? Yeah, well, I think that the best way to weed some of that out is to take the time to establish rapport. So if you're speaking with somebody or you're coordinating some sort of search effort or awareness effort, if the person isn't willing to listen, isn't willing to do multiple calls, isn't willing to um
00:35:20
Speaker
you know, respond in a way that you feel that you can share some private stuff, some stuff that shouldn't be made public. That's going to come out over time. So if you, you're interacting with a person and they want the information immediately, but you're not in the right head space to talk about it, that's a red flag that that's something that I've learned the hard way. Um, but that's a key indicator. And then of course, um, are they in it Are they in it for the long haul? So do you interact with a person, provide information or an interview or some sort of exchange, and then you never hear from them again? That's another indicator that they're really not in it for the for the right reasons. Yeah.
00:36:13
Speaker
I was thinking about something you had said before about the, um you know, there's no guidebook or there's no roadmap that anyone gives a family that goes through something like that. But I was also thinking that even if there were just thinking of the most stressful days of my life, like two or three of the most stressful days of my life. that even if you had a guidebook or roadmap, you probably wouldn't even know how to use it at that point. like Because I think people have a hard time understanding that logic and everything else that you think you would do, um it just flies out the window. What was it like for you guys when you first found out? What did it feel like for you guys?
00:36:59
Speaker
Oh, it was just just panic. Absolute panic, chaos, dread, all the emotions. And then you know it's hard to fathom. the day after I found out Mara was missing that she wouldn't show up. And then that's compounded day after day after day, months turn into years, years turn into decades. And so you sort of callous yourself over to withstand some of the emotional roller coaster rides that you're gonna embark on when you do. So you're almost like bracing yourself for the pain, right? Yeah.
00:37:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So you you definitely um learn how to do that. And I can't really put into words what it felt like. ah People ask me all the time, when you got the call, You know, where were you? Who called you? What were you doing? I have no idea. I have no idea. That's all blurred. All I remember is the the feeling and the feeling was dread. We knew something was terribly wrong. We didn't know what to do. Um, we didn't know how to navigate it. We didn't have any experience with the media. We didn't have experience with law enforcement.
00:38:21
Speaker
So we just sort of went blind. We just trusted that, okay, the authorities know what they're doing, that that's this is their job. They're going to do the right thing. And um come to find out years later, we found out that there was definitely some um areas within my sister's case that were not even um basic protocols, one-on-one investigative protocols weren't followed, but we had no idea. We just blindly trusted that things were being done. And so there was missed opportunity after missed opportunity. And if I could have that time back, I would have had a notepad and written down every single word that was said. And you just don't know what you're going to do in that situation. Yeah.
00:39:14
Speaker
And I guess that's also probably an argument for families of ah victims like your sister, youre like your family, um and and to be able to have even access or avenues to other people who have gone through similar situations. Were there any families that reached out to you guys and in the early years or days? We were lucky because we had multiple families that reached out and offered assistance and help. So we had the Molly Bish family. Molly Bish was murdered a few years before Maura, and that was in Massachusetts. So we had the Massachusetts bond there, and they helped out and provided resources. and
00:40:05
Speaker
um sort of just an ear and a shoulder um for my family during those early years um as well as the Maitland family. I remember um the Maitland family and my family got together. Bruce actually met my dad and helped search an area and It's this weird thing where two fathers of missing women come together, and you don't need to say any words. There's just this shared grief that's palpable, and that certainly was the case with um Bruce and my dad, and but we're forever grateful for just them being there and and being a support system for my family.
00:40:51
Speaker
um And still to this day, I mean, we're we're close with i'm close with Molly Bish's sister, Heather. um And she's doing amazing things as well as I keep in contact with Bruce as well. Yeah. I mean, it sounds comforting to have hu have that kind of support going through. i you know And I may be completely wrong about this, but I would imagine for a lot of us, not everyone, because we're all so different, that
00:41:27
Speaker
that losing someone like you lost your sister and having someone so important to you just no longer be there to just sort of vanish, I would imagine that if I were in that position, it might, and this may be my own bias because of my own personality, it may get harder for me to sort of develop deep attachments with people. And then to compound that with sort of grifters, manipulators, people who may be well-intentioned, but they're really just in it for a quick moment. Has this entire experience impacted the way that you approach relationships in general? Because I wonder if it would make me more skeptical or more reluctant even to connect.
00:42:16
Speaker
with people out of the fear of loss? because yeah yeah Trust is a casualty when you experience something like this. but It is hard for me to trust anybody. and That permeates into not only my involvement in the investigation, but over into my personal life. and It has many negative effects. and That's something that you know I've been in therapy for and something that I'm working on, something that I'm aware of, um which is the first step of understanding what's going on. um There's also this weird phenomenon that happens. I thought it was just me, but I have a problem making future plans and
00:43:10
Speaker
Say I have an event to go to and I know the date that it's going to be on. The date's not going to change. something in me doesn't allow myself to book the flight. And it's it's nonsensical. I know I'm going, um but I'll wait and wait until the last minute to book the flight. And i can't I couldn't really figure out what was happening. And so I actually talked to other families of missing people and come to find out they also share that same
00:43:43
Speaker
trepidation of future planning because our worlds are so ambiguous and we don't know and we we don't want to take the future for granted and what if something happens. And I know it doesn't make sense and it's illogical, but it's it is something that I've noticed in talking to other families of missing people that happens. Um, not everybody, of course, but there's been a few. Um, and then there's this whole morbidity view of the world. And, you know, you're driving down the street going to dinner and you're looking over and you see,
00:44:25
Speaker
somewhere where you could potentially hide a body. And right you know you don't speak it out loud because you're trying to be a functioning human in society. um But I certainly think it. And with some of my close friends, I'll say it yeah just because I want to get it off my chest. But you do have this weird sense of um morbid thoughts that come through your mind. Oh, yeah. No, it makes sense to me. i've um You know, when I was a reporter, I definitely felt that, you know, particularly as a crime reporter, you're seeing every imaginable way that a person could die. Everything from them being shot in an alley to a brick falling off the side of the school and hitting a scroll in the head. So you don't look at buildings the same way. I'm like looking up for the loose bricks.
00:45:13
Speaker
um And I had a guest who's now a friend, she um lost her cousin to murder, and she told me the story of just like walking down the street one day in her town, which is in the Pacific Northwest, and seeing a girl who looked a little bit like not not not a one for one match but a a little bit like her cousin who was distracted had her earphones in and she just wanted to run up to the girl and say pay attention anything could happen to you but also the thing about not making not
00:45:48
Speaker
Not hitting the last button on plans does sort of make sense to me because there's one aspect of it that's like, I'm always going to be waiting for the call to find out something or some big event that ah you know could potentially happen in the case. But there's another piece about like when you lose somebody who had all these plans for their life, had all these things you know and you had all those plans at the same time and then it all shatters right at once you feel like you don't have really control over things in the same way and i can i mean it's sort of make sense to me why the future would be a hard thing to pull the trigger on if if future got taken away out of an nowhere like that.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And you hit on another point but that I didn't mention about the internet and Most people know this about me, but I love to hike, so did
Empathy in Storytelling
00:46:48
Speaker
Mara. and We love being in nature out in the mountains, camping. That's what we did growing up. and i Before I go on a hike or if I'm on a hike and I don't have signal, I freak out for a minute because I'm thinking, well, what if the investigator calls me? I need to be able to get this call.
00:47:08
Speaker
And it ruins the hike and um the people that are with me think I'm crazy, um but it is a real thing. And even camping, you know, I camp out in the mountains of Virginia and there's a campground that I love that you have to drive about five minutes to the lodge to get signal. And I'll find myself doing that. 8 o'clock at night after I've been at the campsite all day or hiking, just to check, just to make sure, okay, there's no calls. The investigator isn't lining up a big search tomorrow or there's not a break in the case. so so It's sort of like I'm tethered to my phone and it's not a great way to live life and it's not what I'm used to because I want to be able to just shut my laptop, turn the phone off, and go on a vacation, but I can't.
00:48:03
Speaker
And that's another aspect that people just, unless they're in my position, they they just don't understand that because how many times has it actually happened? But that's not the point. It's the potential for it to happen. And in a two decade old case, there's always that potential that, okay, at some point someday I'm going to get that call. And if I'm in the mountains and I miss it, you know how how horrible would that be? And so it's ah it's definitely a struggle um to find the balance to make sure that I'm doing what I need to do to be healthy and happy and also keep my finger on the pulse of what's going on in the case. Yeah. No, I mean, in and in a way it makes complete sense to me because it's that same
00:48:58
Speaker
that anxiety about being disconnected and then, you know, it it exists for all of us. Like there's inevitably somebody who's going to be listening to this conversation and they're going to think of like, I don't know, whatever, their new girlfriend or their new boyfriend and waiting for their texts and not wanting to be out of signal. But then you add to that, it's the most, one of the most important people in your life and it's about honoring them, right? and And I think, you know, the and this is, you probably see my brain the way my mind works, like it's it's about being able to have, allowing people to speak and then being able to find empathy and connection with them, if that makes sense.
00:49:39
Speaker
um and And I think so much of what you're saying is is so relatable to people if they can connect it to something in their life. But I think the most important piece goes back to I think what we were originally talking about is if you don't give people like you the opportunity to just even be heard about how you feel, how it feels, how things impact you. um it's It's really difficult and it takes me back to like the days of of being a journalist and thinking about all the things that we would find out about, let's say a perpetrator or a victim or some ancillary person or a witness. um and In this sort of modern age of media, I've found that all of those things get dumped out immediately.
00:50:29
Speaker
where you know if you go back 20 years or you go back 25 years, we would stop and pause and say, like, does this really add anything to the story? I know it's like really salacious and it sounds X, Y, or Z, but this is gonna do... harm without really adding much value to the story. And I feel like we've sort of lost that. And it's very interesting. Someone was asking me what makes a journalist. I was like, oh, what makes a journalist is you collect information and you share information. That's constitutionally. But one of the core parts when you look at the ethics, the voluntary code of ethics for journalists is you minimize harm. Right. And I feel like people there's no incentive for people to pause and ask, like,
00:51:16
Speaker
Is this adding any value? Is it creating any harm? And what's the balance? yeah Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've definitely experienced that and this idea that you need to be first, the race to be first. And what happens is that causes so much harm to the families who aren't given any sort of warning or heads up and they just see a headline. breaking news, you know whether it's actually breaking news or not, doesn't matter. You still get that visceral reaction when you're seeing a story about your loved one or yourself online.
00:51:58
Speaker
and you have You have no warning and so you you stop everything and you need to consume it and figure out what does this mean what. What steps do i need to take if any um and most of the time you don't need to take any steps because it's just totally. um has nothing to do and it's old information but it does give that sense of panic and that pit in your stomach and all the anxiousness that comes with it because you never know. um And that's something that I have worked with um
00:52:40
Speaker
my investigators and law enforcement where they understand that it's important before a major search or some sort of development in the case that the family at least gets A heads up a quick call an email. This is coming um But you don't always see that with the media um sometimes with traditional media, but in today's day and age where you've got youtubers and um freelance and independent journalists out there, they're not always going to give the family the heads up on us a breaking story that probably isn't breaking. and um It takes hours and hours um away from the family just to kind of process that type of information. and Then do you respond? Is it something that needs a response or do you just ignore it? Do you just sit with it? and so There's this whole process that goes with it.
00:53:38
Speaker
yeah and and it Yeah, to even just sort out what's happening. all the I think one of the things that the impact of like the false leads or or or things being made bigger than they really are can be huge for the for the families. That thing you said about like picking up the phone to give a heads up, I can definitely remember some times where we picked up the phone to say to a victim's family, hey, we're doing this three-part series. You may not want to read the third part. like We made the decision that some of this stuff is going in, but you know here's why or whatever it is. and I think a lot of creators today don't even know that they can pick up the phone and reach out, but to me, it's just like make the effort. It's not that hard, but it brings me to a question. um I saw that video that I had mentioned before about you talking about
00:54:30
Speaker
that that concept or that idea of engaging with empathy. And it really stuck out to me that in so many of these conversations that we have about crime or the criminal justice system, whether it's the defense attorneys or the prosecutors or law enforcement, us and the media, judges, you can pick. um We don't spend a lot of time A, getting to know people, figuring out what what what would be empathetic and what or even just how certain things would feel for you all. And I'm just wondering, you know, I think sometimes people think that if I become close to where I find out the needs of certain people, all of a sudden that's gonna change the way that I cover something or I handle something or I investigate something. But the reality is,
00:55:23
Speaker
I think it just leaves you informed so you can take that into consideration. So I'm wondering, what can we do to engage with that kind of empathy and take into consideration um the feelings of families like yours? Well, I think ah one of the key things here, and and I've certainly been um blamed for this. um I don't think I deserve it, but this idea that families want to censor the information.
00:55:56
Speaker
I want to control the information. That's simply not true. If there's information about my sister that is relevant to the case and is fact-based, then ah sure, I want that out there. I don't want to censor facts. But if it's salacious, if it's not based in fact, if it's just hearsay, it has nothing to do with furthering the case, then that needs to be considered before it's posted. um That's not always the case because, again, the rush to be first and people want to get the story out even if it's not fully vetted yet.
00:56:37
Speaker
um So this idea that family members are trying to censor information or control the narrative, listen, I want to find my sister. That's what I want. And if more information surfaces, I want it out because that could mean that it could reach someone, it could jog their memory, it could further the investigation. But the majority of the information that comes out, especially in my sister's case, from independent type folks are not based in fact and just rumors. And that's hurtful both to the investigation and to the family members. So giving giving a heads up or saying, hey, I found out this new information. Do you know anything about it? um That goes a long way. And I'm
00:57:28
Speaker
I don't have any authority to tell anyone, hey, don't do that. um But I could certainly add context. I could add nuance. I could make a correction. Or I could say, here's somebody that you could talk to within the cold case unit that could maybe provide some additional detail. Or here's a private investigator that might know something that you don't, so that you can really develop whatever information that you think you have. and into something that's more fact-based. So the key thing is centering the victim with with this type of breaking news um and then, of course, avoiding speculation. And that means to you you're going to have to do some due diligence, you're going to have to do some research, and that's not sexy, right? That takes time and it that takes time and effort and
00:58:21
Speaker
You may think you're missing your window to be first to get the story out when in fact that's what you should be doing you should be fact checking before you just plaster something online that could be hurtful to everyone involved.
Victim-Centered Reporting
00:58:36
Speaker
and so It's interesting you said that that when you said the phrase centering the victim, I think if I had heard that before this conversation, I would have instantly had that image of like, you know, putting a halo over the head of the victim and kind of like making them perfect. But when you said it, I really thought
00:58:55
Speaker
something different, like almost like, you know, centering the victim is really about solving their case, about sort of caring for, you know, the values, protecting their families, all these different things. Right. But but the most important part, of course, is is bringing them justice. It sounds like right centering them really because you made those points. It's not just like that idea of not saying something that would be negative about the victim or that might be hurtful for the family, but being careful about those things, but but still doing it if it will help solve the case.
00:59:38
Speaker
Right. And my sister's case is a prime example for this. There's a ton of unflattering information about my family and about my sister. And some of that furthers the case. Some of that gives us better insight into her mental state when she made the decision to go north in her car that was running on three cylinders. I'm all for that. Um, this isn't about making the victim seem perfect because I will be the first to tell you that my sister wasn't perfect. My family's not perfect. I'm not perfect. I make a ton of mistakes, but and none of us are. We should add that part. And then you've got to, as a journalist, you got to balance. Is this in the public interest so or does this piece of information
01:00:30
Speaker
have any relevance to furthering the case? Does it have anything to even do with the victim? And what is the harm in publicizing it? And so that's the balance that I wish um would have been considered in some of the early and some of the recent coverage on my sister's case. the um in terms of you know your your sister's case on some levels is different probably to some extent when it happened, the story, you know her age, all sorts of things probably played a role in it. i And I wanted to ask you, do you think
01:01:12
Speaker
I imagine it's different for you all because you have the media spotlight, but then in some way your suffering is like every other person who loses someone to being missing, like the the truly deep part of it is probably universal for people. Yeah. I mean, in all of these stories, you've got this family ecosystem and a key member is torn away. And the family ecosystem is
01:01:47
Speaker
Is different from that point forward and you have to figure out a way to continue to support each other and um move on without this integral part of your life and um It's not easy and the media certainly um doesn't always necessarily grasp onto that concept. and yeah yeah well and
01:02:18
Speaker
you know it it's It's funny too because I think you know you're probably onto something about the the ah everybody wanting to be first, but I think some of the things that you're talking about doing, like reaching out, and even if you can't connect with family members, try to put yourself in their shoes if you can't reach them. It costs you very little, actually. It really costs you very little. Um, maybe you'll be, I don't know, 30 seconds later or an hour later on the tweet, but rarely, rarely do I hear talking, people talking about like Joe tweeted that faster than Jim. Like this it's not exactly what we're thinking about, but, um, or you know, it doesn't cost you,
01:03:05
Speaker
um It doesn't cost you anything to be nice. It doesn't cost you anything to be silent. You know what I mean? It doesn't. But you can can create big costs for people. So I have ah i have a kind of running theory that in watching the sort of content ecosystem. And you know i I sort of feel like particularly in the last, I don't know, five to six years, there is more and more content, sub-stack, YouTube, Twitter, pic, all sorts of different things. And it's very varied. And some of it comes from the perspective of people who consider themselves advocates, journalists, experts,
01:03:43
Speaker
ah you know attorneys, or or other people doing analytical work. They're very, very different in their backgrounds. And There was a day in age where the vast majority of people covering um cases like this would have been traditional media. And there were systems that law enforcement had in place, that courts had in place, to sort of manage the process, ensure things like hold back evidence didn't get out or that um you know juries weren't tainted. And now it sort of seems like law enforcement doesn't know what to do.
01:04:20
Speaker
how to how to either take advantage or stop the wave of this stuff. Judges are increasingly using um gag orders to keep people, including family members, I think of like the Delphi murders of um Abby Williams and Libby Jermaine, where their family you know has to ask for permission to go to a conference to speak. And and and I just think Are there, are there, are there, you know, so what essentially happens, right? Like in your case with Maura, you guys are the expert on her life. You guys are the only ones who were paying attention to her whole life before it became public. But all of a sudden this whole ecosystem or in the Delphi case, the families or other people, everyone who really knows the victim has every incentive to not engage or gets crowded out. Is there a better way? Do you think that the,
01:05:16
Speaker
criminal justice system and the media can handle these kinds of things. Well, i you bring up an interesting point. So when we talk traditional media, we're talking about outlets that have resources, so a legal team ah to have dissenting opinions, um an editorial team, a producer. So you've got all of these resources. But when you look at independent creators, you've got a single person who acts as the producer, the editor, the fact checker.
01:05:53
Speaker
the graphic designer and there's not a whole lot of room for competing narratives or um discussions about what the information actually means um and i don't really know what the answer to that is other than for people to infuse their content with empathy like we talked about and um consider the harm that posting something or pointing out a story may have on both the case and the families. But it's I've definitely seen the difference between those two, not to say that all traditional media media uses all of the resources that they have at their disposal. um But there is something to be said for these
01:06:43
Speaker
these Lower or not super high profile cases and even though I consider my sister's case pretty high profile um in the grand scheme of things it's really not so what happens is you have a singular loud voice and that voice becomes the expert on everything Mara Murray and in fact That's that's not the best approach because most of the time that person who becomes the loudest voice doesn't know all the facts or doesn't know the person themselves and so then they
01:07:25
Speaker
become known as the case expert and people take whatever they say is fact when sometimes it's not. Yeah. And I mean, i I think a great example that's playing out like that is the Long Island serial killer case where there is an attorney for one of the victim's families um or was an attorney for one of the victim's family who has become the voice for all the other victim's families sort of without their consent. And um one of the interesting things that I was reminding a friend recently of is like loudest voice does not correlate to most effective.
01:08:02
Speaker
just because somewhere and sometimes when they're the loudest voice, that's the tip off because that's the way they cover up not being um not being not being effective. Not to say that that is actually what's happening in the Long Island case, but I was just making that caution like loud and sounding like an expert can sometimes, um it can it can actually mean the opposite um of what you're quite your i guess what you're what you're thinking of and what you're um expecting. So on some levels, I guess what we're also asking people, whether you're in the media or your judges or law enforcement, is to just use some compassion and critical thinking.
01:08:46
Speaker
Right. Consumers too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And consumers drive the industry. So if the downloads aren't coming or the clicks aren't there, these these people are not going to have the motivation to continue on in the way in which they're being sensational or salacious in their coverage of these real life tragedies. um And I can say from my own experience that when you do have a singular loud voice who claims to be the expert, the only defense is the victim themselves or the loved ones. And so in my sister's case, she's voiceless. She's missing. She can't correct the record. She can't defend herself. She can't do any of that. so That burden falls on my family.
Narrative Control and Media Disparities
01:09:40
Speaker
and so A lot of times, I find myself spending my energy on trying to correct some of this misinformation and sensationalized coverage. and It's detracting from me spending time on the actual investigation.
01:09:59
Speaker
Because here's the deal my sister's still missing and if I'm battling people online who and my dad says this all the time he says well who's that's great Joel that all these people are arguing online but who's looking for Mara and that's was a really poignant reminder for me to really look at how I'm spending my time. I was going to ask you one question, the flip side of it. So for those victims, ah families who feel like they're not getting attention for their their cases, you know, you made me think of it when you mentioned the downloads and clicks, because I had creators um on recently as guests who do cover cases like missing and murdered indigenous women and other things like that. And we were talking about
01:10:49
Speaker
In our conversation, we were talking about our shared experience that when we do cover cases like that, our downloads plummet. We're lucky in the sense that we don't care. For us, we're like someone needs to do these cases and do them well because it's going to let we'll create a good foundation for other people to do the cases. But I know for a lot of people, you know, they do they do. So if I am that family of that missing murdered indigenous woman or that black kid in the middle of Southeast D.C. who goes missing or whoever it is that's not getting attention, are there any thoughts or ideas that you you have for for those families?
01:11:33
Speaker
Yeah, I would say you do have some control and you you do have the ability to say no. And a lot of times what happens is a loved one's case isn't covered. It's not um on all the podcasts. There's no billboard. There's no flyer. There's nothing. And somebody reaches out. To the family and says hey i'm interested in covering the the story and we're almost.
01:12:06
Speaker
The reaction is almost automatically yes, please. Thank you so much without having an introduction call and getting to the point of what is going to be covered. How is it going to be covered? What is the point? What are you basing your research on? Um, and so that's a major problem with this spread of misinformation. If families like that are, are, Not able to distinguish between what's gonna further the case and what's not they're gonna say yes, and then they're gonna spend Quadruple the amount of time undoing
01:12:46
Speaker
what was covered in the the particular content that was created. and kind of like You're better off with yeah less information out there. than Yeah. and so i I've connected with many families who are who ask me all the time, how do you how does Mara get so much coverage? A couple reasons. i mean The fact of the matter is she was an attractive white woman, college age, that went missing, and there's no way around it. That's part of the reason why Mara's in the news. But the other part of that is because my family's been relentless in keeping her in the news, and we do things like write our own press releases and tee up stories for
01:13:33
Speaker
both local and national media to latch onto. So there's certain things that you can do as a family member to sort of um push the information out and get the right type of coverage and get your quotes correct by doing a press release. And I've shared my template with many people, um many family members, and I've shared different techniques. And you know my family does a number of different things throughout the year that Really are just aimed at keeping mars name in the public consciousness for instance her birthday we do a workout is that newsworthy no that's not newsworthy but,
01:14:14
Speaker
I do a press release for it, and some people some people pick it up, and bam, Mars in the news again. and People get annoyed. you know They say, Mara Murray's case is covered so much. Well, yeah, what do you expect? I'm sitting here without my sister. I'm going to do everything in my power to keep her in the news. yeah No, I mean, in her memory, right? Like that, right it's that second death that people have the first one, you know, you die. the The line is that and your second one is when you're forgotten. And I think it's even more complicated when a person's missing, because they haven't, you know, we don't officially know that they're alive or they're dead, but their memory can still get lost. And martin yeah, and that makes it play so I am
01:15:03
Speaker
I was talking to some friends who were creators and one of them was like, we should create a true crime Avengers, sort of. And I was like, well, what do you mean? And they were like to hold all the other creators accountable. And I was like, actually, that's a really good idea because we don't really have anything that holds us ah accountable. And it almost sounds like you should join us not from the creator perspective, but from the victim's perspective. ah opportunity to i would I would love it. i would I would dress up in the costume and everything. Same here. Same here. Wow, look at that. So I was ask you um just sort of like stepping back from it. um
01:15:46
Speaker
What are, like, when you step back and you think about it and you think about your sister's case and you think about all of the other victims' families, are there sort of, like, any hopes or dreams? Like, if you could imagine, you know, a world that they sort of deserve, what would what would you hope and dream for people? Huh. That's a good question. Well, I mean, for for me personally, I really just want an answer. i I'm still at the stage where we don't know why she went to New Hampshire. We don't know
01:16:25
Speaker
really anything. We don't know a whole lot more than we knew the night that we got the call that she was missing. And so I would like just one answer, and that would fuel me to continue on to get the next answer, okay? And then maybe we'll find her, and then you know then we could get justice. And so that's kind of the motivating factor for me um but i do talk about hope a lot and that's something that is not talked about enough and how.
01:17:00
Speaker
that's all that family members of long-term missing and murdered cases have. That's what motivates us. it It fuels us. Um, but it also torments us because you know, there's some days where you just resign yourself to the fact that you may never know and you have to come to terms with that and you have to allow yourself to be okay with that. You might never know, but you're still going to have, You're still going to try. You're not going to give up. and Sometimes you so you can see family members just move on and and lose that hope. and It's heartbreaking to see and hear. and so Something I tell family members is no matter what, you cannot lose hope.
01:17:49
Speaker
And there's always a chance that maybe we don't find out who did it or maybe we never find out where she is but we we might find one answer and that's what motivates families like mine is that hope that. one day I'll get a call and i'll I'll know one aspect of the mystery because in my sister's case there's multiple layers of mystery within the mystery. um So that that's something that I
01:18:23
Speaker
I wish people talked about more, is this whole hope concept and how it's very... um It's complicated. It's complicated, it's dynamic, it's... Because the thing about hope is like we need it to move forward. like we need it you know, to get up in the morning to go through life's trials. But at the same time, hope is a very difficult thing to carry because it's the recognition of the absence of something. Right. And it can, ah you know, I think thinking back in my life that if I could have learned anything when I was young about hope,
01:19:05
Speaker
is that while it's it's wonderful and it's and important and it's what keeps you going on, it's also fragile and heavy. Be careful. yeah Anyway, I wanted to thank you for coming on. See if you have any closing thoughts or anything extra you would want to add or for people to take away. um So I'll go ahead and turn it over to you. Yeah, well, thank you so much. I'm so glad that we jumped on this call and talked about these very important topics and topics that I really enjoy talking about. You know, a lot of times when I do interviews, people want to go through the timeline and the timeline's been covered.
01:19:48
Speaker
the timeline of my sister's case has been covered and People lose sight of the fact that there's a whole family in the background suffering with these um Really heavy topics like grief and hope and the unknowing in the ambiguity and I think the more we talk about it the more other families are gonna feel comforted and not alone because it's easy to feel isolated and alone in these situations. But there are so many other families that are struggling and if you're out there and you you're struggling, I just tell you to reach out to somebody else who gets it. and um The connection is instantaneous and it's done wonders for me to talk to other families of the missing and murdered
01:20:40
Speaker
um and It's given me an increased level of hope. and um there There are support systems and advocates out there that you can trust. and um yeah This has just been great. Oh, good. One thing I just want to add before we stop is so much... I don't know if i don't even know if you see it, but so much of what you said um about hope and support and um what you need in difficult times, it certainly applies to people
01:21:16
Speaker
whose family members are missing or murdered, but it applies actually to all of us, I think. right like Those are the key things that we as humans need to to keep going, so I appreciate it. If you'd like to join us for more discussions with me and other listeners, we can be found on most social media platforms, including a listener driven Facebook group called the Silver Linings Fireside Chat. For deeper conversations with our guests and live conversations with other listeners, you can also join us at Patreon at www.patreon dot.com forward slash the Silver Lining Handbook.
01:21:54
Speaker
For those of you who are on Patreon, check out our bonus episode with Julie, where we explore a situation where we were both deceived by somebody. we