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131. Put Down the Cool, Pick Up Kindness: The Power of Likability Over Status
2 Plays3 months ago
In this episode of the Especially for Athletes Podcast, Shad and Dustin dive into the important concept of likability vs. status popularity, discussing how the principles of kindness and genuine relationships can have a lasting positive impact. The conversation is sparked by the wisdom shared by Kyle Collinsworth, former BYU basketball star, who advises high school students to “put down cool and pick up kindness.”
They explore an article by child psychologist Mitch Prinstein, who explains the two types of popularity: likability, where people make others feel good, and status, which focuses on outward appearances and social power. The latter may provide short-term recognition, but as Prinstein points out, it often leads to loneliness, stress, and dissatisfaction in the long run. On the other hand, likability brings lasting benefits: stronger relationships, career success, and even improved well-being.
Drawing from sports and their own experiences, Shad and Dustin emphasize how athletes have a unique opportunity to leverage their status to bless others, rather than impress them. They stress that being a likable athlete—one who lifts others up and values relationships—creates a ripple effect that lasts long after the game ends.
Join us for a conversation about the importance of kindness, authentic connections, and why building likability is far more important than chasing status. Eyes up, do the work, and remember: kindness has the power to shape your future.
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Credits:
Hosted by Shad Martin & Dustin Smith
Produced by IMAGINATE STUDIO
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Transcript
Introduction to Empowering Athletes
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the especially for athletes podcast where we explore essential principles that empower athletes to learn life's most valuable lessons through sports.
Kindness Over Coolness: Advice for Youth
00:00:15
Speaker
So just to all the youth watching this in high school, stop trying to be cool.
00:00:20
Speaker
Cool gets you nowhere.
00:00:21
Speaker
You'll look back in 10 years, if you've gone on trying to be cool, you'll look back and be like, man, I really put myself in a bad spot.
00:00:29
Speaker
So put down cool, bury it, put in a nice little ditch, bury it, get rid of it, and just lead with kindness.
00:00:36
Speaker
That's what the world needs.
00:00:37
Speaker
And just lift other people up and be you.
00:00:40
Speaker
Own it.
00:00:41
Speaker
So just lead with kindness and forget the cool.
00:00:44
Speaker
Dustin, that was Kyle Collinsworth, former BYU great and Mr. Triple Double still holds the NCAA record for triple doubles.
00:00:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:00:55
Speaker
Played in the NBA for a long time.
00:00:57
Speaker
But this concept of
00:00:59
Speaker
in light of seeking to bless and not impress, that was his response to a question about that.
00:01:06
Speaker
Put down the cool and pick up kindness.
The Psychology of Popularity: Insights from Mitch Prinstein
00:01:10
Speaker
And as I was reviewing that podcast he recorded with us a little while ago,
00:01:16
Speaker
I came across this article that was super interesting to me.
00:01:21
Speaker
And this guy wrote this article.
00:01:23
Speaker
His name is Mitch Prinstein, and he is a child psychologist.
00:01:28
Speaker
And he wrote this, Dear Teenager...
00:01:32
Speaker
Hey, I'm a child psychologist who studies popularity.
00:01:35
Speaker
For about 20 years now, I and so many other psychologists like me have researched why some kids are more popular than others and how popularity affects our lives when we grow up.
00:01:49
Speaker
Popularity is not what you think it is.
00:01:53
Speaker
Remember back in elementary school when kids ran around the playground and went to each other's houses to play?
00:02:00
Speaker
Some kids were everyone's favorites, and others had a hard time finding playmates.
00:02:06
Speaker
It may have seemed like popularity was an important thing even when you were as a young child, as young as three years old.
00:02:13
Speaker
That's true.
00:02:14
Speaker
There is one kind of popularity that even very young kids are tuned into.
00:02:20
Speaker
But that's not the same kind of popularity that everyone talks about in high school.
00:02:25
Speaker
Childhood popularity is referred to as likability.
00:02:29
Speaker
The kids who make others feel good and included and valued are the ones who are the most likable, and being likable leads to all kinds of benefits in life.
00:02:42
Speaker
It affects your relationships, friendships, your dating life, what kind of job you get, and how happy you are as an adult, and even how long you will live.
00:02:54
Speaker
But when you reach high school, everyone begins talking about who is most popular or cool or who seems to have the most followers on Instagram or whatever.
Consequences of Status Popularity
00:03:06
Speaker
This is referred to as status popularity.
00:03:11
Speaker
And it's not the same as likability at all.
00:03:14
Speaker
In fact, in most high schools, the kids that are most popular, that is having the highest status, actually aren't even very well liked.
00:03:24
Speaker
Among girls especially, the high status crowd is disliked by many of their peers.
00:03:31
Speaker
The reason why status is a big deal starting when kids are around age 11 or 12 has something to do with how your body starts to change in middle school.
00:03:41
Speaker
Scientific studies are now revealing that part of maturing affects how your brain responds to people around you.
00:03:49
Speaker
And right now, it is kind of supercharged to care about your social relationships.
00:03:55
Speaker
Specifically, adolescent brains start to become really tuned in to who is getting the most attention, who seems to be the most powerful, influential, and who everyone else wants to look at the most.
00:04:10
Speaker
That's fine, but it's important to understand that the kind of popularity that teens care about, the status kind, can actually be bad for you.
00:04:21
Speaker
You know how some of the high-status kids are mean to others by being bullies or gossips or making other people feel bad about themselves?
00:04:32
Speaker
That kind of behavior comes back to haunt them later.
00:04:35
Speaker
Research studies have been done to see what happens to the coolest kids in high school once they grow up and the findings are not pretty.
00:04:45
Speaker
They are at much greater risk for being lonely, getting fired, having their boyfriends and girlfriends break up with them, and suffering from addictions.
00:04:55
Speaker
So, and this is his point that goes along with our sport light.
00:04:59
Speaker
If you are one of those high status kids, make sure you are likable too.
The Importance of Sustainable Likability
00:05:06
Speaker
Be kind to others and spend as much time having really honest relationships with others as you do in maintaining your status and reputation.
00:05:18
Speaker
I thought that was super interesting.
00:05:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:24
Speaker
likeability popularity is sustainable.
00:05:27
Speaker
And those are kids who make others feel good, included and valued, which made me as you know, think of exact we go around and we actually teach don't just include kids, you make those around you feel valued.
00:05:42
Speaker
So I just unpack this for a few minutes here.
00:05:44
Speaker
I thought even reading that article was good enough for a podcast here.
00:05:49
Speaker
But
00:05:49
Speaker
I wanted to unpack it with your thoughts.
00:05:51
Speaker
You had Kyle Collinsworth saying, put down cool, pick up kindness.
00:05:56
Speaker
And then this child psychologist saying there's two kinds of popularity.
00:06:01
Speaker
There's likability popularity and there's status popularity.
00:06:04
Speaker
Status popularity, if that's what you're after, you might get it in high school, but it'll lead to bad things later.
00:06:10
Speaker
Likeability popularity is sustaining and leads to all these wonderful outcomes in life.
00:06:17
Speaker
Super interesting concept.
00:06:19
Speaker
What are you thinking about it?
00:06:20
Speaker
I thought it was interesting how I think we come back.
00:06:25
Speaker
The cycle is when you're young, it's really young.
00:06:31
Speaker
It's just who you like being around, right?
00:06:33
Speaker
You talked about that.
00:06:34
Speaker
Elementary school, you don't really care what somebody, how they dress or what they look like or how big a house is or how fancy a car that their dad drives or whatever, right?
00:06:44
Speaker
It's just your friend.
00:06:46
Speaker
And then you get into that adolescent stage where you get 11, 12 years old and all of them probably through junior high and then into high school where all the who looks the best, who has the most money, who's the coolest, who's the prettiest, right?
00:07:00
Speaker
Whatever.
00:07:01
Speaker
Even athletics.
00:07:03
Speaker
Athletics, exactly.
00:07:04
Speaker
And its status and its symbols and names and recognition, all these things make you popular, which you talked about.
00:07:12
Speaker
But then you kind of work back out of that.
00:07:14
Speaker
And as you get older in life, I think you kind of go back to, well, I want to be around people I like being around.
00:07:19
Speaker
I don't care how much, what you look like or how much you make or what you drive or are you likable?
00:07:25
Speaker
Like I could care less.
00:07:26
Speaker
And then, and that's the regret that we, I think, feel later in life about,
00:07:31
Speaker
Gosh, man, I probably wouldn't have hung out maybe with this person 30 years ago when I was in high school.
00:07:38
Speaker
Look what I missed out on because I was so, because they weren't, they didn't have the status popularity, right?
00:07:45
Speaker
And I could have been friends with this person, but I was so caught up in all that other stuff that you just get in this, you know, just this world.
00:07:52
Speaker
turbulent wave of who I'm supposed to like and be with and not be with and how many followers do I have and who's at the party that I'm not at and all of this stuff that you waste so much time.
00:08:04
Speaker
And then we get older and we think, and that's what we're trying to tell kids, look, be friends with lots of people.
The Role of Schools in Promoting Inclusivity
00:08:10
Speaker
You're going to learn so much from so many people and stop worrying so much about
00:08:15
Speaker
the status part of it, right?
00:08:17
Speaker
It's easy to say, it's harder to do.
00:08:19
Speaker
We preach it as much as we can to kids.
00:08:21
Speaker
And I think a lot of the kids we work with are doing it.
00:08:24
Speaker
I know they are, which is awesome.
00:08:27
Speaker
And the schools who let us run our program the way that it's meant to be run, that's why they keep coming back and will say that it has such an impact at their school is because these kids have this, it's like this door opens to this other part of life that, well, wait a minute.
00:08:43
Speaker
I can be friends with somebody that's not status cool.
00:08:46
Speaker
They could there.
00:08:48
Speaker
And it's cool.
00:08:49
Speaker
And I enjoy being with them and that's okay.
00:08:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's okay.
00:08:52
Speaker
It's encouraged.
00:08:53
Speaker
That's what we want you to do.
00:08:54
Speaker
It's it's those relationships are what life's about, you know?
00:08:58
Speaker
And so I love it.
00:08:59
Speaker
It's putting down the cool.
00:09:02
Speaker
It's, it's hard to get kids to do it, but I think if you were, if we were even to ask, it actually should be something we should do a survey on chef.
00:09:09
Speaker
We could ask thousands of these kids.
00:09:12
Speaker
Um,
00:09:13
Speaker
you know, who to think about the two, right?
00:09:16
Speaker
The people you like being with, are they necessarily the most popular at your school?
00:09:21
Speaker
And is the person that would be considered the most popular, really the most likable?
00:09:25
Speaker
And are they the happiest, right?
00:09:27
Speaker
Like most of the people who are the most popular, look at it in Hollywood.
00:09:32
Speaker
You know, you see it all the time in famous people who have everything apparently except happiness.
00:09:38
Speaker
They don't have that.
00:09:40
Speaker
And real friends.
00:09:41
Speaker
Yep.
00:09:42
Speaker
And I look at this, I think that there is a certain fraction of high school kids.
00:09:49
Speaker
I don't want to paint everyone who's popular
Using Status for Positive Impact
00:09:51
Speaker
with one of these brushes.
00:09:52
Speaker
And I'm sure all of us are one of them at different times, right?
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:56
Speaker
Nobody's perfect.
00:09:57
Speaker
That's part of growing up.
00:09:59
Speaker
But I think there are some kids that are popular in high school, especially I've seen among girls, which this study points out.
00:10:07
Speaker
that everyone is nice to them and everything like that because they're afraid of them turning their viciousness on them.
00:10:17
Speaker
Now, as soon as that high school experience is over and that person loses the power they once had to impact in a school setting all of these kids, I think that's why it leads to loneliness.
00:10:32
Speaker
It's also not anything to do with them.
00:10:35
Speaker
We call that the sport light turns off.
00:10:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:38
Speaker
No one cares anymore.
00:10:40
Speaker
But could you imagine combining the two of these?
00:10:43
Speaker
That's what I was thinking as I read this.
00:10:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:46
Speaker
Status popularity is going to come to athletes.
00:10:50
Speaker
And that's not a bad thing.
00:10:51
Speaker
What we're trying to teach athletes to do is to seek to...
00:10:55
Speaker
bless people with that status instead of impress people with that status.
00:11:01
Speaker
I think if you're seeking to bless people, you're trying to help people feel, as this says, good, included, valued, and you have the status, that sport light that we talk about.
00:11:16
Speaker
You're not interested in everyone being impressed with you.
00:11:20
Speaker
You're trying to help others feel good and included and valued.
00:11:24
Speaker
You're both going to have the status popularity, which we aren't like encouraging popularity.
00:11:29
Speaker
It's just a reality and likability.
00:11:33
Speaker
If you combine those two, you have a powerful impact on people's lives.
00:11:38
Speaker
And that's why we try to teach what we teach is our athletes sometimes,
00:11:43
Speaker
It's just because they love playing a sport and they're good at it.
00:11:47
Speaker
They are gifted status popularity.
00:11:50
Speaker
Now, what are you going to do with it?
00:11:52
Speaker
Because if you do the gossiping, backbiting, bullying, intimidating with that, if you use your strength and popularity to push down instead of to lift up, people are going to resent you the rest of your life.
00:12:07
Speaker
But if you use it to help others feel good and included and valued and respected and seen, like we teach in our presentations, you could literally change people's life in high school, but they will remember you as someone who is kind and loving, and they will remember you the rest of your life for that.
00:12:31
Speaker
And as this says, you
00:12:34
Speaker
It will help you in your friendships, your dating life, the kind of job you get, how happy you are as an adult, and even how long you live.
00:12:43
Speaker
So we're just out trying to extend people's lives.
00:12:49
Speaker
Any closing thoughts on this?
00:12:50
Speaker
I think it's so cool.
00:12:52
Speaker
Just that status versus like ability, but any closing thoughts?
00:12:56
Speaker
My, my last point, Chad would be, you know, I, I assume it's mostly parents who listen to this.
00:13:03
Speaker
If there's kids, that's even better, but to the parents, that's exactly what we are trying to do.
00:13:09
Speaker
We're trying as hard as we can to help your child and
00:13:15
Speaker
The phrase I use a little bit lately is that this sport light can burn you.
00:13:20
Speaker
It can get so bright that it literally burns people.
00:13:24
Speaker
It burns these kids.
00:13:25
Speaker
They can't handle it.
00:13:28
Speaker
And it ruins them.
00:13:29
Speaker
We're trying to help your son and your daughter understand that while they have this light on them,
00:13:35
Speaker
if they get too close to it and too caught up in it and too in love with it, too much about them, it'll burn them.
00:13:42
Speaker
And it'll burn them and it'll leave a scar that is visible for the rest of their life.
00:13:46
Speaker
Because
Guidance for Parents: Encouraging Positive Popularity
00:13:47
Speaker
people like you just said perfectly will remember them for how they were when that light was on them.
00:13:53
Speaker
And in many cases, they don't give them a second chance
00:13:57
Speaker
to say, well, you're different in your 30s and your 40s and your 50s than you were in your teens.
00:14:02
Speaker
We all are, but we still remember what we remember and impressions are what they are and roots were set when you were a jerk and I can't trust you, right?
00:14:13
Speaker
No matter what, if you're different.
00:14:15
Speaker
So that's a real thing.
00:14:17
Speaker
And what we're trying to tell parents, Chad, is that that has been exaggerated a hundred times now by cell phones, cameras on every phone and social media.
00:14:27
Speaker
And so what we think we understand is,
00:14:31
Speaker
We don't get it as parents right now.
00:14:32
Speaker
We have no idea what it's like to be an athlete with status in 2025.
00:14:38
Speaker
It's completely different than it was in 1995 or 1985.
00:14:42
Speaker
We don't get it.
00:14:43
Speaker
We understand a small piece of what it's like and the good that can come from it and the bad that can come from it.
00:14:50
Speaker
We're trying to say, look, yes, we talk about good, good, do good, do good.
00:14:55
Speaker
Seek to bless, not impress.
00:14:56
Speaker
It's all about helping others.
00:14:58
Speaker
But a major part of what we're trying to do for your son and daughter is to help them not fry themselves while they're under this light and carry around a scar with them for the rest of their lives that people are never going to let them
00:15:11
Speaker
you know, come out from or forgive them for in some cases.
00:15:16
Speaker
So that's the essence of what eyes up do the work is being aware of others, but also yourself eyes up and doing the work to help others, but also to help yourself to have a more, a better experience and to be spit out into the world, a better person that produces good in the world.
00:15:34
Speaker
Doesn't take and take and take.
00:15:36
Speaker
Cause like you said, when that light, when it's over,
00:15:40
Speaker
People want to be with people that are likable.
00:15:42
Speaker
They don't care how many touchdowns you scored when you're 40, right?
00:15:46
Speaker
Who cares now?
00:15:47
Speaker
So, yeah, that's in both what Collinsworth said there and what you read or, you know, put down the cool and parents, we need to talk to our kids about it.
00:15:59
Speaker
And what does that mean?
00:15:59
Speaker
It's a great phrase.
00:16:01
Speaker
But again, we talked about this on a previous podcast.
00:16:04
Speaker
In real life action, what is that?
00:16:07
Speaker
Like, what does that mean?
00:16:09
Speaker
And that's not, by the way, that's not the job of the coach.
00:16:13
Speaker
Parents, it's your job.
00:16:15
Speaker
Your coach is not, that's, don't say that that's the job of your coach to teach your kids to do those things.
00:16:20
Speaker
That's your job as the parent.
00:16:21
Speaker
Don't pawn it off to the coach.
00:16:24
Speaker
We need to teach our kids to be that way.
00:16:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:27
Speaker
To close, maybe Ryan White, who we both, we love her thinking Olympic swimmer.
00:16:34
Speaker
She had that, she took us to her mirror and had that saying on her mirror that I thought of as I read this.
00:16:40
Speaker
People may not remember what you say and do, but they will always remember the way you made them feel.
00:16:48
Speaker
That's hard to get over if you've made someone feel alienated or stupid or put down.
00:16:54
Speaker
But if you made someone feel lifted, noticed, valued and seen, they will remember you fondly for the rest of your life.
00:17:02
Speaker
When you run into them and target in 30 years, they'll look at you and say, I'm so happy I ran into you.
00:17:10
Speaker
I love this man status.
00:17:12
Speaker
You're given status popularity as an athlete.
00:17:16
Speaker
you need to be likable.
00:17:19
Speaker
And that comes from focusing on other people and helping them feel good about themselves.
00:17:24
Speaker
And so I just thought it was really cool that what we're trying to do, the literal crux of our message has this psychological underpinning
00:17:34
Speaker
that will lead to these kids getting better jobs, being happier as an adult, better friendships, better dating life, even living longer.
00:17:43
Speaker
I thought, man, if we could just flip that switch in a kid's brain, they don't know all that that will do for them.
00:17:49
Speaker
But hey, we're going to continue trying.
00:17:52
Speaker
And these parents and coaches are too.
00:17:53
Speaker
And so, well, right on, man.
00:17:57
Speaker
I love it.
00:17:58
Speaker
Good job.
00:17:58
Speaker
Eyes up, do the work.
00:18:00
Speaker
Thank you for joining the Especially for Athletes podcast.
00:18:03
Speaker
To learn more about Especially for Athletes organization, get a copy of our book, The Sportlight, or to bring our program to your team, school, business, or organization, visit us at especiallyforathletes.org.