Transcript
Speaker: Hey everyone, welcome to the ABM Voice Podcast.
Speaker: I'm your host, Arun Gopalaswamy.
Speaker: I'm delighted to welcome Tanya Saiz to the show.
Speaker: Tanya is a marketing consultant and specializes on areas of demand generation, GDM strategy, quantum strategy, and of course, ABM.
Speaker: I'm here to spend some time and understand what her take is on ABM and
Speaker: and general and other aspects of how you go ahead implementing and executing ABM.
Speaker: Tanya, welcome to the show.
Speaker: Thank you so much for taking time and then talking to me this morning.
Speaker: Yeah, so thank you, Arun.
Speaker: It's a pleasure to be with you today.
Speaker: How are you today?
Speaker: Yes, I'm doing good.
Speaker: Very good.
Speaker: What about you?
Speaker: Very good, thank you so much.
Speaker: Daniel, let's just get started with understanding your career, your journey so far.
Speaker: If you could just give us what have you been doing, what is the current role and things like that.
Speaker: I think it'll set up the context.
Speaker: Yeah, so I've been working in growth marketing for 10 years now, six of them in B2B marketing.
Speaker: And I've seen that there's been a dramatic paradigm change in the last years.
Speaker: We are moving from a model where we were leaning into
Speaker: getting as many leads as possible into a more revenue oriented method.
Speaker: So that's why today and during the last four years, I've really been focusing on revenue oriented methodologies.
Speaker: So my main focus today is ABM.
Speaker: But to do ABM properly, sometimes I have to do revenue operations and demand generation.
Speaker: And of course,
Speaker: GTM.
Speaker: So that's my main focus today.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you based out of Barcelona and sort of work with customers in Europe and also the US, right?
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: So I'm based in Spain, in the north of Spain, in Pamplona.
Speaker: And most of my clients, they are either based in Europe, mostly France and then the US.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I see, got it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay, let's just jump into ABM.
Speaker: I guess that's your specialization today on an interest area, I guess, right?
Speaker: So, you talk about a mind shift sort of change that's required and some kind of a strategic work that needs to go in before anybody starts considering and obviously implementing ABM.
Speaker: So, can you expand on that and what are your thoughts around the preparation part of somebody implementing ABM?
Speaker: Yeah, sure.
Speaker: So I think that we need like two things.
Speaker: First of all, as you pointed out, Arun, we need like a specific mindset, first of all.
Speaker: And then secondly, we also need like some strategic work.
Speaker: So when it comes to the mindset,
Speaker: We need, first of all, a long-term focus.
Speaker: We cannot be impatient when we are doing ABM.
Speaker: We can be impatient with our actions, the actions that we put in place, but not with the results.
Speaker: Because we are talking about an approach or a motion that it will take at least like eight months or even one year to see opportunities unfolding.
Speaker: So
Speaker: We also need a more kind of holistic or more strategic and cross-functional view of most people involved in this project.
Speaker: So that means that we cannot work in silos.
Speaker: We need to have like a shared goal around revenue.
Speaker: So I think that in terms of mindset,
Speaker: Those are like the two key like kind of values.
Speaker: And then when we are talking about like the strategic work, the thing is that here we need, we are doing a kind of laser cut approach.
Speaker: So we need really to make down our ICP, our buying committee, our buyer journey.
Speaker: We need to have some data hygiene.
Speaker: So I like to say that when we are doing these different content driven strategies, whether it is ABM or inbound marketing or any other, the concept is the same.
Speaker: We're talking about targeting the right person with the right message at the right time in the places where they hang out.
Speaker: The thing is that here,
Speaker: As I said before, we have to adapt a last laser cut approach.
Speaker: So that means that we need to understand our audience.
Speaker: So for that, we need to really nail down the buying committee, the ICP, select also the key accounts.
Speaker: Then we have to, to, to understand, or we have to, to have like the right message.
Speaker: So then we have to understand and to nail down also the pain points of each member of the buying committee, and then
Speaker: To know the right time, we need to have the right data hygiene.
Speaker: We need to map also the budget journey.
Speaker: So that's why I like to say that ABM is the most complex, is also the most strategic type of GTM.
Speaker: But at the same time, it is the one that will allow us to get best results.
Speaker: Got it.
Speaker: So you mentioned that programs can start yielding results in months.
Speaker: It could be three months, six months, nine months, whatever, right?
Speaker: And if that is the time that takes, which is very different from how a traditional GTM was yielding, let's say, results, right?
Speaker: So how do you go and then get a buy-in from the executives and then say,
Speaker: and you need to be patient, you need to provide the resources and I will ultimately start delivering the cells, but you need to just allow me time.
Speaker: How do you go and then convey and what has been your experience and then getting into that?
Speaker: Yeah, so that's actually a good question, Arun, because I'm very often asked this question when doing ABM.
Speaker: And the thing is that there's no one size fits all type of solution.
Speaker: I would say that here we are selling an idea and we are selling change.
Speaker: So we need to try to put as much data and as many facts as possible into that.
Speaker: For example, let's say that we want to sell an ABM program.
Speaker: So we need to say, okay, one way to sell it can be to say, okay, we are leaning too much into paid campaigns,
Speaker: lead-gen campaigns, we are just having 3% of the leads that are interested in our market.
Speaker: And then we say, okay, so our market size is very small, it's just 50.
Speaker: So there's no point in doing all those efforts for something that is super specific.
Speaker: And then let's try something different.
Speaker: We can put a lot of numbers, we can put a lot of facts, a lot of data so that we can kind of convince the people in front of us
Speaker: However, it's true that it's super tricky.
Speaker: It takes time also to convince the people.
Speaker: And concerning the approaches, I think that there are two.
Speaker: So basically we have a top-down approach or a bottom-up approach.
Speaker: I've mostly been focusing on the top-down approach.
Speaker: So basically as a consultant, because my role was more to, I mean, to work with the directors or with the key designers.
Speaker: because it was them that were reaching out to me.
Speaker: But I know that sometimes the other way around, like bottom up, it can work.
Speaker: So in some situations where we have a solid marketing team, and then we have some good sales reps that really understand ABM principles, that can work also.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So, let's say you get identified and then one director approaches and ask you to put together a program and also help the execution of it, right?
Speaker: So, what are the things that you're doing?
Speaker: And typically, how long does it take for you to actually, let's say, launch the first campaign?
Speaker: I know it's very contextual, client-specific and things like that.
Speaker: So if you take a reference customer, what are the different things that you're doing?
Speaker: We talked about buy-ins, for example.
Speaker: Maybe the director has to go and then talk to the VP and then say, I'm launching this program.
Speaker: In some cases, maybe it has been already done and hence they are approaching you.
Speaker: So there are different scenarios, but just taking a base scenario, let's say you get involved,
Speaker: where there's absolutely nothing and there are some programs that are running, which is, let's say, some kind of a lead gen program, and you build a case around saying that why they have to shift to an ABM because it's more focused, personalized, and long-term rewarding, right?
Speaker: Now, doing all of this, what are the other things that you're doing to kickstart the program itself?
Speaker: Yeah, so to jumpstart an ABM program,
Speaker: Apart from, as you said, as you pointed out, I wouldn't like all the strategic work that usually it takes, it can, we can make it in one month.
Speaker: Sometimes it can take like six months, but if we focus on the execution that goes next, the way to execute it, it depends.
Speaker: We can, it will depend as you said of the context.
Speaker: It is not the same thing to do it like a NASDAQ or a big company with a lot of headcounts, a lot of employees.
Speaker: that is small one, but if we do that, like at a small startups, we can do something like quite, quite agile in an agile manner in some weeks.
Speaker: Because for example, we can just like run a multi-channel and multi-touch ABM campaign, just focus on maybe three channels that can be direct, for example, the LinkedIn,
Speaker: Then we can do email campaign and then direct mail.
Speaker: And we can do all that in one month.
Speaker: So for example, in one of the startups I work with, we did these three, or we addressed these three channels.
Speaker: And then the really good part of it, or the thing that made the difference
Speaker: was the direct mail part.
Speaker: So here we, we introduced, for example, a personalized gift.
Speaker: I'm not talking about a Starbucks, like random gift or, or, or for example, a champagne bottle, but more a super personalized gift that we can bring.
Speaker: And then that will, that usually makes it works wonders.
Speaker: So the thing is that we can do something that is small, not scalable, but small, and we can test it quite rapidly in one month, for example.
Speaker: Sure, okay.
Speaker: Okay, you talk about running ABM programs with small budgets, and I think people like Mason, et cetera, talk about concepts of scrappy ABM.
Speaker: We are trying to come up with something called a lean ABM, right?
Speaker: So, different types of ABM in the sense how the execution happens, right?
Speaker: All boils down to how do you do it with minimum budget, right?
Speaker: So, what are the different ideas or different experiences you had
Speaker: that marketers can actually observe and then start implementing AVM.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: In small budgets.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So basically with the small budgets, I think that when doing AVM, we usually focus too much on the tech stack part.
Speaker: So I think that if we focus first of all on the people, so if we select one sales rep,
Speaker: And that sales rep, we have to make sure that it's the correct one.
Speaker: It is a good indicator that he has almost reached his quota or her quota.
Speaker: Like that, they are not under so much pressure.
Speaker: Then he has to, or she has to be quite good at technology.
Speaker: She has to enjoy that.
Speaker: And then he needs to have this kind of buyer-centric approach or kind of enjoy social selling.
Speaker: So if we have that human side or that team part, that's a very good, a very good starting point.
Speaker: Then, uh, considering technology, I think that before committing to more technology or more tools, I think that the first thing is to do a technology audit and to say, okay, so what is that we have?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So sometimes, I mean, we need a CRM.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: We need also maybe some kind of personalization tools.
Speaker: Sometimes the CRM, they already provide that.
Speaker: Then we need to understand also if we have some intent data capabilities.
Speaker: And if we don't have that, how we can get access to that?
Speaker: And with these three parts of a combo, we can do ABM.
Speaker: We don't necessarily need super sophisticated tech sacks.
Speaker: So that's for the second part for technology.
Speaker: And then for me, what is most important is like the knowledge, the market and the customer knowledge.
Speaker: As I said before, we have really to nail down our ICP, our buying company in our buyer journey.
Speaker: And once we have that, that's more important than technology or all other like fancy stuff.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Correct.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And how are you testing if a particular client, when they approach you, that they are fit to do ABM, right?
Speaker: So there are some hygiene that it needs to have higher ACVs, longer sales cycles, and then this standard stuff, right?
Speaker: So beyond that, let's say things like the organizational maturity, the culture, right?
Speaker: So
Speaker: the other resources, content, etc.
Speaker: What are the other things that you're actually sort of analyzing and then saying that, okay, you're actually ready to kickstart a program like this, even if it's pilot?
Speaker: Or you might have to fill in these details before you should embark.
Speaker: And hence, therefore, you can get better results, right?
Speaker: So what are the different aspects that you're considering before you actually help somebody kickstart an ABM program?
Speaker: Yeah, so I think that most of the companies, or I would even say that all the companies I've worked with, they were not ready for ABM.
Speaker: So that's not an issue because part of our jobs as ABMers is to prepare the ground for ABM.
Speaker: So that's part of our job or ABM project specifications, let's say.
Speaker: So I think that it's not a matter of
Speaker: of readiness is more, I think that is more about mindset.
Speaker: So we need to, or at least on my side, what I do is to check whether they have the correct mindset, if they really are ready to play a long-term game, and if they are ready to work cross-functionally.
Speaker: So if we have that, then we can prepare the ground for that.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So I think that that's super, super important, the mindset.
Speaker: And something that I think that we need to check before is whether ABM is the best go-to-market motion.
Speaker: Because what I see is that sometimes it's like, okay, let's do ABM because it's trendy or because, yes, I've heard that it works for
Speaker: a specific company, oh, everyone is doing ABM.
Speaker: We should do that.
Speaker: So for me, that's not a solid argument.
Speaker: We have to, first of all, I think that we need to do what I call a strategy diagnosis.
Speaker: So first of all, I try to understand if from a go-to-market point of view, ABM is the best solution.
Speaker: Because here we are talking about an approach that
Speaker: is super resource consuming and it's quite complex.
Speaker: So if we cannot do that with other methodologies, let's do ABM.
Speaker: And as you said, there are some kind of prerequisites, the ACV, high ticket, very long and complex buying processes.
Speaker: But apart all that, as you said, I think that we need to really pinpoint or figure out if
Speaker: ABM is the best strategy and then test, but not test for the sake of saying, okay, we've done ABM.
Speaker: Makes sense.
Speaker: As an external consultant, right?
Speaker: How easy or difficult is it for you to go and then influence, right?
Speaker: So there is certain way that the teams have been aligned and they've been used to working and then like,
Speaker: one fine day you show up and then say, Hey, we're doing this.
Speaker: And these are some of the things that we need to change because we are eventually shifting to like an ABM process.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So in your experience as somebody who's not internal, but external, right.
Speaker: So how have you been able to do what are the challenges and how do you typically overcome?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So as a consultant, I think that is way easier.
Speaker: to get the buy in and to move them the needle than internally.
Speaker: So before, before being a consultant, I work as a CMO for different startups and for different like companies.
Speaker: So for me internally inform other CMOs or other marketers, I think that is quite difficult to, um, to put in place this type of projects.
Speaker: Because sometimes when we are doing ABM, we internally, we already have the kind of marketing tag in ourselves.
Speaker: So as we need a more conspansional kind of view of everything, I think that having an external person that is kind of unbiased is a good way to jumpstart an ABM program.
Speaker: And when working as a consultant, my experience has been that it has been very...
Speaker: very powerful or very, very good for me to see that I could work with the board of directors in some projects and we could really make a difference because we had everyone in the same room and were there to take the good decisions and to jumpstart the project.
Speaker: So I think that being a consultant that definitely helps because basically they are paying you for to do the job.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: No, I think the director or whoever has chosen you is pumped up and then because they're paying you, so you're expected to deliver.
Speaker: But since you're going and then making changes to some status quo, for example, right?
Speaker: And then say, hey, there is a better way of doing these things and that this is how you do it.
Speaker: So I was just wondering, like, how difficult, how receptive are people to actually try out something, right?
Speaker: So we all...
Speaker: are very resistant to change, right?
Speaker: And if somebody is coming and then saying, your job profiles are changing, so you've been doing one, two, and three, but now you have to also do five other things because we wanted to prepare and then go do something else
Speaker: might be getting up more time or consuming more time and things like that.
Speaker: So these are some tactical things which we don't talk a lot.
Speaker: So I was just curious if you happen to encounter these kind of resistance.
Speaker: And I was wondering, how do you overcome?
Speaker: Yeah, so as you said, I think that the number one reason why projects
Speaker: doesn't work and doesn't matter, regardless of the type of project, ABM or other is change.
Speaker: As you said, like people, we are reluctant to change.
Speaker: And here, ABM is a kind of uncomfortable kind of project because we have to move a lot of things from different departments and we have to adopt a new mindset.
Speaker: So the way I address this
Speaker: is to do it progressively, like in little steps.
Speaker: And I think that being a consultant can allow you to have a more unbiased and also a more candid view.
Speaker: You can say things that when you are in-house, you cannot say.
Speaker: Sometimes when you are in-house, you have to really measure and you have to think about every single word in sentence.
Speaker: And it seems like a revolution sometimes when you are in-house, even if you don't do or you try
Speaker: not to hurt or to do things, uh, improperly sometimes just saying like something, small things, you can, they can, they can, yeah, it can make a lot of noise.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I think that being a consultant allows you to, to say things in a, in a more open way and in a more productive way.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right, so I was thinking, so how could I frame this question better?
Speaker: So we talked about executive buy-in, right?
Speaker: And I think this question that we were discussing here is how do you get team buy-ins, right?
Speaker: So internal, right?
Speaker: So people who are going to be part of the execution team because it's cross-functional and things like that, right?
Speaker: It's very important to get their buy-ins, right?
Speaker: And the sell the vision, sell the story, mission, etc.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: And there has to be a period where you focus just on that.
Speaker: So without that, it's going to be a very hard push, I suppose.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So, assuming we've done all of that and then you kickstart the programs, right?
Speaker: So, what component of an ABM execution motion have you seen the most challenging?
Speaker: Is it the research part?
Speaker: Is it the...
Speaker: the content part, is the orchestration part, is the sales enablement part, right?
Speaker: What are the different aspects, right?
Speaker: Of all the different aspects, what is the most challenging one and how can teams overcome such challenges?
Speaker: Yeah, I think that there are two key challenges.
Speaker: The first one is that I think that is the
Speaker: knowledge, the market and the customer knowledge, because quite often we rely too much on sales rep to garner or to give us their information.
Speaker: And this is now how things I think should be done.
Speaker: I think that we need to agree or we need to build some strategic assets, like a very solid ICP, not based on
Speaker: some specific people like insights, like only one person.
Speaker: No, we have to really back that up with customer, real customer insights.
Speaker: So I think that having that, like the strategic assets, the ICP, the budget committee, the budget journey is really is the backbone of any ABM campaign.
Speaker: And I think that is the trickiest part because when doing marketing, regardless whether it is ABM,
Speaker: We need that.
Speaker: We need to know who our customer is.
Speaker: But the thing is that we think that we know it, but we rarely have it.
Speaker: So for example, when stepping into companies and that's my experience as a consultant is in asking, do you have an ICP?
Speaker: Do you have a buying company?
Speaker: Then it is crickets.
Speaker: Really, like I would say like 95% of my clients is like crickets.
Speaker: Very big companies, it's like they don't,
Speaker: They don't, they don't have that.
Speaker: And okay.
Speaker: You say, okay, you don't have that.
Speaker: So no problem.
Speaker: So can you tell me about this?
Speaker: And then I try to kind of break down like all the different parts of a buying comedy.
Speaker: And they say, no, we don't have that.
Speaker: Reach out to a sales rep or reach out to whatever.
Speaker: So for me, that's like the, really the most challenging part in our city, something that is quite for them.
Speaker: I think that is quite top level.
Speaker: Sometimes they don't know how to apply that.
Speaker: It can be really a friction point or something that slows down the project.
Speaker: So for me as a consultant, this part is key to speed things up.
Speaker: To say, okay, we're going to organize some workshops.
Speaker: I'm going to take care of everything.
Speaker: You are here just to...
Speaker: share the knowledge that you have, and then I build for them everything so that they can have a solid customer and market insight kind of library with all the strategic assets.
Speaker: So I would say that that's the first one, the first key challenge.
Speaker: The second key challenge is content.
Speaker: The thing with content is that we think that we just need to
Speaker: kind of reuse the content that we already have.
Speaker: That means blog posts and eBooks.
Speaker: And the thing is that it's the opposite.
Speaker: We need to understand what our different buying committee members have as issues, our challenges, our pain points, and then say, okay, what type of messages do they need?
Speaker: What type of content?
Speaker: And then we have to do the other way around.
Speaker: And then once we understand that, okay, the question is,
Speaker: How do I repurpose the content that I already have?
Speaker: Sometimes it's even like, okay, let's audit the content that I have.
Speaker: And then can I leverage that?
Speaker: And if I can leverage that, how I have to repurpose that for ABM purposes?
Speaker: So that's like a key challenge is content.
Speaker: When we have to make content easy,
Speaker: easy to read, easy, accessible, but at the same time we have to do it fun.
Speaker: We have to create a memorable experience around content.
Speaker: So that's the key difference of ABM with respect to other go-to-market motions.
Speaker: So I would say that apart from all this buy-in or sales and marketing enablement, I think that content
Speaker: And I think that having these strategic assets are the two key challenges that we have today, or at least that I have as a consultant, yes.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So the first challenge that you were talking about, having the clarity of your customers, right?
Speaker: There could be also the other cases where
Speaker: they think they know and then they're sharing something and then saying, this is the type of customer and this is my ICP.
Speaker: Maybe it's actually not right.
Speaker: So how do you make sure when you start a program, that you actually validate and then understand that this is the actual customer to which it needs to be marketed?
Speaker: If you don't do that, then
Speaker: All the effort that you're putting, it's sort of going to go waste because you're maybe barking at the wrong trees.
Speaker: So one is your customers or your clients don't have the understanding of their buyers, their ICPs, their needs and things like that.
Speaker: There could be the other set of clients where they have a misinformed information, for example.
Speaker: So their understanding is completely different than what it should be.
Speaker: So have you come across, and if so, how do you validate and then make sure if you're choosing an ICP, it's actually what, it's the right set of accounts or approaches that you should go after to these accounts.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that's a very interesting, like kind of approach to it because that sometimes happens.
Speaker: It's quite common to have that specific situation.
Speaker: So what I do, first of all, every time that I'm given something is to analyze it really to make sure that I understand everything.
Speaker: And then basically I list down like all the questions or all the things that don't make sense for me.
Speaker: And then I bring up the questions.
Speaker: Basically that's what I do is to bring up the questions and
Speaker: If I hear a lot of crickets, a lot of, I have no responses.
Speaker: That means that there's something that maybe we should dive into.
Speaker: For example, if, if I share like one experience that I had, that I think that is quite similar to, to, to the experience that you share is that, for example, I was working with, with one of my clients and they were super sure that
Speaker: They had an account list.
Speaker: They were running campaigns and cover ads with one AVM like vendor, and they were sure that the targeting was right.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: But the result was that the bounce rate was 95%.
Speaker: The average session time was just like two or three seconds.
Speaker: And then the same people were being served seven times the same ad.
Speaker: No content differentiation, only one type of content.
Speaker: So for me, I mean, it's not like ABM is, I would say that it's just a like marketing common sense, as I say, there's something that is not working for that campaign.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: For me, I tried to understand, my objective was to understand whether it was the audience, the message, it was the time, or it was the place.
Speaker: So, okay.
Speaker: So the audience, the first question that I brought up was, okay, what is the criteria that is behind this account selection?
Speaker: So the answer that I got from the teams was that, yeah,
Speaker: It was the sales people that gave us this list.
Speaker: And then I went to the sales teams and they said, ah, no, we just took like a list like that.
Speaker: And then I tried to dive into that.
Speaker: And then they said, no, no, we don't know much.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And someone, the guy that did that, he left.
Speaker: For example, this was the response.
Speaker: So for me, a way to...
Speaker: As you said, to answer your question, a way to kind of, to address this kind of misinformation or misforming when it comes to the information that they have is just to ask questions because if you can kind of bring arguments or to bring facts, it's okay.
Speaker: But if you cannot, so we, we need to, we need to focus more on that.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: This is good stuff.
Speaker: Yeah, I think I have a few more questions, but I think in the interest of time, we'll wrap this conversation.
Speaker: So I think it has been super helpful, right?
Speaker: I guess the first sort of consultant external sort of an ABM expert coming and then helping these companies, right?
Speaker: So your perspective from that point of view, right?
Speaker: I think it has been super useful.
Speaker: I'm sure our audience too will find it useful.
Speaker: Tanya, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker: It's been a wonderful conversation and then...
Speaker: We'll be in touch and if people want to reach out to you, I suppose LinkedIn is the best channel.
Speaker: We'll make sure you link the profile so people can connect, discuss, and maybe take your service to it.
Speaker: That's required.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Any parting thoughts that you have?
Speaker: No, I think that's all.
Speaker: I think that we have covered pretty much
Speaker: everything so that's that's really good yeah that's cool that's good thank you so much thank you
