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Why You Can't Break a Scam With Factos Alone, A conversation with Ayleen Charlotte, Founder S.A.F.E.
177 Plays9 days ago
Most of us believe that if someone is being scammed, all they need is proof.
Show them the evidence. Point out the red flags. Explain the facts.
But what if that's not enough?
In this episode of Scam Rangers, I sit down with Ayleen Charlotte, survivor of the Tinder Swindler and founder of SAFE (Scam Awareness & Fraud Education), to explore what really happens when someone isunder the influence of a scammer and why breaking that manipulation requires much more than facts.
Ayleen shares her personal journey from victim to advocate, including the emotional aftermath of discovering that the relationship she believed in never existed. We discuss how scams reshape the way people think, why victims often defend the scammer, and what banks, investigators, frontline teams, and even family members need to understand if they truly want to help.
This conversation goes beyond one remarkable story. It challenges many of the assumptions we've made about scam prevention and highlights why understanding human psychology is just as important as understanding fraud.
What You'll Learn
- Why scam victims can't always be convinced with facts alone.
- How manipulation changes the way people think, process information, and make decisions.
- The different stages of the "scam spell" and why interventions must adapt to each stage.
- Why fraudsters intentionally position banks and loved ones as the enemy.
- What organizations can do to become more victim-centered and trauma-informed.
- How Ayleen transformed her lived experience into SAFE, a training platform helping financial institutions, law enforcement, and organizations better support scam victims.
Featured Guest
Ayleen Charlotte is an international speaker, fraud awareness advocate, and founder of SAFE (Scam Awareness & Fraud Education). Following her experience as one of the victims featured in The Tinder Swindler, she dedicated her career to helping organizations better understand the psychology of manipulation and improve how they support scam victims through victim-centered, trauma-informed education.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayleen-charlotte-09a338256/
About the Host
Ayelet Biger-Levin is the Founder and CEO of RangersAI and the host of Scam Rangers, a podcast exploring the human side of scams and the people working to protect consumers from financial and emotional harm.
Through her work at RangersAI and her leadership within the Global Anti-Scam Alliance and the Stop Scams Alliance, Ayelet partners with financial institutions, policymakers, and industry leaders to advance a more human-centered approach to scam prevention.
Follow Ayelet on LinkedIn to continue the conversation and learn more about the work being done to build scam resilience.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayelet-biger-levin/
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Transcript
The Fraudster's Strategy
00:00:01
Speaker
But the moment they are picking up that phone to ring up a customer, it's the moment the trust between the the potential victim and the fraudster is getting deeper. Because they are warned, the potential victim is warned already by the fraudster that the bank is going to call them.
00:00:21
Speaker
So the moment they are going to pick up the phone, the bank is already in minus, minus five, minus 10. Really depends on the level of manipulation they are in. Because if you take a look at, for example, investment fraud, the fraudster have sent us because we know they are working with scripts and in their scripts is saying, oh The bank is going to call you because they want to protect their own assets. So please don't share too much information about this amazing opportunity. It's between us. So they use the secrecy and they use the technique to make the bank the enemy.
Guest Introduction: Eileen Charlotte
00:00:59
Speaker
So I'm very, very excited for today's Scam Ranger to be on the podcast. Eileen Charlotte has a lived experience with scams and has turned that into a mission of protection and education. I'm so excited to talk about her work today and also listen to her story and share that with you.
00:01:21
Speaker
Welcome the human side of fraud and the people who are on a mission to protect us. I'm your host Ayelet Bigger Levine and I'm passionate about driving awareness and solving this problem.
00:01:40
Speaker
So welcome so much, Aileen. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for having me.
Connection through Global Anti-Scam Alliance
00:01:46
Speaker
I will say that Aileen and I met virtually. Actually, we only met virtually not too long ago, but we know each other from our activity with the Global Anti-Scam Alliance. We're both ah advisory board members or ambassadors right now. And um we've both been very active on that side. So thank you so much for everything you do. I'm going to preface with that, but let's hear more about that. So for those who don't know, I wanted to ask if you can take us back to what happened to you and how you became involved later on in the anti-scam movement.
Tinder Encounter with Simon Leviev
00:02:19
Speaker
Well, we have to go way back because we need to go back to November 2017. I was on Tinder, I was swiping and I liked someone and I had a match. We started talking and he was very interested in my life. I was very interested in his life. After a few weeks, we started to talk on WhatsApp.
00:02:42
Speaker
And when I was in London for work, I saw on his Instagram that he was in London too. And that's where I finally physically met Simon Leviev. Oh, my God. I haven't said his name in such a long time because I always call him. I never call him by his name. um Well, that's not really his name, right? No, it's not. No. ah But I didn't know it.
00:03:08
Speaker
Back then? Well, from the first time we met, it felt like we immediately had a connection. ah And it was something I never felt before with a guy. I felt so comfortable with him. He was funny. He was smart. He was well-dressed. We had the same interest.
00:03:26
Speaker
um But because of his his father, he was the CEO of a diamond company. And he told me that the diamond industry was a very dangerous business. And after a few months into the relationship, because we did see each other a lot everywhere I traveled for work, he traveled or came to visit me.
Escalation of the Scam
00:03:49
Speaker
He was always in Amsterdam. Everywhere I go, he goes. He was very interested in in my life, about my family, about my friends, my work life, my private at life. And Like in those months, I totally fell in love with him and I have never received so many red roses in my life. But after seven months into the relationship, he already told me that the diamond industry was a very dangerous business and...
00:04:16
Speaker
He, after I think seven months into the relationship, he lost a big business deal and his enemies were closer than ever. And if they couldn't catch him, they would come for me or my family. So we were kind of in danger. And therefore, he needed a safe address to live and um a credit card and flight tickets, which were not under his name. So I offer him to move in with me. And that's what he did. And I gave him my credit card, all of my savings.
00:04:47
Speaker
And he sends me a check or a wire transfer to cover everything. But of course, the wire transfer never arrived. And he had an amazing answer for every question I ask him. So it keeps on going. So an amazing answer. You mean and like an excuse for why this wire transfer didn't arrive and what is happening? and Yes.
00:05:11
Speaker
And everything sounds so logical back then. And the biggest issue was as well that...
Financial Entanglement
00:05:18
Speaker
Every single time when I went to my bank or I ring up my bank and I asked them like, hey, I have this wire transfer. Can you see something? Do you know something? They constantly sent me back to the sender of the wire transfer, which was my fraudster. So and of course, I didn't know it back then. But also on the wire transfer, there were a few spelling mistakes and also a few counting mistakes. ah But they never informed me about it. And I never saw these as well. So, so i no way just to clarify that point, so he did wire money, but he made a mistake, so it bounces back immediately automatically? Well, it never bounces back because he never did the transfer, but that's what he said, of course.
00:06:00
Speaker
When I figure out the spelling mistake and when I did figure out the counting mistake, he was like, oh my God, that's the reason why it never arrived. I'm going to send you another one. But this was already like one and a half to two months into the fraud, into the scheme.
00:06:15
Speaker
So and then you start to understand like, oh, yes, of course. Now I understand why the money is not arriving. So you keep believing in this story and you keep on giving money because he keeps on pressuring me ah to get more money. I also in the meantime, I got like two big personal loans of 30,000 euros each and that he has two to take. Yes, he asked me to take. And yeah, I was able to get them, which was a little bit easy. So I had to pay them monthly. And still the money never arrived. And every single time he was telling about getting getting his money out of the bank in I don't know where. um somewhere in Africa. He had a bank account. He had a bank account in Israel. He had a bank account in the US. He had a bank account on the Cayman. And every single time he was starting an operation, that's how he called them, ah to open up these bank accounts or to free his money, the operation ended at step nine out of 10.
00:07:22
Speaker
And then the operation failed. And then he had to start all over again into another operation. And I was the one who needed to fund it um because he couldn't reach his money.
Unveiling the Truth
00:07:33
Speaker
And of course, I believe him, ah especially because we were so close. we He called me i maybe 12 times a day. And of course, now everything makes sense because I understand why he called me 18 times or 20 times a day. But he was always there and we shared our deepest secrets. We shared our lives. We shared lot love we had so many amazing clans for the future. And this is what you want to hold on to. And this is what you want to save. And this is what you're fighting for. really was us against the world. And but deeper into the scam, I also got a lot of mental health issues.
00:08:14
Speaker
I started to develop ah anxiety, anger issues, ah sleeping problems. So and i also started to doubt myself. a lot and i i found out the gaslighting at a certain point and i think from even more into a year into the relationship his stories became more and more in disbelief.
00:08:39
Speaker
Every single time he started to another operation and then he had good news but then a day later he had bad news and The other day, he was going to bring $50,000 cash from Switzerland to Amsterdam. And it it started to become a bit weird. And i think it was 14 months, 16, yeah, 16 months into the relationship. And that's when I finally saw him again, because i didn't saw him for a little while because I didn't have the money to travel to see him.
00:09:11
Speaker
And we finally met each other in Prague. And there he gave me his golden iPhone. And he really ensured me that everything was going to be fine. Only if I was going to get him extra money, which I couldn't anymore. And it really felt that I was never going to see him again. Because when we were together, the the chemistry we had before, it was completely gone. And he dropped me off at Prague airport. And back then I was still smoking. I smoked a cigarette. I opened up my Instagram. And there I saw his face for the first time on my Instagram. So I clicked on his picture and it was connected to a Norwegian article ah called The Tinder Swindler. And from the first sentence I started to read, I immediately knew.
00:10:02
Speaker
So I still had to go on to a plane. I have goosebumps. Yeah. don't know the story. i have goosebumps. oh then And I still had to go back to Amsterdam because there was an emergency at work. So I had to go back to Amsterdam and from ms from the airport, I directly had to go to work and i i was I was in so many emotions. i First of all, I really didn't want the plane to land because I knew that I was going to face so much, pardon my language, but so much shit.
00:10:37
Speaker
And um yeah, I knew I had to face them because i knew this was the truth. I knew i was, I lost a lot of money. was in deep, deep debt, ah He was never who he said he was. Everything I lived in for the past one and a half year was a lie. I was doubting myself for not seeing this, for not stopping this sooner. or So there were like so many emotions at the same time, but I also had to understand that I was still in contact with him. And I really didn't know what to do. So I started to go to the police and I thought, well, I'm i'm still in contact with him. Here's the evidence of the article. I know where he is. One plus one. um Well, that was never the case. And that's not how it works. um because I was sent away ah three to four times. At the fourth time, I was finally able to finally file a police report. But during the the filing of the police report and reporting the fraud, trying to contact the banks and being sent away at every organization I needed help from, I really didn't know what to do.
Aftermath of the Scam
00:11:46
Speaker
And I... The only thing I really knew was that I was in huge debt and I was in so much problems. ah I was almost going to lose my house, my car. I couldn't pay my mortgage anymore. I couldn't pay nothing. That's how how deep everything was. um And he was still on the other side.
00:12:07
Speaker
pushing me to get more money for his operations, to get back his money, to get back my money. And that's when I came up with a brilliant idea because I didn't got any help. And then he was still pushing me and I needed money too.
00:12:21
Speaker
And that's where I came up with the idea to sell his high expensive high-end fashion clothes because I knew he had many because those were the questions I asked him million times I was like oh hey this last collection Louboutin or this is last collection Gucci how who is paying that for you if you're living out of my money and he always had a great answer for that he always had an answer and it's everything sounds very logical ah But now I suggested him like, hey, you have all of these expensive clothes. You need to be undetected. You need to be still at a place where no one can find you.
00:13:00
Speaker
Just give all the clothes to me and I can sell it for you. And I'm going to send you the money. But of course, that was never my end game or my end plan. So he he became very enthusiastic. he was like, oh my God, that's such a good idea. how do How much do you think this is worth? How much do you think this is worth? And he but even booked me a flight ticket back to Prague. And I traveled back to Amsterdam with three suitcase ah loaded with 33 kilos each.
00:13:27
Speaker
And I always say, I still don't know how I did it, but I did it ah because I was on a mission and I came back to Amsterdam and there was I was like, okay, so I need to sell this. There's a lot of pressure. I was still filing my police report. I was still dealing with him. And I knew that there was going to be a moment where he would find out that I was never going to send him the money.
00:13:50
Speaker
And that moment came and that was the moment where all the debt threats start. Um, the messages to my house, the messages to my parents, all the death threats that the really crazy psychological messages I have ever heard more than 20 minutes, um,
00:14:12
Speaker
Sometimes even four or five after each other of 20 minutes long. Like it it was really crazy. And at a certain point, he really cut off all contact. And that's the moment I started to get more angry at myself because it felt like I was missing him.
00:14:29
Speaker
But it was never the feeling of missing him, but it was more that because it feels like an addiction, these type of frauds, you because they also play with your hormones, ah which is crazy to understand or to find out after.
Legal Challenges
00:14:45
Speaker
So, yeah, and um that's when he got arrested in Greece because of my help, because I knew on which flight he was. He landed in Greece and then he was arrested and he could only be arrested for having a fake passport. But eventually he was sent back to Israel because... So, hold on for a second.
00:15:04
Speaker
Can you explain that? So, he could only be arrested for having a fake passport because obviously he was not Simon Levayev. He was Shimon Khayyut, right? Yes. Was his his name? Yes. um And... Why was he not arrested for all the crimes he's done? i just Until today, i still don't know why. Because there are so many police reports against this guy in Israel. And a Norwegian article is because there was an Norwegian victim. And then you have, ah um you know, other victims from other countries. Unfortunately, you know, there are many. Very international. Yeah.
00:15:40
Speaker
So how was he only arrested for having a fake passport? Because he wasn't even traveling under the name Simon Levayev. He was traveling under ah another name. And that was, i was the only one who knew that identity. Yeah, but no, I understand why he was arrested for that, why he was, he not and like, for the crimes he actually did that are bigger. What is the gap in the legal system from your understanding at this point? I know you're not a lawyer, but or maybe you are. But but what are the gaps based on your understanding that need to be closed?
00:16:11
Speaker
If I file a police support in the Netherlands and they are not sending this to, for example, Interpol and bundle everything together. ah with the files from nor Norway, with the files from Sweden, with the files from Israel, with the files from the UK, with the files from Germany, then it can never become one case. So you always have these cases in these separate countries and that's it. ah So if there is no arrest warrant in Europe or international, then he cannot be caught.
00:16:43
Speaker
But, and the cases are when they are closed. So for example, Cecile's case and Pernilla's case are closed. So he can even go to Sweden or to Norway.
00:16:55
Speaker
Because the case are closed. And this is something what I still don't understand. Because by letting this guy walk out free, you give green light to so many other criminals like this.
00:17:11
Speaker
Because people see on, of course, it's it's it's also shown in the documentary. People see like, oh, hey, he took 150k from her. He took 200k from her. He took 60k from her. That's easy money. Let's do it as well. And he's still out there. He's still free and he can still do his thing. He can still go do interviews. He can still be on television. People are still interested in him. can be in reality shows. He's in reality shows. Even and the Anna Delphi, she was in Dancing with the Stars in the US. Oh my God. That's that's super insane. Yeah. And there are so many researchers on this that shows that fraud has more impact on a person than a physical burglary so or home invasion. So I still don't understand why they don't see it as a high-impact crime. Yeah, I think that's something that's starting to come out
Path to Recovery
00:18:04
Speaker
more and more. I think it's new research, relatively new, and we still need to get it into the the um education, ah police, you know, ah realm. Policies need to be created to enable, ah first, what you said about, you know, centralizing the day data, sending everything to Interpol. Like, we need protocol for this because... Similar to what Tracy Hall shared with us two episodes ago, that was also an international criminal. I think he was caught for his crimes in Australia, but I don't know that it was for the crimes he committed in other countries as well. And now he's he's done with his time. And I truly believe that these are personality traits. Like everything you described is sheer narcissism, right? And the love bombing and the gaslighting and all these behaviors that
00:18:50
Speaker
ah So it's not going to stop because it's so ingrained in in one's personality who's who's committing these crimes. So, yeah, it's it's definitely something that that needs to be changed on a policy level.
00:19:04
Speaker
Scams don't begin with money moves. They begin when trust is manipulated one message at a time. Rangers AI builds ScamRanger to help step in before the damage, detecting scam messages and guiding people while they still have the power to choose. And on the ScamRangers podcast, we bring you the voices on the front lines, experts, advocates, and leaders fighting back.
00:19:27
Speaker
Because stopping scams means protecting people before they're pulled in. Learn more at rangersai.com.
00:19:36
Speaker
I want to switch gears. Thank you so much for sharing your story. But I want to talk about what happened after. So that happened. Then he sent all the threats. Then he stopped communicating. And you started to feel mad at yourself for missing him, which is so understandable, to be honest with you, because it is a relationship. And we hear this often that it's more than the money. It's the relationship. It's your life plans. You had a future imagined with this person. So I can see how how that is a big part of you need to go through grief. Think about a normal relationship when you break up with someone. It takes a long time. We're talking about a year and a half of a relationship here. So, so understandable. And it was physical as well.
00:20:15
Speaker
That's what a lot of people don't understand. It was physical. I really saw him. We travel. He he was sitting next to me on the couch. We were watching TV. He met friends. He met family. But um yeah, the aftermath, I think that's when we talk about the aftermath, that's even harder to describe what but you have to go through. Like I said, he was at a certain point, he was arrested. And i had a little bit of finally some time to start or try to heal from this and to really understood and understand what happened to me. And I immediately said, i need therapy. I cannot do this alone. So I did EMDR therapy, which is trauma therapy. I also did mindfulness and very intense trauma ah therapy. which took me over one and a half years to really understand what what happened to me and to finally also regain confidence, but also regain like the little parts of my life because everything was a mess. My whole brain was a complete mess. If you understand that, it's it's not only that, like you just said, you're losing your boyfriend. No, it's it's you need to understand that this person has never existed, but he exists. He's there, but he never existed. The person i met... So you you also need to understand that, oh my God, I'm in debt. So you need to fight against everything because everything is under your name. That's what he, of course, he- That's his pattern. That's his pattern. Then you need to file police report. You need to, I also lost my job. I lost friends. And this was in a very short period of time after I found out that I was defrauded. So- I was going through so many emotions at the same time. and My head was like one gray mess. And I always explain this, like my best friend went to, was going on a holiday to Italy in the same period.
00:22:15
Speaker
And I asked her five to seven times, like, hey, are you are you going on a holiday this summer? And she was like, yeah, I'm going to Italy. And was like, oh my God, so amazing. Where in Italy you're going? And she was eventually, she said, oh my God, Eileen, you asked this already for seven times. And it was not because I was not interested or didn't listen, but it was, there was so many things to process at once. That you really have to get structure again. And that's what I asked from my therapist. I said, how can I build up structure? How can i put this gray mass into something normal again or rational again? So he really helped me with it. And it took me a long time.
00:22:57
Speaker
And yeah, then two years after, 2019 or 20, I was contacted by someone who was making a documentary.
Advocacy and Systemic Change
00:23:08
Speaker
And I was like, well, nah, I just started. It was um ah COVID and I just going to start a new job. And I was like, ah why? And they tried for almost eight to nine months and I really had to think about it. And at a certain point, I was like, you know what, if I keep my mouth shut,
00:23:24
Speaker
then everything will be in his advantage. And that's when I decided to participate in the documentary. And we did the recordings and six months later it was released and it exploded. And since then, I just started a new job as well back then. And I, or I had to stay there or I had to go into the wide world. And I noticed that there were so many questions for my story, so many requests for my story, sorry, that I was like, okay, you know what? I'm going to make my work out of it. And that's where I am now. So tell me about the first time you stood on a stage and shared your story.
00:24:05
Speaker
How did you feel about that? And what was the reaction? Yeah. Well, it was at Global Anti-Scam Alliance in The Hague. It was right after COVID and it was a very small group. I joined that one virtually. Yes, I know. um I share my story and people clap for it and people praise me and they were like, oh my God, thank you so much for sharing. And until then, people only judged me for sharing my story. Yeah. know, I always had to explain why this happened or what happened or how or how stupid I was or how could I not see it. I always had to defend myself. And the first time I shared my story with ah with Lomalands Camerlines, I felt like, oh, my God, people are clapping. People need my story. Oh, my God, we really need to change this, this world. There's so much to change. And that's when I started to like it. and share my story and I made it my job out of it.
00:25:00
Speaker
And at a certain point, I found out that I was talking to a lot of victims and I was talking to law enforcement, financial institutions, and there was a lot missing what a victim needed. And there there is ah still a lot missing what financial institutions or ah law enforcement or victim support or first responders know about victims of fraud. And that's when I started to get the idea of creating a training, developing a training.
00:25:35
Speaker
So let's break that down a little bit before we get into the training, because I think that's ah that's exactly what we want to dive into next. But what is missing, I think it has many layers, right? It's not just how to talk to victims. That's one. But also how easy it was for you to get that loan initially in the process. Like, what are the red flags that financial institutions need to consider when they offer loans? Because even if I think the perception of financial institutions has been for years, it's either identity theft or account takeover.
00:26:05
Speaker
It could be first party fraud where you are the criminal asking for the loan. But I think the perception or notion of I manipulated and I'm coerced into doing something has not been a big part. The processes have have not been built around that level of coercion. And that is happening now and skyrocketed through the last few years. So the whole perception of, you know, let's add to the list of ah possibilities that manipulation is something relatively new and something that really is different because it's not like, is it, is the customer coming from the right location? Can they pass authentication? which is like a account takeover, or it has has this identity been stolen or reported, it really takes another level of depth to understand the psychological and and manipulation components and nuances, and how does that really translate into the manipulation? So what happens when they try to break the spell? I think that's one of the first questions, kind of, is breaking the spell effective, or how can it be effective? Is that what you go into in your training?
00:27:12
Speaker
Well, first of all, I did a lot of research on how to break the spell because nobody tried it with me, but I only heard. And that's the question I constantly get from financial institutions while I'm on stage.
00:27:26
Speaker
How do we break the spell? And I started to understand the methods that banks are using. But the problem is, is what they don't integrate into that method is understanding the victim and understanding what they go through in what stages they are and how far they are in the manipulation.
00:27:51
Speaker
You need to have different techniques for different stages. And that's what I did research on. Because, for example, if I see my own fraud, in the beginning, I was completely like completely addicted, but I was still in doubt. In the middle, I was completely in. I was in action mode constantly. And at the end, there were a lot of seed of doubts planted with me. So you need to understand, and this is what I teach in my trainings.
Introducing the SAFE Framework
00:28:24
Speaker
I teach them to understand the level of manipulation the potential victim is in. I call it potential victim because they are not victim yet.
00:28:36
Speaker
We know, but they don't know it yet. So from their perspective, they don't think that they're a victim because... And some some might have seeds of doubt, like you said, that, you know, maybe they think, but but also even if they there's a seed of doubt in their mind saying this might be, I might be a victim, it's so hard to acknowledge that because it means so many hard things. If I admit to myself that I might be a victim, it means so many hard things. If you are in the middle of a scam, you would rather like to send another a twenty k
00:29:06
Speaker
than facing the truth because it's super hard. And there is another component where a lot of banks, I don't want to say like understand, but the moment they are picking up that phone to ring up a customer, it's the moment the trust between the the potential victim and the fraudster is getting deeper because they are warned. The potential victim is warned already by the fraudster that the bank is going to call them.
00:29:36
Speaker
So the moment they are going to pick up the phone, the bank is already in minus, minus five, minus 10. Really depends on the level of manipulation they are in. Because if you take a look at, for example, investment fraud, the fraudster have sent us because we know they are working with scripts and in their scripts is saying, Oh, the bank is going to call you because they want to protect their own assets. So please don't share too much information about this amazing opportunity. It's between us. So they use the secrecy and they use the technique to make the bank the enemy.
00:30:12
Speaker
So the moment they are going to ring up that customer, it's the moment it's like, oh my God, this is what he said already for three, four times. Look, I can trust him. Right. It's exactly what he said. What happened? What happened? This is exactly what happened. So, and then also a part is the ego, the ego of someone who wants to wake up a victim. It's like, hey, they see that this person is getting scammed, defrauded. So they have a goal. Like, hey, I'm going to wake this person up. But if you don't understand or don't take all of those stages into account, you can never wake them up. Because you cannot wake someone up with only facts and figures. Do you think it's possible to break a spell? Yes, yes, absolutely. But you need to have the right techniques. So let's talk about SAFE and what you've developed and what your goal is and where you are with that. Yes, well, it's very hot, so I need to drink.
00:31:10
Speaker
ah I'm sitting here in my AC enjoying the the coolness. So jealous. Well, by December, I'm sure have this. going to check you up on that. Yes. ah ah Okay, so what I did with SAFE is I wanted to build around the how to break the scam spell.
00:31:28
Speaker
But I also, during my research, I found out that you need more components. You need more knowledge on how to break the spell. So that's why I built in total five modules. And the first one is understanding and the psychology behind scams, but also the impact on a victim and the impact of fraud, how it works.
00:31:51
Speaker
It's very important what kind of techniques they use, what kind of hormones they trigger, how many biases we all have and how many biases fraudsters use. The second one is how to communicate with victims of fraud. effective, but also how to listen, because this is where a lot of things go wrong as well, because we are used to have conversations 50-50, but in a conversation with a victim or a potential victim of fraud, you need 20-80. So the victim needs to speak 80%.
00:32:23
Speaker
How do you do that? I teach them and you need to listen to the deception. So in which state they are Then i have how to break the spell. So I build a lot of techniques on how to break the spell. And then we have the fourth module is supporting victims beyond the fraud, because I remember it was, it came up in our last conversation. And it was something I just shared as well. You need to understand that the moment a victim is still, they start to understand that they are a victim, but they are on a very, very thin line of going back to the fraudster or facing the truth and going into that very deep, potentially depressing hole. Yeah, I think that the moment the moment that you shared earlier that resonates is like, I never wanted the plane to land because I understood what I need to deal with. That is the thin line. That's the thin line. And of course, I i immediately knew, but there is still a little voice in your head that is hoping that it's not true.
00:33:27
Speaker
You know it's true, but so, and frauds can be very convincing. So, You need to support victims beyond the fraud. It's not that one phone call and you can hang up and, oh my God, that's, oh, they woke up, done, good luck. No, you need to support them also for their healing process. And then the fifth module is how to make organizations more victim-centered and trauma-informed.
00:33:54
Speaker
We need those because fraud victims, 67% of victims of fraud have PTSD symptoms when they get out of the fraud. 67%, that's a lot.
00:34:05
Speaker
So you need to have that trauma-informed because PTSD is trauma. So you need to have that trauma-informed communication with a victim. You need to know what to say, what not to say. And you can do that only by listening as well to the victim.
00:34:22
Speaker
So there are so many components into ah SAFE and I build this this five modules also you can take them ah separately and from each other. But for example, how to break the spell or how to become a more victim-centered organization, you need them all. Because like you just said in the beginning, If you want to have a more victim-centered organization, I can train 15 people or 50. That's fine. But if their management still believes that being a victim of fraud is stupid, then the whole training is gone within weeks. So you need to start from
00:35:01
Speaker
You need to start communication. You need to not only in letters to customers, but also in the total communication within four victims of fraud.
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think that the C-level discussion of the financial institution or any organization that deals with scam victims has to be empathy and has to be understanding. So if that is not happening on the C-level, acknowledgement of that, then it won't trickle down to the organization properly. So that's really so send this episode to your leaders. Yeah. ah Yes. And also ah to yourself, because you can teach how to train, how to break the spell. It's very, very important to to know that there are great techniques out there.
00:35:53
Speaker
And I have them. Today you offer that as ah like a frontal training, like you deliver the training and then you're developing also e-learning modules for
Development of SAFE Academy
00:36:03
Speaker
this? Yes, correct. Because I did a lot of training in the past two years, well, one and a half years. And everyone asked me like, oh, do you have the training also online? Do you have it all online? Do you have it online? And I was like, oh, maybe I should create them as ah online learning modules as well. So that's what I'm developing now. And it's going to be called SAFE Academy because and the training I have is called SAFE, Scam Awareness and Fraud Education. And SAFE Academy is not only for professionals, it's also for individuals. Because SAFE is not only just the training, it's also how to talk to your family or ah friends who are in the middle of a scam spell. Because when I received so many messages from people who were in a scam or a fraud, it was not only about them, but so many people who are around people who were in the scam spell contacted me. And that's when I saw like this red line.
00:37:07
Speaker
And I was like, oh, I need to do something with this as well. So I'm also training and develop a guide for family and friends how to get your loved one out of the scan spell, how to start those conversations.
00:37:19
Speaker
Yeah, there's so many. um If you look at the Reddit sub for scams, there are a lot of people suspecting that something might be a scam. But these are typically shorter scams, right? i got this message that looks like a scam. i got this email or whatever. But there are a lot of people there saying, I think my mother, my aunt,
00:37:38
Speaker
Whatever relationship member of the family is going through this, how do I how do I get them to stop? They won't listen to me. So I think that's so, so important because, you know, that is more than a bank, typically a trusted person in your life. But it's still hard to hear the truth from them or to and maybe they're wrong. Maybe this person is legitimate. and You know, there's a lot of doubt also in the in the family member of of how should I address this correctly?
00:38:05
Speaker
I had a question. So first of all, i'll put in the show notes how people can reach out to you if they're from a financial institution, they want training. And I'll be happy to post also on my LinkedIn when it's out there for the e-learning. I had a question about...
00:38:21
Speaker
generally kind of activism in the space. And first of all, congratulations for everything that you've done, starting from that moment that you realized that the money is gone and you sold the clothes and took that money to recoup. I'm sure it's just a small part of your losses, but it's still a small win that helped you begin there the journey and then turning this into You know, such an important, deeper level of education that we are really missing that the the whole human side of scam protection is is a huge gap right now because we haven't dealt with this. It's always how do we make this a stingless customer experience? But ah criminals have unfortunately become very strong and in targeting humans. So we need we need that protection layer across the scam lifecycle. Yes, absolutely. And when I started to do research on this, because I didn't know for sure if I was going to launch it or develop it. And when I started to do research on it, I really found out that there are no victim-centered trauma-informed trainings.
00:39:22
Speaker
And I couldn't understand. And I was like, okay, did I do my research correctly? but So I started to do research again and I have a lot of friends who are, um my friends always call me FB Eileen. but so And they were like, Eileen, if you cannot find it, then it's not there. It doesn't exist. And that's why like yeah, SAFE is going to be the first victim center training platform there is. And I wanted to mention as well that the training modules are also going to be in white label.
00:39:56
Speaker
Because I understand that financial institutions, it's so much easier. Everyone has their training and e-learning program already place. So that's why my modules are also white label so they can integrate them into their own learning models.
00:40:12
Speaker
So I did have ah a small question here, but I just realized all the people that I know in the industry that are speaking up as you know former scam victims turned education. I'll just note a few. Anna Rowe, Cecilia Philhoy, yourself, Pranella, who was also a victim of the Tinder Swinner and turned into, now she had developed technology to fight scams. And then um Tracy Hall from Australia. Very smart, intelligent, powerful women. And my question is, where are the men? Research shows that men and women are equally scammed. And I think for investment scams, it's even more men.
00:40:51
Speaker
and I'm talking about financial grooming, also known as pig butchering, where it is a relationship, not necessarily romantic, but a relationship that develops into crypto investment or platform investment. So have you encountered men in this industry that kind of spoke up? And what are your thoughts around that? Like, where are the men turned advocates in this space?
00:41:13
Speaker
Well, I first started to wonder the same because i was like, I only saw women speaking up and talking about it. And ah most of them are survivors of romance fraud. And then I started to understand, but hey, there are many types of fraud.
00:41:29
Speaker
Where are the other? Yeah. ah People. And I remember that I saw two guys in in the past four years since I do this myself.
00:41:40
Speaker
I saw two guys doing keynote speeches, but that's it. And I was wondering as well, like what was the percentage or the differences between men and scams and and women? But like you said, it's 50-50, even in romance scams.
00:41:56
Speaker
So I really don't know where they are. And the only thing I truly hope is that they are not covered in shame and that they are speaking up and that maybe after listening to the podcast, they are like, oh, my God, I need to share my story as well.
00:42:14
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's important because, and I failed to mention Beth Highland, of course, I think that once we hear more men speak up too, then other men will feel that they can speak up, right? It's just like, I think the women that spoke up in the Tinder Swindler really paved the way for other women to speak up. So if any, you know, unfortunately, a man who's a scam victim is hearing this, please, you know, I'm happy to share a story here or any platform. It will encourage others because it's, you know, it can happen to anyone. And we see all these intelligent people. it doesn't mean anything about you. it's ah It's a criminal pattern that is attacking us. And just, you know, there are so many reasons. So definitely encourage everyone to speak up. um and And the more we know, the more we can make do something about it as an industry.
00:43:05
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. It's a snowball effect. Like you said, if one man stands up, you can help maybe three others. It would be amazing if if that can happen. Because we need to speak up, otherwise the criminals are always in advantage. The criminals will always win. And that's not what we want.
00:43:30
Speaker
I really wish you a lot of luck in getting traction for the safe platform. It's so, so important. It's so important to really understand from the perspective of lived experiences and how to break the spell. I really think it's a challenge to break the spell because it all the stages ah that you need to go through to your acknowledge, but you have a way to do that. So I think it's so, so important for organizations to tap into that. Eileen, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you again so much for time and for sharing the information um and hope to get you on the podcast soon after launch. Yes. Thank you so much for having me and um have a great day. You too. And hope to speak to you soon. Thank you.