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00:00:01
The Trust Layer: Why Banks Must Partner with Customers to Stop Scams
1 Plays3 seconds ago
For years, the banking industry focused on one goal: reduce friction. Every extra interaction with a customer was viewed as something to avoid.
But scams have changed the rules.
When criminals manipulate customers into authorizing payments themselves, transaction monitoring alone can't tell the whole story. The missing piece is context—and the only person who has it is the customer.
In this episode, Ayelet sits down with Kate Pundik, Fraud Risk Management Program Manager at Valley Bank, and Juliana Bogotinoska, FVP and BSA Officer at Bankwell, to discuss why proactive customer engagement is becoming one of the most powerful tools in modern fraud prevention.
Together, they explore how banks are rethinking trust, why customer outreach is no longer viewed as unnecessary friction, and how partnering with customers can improve fraud detection, strengthen relationships, and prevent losses before money moves.
In this episode, you'll learn:
- Why scams require a completely different fraud prevention strategy than traditional account takeover.
- Why the customer often has the one piece of information banks cannot see: intent.
- How customer outreach helps prevent account takeover, check fraud, scams, and money mule activity.
- Why reaching out to customers is becoming a better customer service experience—not simply another security control.
- How financial institutions are building trusted communication channels with customers.
- Why fraud, AML, risk, technology, marketing, and customer-facing teams must work together to protect customers.
- How AI is changing both scam tactics and the way banks must respond.
- Why the future of fraud prevention is built on partnership, trust, and communication.
Key takeaway
The future of fraud prevention isn't simply about detecting suspicious transactions. It's about building trusted relationships with customers, giving them the confidence to make safer decisions, and creating a partnership where banks and customers work together to stop fraud before money moves.
About the Host
Ayelet Biger-Levin is the Founder and CEO of RangersAI and the host of Scam Rangers, a podcast exploring the human side of scams and the people working to protect consumers from financial and emotional harm.
Through her work at RangersAI and her leadership within the Global Anti-Scam Alliance and the Stop Scams Alliance, Ayelet partners with financial institutions, policymakers, and industry leaders to advance a more human-centered approach to scam prevention.
Follow Ayelet on LinkedIn to continue the conversation and learn more about the work being done to build scam resilience.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayelet-biger-levin/
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Transcript
Fraud Awareness and Organizational Mindset
00:00:01
Speaker
If we're not risk, fraud risk and risk just in general mindset, it it's not a successful outcome. outcome It has to be in our DNA and it can't just be something that we we talk about. It has to be something that we do. And I don't think that there's anyone across the organization that should not have this in the back of their minds because any transaction is susceptible to fraud. And so if you play a role in any of a transactional process related activity, it is your responsibility to provide that level of commitment to the customer.
Customer Outreach as a Trust-Building Service
00:00:41
Speaker
For years, the financial industry measured success by reducing friction. The fewer times the bank had to interrupt the customer, the better experience the customer had. But fraud has changed. Today's biggest threats don't just explode technology. They explode trust. And when that happens, the customer often holds the one piece of information that the bank can't see, the intent behind the transaction.
00:01:02
Speaker
That's leading to a fundamental shift in how banks think about fraud prevention. Instead of viewing customer outreach as friction, they're beginning to see it as a better form of customer service, a chance to build trust, gain certainty, and work alongside with customers to protect them. Sometimes that conversation confirms a suspicious check was never written, and sometimes it uncovers account takeover. Sometimes it reveals that a customer is being manipulated by a scammer, and just as importantly, oftentimes confirms that a transaction is perfectly legitimate.
00:01:31
Speaker
The conversation gives banks the context that they simply can't get from a transaction data alone. I truly believe that the future of fraud prevention isn't just smarter technology. It's creating trusted partnerships between financial institutions and their customers, helping people make safer decisions before money moves.
00:01:49
Speaker
Welcome to Scan.
Introduction to Scam Rangers Podcast
00:02:06
Speaker
to scam rangers a podcast about the human side of fraud and the people who are on a mission to protect us. I'm your host Ayelet Bigger Levine and I'm passionate about driving awareness and solving this problem.
00:02:26
Speaker
Before we jump into today's episode, I did want to talk about the name Scam Rangers and why I call my guest Scam Rangers. And i happened to attend a Gallup survey launch a few weeks ago, and one of the participants ah talking about scams and activity and policy with regards to scams. was Congressman Amon from Rhode Island. And he talked about the fact that just like forest rangers, and just like he actually um mentioned the famous Yogi the Bear talking about beware of fires. and then I suddenly felt like someone gets me because that's the whole point of scam rangers. It's just like a forest ranger guiding your customers to safety.
00:03:07
Speaker
So without further ado, today we have two Scam Rangers on the podcast, both from the banking industry. And I would love to welcome Kate Pundik and Julie Bogotanasak to our ah podcast today
Meet the Guests: Kate and Juliana
00:03:21
Speaker
to Scam Rangers. Welcome. Thank you.
00:03:23
Speaker
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure and what a lovely name to have. I'm proud to be given such a title. And I think in the day-to-day world of leading the strategy and fraud governance for Valley, it is definitely something that um stands out every single day as we look at identifying emerging scams and fraud risks. and conveying them to the rest of the bank and standing up solutions so that we could help ourselves and the community um amongst us to ah become more successful. Amazing. So let's actually really start with introduction. So maybe, Julie, you can introduce yourself and then Kate, tell us a little bit more more about your role at
Juliana's Role and the Convergence of Fraud and AML
00:04:06
Speaker
Valley.
00:04:06
Speaker
ah So my name is Juliana Bogutianowska. Thank you so much for having me join this podcast with you, Ayelet and Kate. I will definitely look into having Scam Rangers be on like a sticker if it's if it's not on a sticker yet. So I'm the BSA officer at Ocean First Bank. I oversee our AML sanctions and financial crimes compliance programs.
00:04:34
Speaker
I'll be transitioning very soon to a new role at Bankwell as their BSA officer overseeing their AML sanctions and fraud prevention programs. I've spent more than 16 years in fraud, AML, and financial crime prevention. And one of the biggest changes I've seen is the convergence of fraud and AML risk. So I'm i'm grateful to be on this ah podcast today with me too. Thank you.
Kate's Focus on Emerging Risks and AI
00:05:03
Speaker
So Kate, tell tell us a little bit more about your role. Sure. um Once again, thank you for having me here. I sit within the second line of fraud risk and governance strategy within Valley National Bank, um helping identify emerging risks and conveying those to the rest of the bank. I spent ah the majority of my career across the second and third line, um ranging from internal audit operational risk compliance and ah currently within fraud risk and
00:05:33
Speaker
It is definitely a pivotal time to be in this space to really make and break the fraudster in the sense of keeping on par, if not ahead of each. And in order to do so, it is pivotal for us to recognize where things are going, what roles AI and technology are playing in that space in order to really come out on top. So, We're going to dive into all of these.
Balancing Fraud Prevention with Customer Experience
00:06:00
Speaker
So let's start with, I think that I've spent also almost 20 years in fraud prevention, more from the technology side, creating solutions for financial institutions to combat fraud. And the biggest thing that we've always been talking about is how do we balance fraud? the customer experience with the security, right? The usability versus the cost of doing business and how much is the bank really willing to introduce friction friction into the process and always being as invisible as possible unless absolutely needed to to combat fraud. So I wanted to ask you with that lens, what has changed over the last five to 10 years, maybe generally in fraud and the approach that financial institutions take to
Building Trust Through Communication
00:06:44
Speaker
combat fraud? So Kate, let's start with you. Sure. I think there's been so much change, evolving change throughout the years. I think we have started with the least communication, the better, because we don't want to spoof and or create any sort of
00:07:01
Speaker
indication that we as an organization are are facing some sort of a fraud instance, right? And so the least amount of fraud related mentions to the outside customer, the better. Where that has changed and completely evolved is we need to partner up with our customers. We need to establish a rapport of communication. And really the beginning stages of that is through trust. It's conveying to our customers that we, the bank, are a trusted partner. And this is why you bank with us. And as a part of the service that we ah provide to you, is the fact that we could assure you that the funds that you hold with us can be protected. And those steps mean ah various communication flows. And um unfortunately, the fraudster understands this. And this is when the trust factor, right, and and telling between what is good and and bad as far as the messaging becomes a ah pivotal point. And I think it's not just a a one and done and it's not just transaction It is strategy. It is a movement and an ongoing conversation that needs to be had um and needs to be sort of built and an infrastructure needs to be created
Adapting Communication Strategies Against Fraudsters
00:08:20
Speaker
around it. And when we talked earlier, you said we're crawling when we should be running in this space. So what why do you feel that way? What do you mean by that? I think to stay ah ah ahead and stay in line, it means we very quickly need to adapt and and need to ah learn the ways of how to make that communication ah more trusted with our clients because fraudsters um are very organized. I mean, one thing that we we definitely see is a very well orchestrated communication um mechanism that has been put out. And for us, it is a matter of standing up something that is greater than that.
00:08:59
Speaker
Right. um So, Joanna, what do you see from BSA ah AML perspective, the change over last few years?
Collaboration Between Fraud and AML Teams
00:09:06
Speaker
And you talked about the convergence with fraud. So I'm sure that has a lot of input to that. But what generally are you seeing, especially as scams are becoming a huge problem and much bigger than they were in the past? Yeah, so historically, fraud was always viewed primarily as a that financial loss issue, while AML always focused on the regulatory compliance side. So today, those two worlds are increasingly overlapping.
00:09:35
Speaker
Criminals are using scams, mule accounts, synthetic identities, account takeovers in order to move illicit funds. It's requiring both the fraud and AML teams to work much more closely together. And the biggest challenge that we are seeing with customers is trust. Customers are being bombarded with phishing emails, spoofed phone calls, those ah fraudulent text messages.
00:10:05
Speaker
There's the fake websites, social media scams. So it's coming from all various angles and these communications are appearing legitimate. Many fraudsters can now convincingly impersonate bank employees government agencies, law enforcement agents, even family members. Last year, the FBI Internet Crime Report, it reported nearly $21 billion in losses. Individuals over the age of 60 reported 7.7 billion in losses. So as a result, customers are just unsure who to trust.
00:10:45
Speaker
Ironically, when a bank legitimately reaches out to protect them, some customers are hesitant to engage because they've been conditioned to believe that every communication may appear as a scam. So that's what I'm seeing. That's a huge challenge.
Strategic Customer Engagement in Fraud Detection
00:11:02
Speaker
um From a process perspective in that convergence of AML and fraud, what are what does that mean? Are there really different processes that you need to follow from that convergence perspective over that that that have changed it over the past few years? Yeah, you kind of have to think outside of the box and how to communicate with with our customers. So for years, the industry ah has focused on reducing friction and and limiting that customer contact whenever possible. But today we're realizing that strategic engagement with customers can actually improve both fraud detection and the customer experience as well. So when we contact
00:11:46
Speaker
ah customers regarding some type of anomaly or like unusual activity, we're often gaining information that technology alone cannot provide. Customers can explain the purpose of a transaction, identify whether they were being coached by someone through a payment or they could confirm whether activity is legitimate, right? So these conversations are providing valuable context that strengthen the second line's investigation while also helping protect the the customer as well.
00:12:23
Speaker
Kate, I wanted to ask you, to Juliana's point around ah the ability to reach out to customers to to confirm, how does that sit with, and and you've both taken this approach, this is kind of why I'm bouncing off and we'll we'll talk a little about that a lot more.
00:12:38
Speaker
The industry has tried to minimize customer interaction to reduce friction. So why and how is that changing? It's changing in that we recognize that a customer holds the information that we need. So that's the first point. And ah in order to get that, we need to create the trust that this is a channel that we will communicate with you through in order to validate specific actions that you're taking.
00:13:07
Speaker
Because us taking a guess into whether or not you've created this transaction are engaged in this sort of activity. We don't know. Right. And the source of truth is the customer. Right. And understanding from the customer what that um background looks like is the only way to do it. I think that the challenge of it all is with this many years of us training the customers not to respond to any communication, not to engage with this communication um is where we have an industry wide issue. Right. We we have an issue issue where we've coached them to do one thing, which is success. Stay away. We will not contact you. We will not communicate with you via this way. And so ignore it. And now we understand that in order for us to be successful and do this in a matter of of minutes, because that's what's necessary. Speed is is what matters in fraud.
00:14:07
Speaker
We must use this channel of communication in order to validate the transactions that you customer are doing.
00:14:16
Speaker
I want to pull two threads with you guys from what you said. The first thread is you said the customer has the data or the information that we need. And it it really brought me to think that one of the challenges is to understand intent, right? We we can't see that through the ah online banking system. We can only see what is happening, but we can't see the why.
00:14:37
Speaker
why am I creating this transaction? And if everything looks normal, it's my normal behavior, my normal pays, then it's we consider that fine. we We don't know, but we really don't need to know. But when there is an anomaly, then really understanding that why things happen will be really, really beneficial and helpful to and to understand if it's legitimate. um So I would love the AML lens on this as well. But when it comes to account takeover fraud,
00:15:03
Speaker
If there's a transaction that looks suspicious and then you can call the customer and say, you know, we'll talk about the challenges in communication. That's the second thread I wanted to pull. But you can call the customer and say, was this you? If the customer says yes, then game over. You know, it's all good. and And you can continue. That's the classic account takeover fraud verification. When it comes to scams... And there is manipulation involved. And then there is the guidance that the criminal has given the victim through the bank will contact you and ask these questions. That's another challenge. So how do you deal with that? So I look at it from a three tiered approach, right? One is you have the let's start with the scam. of It depends on where within the scam they are. And and typically the the amounts of of grooming, right, that the victim is going through has already enough detail not to provide us. And so we need to peel back the onion, if I can use that term to describe um us piecing together where they are and and why. But first, we need the indication that something is happening. So I think it varies depending on the scenario, to your point, in that it is either a scam, an account takeover, and or maybe a little a legitimate customer going through a normal transaction that we otherwise would have potentially swooped into the mix. Right. And so um those three scenarios, I think, is how I would look at it. And then depending on the stage of each, that's when we need to be creative in how we communicate. And it's a challenge because if we communicate um face to face, it's one interaction. If we communicate and there's a distance between us, it's very difficult to stand against the grooming that potentially has gone on and may have gone on for quite some time where we have been framed as, and by we, the banks, have been framed to the victim as a non-trusted source. And that becomes the challenge. So in the five, 10-minute interaction that we get to have with the victim, it is quite impossible or very difficult for us to convince them otherwise. or even for us to understand how deep this is and transactionally, how to tell apart illegitimate transaction from ah one that potentially is is a part of the scam that's happening.
00:17:26
Speaker
So how are you using, and this is to both of you, how are you using these, you talked about the fact, Julie, that you're reaching out now to customers to verify, to understand intents, to understand the story, to get that information that they have that we can't see through the systems.
Introduction of Digital Platforms for Real-Time Fraud Prevention
00:17:43
Speaker
Tell me a little bit about how you decided to take that approach and what are the pieces of data that you're trying to collect through that approach? So one of the initiatives that we're particularly proud is implementing digital customer outreach platform called Refined Intelligence at Ocean First Bank. We did recognize that
00:18:05
Speaker
Those traditional investigations, they often involved just multiple phone calls, having ah the branches be our middlemen between the second line and and the customer. um you You have multiple voice manholes. There's delays in obtaining information from the customers. So in many financial crime scenarios, time is very critical. So the faster that we understand what is happening with the customer, with the transaction, the faster we could protect the customer and make those informed decisions on whether to clear a transaction or whether to stop a transaction so this way the customer is not at a loss. So this platform, it does allow us to digitally engage with our customers ah whenever there's those anomalies that we identify in order to collect information quickly through a very secure customer-friendly process. And it's it's a really positive customer experience. We've been getting faster feedback from the customer. We're validating any unusual transactions in real time. We're identifying those potential scams, ah fraud attempts much early on, especially in ah in the day for those daily alerts that are that are coming through. And we're improving the customer experience as well.
00:19:39
Speaker
So can you give me some examples maybe that would be really, really helpful to understand? Maybe some specific scenarios of reach outs that have helped you identify situations. Yeah, so there has been ah scenarios where a customer's account, there is a account tape over. They were a victim of check fraud. And there was a, for example, a $50,000 check. that came through in clearing. It was made payable to a individual.
00:20:11
Speaker
We noticed that this is not their normal transaction that would that would come through. So through this platform, we're communicating with with the customer and they have responded you know saying, oh, i never I never wrote this check.
00:20:28
Speaker
Please return it And it's fraud. So there you go. a A check is now being prevented and it's saving the bank and from any losses and and also the customer as well. So that's just one example.
00:20:43
Speaker
So what did you do before you use Refine, though? So before it would be a email that would be sent to the branch, the branch will have to call the customer, try to get them on the phone. Sometimes it just goes straight to voicemail. And there were also times when you can't get hold of the customer at all. So this is just a quicker way to communicate because we're we're communicating directly to a customer. where it's you know it's not that traditional phone call. we've We've found that there's a faster way to communicate, whether it's through text message or email. And it ah it has really helped just the customer engagement and communication.
00:21:30
Speaker
That's really interesting. And yeah, the the the medium of communication really makes a difference, apparently, for customers. So Kate, do you have um additional examples maybe from your experience on ah cases that were prevented, you be it accounting or fraud or scams
Improving Trust via Digital Communication Channels
00:21:47
Speaker
even? So have i not sure if we could correlate it to scams per se, but on ah the Czech side, definitely echo in what we also see on our end. And um I think just to level set across what we see in not the banking industry, but overall communication ah from a customer approach, right? If we are to look at airlines and and other ways of merchants communicating with us, the customer, it is through this channel of text, email, and all are verified, right? As ah as a customer, I trust that this communication is is in fact coming from um The merchants, right, ah whichever it may be.
00:22:33
Speaker
and i think the opportunity that really exists here for banks is one that hasn't really been tapped into. And and through Refine, I think, is is where we see that opportunity unfold. To level set and and get on board with the same level of communication that otherwise takes place. I think in the banking industry, again, going back to our original point of we've always shied away from engaging in this conversation with the customer. And I think us coming to terms that communication is skewed. key and in fact our strength if we do it right um in how we build the trust, how we engage with the customer because it is only it's almost like ah a lock and key type of a combination where we have one piece of information and the customer has another and only when we meet at that juncture can we
00:23:22
Speaker
come out with a value product, which is, yes, this is a transaction that I want to engage with and I'm confident in. And I think it's just going to sort of enhance um and and build on top of that is how we sort of stay on top of
00:23:43
Speaker
Before we get back to the conversation, I wanted to share something we believe deeply at Rangers AI. The future of fraud prevention isn't just about detecting suspicious transactions. It's about giving people the confidence to make safer decisions before money moves.
00:23:57
Speaker
Every day, customers receive texts, emails, phone calls, and messages that look legitimate. By the time the transaction reaches the bank, the customer may already have been manipulated.
00:24:08
Speaker
And that's why we built ScamRanger. ScamRanger helps people evaluate digital communications in real time, understand the warning signs of scams, and know what to do next. It empowers customers to make in important decisions while giving financial institutions another layer of insight and protection. Because the strongest defense against scams isn't just better technology. It's building scam resilience, one decision at a time.
00:24:31
Speaker
Now, let's get back into the conversation.
00:24:37
Speaker
The notion that we have to partner with our customers to protect them, I think, is something that has changed or is is newer. And I think it's really, really critical to to think
Empowering Customers Against Scams
00:24:49
Speaker
about that. We can't, especially if they're being targeted by criminals that are manipulating them, um and we need to empower them. And we need to leverage that information that they have and the the notion of of intent and and what and the why behind their actions or behind the criminal's actions that are are not our customers. so So really partnering with the customers, I think, is something that the industry has started to do and and through this experience as well.
00:25:16
Speaker
How are customers perceiving these communications? How is that impacting the relationship with the bank? Because now it is the friction that we are so afraid of all these years where we're actually using friction to bet. Well, not not intentionally to create friction, but to understand what's happening. So how are customers taking that?
00:25:34
Speaker
I was so pleasantly surprised. Right. and And I think the good news is that they are absolutely on board with the concept. And and as we scale and grow this communication method, um at least for us, I am so pleasantly surprised in the numbers that we're seeing. We're seeing more than 90 percent of customers accepting this level of communication, which is incredible news, right? It's exactly what um we've envisioned. And I think through the use case that we we have, it's proven itself in that we can build on this. We can very much use this as an opportunity of maintaining that as ah an effective communication channel. And I would echo with Kate on that as well. We're really seeing high numbers of customer interaction through this digital mechanism.
00:26:29
Speaker
there's ah So customers are providing context that transaction data alone cannot reveal. There's the faster resolution. customers Potential account takeovers, check fraud incidents, or scam attempts can can be addressed immediately in in more of a real-time delivery. And then that customer trust aspect. So customers are appreciating, knowing that the bank is actively trying to protect them. So many customers have been telling us that they're grateful that someone... has reached out before a loss is is occurring. So those interactions are just helping build that confidence time over time and just strengthening the the banking relationship with with the customer.
00:27:18
Speaker
And maybe if you can give a few more examples of, you I think you gave the one with the check fraud. what are What are the kind of reach outs that, what are the questions that customers are being asked besides, you know, have have you created this check or or have you issued this check? What other questions are you asking them to understand if this is legitimate or not?
00:27:39
Speaker
So from a from an AML perspective, we're doing more of a deeper dive, um looking into cash transactions, just getting the source of funds because they may be legitimate, whether they're receiving these funds from a family member. It was a graduation present or they sold a house. Just knowing this information is very, very helpful for for the second line. And just knowing from start to finish and knowing the customer ah more because at the end of the day, it's legitimate activity. So the faster feedback we are receiving, on then the quicker and ah more effective and efficient our team can be. So I'm hearing both outgoing funds, but also incoming funds. So that goes to also mule account detection potentially and other activities like that, that, you know, by asking the questions, you can and better understand the nature.
00:28:38
Speaker
yeah I have a part-time work from home job that I started two weeks ago and I'm getting $600 hour. But those parts are tricky, I think, as well. So, you know, with the guidance that they might be getting. So how do we ensure that the communications are i clean in terms of there's no guidance behind asking? You know, I think my question how do we ensure that we ask the right questions to get the information that we need? And so we're not manipulated by the customer if it's illegitimate.
00:29:11
Speaker
but both from an AML perspective, but also from a scam perspective, if someone is manipulating the customer. I think that's the toughest point and one that doesn't have a very clear guidebook.
00:29:24
Speaker
it it It can't, right? Because every case to some degree varies. But I think what we can do is, A, understand, is this truly a victim, a scam victim? And from there, start to understand How embedded is the scam?
00:29:42
Speaker
How many transactions, right? If this is an item that is being flagged as potentially an item of concern, that may be the starting point. Or maybe we need to go back some time and understand that the starting point may have happened months prior and what might be happening. So I think it's with a very empathetic mindset, understanding what it looks like, because we're I'm not sure that the the strategy is simply to ask whether or not ah it's a legitimate transaction because of that point. Yes, it is That's not ah you know ah a hard answer to to get.
00:30:20
Speaker
I think it's important to understand whether or not it's a scam to then be able to probe more. And to add to that, the just the customer can be engaging in with with the fraudster. They may know, they may not know. So they may be kind of guided on how to answer two particular questions. So...
00:30:43
Speaker
They may be lying to us, but that's where that human in the loop is very important, right? to understand the the customer, to understand the the transactions. And sometimes at the end of the day, it's what do we feel at the pit of our stomach? I think at the end of the day, it's one point of input. It's not everything, right? It's it's one point of input that is very helpful, but it's it's the collection of risk ah indicators and factors that you will take into consideration to to conclude how to proceed with this case. And and what I was going to say is ah it's a layered approach, right? That's exactly how it needs to be approached. And there is no guidebook. There is no manual for what it is, but it's create a trusted communication source.
00:31:34
Speaker
Teach it over time to your customer. have them trust this as a method of communication that you take with them. And then when certain flags are identified along the way, you internally know how to guide it, right? You first need to understand, is this a A victim, is this a first party fraud, a mule account? um If a victim, is it a simple transactional victim type of a case where with the amount of check fraud that we have that's plaguing us, right, in the sense of of what it is, it may be a one and done, meaning, ah you know, a customer puts their check in the mail, it gets stolen, it gets compromised. It's a one and done. It's not, there's not much more to it than just this. But that customer needs to know that this is a trusted way of communication. i The same way that maybe you deploy a more layered approach in how you communicate with a victim of a scam. And depending on that scam, whether it's a ah business email compromise, right, that's a scam and and it may... take a different shape where, you know, you by simply asking customer, did you contact the vendor that you're working with to make this payment is enough for you to pierce through that.
00:32:54
Speaker
It may be a little bit more involved in that. It's a romance scam that, hey, this is a person that I love. How dare I even think of the concept? So I think it just it depends. And, you know, it's As much as we need to train and ah build the the trusted communication externally, the same applies internally, right? We need to understand what communication needs to be deployed when in order to get the specific details that are needed in order to piece together the puzzle that we're solving through our lens. And and whether or not we deploy empathy or we need to deploy something more stricter, right, I think is also an important measure. So... um
00:33:37
Speaker
A lot of things at play, but I think if isolating each one, it becomes a manageable concept.
00:33:47
Speaker
So we spent a while without mentioning ai but it's time. So how has the use of AI by criminals that we know has supercharged their operation, has increased their communication ability, has increased their ah their volume?
00:34:06
Speaker
How has that impacted your processes with regards to um you know both communications, but really building that that conversation with customers to protect them? Yeah. So a AI is accelerating fraud in two important ways to better you know understand. So one is on the scale aspect. So criminals can launch ah attacks against thousands of individuals simultaneously while continuously testing new social engineering tactics and messaging.
00:34:43
Speaker
The second is sophistication. ah AI is enabling to personalize these scams based on customer responses in real time, ah these scams are becoming even more convincing, more targeted, and much more difficult to to identify. So this means that for banks,
00:35:04
Speaker
We cannot rely solely on the traditional transaction monitoring system. We must combine technology, and this can be technology from and learning more on cybersecurity, working very closely with information security, with fraud, with AML.
00:35:23
Speaker
Then you have the combination also the customer education and just proactively engaging and staying ahead as well. think a I AI has lowered the barrier to entry for fraudsters, right? The what how and and who we define as a fraudster is a question, right? And I think we we talked about how do you define one? I think AI just sort of enables that so much more. um i think with that said, e for us, it means...
00:35:56
Speaker
our speed needs to accelerate a lot in order to keep up. And it's keeping up and in various ways. It's not solely transactional is how we need to look at things. It's an overall layered approach. It's behavioral. It's um transactional. It's what's happening in the industry, staying current with emerging threats and and how are different techniques deployed. That together with our theme here, which is communication, is is pivotal because we alone cannot fall for for what that is.
00:36:31
Speaker
And only collectively, in a very well-organized way, can we get to a positive outcome. Yeah, absolutely. And and but I think that really ties to the point earlier, like we need to run and and get ahead of this. I wanted to ask another question about ah span of control, maybe
Expanding Fraud Protection Roles Across Departments
00:36:49
Speaker
internally. So ah traditionally, fraud, AML, ah stayed within the designated teams. But now we're talking about customer communication. So I'm sure you had to go broader within your organizations to get other teams involved in this protection. So how do you see the evolution of, and and it's been said on this podcast many times that Fraud protection or scam prevention is the new know customer success or the new customer service. How is the protection of customers evolved beyond fraud and and and and AML and which other teams in their organization are now involved in protecting customers?
00:37:29
Speaker
I think for where it shows up within our organization is first and foremost, those that are client facing. It's a commitment that we make to each and every one of our customers. It's embedded in our model. It's embedded in us. And I think we if we're not risk, fraud risk and risk just in general mindset, it it's not a successful outcome.
00:37:52
Speaker
It has to be in our DNA and it can't just be something that we we talk about. it It has to be something that we do. And I don't think that there's anyone across the organization that should not have this in the back of their minds because any transaction is susceptible to fraud. And so if you play a role in any of a transactional process related activity, it is your responsibility to provide that level of commitment to the customer. Yeah, and Juliana, from her perspective, how were you able to open up and really get more teams involved in this? And kind of, I don't know if you needed to convince or they were on board, but given that this is a a trust issue that we're dealing with the desire to go out and communicate more with customers,
00:38:40
Speaker
How have you done that within your organization who's involved and how are you planning to do that when you move over to the new one? So how I've originally put the kind of um the table together was, OK, I'm going to need support from our ah technology team in order to onboard this this vendor, make sure that all the transactions and alerts are flowing into you know this this platform, just getting their their support. The first line definitely included them and i I will include them. for any type of initiative that I may be implementing in in my department. Getting their buy-in and support and just seeing the value of this type of platform and how it can be just moving. for that customer experience that was ah very positive. And of course, our BSA department, our fraud department, risk management, marketing compliance as well, just to make sure that these types of communications were following regulations as well.
00:39:49
Speaker
So that has been very helpful. Traditionally, you know, fraud and and AML investigation teams, we have operated in separate silos. However, we're increasingly seeing the same customer behaviors, risks,
00:40:07
Speaker
and criminal methodologies ah that are being reviewed by by multiple teams. It could be fraud. AML could be the first line, right? Because they're the they're the first line line of defense. They'll detect something probably a lot quicker than the second line. So whether we're investigating a scam victim, money mule, or some type of other suspicious activity, the common objective is understanding the intent behind the transaction.
00:40:38
Speaker
So both areas, fraud and AML investigations team, we're trying to answer many of the same questions. What is the purpose of the transaction? Is the customer acting independently? Is the customer being manipulated or coached?
00:40:55
Speaker
Is the account being used to move illicit funds? So in many cases, the distinction between the victim and the participant is not immediately clear. But just having that customer engagement is often providing the information needed to make that final determination and to help both investigation teams.
00:41:17
Speaker
So to be able to reach out to the customer and to create this partnership with the customer, we really need to involve many more teams. You mentioned beyond this the standard, the classic fraud, AML, and even FirstLine, who have traditionally been involved. It's marketing and and it's other teams to be able to reach out to the customer because they need to know the touch points and the the the product teams, etc. So it sounds like it's much harder to get that, you know, to implement solutions that are partnering with the customer in a way that, you know, the customer is aware. so that friction introduction. But it also sounds like it's really worth it. It's so hard.
00:41:55
Speaker
ah at the end, because all of these different departments, we we're working together. And the ultimate goal is to protect the customer at the end of the day, but it's also to protect the bank as well. So if we're all working together in a unified approach, we could we could get to that end result much quicker to understand the customer and the transaction.
00:42:20
Speaker
Kate, any thoughts on that? Because one of the things that I'm thinking is it's really involving them. But what parts do we need to convince marketing or the product team in order to get that communication going?
00:42:33
Speaker
I think um historically it has never been top of mind to them or they never understood what's at stake. And I think ah we understand what's at stake when you quantify what type of losses are being experienced both by the bank and by the customer and putting things into perspective and sharing that level of information, I think, has been a very successful way that I've been able to convey the message and that here's what it looks like and feels like for the customer, for us.
00:43:05
Speaker
um And it makes it real. I think being vague and explaining the passion that I and or you know others have is is all great. And I think it's necessary. But I think where it becomes a moment of a tangible output is when you convey it through insights and and metrics.
00:43:24
Speaker
And to add to that, so just showing the potential results that it's always been prior, just that traditional banking relationship, calling the customer, communicating, you know, by phone or by mail, or when the customer comes to the branch. But now with technology emerging, we need to have more of a real time communication with the customer We're not removing the first line out of this equation.
00:43:57
Speaker
They're included. ah Any type of communication that is sent out to customers, they're looped in because sometimes there's customers who don't trust this delivery channel.
00:44:10
Speaker
They will call either the branch or they'll call the customer care center wanting to know if this line of communication is legitimate or if it's a phishing attempt. So we have those type of customers as well, but we've been seeing really positive results and so positive that we've seen the fastest response come in within seconds.
00:44:35
Speaker
Whereas the traditional communication, you would have to call the customer a few times, leave a message, you know, of a voicemail, and then you may not get an answer for at least a couple of days, sometime weeks. So this type of platform has definitely been very positive for for the bank.
00:45:02
Speaker
Well, I wanted to thank you so much, both of you, for sharing your insights, for talking about um how we can partner with our customers to drive you know better protection for them and for the financial institution. and So thank you so much for everything today and for being guests on ScamRangers. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having