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From Diplomacy to the Frontlines: Fighting Asia’s Scam Compounds, A conversation with Nils Mueller, Director, North American Chapter Global Anti-Scam Alliance
186 Plays6 days ago
In this episode of Scam Rangers, Ayelet Biger-Levin speaks with Nils Mueller, Director of the North America Chapter of the Global Anti-Scam Alliance and former USAID Foreign Service Officer.
Nils shares his unique path into the world of scam prevention after spending more than two decades working in international development and governance. During his time in Southeast Asia, he witnessed the rapid rise of industrial-scale scam operations run from organized crime compounds that target victims around the world.
Together, Ayelet and Nils discuss how these scam compounds emerged, the human trafficking behind many of these operations, and why online scams have become a national security issue for governments. They also explore how global cooperation between governments, civil society, and the private sector can help disrupt these networks and protect consumers.
Topics Covered
- How scam compounds in Southeast Asia evolved from casino infrastructure into large-scale global fraud operations
- The human trafficking behind many scam operations and how workers are recruited into these compounds
- Why scams have become a national security and economic threat, costing billions each year
- The role of international collaboration, sanctions, and law enforcement in disrupting organized scam networks
- How the Global Anti-Scam Alliance is bringing together governments, companies, and advocates to coordinate the fight against scams
About the Guest
Nils Mueller is the Director of the North America Chapter of the Global Anti-Scam Alliance and a former Foreign Service Officer with USAID. Over a 20-year career, he worked across Africa and Southeast Asia on governance, anti-corruption, and development initiatives.
During his posting in Thailand, Nils became deeply involved in understanding and addressing the rise of scam compounds and the human trafficking networks connected to them.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nils-m-mueller/
About the Host
Ayelet Biger-Levin is the Founder and CEO of RangersAI and the host of Scam Rangers, a podcast exploring the human side of scams and the people working to protect consumers from financial and emotional harm.
Through her work at RangersAI and her leadership within the Global Anti-Scam Alliance, Ayelet partners with financial institutions, policymakers, and advocates to elevate scam prevention beyond controls and technology toward trust-based, customer-centric protection.
Be sure to follow her on LinkedIn and reach out to learn about her additional activities in this space:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayelet-biger-levin/
RangersAI: https://www.rangersai.com/
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Transcript
Understanding Scam Operations
00:00:02
Speaker
Because if we actually want to understand how the scam compounds operate, what technology are they using? What tactics are they using? Who are they targeting? Who's behind it? Who's benefiting from it? Who's coming and showing up and managing these things from behind the scenes? The people who have the most insight into this, of course, are the victims themselves who come out of those scam compounds.
00:00:21
Speaker
So the more we're able to capture that information in a systematic, structured way of what is going on in these compounds and and with these transnational organized crime initiatives, the better we'll be able to respond.
Introducing Niels Mueller
00:00:36
Speaker
So I'm very, very excited to host today's scam ranger on the podcast. Our today's scam ranger is someone who really comes from a different background, I think, from everyone else we had on the podcast in the past. Niels Mueller from Global Anti-Scam Alliance, a director of the North America chapter of the Global Anti-Scam Alliance. And um I can't wait to dive into the conversation.
00:01:05
Speaker
inside of fraud and the people who are on a mission to protect us. I'm your host Ayelet Bigger Levine and I'm passionate about driving awareness and solving this problem.
00:01:21
Speaker
Niels, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much, Ayelet. It's great to be here. Long-time listener, first-time participant. And it's wonderful to be able to have this conversation and be part of your podcast enterprise.
Niels' Career and Discoveries
00:01:35
Speaker
Let's dive in. so Some of our listeners might know you if they've been following the Global Anti-Scam Alliance and the conference. You were not only presenting at the conference, but you actually led the conference. And we'll talk a little bit about your work at the Global Anti-Scam Alliance. But actually, the reason I wanted to have you on and share your experience is the work that you've done before you joined Global Anti-Scam Alliance. So you have spent more than 20 years at USAID, including yours in Southeast Asia.
00:02:05
Speaker
And first, I would love to hear about your background, your career, and we'll talk about how it ties to scams in just a bit. Great. Yeah. So that's right. I got into the scam fighting world, perhaps through a somewhat unusual way, given the the folks that tend to find themselves in this space. But for me, like you said, I had a career ah with the U.S. Foreign Service, the American Foreign Service, as a foreign service officer with USAID for more than 20 years. And that took me all over the world. it was wonderful experience working across Africa, in many countries across the continent, and most recently spending four years in Bangkok, Thailand, and focusing on foreign assistance and development and diplomacy work in Southeast Asia. And so the issues that we started to deal with in Southeast Asia, when we looked at the landscape, steered me more and more towards the burgeoning scamming industry. And so it was a real discovery for me of a very specific, but massive and under, not well understood business model and phenomenon that was impacting so
Scams and National Security
00:03:16
Speaker
many people's lives. And so
00:03:17
Speaker
So that's kind of where I ended up in in my the the last few years of my time at USAID before the agency was it was essentially dismantled. So the work that I did over the course of my career focused on strengthening institutions of governance. it focused on combating corruption um and aligned with our foreign policy priorities of creating stable, prosperous countries that are allied with us and that partnered with us in other ways that were advantageous to our national interests. And so that was what was at the core of what I was doing.
00:03:51
Speaker
So that's really interesting. And I have a burning question to ask you about national security and scam compounds in Southeast Asia. But before that, most of your work before you arrived in Bangkok was around ah driving democracies, work against authoritarian governments, are promoting really democracy and and what we consider in the US you know involving the people and not having one ruler take advantage of of their people. How did that work impact, you know, your arrival and and feel of the landscape in Southeast Asia? And, you know, you sat in Bangkok, but but it I'm sure it was across the the region, right? That's right. Yeah. So, i you know, look, a lot of the, again, the the work that we did in the democracy, human rights and governance space was really about advancing our national interest because there was you know we had empirical data that that demonstrated that our investment in working with our partner countries to strengthen their democratic institutions, to make them more stable and rights-respecting, made them more prosperous, made them better partners for us as we pursued our economic and security interests around the world. So so we firmly believed that there was a clear alliance between the work we were doing in that space and ensuring that we were helping Americans, helping American businesses, helping American citizens. And so, yeah, we can get into that very clear connection between the homeland in the U.S. and our work in Southeast Asia.
00:05:26
Speaker
But I did spend a lot of time focusing on ah trying to build out our our approach in the foreign assistant space to counter authoritarianism. And what we focused on were the tactics of authoritarianism that disadvantaged the welfare of people in a country ah to the advantage of an oligarchic elite that um that stifled growth that led to less wealth and stability over time. And that was what drove our work. and And so when I got my posting my position in Southeast Asia and Bangkok, um that was the mandate. as is we had I had started um the Countering Authoritarianism team within USAID headquarters. And what we wanted to do was, the pitch I made was, let me let me go road test this. Let's go out to the field. Let's see in Southeast Asia where there are a number of countries where the governance is certainly more towards the authoritarian and oligarchic flavor And let's see what kind of programming we can use to try to counter some of those initiatives and help the democratic initiatives and the democratic momentum that that exists in all these countries and try to strengthen those connections with with us and with um and with like-minded countries and and networks around the
Scam Compounds and COVID-19
00:06:40
Speaker
world. And I definitely think that the scam compounds and the construct and the structure both financially and how they're managed is a manifestation of that oligarchy and and its worst form, really. How did you find when you landed there, started your work and learned about this phenomena? Where did you meet it? I would say first. And then how did you define next steps around around your learnings there?
00:07:06
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. So um what I started to see and recall, I was in Thailand from 2021 to 2025, which is really when this phenomenon of the scam compound business model exploded. It really took off. And that was fueled by the COVID years, right? So that was fueled by these transnational organized crime groups that had previously been running casinos across Southeast Asia And we're focused on really Chinese tourists coming to countries like Cambodia, Laos, and to some extent Myanmar as well, to gamble, to um do things that they couldn't do in China because of the rules there. So there's a whole industry that was supported by that tourism and that like in many countries, when there's gambling involved, organized crime is behind a lot of that. So that's certainly not unique. But what happened was with the lockdown of Chinese citizens during COVID, they weren't able to travel. So you had this infrastructure across Southeast Asia that wasn't that that needed to be used in some form and that ah that now was not generating income for the folks that had invested in those. So they looked at ah they pivoted to online gambling, which they did some of, but it wasn't as lucrative, of course, as the in-person stuff. And I think that it's important to note here that it's not just...
00:08:22
Speaker
online gambling, but a lot of trafficking elements that come with that, right? So trafficking of humans, trafficking for sex work, trafficking of wildlife, ah drug trafficking, all those networks of ah those illicit networks are all coalesced in these centers that become kind of this, ah ah the the escapism and and not to throw Las Vegas under the bus, but the Las Vegas of Southeast Asia, where kind of back in the day, how Las Vegas used to be, i don't know what it's like today. But I'm sure some of that still happens. but is is Unfortunately, yes. Yeah. so yeah
00:08:57
Speaker
So look, we what we saw was all of a sudden these compounds, what they used to be casinos, turned their attention to online scam because they realized quite quickly that this was an incredibly lucrative market and an incredibly untapped business opportunity. And so they use their tools and skills and networks to get you know to get really into the scamming business. um And so that's what that's what we watched happen all around us when when I first started working in Bangkok.
00:09:30
Speaker
Now, the the entry points there are we had programs around the world, but certainly in Southeast Asia, that that I oversaw, my office oversaw, which were countering human trafficking programs. And that's something that the U.S. government invests in around the world. Some of that still is happening, but not to the extent that it was previously, of course.
00:09:47
Speaker
And so the the trafficking work that we saw, which used to be focused on poorer migrant labors coming from countries around Thailand to look for better jobs in richer countries and in Southeast Asia, um all of a sudden we were seeing a completely new human trafficking pattern.
00:10:03
Speaker
And this was well-educated, multilingual, mostly English-speaking eventually, targets who were being recruited through fake job advertisements to take jobs in Southeast Asia with promises of really high wages that were much better than what they could get back home. And so you saw a lot of people from across Asia, Malaysia, Philippines, South Asia, Nepal, Bangladesh, India, and East Africa, especially a lot from Uganda, Kenya, Ethiopia, the folks from all over the world, but especially those areas that were attracted to these jobs, and then they were trafficked into these scam compounds and forced to scam other people. And so that's where we started to kind of learn and unpack and see the horrors of what this business really is.
00:10:53
Speaker
So describe your work in particular. So how did you learn about this? And what did you know? I know, I remember articles started to pop up from ProPublica in 2023. But I think you're kind of in there in the weeds. So how did you learn about it? what What were your sources of information? Did you visit the compounds? How how did your organization actually act in that space? Yeah, so we we did a lot. So a lot of our work supported both the the Thai government and their systems and processes for treating, you know, basically helping victims of trafficking.
00:11:28
Speaker
So in our work with the Thai government at the provincial level, the national level, we we would visit the victims the victims of trafficking centers. We would talk to the Thai officials that are at the front lines that are processing people that are coming across the border. And weve we' fought we supported, we funded a number of small organizations that were really on the front lines of supporting victims um that operated shelters, that provided food and and and medical help to people that were coming out of these scam compounds in just terrible, terrible condition, having been beaten, abused, tortured in many cases, ah severely injured. And so we just started to hear these stories from the people that are on the front lines in these provinces and that we would go and we would
Victims' Insights and US Response
00:12:10
Speaker
talk. And and as we got deeper into the stories, you know we connected with others that were already doing great work in this space, including colleagues at USIP, Institute for Peace. And so you know, shout out to some of those people, Jason Tower, people at the um
00:12:27
Speaker
Global Initiative Against Transnational Organized Crime, that we're looking at this, and the human rights and journalist community in Bangkok and across the region that was starting to really surface these stories, report on it.
00:12:39
Speaker
And so what we said as USAID, as the US s government, as part of the embassy there in Bangkok is, hey, we got to do more to support these efforts. like this is This is crazy what's happening. like Honestly. The stories we heard were horrifying. and And so we couldn't just stand by. What we're there to do is to partner with ah folks in the government and in civil society and in the international organizations to find solutions and and alleviate the problem. And so we slowly began to make the connection with what was happening and what we needed to be investing in. So at what point did you realize that scam operations were not just criminal enterprises with horrible things happening, but were part of transnational organized crime that had national security implications on the U.S.? Yeah. And so, again, we were working as we got into this space. and And so we ended up pivoting our programming on on the human trafficking programs that we managed. And then we also created, designed a network of local Southeast Asian journalists, right? Investigative journalists across Southeast Asia with a focus on transnational organized crime and corruption. And that was in the foundational case for that network was, of course, the scam compound.
00:13:49
Speaker
And we said, do we need more information. We need better information. We need to understand what's happening here. Who's behind it? How's it being run? Who's benefiting from it? Et cetera. We know that, you know, look, these networks aren't new. So so it's not like we were uncovering something that hadn't been in place before, but it was evolving and changing the business model was was was expanding. and targeting our homeland more closely. And so especially the targeting our homeland piece, we we collaborated with our um colleagues in the interagency at the embassy and in the region, including our colleagues in the law enforcement agencies and other parts of the government who are tracking
Shift to Western Markets
00:14:24
Speaker
these things, right? So colleagues in the DEA and the DOJ, FBI. So, you know, you name a three-letter agency and And everyone was looking at different pieces of this. And so we worked with that group to look at how, from a forward assistance perspective, we could be a force multiplier. We could help solve some of the the challenges. um So it was clear, you know once we started to understand and and we heard the stories of there was a transition,
00:14:50
Speaker
right As the the Chinese government began to crack down more on these scam compounds, the scam companies, the scam bosses learned quite quickly that that a there was less friction in targeting Western markets.
00:15:03
Speaker
There was less friction in targeting Americans. And so it was good that that the Chinese government was cracking down and say, hey, stop scamming our citizens. But the unfortunate impact of that is they started scamming our citizens more. So what can we learn from authoritarian governments about this, about handling scams? Well, that's a great question. and i think that there's a lot to learn from the way that China has handled this. But let's be honest, we're not going to we're not going to like a lot of the steps that they took. And and it's also, we can't do um a lot of the things that they did, which is directly putting in their security forces into countries like Myanmar and physically shutting down compounds. And it's just not something that we're going to have boots on the ground to do. It's not our neighborhood. It's not our backyard. But what they have been doing is arresting en masse. We have no transparency or visibility on what happens to those victims coming out of the scam compounds. You know, are they treated as victims? Are they treated as criminals? We don't know. But what we do know is that they make an example out of some people and recent news, of course, highlighting that there were 11 people that the Chinese government just executed for scamming in Myanmar for for being one of the families that perpetuated this this scamming business. and So again, if you're an authoritarian government where you can make these decisions from on high without a lot of complexity, know I'm oversimplifying what the Chinese system is. um It certainly gives you advantages of speed and coordination, but that is not our system. And I don't think we should aspire to that system just because it's more efficient. No, of course. Not on scammers, of course. Yeah. So that is our challenge is how do we do this within our culture, our systems, our um and our principles? So they shifted to targeting Western countries with the scamming operations. And we've seen over the last few years, all the text messages that we've been receiving, all the cryptocurrency investment groups that we've been asked to join on WhatsApp, all, you know, they are...
00:16:59
Speaker
all these channels and they're really very flexible with the scam. So on the other side of every scam could be a scam victim, sorry, a human trafficking victim who was coerced into this, or could be people who are voluntarily doing so to get money. But this is a a very, very well-organized criminal organization or multiple organizations. And At your time there, I think maybe towards the end of your time there, there was ah some or during your time there was tension between Thailand and Cambodia.
Geopolitical Tensions and Scams
00:17:33
Speaker
How was that, if at all, connected to or impacting the scam compounds in your work there? Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, so that that dynamic, so that was that was after I left. I left in in June of 2025. And there's a longstanding border dispute between Cambodia and Thailand and domestic politics in both those countries all of a sudden brought that to the fore. And then we have this kind of unprecedented geopolitical fray and conflict that that was a border conflict, but where the ties, knowing where the Cambodian sensitive points were, started targeting scam compounds as part of the conflict. And so obviously that raises all kinds of alarms, but it's also fascinating just observation in terms of it was pretty clear that that there were parts of the Thai government that they knew quite clearly what was going on. And we knew that from, you know of course, behind the scenes as well, but and were willing to act on it publicly and And you saw um some, you know, the one a a major Cambodian kingpin in this space and very connected to the leadership who was charged by the Thai government and assets seized and this kind of thing. And I think it's important to state that the work of the U.S. government and our allies in going after a major transnational organized crime groups like the Prince Group. And of course, you know, the indictment and the sanctions that were placed down on them by our Treasury Department. and other agencies ah collaborating with them, uh, very clearly articulated this business model. And I mean, I recommend folks to, to really track down that indictment of the Prince group by the treasury department and read it. And that they did just a fantastic job of outlining all the criming that was happening, all the impacts that they were inflicting upon the rest of the world and especially us. And so that led to the seizure of, well, there were $15 billion dollars in Bitcoin that were seized at some point. And that was wrapped up in this, uh, law enforcement initiative.
Scam Strategies and Economic Impact
00:19:29
Speaker
So um I think that that is something we hadn't seen before, where a geopolitical kinetic conflict started to target and include scamming compounds and businesses as frontline targets to create pressure on the other side to seed.
00:19:50
Speaker
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00:20:12
Speaker
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00:20:22
Speaker
I wanted to ask you, you said earlier something about the fact that this is, you know, we can't act like China and I'm not advocating for that. But, you know, we do know that the impact of scams on U.S. citizens' residents is significant. I think there are different estimates out there. One of them, I think one of the recent ones, was talking about the FTC is talking about an estimated number of $195 billion dollars stolen from Americans in 2024.
00:20:50
Speaker
Isn't this a boots on the ground type situation for the US government? This is really impacting our economy. Money is going out to foreign countries, not necessarily our allies. When does it become a situation that the US government needs to act in a sense of urgency? Well, look, I think that hopefully we've learned that there are limitations to to our sending boots on the ground in countries that are far away. And in fact, specifically in Southeast Asia, which has happened before, and that didn't end up going very well. So I think there's a lot more that we can do. I don't think sending American troops into the field is the answer there because that and
00:21:30
Speaker
um end up causing more problems than solving them. Yeah, but there are other ways like economical sanctions and you know other ways to put some pressure. Yeah.
Scam Center Strike Force
00:21:40
Speaker
And so that's where I think we see a lot of promise. And we highlighted this at the Global Anti-Scam Summit with the work of the Scam Center Strike Force. Right. So don't know if you want to get into that yet, but i I'll ah just, you know, I think it's relevant your I great transition. I think it's a great transition. So let's get into that. Yeah. So so I think that was indicative of, you know, um some like a lot of the behind the scenes work and it took a while for that to become public for the announcement. um But it's look, it's it's the law enforcement community, the foreign policy community and the political community in Washington that has to be aligned for something like that to happen. And so we were thrilled to be able to you know platform and highlight the the work that the scam center strike force and and you know with Janine Pirro, U.S. s attorney Pirro at the head of that strike force.
00:22:33
Speaker
And they want to partner with private sector to make their work more effective, to get more data and information and tools, et cetera, insights. And so we found ourselves at a crossroads that and we were able to help deepen and further that that partnership. and we And we will continue to do so.
00:22:48
Speaker
So they ah launched in November of 2025 for the announcement. You left in June. Was there activity that started when you were still there for the strike force, that kind of collecting information, gathering intelligence? Did you see...
00:23:03
Speaker
and So just those are difficult contexts in which to get much done on the the law enforcement or policy collaboration side when you don't have true partners. You don't have partners that are aligned in your objectives of actually stopping the scammers. And so they're because of the amount of money that's being stolen and made, then it makes it easier for that money to be reinvested in buying protections.
00:23:28
Speaker
right Buying protection from a government or from an armed group or from just a local official who can control what comes in and what comes out. um And so that made it difficult for us from a law enforcement perspective to make much of an impact.
00:23:43
Speaker
And I do want to say, i mean, another aspect of this that I think is very important and and coming back to USAID and foreign assistance and development work, um and you alluded to this earlier, Ayelet, is that um a lot of the people who who are working in those scam compounds are indeed trafficked. They are applying for jobs that they that are completely fake and they have no idea what they're getting into. They come to the compound, their passports are taken, and they're just you know basically at gunpoint saying, start scamming and And if you don't make $5,000 a day, we're going to just be like, you know, so that's that that is certainly the reality that a lot of people faced.
00:24:18
Speaker
and And it's horrific. However, there are a lot of gray areas. And it's important to have some nuance in this because I think a lot of this, a lot of the challenge is structural. And by that, I mean, we heard of a lot of cases where people could be recruited into the scam compounds simply because they didn't have really better prospects.
00:24:36
Speaker
Right. so So someone comes along if you're say you're there's there's a civil war in in Myanmar. You're fleeing the conflict. You come into Thailand. You're kind of in this neither nor in between space. You have kids that are growing up. They're not really getting educated. They're not getting a good education. They don't have good job prospects. And someone comes along in those communities and and maybe, you know, they look fancy, they're wearing like fancy clothing and maybe not driving a nice car. And they come by and they say, hey, you guys want to make some money? Yeah, they want to make some money. And this is, so there's other ways that are, that that the the recruitment of scam workers happens that are that are much more gray area and not black and white, where it's not just like, hey, you're a
00:25:18
Speaker
You're ah ah a crappy person who doesn't who has no empathy and has no compunction about just stealing from other people, and that's how you make your living. um And then other people who are completely doing it at gunpoint and hate it and are traumatized from it, right? So, I mean, there's the whole spectrum. But there's ah there are people in the middle. There's a lot of people in the middle. And so for the people who are susceptible to that, that points to a structural challenge of the number of people around the world who don't have good
AI and Sophisticated Scams
00:25:47
Speaker
job prospects. And as people become increasingly educated and computer savvy, whatnot, there's a real risk that we face globally of people being attracted to this as a profession. And so i think we need to be doing a lot more...
00:26:00
Speaker
through all kinds of different vectors to address that, to counter that, to dissuade people from going in that direction, to provide other alternatives, because ultimately it just comes back and hurts us. And and so if it's if it's so easy to just steal from people online using tech you tactics and techniques that are now well-known, that are shared all over the internet, and whether it's the dark web or not dark web, it's not hard to get the manuals on how to do this stuff. And desperation can be a real strong force for folks getting into this space if they don't think there are going to be consequences to them for doing it.
00:26:40
Speaker
I think you touched so many points in the last statement that you made, ah the the last one being very powerful. If there are no consequences and they have no other opportunities, and I'll just add that little powered by AI tagline to all of this, right? Absolutely. how easy it is to defraud people online and scam people online. And the reality is it's just much, much easier with AI, especially when it comes to languages and translations, ad hoc, on the fly, deep fakes, all those things are really powered by AI and and simplify the attacks. So I think the, and I understand what you're saying structurally, like if we create a better future and that's kind of ties back to the USAID original mission, if we show
00:27:23
Speaker
where we help facilitate a better future for everyone, then people will want to do good because we believe the nature of people is good. and with that assumption, if they do have opportunities, then they'll do things that are productive for the world and not hurting other people. So I don't know if there were concrete steps that you had planned out as part of the USAID work. You know, one thing that you mentioned is really working with local organizations to educate them about the problem and and support their spreading the word. And besides that, what were some things that you started to think about and to plan to tackle this scam compound organized crime problem? Yeah, no, right. So, i mean, i think that a lot of, I would say, having spent a lot of time working in foreign assistance, um a lot of the best things that we did was just finding people who already were doing really good things. And it wasn't necessarily us teaching them, you know, hey, you know, you should care about this issue or, you should you know, it's people from within the cultures and societies where we were, who already had a passion and were motivated to to make their communities, make their countries, make their regions better, more stable, more prosperous, have more opportunity for more kinds of people within those communities and to invest in them. right And that's at the end of the day is is to say, we are aligned on our mission. And so how can we help you do a better job of what you're doing?
00:28:48
Speaker
Because if we come in as outsiders, as as the US government, as whatever, we're not going to understand things the way that the same way to the extent that that folks do locally. So that's why we, I think that, you know, what what I would have wanted to do was invest more resources in the local organizations that already had the ideas and the and the infrastructure in place to help victims in this space. One of the big arguments that I made as I wound down my time um and it became clear that our human trafficking work was not going to be continued in the region was that we needed to support these-
00:29:26
Speaker
Of course, Yes, important. You want to repeat it as it was clear that the counter. Right. So as it became clear that our countering human trafficking work was going to be coming to a close, was being terminated, the argument that I made ah for continuing to engage in this space, and I think that that this argument still holds today, and I think that that I will continue to make this argument to to whoever will listen to me, but is that in funding the organizations that help the victims of trafficking that come out of these scam compounds,
00:29:55
Speaker
It is not just because it is we should do this, not just because it's the right thing to do, because it's the moral thing to do, the humanitarian thing to do, and it is all those things, but because it is the strategically smart thing to do.
00:30:07
Speaker
Because if we actually want to understand how the scam compounds operate, What technology are they using? What tactics are they using? Who are they targeting? Who's behind it? Who's benefiting from it? Who's coming and showing up and managing these things from behind the scenes? The people who have the most insight into this, of course, are the victims themselves who come out of those scam
Continued Investment in Anti-Scam Efforts
00:30:27
Speaker
compounds.
00:30:27
Speaker
So the more we're able to capture that information in a systematic, structured way of what is going on in these compounds and and with these transnational organized crime initiatives, the better we'll be able to respond.
00:30:39
Speaker
And so it's a real self-interested argument to say, fine, you don't have to want to be a great yeah like a humanitarian. But if we're self-interested, we'll just use our example as an American government, and we want to stop these criminals, then this is a way of getting that information that will enable us to more effectively counter the criminal efforts. So I think, you know, that's where I think that continuing to find opportunities for more investment in that work in the absence of USAID funding for that is something that I'm really keen to promote and move forward. And also the very important work of local journalists. They're the ones who are able to tell the stories. We're able to get the video, to talk to the folks that are most directly impacted by this and translate that into the local context of why should Thai citizens care about this issue? Because it impacts Thais as well. The Thai citizens are getting scammed left and right by these scammers as well. It's not just the West. It's, know, the Global Anti-Scam Alliance data will show the global state of the scams reports, right? So that you're actually more likely to be scammed. Actually underdeveloped countries. in developing countries. That's right. That's right.
00:31:50
Speaker
So what do you think about the National Scam Strike Force, their mandate, with the approach that it's less about being humanitarian and driving, strengthening democracies and fighting human crime, but more about let's take down the scams that are imp impacting U.S. citizens or Americans at large. What is the charter that you've seen from the involvement of Global Anti-Scan Alliance North America chapter, connections to talking to different people in Congress? What are your observations about their mandate and what they're looking to
Political Leadership and Anti-Scam Initiatives
00:32:23
Speaker
do?
00:32:23
Speaker
Well, I think it's still a work in progress. And we're continuing those conversations and we'll have another one up coming up here shortly to get an update on what's going on. But I look, i'm I'm really encouraged with the establishment of this strike force, with the announcements that it initially made. And a big part of that is because that requires political leadership. That requires someone in the administration saying, this is an important issue and we're going to put resources, both financial and human resources, behind this effort because we think this really matters. And that tracks completely with what we've been saying all along and what we were messaging back to Washington from the field when we were in the field. So in that sense, it's really gratifying to see that there's action. Now, the proof will be in the pudding. I think a lot more needs to happen in terms of a coordinated, comprehensive approach to get more indictments, more sanctions, create more pressure. But we already saw it starting to work. Now, we can't say that this is all because of the strike force, of course. But you know I don't think it's a coincidence that the strike force, the U.S. government and and other allies, by the way, not just the US, but put out, yeah, coordinated with the UK, coordinated the this indictment and these sanctions, targeting the Prince Group. And lo and behold, the chairman of the Prince Group is arrested and extradited to China. And right now we're watching in Cambodia as it's quite chaotic. We're not sure what exactly is happening um and how sincere the crackdowns are. But
00:33:51
Speaker
there's no denying that these scam compounds are emptying out, that there's thousands and thousands of former scammers, whether trafficked or or not, who are now on the street in Cambodia, in various parts of the country, seeking to get out, get home. And so this is potentially transformational. And so I think that the pressure can work. And so you know I think that it's It's one piece of the puzzle. I think that there's, you know, you you want to have ah a whole of ecosystem approach to these things, but it's a very important piece of the puzzle because it creates consequences. And, you know, fear of negative consequences can be a really important driver for behavior change. And in this case, I think we're seeing it play out. At the end of the day, Cambodia arrested the kingpin of the prince group and extradited to China. So again, we see that pressure helps. But of course, we want to act differently. But at the end of the day, there are some learnings that we can implement from that.
Niels' Transition and Global Efforts
00:34:49
Speaker
So maybe last ah topic I wanted to cover with you was really the transition. So your mission, i would stay say, stayed the same. Your your your value driven mission and, you know, fighting scams, driving or counter human trafficking and driving, um you know, better outcomes for people around the world that will eventually make the world a better place and and make Americans live a better lives, too. And you joined the Global Anti-Scam Alliance as the director of the North America chapter where we worked together for a little while. So tell me, how are you continuing your work as part of Global Anti-Scam Alliance?
00:35:25
Speaker
Yeah, so I was really fortunate to find the connection with ah the Global Anti-Scam Alliance, to find the connection with you and you're being very modest. But I am just building off of the work that you started, the foundation that you have laid as the first director for the North America chapter and really helped shape the vision. And so greatly indebted to to your work and your leadership in this space. So I do feel really grateful to be in this position to continue this work. And that was my goal is is is when I was leaving Thailand, this phenomenon is too important to let go for me personally. I just was too deeply invested in this issue to not continue working on it in some way, shape or fashion. And so again, very grateful to have made the connection with the GASA team and to now be in the position I am with the directing the the North America chapter and leading this effort here. And what we're trying to do is build a coalition of cross-sectorally, of champions, of institutions and people who care deeply about this fight and about improving our response. And so that's been, for me, an incredible learning curve of understanding the ecosystem here in the U.S. of all the different players in this space. And what I'm you know What I'm seeing is that there's so many people who care about different pieces of this and who are doing great work. And I think that there's a tremendous amount of value in convening those people, in unearthing, sharing and unearthing best practices and lessons learned and what's working and what could we be doing. And I think that this is what excites me about the Global Anti-Scam alliance work is what our ability to take that global perspective, to have chapters all over the world and experts all over the world who are looking at at how this is manifesting in different countries and and in different jurisdictions, get build out the knowledge and solution-oriented thinking, and then share that and deploy that. And again, we we try to then operationalize that at the US level in the American context to say, hey, here's what's working in other places, or here's here's what we know from how this dynamic plays out.
00:37:27
Speaker
how can we get How can we move forward and do better in this space and have a more coordinated response, a better informed response, and a more, I would say, action-oriented response in what is a really difficult policy environment, right? you The U.S. system is by design and by nature very decentralized. And there's there's all kinds of agencies and ah different levels of government that are involved in part of the solution. And so it's a real coordination challenge and it's a real coordination problem. But fortunately, there's a lot of actors in this space who already have have done tremendous work to lay the foundation and the groundwork And we're grateful to build off of the the tremendous work done by the Aspen Institute's national task force in this space that that created ah ah a blueprint for what what a national strategy
Scams' Global Impact and Collaboration
00:38:15
Speaker
could look like. And organizations like AARP, we're grateful to have them as a partner as they're so focused on supporting victims and providing support as as Americans get scammed of all of all ages. Of course, they focus more on older Americans, but they provide services to all Americans when you know you've been scammed and you're not sure where to turn or what you should do.
00:38:35
Speaker
So I think there's so much work that we need to do to raise people's awareness and education level. give people the tools to fight back, and incentivize the companies and actors in this space for them to do more and do better and and to make it easier for consumers so that they're not bombarded all the time with these these scam attacks.
00:38:56
Speaker
and And so, yeah, I think just coming back to this is why it's a national security issue for me is, you know, any country that's bleeding $200 billion dollars a year that's going to transnational organized crime groups that then reinvest that in all kinds of money laundering and trafficking activities, including now those Chinese money laundering organizations, again, from the organized crime groups, who are the money launderers of choice for the drug cartels and in Mexico and across Latin America.
00:39:25
Speaker
This affects us directly. It affects our health, our security, and our prosperity. We can't afford to lose $200 billion dollars to criminals halfway around the world who then use it to do a bunch of nefarious crap.
Hope and Solutions Against Scams
00:39:40
Speaker
Yeah. ah Wow. I want to ask you, it's really great to see the momentum and activity that in the last two years, that's the activity that's happening in the US globally and the different participants. And I think bringing these, when you talk about convening, it's not just convening government, it's really convening private public sector and ah companies who own some of the platforms that are used for conversations and for scamming and What can they do better to safeguard and guardrails on their platforms in order to make it harder for criminals to abuse the platform? So I think really getting everyone at the table and the the tech companies is so, so critical. So last question for you, Niels, what are you hopeful about? What does good look like for you?
00:40:29
Speaker
So I am hopeful, I think, in in just the last you know six, seven months that I've been part of this team, part of the global anti-scam alliance and part of this broader community of people and organizations that are committed to fighting this scamdemic, fighting this this scamming epidemic. um I think there's real momentum. I think that there's a lot there's growing awareness about the the problem. you know I can just look at the conversations that we've had over the last few months with all kinds of actors across Capitol Hill.
00:41:00
Speaker
Look, people care about this issue. They complain about what's happening to their members of Congress, and it's and it's incumbent upon the members of Congress to respond and to do more. And so... To the extent that we can help shape the conversation, provide best practices and and solutions to policymakers so that we can get our house in order in the U.S. to have the kind of response that is ah commensurate with the problem.
00:41:25
Speaker
We're not there yet. And so um I think that I am hopeful, but I am not satisfied. I think that we we have a long way to go. And so I think it's really, it's about waking up every day and thinking about what more can we be doing to move the needle on this? What more can we be doing to get to some kind of impact and solution? Who should we be talking to? Who should we be bringing into the network? Who already has solutions that we can highlight, like, you know, platform and amplify and and get the word out that there's really good ideas in this space. And so I'm hopeful, but I am
00:42:01
Speaker
far from satisfied with where we are today. I think there's a lot of work ahead of us.
00:42:12
Speaker
Niels, thank you so much for joining on the podcast. You're now officially crowned as a scam ranger as part of our scam rangers podcast and looking forward to hosting you in the future to hear more about your work. Thank you. Well, thank you, Ayala. Do I get like a a ranger mask or what what happens now that I'm a scam ranger? It's more like a forest ranger, so maybe a cross.
00:42:33
Speaker
But yeah, it's excitinging guiding people to safety and supporting. So yeah. I love it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Pleasure as always.