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The Emotional Front Lines: Supporting Victims and Fighting Fraud with AARP, A conversation with Amy Nofziger, Senior Director of Fraud Victim Support at the AARP Fraud Watch Network
186 Plays11 days ago
Scams don’t start with transactions. They start with trust.
In this episode of ScamRangers, Ayelet Biger-Levin sits down with Amy Nofziger, Senior Director of Fraud Victim Support at the AARP Fraud Watch Network, to explore the human side of scams, and what’s changed over the past two decades.
Amy and her team receive ~450 calls a day from victims and concerned individuals. And what they’re seeing is clear:
The losses are bigger. The manipulation is deeper. And the emotional impact is often devastating.
This conversation dives into:
- Why scams are fundamentally human problems, not just fraud problems
- How criminals exploit trust, emotion, and purpose
- The rise of long-term relationship scams and financial grooming
- What victims actually need and why trauma-informed support matters
- How awareness, reporting, and collaboration are finally starting to shift the tide
These are the most relevant and valuable links for this episode:
- AARP Fraud Watch Network (main resource):
https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/ - Fraud Watch Network Helpline (call support):
https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/helpline/ - AARP BankSafe (for financial institutions):
https://www.aarp.org/money/scams-fraud/banksafe/
🎙️ About the Guest
Amy Nofziger leads fraud victim support at AARP’s Fraud Watch Network, where she has spent over two decades helping individuals navigate the aftermath of scams. She oversees a national helpline, volunteers, and programs focused on education, prevention, and recovery.
📣 Call to Action
If you’re in a financial institution, fintech, or fraud prevention role, this episode will change how you think about scams.
👉 Share this episode with your team
👉 Start thinking earlier in the scam journey
👉 And help shift the industry toward prevention
About the Host
Ayelet Biger-Levin is the Founder and CEO of RangersAI and the host of Scam Rangers, a podcast exploring the human side of scams and the people working to protect consumers from financial and emotional harm.
Through her work at RangersAI and her leadership within the Global Anti-Scam Alliance, Ayelet partners with financial institutions, policymakers, and advocates to elevate scam prevention beyond controls and technology toward trust-based, customer-centric protection.
Be sure to follow her on LinkedIn and reach out to learn about her additional activities in this space:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayelet-biger-levin/
RangersAI: https://www.rangersai.com/
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Transcript
Impact of Scams Beyond Financial Losses
00:00:01
Speaker
And so it's not just the dollar amount that is being lost. It's the the hopes and dreams and the future of a lot of our victims that are being lost. So that's definitely one of the impacts that we're seeing is it's yes, the money is significant because people need money to live. But people also need hope and support and friendship and guidance to live as well. And that's one of the things, so it's it's a significant loss, not just the money, but this, you know, hopes and dreams that this criminal has created for the victims.
00:00:38
Speaker
We're still fighting scams like they're fraud problem, like they're an account takeover problem, but they're not. They're a human problem. Scams don't start with money moves. They start much earlier, with trust, emotion, and manipulation. And by the time we see the transaction, it's already too late. What's changing right now isn't just the scale of scams, it's the impact.
00:00:58
Speaker
People aren't just losing money, they're losing their confidence, their relationships, their
Introduction to the Scam Rangers Podcast and Host
00:01:03
Speaker
future. In this episode, we go inside what that really looks like on the front lines of victim support.
00:01:12
Speaker
Welcome to Scam Rangers, a podcast about the human side of fraud and the people who are on a mission to protect us. I'm your host Ayelet Bigger Levine, and I'm passionate about driving awareness and solving this problem.
Role of AARP in Fraud Victim Support
00:01:32
Speaker
Today's Scam Ranger is always on the front lines. I'm so excited to have Amy Nofziger from ARP. Amy, welcome to Scam Rangers. Hi, thanks so much for having me. It's pleasure to be here.
00:01:43
Speaker
So I would love to start with ah you telling us about your role with ARP and the Fraud Watch Network. Yeah, absolutely. um i am the Senior Director of Fraud Victim Support here at the Fraud Watch Network. And what does that mean? It means a lot. But my main focus is on really supporting the victims of frauds and scams. And and I've been at AARP in a very similar role the whole time working in fraud and with victims for 24 years. So I've definitely... um you know, been on the front lines talking to folks. So we have the Fraud Watch Network Helpline, which is a free resource for anyone of any age, and you don't have to be an AARP member to use it.
AARP's Fraud Helpline
00:02:22
Speaker
ah We get about 450 phone calls a day from people who have either experienced fraud themselves for their family or are just calling to report a fraud attempt on them or their family members because they want AARP to know about it. So we work with the victims of fraud. I have 150 volunteers across the country and an amazing staff of six. And we support victims and help them on their journey.
00:02:47
Speaker
Wow. So you said 450 calls day. And I imagine that most of those calls are not easy, right? No, they're not easy. You know, and people often ask me, you know, in my 24 years, what has changed when it comes to fraud? And there's a couple of things. But when it comes to the calls, definitely what has changed is, you know, we always pride ourselves on not being transactional, really being in the moment and being emotional with our callers.
Evolution of Scam Tactics and Impacts
00:03:15
Speaker
But It's a different type of call now where it used to be you know, I'm so sorry that someone stole $500 from you on your Amazon, you know, gift card or, you know, that, you know, you thought you were winning the publisher's clearing house and someone stole, you know, $1,000 from you. Now it's, you know, I'm so sorry that someone stole $500,000 from me you. Your wife is divorcing you. Your house is in foreclosure. You're probably going have to file bankruptcy and you're going to have to pay back taxes on that. So that's definitely, you know, we're getting more of those calls now because the dollar amounts that people are having stolen from them are just at these, you know, huge exorbitant um losses.
00:03:54
Speaker
And we know that when we get to those dollar amount losses, it's typically following the financial grooming scams where it's ah not necessarily a romantic relationship, but a relationship that is formed over time with the criminal if it's infused with the scams from Southeast Asia. But it's definitely those longer term scams. so how is the nature of that impact those calls and the required support?
00:04:21
Speaker
Definitely, we're seeing a lot more of, you know, what people are calling the the pig butchering or the cryptocurrency investment scams. and But a lot of these are definitely still romance scams or have a significant, um you know, trusted relationship involved with them.
00:04:35
Speaker
And so it's not just the dollar amount that is being lost. It's the the hopes and dreams and the future of a lot of our victims that are being lost. So that's definitely one of the impacts that we're seeing is it's yes, the money is significant because people need money to live, but people also need hope and support and friendship and guidance to live as well. And that's one of the things. So it's ah it's a significant loss, not just the money, but this, you know, hopes and dreams that this criminal has created for the victims. So actually, I feel like we dove right into the meat of things. I wanted to take a step back and um ask you what are the goals for ARP, for the organization in this, in the Fraud Watch Network, in the helpline? What are you trying to achieve? Obviously, it's altruistic support to individuals and really helping the community. But if you can take a step back and walk us through your why. Why is this happening? Why are you doing it? um What are success metrics even?
00:05:37
Speaker
um There's a lot to unpack there, but I think at the highest level, why AARP is involved in the fraud space is because, you know, with our primary focus on helping older adults live their best lives, we know that having financial security is is definitely one of the components of living your best life. And you fraud's been around forever and fraud will be here until long after I'm gone. Right. So I don't have any visions of I'm going to solve for fraud, but I'm going to, along with, you know, my colleagues and and everyone at ARP, we're going to certainly try to put the biggest dent in it we can. But if you think about fraud as a journey, you try to pull people out
Comprehensive Approach to Fraud by AARP
00:06:17
Speaker
along the way. So AARP is definitely looking at as a continuum. So we're going to try to pull people out with education. We're going to try to pull people out with the prevention. We're going to try to pull people out with legislation and, you know, perhaps, um you know, having better consumer protections on things like, you know the crypto ATM machines. We're going to pull people out with the warnings. You know, even as many people pass through this fraud journey, we ultimately know there are going to still be victims at the end and they need support.
00:06:45
Speaker
So that is what my why is, you know, yes, let's try to get everyone out of the fraud journey along the way. But just like with any other crime out there that we're trying to solve for, we know that there's still going to be victims and they need support. And one of the things, again, because I've been in this for a really long time is why ARP? It's because there really wasn't anyone doing what we're doing for a very long time. um So again, when people ask me, know what has changed? The amount of eyes that is now on fraud is amazing.
00:07:15
Speaker
We all have a place in this fight. um And so if ARP's place can be where it's at, whether that's with our prevention, our advocacy, or our victim support, you know, why not us? And, you know, especially with my team on the helpline, you know we're really good at supporting victims. So let us continue to do that. And and if you even need help, you know, um come to us because because we're doing a really good job of supporting victims. Yeah.
00:07:40
Speaker
So can you walk me through a day in a life for you or for one of the volunteers or your team members? What does that look like? You start in the morning. it it sounds a very, very hard job, obviously, to support people all day long and deal with the emotional trauma, the financial impact. But but walk me through a day in the life for you, for your team and for yourself. Yeah, absolutely. i mean, every day looks different um because you don't know what you're going to get on the helpline that day. um So I'll just kind of run you through what that process looks like because, you know, for each of us, our day is different. So if you would call the Fraud Watch Schoenberg Helpline, you'll be first greeted um
00:08:15
Speaker
by me um on a recording and it'll just tell you a little bit about what's going to happen as you get through the helpline. um Certainly, we have a disclaimer that people you know need to agree to because we want to be able to use the information that we have and share it with law enforcement when necessary. And all of our cases that we have, they do go to the FTC's Consumer Sentinel because we all need to know what's happening. So you'll be greeted by one of our helpline agents who will triage your call and ask you a couple of questions about going but you know what's going on. If you're calling to report a tech scam and you know it's a scam, but you just want someone to you know know about it, certainly our helpline and our intake team at that point can assist you and guide you and get that call taken care of.
00:08:55
Speaker
If through a couple of questions, our helpline agents realize that you have been a victim of a fraud or scam, or you're calling about a family member, or your computer has been breached, you're still involved, or it's just a little bit of a higher level case, That's where they'll take more information and they'll escalate it to our team's, you know, kind of fraud watch number case queue. We will evaluate each case and then we we will send it to one of our, we have about 30 volunteers that work every day. um And they work on, we have four shifts throughout the day and they work about two hours, which for them, equal you know, comes to the equivalence of probably six to eight victims that they work with, depending on, you know, if you know, someone's really wants to talk or someone doesn't, you know, it could, it could fluctuate through there.
00:09:38
Speaker
We do it in that way because we find out that it is emotionally draining and we really want to protect their burnout, so to speak, because it is a lot. um So some of our volunteers want to work, you know, four hours and that's great, you know, but we have conversations with them. What does that
Volunteer Support for Fraud Victims
00:09:54
Speaker
look like? Does that mean, you know, you can take a break if you need to, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So then our volunteer calls the victim back. um And this is all taking place within usually a one to two hour time period from the time they start to call by the time they get their call back. And they just then work one on one with that victim, talk to them about the scam, you know, help them look for the red flags, help them understand what might be coming next, potentially like a recovery scam that might be coming, help them understand why and where they need to report this, offer additional resources, you know, are you looking for a peer support? group You know, what more can we do for you and just really being there for them emotionally. And then our volunteer, you know, writes up the case notes in our tracking system and then, you know, works with what their next victim. So, yeah. That's kind of a typical, you know, from start to finish what a victim call looks like. I think you touched on this point of really supporting the supporters.
00:10:50
Speaker
I will ask if someone, you know, our listeners ah to this podcast are typically, i i would say definitely a mixed group, but many financial institution fraud fighters, if anyone wants to volunteer, how would they go about that?
00:11:04
Speaker
Certainly, um you would just call us on the Fraud Watch Network helpline and just say you're interested in volunteering. I will um say that with a caveat right now that we are on a pretty significant waiting list. Oh, that's good. That's good to know. It is good. ah That's good news. Yeah, our retention rate is significantly high because what we're doing does feed purpose for our volunteers. For sure.
00:11:26
Speaker
Yeah. And so it's a very high level volunteer job that yes, it can be exhausting and frustrating and sad and tiring, but is also so rewarding. And we really don't have volunteers leave. And it's weird because we want to have more volunteers, but we don't want to have as many calls. And so you know, ah you're doing this balancing act here. But that doesn't mean that there's not other volunteers at AARP and, know, with the Fraud Watch Network in general. We have a great digital fraud fighters program. we have opportunities out in the field for for speakers, for people to go to community events and talk about fraud. So if you're certainly someone that wants to volunteer in your community, you know, just reach out to the helpline we'll get you in touch with the right person. it Sounds great. And I can definitely see how the community, or as you said at the beginning, the community awareness and the fraud fighting community and law enforcement, I think there's greater collaboration, ah but also collaboration of knowledge and sharing of information in terms of What are the problems we're facing? so So there's definitely a larger community of people with awareness who would like to contribute and volunteer. And I can definitely see the feeling of purpose and fulfillment by supporting victims. So that's great.
00:12:41
Speaker
I wanted to ask and shift a little bit and talk a little bit about learnings from the conversations. Besides the anatomy of a scam type data that you share with the FTC and the Consumer Sentinel, what do you learn generally about the nature of scams? You talked about the evolution over the last few years in amounts, but also I'm wondering, how do you learn about the manipulation itself, the tactics, the psychology that is used? And what do people get wrong about scams? I don't necessarily know that the psychology or the tactics that scammers use have changed. I mean, I remember my first phone call 25 years ago was a publisher's clearinghouse imposter scam. And I think we got 10 of those yesterday on the helpline, right? Do you want to tell us about that scam?
00:13:30
Speaker
So the Publisher's Clearinghouse imposter scam is, you know, it's a sweepstakes imposter. They'll call and say that you won the Publisher's Clearinghouse and that you need to pay back taxes or shipping and handling for your prize. They are going to accept that in the form of a prepaid gift card or direct you to a crypto ATM machine. This scam has really not changed in the last 24 years. And people are losing hundreds of thousands of dollars in this scam. Because if you have this dangling object over here $50 million and a brand new Mercedes being delivered to you, And the fee for it is, you know, 5,000, 10,000. Oops, we need another 15,000. You think, well, I'm going to get 50,000. So, you know, or I'm sorry, I'm going to get 50 million. 50 million. 50,000 right now. What is it?
00:14:18
Speaker
You know, and this is just as the psychological tactic of, you know, building your hopes and dreams and scammers manipulate your emotions on, you know, the legacy that you want to live. You know, they use emotions of excitement. um You know, it's it's funny. People talk about AI now and and how, you know,
00:14:35
Speaker
It's going to change the the way of scams. Well, it is. But it's another tool in the toolbox. It's very similar to the publisher's clearinghouse that used to come in the mail, the the actual scam ones. And people would say, oh, it's real because there's a gold sticker on it. Yeah.
00:14:49
Speaker
OK, that gold sticker was purchased for 10 cents at an office store. Right. So AI to me is just like another tool that they're using for this. So yeah, so back to your question about the manipulation. So I think the tactics have, you know, kind of stayed the same, but I think we're more aware of them, the tactic of it coming, you know, urgent, it's coming out of the blue with urgency, the criminals are getting you under a heightened emotional state, whether with fear or excitement, right, they're manipulating your behavior and asking you to lie or to keep something a secret. right they're they're also Of course, there's always that ask for for money or personal information. um So those definitely you know haven't changed necessarily. But other learnings, I think one of the learnings that I have is just from anecdotal is that we are an isolated society and the scammers will find a way to create that companionship or that purpose for you. um I've talked to a lot of people that have retired. And, you know, they think retirement is going to be this amazing activity. And they're going to be so busy in a year into it, they find out they really can't find purpose. And the scammers will find that purpose for you with this amazing cryptocurrency investment. And they will give you that purpose, right? And so I think we're changing a little bit as well.
00:16:11
Speaker
I think we're also, how do you say this? We're not listening to ourselves. We're not listening to our guts. I can't tell you how many people have said to me, i had a feeling. I had a feeling. I knew something was right, but I just didn't trust myself. Like, when did we when did we stop trusting our guts? When did we stop trusting our our feelings? And so those are just some just things that i have definitely noticed. And then the biggest one of all...
00:16:37
Speaker
is this magical thing that we carry around with us 24-7, right? That people call a phone, that it's the phone, and that we call a phone, but really when was the last time you called somebody on that device?
00:16:48
Speaker
The scammers have access to us twenty four seven whereas it used to be they really only had access to you when you were at your your home, maybe your place of employment or at a community event or something. You can be at a stoplight, a doctor's office, or waiting for your nail appointment. And that's when that text comes in and it catches you off guard and they have access to you 24-7 now. I'll just say, don't text and drive.
00:17:10
Speaker
That's true. And I think you so you asked a really important question. When did we stop listening to our guts or or our intuition? And it just made me feel how bombarded we are with information, with ah you know so much data. And I think the loss of trust is I think there are two classes of maybe thinking one is I can't trust anything. And then and so i ignore everything, but also I ignore very important things from, you know, true interactions that are supposed to happen and that isolates people even more. And then there's the other
00:17:43
Speaker
curious, let's call it attitude, which is like, oh, this is interesting. And this is interesting. Oh, an interesting opportunity, maybe a more naive one maybe, you know, and we're all looking for companionship. And it's almost sad. I see all these videos popping up now of Let's look back at life in the 90s and how great life was and how we were outside and how we would connect with people and
The Role of AI in Modern Scams
00:18:06
Speaker
how. And I'm not saying you even mentioned scams that happened 24 years ago, the end end of the 90s, maybe the beginning of 2000s. And I remember those male scams. You won this lottery or whatever. But it it became so accessible. And with the evolution of AI, that's really interesting. I agree. And at the end of the day, psychology is psychology, right? Human nature is human nature. So it's not necessarily new.
00:18:31
Speaker
i know that P.T. Barnum wrote all about you know human manipulation from the perspective of a mentalist and deceiver. But what has changed with AI is the magnitude of the ability to reach us. So you can create agents now instead of people that reach out and they can use ah language that doesn't look like it's you know culturally a misfit to what maybe be before we've seen. Not to say that we don't have people of our own culture trying to scam us. Of course, there's it's everywhere. But the overseas scams now become culturally fitting. So our suspicion is lower as per these communications. It sounds...
00:19:13
Speaker
more right than it used to sound before. It seems like it's it makes more sense. So I think where the AI comes in is really the the order of magnitude of the problem is going to grow. So unfortunately, your team will continue to have more work. So I wonder about the volume of the calls that you get in. And I don't know if you have any limitations, but have you seen a change in that over time? Not just the size of the the the money loss problem, but but really the volume of calls. um Yeah. And let me say something about the AI really quick. I 100% agree. And if you're, you know, if you have 1500 water balloons thrown at you, one's going to hit, right? And so that's kind of what I think when you have the volume of this. But we still have to remember that even if it's an AI bot or whatever that's targeting you, there's this common DNA of every scam, right? Again, it's coming out of the blue with urgency. They're using emotions. They're going to ask you for money or personal information. They're going to form a relationship with trust. And they're going to ask you to lie or keep it a secret, right?
00:20:15
Speaker
i always just tell people, it's like, it doesn't matter if you really 100% believe that that is the celebrity that's asking you. If they're asking you if any of those things, whether using AI or not, right?
00:20:26
Speaker
It's 100% a So just I always just try to get people down to the absolute, so to speak. But with the volume, it's, you know, it's really interesting, because we've always been busy. um We certainly are busier now or have more volume. But I also think it's because there's just more awareness about it. You know, an ARP certainly does a fantastic job with marketing to let people know that we're out there doing this, and that we're really unique. There aren't that many inbound free services where you can talk to a live human being about your fraud situation for as much time as honestly you really want to talk to someone about it. So the word is out there. um You know, again, one of the differences that I've seen in my 24 years is that people are reporting now. So yes, fraud has increased, right? But reporting has increased. And that's what I think we should all be proud of is so even let's just pretend and say that fraud, the fraud attempts were the same 15 years ago, but people weren't reporting it.
Increased Fraud Reporting and Its Benefits
00:21:27
Speaker
So we thought, oh, we've solved for fraud. No. But now people are actually reporting it. They're reporting the attempts. They're reporting victimization. Sure, it's hugely underreported still because, you know, in society, we blame the victims or people don't know where to go and report it. But I would say that reporting has increased and that's something that we should all be proud of.
00:21:49
Speaker
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00:22:05
Speaker
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00:22:13
Speaker
One of the things that I wanted to ask about is advocacy work. I know that AARP is involved in forming different policies, and i wanted to ask about the connection between what you're seeing and different maybe examples of things that you've promoted to support elder adults or to support the population in general against these crimes.
Advocacy and Policy Influence by AARP
00:22:33
Speaker
So this is the value, again, and the uniqueness of having the ability to listen to 450 people reporting fraud every single day, is that we are hearing firsthand what is happening. So going back to crypto ATMs, it was probably in the beginning of the COVID, which apparently is we're coming on six years of, you know, shutting down. But we started to get these calls to the helpline of people going to convenience stores or liquor stores and depositing money in these ATMs.
00:23:06
Speaker
And so, I mean, for us, you know, honestly, because I pretty much look at our queue every single day, like I have my ear to the ground and my team has the ear to the ground. and we're like, wait, what is this? We've had three of these today. Hold on. So we're like, crypto ATMs? What? I don't even understand. So then all of a sudden they just kept coming. And so we reached out immediately to our advocacy team. And we said, did you know that there is a machine that you can deposit cash in at a convenience store? And this is what the criminals are sending their victims to now.
00:23:40
Speaker
And that's, you know, that's, again, the uniqueness of us listening to so many community members about what's happening is we can take that. Not only can we take that information to our advocacy team and say, hey, can you guys work on this to help put some consumer protections in place? But we can also hear the the scam that's kind of trending of the week or something that's popping up and take it to our marketing team and say, hey, can we put out an early warning?
00:24:07
Speaker
We put out one last week about the recall scam where you're getting an email or a text saying that a product you purchased is catching fire, right? Using urgency and you know emotions, right? Remember are the basis of a scam. And getting people to know that this is what's popping this week.
00:24:24
Speaker
So I'm really proud of the work that ARP has done with its cryptocurrency, or I'm sorry, its you know cryptocurrency ATM machines across the country. I saw that Indiana just actually outright banned them this past week. I'm in Colorado and our team worked with ARP and passed some tough consumer protections on our crypto ATMs here in Colorado last year or so. That's definitely something, again, that is been you know great about AARP is we hear it on the helpline, we take it to the those teams and they go do their magic. It's amazing. And I see that Minnesota and Tennessee are also actively advancing that with your help and your support. So that's amazing.
00:25:02
Speaker
So and and generally, so informing those, you know, advocacy is really the reports that are received by you enhance everything that you do and every I'm sure provide examples and stories and cases that that really inform, you know, better financial stability and security for your members, for for the other population in general. Yeah. And I will say, you know, even though AARP definitely focuses on the 50 plus and, you know, listens to its members, what would the fraud team, my colleague and I, like we will, we are for everyone.
00:25:35
Speaker
And that's because we know fraud is targeting everybody. And so when the helpline, you know, for me, it's very fulfilling when we have a 20-year-old call regarding their fraud experience. Now, will guarantee you they don't know what AARP is, or maybe they do. But I think what they did was they did a search for fraud help. And AARP came up as a free resource, and they were...
00:25:56
Speaker
They called. And I'm just, you know, so honored again that AARP can be there for these people in their time of need, even though they don't really maybe understand what AARP is. Who cares? They're getting the help and that's what matters.
00:26:07
Speaker
And one day they will be 50. So they will be a potential AARP member. Exactly. That's ah that's ah that's really great. And many of our listeners are financial institutions. And I wanted to ask a little bit about any kind of interconnection to financial institutions. Obviously, i think there were stats talking about those who do report report to their bank.
00:26:33
Speaker
first and foremost, out of all, you know, between the FBI, the FTC, the BBB, the banks are typically the first place they will report and maybe the bank will tell them other places. How do you see your relationship with helping or getting redirected from financial institutions and and and what what can we do better? what What does good look like for you in kind of the interrelationships between ARP and financial institutions? Well, we're lucky that AARP has an amazing program called BankSafe, which is a you know a training curriculum for frontline employees at banks and credit unions across the country. And so BankSafe works one-on-one with these financial institutions and really creates a partnership to help them you know understand the emotional tactics of the criminals and and what someone coming in under that emotional ether look like. look like, also really understanding and helping them under the the power dynamics. Because that's, you know, one of the things we've always heard is, you know, you have a 75 year old bank customer who's been there for 50 years and, you know, knows the manager. And then you have, you know, ah a first day frontline employee who's trying to do their best saying, I think you're a part of a scam. No, I'm not. You know, and the the power dynamics of it. So, you know, Banksafe can go in and really help banks with this. And so we're really lucky we have that, you know, our role is we will we'll take, you know, whatever calls. um So obviously, if a customer wants to call their bank first, maybe because their debit card or their credit card or their bank account might have been breached or, you know, they want the bank to know that this criminal might have their information. um Certainly, they're going to need to call their bank. I can't do that for them. Right. I can't get into their bank account and solve for that. But what then I can do to ah support the bank is I can then assist that the victim on the back end and say, okay, you've gotten that taken care of. But here's some other things that we need to consider, right? We need to consider recovery scams. This is what that looks like. Now, identity theft, you know, are you protected from identity theft? what Did the criminal steal your social security number? Do they have access to your credit? you know what does that look like? And then obviously, again, that that underlying emotional support. that maybe the banks don't have the capacity, the training, or really the time for. you know That's something that we can provide. And we do look um to work with a lot of you know for-profit, non-profit, financial institutions to be able to partner with them, to be able to be that resource for them.
Bank Training Program to Combat Scams
00:28:55
Speaker
when Once the issue has been resolved at their place of business, then we can take the next steps or work with them to train their employees on how to make the next steps accessible to that victim. So the whole journey and it's more of a holistic approach.
00:29:09
Speaker
So if a financial institution would like to join the BankSafe program, how can they reach out? So they can go um to ARP.org and do a search for BankSafe. um Certainly, if you have any trouble there, you can um you know call our helpline and say that they're interested in working with BankSafe and we'll get them to the right person.
00:29:26
Speaker
That's amazing. And I'll leave the link in the show notes as well.
00:29:32
Speaker
So one of the expressions that really resonated with me that I heard you use is trauma-informed support. And I wanted to shift and talk a little bit about that. And especially because many of our listeners are dealing with scam victims who call in they're more on the operational side. And i know ARP has been a very big advocate for how to talk about victims in in the news, how to talk about this crime in the news instead of he was duped or she was duped or this happened to them. a criminal attacked, you know, the person and stole money from them. and But going one layer deeper, can you talk a little bit about the concept of trauma-informed support, what that means and what what good looks like maybe?
00:30:20
Speaker
I mean, I can tell you what it looks like for us. um You know, what it looks like for us is that we're meeting the individual where they're at and really focusing on the needs of that person and the experiences that they've gone through that's got them to the place that they're at now and why they're calling right? Right. So for us, we're really less concerned about the data collection and the what gender are you? How old are you? Where do you live? What, you know, all of that. Who's the perpetrator? And so just, you know, talk to me about talk to me about where you're at today.
00:30:53
Speaker
you know How are you feeling today? Like what what you know what are you looking for today? And really just focusing on. on that individual and what their needs are and maybe how their needs haven't been met up to the point of getting to us. Also really understanding that everyone is coming to us with 60, 70 years of, you know, and baggage isn't the right word, but of who's made them who they are today, right? Life experiences. Yeah, life experiences. Here you go. is a better word. Mine is baggage. um Everyone else's is life experience. And just, you know, again, really meeting them where they're at. You know, you you asked me a little bit ago, like, what's a typical call look like? And it's really hard to say because some callers might need a tiny bit of tough love.
00:31:39
Speaker
Some callers might need a big sister. Some callers might need a best friend. Some callers might need babysitter, right? Like, so again, just really finding out what do they need to help them continue on their journey. We have worked with some law enforcement agencies. And, you know, when we encourage people to call and report, we also try to create good reporters and some good victims, so to speak. And we'll say, OK, now, when you call this place, they're going to pepper you with a series of questions.
00:32:11
Speaker
You know, really just answer their questions. And then you can always call me back and you can tell me the rest of the story. But we want to get this reporting right away. And some of those questions might seem a little tough at first.
00:32:23
Speaker
I want to hear your story. And I know they want to hear your story, but they need the nuts and the bolts of the the scam and the perpetrator information so they can start their investigation. So we try to help them understand that they each place that they call, they might be met with a different experience. And so to not, you know, kind of perpetuate their trauma. And so, I mean, that's one of the things, again, that we you know pride ourselves on is really setting expectations for our victims of what this you know reporting journey might look like. That's so important when when you interact with different agencies, obviously they have their needs, their priorities. And, you know, hopefully they'll have the empathy you know with law enforcement as
Preparing Victims for Reporting Fraud
00:33:03
Speaker
well. They'll have the empathy to preface their line of questioning. But having that reinforcement from someone who has shown real empathy for a period of time builds that rapport and trust to and to brave that journey of which is probably excruciating when you just went through this experience. So that's super important.
00:33:21
Speaker
Maybe one last question or one before the last, actually. In your 24 years, what is an example of maybe a story that really got to you, that stuck with you and that makes you, you go back to it sometimes and you think about, you know, wow, we were able to support this person. we where We were able to help this person. Can take a moment to think it's okay.
00:33:43
Speaker
I have a lot. um And I'm trying to think of one or two. um you know, I've been working with some family members for over four years, you know, and their loved one is still involved in whether it's a romance scam or, you know, whatever it is. And they're just they just need that kind of support along the way to make sure that they you know feel like they're doing things right. But, you know, once a couple of stories that have really hit me is just the marginalized populations in our in our country that has a target on their back. And that's the, you know, incarcerated or recently incarcerated individuals um who are have a high instance of identity theft. And, you know, it's unfortunate, but there's been a couple of times and we we can kind of follow the trends of maybe early release or whatever, where You know, they're getting out and they're trying to get a job and someone stole their identity. Right. And, you know, what do we normally say? Well, file a police report. Well, I'm not going to file a police report because I'm a you know formerly incarcerated individual. And how are they going to. know So, um you know, fraud affects everyone.
00:34:44
Speaker
But I don't sometimes feel like everyone gets the same support. And that's unfortunate. One gentleman, one time I remember I talked to him and this is during the pandemic. He had recently been released and his aunt had loaded $50 a peer-to-peer app for him to kind of get him started. and he had been incarcerated. He didn't know what a peer-to-peer app was. He didn't know really the phone. And, you know, so he did a Google search for customer service for this peer-to-peer app and thought he had gotten to the right place. It was a fake customer service phone number. Criminal got in and stole the $50. You know, some people might say, well, it was only $50. That $50 was his lifeline. And it was just that one for some reason just sticks with me. And maybe it was because I'm a criminology major and I worked in prisons prior to this. But that one just stuck with me because i was like, here he is really trying to do something. And there's a criminal, whereas other people have no sympathy for him whatsoever.
00:35:38
Speaker
Wow. And also to think about the fact that the amount is different for different people and it doesn't really matter. and maybe for someone, two hundred dollars is nothing. It's just the emotional trauma of, oh, how did I get scammed? But but for some people, that's their lifeline and the beginning of hope for a better future. And that's a lot of speaking of baggage, like a lot that goes in there. Absolutely. So now to the last question I always ask my guests, what are you hopeful
Hope and Progress in Scam Awareness
00:36:09
Speaker
about? A lot, honestly. i am not the sky is falling when it comes to fraud.
00:36:14
Speaker
Is it a big problem? Absolutely. But again, this isn't a new problem. Maybe there's new technologies and there's new dollar amounts and there's new ways to steal. But people have been stealing from people since the beginning of time. Um, you know, what and so i'm hopeful that we have more eyes on the problem than ever. um I'm hopeful that, you know, ah from what I read and what I see, there is actually a lot of investigation going into this and there's recovery of funds and there's a rest of people. Now, some people say it's for show. Got it. Right. But like, I just wrote a story yesterday, ah ah someone in the United States was arrested for doing some sexploitation scams. Mm hmm.
00:36:52
Speaker
So um that's encouraging to me. um I'm hopeful about the amount of people that want to volunteer for this cause and the volunteers that spend hours, you know, away from their family to volunteer for this. So that's what I'm i'm definitely hopeful about. I'm hopeful that with even my own two boys, that they have heard enough in this house that they are out there talking to their friends about it, right? They're saying, nope, that sounds like a scam. Like, and they're sending me screenshots. Is this a scam wrong?
00:37:23
Speaker
So I'm hopeful about a lot of things. And I think we all really should be, because that's a better place, I think, to be working from is hope than despair.
00:37:38
Speaker
Amy, thank you so much for telling us about the helpline and sharing your insights. And I'm looking forward to continuing the conversation in the future. Thank you. Thank you so much for having