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"He Never Asked for the Money”: What Banks and Regulators Need to Know About Romance Scams, With Beth Hyland
212 Plays5 days ago
In this deeply personal and moving episode of Scam Rangers, Ayelet Biger-Levin sits down with Beth Hyland, a romance scam survivor who has transformed her experience into a powerful mission for advocacy. Beth shares the intimate details of how a sophisticated criminal operation exploited her emotional vulnerability following a divorce, leading to over $26,000 to be stolen from her through Bitcoin ATMs and fraudulent loans.
The conversation highlights the terrifying effectiveness of "love bombing" and the psychological "fog" that prevents even highly intelligent, self-aware individuals from seeing the red flags. Beth discusses the critical moment her financial advisor intervened to "break the spell" and how she is now fighting back by testifying before Congress and authoring her book, Diary of a Romance Scam.
Key Takeaways:
- The Vulnerability Window: Beth explains how a period of isolation and the "exhale" after a major life transition made her a prime target for a scammer who mirrored her values of self-awareness and spirituality.
- Calculated Diversions: The scammer used "diversion tactics," such as staging technical issues during video calls or picking fights to create emotional distance when Beth asked for transparency.
- The Illusion of Partnership: To build intense trust, the scammer gave Beth his "bank login" information and had her facilitate transfers for him, making her feel like a trusted partner rather than a target.
- The Power of Professional Intervention: Beth credits her financial advisor for saving her from an additional $50,000 stolen from her. His training in romance fraud allowed him to deliver the news with empathy and provide a "stall tactic" that helped Beth safely exit the relationship.
- Redefining the Language: Beth advocates for a shift in how society views fraud, moving away from "falling for a scam" to being "manipulated into a crime" and insisting that money was "stolen," not just lost.
- A Call to Action for Banks: Beth urges financial institutions to move beyond "by-the-way" questions and implement deeper training for tellers to recognize the behavioral red flags of a "worn-out" victim withdrawing large sums of cash.
This episode is a vital resource for fraud fighters, legislators, and anyone seeking to understand the devastating emotional and financial toll of romance scams. It serves as a reminder that empathy and education are our strongest tools in the fight against high-stakes emotional manipulation.
Follow Beth on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/beth-hyland-06a98876/
Diary of a Romance Scam: https://www.amazon.com/Diary-Romance-Scam-Swiping-Right/dp/1662962843
🎧 About Scam Rangers
Scam Rangers is a podcast exploring the human, technical, and policy sides of scams. Hosted by Ayelet Biger-Levin, Founder and CEO of RangersAI, the podcast brings together experts, practitioners, and advocates working to stop scams before the money moves.
For more information go to www.rangersai.com
Ayelet on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayelet-biger-levin/
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Transcript
The Psychological Impact of Love Bombing
00:00:02
Speaker
I had a moment where I'm like, what did I just do? You know, when I look back, it felt like it was like a faded feeling. Like i just, I look back and i I could totally feel like I was hypnotized because of the love bombing and the the chemicals in the brain that are way on overdrive. You know, that's exactly what they do. And it's like, knew something was wrong, but it's like, it's like having a dream that you can't remember. You know, something's happened, but you don't know what, you know?
Insights from the Global Anti-Scam Alliance Summit
00:00:32
Speaker
At the Global Anti-Scam Alliance Summit, a woman named Lori Flowers stood on stage and told her story of a romance scam. She's smart, self-aware, accomplished, and still, it happened to her.
00:00:44
Speaker
The room went quiet, because even those who fight scams every day realized how little we truly understand the emotional reality of these crimes. Today's episode brings this reality into focus.
00:00:57
Speaker
We're going to hear from a romance scam survivor who shares a relationship built on connection, care, and trust, and how it slowly became a vehicle for manipulation. This isn't a story about ignoring red flags or making bad decisions.
00:01:11
Speaker
It's about love bombing, fear, and psychological control that can override logic, and how the damage doesn't stop when the scam ends. We talk about the emotional aftermath, the financial ripple effects, and why empathy, not judgment, is essential if we want to protect people and prevent these scams before they happen.
Introduction to Scam Rangers Podcast
00:01:31
Speaker
Welcome to Scam Rangers, a podcast about the human side of fraud and the people who are on a mission to protect us. I'm your host Ayelet Bigger Levine, and I'm passionate about driving awareness and solving this problem.
00:01:51
Speaker
Today's scam ranger is Beth Hyland. Beth is a scam victim turned survivor turned fighter who really will help us shed a light today on scams from the human side.
Beth's Journey: From Victim to Advocate
00:02:04
Speaker
And Beth, I wanted to say, has been really... a hero in the story, taking the story and turning it into a tool for us to better understand what happens to everyday people who are targeted by criminals and also wrote a book called Diary of a Romance Scam. um So I'd love to hear about that as well. So welcome to the podcast, Beth. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Ayelet. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me
Life After Divorce and the Search for Connection
00:02:31
Speaker
on.
00:02:31
Speaker
I wanted to ask you to share your story today. So kind of what happened, the how it unfolded, what led to it. And then later on, I wanted to talk about your activity in this area, what you've been doing, how you've been really trying to bring your story and the story of all all all of us who encounter scams to the forefront to help people who can drive action like legislators and bank fraud teams and everyone in this industry and a little bit about your book. as well. So let's start from the beginning. Tell us kind of what happened, how it happened.
00:03:06
Speaker
Okay. Well, I always start back from my divorce, which happened in 2019. And that was, it was a good thing. I was the one that decided I wanted the divorce. And Afterwards, I felt great. I felt free. I i just took the next four years to discover who I was as a single woman again. i moved to L.A. I'm from the Detroit area and I moved out to L.A. for a year because i I do some acting and then came back and settled on the west side of Michigan. And it was great. I had the time of my life. And after I moved here, I knew that this is where I wanted to be.
00:03:44
Speaker
um so But after like four years of moving around and all the stuff that I did, it just kind of...
Re-Entering the Dating World
00:03:51
Speaker
Everything just like hit me all at one time. i just suddenly went into this isolation period. And it was like everything, like the grief of the divorce. And it just like... I describe it as like I had been holding my breath for four years and I finally exhaled and it just all came crashing over me. So I'm through the spring and summer of 2023. was just isolating. Not to mention in the middle COVID aftermath there, right? There was a whole period of isolation for for everyone, but especially, you know, coming out of a relationship and going into that period is probably not easy as well as part of that. Yeah. So around the fall of 2023, I started to come out of it. I started feeling a little better. And I thought, you know what? I've spent this time alone. I've been alone a lot in my life. And maybe it's time to start dating again.
00:04:43
Speaker
And i I wasn't lonely for a romantic relationship. I was used to being alone. I was just feeling alone because I was isolated. And I just thought, well, maybe maybe this will help.
00:04:54
Speaker
And And we'll see what
A Promising Tinder Match
00:04:56
Speaker
happens. And so I went on Tinder. I created a profile and swiped on a few men. Nothing, nothing ever came of it. Chatted. Never. i hadn't gone on a date. And then I came across this profile that was just very intriguing. And it just like caught my eye and his. His profile description was so much like mine. It talked about like ah self-awareness and spirituality, which is something I'm really into. And it's something that I appreciate somebody else, somebody that's self-aware. And I just picked all that up from this profile. And then when I swiped, it was a match. And I remember feeling elated, like a little more than the other, you know, matches. I just was like, oh cool. And so I reached out right away and sent him a message and told him I really loved his profile and got a response pretty much right away. And we just started chatting over the next few days. And it just seemed it was so natural. It was just this equal give and take. And it just it moved.
00:05:55
Speaker
It moved really fast, of course, as all romance scams do. But I never felt like suffocated. Like sometimes when i I've had connections where they just move too fast and they, you know, start feeling, you start feeling suffocated. And I didn't feel that at all. It was just, just the way he would comment on my, he'd ask me a question, i'd answer it and he would just be like, oh, wow, that's really nice that you do that. It was just so focused on me. And so about two weeks in, It was about a week and a half when we so said we were falling for each other. And we had planned to meet the second weekend after, and he said but he said he might have to go out of town for a project that was
The Relationship's Rapid Progression
00:06:35
Speaker
getting behind. And he said he was from Indiana, but the project was in San Diego.
00:06:40
Speaker
And he was a freelance project manager for a construction company. And so he goes he goes to San Diego. He gets there. It turned out like he had to fire his workers and and like the the supervisors. And he was really distraught. And he even like kind of broke up with me. He just said he didn't know if he can handle a relationship right now. he's got you know He had this contract to think about.
00:07:04
Speaker
And so he pulled away and I was like, I was, you know, I was disappointed, but I'm like, all right, well, move on. And the next day he came back and said, I'm really sorry. i just got overwhelmed with emotion. And I realized it was a tactic he used to pull away and then come back. And he was just like, I'm now now I'm sure that you are the one for me. You're the you're the one I want to spend my life with.
00:07:28
Speaker
Like, wow. And it did. It worked. It pulled me in even deeper. And so he ended up having he thought he would only be there for a week or two. But because that he had to hire new people, it ended up being longer.
00:07:39
Speaker
And we had planned to meet in
Financial Troubles from Qatar
00:07:42
Speaker
December, the mid-December. I was to go to L.A. to see my friend, which is close to San Diego. And we were going to spend some time there and then fly back together. to where I am. And he was going to move here. like I was looking at houses. I was sending him pictures, pictures of engagement rings. we were taught like I just knew early on that I wanted to marry this man. And it just, obviously, it felt so real.
00:08:06
Speaker
And so I get to... We continued chatting. and First, we were just regular text messaging. And then when he um he ended up having to go to Qatar, out of the to to the Middle East, for another project, he said he had finished a project two years prior. And because of COVID, they had to get out quick. And he never got paid for the project. So over the course of the that last year, he was trying to get a hold of them to get payment. And they reached out to him and said, you know, okay, you know, Yes, let's um let's handle this payout. and so But he said he had to go there to get the payment.
00:08:42
Speaker
And this was when you were supposed to meet with him L.A.? He was going to come back the same time. he just was... Instead of meeting up in l L.A., he was going to go to Qatar during that time and then come back, fly back here and pick me up from the airport the following day. So the plan, like there wasn't another delay yet. So it didn't seem suspicious at this point.
00:09:09
Speaker
So when he got over there, we started using Skype and we talked on the phone like twice a day. We messaged. um He got over there and he had to hire a lawyer to help him with the documentation because he was meeting with his board of directors and he had to hire a translator.
00:09:24
Speaker
And so he was like he was sending me receipts that he was, you know, for these payments. And people have asked me, and didn't you think that was suspicious that he was sending you the receipts? And I thought, well, no, it it just felt like we're partners and he's being transparent with me.
00:09:41
Speaker
And so hold on hold on. Can I can i ask a question? So maybe just a few things kind of to break down in this before kind of going into to the the plot twist, which is coming. i think one question is, I thank you for sharing it the background, because I think that the past four years and how it started and what what state you were in when you were kind of ready to start a relationship does definitely um help.
00:10:07
Speaker
But in the relationship that you had between you, did you... I'm assuming there was a lot of texting and mostly maybe texting. Were there also phone calls and video calls? Like you heard his voice or? Yes, there were phone calls. We started talking like a couple days after matched. And in fact, that night that I mentioned that he broke up with me was a diversion because I wanted to have like a Skype video call.
00:10:34
Speaker
And so he actually did call me through video. And I like i saw his face. It matched the picture, his profile picture.
00:10:46
Speaker
But he said he couldn't hear me. So I feel like that was like his way of getting off call quickly. <unk> like i get but i I remember seeing him, but I remember I was so distracted by that like my sound and trying to get that to work. But I knew it was him. It was, but it wasn't, obviously. And so he hung up and then he had to go to a meeting. And then i said, well, call me later. We can try this later. i think I fixed it.
00:11:10
Speaker
And that's when he told me that he had to, you know, I'm just going to go home, go to bed. i i you know, in fact, I don't know if this is going to work. So every time there was one other time where there was a, I talked, I wanted to Skype and he created a diversion and he turned it around on me and started asking me like, were you with anybody after your marriage? Did you have have sex with anybody he was creating all this diversion and turning it around on me so uh i just finally gave up he just kept saying he was you know he he skypes all day he's bored with video calls he's like and i just gave up i couldn't quite understand why you wouldn't want to skype with your girlfriend almost to be fiance because we talked about you know getting married and all that but
00:11:51
Speaker
Yeah, so there was all of that. you know There was poems, you know the scripted poems and just all the sweet talk. and it was so yeah So then ah he's in Qatar and one day he messaged me. He's like, I can't log into my bank account.
00:12:06
Speaker
Can you try? Because he he couldn't the day before and then the next day he's like, if you could try, that would be great. I'll give you the login. So he gave me his you know username, password. I logged in. He walked me through making this transfer ah to the translator.
00:12:21
Speaker
And I saw his bank account. It had money. Everything, it nothing looked suspicious to me. And so i I did this transfer. I was able to download the receipt and send it to him. And it's just like, wow, it made me feel even more bonded with him because he trusted that information. it just like i would so I remember it's the message that said, just fell in love with you even more.
00:12:44
Speaker
And so the next day he had to pay the translator and he couldn't still couldn't get in.
Questioning Trust and Financial Decisions
00:12:50
Speaker
And I tried and I couldn't get in. So he had to go and he's like, I got to talk to my account manager. And then I talked to him at the end of the day and he said, i can't get in. i have to go in person for facial recognition. And the the branch that he had to go to was in England.
00:13:06
Speaker
So and he was supposed to have this meeting, like, I think in the next day. and i told him, I said, I would go to my financial advisor. But and he never asked for the money. He just said, you know, I have to raise the money somehow. And he said he he reached out to a friend. And I said, and that made me i I remember thinking if he asked me for the money, I'm going to feel really uncomfortable. But he didn't ask. So I said, I go to my financial advisor, but it takes a week or two to get the money. And he's like, you know, just wait, hold on. You know, don't like he didn't. didn't want to burden me with it.
00:13:38
Speaker
Which is, I think, a really, really important point here. Yeah. and When you trace it back to how things unfolded, he never asked you for the money. He definitely put you in a situation where if you feel like this is your partner, you would offer money if you could help. But he never directly asked and even said, no, I didn't i don't want to burden you with it. but But also when you care for a loved one, that's the most, you know, that's the thing you do, right? You take care of each other. And so Yeah. And the the next day, the day he was supposed to have his meeting was just so distraught. He's like, I'm supposed to have this meeting. I'm hoping I can reschedule. They were just they were disappointed. It felt unprofessional. And i my heart, I'm like, I just remember thinking that day, like, I have to do something for him. I have to. And I couldn't like because I didn't have access. It was twenty one thousand he needed. And i didn't have I'm like, how can I do this? And I'm like, wait a minute. There are Yeah. I can go to a bank, go to my bank and see if I can get a loan.
00:14:36
Speaker
So that night i I messaged him and I said, i'm I'm going to try to take some loans out. Just please let me do this. Let me help you. If your friend comes through, then I can just pay off the loans. And he we talked on the phone and he started, he cried. He's like, no one's ever loved me like this before. And it was just so heartfelt.
00:14:57
Speaker
Scams don't begin with money moves. They begin when trust is manipulated one message at a time. Rangers AI builds ScamRanger to help step in before the damage, detecting scam messages and guiding people while they still have the power to choose. And on the ScamRangers podcast, we bring you the voices on the front lines, experts, advocates, and leaders fighting back.
00:15:19
Speaker
Because stopping scams means protecting people before they're pulled in Learn more at rangersai.com.
00:15:29
Speaker
I'm going to ask you and a kind of a dry question before we move on. Were you at that point thinking to yourself, I might not see this money again, not because he's a scammer, but because maybe his situation won't work out or something like that?
00:15:42
Speaker
You know, why do you say that? Because right after, I'll get to the to what happened next, but there was a point where I said, okay, I even said the words, if he takes off with my money, could I live with it? And I i don't I guess I never heard the phrase romance scam. That's exactly what that is. But I remember asking myself, could I live with this if my money was gone or if something didn't work out?
00:16:07
Speaker
And the answer was yes, because i i had the money to pay it off in my retirement and I would know that I did it for love. And I knew I wouldn't care because my heart would be broken. and that's exactly the truth. Yeah. So I did. i had that moment. It's like those little moments of clarity. So I went to my bank and I got a $15,000 loan with a $5,000 cash advance on a credit card. So that was $20,000. And then I had a thousand of my own money. And I said, well, what's the best way to get the money to you? And he said, you know, Bitcoin ATM, it's it's quick. It'll get right to me. And he was telling me, like, i I've never heard of Bitcoin ATMs, but he said, you know, I'll get a wallet and And he sent me a video, how do you how you know how to set up the account when I get there, how to use it. And so over the course of four or five days, I sent him $21,000 and like, I don't know, $3,000 chunks. One was $8,000. And having all that money on me, i was so nervous. But then there was the issue of the ATM fees, which were pretty hefty. And so I knew he needed more money. And I said, how how are we going to do this? Maybe I can go to a different bank and take out a different loan because the other ones wouldn't have hit the my credit report yet.
00:17:20
Speaker
So I can probably get another loan. So I managed to get a $5,000 loan. So that was the $5,000. What were the fees for the 21,000? Well, it was probably not far off, but I never even asked him. I just like... Oh, he talked about the fees.
00:17:33
Speaker
Yeah. And I knew there were fees and I i looked it up. I Googled fees and, that you know, I know i I'm like, that probably wasn't far off. It might not have been that much, but I just rounded up like here. Here's another five thousand. I'll get the money back. So I got another loan and ah sent that last payment. And I think, yeah, that was over the course of six days.
00:17:52
Speaker
And then I just wow, I just felt wonderful that I could
The Power of Love Bombing
00:17:56
Speaker
help him. I had a moment where I'm like, what did I just do? But, you know, but when I look back, it felt like it was like a faded feeling. Like i just I look back and i I could totally feel like I was hypnotized because of the love bombing and the the chemicals in the brain that are way on overdrive. You know, that's exactly what they do. And it's like knew something was wrong, but it's like it's like having a dream that you can't remember. You know, something's. happened, but you don't know what, you know.
00:18:24
Speaker
I did want to also ask when you went to the k crypto ATMs, was it the same place every day? Just a few technical questions. that Like, did you see anyone? Did you see any warning signs? And where did it happen? Was it ah at ah at a shop or?
00:18:38
Speaker
a good question. Yes. The first one I went to because he told me to go to CoinFlip because it's they have the less, you know, the lower fees. So it was in a strip mall. And the first one I went to was it it was the wrong one. But I'm like, I found out that there's two different stores in that cut that strip mall that have Bitcoin ATMs. But I remember a warning sign that came up and said, if someone gave you this QR code, stop.
00:19:03
Speaker
And it it could be a scam. and But it lists like, you know, i paying the IRS utility bills and never mentioned romance scam. And I remember saying to myself, oh, no, that doesn't apply to me. We're in love. So I yeah, I did see those. Definitely food for thought for the fraud prevention community. Yeah. I mean, I'm actually want to create, I think I want to create a sign that specifically talks about romance scams and see it take it to these A-teams. So we you put this up because if I saw the word romance scam, it might it not have stopped me in the moment, but it might have made me stop and think before sending more money. So, um... But then I went to a couple other ATMs and then I settled on one that was in a smoke shop because hardly anybody went in there and the employees were, they stayed in the back unless they had a customer. So I felt safe and I felt like no one was going to question what I was doing. And and if if they were to question what you were doing, did you feel like you're part of something that shouldn't be discussed? Like, why did you need a privacy I can get? Like you have a lot of money on you and it's scary, but what were you worried about? Yeah, that's a good question. i i don't know if something subconsciously in me knew that this is not right or someone's going to wonder like why. Like investing money is one thing, but with all the money I had and I was probably there for a long time, um i was worried about the bank when I went to the bank. Like the one, the first teller, I took out $12,000 after I got the loan and
00:20:31
Speaker
He said jokingly, but probably not jokingly, what do you do with all the money? And i I don't remember what I said, but I was just worried about people seeing me take out that much cash. and Yeah, it's scary to walk around with so much cash for sure.
00:20:45
Speaker
So then he... He said he had his meeting and it was a success. And that was the day I left for LA.
Financial Red Flags and Realizations
00:20:52
Speaker
And then he was supposed to have a meeting the following Monday with ah the financier on the payout. And so I remember when I was in l LA, I just remember feeling ecstatic that we were supposed to meet that week when I came back. So I was just like on such a high.
00:21:04
Speaker
And so I talked to him that Monday morning and he said that meeting was a success, ah but they had an agreement that he would do an inspection on the property. And I'm like, oh, God, i just knew right then and there he wasn't coming home. He wasn't going to come back that Friday. And he said he was going to try. but then he asked if maybe I could handle the payout process while he does the inspection. This this is a setup for the next part of the scam. So I filled out a um beneficiary form and he sent me a login to a crypto platform because we were going to do it crypto. And he asked me, like, what do you think? Should would do a bank check or crypto? And he's like, well, bank check is quicker or it will take longer and it has higher fees. So he kind of he asked me for my opinion, but, course, pushed me in the direction. Guided you to crypto? yes Yeah. Yes, of course. Making it sound like it was my idea. So then I created a login and then sent an email to customer service. He was instructing me on how to do all this.
00:22:04
Speaker
And then I got a and ah message saying to reach out to this. His name was Professor Beck and he was on WhatsApp. So I was to reach out to him on WhatsApp and then So he told me the next steps. He said, you know, he verified the account and said to send the beneficiary form and my driver's license, which I did. He confirmed all of that. And this payout, by the way, was $10.1 million. dollars And $5 million, he said, would be hours after paying everybody. So the account manager said that the money should show up within 24 to 48 hours. And sure enough, two days later. In fact, that was two years ago today that all of that
00:22:43
Speaker
that I checked the account, the money was there. And so I asked the account manager, I'm like, how do I convert this to cash and get it into my account? And and that he I asked him before and he said, once the money's there, we'll talk about that, I'll help you. and then But they talk then he tells me there's a $50,000 activation fee for to get the money out. And I'm like, okay, well, can you take it out of the money? And they're like, no, it has to be paid up front, but it's a bond payment, so you'll get it back. And I'm like, okay. hey, this is weird. Why wouldn't anyone tell him like that there's this fee? I thought the bank fees were high. The fees for their this are apparently high. So I was really like, what i said i so you know I knew something was wrong, but I still wasn't thinking scam. I thought maybe he was being scammed by this company.
00:23:28
Speaker
And so... I was really like my heart sank and I'm like, all right, well, I guess I could go to my financial advisor and see if I can take out money. And I was very hesitant because I thought $26,000, I could live with another $50,000.
00:23:42
Speaker
I don't know. I would need that the money to pay off the, you know, for my retirement to pay off the loans. I didn't have enough to do $50,000 off those loans. So I talked to my financial advisor and something told me to tell him the whole story.
00:23:57
Speaker
You know, like I could have said I need money for a down payment on a house. But I think at this point I was feeling so frustrated and so isolated. I had to tell somebody. Nobody knew what was going on. My friends knew I was in love, but then no one knew that this money was involved. And so he, him and his team are trained in romance fraud. And he said, I i hate to be the one to tell you this, Beth. I think you're in a romance scam. And I'm like, What?
00:24:21
Speaker
I was just like, this this is he never asked for money. That was the big thing. And he had me on the phone for an hour and I listened and he sent me some links and ah to like articles about romance scams. And I read them and i have a pretty good professional like relationship with my financial advisor. I think that was the other thing. I couldn't lie to him. So but the more I read and listened, the more it was like that would make a lot of sense. you know But I told him, I said, i i i still my heart doesn't believe it.
00:24:54
Speaker
I'm not ready to cut him off. i i just I need some time to wrap my head around all of this. And he's like, well, tell him I'm out of town and you can't get the money until you sign a funds release release form and you can't do it until I'm there. So he's out of town for two weeks and it would take another seven to 10 days. So he's like, that will stall you. Yeah.
00:25:12
Speaker
He was great. He just walked. And he was the one that said, i said, i am so embarrassed. And he said, don't be embarrassed. He's like, you'd be surprised how much this happens. And so I went on for the next week just playing him along and writing my poems and telling him how much I love him. And and I was able to... I think yeah I was able to keep up a good facade. Like, I think I was able to hide my disappointment behind the fact that he he wasn't home and we had this this other delay. And so about, it was a week later, I'm like, I think I'm ready to to cut him off. And I was with my family. my ah My cousins are over on the east side of the state and we were celebrating Christmas. It was December 30th. We were celebrating late and everybody knew. And I've had nothing but support from my family. And they're like, why don't you do it here while you have the support of your family?
00:26:03
Speaker
So my my cousin comes up with like, they're like, just block him. I'm like, no, he needs to know that I know. So my cousin writes this five line poem, basically telling F off.
00:26:14
Speaker
So you said that you thought that he's being scammed. And then you went to your financial advisor who um kind of amazing, amazing, by the way, I just kudos to that person who that had the information that gave you the information that was, we had Martina Dove a few months ago, and she talked about how to talk to to scam victims who don't know. And and one of the the things was, okay, let's delay it for a little bit and see how how he reacts.
00:26:40
Speaker
So I'm curious to see what what was his reaction and when did you understand that it's not him being scammed by the company, but that's that he is a
Confronting the Scam
00:26:49
Speaker
scammer? ah Well, that was like, I talked to my financial advisor like literally an hour later and and what he told me, that's when I'm like, oh, it's him.
00:26:59
Speaker
Okay. So you didn't confront him yet until Christmas celebration. Yeah. It was December 22nd, two years ago. And it was December 30th when I'm with my family. And so my cousin writes that little poem. It was funny. It was funny. It rhymed. It told him basically to F off. You're a romance scammer. And so I sent it. And I sent it, I think, via email and on Skype. And I blocked him on my Gmail and Skype. And then, I don't know, I'm like, what if he's real and it broke his heart? What if...
00:27:31
Speaker
god and i so Because I still was doubting. My heart was still so i was still so in love. That didn't stop the love. And um so in Gmail, the blocked message is just going to spam. So the next day, what did I do? I went to the spam. I had to know. And of course, there's this email saying, I couldn't believe it until I messaged you. You know, how could you ever think this of me? And hit his thing that he used against me was fear. You know, are you going to push away any man who ever loves you? And ah I'll keep loving you until the specks in your mind clear. That was literally a lie. But at the time, it was like, oh my God. And of course, it drew me back in.
00:28:11
Speaker
And I'm like, OK, I have to know for sure. I have to play this out. I have to go back, but I'm not giving. And my friends knew. And I told one of my friends, I'm going back just for accountability. So, you know, i have to play this out. And I knew I'm like, I'm not giving more money. I can't knowing all of this until I know for sure. So it was only like for two days and I just felt so horrible. And I i kept apologizing. And he's like, I forgive you and I can't stay mad at you. I you know i love you and I can't stop loving you. and But you broke me. you know You just kept going back and forth and just punishing me. and so That's like classic borderline personality disorder behavior right there. Yeah, sliding. And so he like, I remember like two days after that, i actually was actually meditating and I i just heard this voice end it. And I'm like, and I'm like, I need to end this like real or not. I just need to end it And I felt relief at the thought of that. And that night we're talking and he said, what if I had taken my own life? And then I'm like, Okay. And I i didn't say anything that night, but I thought, real or not, i I don't want a relationship when someone's threatening suicide to make it sound like it was my fault.
00:29:18
Speaker
And so ah the next day i read up, I'm like, let me refresh my memory. My heart's too involved. So I read these articles on romance fraud and I'm like, this is a scam. It is. It's a scam. And so my coworker is new too. And one coworker helped me write this long, like cutoff email, basically confronting him on every aspect of why it's a scam and you're a manipulator. And so I said that and I didn't want to, like, I blocked him. Like that night, I just turned my phone on do not disturb. And I just, i didn't want to see any response till the next day. And I thought he would just say, fine, it's over. But One last ditch effort. He says, he's like, I don't I don't think anything I say. oh you're overreacting. That's what he said.
00:30:00
Speaker
And I don't think anything I say or do will matter until I'm home. And the lie is the fear in your mind and everything it's creating. And you're going to get sick mentally and emotionally. And I don't want that. And I'm like, oh, my, this is even worse. He just did a 180 from like you broke my heart to like now, you know, you're just I don't know. it abuse and and was abusive.
00:30:20
Speaker
That was, yeah, that was emotional and psychological abuse. And then I said, my last response was, I don't trust you. I don't believe you. I don't want to talk to you. But if you're real, you know where I live. Bring me my money and maybe we'll talk. Never heard from them again. They left the Skype platform and then I was left with and you know devastation and heartbreak,
Turning Devastation into Advocacy
00:30:41
Speaker
of course. But I'm just so glad I listened to my financial advisor and because I know a lot of victims, they won't hear anything, their family or family. And that breaks my heart. and i And I understand why, because it is really hard for the heart to accept that anyone could ever do something like that. So then it was over and I was so grateful that I didn't send 50,000 more. And yeah, and then I was strong enough to to get out because I had a good amount of self-awareness before and I was already pretty grounded. you know
00:31:10
Speaker
had pretty good self-esteem. So I think that made it a little bit easier for me to know that I'll be okay and stand on my own. and you know Wow. Well, thank you so much, first of all, for sharing the story. And again, I i wanted to say that financial advisor angel that was sent to meet you. I wish we all had someone like that in our life too. dedicated my book to him and I just saw him not long ago. He bought a bunch of copies of my book and he's giving them to come.
00:31:40
Speaker
So first of all, again, thank you. And um i think just listening to your story here speak and you know, you're an intelligent woman. You have a lot of life experience. You've been through relationships, but just to show that this could happen to anyone and those steps along the way as fraud fighters, just thinking about all the financial interaction points, let's call them the interfaces you had with the system, with the bank, the questions that were asked. You said it was a long, like, what are you going to do with all that money? I think that that was a few years ago, and I'm hoping that now financial institutions deploy more caution in that line of questioning, really trying to understand what are you going to do with that money rather than by the way, comment. i think there is a lot more awareness today, and hopefully it's deployed within processes. Yes, think. Since that happened, though, you have actually stepped up to more than kind of to show the strength yourself, but actually to advocate for romance scam victim. So I'd love for you to share both kind of from the perspective of you've spoken to people with influence across the industry. I see you on LinkedIn, very active, which is how we connected. And um I'd also love to hear about the book, how it came to be, and we'll definitely put a link in the show notes to the book. so Awesome. Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:58
Speaker
Well, um during that week before I cut them off, I said right away that I'm not going to let this destroy me. You know, this is going to be really hard. I know the grief process and I know how to go through it. It's different for every situation, but the concept's the same. So I'm like, I'm I will do, you know, I'm going to hurt, but I'm going to. And I remember saying I'm going to advocate for others. And so i in fact, one of the first songs I listened to is um I Will Survive by Gloria Gaynor. That became my favorite song. And so i I started connecting on LinkedIn. I think Anna Rowe was the first person I, ah well, first of all, the Christmas night, 2023, I was in a hotel room in the Detroit area watching the Tinder
Supporting Others Through Shared Experiences
00:33:43
Speaker
Swindler.
00:33:43
Speaker
So oh wow what that was a horrible, that was three days after I found out. So I reached out to so Cecilia, right? Cecilia Fianhoi. And I messaged her. i I know she's pretty busy, so I didn't hear back. And then i I was looking her up online. And then I found Anna Rowe and saw that she does a support group every other Sunday. So I got in with that. Yeah.
00:34:07
Speaker
and then she mentioned aaron west and then i reached out to aaron west and um it just spiraled from there and i started making all these connections and sharing my i think sharing my story like you know it's easy to talk about the money that was stolen But like a lot, I know a lot of people don't share the emotional part of it And that's what I was trying to do was share that part of it so people can understand that there's also emotions behind the money. And then as far as the book, I remember thinking I wanted to write one when I didn't know how to, I mean, it was so early. It was like, I didn't really want to think much about it at the time, but like, how could I make it unique? And then it hit me. I'm like, well, why don't I publish the text messages? So one day, like three months after it ended, I i remember sitting on the floor and I'm crying and i just stood up, opened my laptop and I start typing. I'm like, well, OK, first thing I want to do is probably share the story, you know, and then I had it i had the story written out for law enforcement for when I reported it, but I'm like, let's add more detail.
00:35:07
Speaker
And then um started copying and pasting and transferring text messages. That was not the easiest thing to do at the time, but I knew it was for a greater good. And then I just kind of filled in what else. I'm like, well, I got i i got to have resources. as That goes without saying. And maybe sharing, you know, signs of romance scams and statistics. And so it just kind of all came together in pieces.
00:35:31
Speaker
And um I had the title pretty much right away. um my ah My friend and who was in L.A. is an actor and we talked about a movie called When Swiping Right Goes Wrong. So I had that part of the title and then I added the Diary of a Romance Scam and then It happened. It was like, you know, we all I actually wrote a book 15, 10 years ago, like a little book of poems after my mom died. I wrote poems. But so this is like my second book, technically. But it was just like, you know, there have number of times I've said, i'm going to do this, but never follow through like the advocating And like, wow, I'm doing it. and it just took on a life of its own. And I also started an LLC that I'm working on ah getting up and running called a a Voice for Unrequited Love.
00:36:16
Speaker
And I want to, I would love to travel. I'm working on a presentation now, but I'd love to travel and speak at venues to educate people about romance fraud, share some of the text messages in my presentation. So that's like if the book wasn't enough. i'm like, okay, I need to keep going. So I started that and then just like god i I was always open to doing articles and podcasts and news stories. So a lot of like fight cybercrime.org and like Aaron West and Anna Rowe, they all like, you know, if someone approaches them about doing a story, they ask me and I've, you know, always been willing. And and again, that just like kind of took I'm doing a new story tomorrow, actually. Yeah. So, yeah, but it's been really
Advocacy on a National Stage
00:36:58
Speaker
cool. I think one of the coolest things was when Marsha Blackburn, Senator Blackburn, put forth the Romance Scam Prevention Act and driving to D.C. last March to be there when it went to this when it went to the senate ah Senate committee hearing. So tell us a little more about that.
00:37:15
Speaker
Yeah. So um I think it it was Kathy Waters with Advocating Against Romance Scammers said that. I'm so glad that all the people that you mentioned were on the podcast. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Oh, that's great. Everyone, Anna, Cecilia, Erin, Kathy. Yeah. no but Maybe we'll get her. So, so her yeah, sorry. Go ahead. So Kathy Waters advocating against romance. Senator Blackburn's team reached out to her wanting to interview a survivor of romance fraud.
00:37:47
Speaker
And ah so she recommended, I told her, yeah, recommend me. So we were going to do this via Zoom. And I'm like, you know what? I said, can People actually show up to the hearing and they said, yeah. So I'm like, it was, this was like days before and I was like, it's too much to fly. So you know what? I'm just going to drive.
00:38:04
Speaker
so i did. And it was fun. It was a great, I love road trips. My best friend lives in Baltimore. So I got, she's only 45 minutes away. So I got to see her, but. ah So i I drove there and sat in on the hearing and um she gave me a shout out for being there for, you know driving nine hours. And I talked to her in her office afterwards and I didn didn't share my whole story, but just kind of gave her a synopsis. And so I think she said some of the senators were, it made them think to see an actual survivor there. And then so I got to do this story, you know, in person on Capitol Hill, which was really cool.
00:38:40
Speaker
And it was just, yeah. So it just it makes me feel vindicated. It's kind of like being silenced by the scammer. It's just like me saying, you you know, you don't get to silence me anymore.
00:38:51
Speaker
you know and then And then being able to help people. i think the biggest thing is so many victims suffer in silence and shame. And I learned pretty quick that it wasn't my fault after the doing the research of how they how the scammers operate and what they do to your basically your psyche, you know your brain.
00:39:10
Speaker
It's biological, psychological. You know, it's it's it's not our fault. And I just that's the biggest thing I want to help victims understand and people that are part of the victim blaming, you know, the victim blamers.
00:39:25
Speaker
To that point, if you had one thing that you would want Congress, you you talked about, you know, the Senate hearing. But if you want it, like if you had one message to to Congress, what what would that be? Oh, it's hard to pick one.
00:39:40
Speaker
It's a much more serious crime than people realize. um Victims and just that, the victims, we're not at fault. We are manipulated and victimized into these scams. And one of the biggest things I'm advocating for is changing the language by not you know saying not saying we fall for scams or fall victim to scams. We're manipulated into them and I think if law enforcement, if they changed the wording of from losing money to money, you know. Money stolen. from well Money stolen. Yes. And that is one of the biggest that's in my presentations and it's in the book and everything. So, yeah, just I think it would help.
00:40:20
Speaker
I think more victims would come forward and then they would see the really how bad it is. don't know how bad it is and how many people, how many people this happens to. And if you had one message for many of our listeners are financial institution fraud fighters, just thinking about your financial journey there along the way from from the moment you started taking out loans to the moment, maybe to the repercussions, now the aftermath of the scam and and the need to.
00:40:48
Speaker
repay and and you know give back the money that that was stolen from you but you've taken loans to that you need to return what would that message be to financial institution processes and you know to fraud fighters to victims well your message to to financial institutions like what could they have done better along the way I think the questioning like if that teller would have pursued the questioning a little further To learn what the red flags are.
00:41:16
Speaker
And, you know, if there was a way they could pull the person aside, if if they're willing and talk to them about these scams, you know, not and it's such a delicate balance because we can't tell they can't tell people what to do with their money. But if they could just maybe me come up with something to say, like to help educate the person, just to plant the seed in their mind that this could possibly be a scam. you know, let them know the red flags. And so maybe push a little harder with that. And I don't know. It's like, does it work if it could work for one person, you know? And I did. I asked my my bank. I'm like, I went back about a year ago and said, are you trained in romance fraud? And they said, well, a little bit. They touch on it and they just, they believe that it help happens to elderly, which it does. But I don't think they realize that it can happen to anybody. doesn't matter what your age is.
00:42:12
Speaker
Yeah, i would I would say that sextortion that happens to teens is some form of a romance scam. It's not romance in the sense that it's a longer relationship, but it is using manipulation in the same ways, right? it's It's preying on the psyche of that individual at that age. So it can happen at any age in different ways.
00:42:32
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And if financial institutions, like I said, came up, I don't know if my answer was clear, because it's hard, you know, it's like, just come up with a plan, you know, when they see this to to help. And they may, you know, they may customers might to say no and just walk out. But to know that you've done your due diligence, you know, would be everything. I wish they I would love to see him accountable.
00:42:55
Speaker
You know, I was I was a victim of one of those like fake online shopping scams the same year, actually early on. And I told my bank and disputed the charge. They gave me back the money, no questions asked, and so and like gave me the benefit of the doubt and said, if this money is still in your account three months, then you keep it. So they gave it back to me while they investigated. And I don't think it's any different with the romance scam.
00:43:20
Speaker
Why couldn't they put this 26,000 back in my account and then investigate it I had all the proof in the world. It's no different, you know? So it could be more accountable. They're not liable yet. Yes, they're not liable yet.
00:43:38
Speaker
Beth, I wanted to thank you so much for for being so brave, for sharing your story, for being an advocate. And i agree, the more we know about these scams, the more people we save from them, right?
00:43:52
Speaker
In advance, planting the seeds of doubt eventually very, very carefully with your financial advisor is what helped you realize. And again, handle that really well with the delay aspect, not saying, OK, we'll stop everything, but let's let's give you some time. It gave you know the courtesy and and the and the space for yourself.
00:44:13
Speaker
and And I think that's really, really a big part of empathy in this in this scenario. And I recommend everyone to read the book and we'll definitely put a link to that in our show notes. And one thing that you're hopeful about for this year I'm hopeful that this will become come more and more to light, that romance fraud will be more recognized, taken more seriously, and more um protocols put in place to help victims.
00:44:44
Speaker
You know, I've seen the progress that law enforcement has done and um they've already had some big seizures of, you know, crypto. we've We've seen that happen. So I think they're taking it more seriously. And I think that's only going to improve and more education and support for victims that are going through the trauma to help them understand the nature of it and why it's not their fault. So. Thank you. And i wish you to continue to get stronger and to continue to shine this light. And again, thank you so much for your time. And I'm wishing you a wonderful year.
00:45:21
Speaker
I really hope this will be the year of strength and victory for