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00:00:01
From Forest Ranger to Scam Ranger: Building a National Security Approach to Scam Prevention, A conversation with Jamie Simmons, Head of Fraud Prevention, Investigations and Riak Management at Capita lOne
153 Plays1 day ago
In this episode, Ayelet Biger-Levin sits down with Jamie Simmons to explore how scams have evolved from traditional fraud into a global, AI-driven threat rooted in human psychology.
From his early days as a park ranger to leading fraud prevention at Capital One, Jamie shares why fighting scams today requires a shift toward prevention before manipulation happens and not just stopping payments after the fact.
🔑 Key Takeaways
- Scams are not just fraud—they’re social engineering at scale
- Impact spans all age groups and all financial products
- The real opportunity is moving “left of boom”—before money moves
- Stopping scams requires collaboration across banks, telecom, and tech
- Data sharing is essential—but still limited by policy
- Treating people as victims (not mistakes) is critical to progress
💡 Standout Insight: “We’re not going to win by just stopping payments. That’s too late.”
About the Host
Ayelet Biger-Levin is the Founder of RangersAI and host of Scam Rangers, where she brings together leaders across industries to tackle the human side of scams—combining fraud expertise, psychology, and real-world prevention strategies.
🔗 Resources
- Global Anti-Scam Alliance https://gasa.org/
- National Elder Fraud Coordination Center - https://www.fightelderfraud.org/
About the Host
Ayelet Biger-Levin is the Founder and CEO of RangersAI and the host of Scam Rangers, a podcast exploring the human side of scams and the people working to protect consumers from financial and emotional harm.
Through her work at RangersAI and her leadership within the Global Anti-Scam Alliance, Ayelet partners with financial institutions, policymakers, and advocates to elevate scam prevention beyond controls and technology toward trust-based, customer-centric protection.
Be sure to follow her on LinkedIn and reach out to learn about her additional activities in this space:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayelet-biger-levin/
RangersAI: https://www.rangersai.com/
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Transcript
The Impact of Scams and Response Strategies
00:00:01
Speaker
I go back to the bank robber story. Like we need to get to a point where there are 20 folks who show up when a bank is robbed but and we need 20 people showing up when someone gets scammed and then we all do something about it in order to stop it because it's gonna take that holistic approach. You think about it, someone robs a bank, they get couple thousand dollars.
00:00:19
Speaker
our Our consumers across the world are getting robbed hundreds and millions and billions of dollars and rarely is anybody showing up. So we need to be able to shape and change the ah you know the dynamic here in that way is kind of how to bring it back to the bank. We need that type of response. like It's no questions. Within seconds, there are 20 squad cars, whatever. It's not just squad guards. You have whenever something happens, you have the fire department, the ambulance and the police. know we Right. So how do we bring all those like the psychologist, all that to the the scam victims and those? start So this is like, that's what we need. But that's why it requires a national strategy and support. And everyone needs to be asking for that as the as a consumer, because that's why we have it for bank because people were scared. well Why are they not scared that their entire life savings is not being, you know, there's real lives.
00:01:08
Speaker
that are online here. And so when are we going to make that the response and and take it seriously? Okay.
Introducing the Scam Rangers Podcast and Jamie Simmons
00:01:17
Speaker
So welcome to scam rangers today. I'm particularly excited about our scam ranger because we've been talking about fighting scams and being scam ranger, which is really guiding consumers and customers to safety. And today we have with us someone who used to be a real forest ranger. I'm so excited to have Jamie Simmons, who is head of fraud prevention investigations and risk management at Capital One.
00:01:45
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast, Jamie. So happy to have you here. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.
00:01:53
Speaker
to scam rangers a podcast about the human side of fraud and the people who are on a mission to protect us. I'm your host Ayelet Bigger Levine and I'm passionate about driving awareness and solving this problem.
00:02:13
Speaker
So let's start with your career craft. It's really unique. You did start as a forest granger. we'd love to hear about that. Moved into law enforcement and then ended up in Capital One. So tell us a little bit about your journey and how that infuses your perspective in your current role.
Jamie's Journey from Park Ranger to Fraud Prevention
00:02:32
Speaker
No, happy to. but I think the best part to do is like take you back to kind of my childhood and some things that kind of motivated me. and And at the time, probably didn't know it was what was driving like where ultimately wanted to be. But there were a few kind of moments that kind of, you know, one, I grew up in a really small town and from a military kind of background. So the whole protect and serve really kind of resonated and disciplined. And then, you know, there were a few childhood moments that just stood out that kind of shaped kind of the career that I got into. And so two things. It was my bike got stolen and then my clothes got stolen out of my locker at school. So those two things happened, which were always like, why did this happen? And it was always a little curiosity, like, why are people stealing things? But then the third thing happened where... You know, me and my brother and a bunch of other kids were playing in the yard one day in small town. So you kind of know everything that's going on. We heard all these sirens, et cetera. Long story short, the local bank got robbed. And so my brother and I ran over there saying like young kids, hey, cops and robbers, we're going to help try to try to find this thing. But anyway, we went to go like, you know, can we help? You know, and of course they all went, no, get out of here. we know small town. We're kind of like, oh, well we'll we'll scram. But, you know, there's 20 cop cars you know everywhere. So we walked down the road. We'll Lo and behold, we we heard this dog barking on the corner in like a big doghouse. My brother and I like, what's interesting? The dog kept barking. We get closer and closer. Well, we get really close and look in this doghouse and there's money all over the place. So dog barking, money outside of this thing. And then bank just got robbed. So we go back and say, hey, you sure we can't help? Because we think, I mean, money, dog barking, they might have found the bank robber. So long story short, we ultimately ended up tipping off where the bank robber was and they found him in that doghouse. And so that was at an early age, I started to go, wow, this is really cool. How do I get into something like that? So I had a passion immediately to like go study criminology, criminal justice. So that was my passion in school was like, hey, I want to ultimately help solve crime, do something better for the the world type of thing. So that's how I kind of got started as early age of like, I want to do something that's mission-based and give back. But it all started with like, A few things got stolen, then a bank robbery, and like, hey, I could make a career out of something like this. I went and got my education, criminology, criminal justice, and that brings me to how I became a park ranger initially was I went to new University of Memphis where they had a park ranger federal law enforcement program where you, while you're going to school, you get certified become a federal park ranger, and then you apply to different parks as you go. So I was lucky enough to get accepted into that program and graduated, and then ah my first job was...
00:05:05
Speaker
at Mesa Verde National Park as a federal park ranger, mainly for the law enforcement part, but you also got trained in wildland firefighting. So anyway, it was a very a lot of experiences all roped into one, which then led me to get other law enforcement jobs and then ultimately landed at Capital One because I had a bunch of friends that all had finance and computer degrees, they're like, hey, with your background, criminology, criminal justice, want to
Capital One's Approach to Fraud Prevention
00:05:30
Speaker
do things. Hey, we have a fraud department at Capital One. What do you think? I was like, well, there's not a lot of people with the same background, et cetera. I'll give it shot. a Long story short, 30 years later, here we are. We're still working at Capital One and still fulfilling the mission of working with law enforcement, and trying to make the world a safer place. So that's kind of like my story, how I got here and the passion why i did it. But that's kind of kind of how it all manifests itself, which is just a different background than traditional you would think.
00:05:55
Speaker
I mean, in today's world, it's not shocking that law enforcement people go work in the banking industry. But 30 years ago when I started it, it was not a thing. And so it allowed me to kind of just make a career out of that and just start working with industry partners and that sort of thing. So that's kind of my story how i got there. That's really interesting. And I think it's interesting because how banks were robbed 30 years ago and how they're robbed today is very different, right? It's mostly digital today. But you kept with the journey and the mission and just tackle it from different perspectives. And also, I'm just thinking about that young boy who helped, you know, identify the criminal and say the bank that must have really impacted. yeah ah Was there any news in the newspaper about that? but It was one of those like it wasn't like officially we were trying to help. You know, it's one of those like, hey, i'm I'm sure they would have found it. It was only like four houses down. It's a small town. You would have found the person anyway. But it was just kind of ironic that we walk over there asking, can we help? What are you looking for? And they're kind of like, go away, kid. And we go, OK, we walk around the street and kind of go, well, that's kind of odd. And i mean let's just go back and tell somebody. And they eventually went over there. But. I mean, we believe we found the bank way as a kid, but I'm sure they were already pretty close to it. But ah the guy wasn't last in the doghouse for very long. But it it was that moment that at the time was the thing that really made me want to study, like, why do people do what they do? Go get a degree and see what you can do with it type of thing. So, that yeah, it was was impactful.
00:07:22
Speaker
So tell me what perspectives today, or maybe tell us a little bit about your role and what perspectives does your background bring into your current role that's a little different from the traditional fraud backgrounds. And I will say, i don't know that we can really say that there are traditional fraud paths because ah nobody wakes up or is it as an 18 year old says, I want to be a firefighter at a financial institution. People tend to stumble into this role from customer support or background in technology or different things. But How do you think that um your background, which is unique even with the past that I talked about, shape your current role and tell us maybe a little bit more about what you do?
00:08:02
Speaker
yeah Yeah, that's a great question. So, um you know, today I head up the special investigations and fraud prevention plus risk management. And within that, there is a law enforcement team, an internal fraud team, a traditional fraud investigations team where you're looking at all the new trends and MOs and those types of things. And in an external strategic engagement role. So it's not just from a law enforcement external, but how do we work with industry partners, new innovations, new things like that. And so when you sum all that up, I think the unique perspective that allowed me to take my background and then parlay it into this is I always had an um a sense for how you had to bring in an external perspective and not just look at everything inside your own wall. So like when you worked in law enforcement, you had to work with a lot of different folks, a lot of different sectors in order to kind of solve your thing or or work on your thing and not just rely on information that's in front of you. You use a lot of things. And so over time, was able to bring that perspective to Capital One perspective. and just the industry at large of like, you can't just solve this fraud or scam problem by in your own silo and your own company type of thing. And we started that concept just many, many years ago. The whole collaboration from an industry perspective is something that, quite honestly, I think that's
00:09:09
Speaker
one of the things I learned from the law enforcement aspect, you got to learn to collaborate and work with others, you know, that aren't just in your specific field to solve it. And so that's one thing I think is, you know, it's been able to like use that from a career perspective and adapt that and continue to be the core thing of today. I mean, that how we have to work together as an industry to solve these things. And so it's one of those, don't think of your job as just enforcement. Don't just think your job as you're the bank, you're the finance, you're the telecom, et cetera. It's We're all and whether your role is an investigative analyst or, a you know, a chemical engineer that now owns a process. We have people with many, many different backgrounds and it's all how do you pull all those perspectives together and make something out of it And I think my investigative background allowed me to kind of leverage all those expertise together and put it, you know, put it together, kind of solve these complex problems. Let's get
The Evolution of Scams and Industry Collaboration
00:09:57
Speaker
to the problems. Let's talk about scams and how it de differs from fraud.
00:10:00
Speaker
i think we'll start by really looking at ah at scam trends and how they're evolving. You see a Capital One from your vantage point. And then we'll talk a little bit more about that collaboration that you mentioned and approaches to to fighting scams. So what are you seeing in terms of the evolution, how scams are starting to evolve and how they just differ from the classic fraud, like new account fraud, account takeover and synthetic identities? Yeah, I know. I think you we've all been well versed that you know that it is a big problem.
00:10:30
Speaker
you know It's billions of dollars. You can dispute how many billions or not, but it's it's massive. It's a national security threat, all those things. I know many people on your shows have given us those details. So we agree with all that.
00:10:41
Speaker
And we um but like what we're seeing in particular and what I think, you know, what resonates is, you know, this is obviously growing in leaps and bounds. And it's not just an elder thing. It's not just a young thing. It's hitting all of us. It's hitting not just ah the U.S. s it's It's international. It's transnational organized crime. which does make it different than what we traditionally used to see 10, 15 years ago. You know, credit card fraud had always been a thing and scams, but not to this level of sophistication and not so much international and crossing borders. Whereas today, it's all near real time.
00:11:14
Speaker
It's all over the world and it requires masses of mouth of collaboration across the entire ecosystem. Whereas before you could probably solve these things and mitigate them fairly easily. I mean, you know technology caught up. We could, you know, you'd lose your card. Someone picks it up on the street and use it. It required physical environment. This no longer requires anybody to be physically. You could be anywhere in the world and you could scale this thing massively with little to no expertise. And I think that's the thing that scares all of us is, you know, the old phishing or the old scams used to, you
00:11:46
Speaker
easy to identify now with AI and technology. It's anybody can do it and you can do it all over the world and it's ah scaling faster than you know what we can all keep up with individually. So it does require a holistic approach in order to fight.
00:12:03
Speaker
So what are you seeing in terms of um customer reporting? Is it, you know, the growth of that when it comes to scams, any specific stem typologies at Capital One that you see that are targeting your customers that you can share with us?
00:12:18
Speaker
I think the thing I would add to this, you know, ah that a lot of people haven't really thought as much about is it is not just an elderly thing. I know where there's a lot of crypto and the pig butchering, all those are are real. And those are massive and they're worrisome. But there's also...
00:12:33
Speaker
You know just even on the credit card side, there are many, many victims that are lower dollar amounts, but more incidents. So that's kind of what I would say the trend is. The fraudsters and scammers, which, you know, they're all criminals. So that would be clear is it's it's a crime and it's they they're criminals. are not, I mean, they're targeting all products in all lines of business and all processes, and it's not just one thing. And so what we want to impress upon is, yeah we're seeing that trend of like you squeeze one side, you know, you may like look at the the large wires and against the elderly, but then meanwhile, the common... You know, youth and others are still getting victimized just as much, um may not be as big a dollar amount per incident. So it's what we're seeing is it's it's it's happening to all things at all times. And a lot of folks wouldn't naturally say, well, on credit cards, what's happening? The same scams are hitting the cards. They're not just getting as much attention. So we've put in a ton of focus on preventing those for our customers because a lot of folks haven't been talking about the cards. They've talking about other products. and so we're seeing that trend it's in cards and it is bad merchants it is the social media it is the telecom all hitting the same things but in different uh mos from that perspective and so that's kind of when a lot of folks don't think you know hey credit cards what scams aren't hitting credit cards we're kind like yeah it actually is pretty massive and don't forget about it it's happening there the tech scale you know they hit you've popped up on your computer they they take credit cards For those, the scammers and fraudsters are taking those, the bad merchants.
00:14:02
Speaker
And so anyway, that's the trend is it's not just a wire and deposit and check problem. It's an opportunity across all these products. And so we need to do something about it holistically.
00:14:15
Speaker
So that's really interesting. I think as an industry, we do talk about um authorized push payment fraud and less about um phishing of credit card information or bad merchants. It sounds like it's not just phishing, but also just mad merchants that are convincing people with with um with psychology or with presenting goods that don't exist, etc. Yep, that's what we're seeing. That's the trend is it's now goods that are too good to be true that never show up or, you know, the $500 sunglasses that you got for $10 really aren't great sunglasses or they don't even have lenses or they never ship them. That is actually a high volume scam. You know, those things are happening quite often, but don't get as much attention and they're hitting. Well, do think that is because customers are um expecting credit card transactions to be covered in the in the event of a scam. Why do you think it's less common to hear about it? I think, I mean, the folks are looking for something too good to be true a lot of times. it's the you know
00:15:09
Speaker
And um they're easily convinced with a lot of these ads that are popping up that look to be trusted from all these trusted sources that are at least allegedly. And they' you know the these scam compounds are really good at you know how do you get the hooks ah into folks, whether they're calling the folks and in routing them to the the merchants, convincing them how to compromise their payments to make payments on on all the different products. So yeah.
00:15:32
Speaker
I think it's just scaled across every product and everything. So it it basically gets back to the earlier point is it was not just a one type of trend anymore. It's the similar things, imposters and romance all wheel woven in, but they're hitting every product type in every demographic, in every whether you're elderly or young is what we're what we're seeing. It sounds like they're really good at meeting their customers where they are. Customers, quote unquote, they're victims where they are and really finding the right approach for each yeah each person.
00:16:02
Speaker
let's talk a little bit about scam prevention. You mentioned community, you mentioned collaboration. So how does Capital One think about ah your role? How do you think about your role beyond the bank and driving that community effort to fight scams? And I know you're involved in several initiatives. So tell tell us a little bit about those and the approach first and then the initiatives. spring I mean, yeah our approach is very preventive driven, to your point, of not just be a response ah to a to a situation. and So we've really been on the offense, I guess, you if you will, for the last couple years. One with our own strategies to try to prevent up front. But also then the whole education and awareness, because I think that goes across all this. Like you have to do education and awareness on the front end, on the back end and continuous and work with the industry to do that. But ours was a prevention first across all products. Where could we do that? So we're we're having a lot of success of putting in a lot of preventative strategies, anywhere from blocking phone calls. If it's our number, don't allow it to reach the customer. So we can block any Capital One phone number that's supposed to be reaching. Like you make it harder to to impersonate Capital One. So we're doing that.
00:17:11
Speaker
We're one of the first ones to be doing that at scale for quite a while. Two, blocking transactions that you know are scams. So why you know why do you wait to a customer to report it if we have a pretty good idea that this merchant continues to have a lot of customers either reporting it or we feel like we know they're not getting the goods that or the goods are kind of defective, but and not never going to show up type of thing.
00:17:32
Speaker
Don't wait for the customers. How do we practically decline those and then shut down a lot of other merchants that may be related to that? So we're having a pretty... good success. Of course, it's a start. It's never's not stopping at all. But we feel like from a preventative, we're saving and preventing a bunch of customers from being victims, which is not what the industry's talked a lot about.
00:17:51
Speaker
And so something we're proud of. And then I guess the second point of like, but we do this and work with industry partners and go participate in GASA, the Global Anti-Scam Alliance, you know, NEFC, the National Elder Fraud Coordination Center. Like you have to get involved externally and start pulling in different perspectives and different, you know, partnerships to kind of make this work because you only can see what you can see. And so we, that's another one of our strategies. We want to be out in the industry, helping move the industry along, whether if we see a good idea or they have a good idea or there's a data sharing or a policy that needs to be influenced. We feel like that's a huge role that we want to play an active role in of, you know, leading the industry and getting out there to kind of, To your point, it's it's a multilayer thing. You're not going to solve it by just prevention by yourself because you only see your piece. You're not going solve it with education and awareness. Very important to continue to do.
00:18:43
Speaker
And third, you're not going to solve it just by law enforcement after after the fact. It's all of those combined with a a national strategy that we can all get behind and not just do our things in silos and have a coordinated, well-thought-out strategy versus we're all doing things, but is it adding up and making
Focusing on Elder Fraud and Data Sharing Challenges
00:18:58
Speaker
a difference? And so that's what we want to do is... Go find these partnerships, go find these coalitions and partner together, kind of get a more united force to kind of go after this in a well-coordinated strategic way. So tell us a little more about the involvement in the National Elder Fraud Coordination Center. What is that? Tell us a little more about that and and your involvement. Yeah, it's ah it's a great one that, um you know, we've just joined probably six months ago. It's really focused on scams and fraud against the elderly and having a place to send those cases and get like aggregated intelligence and get the biggest case and the biggest trends that are actually happening right now and actually try to go get something done about it together versus us independently. One, either not knowing where to send an elder victim, um,
00:19:46
Speaker
to get law enforcement action and those types of things. So really this is like bringing all that together with a very coordinated specific focus for like, hey, we are going to have a coordinated effort to kind of go after those specific type of scams from a disruption and a law enforcement perspective and go after them. And so everywhere from the initial, you know whole idea is to prevent it In the future is so the earlier we could be sharing and getting more partners across all sectors. So this is just a bank thing, merchant thing process. and It's trying to bring the ecosystem together, plus the law enforcement prosecution side and figure out how we can actually disrupt and make a bigger impact together versus back to our earlier point.
00:20:25
Speaker
Siloed approaches, referring cases are trying to help the elderly in this case, but a very focused effort. on trying to do that in a well-coordinated way. And it's already off to some great success stories of cases that we've sent in into the the center and made it you know something that we got attention from a lot of the law enforcement groups to kind of go after and take action. So it's off to a great start.
00:20:45
Speaker
But, you know it's in the very beginning. and We need more, more industries to get involved and more folks to come together because that's how we're going to have a bigger impact is the more groups we get in, the better we'll be because it's a bigger united front. We'll see the bigger picture and the bigger things that we can have ah and an impact on versus may not be going after the biggest opportunities. Yeah. So that's a great call to action to our listeners who are mostly financial institution tro providers. If you're interested in learning more, we'll have some information in the show notes as well.
00:21:18
Speaker
Scams don't begin with money moves. They begin when trust is manipulated one message at a time. Rangers AI builds ScamRanger to help step in before the damage, detecting scam messages and guiding people while they still have the power to choose. And on the ScamRangers podcast, we bring you the voices on the front lines, experts, advocates, and leaders fighting back.
00:21:39
Speaker
Because stopping scams means protecting people before they're pulled in. Learn more at rangersai.com.
00:21:48
Speaker
So let's talk about data sharing here for this purpose of being part of the communities and organizations. I think one of the biggest barriers to data sharing is, you know, the regulatory aspects of what can you share, what can't you share. So in your involvement in these organizations, you mentioned the Global Anti-Schemma Alliance as well. And Nefci, how do you approach the ability to share information and collaborate? Because I think the idea is to be really more hands-on and, you know, drive action. So how do you get around that? And so it's it's a major industry challenge for all entities, right? I think if you back all the way up, I've not had any group like in the last year or two years, I sit at the table with the telecoms, the social media, the banks, that you name it. And everyone agrees we should be working together and collaborating. We say, yes, we should do it. It's great idea. All these organizations. And so everyone's aligned the problem that we want to go tackle together. and But it requires data. and and sharing and so our approach has always been like let's focus on what we can do not just everything we can't do and that's the whole nfcc model with the elderly with this this guy there's things we can do this is a victim this is the victim you could the the victim will give their like if they want something done they will give us the information or the give us the clearance to go work with law enforcement to go take action And so we already have a willing population. We have the data and there's no dispute whether you can or can't share. if yeah if so So find the pockets where there's no debate while we also then work together on what the larger hurdles are and how do we actually remove those over time. But our approach is let's let's focus first. what we can do versus what we can't. And there's a lot that we can be doing, but we're all usually trying to solve and boil the ocean first versus, well, let's just go do the things we know we can do.
00:23:35
Speaker
We wait and keep waiting for like policy and regulation, which we're all working towards. But if we wait for that, where there's a huge opportunity in the middle here that we're missing, at least traditionally what we found. So we want to be very proactive of like, how do we get us more aligned on what we can do right now versus just focused on the destination which we're all after like we need more safe harbor we need more policy we need more regulation to make it clear on who should be doing what and when because everyone's willing like from a collaborative perspective all these industries are sitting at the table they're all just not going all in because they're worried about all the other regulation and policy rightfully so privacy is a thing that we need to solve and thread the needle But there's a lot of areas we we can be doing and we are doing. How do we celebrate those and get more people involved in the thing that can be done while we're working on the long term together as well? I love that. It's so great to hear from you, from someone from a financial institution, talk about that can-do attitude. And let's start with the low-hanging fruit and what we can do. And in the meantime, work on the policy influence, et cetera. So let's talk a little bit about that. And so what
00:24:42
Speaker
We're obviously trying to promote, like you mentioned, safe harbor, the ability to collaborate more and to do more for our customers to prevent scams. So how does Capital One think about policy, governance and accountability when it comes to scam risk, both internally within Capital One, but also influencing kind of broader government level policy? mean, we view this as an ecosystem problem. So we want an ecosystem solution. And it should not be a only one one industry figure it out type of thing. Like, hey, only put the standards in for one versus the other. And so that's how our approach is like we're not waiting, though, to your point. We're taking action. What we can do, what can we own and prevent and do without the the other things while we work on this whole ecosystem approach? Because we're
00:25:23
Speaker
We're very excited about the opportunity to have a whole ecosystem approach where there's accountability throughout the entire model because that's the only way we're really going to solve this thing. If we just keep trying to push it to one industry or another, the scammers, i.e. criminals, just continue to win because just moving the money around for whoever is liable, et cetera, just makes the criminals continue to be successful because it's not stopping anything. Right. It's just having more victims versus it incensed people to kind of report things, to do things. It incensed bad behaviors and the criminals are winning with that model versus, hey, why don't we require ourselves to all notify whatever national strategy we create? Once you're aware that there is a crime occurring, you should be required to do something about it and send it to someone that can do something about it to prevent it from happening versus waiting to the very end and go, oh. we should report this and do something. Well, that crime has already happened. The evidence is probably gone. And we all go, wow, what are we doing? So we want to go the whole term of the left of the boom. yeah We're doing a lot of right of the boom, and which was what we're all really good at responding to after something happens. We want to move that whole ecosystem to the left and then have a full, you know, kind of holistic approach and accountability throughout. And then ah we believe we can have like a truly systematic impact on driving this down with, you know, that layered strategy of coupled with education and awareness, accountability through every stakeholder. If we we could do that, I think, ah I mean, we're excited about the opportunity because we think we can get there because everyone has a piece of something. If you put the jigsaw of get together, we actually get a nice...
00:26:52
Speaker
picture but right now everyone's going to got their little piece and like i don't know what this is and so the picture doesn't look so great you know yeah we need to have visibility across the scan like cycle to to what's happening at every point in order to as an industry or or as multiple verticals bring together their insights into all of this uh and we definitely know that you know tech companies social media telpos uh have a lot of pieces of those puzzles so we need them at the table so yeah that We believe, though, it's probably going to take policy because everyone's willing. It's more of like they're just it's a balance that we have to make of making sure you're not putting each industry at risk. That's it's it's it's a thing. And so I I'm hopeful because everyone's aligned and everyone feels like everyone does have something to add to this equation and everyone's motivated to want to stop it because we're all America's getting fleeced to plus a bunch other countries. So this is a national security threat that's going to take a holistic approach can't be just pointing fingers. And so I feel like, you know, Gaza and Aspen and all these community types of programs are helping get us all aligned closer to this national strategy to kind of do something about it, which is which is awesome, right? where We finally have some momentum, I think, or aligning on what we need. Now, how do we actually go influence to make it happen? Yeah.
00:28:05
Speaker
So let's talk a little bit about left of boom and prevention. And this is a conversation that I was really looking forward to have with you about what does prevention mean?
Preventing Scams Before Transactions Occur
00:28:13
Speaker
Because I think there are different points when you think from a classic fraud prevention standpoint, then prevention is preventing the transaction, preventing the payment from happening if it's a fraudulent payment. But I think when it comes to scams, I wanted to have a conversation. What does prevention mean? What does it mean to you? Yeah, so it means exactly to what your point is. We want to prevent the transaction from going through. And so on the credit card side, this is where I'm saying we have had a massive amount of success of preventing, not just, hey, sending you an alert and say, did you do this transaction? We're actually stopping. Like, we know this is a scam. We're going to block it. you're not even gonna be able to make the transaction, which is pretty powerful, right? Like lot of these merchants we're talking, why do we let the merchant keep going? So it's an ecosystem thing, but we're not waiting for the ecosystem to shut it down. We're basically saying, okay, well, we believe evidence shows that this is not gonna be good for our customer or anyone else. So we're gonna go ahead and block it. So that's prevention to us means that whole left of the boom of like, we don't want the money to have been moved because it's too late. Prevention is not chasing the money and getting it back. Definitely. I want to offer, though, maybe another perspective and just hear your thoughts on that. So definitely prevention has to be before the transaction goes through for sure. But when it comes to scams, let's say we're not talking about merchants and credit cards, but we're actually talking about authorized payment fraud. I convinced you that you need to transfer money to me because of a toll violation, a job opportunity, cryptocurrency investments. So if we prevent that one payment, then...
00:29:43
Speaker
Because the individual is convinced that they need to transfer money, they'll go to a different payment rail. They'll go to a different route. Maybe they'll try online and then yeah go the bench to do a money transfer. Yeah. So how do we actually go even more left of home? Yeah. So i and prevent you I love the question because that's where we want to go is it's even way before the... the payments even being pushed or pulled or authorized, right? We need to go further upstream, prevent and disrupt the ecosystem. i Is it a phone call? how Why do we allow the phone call to go if it's bad and we know it's coming from international, it's a known bad, you know,
00:30:18
Speaker
ah What have you, right? It's a spoof number. if We know it's not coming from Capital One or the FBI calling you like to say you you owe a fine or what have you. If it's a text, why are we not blocking those if we we know they're bad, etc. So yes, guilt. So far up front and disrupt that network, which is prevention in my mind. And we need to get way more creative with the ecosystem versus thinking we're going to solve it by just hold the payment, decline the payment. That's way too late in that in our mind. One, we don't have all the signals at that point. So it's impossible to kind of have a really great decision at that moment because we don't see the signals from that ecosystem that we were talking about that is very fragmented in then the signals that are being shared. And so, yes, how do we continue to move it up, block numbers, block web websites, block all those things, you know, block the bad ads, block the social media sites, all those things are where it's left of the boot, the text. So that's how we win. Like we're not going to win it just stopping at the payment stage with no matter what education and awareness, because most customers, the victims, they're going to get pulled in no matter. There's all kinds of way to get get them in. It's too late, right? We still need to do all those things at that stage to try to convince them that it's not a good thing to do or, hey, you might be a victim and ah and that sort of thing.
00:31:38
Speaker
But we need to go way more, way further left to your point. And so we're fully advocating and participating in every type of initiative that we could do that and put all our data together that makes sense to do that as far left as possible. Because we believe that's the only way to win at this game.
00:31:54
Speaker
So how do um people, process and technology come together to do that in your mind? And that maybe if there's something that you're already thinking about, what are some ways where you think we can effectively do that prevention actually before the social engineering happens is it really further up the scan lifecycle? Yeah.
00:32:15
Speaker
ah I mean, we believe, I mean it all starts with if you could get everyone comfortable with to share, the technology is already there to do it. Like we could be sharing in real time. There's mechanisms, but you need more safe harbor and you need more like policy driven on when it's okay to do it and not do it. So to me, that's the biggest hurdle. Technology is already there. AI is there. We could be sharing real time. We could be fighting AI with AI in these situations.
00:32:41
Speaker
it's It's a bit of a, ah you know, then it becomes an arms race, but it's a better race than the one we're playing now where we're just, yeah they're automating all their attacks. There's not even humans doing a lot of the attack, you know, for all of them. And And you're seeing some of those and from industries that are then putting bots and AI things against those to tie. But so to me, it goes back to like if you could just get some national strategy and a policy that says it's OK in these situations because it's in the spirit of preventing fraud, scams, criminal activity.
Technological and Policy Needs for Effective Scam Prevention
00:33:15
Speaker
It is OK. And by the way, the technology all exists. It's just can we use it? you know? So to me, it's it's all there. For the makings, it's just going to require some policy and standards that sounds easy, but this is what's the the, you know, but that's what we, we are spending a lot of time with all these different organizations you mentioned, because we think the capabilities are all there. And a lot of folks are at least recognized they have data that would be valuable in this chain.
00:33:42
Speaker
It's just, how are we going to be able to do it in a way that's safe for everybody, protects everyone, rightfully so, but the outcome is what we're all driving towards and aligned against.
00:33:56
Speaker
ah You mentioned the criminal use of AI. So I want to talk about that in just a second when we talk about looking ahead, because one of the things that really scares me the most is the technology is out there and the criminals are using it and we can use a lot of it. We're using some of it, but we're not using it to the full extent that we can because we want to make sure that when we communicate with our customers, we're doing it in way that you know we need We have a lot of guardrails by definition. finishing So let's park it up for just a second talk about that ah future looking ahead. But I did want to ask one question. Capital One is ah is a large financial institution in the US s and also has outre you knows a few other countries. but We are seeing that there is an evolution of regulatory um mandates in the UK. There's a scam liability and reimbursement policy. In Canada, there are a lot of discussions about Bill 72 and the evolution of that and where is that coming, but also mandating reimbursements similar to the UK model.
00:34:54
Speaker
In Australia, there's a different cross-industry model. How's Capital One thinking about what's coming? in and We don't think this administration necessarily, but there's definitely, there are conversations around this. ah really seeing this as a national threat.
00:35:09
Speaker
How Kappa One or how are you thinking about getting ready for this evolving regulatory landscape? all it's you know It's been in all our minds and kind of why we're all so active and want to do something about this because we want want to be able to shape what the answer is versus be told what it is because quite frankly, I don't think up a reimbursement model is the answer.
00:35:29
Speaker
You know holistically, just because, mean, you can look at the math. It hasn't told turned out like you just get more people that then become victims because and the and back to the criminal network continues to win when you just think about a re reimbursement. We believe you should think about this as a holistic approach again. and Like there needs to be accountability in the entire ecosystem to have have the biggest impact.
00:35:50
Speaker
um And so that's the approach is what we're we're preparing for is like, hey. We know we should probably be required to send certain data in certain situations, but the rest of the industry should as well. So how are we thinking about our technology? How are we thinking about our own policies? How are we thinking about moving so far left of the boom? And what data do we have to contribute to that?
00:36:09
Speaker
So that's kind of the model like we, I mean, in general, I think that's the the one what we find is the most important. Appealing is how does everyone feel like to have the joint accountability to do something and act? Because we feel like that's the only one that's going to be sustainable. There could be short term, you know, things that happen, like solve a thing very short term. But the long term here, there has to be accountability across the entire ecosystem in order to make this thing sustainable. because it's going to require all of us. At the end of the day, none of us by ourself have the right information and all the data to act accordingly. So it's a bit of like short-sighted to just say, put it at this stage, only at this stage. It needs to be a national holistic strategy, right? It can't just be ah accountability. It has to be education and awareness. It has to be data sharing. It has to be accountability across that entire ecosystem. And to your point, We need to get way further left of the boob and disrupt it versus waiting to the end um because I just don't think we can educate and awareness our way out of it. We're not going to arrest our way out of it. And so we all need to think about all the other strategies all the way across the the pieces. They're all important, but they're only as good as all of them together versus if we just focus on one, which which i we see that's what happens a lot in the industry you get so focused on, let's just go arrest a bunch of people. Yes, that's great. But does it ultimately stop all of it?
00:37:29
Speaker
No. because i mean like And so it's organized criminal behavior, and so it requires a more holistic national strategy approach versus a kind of a one-off Yeah, especially when many of the criminals are not around to arrest. yeah Right.
00:37:43
Speaker
Well, that's great. And and I think it's it makes a lot of sense for, ah I think we have an advantage here in the U.S. almost that we don't have regulation yet because we are able to observe what's happening in other countries and shape the regulation, but hopefully we'll get...
00:37:58
Speaker
the support from a regulatory perspective to share that data, to come together more as an industry and to better understand who owns what. If we look ahead into the future, what do you see as the biggest challenges and opportunities over the next few years, you know, beyond the industry collaboration that you
Supporting Victims and Changing Narratives
00:38:17
Speaker
mentioned? And the other biggest challenge, I think, is we have to start treating the victims way different. I mean, if we want more folks to report it and we want to really put all our support behind this, they're victims. And a lot of times this industry has talked about it like scam and scammer. You were you fell for this. You fell for that. You know, and Kathy Stokes and AARP have done just a tremendous job of getting that message out here. We need to take better care of the victims. We need to start standing up support and changing the way we talk about it.
00:38:46
Speaker
Because quite honestly, like we're not doing ourselves any favors a lot of times. Like we're making more people almost like scared to want to report it because they're embarrassed. Like, why did you ever do this versus recognizing it can happen all of us and why it happens in the psychology behind it all and changing ah the industry from that perspective will go a long way because ah the more of the victims that we can one.
00:39:06
Speaker
one take care of, they're going to help us tell the message to the others that will then spread this thing viral. that we' all like We have to get everyone talking about it in the right way so that we can get the you know that the momentum of of everyone doing something versus where there's only a few people who know how to talk about this. It takes all of us. So victims are, I think, core to this. And so we're passionate about that you know as another pillar of things that we're participating in and want to yeah just do as much as we can there because we think that's the other... Other area that to me that's just going to continue to make this problem more challenging if we can't talk about it and actually do something more for our victims. And most even the the criminals themselves are using are victimizing some of the scammers that, you know, we've heard all about it like they're victims, too. And so recognizing you may be dealing with someone the that the scammer is actually a victim, too, is makes this thing very dynamic of like. We're dealing with very organized transactional crime that is not as easy as what a lot of folks think. Just stop that. Well, the reality is those are victims, too, in a lot of these you know human trafficking and all that stuff, which is this is why this is a national security crisis. Like we have to do something because it's not just a one dimensional thing. It has. It's not good. about Good guys, bad guys. It's very complicated. Yeah. And so getting that victim back into this equation and getting them more involved, talking to them like they are victims, regardless of how it happened, what happened, it is they're a victim.
00:40:30
Speaker
So that's kind of one thing we want to focus on and not lose sight of in all this, that that's what, you know, what well I love the work that AARP and others are pushing because that's so important. If we don't solve that, we're not going have engaged folks to even know what to do and even want to participate because they it's they're just chastised and it's just not a good spot to be in.
00:40:49
Speaker
I wanted to share something with you that just happened a week ago or a few days ago. And just talking about that fear of reporting because of the shame, i met ah um i chaperoned a trip for my daughter's chorus and sat with a group of seventh graders who talked about um the Roblox account being hacked. And what struck me was that was that they were so nonchalant about, yeah, my account was hacked, like big deal. It happens to everyone. they It's like the opposite of the spectrum. They were not ashamed. They were not even bothered by it. And it's not that they didn't spend money there. They had invested in Roblox to buy clothes or whatever happens in Roblox, right? But- They just know what happens to anyone. They didn't get think about how it happened. How do I prevent it from happening again? What are the impacts? What are they after? All these questions.
00:41:36
Speaker
um So I'm almost all afraid of the other side of the spectrum, too, not just being. We have a whole generation that's trained to maybe this is what's the big deal. Like, yeah, not as engaged to want to do something about it because they've grown up like that's kind of what happens. It's just in a you know, their brains are already hijacked. In a way that it allows it to continue to be hijacked in the future, which is why this is a more complicated thing than just, you know, it's a psychology that yeah there's a thing that's gone on here with, a I mean, and we're all susceptible to some type of hijacking, depending on what, how to make it happen, right? From a true science perspective. Yeah. And those those girls are going to have bank accounts in a few years and that's going to be a challenge to. Right. How do you make them care about this and how do make them participate as well? Which is why we believe like ah just a reimbursement policy like in the UK is it's one answer. But to your point, then what's motivates people from doing anything else about it and deputizing people to care and do something, if you know. Well, it's no big deal. The bank or the telecom or the social media is just going to pay for it.
00:42:37
Speaker
Like, that's like what we have to change. This is criminal behavior and it requires a holistic approach to everyone and all the victims as well in order to actually do something about this if we want to curb the... I mean, people are getting fleeced out of billions of dollars, and that's going to have a bigger impact to all the other crimes. And this is not good stuff that happens with all those billions, right? Like you can just see like where is it going and what's happening. So that's why it brings me back to the
Towards a Unified Strategy to Combat Scams
00:43:01
Speaker
original. Like you got to know who's doing this and why they do it.
00:43:04
Speaker
Study criminology, really care. And in that shapes how you should approach and do something about it. I go back to the bank robber story. Like we need to get to a point where. There are 20 folks who show up when a bank is robbed. but and We need 20 people showing up when someone gets scammed. And then we all do something about it in order to stop it because it's going to take that holistic approach. You think about it. Someone robs a bank, they get couple thousand dollars. our Our consumers across the world are getting robbed hundreds and millions and billions of dollars. And rarely is anybody showing up.
00:43:35
Speaker
So we need to be able to shape and change the economy. you know the dynamic here in that way is kind of how i bring it back to the bank. ropt Like, we need that type of response. Like, it's no questions. Within seconds, there are 20 squad cars, whatever. It's not just squad cars. You have whenever something happens, you have the fire department, the ambulance and the police. Now we need all these. we bring all those like the psychologist, all that to the the scam victims and those? start So this is like that's what we need. But that's why it requires a national strategy and support. And everyone needs to be asking for that as a as a consumer, because that's why we have it for bank because people were scared. Well, why are they not scared that their entire life savings is not being, you know, there's real lives that are online here. And so when are we going to make that the response and and take it seriously?
00:44:22
Speaker
I think the hundreds of billions of dollars and the folks that are losing lives out of this should be enough for us to get them around this and in take it serious and do something about it. Yeah. Well, Jamie, thank you so much for your time. I wanted to ask maybe one last question, and that is, um what are you hopeful about in everything that's happening, everything that you're seeing, and any anything that you think can you know help impact, shape the future of skin finding?
00:44:48
Speaker
I am hopeful. The fact that having this conversation and there's more conversations that continue through the GASAs, the NFCCs, the Aspens, the reality is we're now actually getting past just talking about it. Now we're starting to figure out what action to put in place. So so I'm hopeful because everyone seems aligned. Like all these industries, we sit in these rooms or these Zooms and now everyone's actually aligned versus a year or two ago it was pointing fingers and and making excuses and what we can't do. I'm hearing more can-dos. I'm hearing more, like, here's how we should work together. I'm hearing more, it requires partnership and willing. um So I'm hopeful that we will be able to make a difference. We're making progress. We're far away from, like, success here, but I'm hopeful that the right people are talking, the right folks are getting engaged, and I believe, like, we've got a lot of momentum that now, where do we go with it in the next year to two years is kind of what I'm hopeful for, um you know, that something can be done. The fact that The work you're doing with the scam ranger, getting the word out and showing there are a lot of fighters out here and how do we get more fighters united. i'm I'm hopeful. So thank you for what you do and what you've been doing from the industry, because I think all this matters. You add up, right? It's taking all the different things. And so it's so important to the scam ray ranger mission, right? Like this is what it takes. We just got to keep building more scam rangers. More forest rangers for the digital forest out there. That's right. That's right.
00:46:15
Speaker
Great. Thank you so much for time today and for sharing your insights. It was a great conversation and I'm looking forward forward to staying in touch. Thank you.