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Breaking the Scam Spell: From Grooming to Intervention with Martina Dove, Scam psychology expert
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In this powerful episode of Scam Rangers, Ayelet Biger-Levin sits down with scam psychology expert Martina Dove to dive deep into the psychology of scams. Martina shares her insights on the psychological tactics used by scammers and the most effective methods for prevention and intervention.
The conversation dives deep into the origins of Martina's research, which began with her interest in the Barnum effect , a phenomenon where people accept vague feedback as true when it applies to everyone. Barnum, an 1800s magician, even wrote a book on scams that are still in operation today, like romance scams and lotteries. Martina emphasizes that scams are now a "product that caters for everyone", as vulnerability depends on individual circumstances and personality, not IQ.
Key Takeaways: The Scam Lifecycle and Psychology
- The Scammer's Hook: Scams, which now feature excellent grammar due to AI, prey on either opportunity (like job or romance scams) or fear (like sextortion). Once a victim responds to the initial communication, it's difficult to stop engaging.
- Grooming: A "Wear-Down" Process: Scams that go on for a long time—like pig butchering—evoke multiple visceral influences, starting with excitement and then inducing anxiety and fear of loss. The scammer will subtly withdraw or use verbal abuse if the victim does not comply. This wear-down period, which can last months, can cause victims to lose executive functions, affecting their memory and decision-making.
- Targeting Trust: Scammers groom victims to distrust their bank by teaching them that the bank will try to stop them, or by creating elaborate stories, such as a regulator investigating internal fraud. By the time the bank intervenes, the victim is a "worn out person" who truly believes the scammer's narrative.
- Effective Intervention: Empathy is Key: Authoritarian warnings, like "Don't panic" or "Never click links," are proven not to work, as they trigger a physiological reaction and make people switch off. Instead, interventions—especially from "Break the Spell" teams—need to be conversational and empathetic. Martina suggests asking the victim to simply "stall" the transfer, which often causes the scammer to escalate pressure, providing a warning sign to the victim.
You can find more about Martina on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martina-dove/
A link to her book: https://www.routledge.com/The-Psychology-of-Fraud-Persuasion-and-Scam-Techniques-Understanding-What-Makes-Us-Vulnerable/Dove/p/book/9781032953908
This podcast is hosted by Ayelet Biger-Levin, who has spent the last 15 years building technology to help financial institutions authenticate their customers and identify fraud. She believes that when it comes to scams, the story starts well before the transaction. Ayelet created this podcast to talk about the human side of scams and to learn from those dedicated to advocating for scam victims and taking action against fraud.
Be sure to follow Ayelet on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ayelet-biger-levin/
Learn More: https://www.rangersai.com/
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Transcript
Bank Intervention in Scam Victim Manipulation
00:00:03
Speaker
By the time that a bank intervenes, you think, you know, I think sometimes we think that a bank has intervened at the point where you're still a rational human being that has entered the scam, but you're no longer that person.
00:00:15
Speaker
They wear you down. So when a bank intervenes, it's very difficult because at that point, the victim believes, truly believes everything that a scammer has laid out.
Understanding the Scam Lifecycle
00:00:28
Speaker
The scam lifecycle is a psychological journey. First comes the hook, then the engagement, after that the emotional manipulation and grooming, and finally the money moment. And we need to understand that the victim is no longer the same person who began the scam.
00:00:43
Speaker
We're going to cover that and much more in this fascinating episode of Scam Rangers.
Welcome to Scam Rangers Podcast
00:00:51
Speaker
Welcome to Scam Rangers. a podcast about the human side of fraud and the people who are on a mission to protect us. I'm your host Ayelet Bigger Levine and I'm passionate about driving awareness and solving this problem.
Meet Martina Dove: Scam Psychology Expert
00:01:11
Speaker
Today's scam ranger is Martina Dove, a scam psychology expert. She holds a PhD in psychology from the University of Portsmouth and is an author of a book named The Psychology of Fraud, Persuasion, and Scam Techniques.
00:01:26
Speaker
Hi, Martina. So great to finally have you on the podcast. hi nice to be here. Great. So I wanted to share with you that I finally watched the movie The Greatest Showman. I know I'm way behind, but that definitely ties to our conversation today.
Martina's Journey into Scam Psychology
00:01:40
Speaker
so I wanted to ask you to share a little bit about your background. And I know you've been very, very focused in talking about scams for a while now, but especially in the past a couple of years more intensively. And I think We've seen the evolution of scams and the sophistication grow. So share kind of who you are and ah and what your background is.
00:02:00
Speaker
Yeah, like i I got into scams when I was doing my PhD and I fell into it by kind of by accident because I was really, really interested in the Barnum effect, which ties to the Greatest Showman. You know, Barnum was actually a magician in I think in the 1800s, and he wrote a book on scams back then. And he mentioned all of the scams that are still in operation today, such as romance scams and lotteries, fake lotteries, and all sorts of things that obviously have evolved since. But I found the Barnum effect really interesting. It's an effect where people accept ah very vague feedback is very true of them when it's actually true of everybody in the population. And that's how ah psychic scams tend to work.
00:02:47
Speaker
you know, a fake psychic may say to you certain things that apply to anybody in the population and you think it's true and then anything they tell you after that, you'll take. So I got kind of, I wanted to study the Barnum effect and do something with Barnum effect because I've done something with the Barnum effect for my master's and i ended up finding something on psychology of ah like phishing
Martina's Research and Book on Fraud Psychology
00:03:11
Speaker
emails. And I thought, wow, okay, yeah Nobody's really studying that, but it's really interesting. And that's how I ended up kind of going down that route. And since then, i published a book on psychology of fraud and how scammers persuade. I've done some research on, um you know, more recently on how big butchering scams tend to work. and how they manipulate. I work in a tech as a researcher, you know, but I'm really passionate about supporting nonprofits that deal with scam victims. And I'm still very much involved ah analyzing different types of scams that are cropping up.
00:03:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's super, super interesting. And I'm excited to have you here. And I know maybe our audience heard you on other podcasts. And I do recommend you were on Aaron West's Stolen Podcast and you talk a lot about victims. So I wanted us to take a journey across the scam lifecycle, which um is interesting. Really what I talk a lot on the podcast about the scam lifecycle, how the scam starts with that initial call, text, ad, something like that, that point of first point of interaction with the victim. Then the um manipulation happens. Then they try at some point to transfer money. Sometimes that starting point to the end point is, you know,
00:04:24
Speaker
half an hour, 10 minutes. Sometimes it's a few days, sometimes it can be years, but there's a certain point where they try to transfer money and then the financial institution can observe what's happening by collecting all this information. And once ah financial institutions determine that this might be a scam, they try to intervene with a few ways. So I wanted, and then they might, um you know, may or may not stop the scam, but then the the victim will report.
00:04:49
Speaker
or not. But if they do, then a recovery process starts. So I wanted to maybe go across the scam lifecycle, actually from the end to the beginning, and talk about the psychological ah
Who is Susceptible to Scams?
00:05:01
Speaker
points. But um maybe before we do that, we can talk a little bit about research on who can get scammed, right? So I know that Javelin, um Global Anti-Scam Alliance, and other organizations have published research on who can get scammed with the preconception by, I think, population that it's mostly elderly, mostly cognitive, ah you know, deterio less, less ah you know, lower IQ.
00:05:26
Speaker
But the reality is a little different that we see the research. And I wanted to get your perspective on that. ah knowing that, yes, it can happen to everyone. I would ask you why. Yeah, like I think ah it has nothing to do with IQ, first of all, and absolutely people who are vulnerable because of some kind of cognitive impairment or decline, and they can sometimes be the elderly just because, you know, you may have an early onset of dementia or something like that, you know, they are definitely more vulnerable. There are people that are more vulnerable because they struggle to make quick, good decisions just because of maybe some problems with executive functions and things like that. But I would say scams are no longer looking for victims like that. A lot of the times victims like that are protected either by a power of attorney, by a family member. It's more about really appealing to anyone. So I would say scams happen to everyone. And actually did a study for my PhD and I looked into what factors, what, ah like, I guess, individual differences, ah such personality factors, make you more vulnerable. And circumstances definitely stand out. So people are not vulnerable in the same way across their lifespan. Sometimes you find yourself in certain circumstances that will lend themselves to a scammer so the scammer can target you more effectively, such as if you're looking for a partner, especially if you're looking for a partner after a long period of being married where you may not be aware how the dating works now and what are the dangers and things like that. ah You know, bereavement as well. You know, there are certain scams that target certain circumstances when you're out of a job.
00:07:10
Speaker
You're willing to risk a little bit more than you would if you had a job and you're financially stable. So there are scams that target us circumstances, and I think that makes you vulnerable. Your personality makes you vulnerable. So i think everybody's vulnerable, depending on what are the factors that you know make you vulnerable. And then there are other factors too. Scams target specifically certain companies. You know, we know that smaller companies are easy targets because you can go on LinkedIn and find out who the CEO is. You can pretend to be a CEO or you can pretend to be a certain person from finance asking for something to be paid. So i think I think we need to think about scans, not so much like who is vulnerable and are certain people vulnerable, but more seeing them as like a product that caters for everyone. It just depends what your vulnerability is and where you are at your point of life.
00:08:04
Speaker
I just shared, I think, on on one of the recent episodes where I clicked a link and and thank goodness I had virus protection. like It's a very old age protection, but I did click that link because of the content of the email that was on on a business email. So um definitely, and this is what I do all day, right? Scam. So it can definitely happen.
00:08:23
Speaker
to anyone.
Types of Scams and Victim Vulnerabilities
00:08:24
Speaker
And the stories are really interesting. So let's start actually with the beginning of the scam lifecycle. Let's start with the stories. So for example, in our um within ScamRanger, we know we can identify over 100 different types of scams, but the stories are always the same.
00:08:38
Speaker
You can take 10,000 scam messages, they're all going to fall into these categories. So just like you're saying they're catering the job scams, the cryptocurrency investment scams, the Roman scams, the stories are the same. And in the past, we've seen bad grammar or things like that, that were easy tells. Now with the use of AI, a spell checker, like it's not, I don't see that anymore. It's very, very sharp in terms of ah grammar, but the stories are the same. And there's a story for everyone, just like you said. But I think what is it intrigues me a lot is what's after the initial story is told. So you get a text message that triggers you to take action. So let's say it's a job scam. Would you like, are you looking for a job? We have a job offer. It could be just, are you looking for a job? It could be a very specific job description, work from home, get money.
00:09:27
Speaker
And then there's the conversation, the actually the next step after the initial communication. And that intrigues me a lot because then the scammer really needs to be versatile and flexible to, I see it as like, okay, there's the hook, there's the story. And then there's the response of the victim that can go ah either way, right? The victim can try to challenge, can try to ask, can try to respond a different way. So how have scammers become so proficient to continue to hook individuals? Yeah, like I think also one thing I would say, not two scammers are the same, right? Like so scammers vary, ah just like people vary in the in their skills and level of skill they have towards their job. I would say scammers vary in how sophisticated they are and how the scam works. plays out. um So you see that like if ah email is spoofed, obviously that's going to immediately appear more credible. So it really depends like how much effort the scammer puts into creating a scam, right? So it starts, like you said, let's say maybe with a with a text
How Scammers Initiate Contact
00:10:28
Speaker
message. And this is usually like I've been, I've done some contracts. I get approached like that by genuine recruiters, you know, or, you know, they have platforms with which they send, they know that you in the past maybe worked for them or interviewed with them.
00:10:44
Speaker
They'll just send the text. So like, there's nothing standing out in terms of like how this gets delivered. And then you have to think about like what, how does that text appear? And then, as you said, when a victim starts responding, it really depends. It's an interplay of how good a scammer is ah in orchestrating the scam and whether they're patient, whether they are going to follow more information.
00:11:08
Speaker
slower steps, like maybe a genuine company, or they're going to try and push for things, which may be a warning sign. um So there's the side of the scammer, like how sophisticated they are and how how much they thought through how people would process this. And then you have the other side, which is a victim, right? Like if I've been out of a job for a year, we tend to risk more when we have nothing to lose. And so it really depends where you catch the victim too. If it's just, if let's say this is a good job offer, but I already have a job, i may or may not find it interesting. I may maybe be just go along a little bit and then find that something's wrong. If I'm really desperate for funds, ah this may be more attractive to me. and So therefore my mind will work in a different way. I'll be more focused on what I can gain rather than how this sounds. So really it's really that interplay. ah It really depends on how good a scammer is.
00:12:04
Speaker
And then typically, I would say good scammers will invest a lot of effort into credibility cues. So maybe they'll spoof an email. Maybe they'll create legitimate looking contracts. They'll send you a DocuSign. They'll do all of these steps that cost them money, but work very well. So it really, really depends. I would say, I know everybody always wants to find out what it is, that one thing that makes things happen. It's not a one thing. It's really kind of like it's that magic that happens between whether the scammer is good enough to capture the victim's interests,
00:12:42
Speaker
and how good a victim is actually at figuring out what's going on. So it's it's really, it's around that. And and you're you're right, AI has upped the up the game.
Scams and Financial Institutions' Role
00:12:55
Speaker
I wanted to continue across the scam lifecycle. So we had the initial messaging or the initial text message. And for that, there are many playbooks out there, right? So we know that we're talking about organized criminal organizations. They're not just one-off. They have a lot of experience and they teach the scammers how to scam and they teach them how to... navigate and manipulate within specific situations. So there's the initial contact, then there's the downstream communication, which changes it depending on the scam. It can be, if it's an extortion scam, it can be very quick and threatening. If it's a pig bushing scam, it could be a little longer, a few days. If it's a Roman scam, much longer, et cetera. But then there's the point of kind of, at some point, there's a point of the money, right? Give me money, send me money, put money in an investment, pay me to get paid, the threatening circumstances and extortion. The point of the money is really interesting because now it's not just the victim and the scammer. There are other players, right?
00:13:52
Speaker
ah You have the financial institution, you have a lot of controls and fraud controls here. um one point I find really interesting is that um the point of grooming. And I think you talked about this on Aaron's podcast, the point of grooming of convincing people that their financial institution is in on it. Tell me a little bit about that and how they managed to take a highly trusted, ah at least in the U.S., banks are trusted and and we trust the security and we trust the banks. So how do they manage to to create that hesitation or suspicion around a financial institution?
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah, like i yeah I think it really depends what the scam is. I've heard the case where a victim was just contacted out of the blue by what she thought was a financial you know regulator in the UK. The person told her they are investigating her bank.
00:14:43
Speaker
and persuaded her that somebody in the bank is trying to do inside a fraud and her account is affected. Another person got involved, was calling her as well. So usually they have different personas. um So they create this situation and they bolster that by different communication, ah you know, different personas. um So like the communication goes on for days, you know, to make the victim first believe what's happening. And then so like i heard cases like that where then immediately the nothing that a bank will say will be trusted because the victim thinks she's helping or he's helping the, the you know, the regulator investigate, right?
Grooming Techniques in Scamming
00:15:25
Speaker
So like they, they are kind of part of this investigation. And then you have like classic big butchering scams where let's say maybe there's a romance component or investment component. And sometimes when there's just an investment component, they may say to the victim, hey, I'm giving you insider trader information. You shouldn't tell anyone. So there's that secrecy. If it's a romantic component, then a victim may feel very loyal to the person that has groomed them. But in each case, there will be a period of grooming. And I think one thing you need to realize, um you know, by the time that a bank intervenes, you think
00:16:02
Speaker
You know, I think sometimes we think that a bank has intervened at the point where you're still a rational human being that has entered the scam, but you're no longer that person. You know, you enter the scam. The scammers are very, very good at grooming you. So usually there's a communication which is positive. They get you hooked on that communication. Either there's a friendship or romance component. And then... they start kind of withdrawing from the conversation unless you're doing what they want. So there's a period where, you know, and I've i've read tons of pig butchering conversation, like texts, there's usually a point at which a scammer introduces an investment. And if you're not going along with it, they'll start withdrawing from the conversation. So the conversation is still very friendly. It'll just be shorter. And a victim will register this on a very subliminal level and it'll cause anxiety, right? And that's how it starts. So from the very positive, you know, frequent conversation where a scammer is initiating, scammer is asking you about your life, you are talking about very vulnerable things. Suddenly you are starting to lose access to this person. And we know scarcity is a persuasion technique. It's very potent when something is scarce. You want it more and you'll do more to get it. So the only way you can talk to the scammer at this point, which you think is your love like loved one, a person of interest, whether a friend or a romantic interest, is if you're entertaining this idea of investing. So this is how they get you into even thinking about that. So that's like probably you're feeling mild anxiety, realizing something's being pulled away from you. You're trying to hold on to it. And then if you still don't comply, they'll start using verbal abuse. And that's usually very subtle too. It's never, hey, you know, like very, very obvious thing, which any person would walk away from. It's usually, hey, like, what's the delay? I thought you're not a procrastinator. You know, there'll be like a very, very subtle things.
00:18:02
Speaker
And in that case, you start thinking, you know, you told them already that you like to be, ah you know, do things in life and and you would like to get money to be able to travel or whatever. They'll use all of that against you in this like slight verbal thing. And then that intensifies if you're not doing what you want. So by the time you actually agree to a large sum of money, maybe you invested a smaller amount of money, bank didn't notice because it looked normal. um You know, ah they they didn't freak out at $2,000, but freaking out at $50 or $100, right? ah At that time, you are a person who is highly anxious, ah totally
Psychological Toll on Scam Victims
00:18:42
Speaker
helpless. You want to...
00:18:43
Speaker
Just hold on to this love that you have or friendship that you have. You're broken. You don't know. You're highly anxious, you know, and that period, you know, and sometimes this can go on for months. This period of wearing the person down can cause things like losing executive functions. So your memory gets affected. Your decision-making gets affected. So, you know, what banks don't realize that when they intercept people,
00:19:09
Speaker
something that's no longer a person that's entered the scam. That is now worn out person. And the best way I can explain that is like, think about what happens when police are interrogating a suspect.
00:19:24
Speaker
The They will go on for ages. They will repeat the same things over and over. The person won't eat. The person won't sleep. And eventually they may just of like, you know, confess just to get out of that situation. And that happens to victims of fraud, but on a very, very kind of like smaller increments, obviously not over 24 hours or 48 hours, but it does happen. They wear you down. So when a bank intervenes, it's very difficult because at that point, the victim believes, truly believes everything that a scammer has laid out. They, you know, the scammer may tell them that the bank will ah stop them and they'll coach them on how to do it. Sometimes they're just so groomed that they believe that they are building a life with this person. So the scammer, I think one of the victims said to me, like the scammer groomed me so much. I didn't have to tell any lies to the bank.
00:20:19
Speaker
Right. So like what they told the bank, they truly believed they believed. They believed. And, you know, one thing I want to mention as well, because that came up um through some of the research I've done recently, some of the victims have told me by that point of like a Roman scam, they have, the scammer has got them to log into their bank account, transfer some money. This bank account wasn't real. It's a prototype of a product that's, you know, they created a something that looks real with AI, but isn't. But,
00:20:48
Speaker
The victim may have moved some money for them because their account was blocked from the country they were in or whatever. And the victim could see that it had lots of money in that account. So they believe certain things about a scummer. And that's also subliminal manipulation. So...
00:21:04
Speaker
It's very difficult, you know, because when we think about by the time the bank intervenes, they think they're intervening with a person who has just come across this scam. But no, they're intervening where the person is highly anxious. They are really already very affected. And, you know, you talked about these examples of job scam, romance scam, butchering scam, which are all, I'll call it scams that prey on opportunity.
00:21:30
Speaker
And then there are scams that prey on fear. So like you didn't pay your toll or sextortion or like something bad is going to happen if you don't or else. So in those scenarios, they're typically much shorter, but I think the intensity of the... Tell me about that.
Fear-Based Scams vs. Opportunity-Based Scams
00:21:47
Speaker
Maybe it's a question. How does the bank, when the bank talks to that type of scam victim, what is the psychological effect there? um Is it similar?
00:21:56
Speaker
ah So you have to think about like every single scam I've not, ah unless it's an email that's pretending to be a mundane confirmation email, just trying to steal some details. Every single scam will have evoked some kind of Israel influence. um So the like be that excitement, fear, and specifically scams that go on for a long time, evoke many different ones. In the beginning, like for example, a pig butchering scam will evoke excitement, sexual desire. That's ah also really potent visceral influence. And then later on, when
00:22:29
Speaker
A victim thinks that if they don't do what they are asked, they're going to lose the romantic interest or lose the money they already invested. So that's the sphere there too, right? So, you know, ah like I think you need to understand that by the time the victim goes to the bank, they're afraid of losing whatever they invested already or whatever, you know, relationship they have. But you're right. I think there are some scams that, you know, if you get like a job, like a paid toll or you get a text saying ah you have to pay some money, otherwise you're going to be arrested or whatever. They do evoke fear and fear is very, very potent emotion. and Some people are very fear averse, which means they can't tolerate fear and they'll do anything to just avoid it. So they'll pay things quickly and, you know, it affects a judgment.
00:23:16
Speaker
It elevates a heart rate, a blood pressure. Like it it has a physiological effect on you. Just the same as romantic love does too, but in a different direction, I guess. The whole point is...
00:23:27
Speaker
You know, you have to evoke some kind of ah visceral influence for something to be effective. And then usually they are bolstered by other techniques such as urgency ah because you don't want people to cool down and think about it rationally. So you want them to act very, very quickly. And I think there's no greater fear than, let's say, using a deepfake of your child's Exactly. I can't even imagine how anybody would be able to think clearly in those moments. So yeah, definitely I think a lot of the scams are preying on these very primal emotions that quite often ah evoke physiological reactions in us.
00:24:10
Speaker
And they make us kind of like lose a more rational side of of thinking, at least for a while. And fear is one of the most, I'd i'd say fear is one of the biggest things.
00:24:25
Speaker
Scams are getting smarter and your customers are overwhelmed. Rangers AI gives them a simple on-device tool to verify suspicious messages before the social engineering happens. It reduces operational costs, builds trust, and keeps your brand the hero.
00:24:41
Speaker
Learn more at rangersai.com.
Empathy in Bank Interventions
00:24:48
Speaker
So let's continue on the scam lifecycle. So let's say that the financial institution has controls, and I think it's very common now we see this as consumers, all these messages that try to ask questions. Are you sure you know this person? What is the name? All these questions, these notifications within the session. I wanted to get your perspective on ah what, if this is all at all effective at that point in time, if there is a scam, and what the what would be more effective than others? know, what types of notifications could be more effective than others? Because I remember you talked about asking questions that would make the person think.
00:25:27
Speaker
um And I'm just curious, like from a, not talking to a person, but the notific in-app notifications, are they effective? What could be effective potentially? Yeah, like it's, it's, it really depends on a person as well. So like, you know, people are different, the way they think is different. It also depends how long the scam has been going on, and whether the person is actually at the point where they already feeling there's some warning signs.
00:25:51
Speaker
So there's no one answer. But one of the things that I hear over and over and over again is where victims have finally realized something was wrong and they are ready to accept it is when somebody intervened in an empathetic way. So rather than questioning them, because you you also have to understand one of the things that when you ask, have you known this person for long? Right? like Like, sure, I've known this person for four months, but it feels longer because we talk hundreds of times a day and I've told them all of my fears and all of my future plans. So that question won't land as well when somebody is in that kind of visceral influence of, you know, they're building a future with somebody. So I would say just like, ah I think the biggest thing is a lot of the times as well, when institutions intervene, you know, or even family members intervene, they intervene from a, from a position of authority. And that has been proven not to work, you know? So like, just because you've told somebody, this is a scam, don't do it. Doesn't mean they're going to really listen. You have to understand that people, you know, if I think it's not a scam, this is ah my future husband. Why? What motivates me to listen to your advice over that person's advice? So maybe asking questions such as, how are you feeling? Are you feeling, you know, how are you feeling about this relationship? Is everything okay? Is like, tell me about the the relationship you have. Tell me about why you're sending the money. Like, Like make it more conversational sometimes rather than actually having this, you know, I think sometimes people can be on guard because a lot of the times as well, I think I've heard the victims tell me too, that the scammer has told them like, okay, so when a bank intervenes, what what do you think you should tell them? They prepare, that they prepare. Exactly. So I think like perhaps maybe coming across and I don't know what the ideal answer is, but like having more empathy and and making messages softer so they don't come across as like this authoritarian do's and don'ts because everybody switches away from that. I think so. There are two there are two points in time, right? You have the in-app messages. that Where you can't really ask deep questions, but you can still think about something that will cause them to think in a little more empathy.
00:28:09
Speaker
um Or like we've seen cases where like explain why you're asking maybe. And then the second maybe in many financial institutions, I think mostly in Europe, I know in the UK a lot. deployed the break the spell teams where they did hire psychologists.
Bank Teams and Scam Prevention Strategies
00:28:26
Speaker
Maybe in the past it was more like just the fraud operations team, but now the fraud operations team also includes people who have the education to speak with empathy and very be very deliberate about how to communicate. But those messages, the automatic ones that come up in you know in case the risk seems to be high, I'm wondering how they can be more I've never thought about injecting empathy, even in the questions at that point in time. And I think that's a really um important approach.
00:28:56
Speaker
So let's talk about the Break the Spell teams. I'm sure you've heard about it. And and I don't know if you talked to anyone. and But what generally um is the approach that you've seen or heard that's more successful?
00:29:07
Speaker
And you started to talk about empathy. I think that's a key, obviously. Yeah. Like, I mean, I don't, ah you know, a lot of the times the banks can't really tell you what what their secret sauce is or anything like that. I definitely consulted with some banks as to what could be effective. It's not an easy thing, especially when people are groomed. I think for more quicker scams that, you know, where somebody is just investing because,
00:29:34
Speaker
you know, like they see their friends investing or something like that, you know, you can interject a little bit more effectively. For the grooming, it's definitely more difficult. And there, I would say there needs to be, you know, like I think empathy is a big thing. I remember one victim said to me, you know, finally what made me stop the whole thing is my financial advisor said, look, I think you should do what you think is right for your relationship, but this is what I think. So how about this?
00:30:05
Speaker
Right. Like just stall a little bit and see how how the person reacts. You know, let's try and stall. um So and and I talk about that in my book. Right. Like when people are under the visceral influence, you want to act. So telling them not to act is very, very counterintuitive for the person to do. So like what I talk about ah in my book is how do you moderate your response? Okay, you want to respond in some way. You want to act. You want to do something. How do you moderate? So this would be the thing like, okay, let's just stall it. Don't send the money today. Let's see what happens if you, you know, just tell this person you can't arrange a transfer today. How about we wait for five days or something like that? Something... see whether the person is going to turn ugly and and put pressure on you. So you kind of like almost preempt what the scammer will do. So you're not telling the person don't send the money.
00:31:00
Speaker
You know, you're telling them, hey, if you still want to send the money after five days, you know, but like, let's just see what happens. So kind of moderating the response a little bit so that the victim feels you're not stopping them doing what i want to do but you are actually putting in some friction between a scammer and the victim. Usually at that point, the scammer will get angry or will intensify the pressure. The victim will then get another warning sign and will confirm that.
00:31:24
Speaker
some of the things, but just approaching not from the position, don't do this. This is a scam, you know, approach this. Okay. This could be like a genuine relationship. Absolutely. You'd want to help your loved one. You know, we have had similar situations. I would also say as well, like i I've been thinking about this a lot. People learn through stories. Like traditionally, if you look at how children learn, they learn through like storytelling, they learn through like reading books about stories and
Storytelling in Scam Education
00:31:54
Speaker
stuff. And stories have been used to warn people. You know, and I bring up Pinocchio all the time, because if you read the old story of Pinocchio, it talks about him being defrauded by the fox and the cat or and how they swindled him. And like we traditionally use these stories to warn children to kind of like really beware. um One thing that i've I've quite frequently told banks, you know, as well when i I consulted with them is I know it's a lot when you have an app or you have a marketing email to send, but I think you need to be preventing rather than intervening because at the point of intervention, the cards are stacked against you. But if you're preventing through storytelling, tell the stories of the customers, you know, so that so that when I'm in the same situation, I already remembered some of the stories you've told me when everything was fine. And I think interventions, especially when the victims were groomed, are very difficult. And I wish I had an advice that would work, but it's it's difficult.
00:32:58
Speaker
Yeah, and and ah we'll get to that point as a prevention is my bread and butter. I constantly talk about that. If we can get in front of the scam and and just what you said, what you said about you're not dealing with the same individual, this individual is now manipulated. One story that I remember um reading an article about was a social worker in California.
00:33:20
Speaker
was told that she didn't report to her to testify in front of a court in a case of a family that she worked with. And so she's going to be fined and they threatened her, her license will be taken. So they put her in the situation where it's not a relationship where she can say, I'll arrange for it later, but it's more like you need the money. And she went to ATMs all over town and she was... with a criminal on the phone who like, is initially it was with empathy, but they really described how their behavior shifted because she couldn't find money in one ATM and then another, and it really shifted into threatening. And in the story, there was ah someone at one of the stores she went to to find an ATM who asked her, are you okay? Plastistan, is this a scam? Let me help you. And I think at that point where we have
00:34:09
Speaker
where we do have where they're not alone and we can talk to them and we can say, let's see what happens if you do this. If it escalates, then that's a tell. I think if we could put that into preemptive education, again, romance scams are really tricky, but I think other types of scams that that that showcase these behaviors could be that those stories. i think that's a great, great perspective that that we need to put into education.
00:34:37
Speaker
So let's talk about education and effectiveness of education. So I know that financial institutions send emails to their customers, have newsletters. I don't know what the engagement is in this content, but I know that ads or websites, Canada just had this new campaign that they launched for their Canadian scam coalition. And i think that's The fun, engaging ads, also HSBC Lloyd's in the UK had done that in the past. I think those have been really interesting. My question is, how long does it last? What is the impact and how do we create education that is really influential? And I think As far as I understand from research, it's really just has to be constant. it Can't be a one and done. It has to be repetitive.
00:35:21
Speaker
Yes, it has to be. i would say um one thing that has been known not to work. I think there's a research paper out there on that is is the authoritarian warnings. And the authoritarian warnings are what I see the most, you know, when I see some kind of, ah you know, education. So there'll be something. Beware of is the. Yeah, never click links.
00:35:44
Speaker
Don't panic. when When somebody calls you out of the blue and scares you, don't panic. Like that's basically like saying to somebody, when you're scared, don't panic. You're going to panic because you're scared. Like it's a physiological reaction. So it doesn't work. You know, it doesn't work. And people switch off from it. And um I think that that that paper, and I think it ah it reflected on like IT t warnings, you know, so. But like this is not dissimilar. um it It really found that the warnings that explain why you're being asked to do a certain thing and what are the consequences of not doing it are more effective. Because it's not just like if you tell me, don't do something, you know, don't push that button. All you're going to think about is pushing the button. just you Don't push the red button. Yeah, exactly.
00:36:33
Speaker
so So I think like the education needs to be a little bit smarter and it needs to be engaging. And I think, you you know, you're right. I think it needs to be constant because people will forget and people don't think about scams, right? Like every single victim out there has told me, ah you know, that I've ever interviewed has told me, I thought this would never happen to me because I'm smart, you know? So they don't even entertain the idea. And I think like just as scammers are persuading them subliminally, we need to persuade them subliminally Not by saying don't do this, but just saying, hey, hear about this story.
00:37:06
Speaker
This is an um unbelievable story. And this is what happened to this person. So that you kind of like are absorbing these stories and you're becoming smarter as a result of it. Therefore, you may be able to recognize it a little bit
Effective Scam Prevention Campaigns
00:37:18
Speaker
more. One other thing that I saw work really, really well, and I wish that that got funded more, when I was doing my PhD, I was very friendly with a person who was running a, ah like a campaign, UK campaign for scam prevention. I think it was called Take Five. And ah Tony, who was running that, was very personable, was doing this on Twitter, engaged tons of people, would would go and give talks and people engaged with it, you know, because it wasn't just like empty advice. It was actually a person they could relate to that was a known person constantly doing these ah these things that would engage, you know, going to different towns and talking about. in banks and talking to bank you know customers and so on and so forth. And and unfortunately, i like I think that got defunded at some point. All of the good things that you know are aimed at like prevention of this personal fraud get defunded because like I guess the the ROI is not immediately... It's not quantifiable, I think. It's not quantifiable immediately, but it is. Because how much are banks paying in refunding victims? Yes. right And operational costs and deposit losses and trust. Exactly. Exactly. So I think, you know, having things that are engaging, having things that are omnipresent, having conversations with people, not just like telling them, ah you know, don't click this. People are going to click this. I mean, you know, you get emails all the time that are legitimate asking you to click things.
00:38:57
Speaker
Why wouldn't you click on something that looks legitimate but
Early Detection and Education in Scam Prevention
00:39:01
Speaker
isn't? Yeah. You know, so yeah. You're definitely making me think about ScamRanger and the language that we use in our app. And I think that's a really, really interesting point. And what are your thoughts around ah at the time of? So I always say if we could get in front of the scam and the initial point of communication, if there could be a red flag shown there, um what are your thoughts about that? Is that a point of interjection that could be effective? Yeah, I think definitely there will be more effective than interjecting at the point where you're groomed. And and those are the scams that actually defraud you not of like a couple of hundred dollars, but of like oh a massive sums of money, right? Like I think when you're not not invested emotionally yet in something... I mean, it may be difficult if you get, let's say, a call from a scammer pretending that your child has been kidnapped. I think that's a tough one. But like for most things like, hey, you need to pay this toll or something like that, you're still kind of like not, you know, you're still in that point where you haven't started communicating with a scammer because every time you engage with a scammer, it's going to be more difficult to stop engaging further, When to respond, it's ah it's almost like game over. Exactly. As you respond, they can tell you more, they can they can explain more, they can scare you more, they can excite you more or whatever the scam is. So i think definitely getting people at the point where they're not emotionally involved yet is is a better tactic than intervening at the point where they are brainwashed completely. It's difficult, I'd say, ah with some types of scams, like fear types of scams. And this is where education becomes ah very important because if you teach people how scammers are going to make them feel, then when they do get that wave of fear, they may recognize some of the pre prevention material that warned about that. And so it's very difficult to break that initial like emotion Especially fear. Fear is a very potent one because it's instant.
00:41:08
Speaker
There's an instant physical reaction to it too. yeah and people don't want to feel that. They don't want to feel that. Yeah. There are some very, very small minority of people that enjoy fear. They enjoy jumping out of like different things and they enjoy like, but most people are fear averse. You don't want to feel scared. it's It's an uncomfortable feeling, right? Yeah, interesting. I think it's two different kinds of fear, though. It's fear that I i i choose to engage it with so and fear that is yeah upon me. But I think my biggest takeaway is really um the holistic approach. I think we kind of traveled across the scam lifecycle.
00:41:43
Speaker
And there are points where different, if if we look from a responsibility perspective, ah as a community, as, ah ah you know, institutions, etc. I think, ah holistically, there are a lot of points that we can interject. and we definitely need to deploy a holistic approach to protect consumers and obviously employ empathy. But I think we always say that and you just really broke it down today. What does that mean and how does that impact?
00:42:10
Speaker
And not just because we want to be kind to people, but because it's effective to be yes with empathy when you approach and and and not, you know, not because it's just it's the right thing, but it's it's the way to make them think and have them engage with you versus just shut down. So yeah,
00:42:27
Speaker
And I think the more you invest in prevention, the easier will be to intervene too. Because if somebody already has some understanding of things, then it's going to be easier to intervene. And think about prevention as like medical prevention. We go for scans, we go for blood tests, right? Imagine if we didn't.
00:42:45
Speaker
What is the damage by the time you find out or you're trying to do something, right? yeah So I think like that, you know, can easily apply to scans. The more you invest in prevention and education, the easier it will be to intervene because that, you know, you would just need to remind the person of some of the things they already not like, oh, what is that? It's, oh gosh, I realize now.
AI's Potential Role in Scams
00:43:11
Speaker
One last question though, um a little Futurama here, but it's really here already, AI. So we talked about scams and grooming and tactics and all that. um Today we have hundreds and thousands of individuals sitting in scam compounds scamming people.
00:43:26
Speaker
Tomorrow, will we see hundreds of thousands of AI bots, agentic AI scamming people? Will AI, and I i think we've seen with character AI already, ability to manipulate individuals into doing things, and unfortunately, very sad stories as well. What are your thoughts on that? I know I'm not expecting a yeah AI expertise here, but... Can have you seen? I'm very scared of AI. I'm very scared, uh, like, uh, for two, two main reason. Uh, first reason is that humans rely on what they see in here, right? If you come, like if that gets distorted, your reality is distorted. So how, how will you believe, right? Like, like, why wouldn't I believe if I hear a voice of my best friend saying they're in trouble? right? Or my dad, or, you know, that is one thing that scammers weren't able to easily do before or not very well.
00:44:19
Speaker
Now it's so easy and you can do it with a minimal cost. So like, I'm really scared of that because I think those types of scams that prey upon our biggest fears are very effective. And then on the second thing, as you mentioned, AI is allowing Scam at ah such a large scale, relatively cheap, right? So, you know, like i think the possibilities are endless. Even crafting ah emails that are like legitimate looking, but falsifying documents. Think about it like in terms of how does the scam work? Scam has to appear credible to work. So to appear credible, you have to give some credibility. And that's usually done by falsifying some kind of documents, falsifying websites, creating fake v websites, creating all of these things cost a lot of money to the scammer in the past. But now it's super easy with AI. And so everything's more convincing. and And that is happening. It's happening.
00:45:17
Speaker
that is That is absolutely happening. And I've seen, um and I think I shared it also, ah how a website is easily created and and, you know, a replicate of a website, an existing one. But I'm actually talking about the grooming with AI, you know, the effectiveness of of AI in grooming individuals and having the the whole conversation. Yeah, I think we're already seeing some of that. I think you can probably reproduce a program and agent like, yeah you know, ah you know, all of the manuals that you had to give ah to an actual person texting someone. Now a bot can just like use that manual, right? Like that's how I imagine
00:45:54
Speaker
to do that. So I think like whether it's going to be cheaper than actually human trafficked victims, it's another story, you know, because obviously they are being coerced and beaten into doing this crime, but definitely you can do it at scale with AI. So that's a definitely point for food for thought for the providers of AI to put their guardrails around that. And I know they're thinking about it because there were cases of individuals who, and and we see that with character AI. Yeah. who did things that are very sad, so sad outcomes.
The Power of Empathy in Scam Education
00:46:33
Speaker
Okay, so I wanted to thank you so much for, and end on a positive note here, that empathy is is definitely the key in education and definitely learned a lot from you.
00:46:48
Speaker
A lot of food for thought. Thank you so much for being on the podcast and sharing your insights. You're welcome. It was Thank