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Episode 30: How the Hard Can Also Be Good with Lisa Whittle
89 Plays3 years ago
Lisa Whittle is the author of eight books and a sought-after Bible teacher. A pastor’s daughter and longtime ministry leader in issues relevant to the church, Lisa is the founder of Ministry Strong and the popular Jesus over Everything podcast, which debuted in the top twenty-five Christian podcasts. Her love runs deep to see people pursue Jesus for life, grow deep roots of faith, and walk strong in the midst of a world that so often seems to have gone crazy. Lisa has done master’s work in marriage and family counseling, is the cofounder of Called Creatives, and has been featured on numerous media outlets through the years. She and her family live in North Carolina.
Mentioned in this episode:
The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis
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This podcast is produced and edited by Angie Elkins Media, Inc.
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Transcript
Introduction to Root Like Faith Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, I'm Ruth Schwank and I'm so thrilled you're listening in with us at Root Like Faith. It is our deepest desire to encourage and equip men and women to be rooted in God's word, transformed by the love of Jesus and moved by his mission and the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing is more important.
00:00:17
Speaker
Well, we have a really good episode today. Actually Pat's going to be interviewing a friend of mine. I've known her online for a very, very long time. And do you know what I appreciate about Lisa Whittle? She preaches the truth. I mean, I just, she, what she teaches, um, like when she shares online, it is, it is always hitting home with me. I just absolutely love her. This is going to be a really good
The Hard Good: Book Theme and Insights
00:00:42
Speaker
conversation.
00:00:42
Speaker
She's got a brand new book out, which we're going to be talking about in the interview in our conversation called The Hard Good, which I love. You know, hard and good don't typically go together. And so her brand new book is called The Hard Good, showing up for God to work in you when you want to shut down. I love that phrase shut down because, boy, how appropriate. It just seems like there's so many people you talk to.
00:01:01
Speaker
right now, and I have felt this way. It's like, I just want to shut down. I'm tired of social media. I'm just whatever. And so I just love that subtitle and the title of the book. And so I think our conversation is going to be a great encouragement. It's going to be really good because there's so much that people are going through all the time. So many of us face so many different circumstances. And the tendency, like she says, is to just shut down, just to run away.
00:01:27
Speaker
But what if we saw it in a different way? So I think this is going to be a really great conversation.
Meet Lisa Whittle: Author and Speaker
00:01:32
Speaker
Let me tell you a little bit about Lisa. Lisa Whittle is the author of eight books and her wit and bold bottom line approach. That's what I was trying to say. Bold bottom line approach. It's so true. I love her. I've made her a sought after Bible teacher. She is also the creator of a companion video Bible study for Jesus over everything.
00:01:53
Speaker
A pastor's daughter and longtime ministry leader in issues relevant to the church, Lisa is the founder of Ministry Strong and the popular Jesus Over Everything podcast, which she also calls Joe, which is so cool. I love that. Which debuted in the top 25 of Christian podcasts. Her love runs deep to see people pursue Jesus for life, grow deep roots of faith, and walk strong in the midst of a world that so often seems to have gone crazy.
00:02:19
Speaker
Lisa has done master's work in marriage and family counseling, advocated for Compassion International, and has been featured on numerous media outlets throughout the years. She and her family live in North Carolina. And let me just tell you, friend, you want to follow her. She is on Instagram at Lisa Whittle. L-I-S-A-W-H-I-T-T-L-E. So this is gonna be good. Let's get this conversation started.
00:02:48
Speaker
Well, welcome again to Root
Personal Stories: Growth through Hardship
00:02:49
Speaker
Like Faith. My guest today is Lisa Whittle, and she is the author of a brand new book called The Hard Good. And we're going to be talking about that book a little bit today. And so unfortunately, we lost about the first eight or nine minutes of our conversation.
00:03:03
Speaker
It's never happened before. And so I want to kind of briefly bring you up to speed as to where we're at in the conversation and then you'll hear really her response to one of the questions I have just asked. So we were about eight, nine minutes into our conversation and Lisa and I were talking a little bit about what it's like to grow up as a PK, as a pastor's kid. And we were talking about the loss of her father, which she shares that story in the opening chapter of the book. And we were just talking about hard stuff in general and just life and what God wants to do and
00:03:33
Speaker
We were talking a little bit about Philippians chapter 3 verse 10, where Paul says, I want to know Christ. He has to know the power of His resurrection and participation in His sufferings, becoming like Him in His death, and so somehow attaining to the resurrection from the dead. And we're just talking about this idea that so many of us, we try to escape the heart or we just endure it.
00:03:54
Speaker
but there's this part of the spiritual journey where we begin to really embrace it. We may not prefer it, we may not like it, but we embrace and accept that God is asking us to walk through something difficult and opening ourselves up to what it is that He wants to do in
Embracing Suffering for Spiritual Growth
00:04:10
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us.
00:04:10
Speaker
in through us. And so we've really been talking about that theme. And so I'm going to turn it over to Lisa. You're going to hear her response to a question where we're talking about how does someone begin to embrace the harder accepted, even if they don't prefer it or like it. And so praying that this conversation is a great encouragement to you, regardless of what you're walking through today. Today, as we look at somebody with this with this perspective and we say,
00:04:38
Speaker
I don't know how they're how they're still getting around with all that that they're going through, but but in so many of these cases it is because they have experienced God.
00:04:52
Speaker
changing them in such a way that they are operating with this sort of perspective that others of us might not have because we just haven't sat through that transformational process with God. So it really is.
00:05:09
Speaker
Rather than saying like I appreciate the embrace suffering, but I don't really want to do that. I want you to know that there's something in that for you like God doesn't. God didn't create this setup so that you would lose God created it so that there would be this beautiful benefit to your life so that you could get through this and so that you could not only get through this, but experience beauty.
00:05:39
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even in the midst of hard. And that's not just made up, that's a promise. Yeah, I think that idea of embracing is on the surface, it sounds like enduring, but embracing, I think of a husband who embraces his wife. There's a receiving that God is, I think in suffering and hard stuff, we oftentimes do feel like all God is doing is taking.
00:06:02
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And yet when we embrace what He has for us, when we open our heart to what He is asking us to walk through, we're really opening our heart to who He
Redefining 'Good' Spiritually
00:06:11
Speaker
is. He gives us His very presence, that we experience the grace of God, and we experience a new intimacy.
00:06:18
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And I think that's what Paul's talking about, again, in Philippians 3, when he talks about, I want to know Christ, not just in the power of His resurrection, but I want to share in His suffering. Because there is, there's an intimacy that we can only know, I think, in the heart or in the suffering. And that sounds like such a strange thing, especially given the values of our culture.
00:06:41
Speaker
But there is an intimacy that I think comes with knowing Christ and His suffering, walking with Him, embracing what He has for us. And so it is, I think the more honest we are, the more intimate that relationship becomes. I love what you say towards the beginning of the book, how we just need to redefine good, that part of that challenge of
00:07:07
Speaker
seeing the good in the hard stuff is redefining what we think good is. You say it this way, if you truly want to be spiritually transformed, you have to redefine good. Unpack that a little bit more. I know we've sort of already touched on it, but unpack that a little bit more. Well, it just became abundantly clear to me that because of the loud voice of culture, we don't really even know what good is anymore. And the reason this is really important is because
00:07:36
Speaker
First of all, if we're going to talk about hard good, we're going to have to know what that end is. Because if we buy into culture's idea of good, then what we're buying into is this idea that we can create our own good life, that we can have good on our own, and that
00:08:02
Speaker
that good is just sort of mustered up, planned out, you know, packaged, sold, all of this. And what happens then is, and what has happened and happening with that definition is one, we just completely discount the need for God in any of it. And then also,
00:08:27
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We then look around and we look at somebody else's life and we say, well, they have a better life than we do. I must have done something wrong. So we spend our entire life in a life of comparison, in a life of feeling completely inadequate, feeling like we missed the instructions on how to have a good life. And so we don't even, and then we really misunderstand
00:08:56
Speaker
what the point in heart is. So we just avoid hard because if hard is the conduit for that, then we don't want it. Cause that's actually going to be pretty empty in the end. So it's really important for me to define for people, no, here's where you're actually going. And here's what the actual point is. Good is according to the word. First of all, and we've already talked about it, God is good in his very nature.
00:09:26
Speaker
So anything, anything, any process, any moment, any difficulty that, that takes you to the actual sustenance for your life.
Acceptance and Spiritual Progression
00:09:40
Speaker
The thing that will keep you going, that will keep you breathing, that will keep you upright is going to be good for you. Anything that moves you in the actual direction instead of away from that. So that's part of it. It's, it's also,
00:09:55
Speaker
growth because what happens is we want the season life because we understand that the seasoned life is what gives us the ability to endure the next hard thing that we can't see around the corner. We just don't want the seasoning that comes with it. And that's not possible. So the growth process is good because it gives you the seasoned life.
00:10:20
Speaker
And the good life is a life that is kingdom usable. It is not a life of comfort and ease, though we want that in the moment. But when you look back to the end of your life, if you've ever been with someone at the end of their life, if you've ever been with someone who's actually had it all, wealth-wise, homes, cars, anything they could have ever wanted,
00:10:49
Speaker
the overwhelming testimony is the only thing that mattered is God. The only thing that matters is Jesus. And we've heard that testimony over and over again. And I can just tell you after a while, we just probably should believe it. Right. So the good is
00:11:11
Speaker
the life that is usable for the kingdom of god you know i had someone asked me the other day they said you know how do people get the life that they really want and i said you know i don't know if this is going to be the answer that you want because i i sense this is sort of like a give me a three-step formula for you know that that really that that successful achievement i'm going to tell you the life that you really want is the life that at the end of the day you have served jesus with everything you have because
00:11:40
Speaker
I've tried life multiple ways and I can tell you that the most fulfilling and beautiful moment is when I lay my head on the pillow at night and I know that I've served the kingdom of God because I know that I've made deposits into something that is lasting versus
00:12:03
Speaker
deposits of things that won't matter tomorrow, potentially. And so, you know, that that's really important. And if we look at if we understand good to be what it actually is, then hard seems more
00:12:19
Speaker
important and seems more, we seem more willing to be able to endure it. Yeah, when you're talking, it reminded me of a quote from Thomas A. Kempis, his book, Invitation of Christ, there's a great line that has always stuck with me where he says that at some point you'll be separated from everyone and everything but Christ.
00:12:38
Speaker
I just thought, boy, that is such a powerful statement. It's exactly what you're talking about, that all of the stuff that we have, the friendships, all of that means nothing. On the day when we take our last breath and enter into eternity, what matters most is whether we know Christ and are known by Him.
00:12:58
Speaker
and whether we've served him in his kingdom. And so I think, you know, what is just, yeah, very, very well said. I know in the book you talk about, you know, you kind of talk about, I think 10, if I'm remembering right, 10 different, you know, things that are, you know, hard, but good circumstances. And you kind of touch on each of those and you sort of set up the hard,
00:13:23
Speaker
and then the good that God can bring out of it. I want to highlight just a couple of them real quickly. Obviously, we don't have time to go through all of them, but each of them are excellent. But one of the ones that you mentioned of those 10 hard, good circumstances are accepting things you wish were different. So explain that for a minute. What do you mean by that? And what is the good that God brings out of that hard circumstance? Accepting something that you wish for something different is hugely important. I would say universally,
00:13:53
Speaker
that is a difficult thing for, I don't know that I've met anybody that doesn't struggle with that. And that's why it needed to go in chapter one. That's why we needed to talk about it early. It's something that's certainly been difficult for me. I think what's happened with a lot of this is that we either live in a place of denial that something is true because we feel like that if we deny that it's true and somehow we can
00:14:21
Speaker
uh, prolong the reality of it. Um, I think there's also a different personalities deal with this in different ways. Uh, if we even push back on it in some other personalities, we can, um, resist the idea. But the, the, the thing is for all of us, it's, it's a measure of sort of our way to try to humanly control something that we didn't prefer. And,
00:14:51
Speaker
I felt like it was super important to, to make a couple of distinctions. First of all, to let people know that preference and acceptance are two different things. You know, you can, you can go your whole life and not prefer something that happened, not prefer something even that you were born with.
00:15:11
Speaker
Um, I think it's, I think to make that demand of ourselves to say, you've got to prefer every circumstance that you were born with or every circumstance that's happened to you. I think that's a very high demand that would make of ourselves. And I don't actually think it's fair because not every circumstance is great. And I don't think we ought to Pollyanna that and say like, Oh, you just need to prefer it.
00:15:35
Speaker
And I think it's important when people understand and for me, this was important to understand that I can not still not prefer it, but also I can accept it and those be two separate things. Then, um, I actually move forward in my life and it's really, really powerful. And so that was important. And then also in that chapter, I talk about identifying the stifling, what ifs in your life.
00:16:03
Speaker
which typically center around three. What if I, what if they, what if God? And, um, those are just really questions that, that are, that are circular, that are never ending, that we ask ourselves to sort of in our brain, try to rewrite history and we can't. And so, um, I believe that the Lord wants us to move to a place of, of acceptance and saying, what now, what is,
00:16:30
Speaker
And what can God do with what is now? And I think that's really powerful. It's also biblical, forgetting what is behind and moving to what is ahead. I mean, these are biblical principles, not Lisa Whittle's ideas. And so that's why they'll work. And acceptance is one of the most important, because it's one of the holdouts for many people. Many people would say, hey, I feel like I've gone through a lot of the grieving process.
00:16:58
Speaker
And I've gotten even this message since people started reading the hard good. I've gone through a lot of the grief and I thought, I wondered why I just couldn't really move on. And I realized it was that piece, that piece of acceptance. And that's really helped me to go ahead and move on. And so I think it's really key.
Trusting God with a Hurt Heart
00:17:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's one of the things you say towards the end of the book, I think is so good. You talk about, well, you say it this way, it's hard to open back up a hurt heart, but it's harder to live with a chronically closed one. And so I want you to explain that you also go on and talk about opening our hearts back up again, really has nothing to do with other people. It has everything to do with how much we believe God. If we believe he has us, loves us, and can be trusted, we can live without the fear that holds us back. I mean, how does someone who's been hurt begin to open his or her heart again? Yeah.
00:17:47
Speaker
Well, part of it is exactly what you said. It is trusting that God can manage our heart even when someone else mismanages our heart or has mismanaged. And I think that's super important. I think one of the things we do is because humans are here around us, we can see them, we can touch them, and God is not
00:18:14
Speaker
We attach ourselves to other people. We ask them to be to us what only God can be. And so in that process, we become wildly disappointed when they don't operate in the same realm as our sovereign God. You know, that doesn't mean we live expecting people to disappoint us. What it does mean is
00:18:37
Speaker
We just don't ask people to do the things for us that only God can do. And I think that's a really important distinction. It is. I've lived with my heart.
00:18:52
Speaker
at least partially closed. And I can tell you that the angst that brings, the bitterness that can bring on, the skepticism, the looking over your shoulder and not believing anybody, not being able to believe the best about people, that is no way to live. And there's a lot of people that live that way. It's sort of like having a pulse and walking around alive, but not really living.
00:19:22
Speaker
And you know, what a shame to have the privilege of being able to have breath in our lungs, but yet not being alive to our life.
00:19:31
Speaker
And so, you know, people will say, Lisa, can I live with a closed heart? Well, yeah, I mean, you actually can live with one. I've seen people live with one and you can go to your grave with one, but in the other sense, no, you can't really live with one, not if you're going to be awake to your life. And, you know, in this day and time when the world is so hard, and I'm sure like me, Patrick, you've heard daily from people who have lost someone they've loved, you know,
00:20:03
Speaker
It's just remarkable to me. You can scroll Facebook and you can see someone else who's died today or in this hour or whatever. And I think, boy, we have this gift of continuing to have life in our body. If we're listening to the show, we do. And so I think the way that we honor that and we honor even people that we mourn is by going on and
00:20:31
Speaker
living with an open heart. And in that process, we understand that people are people and they are human and they are not God. And so they will disappoint us. They will sometimes hurt us. And so we don't, we love them, but we don't ask them to hold our heart. We ask God to hold our heart while we carry on a healthy, open relationship with them.
00:20:57
Speaker
And it's just such a better setup that way. Yeah. I have thought so much over the last year, year and a half in particular, just about the cross. And we've talked about Unreal Like Faith before, some of the different stages, if you will, of the spiritual life, of spiritual growth, and that journey inward that usually happens when somebody hits what some call the dark night of the soul or the heart. You hit trials, suffering, and you journey inward and you experience healing.
00:21:27
Speaker
We're not meant to stay there and we're meant to then journey outward, but we start to love God and love others in a new, different, more profound way, more Christ-like way. And yeah, what you're saying is some people, they never make that transition, you know, and there are lots of people who cycle back to earlier stages of the Christian life. Or in worst case scenarios, they become bitter.
00:21:49
Speaker
and resentful like you're talking about, and yet what God wants for us in the heart is to have our hearts transformed. And I have thought so much about the life of Christ and the cross in particular, how even in His last moments, you know, Jesus is thinking of others, and He's making excuses for those that are crucifying Him. Father, forgive them. They have no idea what they're doing. And I just look at that example and think, I am so far from loving like Christ.
00:22:17
Speaker
And what a great picture, the greatest demonstration, of course, of God's love for us is the cross and have thought so much about that. If we don't begin to turn to others in our suffering, then we'll become absorbed with our own suffering. And like you said, that's a dangerous place to stay. What do you hope people will learn or know after reading the book? If there's one thing you could sort of boil it down to, somebody picks up your book, The Hard Good, what do you want somebody to walk away with?
00:22:46
Speaker
I want him to know that it doesn't end with hard. And I don't even just mean the book. The book doesn't end with hard, but also life. If you know Jesus, life doesn't end with hard. It ends with good.
00:23:01
Speaker
And that's why this book had to be called the hard good and not the good hard because it does not end with hard. It ends with good. And that's a promise.
Life's End with Goodness in Jesus
00:23:09
Speaker
That's not a bumper sticker. That's not a hope. That's not a whim. That is a promise of heaven. That is a promise of the word of God. And that's something that I think sometimes we forget. It does not end with hard. It ends with good if you know Jesus Christ.
00:23:23
Speaker
Amen. No, that's so good. I want to ask you one last question, and where can folks go to pick up a copy of The Hard Good and other places that you would point them to to follow you online or on social media? We're going to link to all of that in our show notes, but where should they go? They can go to lisawhittle.com. It's really, really all there. It's all the book stuff, free stuff, podcast stuff, speaking stuff, other book stuff. Yeah, we've got it all there.
00:23:50
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, again, we will link to the book along with your full bio in our show notes and congratulations again on the recent release of the book and just really appreciate your message and your faithfulness in your writing and in your speaking. And I know, I mean, who am I to tell you this, but I know that your dad would be incredibly proud.
00:24:10
Speaker
of what you are continuing to do and what a day it will be when you see Him. Again, and both of you will not only see each other, but you will look upon the face of Jesus together. I mean, we have such an incredible, beautiful future, don't we? Because of Christ crucified and resurrected. And so I appreciate you taking the time to be on Root Like Faith today. Thanks so much.
00:24:31
Speaker
Well, friend, we are so grateful that you joined us for this fabulous conversation with Lisa Whittle. Don't forget you can follow her on Instagram at Lisa Whittle. And her book is called The Hard Good, showing up for God to work in you when you want to shut down.
00:24:47
Speaker
If we haven't met yet, we want to get to know you. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Patrick W. Schwank and at Ruth Schwank or on Facebook. And don't forget everything that Pat and Lisa talked about today will be at rootlikefaith.com forward slash podcast.
00:25:03
Speaker
Again, we welcome you into our family here at Root Like Faith. We would love for you to leave us a review or rating. That is a tremendous help to us as we spread the word about Root Like Faith, and be sure to tag us on social media when you do that. We're so, so grateful for your help in getting the word out. All right, friend. Well, we will chat soon, and we hope you have the best week.