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The Stream Queen watches Je, Tu, Il, Elle (1974)
20 Plays3 years ago
In this episode of The Stream Queen, I’m joined by entrepreneur and filmmaker, Audrey Lecker to talk about Chantal Akerman’s impactful movie, Je, Tu, Il, Elle (I, You, He, She) from 1975 that explores relationships, queerness, and solitude. Trigger warning: some sensitive topics are explored in this podcast. This movie and director has influenced many filmmakers that we know today. Welcome to Season 2!
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Transcript
Introduction and Theme of the Season
00:00:00
Speaker
to all the ladies I am big it's the pictures that got small
00:00:14
Speaker
All this way for my advice, I feel like Oprah. Person your seat belts. It's going to be a bumpy night. What the hell? I'm not going to worry about if people accept me or not. I'm going to pick Hollywood wherever I am at.
00:00:32
Speaker
As if! Hello everyone and welcome to the Stream Queen and may I say a Happy New Year to you. I hope you had a great holiday and all of the things and New Year celebrations and fireworks and drinks and cocktails.
Guest Introduction: Audrey Lecker
00:00:50
Speaker
Just glad to have you back here and I hope you enjoyed season once. Season two is gonna be filled with lots of great films. As always,
00:00:58
Speaker
The Stream Queen is about selecting films by female filmmakers, watching them and discussing them with my awesome friends. I'm your host, Tapia Leitodibo, and yeah, let's get started. So.
Origin of the Podcast Idea
00:01:12
Speaker
This episode, we are watching, or we did watch, a French film by a Belgian filmmaker, Chantal Ackerman. And I'm gonna probably screw this up because the whole film is, the film title is in French, but is Je tout il elle. Did I nail it? I think I did. I think so. And my special guest today, first of all, let me just tell you about a special guest.
00:01:36
Speaker
Audrey Lecker, everybody. This isn't just me clapping. Because without Audrey Lecker, the stream queen would not even exist. So let me tell you. It's true. It's true. So Audrey, one day we were talking about when is film fatale coming back, which was my in-person monthly film club that I had with friends coming up into my house and just watching films by female directors and just talking about it afterwards.
00:02:05
Speaker
And of course, it's pandemic, so we're just like meeting in person, not really a great idea right now. And I am terrible at Discord, so didn't want to do that. And Audrey was like, why don't you do a podcast? And I was like, podcast for professionals. That's not me, right? No, I don't do. I didn't do that. Anyway, then I
Film Focus: 'Je Tu Il Elle' by Chantal Ackerman
00:02:25
Speaker
thought about it. I thought about it for a little bit.
00:02:27
Speaker
And here we are season one was last year and we're here 2022 on season two and I just had to have my girl Audrey just show up because this would not have happened without you. You just you push that button it like marinated for a little bit and here we are it's like the whole thing. Yay I'm so happy.
00:02:48
Speaker
You needed a podcast. I know. People need to hear you. And Audrey, let me just tell you, is a queer filmmaker. And she's working on a lesbian rom-com. I'm really excited for whatever this is going to be. But I'm going to leave it to you, odds, to just
00:03:08
Speaker
share your thing, like wait, who are you? What are you? Where are you? Who am I? Super deep for the first day of the year. I haven't even set my resolutions yet. Who am I?
00:03:25
Speaker
That should be the first question on your list. Who are you? Yeah. Well, I think that's a question that we just have to like think about at all times, right? Like we're just constantly changing and growing and transforming.
Guest's Personal Journey and Career Shift
00:03:39
Speaker
So yeah, I am also in Austin.
00:03:44
Speaker
And apparently this is the place to be because everybody is building a studio here. Like a lot. And so are you. And so am I, but mine's in my garage. True, real talk from an entrepreneur herself. Here you go.
00:04:02
Speaker
Yeah, so while Universal and Netflix and Disney are all building full-on lots, my only asset is my house that I bought with corporate money. Not like illegally, like I had a corporate job. I really hope the mafia was involved in this somehow. The NBA mafia.
00:04:28
Speaker
But yeah, I started my career wanting to make like sci-fi channel TV shows. And I worked in LA for a number of years at a very low level. And then I was like, I hate this. And then I came back to Texas, got my MBA, because I was like, I just want to make money and have an easy life. And then... Who doesn't? I mean, spoiler alert, it's not an easier life.
00:04:58
Speaker
Oh, you youngins listen to Audrey. It's not all about the dollars, but it is also all about the dollars. I mean, the dollars were great. I don't know where they went because I no longer have them.
00:05:13
Speaker
So I was part of the hashtag great resignation where like during the pandemic I realized what am I doing with my life? I was having panic attacks every day with my like well-paying corporate job. Like I had made it like I was on the path like up the corporate ladder and everything. And I was like, I actually hate everything.
00:05:34
Speaker
about this. Cause it's all just like politics and like arguing for the right to do your job that you're already paid for.
Creative Freedom and the Great Resignation
00:05:43
Speaker
Like it's so annoying. So I finally quit this summer and was like,
00:05:50
Speaker
Uh, I'm clearly the one and I am going to have, you know, I'm like, I'm going to have investor. I have a vision and therefore investors are just gonna, the universe is just going to provide them tomorrow.
00:06:05
Speaker
And it's been since June and I don't have any yet, but I do have like a clearer vision now. It's taken me that long honestly to recover and I'm still not fully recovered from the extreme burnout of that kind of corporate stressful life. It's like a specific kind of like mental burnout. Yeah, it takes like all your creativity and stuff. So I've had to completely
00:06:30
Speaker
I don't mean to get into therapy hour here. And it's free. You're welcome. Thanks. But I will say, especially for all the youngins out there who are creative, this is why I can't go back to full-time corporate, is I realize that I value my
00:06:48
Speaker
own creative brain and what would you call it like creative energy so like and it was all sapped like I there was no way for me to do the stuff I want to do on the side while also working that full-time job I just couldn't do it because everything was gone by the time 5 p.m. rolled around yeah so yeah yeah
00:07:11
Speaker
don't believe those people who are like, well, I just gave up my job and I just like that. I just became a filmmaker because it does take work. Sorry, I have my whole like Betty White voice on. But yeah, investors, if you are listening, Netflix, Amazon, whatever, if you want to invest in the little indie studio in Austin,
00:07:32
Speaker
It's gonna be big. It's gonna be big. Maybe like a few square feet, but it's gonna have personality. Yeah, the ideas are big. The ideas are bigger than the square footage. Absolutely. And I know they want in on this queer stuff. They do. They do. Well, I'm just glad that I finally got you on my podcast. It was always on my mind to have you in one of these episodes. And I'm glad I got to do it. Mostly because when I kind of read the
00:08:02
Speaker
like plot of this movie. I was like, okay, an aimless young woman is gone. She's been basically in isolation. She's going on this road trip that leads her to like this love affair encounter with some truck driver and then eventually to her former girlfriend.
Film's Themes and Pandemic Resonance
00:08:25
Speaker
And I was just like, if this isn't like 2020 vibes, like I don't even, like what are we even doing? And then I watched it and I saw the director who cast herself, she's like the main actress in this. And I was like,
00:08:41
Speaker
I turned to my husband, I was like, does this look like Audrey? I was like complete accident with the long dark hair and blue eyes. I was like, this was not on purpose. But I feel like it just it's almost like I was able to just bring these two worlds together. And it is a queer movie. And I'm just so glad that you're here. And this is why I picked it. So I just want to ask like straight up, like, how do you heard about this movie before?
00:09:05
Speaker
No, and I'd never heard of Chantal Ackerman either. I mean, I'm kind of new to the queer, oh my God, my dog. Can you hear him in the background? This is Riker, by the way, who's just throwing an absolute fit because he wants to be part of this podcast.
00:09:25
Speaker
He just like, that's just what he does. He like rolls around and like makes crazy noises just on his own. It's just gonna be seasoning for those podcasts. Yeah, just like a little salt bae for you. Yeah, so I'm actually really glad. So okay, I'm gonna be completely honest, like French new wave films and stuff. I know that this probably doesn't technically count as that, but
00:09:51
Speaker
I find them really boring. And that's totally cool. Yeah, I'm more of like a comedy adventure kind of like the lesbian rom com, you know, but so I will I like I wanted to watch it, especially because it was like a lesbian filmmaker.
00:10:10
Speaker
I was dreading it because I was like, oh my god, it's going to be so boring. But honestly, I was hooked. Oh, really? Yeah, from the first frame, the whole first third of the movie feels like a meditation in a way. When the truck driver came in, I was so uncomfortable. You and me both. I can't remember what the question was that you asked me. Well, you said it. You've never seen it before. And just for people who are not
00:10:38
Speaker
who are not fluent in French, Z2EL basically just means I, you, he, she. And it really just kind of lays out like, it's almost like it's breaking this film into four acts basically. And you get to see her, you get to see what she's interacting with and all the people she's interacting with.
00:10:58
Speaker
And, you know, Chantelle Ackerman, I was like looking into her. I think there was another film by her that I was going to watch, but it didn't fall under like the genre that you were talking about. But it's it's a she's a filmmaker that has really influenced a lot of modern day filmmakers. Right. Like the director of Meek Caught Off was like,
00:11:21
Speaker
I watched this before I made that movie. And I was thinking about me caught up. I was like, that actually tracks. I haven't seen that. That slow cinema, just letting things happen. That made complete sense. Greta Gerwig, apparently.
00:11:36
Speaker
um had a tribute to um one of her movies so like there's a scene in Lady Bird where like the mom is um on the sewing machine and um is actually reflected in one of the films that Chantelle Ackerman did where there's a woman on the sewing machine in the living room as well and so you can just see that there are
00:11:55
Speaker
female filmmakers who are like, they see this woman as basically the foundation of their love for movies, but also just like their inspiration for how they make movies. And it just became so important to me to talk about her. She's Jewish. She's Belgian. She's Jewish. She's Jewish. She was apparently born in Auschwitz.
00:12:18
Speaker
She born in Auschwitz? I believe so. I will check my facts, but I remember reading that. But she was born at the time where like...
00:12:27
Speaker
It was kind of like towards the end of all the nasty things in Germany. Anyway. But yeah, she has such a fascinating background. And then she obviously ended up in Paris. And Jean-Luc Godard is like one of her inspirations. And this was her first feature. So this panel was her first feature. And yeah, so I was so interested to hear
00:12:56
Speaker
Just what you thought of the movie, like overall, like what was your? I, you know, it tracks with me that you said it was her first feature because it kind of felt like that in terms of it felt the whole time I was like, it was weird. I was watching it through like two lenses, right? Where I was like, just watching the actual narrative.
00:13:20
Speaker
the film that she has. And then the other half of my brain was watching it as like, how did she do this? Like, was this literally just her apartment? Probably. Like, how did she afford like this? Like they had to, like, there's this one scene where they're in the truck and like, you can hear the film camera going. And I'm like, yes, this is the indie film of my dreams. But it's interesting that
00:13:50
Speaker
I mean, you couldn't make this same thing today and have it mean, like have the same weight, I feel like just because there's something about the difficulty of making it with film and her by herself, like in an apartment, filming herself, I guess. And like there's a scene where she's got all of her
00:14:12
Speaker
her letters, the letter that she's written all on the floor. You can see her kind of dip under the camera. She's just making it work, man. I will correct myself. I was thinking about her mother who survived Auschwitz, but she was born in Belgium. But again, it's like that heaviness to her
00:14:33
Speaker
to her history, to the legacy that comes with her. And to have her be this like, powerful queer feminist filmmaker, it was just like, okay, I wonder if that's why because it's like, if
00:14:48
Speaker
you come from so much darkness and death. And my dad's side is also Jewish. And so I try to do Ancestry.com, and all those people are dead. Yeah, exactly. And I'm not even as close to it as she is. But I can imagine, it's like, well, then why on earth would I live my life as a lie? Why on earth would I put on any sort of mask at all?
00:15:16
Speaker
this is all we got. So yeah, and I do love the strength in her character. It was so interesting. A little bit of it made me feel like
00:15:28
Speaker
the pandemic because she's locked in a room. And just, and this is why I think, okay, so I'm ADHD, so this is gonna go everywhere. And I love it. This, okay, so if we're just talking about like the first act or whatever, it's literally just her in a room. And the very first like couple of minutes are, you know, at first she
00:15:52
Speaker
um you know has like all her stuff in her room and she like paints it all one color then the next day she paints it all a different color then the next day she takes everything out of the room and that's kind of how i've been feeling lately where i'm like i have like too much stuff and it it's all a distraction from
00:16:09
Speaker
what she's trying to do is like go within and kind of understand what's happening to her what's going on like what's what do I actually think like I thought it was really interesting that she was she wrote a letter that took like eight pages to write and then she went through and cut and it was just a couple lines yeah and that's kind of how I feel like she wrote this film as well because it is very limited narration and every word has
00:16:36
Speaker
I think a very important meaning. And I wish I spoke French because I feel like we're missing something in the translation. We probably are. Yeah. And like, you know, with subtitles, you think you at least you hope that you're getting the full weight of everything. But as we know, like with some of the stuff that's come out with like Netflix or Amazon did sometimes what is being said.
00:16:54
Speaker
And what the translations are can be, there's like just a little bit of nuance that we miss. And so I imagine that if you were French or understood French or grew up in the French culture, that it would hit different for you. I feel like there's probably more wordplay as well. Yeah.
00:17:15
Speaker
Absolutely. But that isolation was something that I thought was really important to address because it felt like the last two years, like if you were single in the pandemic, this was probably, she's just waving. She's like, hello, here, me. This is a movie for you because you'll feel very seen. It was almost like I could see her and I could see me slowly going crazy.
00:17:41
Speaker
And that the way she filmed it, there aren't super fast cuts. It's literally a stationary camera and her coming in and out of frame. And it just it just lingers, right? It's just holding on to the moment. And, you know, for some people, it might seem slow, might seem boring, but
00:18:01
Speaker
Like I was going crazy. I was like, what is going to happen next? Yeah, because it just felt like the Inuit was so heavy. It was so dense.
Isolation as a Metaphor for Growth
00:18:10
Speaker
Like I felt bored like her. I felt frustrated like her. Like to the point where she's like.
00:18:16
Speaker
She was moving the bed, and I already moved the bed in my head. I was like, well, I'm just going to put it up here. Like, what are we doing in this room? And I think that she was trying to make us feel what she was feeling in that isolation. And I felt that. And I think someone who had to be stuck either in their tiny little apartment, because let's be clear, that was like a room. There was nothing else. It was a small room. It was a small room. I could just see someone just slowly just being like, I need to get out.
00:18:45
Speaker
I need human contact. But she doesn't need it, though. It's interesting that you were feeling, it sounds like you were feeling kind of stressed out with it. And I felt relaxed. You did? Yeah, I'm serious. It felt like a meditation where it's like she's slowly removing. In fact, I thought she was just going to completely get rid of the mattress. And at one point, she kind of does. She falls asleep on the floor multiple times.
00:19:12
Speaker
takes the frame out and just strips it down to the bare minimal. Exactly. And I feel like that was
00:19:19
Speaker
her trying to get all of the distractions out and like, cause I've definitely felt this way. I've gotten rid of so much stuff because obviously like stuff just keeps multiplying into other stuff. I don't understand probably where all my corporate money went. But during the pandemic, especially I was like, I'm stuck in this house and I just started like painting things, like painting my fireplace and then like, like I painted my dining room and then I hated the color print I painted again.
00:19:48
Speaker
So you and Chantal were on the same page. Yeah. And with her, especially, there's a moment where she just starts focusing. So she doesn't even start writing a letter, right? All of this is preparation for, because in the first scene where she still has all of her stuff.
00:20:06
Speaker
She is trying to write, but she can't think of what to write. And she can't think because there's like too much else around. And I feel like that's also kind of a sign of like a cluttered brain as well. A cluttered mind, yeah. So you can't focus on what you actually are trying to focus on because there's like too much other stuff that you got to take care of, whatever.
00:20:27
Speaker
So she starts just taking things away and taking things away until it's just the bare minimum of what she needs so that she can. And then it's like day seven or something when she finally actually starts writing. Writing, yeah. She hasn't even left her house yet. She's just been sitting and thinking. That's basically just meditation. She was just removing everything from her mind until
00:20:51
Speaker
I would be so interested to hear, and y'all can just drop this in Instagram comments when I post this finally, but for different people who were single and lived alone, when watching this movie, I feel like everyone's going to take something different from it, right? Some people are going to be like, this loneliness is driving me crazy. And other people are like, this is a meditation. This is a time for me to strip down and remove all the things that are not important, that are not useful.
00:21:19
Speaker
and really just figure out who I am. And I'm just gonna be so interested to hear people's perspective of like, what was isolation for you? Like, what did that do for you? Was it something that you tried to run away from? Was it something that you leaned into? I think that's one of those things, it's like this movie, obviously there's a way that she presents it, but there's also what like each individual who watches is gonna take away from it, right?
00:21:47
Speaker
Yeah, and I can go first on the answer. At first, so I'm introverted, right? And I was living my best life during quarantine. I saw all your dance videos, so yes.
00:22:04
Speaker
You and my parents, yeah, they hated it. And that's, I mean, that's when I kind of discovered, cause it's like, I couldn't go anywhere literally. And I didn't have FOMO because nobody was going anywhere. And it was just me. And at the time I only had Ripley, so just me and the one dog and like a lot of weed.
00:22:32
Speaker
And I can't smoke it now because I smoked so much of it. But it felt like chunk of time. What'd you say? You lost the chunk of time. I did. It's like that year didn't happen. No, I mean, it did though. It was a really important year for me because I came out to my like, I made that realization of coming out to myself. Nice.
00:22:56
Speaker
And a lot of women did actually. So when I started joining like online queer communities, they're calling it hashtag queer and teen because so many women, especially women, and because of just like TikTok lesbians, they're like, oh, oh, oh. But like, you finally have time to think and to assess. And like, that's kind of what happened was like, I started
00:23:20
Speaker
kind of assessing my whole romantic dating life. I'm like, why don't I want to date these, like I have good taste in men, but like I don't want to be with any of them. And it was like light bulb moment. Yeah, exactly. And like, I don't know that I ever would have discovered that if I'd still been on the same grind where like you just don't have time to think. And then that's on this routine.
00:23:45
Speaker
Yeah, and then through that same thing is when I started discovering like, I don't want to do corporate life. I do want to make my own stuff. I am a creative person. And it took me that whole year. Like that's when I started developing kind of the vision for where where I want to take my studio. And without that year of just complete isolation. And I did get into meditation and yoga and stuff. But like,
00:24:10
Speaker
I mean, the whole life was like a meditation because you're not talking to anybody. And you're just like, I would take walks with my dog, just like get out of the house. Thank God I had a dog. And so it's like, without that year of isolation and like removing all of these distractions, I never would have
00:24:30
Speaker
come to this discovery of who I am today, if that makes sense. So maybe that's why I saw it that way. Yeah, you definitely. I could see that in that movie because again, it was only when she wanted to and felt ready that she leave that house. And if I remember, it was like three days later? No, it was a month later. At least a month later. Because she goes through all of winter.
00:24:53
Speaker
Yeah, she does. So it's probably more than a month. But there was definitely a lengthy isolation. And you did feel like when she left, it was because she wanted to leave, not because she was so isolated that she was like, I got to leave. There's definitely those two very distinct feelings. And also, I mean, it does feel like sometimes single life is rearranging furniture until you meet somebody
00:25:22
Speaker
And then you don't have to rearrange furniture anymore. There was definitely a large part of me that was like, I just want a room with nothing but a mattress and paper to write on. There's something very... Where's that going to take me? I know.
00:25:37
Speaker
because she's just writing on there. I do want to talk about, oh so do we need to like talk about the whole plot or like be more specific or are we just like kind of... Well yeah I mean like what do you do so I mean the plot is there even a plot I guess is my question because like
00:25:53
Speaker
It just felt, it didn't feel like a plot in the regular sense of the word. It felt like a journey. If you've ever seen like Cleo five to seven, where it's a day in the life of a person.
00:26:10
Speaker
So the reason really just following this person as they go through, whatever it is they're going through, like in Clio 5 to 7, you know, she was waiting for a diagnosis, like she, you know, whatever it was going to be. And it was in between that period, I think she had to come back at seven or whatever, but she had two hours to kill. And it was like those two hours, you just see what's happening to this person as she's kind of thinking about what could happen, what the diagnosis could be, and then her life.
00:26:39
Speaker
And there's some films that are like that where it's almost, it's not even a narrative. It's almost kind of just, it feels more like a documentary of what's going on in this person's life. So plot wise, I didn't necessarily feel like there was one, but I'm curious to hear like, did you feel there was a plot?
00:27:00
Speaker
Yeah, well, and now that you say kind of the word documentary, it does feel like that because she is narrating it as herself. Like, and then I did this, she starts the film by saying, and then I left. Yes. And I think that it's just a constant circle where, because she, she does nothing, she writes letter, she's like coming to, she's depressed, but then also kind of like comes out of it and is like realizing things about herself.
00:27:25
Speaker
that we just assume she is. That's what I'm reading into it. And then finally, I want to talk about the sugar in a second. That's a level of like depression that I have never ever been at. But when you're eating sugar out of a bag on the floor?
00:27:43
Speaker
I don't even know that I would call it depression. I was like, okay. It's a mood. 100% a mood. The three acts, if you will, won her alone. She is even narrating, and then I wrote a letter to you, blah, blah, blah, I'm talking to you. I kept waiting for you to show up and maybe bring me some winter socks, but then you didn't. Then she is ready to leave. She's just like,
00:28:13
Speaker
I want to talk about that scene of her hitchhiking, where it's clearly just her on the morning. She set up a camera, went down onto the highway during the morning commute. And so she's not really hitchhiking because she doesn't want anybody to fall over. So she keeps having her thumb out and then hiding it. Yeah. And by the way, this is 1975. He's not safe in 1975. No. It's never been safe.
00:28:40
Speaker
And clearly it wasn't safe because eventually we're going to talk about this truck driver guy. Um, so she gets picked up by him and then we spend quite a long time with him. And the way that she talks about, I thought maybe I want to kiss him. I'm like, yeah, that sounds like compulsory heterosexuality where you're like, maybe.
00:29:02
Speaker
But actually, no. And then finally, she leaves him or like, I guess he drops her off or whatever. And she goes to this young woman's house. And it's clearly her ex-girlfriend or like they have some sort of like history. Yeah, they've got history. And then she mentions multiple times that the girl says, I don't want you to stay the night or like, I don't want you to stay. And so she doesn't.
Narrative Structure and Cycles in the Film
00:29:29
Speaker
And then she leaves like the end is her leaving.
00:29:31
Speaker
Yeah, but remember the first words of the film where and so I left. Yeah. So like, I think she just kind of keeps going back around. And the way that I kind of interpreted that was and again, I don't remember what your question was.
00:29:47
Speaker
This is all part of it. The way that I was interpreting it is because there is a lot of confusion and drama and maybe internalized shame around homosexual relationships. The way I was interpreting this was maybe
00:30:06
Speaker
It's like they obviously have this connection. They obviously feel attracted towards each other. They obviously love each other. But there is something that is keeping the one from the apartment, her or she or whatever the title is, from letting this just be like official, like having them stay. And so it becomes this like, so they have like a beautiful night and then
00:30:33
Speaker
main character leaves again and then is like you know having depression on me and like writing a letter and like trying to figure out what's happening to her and like what her feelings are and then like trying again with like some other truck driver and then going back and then like but I don't want you to stay because this can't this can't be you know yeah I also do wonder if it's
00:30:58
Speaker
also just this person who doesn't necessarily know what she wants, because at first she wants to be alone, right? And she spends a long time alone. And then, and then she's like, Okay, well, no, I need I want to write this letter. And she does that because she's trying to connect to whoever she's writing a letter to. And then she's like, No, I'm gonna leave, right? And then she she has this moment, it's like she has these moments where she's
00:31:24
Speaker
trying to connect or wants to connect but at the end she always leaves and I don't know that she leaves.
00:31:32
Speaker
I don't know that if it's like force per se or just something in her is just like, I'm okay. Like I don't, I don't need this now. Like it's run its course for me. Um, whereas like, you know, I felt like the truck driver would have continued wanting to spend time with her because he talks about this other young girl that he picked up back in the day, which I was like, that's weird that you saying that to this person that you just met. So creepy.
00:31:57
Speaker
He was very creepy, but not to disparage truck drivers out there, but there is a time. This one. I felt so much tension. And at first, I was like, maybe I'm just being distrustful of men. But I'm like, something's going to be special. I think there is a level of that for women. First of all, hitchhiking, freaked out by it. And two, being in this truck alone with this guy where you don't know
00:32:24
Speaker
Is he going to be nice? Is he going to be platonic? Is he going to try to make moves on you? Is he going to force moves on you? And I think that's just the natural fear that society has created for us women, whether we are single, whether we are married, whether we're queer. It doesn't really matter, right? These thoughts, it's like walking down the street in the dark. A guy can just walk down the street from A to B and never once look left, look right, look behind you, or put your hand in your pocket.
00:32:53
Speaker
For the women, it's a completely different experience. We're so alert. And I think that maybe we kind of projected that into the movie when we were watching it, because that is our lived experience. And maybe she does have those, but she also felt very comfortable. I didn't feel any fear from her, but I could have been missing something.
00:33:15
Speaker
Do we want to talk about the truck driver now? Yeah, let's talk about the truck driver. So the first thing he says to her, and this is what like, I was just like, red flag, even though it's probably not. You're just waving this red flag. I know. Red flag!
00:33:39
Speaker
So he tells her, and at first I'm like, so I literally had to like talk myself off the ledge. I was like, he's probably just being really nice. Cause he was like, yeah, the first thing he says is you look tired, go like lay down. And he doesn't say that she narrates it. Um, that she's like, this is what he said to me. He said to like lay down in the back cause he's got like a little truck bed back there.
00:33:57
Speaker
And I was like, oh, she's going to wake up with his hand down her back. Yeah, I know. I thought the same thing. I was so freaked out for her. I was like, girl, get out of that truck. I know. And then nothing happened. And then for a long time, nothing happens. And it's perfectly platonic. They're not even talking. Yeah. And then they go out to eat. Yeah. And they watch that, oh my gosh, this scene where they're just sitting and watching some American mafia film. Yeah. And it's the first.
00:34:27
Speaker
loud sounds that you've heard since the, like, because everything has been so quiet, you know, and then all of a sudden it's like society again, you know, and so she's just like eating, she's hungry, all she's had for a month is just sugar, I guess, which I feel like isn't possible. No, I feel like you would be sick or backed up somehow, like I don't know how you eat sugar for a month.
00:34:57
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we could talk about that in a second. I have some experience with that. I'm eating sugar for a month. Not just sugar, but okay, I'll talk about it now. So again, I have ADHD. So sometimes you just get hyper focused on something that's like giving you dopamine, right? And
00:35:17
Speaker
some of my favorite memories growing up were summer vacation, I would go to the library and get a huge stack of books and then I would just read them. Like that was my summer, like I would just be reading, like fully absorbed in these books. And what I would do, this is like a very specific addiction. I specifically remember reading this book called farewell to Manzanar, like multiple times too. I think I had to read it for school, but then I also just like,
00:35:46
Speaker
liked it. And I think it's actually based on a true account of this woman's life growing up. It was like the the Chinese American people were forced into those internment camps during World War Two in America. This is like a big thing that happened that they just like don't teach you. Yeah, they don't want to talk about it. Yeah. So it's a book about her experiences and I it was that and then like the Red Wall series. This must have been the same summer and I would eat
00:36:13
Speaker
At first I would sneak downstairs during breaks to get a scoop of Gatorade powder and eat it. And then I remember while reading Farewell to Manzanar I was so absorbed that I just took the whole canister upstairs and then I would just be eating it by the spoonful.
00:36:32
Speaker
Okay, so what was that for you? Like, why was it doing for you? It was something where like, because I was so hyper focused on reading, I did not want to take a break to like,
00:36:46
Speaker
like have to deal with like a whole meal or something. But I was like, there's also something about the taste, the sweet taste and like the texture of it. And then it became like this little like routine where it was like a constant constant like little ritual that was going
00:37:03
Speaker
And so I would just be like, yum, yum, yum, as I'm like reading. So it was almost like you weren't paying attention. It was almost like an unconscious thing, just kind of going as you did the thing that you were hyper focused on. Exactly. Yeah. So that's kind of how I interpreted her sugar eating. Because there's a scene even where she's like writing and then every so often we'll take a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down.
00:37:28
Speaker
And then and there's this one particular scene where she's like doing that and then like in between like taking a break and then she just started oh shit I'm hungry like just eating it like shoving it into her mouth. Yeah and I think the scene maybe where I thought that there was a level of sadness was when she was like on the bed and she was just slowly she wasn't doing anything she's just slowly taking this
00:37:52
Speaker
bag of sugar, putting the spoon in and putting it in her mouth. And at some point, the bag just falls or she accidentally knocks it over. And then she just scoops it back in the bag. And maybe it's because, again, this is one of those things. The film almost is like a blank canvas. And I feel like maybe some people will watch it and put their emotions on it. But I have been that sad before, where it's just like, I can't do anything. I can't get up.
00:38:20
Speaker
I just, I'm barely loving, right? And I just saw that in that moment, like in the one where she was like writing, it was more kind of like, okay, I'm really in this and I don't want to get up and like go and cook or add anything, but also maybe I'm just poor. And which is, it's really hard to be poor in France, but like,
00:38:44
Speaker
because of the social security net or whatever. But it also can be really, really bad. And so it was just kind of like, why are you sitting here eating sugar? Like, are you OK?
00:38:57
Speaker
Who hurt you? Are you okay? You know, like, and so I love that you have like a completely different take on it. And I have a completely different take on it, but I mean, I do, I don't want to take away from like, I do think that there is depression and sadness involved because I think she wants to be with this with her girlfriend or ex girlfriend or whatever eventually gets through though. Yeah, but then she leaves again to start it all over.
00:39:23
Speaker
I just, yeah, it's a question mark that I think a lot of people will continuously ask, what does that mean? Does that mean I'm leaving because reluctantly? Does that mean I'm leaving because I went back to my ex, my ex ain't shit, right? Or like, what is it? Like, why leave?
00:39:41
Speaker
when you clearly were allowed to stay, or is she... She wasn't allowed to stay. Well, no, because at the beginning she was like, you can't stay the night, or you can't stay. And then she was like, well, you can stay, we have to leave tomorrow. And so I was like, she just was like, okay, you want me to leave tomorrow? I'm leaving tomorrow. Kind of like, this was our agreement. It was one of those things where I was like, I don't know what the answer is, because it almost felt like
00:40:08
Speaker
you don't really see her expression when she leaves, you just see her leave. Right. I kind of interpreted that as like, if she were, you know, because the scene, and I don't want to forget about the truck driver. And in fact, maybe we should go back to him because it is such a contrast. Let's reverse, put this in reverse, and go back to the truck driver. Yes. So she leaves, because I think it's important to contrast what she has with this girlfriend.
00:40:38
Speaker
to what's going on with him because we think it's going to be platonic, although I kept feeling I'm like, he's going to ask for something at some point. And then I was right.
00:40:53
Speaker
really uncomfortable. And it's supposed to be. But I do appreciate the way that she did it. This was I think with the scene where you could hear it was so tight in the check cab, that you could hear like the actual film going in the camera. And it's just focused on him. So you don't see her at all. And he takes her hand and puts it down his pants. And he starts it by saying,
00:41:18
Speaker
this is the only thing that matters. And this is, I think the first thing that he's ever actually said as a line. And, you know, so like, obviously we, I think we all can assume what happens. And then, and he's talking the whole time, and talking about like, I don't know, basically, all of his lines are about how important dicks are.
00:41:46
Speaker
And he's even, he even says like, you look scared. And, and so I think that's important to note because later when she has her night with her girlfriend, like she's not scared. Not at all. And he and then like, after this, it prompts this whole
00:42:09
Speaker
I was going to call it a discussion. It's a monologue. It's just about his obsession with his own dick, basically, which I'm slightly summarizing. But he's talking about the story of his life and clearly the contempt that he has for his wife. And he doesn't even care about his kids except for the
00:42:30
Speaker
fact that he has disturbing sexual thoughts about his daughter, who's only 11 years old. Yeah. And then like, about the women that he also picks up on the road. And he's just talking about it all like, very casual, like, yeah, it was disturbing when he I literally gasped out loud when he talked about his daughter. I was like, fuck, he was very gross. And um, and you know, it's weird, because it's like, okay, this is 1975. But ain't shit changed?
00:42:59
Speaker
Like it's just the fact that you can you can say those words. Oh, you look afraid and your brain isn't like maybe I should like scale back. Right. Like maybe I should make you feel comfortable instead of kind of just following through. It's like just ignoring her feeling. I think that that was the the camera angle was purposeful because it was saying it's all about him. Not because I'm making it all about him, but he's making it all about him. Yes.
00:43:25
Speaker
It's like his gaze, his perspective, his everything. Even the way he started it. Even the way he started it. Because he decided when to talk and when to interact with her. Because in the first act, it's all about her, her perspective, what she sees, what she feels. And it almost cuts her out completely, even to the point where you're eating. Literally. And she is pressed up against the wall eating. Oh, I didn't notice that.
00:43:52
Speaker
Yeah, and he's on the outside, so she's like trapped, basically. And she looks smaller than him. And again, it's that whole like, being in the presence of this guy, maybe he represents something in society.
00:44:09
Speaker
Really is just making her small making her insignificant making her again another notch on his story about all of the young women that he's picked up and all of the young women or just general women in his life and his contempt and Like you said like there is night and day between her experience with him and her experience with her ex. Yeah Yeah, and
00:44:35
Speaker
I just think it was interesting how, and we should probably put a trigger warning, actually. 100% trigger warning. But to contrast, where he's made it all about him, he's made his whole life about his sexual pleasure, about his dick, you know? Because he even talks about when he's on the road, he's like, sometimes I just start thinking about stuff and my dick gets hard.
00:45:02
Speaker
Except in a French way, so it sounds a little bit romantic, but I'm like, nah, it's not. And it's all about him. And I will say that he starts a sexual interaction by just taking her hand and doing it.
00:45:18
Speaker
Which, by the way, if any of you guys are watching, don't let me do that. In case you thought that that was romantic, from two women, let us tell you it is not. No. Keep your hands to yourself, thank you. Yes, consent please. Content please.
00:45:38
Speaker
It's interesting because in a way, there's a little bit of similarity between her and him and the way that she starts a sexual interaction with her ex-girlfriend. But they're constantly making eye contact.
00:45:54
Speaker
Cause she, so the, she, so they're sitting at the dinner table cause she's, she's literally saying I'm hungry. This scene is so, I want to hear your thoughts on this scene. Cause she goes, I'm hungry. And so the other girl just like goes and grabs like a thing of like bread and Nutella and butter and just starts no plates.
00:46:13
Speaker
No plates to be seen. I love me some bread and butter and Nutella. It is delicious. I wanted some. I wanted some too. I was very impressed that she put branding in there. Yeah, well, probably. Yeah, I love that she got away with it. Yeah. I was surprised that Nutella's been around that long, but... Oh yeah, for forever.
00:46:31
Speaker
But I'm just I'm still focused on like they didn't have any plates, but so she's doing it on the tablecloth. Yeah, just like slapping it on there and then like make so she ends up with this huge stack of like little Nutella sandwiches and shoves them over to our girl who starts eating them. But then she like shoves it over to the other girl and then she stops eating and she just kind of reaches over
00:46:56
Speaker
starts unbuttoning this girl's blouse. Yeah. Our girl doing, because they don't have names, so I'm just going to call her Chantal. Chantal and her, because we'll just call her Elle. Yeah, we'll just call her Elle's name. Yeah. So she reaches over to Elle and starts slowly unbuttoning her blouse, and Elle is just kind of gently shaking her head no.
00:47:20
Speaker
the whole time, but with a little smile on her face. And I'm like, in today's day and age, I feel like, cause I was like, this isn't consensual. Did you say no? But it's almost like, I guess like a game with them because their whole interaction, their sexual interaction is very playful. It's very almost innocent in a way and like joyful.
00:47:45
Speaker
like they're literally wrestling naked on a bed like literally wrestling like nothing. That sex scene was 100% not for the male gaze and I'm here for it. Yeah. Because that was some play fight sex scene and I was like,
00:48:01
Speaker
I have never seen this before. And I was thinking back, so I'll just do my whole jump ahead. Yeah. Because I was thinking about blue is the warmest color, if you've ever seen that film. I've not seen it. OK. Because they have about the same amount, the same length of sex scenes. Because one of the things that you'll hear about blue is the warmest color. There's literally a 10-minute
00:48:23
Speaker
lesbian sex scene. It goes on forever. And this one also, I remember timing it, it was like 11 minutes. Was it really 11? It felt, it was really long. It was really long. And I was like thinking, I was like, what is the difference between this two? And this one, the one with Chantal is from a women's perspective. And the one by
00:48:44
Speaker
I'm going to forget his name. Oh, come to me. But blue's the woman's color is from a male perspective. And you could just tell with blue, it was like, OK, this is something that I expect to see when I go to Pornhub.
00:48:58
Speaker
Right. Basically. Whereas the other one, it felt like maybe, you know, when you experiment with a girl when you're younger and you're, and then it kind of builds up into an actual thing, like, oh, we're just playing naked. And then suddenly we're like kissing and then suddenly it's more. And then because it does eventually evolve into more sensual, more, more kind of body appreciation, just
00:49:28
Speaker
like a worship. Yeah. You know, like, and it went from just being kind of teenage girly to like very mature in that 11 minutes in. And I've always talked about this whenever we watch lesbian scenes, like I can always tell when it's filmed by a man. Yeah.
00:49:48
Speaker
because y'all don't know how we do this. How we do this, okay? We're not doing it for you. And that's what I loved about this was did, you know, I can see a guy being like, what in the world is going on? Like, this makes no sense. But I would be very interested
00:50:08
Speaker
lesbians, again, come into my DMs, comment on my Instagram. Come into my DMs, please. Yes, I'm married. Go to all your DMs. Only professional DMs from lesbians, please. Thank you. Just to be very fascinated to hear from their perspective, what did you think about this sex scene?
00:50:31
Speaker
For me, and again, I'm a baby gay, so I love that. Really, it's interesting, especially that you mentioned the male gays.
00:50:45
Speaker
basically to be completely vulnerable. Like most of my own knowledge of like quote unquote lesbian sex is from like Pornhub, which is made by men for men, even though it features women. And so I was actually confused at the start of the sex scene because I had an expectation of what was quote unquote supposed to happen or like that they were supposed to be getting each other off, but they
00:51:09
Speaker
don't for a very long time. For a very long time. Very long time. Not even kissing. They are literally rolling around, embracing each other. Rubbing. And so while at first I was like, oh, this isn't what I expected. And then I loved it because I was like, it literally looked like they were trying to merge themselves into each other. They were holding on so tight that it actually was so sweet and romantic where it's like, they are trying to climb inside of each other.
00:51:37
Speaker
right in like a romantic way. Yeah, it wasn't about like the the clitoris game or like, yeah, being during like the things that you would see on porn. Okay, this is now an R rated podcast. Yeah.
00:51:51
Speaker
Um, please do not play this for your children. Right. This is not the one. He's just like, not for kids. Um, but yeah, it's just, yeah.
Cultural and Gender Influences in Filmmaking
00:52:02
Speaker
Yeah. I had the same thing too, because, you know, when, you know, I had like a whole month where we watched like a bunch of like queer movies, um, for pride month and I would like finish watching what it was like a Mennonite or whatever, or Ammonite, whatever it's called. Oh, that's supposed to, I need to see that.
00:52:20
Speaker
that one with Kate Winslet and then there's the the world. The world's end or something? Or the world becoming. The world to come. The world to come or whatever. And it was like we're watching these sex scenes and then and you know they're taking place in just like pre-modern America and it's like the first thing they do is like go for the clip. And then
00:53:03
Speaker
doing that. There's just so much sensation that happens. And I feel like this really nailed it. There's the touching, the absorbing of the smell. All of the senses was going on before they even got to that point. But yeah, you really can tell.
00:53:09
Speaker
Right. That's not what happened. Right.
00:53:22
Speaker
when it's like, this is a guy that made this and this is a woman. Right. I find that so interesting. And I feel like that's why I really loved this as well. I was like, Oh, like sex isn't just about penetration or like somebody's dick.
00:53:40
Speaker
Exactly. And that was the contrast as well. Because he literally starts that interaction by saying, this is the only thing that matters. And then it's directly contrasted with this, where it's like, no, this is a merging of two souls, basically.
00:53:56
Speaker
And then also like when it does get into the more mature side of it, it is a very like they're making direct eye contact while they don't say, yeah, yes, you know, like, yeah, like we would today it is like, I would say implied consent in terms of like the way that like,
00:54:16
Speaker
L is slowly, you know, going for like the, like they're looking at each other and it was like a very sensual, like sweet moment as well. And they're both empowered here, right? Like, because L does make the moves, like, and Chantal does make the moves, it's not, the power dynamic isn't shifted to one. And like going back to what you said, like when she's like sitting at the table,
00:54:40
Speaker
And she's unbuttoning her shirt, and then she's like touching her boobs, and then, you know, Al says no. It's, I think to me, the way I interpreted that is they have history together, right? And it's one of those things when your ex slides back in your DM, and he's like, hey, it's been, or she's like, hey, it's been like two years. What's up? What you doing tonight? And there is an instinct to create boundaries, but ex-sex,
00:55:09
Speaker
There is something about it, OK? I will admit, sometimes you say no, but you mean yes. And it's in your eyes. And so I think for me, when I was watching that, it was kind of like, Elle really does not want to start this situation again, where she falls back into this pattern with her. But she still has feelings for her. There's something there. There's a history there.
00:55:35
Speaker
And as much as she's like, no, she's like, yes. And that's why I felt like it was very different, because she smacked her hand over and just pulled away. I think there would have been a completely different situation. But she leaned into it, and then it was cut to it. I remember seeing a review of this, and it was like the most audacious sex scene. What? Well, because it's 1975, right? Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:56:05
Speaker
Who is doing this? Who is doing lesbian sex scenes for like 11 minutes in 1975? Nobody. But Chantel Ackerman says, hold my beer. Right. Let me show you how it's done.
00:56:18
Speaker
She's a stationary camera and just two women having at it. Yeah. Just wrestling. Literally just rolling around on a bed. Yes. Rolling around the bed. It's sweaty skin, it's slapping skin. Yeah. And similar to you, I was like, wait, this is not how I saw it in the thing. And then I was like, wait, no, no, no. This is we're in a new educational format here. Yeah. It's like, no, this is actually like,
00:56:47
Speaker
women. Like this is for women, you know. And something about like the, I want to go back to Elle and how she was like kind of shaking her head no, but with a smile also like the way. So at first I was like, Oh, she's saying no, you need to back off. Like that was my instinct. But then it's like,
00:57:06
Speaker
It's almost like a, no, you're being naughty again. And I kind of, cause I keep coming back to like, I wonder if maybe, and I'll have to see what Chantal Ackerman kind of says about it maybe and like her, you know, what she was trying to do. But like from my point of view, it's like bringing it back to like, no, no, no, like we're not supposed to be doing this, but they just can't.
00:57:31
Speaker
help themselves. And, and then I was closely watching for like once they were on the bed wrestling, like I keep calling it wrestling. So like, no, they're like wrestling. It is like, it's not mommy and daddy are wrestling, like, but actually having sex. No, they're, they're playfully wrestling. And I was making sure to watch because like, I was like, is this, you know, is there a power dynamic to play? And no, it was they were both equals. And L was just as into it as, as Chantal was.
00:58:02
Speaker
And that's when I was relaxed. And so side note, I love all the hairy bits that I saw. Yes, I loved that. All the lumps, the bumps, the hairy bits. I was like, yes, women's bodies. And it was like, these aren't model's bodies. There was lumps. There was tiny breasts. And I was just like, thank you.
00:58:22
Speaker
for like full hair everywhere putting women's bodies up front and you know i know that this is a conversation it's not a new conversation right but i'm also thinking in 1975 like maybe wasn't really a conversation and that's why it was so audacious that's why it was like dude like maybe that's why people because i know that
00:58:44
Speaker
I feel like it was an American thing that like, oh, French women are hairy. And it's like, yeah, because bodies are hairy. And at first I was actually surprised to see her armpit hair. Isn't that crazy?
00:58:59
Speaker
And then later I was like, well, like I just didn't even notice it. But it's so sad that I'm like, what a surprise. But I do like going back to like women's bodies and stuff. I mean, it's just still very beautiful. Very beautiful.
00:59:15
Speaker
And young and fit, I actually was shocked at how great her legs were when I'm like, you're French and eating sugar for a month. Yeah. But also, I'm just like, how do you get your legs? Because I got some thick legs. She walks a lot, and she's got a hike. She's got a thicker arm out to get a car ride to wherever she was going. I mean, there's a lot of walking in France. That is true. Yeah.
00:59:42
Speaker
Yeah, because I'm like, I can't get those legs without a lot of squats. Or a lot of wrestling. I mean, the wrestling's got to do something. But there is a scene at the beginning, before she leaves, she stares at herself naked and she stares at her reflection in the window naked.
00:59:59
Speaker
for a long time. And it's like, it's almost like, oh, she's like accepting her body and who she is. And now she feels like sensual, you know, enough to like go out into the world. Yeah, she definitely felt more sensual with Elle than she did with the truck driver. Oh, yeah, that wasn't about
01:00:17
Speaker
She just felt very erased. I barely saw her. She felt very erased from that scene. And I would like to think that's the point, of course, when she's not here to tell us that. But that was my takeaway from it. I was confused about the last scene that we see with her and the truck driver. He's shaving. And she's just kind of in the corner watching him. But she has this smile on her face.
01:00:43
Speaker
And because I would tell that story differently now, I'm like, yeah, he like sexually assaulted you in his truck, you know, but then she's like,
01:00:54
Speaker
it seems to be enjoying just like watching him shave. I was confused about what that was. I do wonder is that us maybe looking back from a modern lens after like me too and everything and our us growing up in a different like world because like I know they'd I mean I dated like
01:01:14
Speaker
French people, and the acceptance of men just being like, that is such a part of their society. I remember with talking to French girls and it's like, oh yeah, they cheat on their wives all the time. Some of them even have separate places where they meet their mistresses. It's just accepted. And there's a certain behavior that's just like, oh, it's just a guy. That's what guys do.
01:01:37
Speaker
And so I wonder if there is like a like a cultural aspect to this that we're like maybe missing and then also a time that we're missing like the era where that like even though we're seeing something that's very feminist at the end that there's still aspects of the society from that time period still existing that is hard for us to grasp because
01:02:01
Speaker
We've all done so much work to get here where we can just be like, uh-uh, that's not consent. That's wrong. So that was something that I had to think about because I was also very grossed out by that whole encounter. But I also had to think about the culture and the time that it took place.
01:02:20
Speaker
Yeah, and I do think like I can, I feel like we can safely assume that her intention was to contrast the male experience, like her experience with a truck driver versus, you know, how it was all about him versus this was like more partnership.
01:02:37
Speaker
The only thing I can think of now to I guess explain, I just feel like maybe it was about, because I have to assume that everything she put in there is for a reason, right? And like all of the words are for a reason. And so when she's talking about, she like looked at him and like the back of his neck and his red hair and how he like
01:03:00
Speaker
touched the back of his neck or something. That's very much, if there are any queer people here who are familiar with the lesbian master doc, which is about compulsory heterosexuality, basically.
Exploration of Consent and Intimacy
01:03:12
Speaker
It's very interesting reading. And it's just by somebody, just somebody who's had experience. In fact, I think maybe multiple lesbians put it together. I'm not sure. It's just like a Google doc, basically. Highly recommended reading. It helped explain a lot of stuff about myself to me, but it's like,
01:03:30
Speaker
It talks in there about like, you're not about how, cause this is how I viewed men, right? Where like I assumed it was sexual attraction, but it wasn't. It was like literally like talking yourself through it. Like, Oh, he has muscles. Yeah. Those are interesting. Yeah. I could touch those muscles.
01:03:52
Speaker
And that's very much how it felt. And of course, I'm watching it through my mind experience. That's kind of how it seemed to me was very much like, yeah, he's got a nice neck. And I, because she says, I think I could kiss him or said like, there was something about the way that she said that where it was very much like, maybe she, you know, maybe she's is curious about it. So in a way, like maybe is an
01:04:17
Speaker
in the view of the time and the French culture like maybe it is like kind of consensual where it's like she's curious and like that's why she's not completely put off because she is just listening and is kind of curious and like maybe that's why yeah maybe that's why she's smiling because she's like
01:04:38
Speaker
Oh, like, this wasn't a horrible experience. But like, clearly, hmm, once you see her with her ex girlfriend, yeah, no, this was this is truth. Like, this is Yeah, yeah. For sure. That was like an experiment to see if maybe, you know,
01:04:57
Speaker
I don't know. Absolutely. I feel like I'm going to get canceled so hard. No, no, no. At least not by me. I mean, this is why I bring different people to this podcast because it's like you just get to hear like perspectives that you wouldn't normally because, you know, you're watching it in like because you worked here when I was watching it. I was there. So it's like we don't get to like see each other's expressions. Right.
01:05:23
Speaker
I mean, the things that I watch with my husband where like we come out of it and he's like, that's fantastic. And I was like, I hated it. And I'll be like, oh my God, this is like the best thing since sliced bread. And he's just like, what? And like, what are we reading the same film? And I just, I love that. I love when there's a film you can watch where
01:05:41
Speaker
Your what you take out of it is completely different and what someone else takes out of it That means that that director has done a fantastic job of making their movie universal, right? And so so then let me ask you this What would you say is like what was your favorite part of the film? Um
01:06:03
Speaker
I think the beginning, like the first act with just her alone, I was surprised at how, cause again, I started this by saying like, I don't like weird, slow, like French films. It's very auteur for sure. Yeah. And because I often like good art and like all of them, I just feel like it's like really self-congratulatory, like kind of massivatory, you know? And it's like so slow and I'm like, oh, I don't care.
01:06:30
Speaker
Like just get me to the action. But this from the first moment, I had so many questions that I couldn't wait to be answered, but I also could wait because it's like I immediate, that's why I said meditative where like I fell into this slow, um, even like she even literally meditates basically by focusing on her breathing because there's like nothing else going on except to literally play with her
01:06:55
Speaker
breathing and I'm like yeah that's probably how we got breathing techniques for meditation and so I had so many questions but was also enjoying the slow reveal of each step and each thing that she slowly revealed I was like I want to know more like who is this other person and so it started just like it was like taking us on a journey and then you know I hated everything with like the truck driver
01:07:23
Speaker
Because I think I was just like triggered. And then her with her girlfriend. I was like, I did like
01:07:34
Speaker
Um, and I liked it, especially to contrast with the experience with the driver. And then by the end, cause I interpret it as just like a constant cycle of her going back to like, cause she leaves and then at the beginning of it is, and so I left. So, and then just like her going back and back and back. So.
01:07:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think the first third of it, where there are so many questions that aren't answered yet. Definitely so many questions. Yeah. I was like, girl, what's your job? What do you do for a living? How do you put food on the table? But yeah, Chantal is very much focused on women's lives and their lived experience. And again, this is definitely one of those pandemic movies, right, to be able to see
Influence of Chantal Ackerman and Female Filmmakers
01:08:26
Speaker
someone else going through something, even when there wasn't a pandemic, it was just kind of like, okay, this is, when you're by yourself, it's so hard to know whether you're okay. And I love that, like,
01:08:40
Speaker
something like this is so simple. It's slow cinema. It's something that people wouldn't actually gravitate to. And that's why I really wanted to see it. And also just this filmmaker who has clearly influenced so many people, so many great movie makers. So then what would be your overall rating?
01:09:04
Speaker
I always asked those. And people were just like, I have no idea. I feel like I have two different rating systems, right? Because there's the system of like, what I am I so obsessed with this that I want to watch it over and over again? You know, do I enjoy watching it over again? Or yeah, and I honestly don't want to watch this again.
01:09:26
Speaker
I mean, that's totally fine. But in terms of like, while I was watching it, because I was like, I put it off to be honest. You and me both. Yeah, because I'm like, Oh, it's gonna be slow and black and white and blah, and then as soon as it started, I was like, Oh, I'm intrigued. So yeah, and I, um, it's hard to describe, like, because I didn't quite
01:09:52
Speaker
enjoy it like it wasn't entertainment but it also didn't feel like work like i feel like a lot of oscars this is why i don't really watch oscar movies either like those feel like homework you know what i need to like watch just to see the oscars and so that's why i just like haven't for the last several years because it's not enjoyable so
01:10:11
Speaker
But I felt like it was important. And I also felt grateful when I started watching it because I was like, I think I needed to see this. And now it sparked more interest in me to check out her other films and then other queer filmmakers who I had never heard of her, but I should have. And that's why we're doing this podcast because we should have heard about her. We should have heard about work.
01:10:37
Speaker
And I, you know, I don't know if this is something that if you were in film school, you would learn, but I went to film school. We never watched anything by any women. Like the only thing we watched by a woman was Lini Riefenstahl's Nazi propaganda. What? That was the only female director we saw. I'm not even kidding. So those guys should get canceled.
01:10:56
Speaker
Yeah. That's not a full body of work, in my opinion. No, it's actually like, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like, that's fucked up. It really is fucked up. But that's why I didn't think I was a director. I just never saw other, like, I'm actually jealous of young women today who want to be directors, because I'm like, I didn't even let myself think of myself as a director until the pandemic.
01:11:20
Speaker
And now they see people that look like them who are making things. Which is important. Not just for them. But you have people like Catherine Bigelow, who is doing action movies. But she is the only female director's name that I had known for 30 years.
01:11:37
Speaker
Exactly. And so, and that's what this podcast is. And we're going to be exploring so much of all of these people that really deserve recognition. I mean, I know that Chantel's work is like in the top 100 films for the BBC, like, like in terms of art.
01:11:55
Speaker
in terms of art, her work is seen. But I think to the general public, people who've watched very similar movies to this, but by men, need to know that women were also doing this stuff. They just weren't as seen by the public. They weren't as popularized. And so hopefully for our listeners,
01:12:19
Speaker
Even if you don't watch this twice, we should at least watch it once. Because for me, I think in terms of rating, I don't have a rating. For me, this was like going to a museum, right? Going to a museum and seeing a really beautiful piece of art and being moved by it and knowing that I might not see this art again.
01:12:41
Speaker
But I will remember it. I will remember its influence on me. I may even take some of that influence into something else that I'm doing. And it almost defies rating. To me, this feels like when I'm rating something, like you said, it's either like, I'm going to watch this again, or I absolutely hated this, or this was slow, or whatever. And I feel like everything she did was purposeful. It was artistic. So to give it a rating is almost to just oversimplify it. Yes.
01:13:10
Speaker
So don't want to do that because that was fantastic. Her body of work is super great. And I will probably schedule another one of her films that will probably be slow and French. But I'm OK with it. But we're OK with it. We're OK with it. And as you know, I know that there's some people out there be like, blah, blah, blah, I can't watch the titles. No, no, no. As Bong Joo-ho famously said recently, once your tiny ass, I'm adding the tiny ass. He didn't say that.
01:13:37
Speaker
But once you overcome the one-inch-tall barrier of subtitles, you'll be introduced to so many more amazing movies. Are people even still saying that they can... Really? I watch even English stuff with subtitles because I have auditory processing issues. I just can't hear the dialogue. I don't know if that's sound design or whatever.
01:13:58
Speaker
Even if you're outside of disability, outside of foreign language, if you think about how many different accents are in the US alone, I have to put on subtitles for people from Alabama, people from Minnesota, people from Jersey.
01:14:16
Speaker
It's, you know, it's better to get the full context than just be like, oh, I don't understand what this person says. So subtitles are useful, you know, they're useful, but it's just, I mean, for me, I love foreign films. And like, there were a lot of films that I saw that originated as foreign films and then were copied by Hollywood.
01:14:39
Speaker
And yeah, poorly. And so if you expose yourself, you like you just kind of see just how much inspiration is being just like repackaged. And there's some films where it's just like, really, you just like remade this shop for shot, just so you could put English subtitles, like not have to put like subtitles, like what in the world? It was already perfect. Like, aren't they remaking parasite?
01:15:01
Speaker
And I'm like, but why?
Cultural Representation and Language Nuances
01:15:04
Speaker
It was perfect. It's perfect the way it is. Also, it's a very cultural thing that you can't necessarily replicate here. Yeah, and I mean, I would hope, I'm feeling very optimistic that like, especially with how big like K-pop and K-dramas are here in the States,
01:15:28
Speaker
I'm optimistic that this aversion to subtitles is going to go away because you are missing out. This is the only way that I'm able to see what Korean culture is like or other cultures are like.
01:15:44
Speaker
I think that people would be, I think you're highly missing out on the rest of the world and like their points of view because, and I'm already upset that I'm missing out on the nuance of the language because I'm missing it. But like highly recommend, like, for example, I just finished this show, this French show about agents called Call My Agent. Well, in English it's called my agent, but in French it's, which is 10% because that's how much they take out.
01:16:10
Speaker
And it's so good. I've been wanting to watch that. Yeah. Oh, I love it. It's funny, but like in a French way as well. Then there's also other things that are so universal also.
01:16:24
Speaker
That's what I mean. You definitely got to go be seeing things that are in other languages and stuff. If only just to see what things are the same. It just breaks down barriers. I know there's a lot of things that's probably wrong with Netflix, but at least one of the things that I think they have tried to do and might have done successfully is breaking down those barriers. Once they made that international market,
01:16:49
Speaker
of movies because there was a point where like you couldn't see Korean. No. Where would I have seen K-dramas? Or K-dramas. And now you can. And now I can see different cultures. I can see how single people interact over there. I can see how married people interact.
01:17:08
Speaker
And it just creates a world where we can actually come together with, oh, this is a similar emotion. This is a similar thing. And now I'm seeing that these people are not that different from me. And I actually love hearing the language. Yes. Oh, it's so beautiful.
01:17:26
Speaker
And my husband will laugh at this because I have watched so many Scandinavian dramas that I literally sometimes don't even need subtitles because I'm just like, I can hear some words and be like, oh, I know what they're saying. And so I don't have to pay as much attention to the screen because
01:17:46
Speaker
Again, your brain eventually picks it up. I think one of the things that really frustrates me is how they're now doing dubbings for these shows instead of just letting the actor's natural voice. It's like you have an option to go in and say, I want an English dubbing of this. And I'm just like, but why, brah? I do have to admit.
01:18:07
Speaker
On call my agent, there was a time where I was like, I do kind of just want an English dub because I'd already, there's four seasons and I was on like season three or four already. And I was like, I know what all their voices sound like. So like I wanted to watch an English dub just so, because again, ADHD. So sometimes I like to play like mindless little games on my phone or like my switch. And I,
01:18:32
Speaker
was, like, tired of reading. And I was like, I feel like I've put in the work enough on this show. But they didn't have one. And I was like, you know what? You're right, though. You're right that you don't have an English dub of this. So shame on me. No, I did that. I won't. I'll admit that I did do that for Dark.
Personal Viewing Experiences
01:18:50
Speaker
Oh, I still haven't finished. The first two seasons, I watched without
01:18:58
Speaker
without like a dubbing and then I remember season three I was just like okay well I kind of want to do other things like clean the kitchen and I want to be able to like so you know I threw it on and I immediately threw it off because I hated the voices that they used yeah because I accidentally started one episode uh some episode like on season two I think and I was like how did this end up on English like but I didn't even realize for a while I was like something is off something's wrong with the voice and then I realized they were speaking English and I was like oh that's
Finding Queer Rom-Com Adventure Films
01:19:27
Speaker
why
01:19:27
Speaker
So let's do it. Man, that show, we got to talk offline about that show. I need to finish watching it. Yes, it was so good. Well, I know we spent a lot of time talking and I'm so glad that you were able to come on here. It's fantastic. I will look for more rom-com-y adventure stuff with queer people for you. I don't think they exist really.
01:19:55
Speaker
There's not a lot. You might be right. Because sometimes I try to find, I think, what was it I was trying to look for last year? Yeah, last year I was trying to find kung fu movies by female directors. And would you believe how much of a struggle? I believe
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:20:13
Speaker
it. Like they did not exist. And I found
01:20:16
Speaker
one. So stay tuned. That's awesome though. I want to see that. We're gonna, we're gonna be watching that at some point. I don't know if it's this season or next season, but it's Commentuia from the Stream Queen.
01:20:27
Speaker
Ooh, can I sign up for that one? Oh, yeah, you might be able to. You might be able to. It's going to be fun. Anyway, so thank you, Audrey. It's up for chatting with me about this movie. It is always great, like I said, to get a different perspective when it comes to films, particularly films by female filmmakers. And thank you, everyone, for listening today. And I hope you learned something new. I hope you go watch this movie and you don't care about spoilers because it's not going to make any sense until you'll see it anyway.
01:20:54
Speaker
But remember, you can subscribe to my podcast and you can get notified when our next episode drops. And until next time, it is me, the Austrian Queen. Thanks!