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Episode 447: Brooke Champagne Sits Back from the Suckitude
419 Plays3 days ago
Brooke Champagne (@champagne_brooke) is a writer in the thick of it: the grind of it, the messiness of it, the working-out-of-it. One minute with Brooke and you know you're in for rollicking fun conversation about the essay, about writing, and about Nola Face: A Latina's Life in the Big Easy (University of Georgia Press).
Sponsor: The Power of Narrative Conference. Use CNF15 at checkout for a 15% discount.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Introduction and Promotions
00:00:01
Speaker
A, The Front Runner, The Life of Steve Prefontaine is available for pre-order from the generous people at Harper Cone's and Mariner Books. I've gotten some nice notes from people who beat that link like it owed them money. You can visit the bookseller of your choice.
00:00:17
Speaker
Maybe drop down $32.99 for one or $65.98 for two or $98.97 for three. ah I'm just spitballing here. Everything helps. ah Every author, you know, under the sun begs for pre-orders and you only have so many dollars at your disposal. So I'll just say, please consider it.
00:00:38
Speaker
All right, listen, promotional support for the podcast is brought to you by the Power of Narrative Conference. Celebrating its 26th year on the last weekend of March 28th and 29th, three to 400 journalists from around the world will descend on Boston.
00:00:57
Speaker
The capital city of my home state keynote speakers include Susan Orlean, Connie Schultz, and Dan Zach, and they're going to deliver the knowledge. And then they're batting cleanup, closing keynote with none other than Connie Chung. Listeners to this podcast can get 15% off your enrollment fee by using the code CNF15. To learn more, visit combeyond.bu.edu you and use that code CNF.
00:01:27
Speaker
15. Oh, you ready for this week's theme song? I don't know how much longer I'm going to do this. It's kind of a lot of work to find these clips, but i here she is.
00:01:42
Speaker
Because the work I make finds its readers because it is designed for them. For me, you know, Envy is a real sibling to Awe. I'm just a mule. but This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
Live Event Announcement
00:02:03
Speaker
Oh, hey there, CNN, this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell. I'm Brendan Romero, the voice of a generation. If you're in Eugene Sunday, January 19th, I'm doing a live recording with a local writer, journalist, storyteller Chandler Henderson at Gratitude Brewing from 1 to 3 p.m.
00:02:24
Speaker
The pod recording will be in a 45-minute window in that two-hour slot. As part of a social event, we're looking ahead to events in the spring with Leah Satilly, who has a new book out, and me, who has a new book out. So keep your CNF in here to the ground. Today we have Brooke Champagne.
00:02:45
Speaker
She's the author of the excellent superlative essay collection, Nola Face, A Latina's Life in the Big Easy. It's published by the University of Georgia Press. This was a wild, rollicking conversation. How could it not when Brooke butters me up with things like this?
00:03:05
Speaker
You were the Dan Patrick of Creative Nonfiction. How about that? But seriously, I feel like Brooke is a sister from another Mr. Odd because of my true biological sister. There's also a name Brooke. So there's some cosmic weirdness on the prowl. Some guests come on and they sit back and play pickleball. This was Grand Slam tennis. If you like the word fuck,
00:03:26
Speaker
You're gonna love this chat. Show notes to this episode more at BrendanOmero.com. Hey, there! You can sign up for my monthly rage against the Algorithm newsletter, book recommendations, links to cool shit, an exclusive happy hour, first of the month.
00:03:42
Speaker
No spam. Can't beat it. There's also patreon dot.com slash cnfpod. If you want to throw a few bucks into the CNF and coffers, the upper tiers get coaching calls with me. We can work some things out for you. Had a good one the other day with patron Michael Gerber. If you want to window shop, check out patreon dot.com slash cnfpod. Okay.
Interview with Brooke Champagne - Introduction
00:04:06
Speaker
So Broke has written like a million essays, closer to 30, but close enough.
00:04:12
Speaker
so So we dig into the art of the essay, finding boys, writing a ton of bad shit, asking your writing group for the feedback you want and need, and sitting back from the succitude. What the fuck does that mean? I have a parting shot on what it means to be a pro. But for now, here is Brooke.
00:04:32
Speaker
Champagne.
Exploring Essay Writing
00:04:44
Speaker
Just in terms of of essay, as ah just as a genre, what but what is it about essays that you like as a writer and a reader? um They're weird.
00:04:58
Speaker
you can do anything with them. I don't, i I think about as, well, I guess I was talking to a friend about this recently because I teach um in the MFA program and I teach, I'm currently teaching a creative nonfiction workshop and um my students, the kids these days, ah the 20 somethings are very, you know, I'm always learning from them, you know, and they're like, we don't believe in genre. A lot of them say that. And I'm kind of like,
00:05:25
Speaker
I mean, I get it, but I'm like, I think in essays, you know what I mean? like i'm It's just something happens or just the a fixation that I get. And I'm like, I don't know how else I'm going to work it out. like I just don't know how else I can do it.
00:05:42
Speaker
Um, I, it's not going to be eliminated. I'm not going to create a fake character who's going through this shit. It's gotta be me and it's got it. So, and I guess I started doing, I mean, it's been decades. It's been a, you know, it's been like over half my life that this was just the path that I take.
00:05:58
Speaker
to figure out the stuff that I'm going through, or that the world's going through, or hopefully both at the same time, you know? Absolutely. And who who were some of the early essay writers that you read, that you locked into, that like you kind of turned the world from black and white into color for you?
00:06:17
Speaker
Well, not necessarily an essayist and we don't have to parse essay and memoir unless you want to we can totally go down that road, which I kind of do in the book too, but I when I read Mary Cars Liars Club, I would like Fuck yes, it was that moment of just of both like I could never ever do this But also like I want to try yeah I like I that something about like growing up Nasty poor but like hopeful and like making everything funny There's just something about the ethos of her and of that book that I was like that kind of turned things I was like, okay
00:06:56
Speaker
graduate school, like find some kind of path um of of writing something along these lines. um But as as far as the essay, like a personal essay, I don't know if it was like one collection. It was sort of like once I started writing them, I kind of gobbled up just every contemporary essayist I could and the So sort of Melissa Phobos is, and and you know, the Leslie Jameson, everyone who like, by the way, who are not stylistically like me, but just sort of figuring out how other people do it, how they how they figure out a way to start, continue and end. So I that's, yeah.
00:07:35
Speaker
i like I like that. I often kind of use ah yeah music as a metaphor and just in terms of, you know, if you're feeling feeling stuck or you want to draw some inspiration in whatever yeah whatever genre you might be noodling in and be like, you know, I'm going to pull this album down. I'm going to listen to
Music as Inspiration
00:07:54
Speaker
this. and I'm going to try to mainline this into my head.
00:07:56
Speaker
and hell you And that's kind of like a good essay or a good essay collection from your favorite writer, be like, you know, I'm just a little stuck. I want to I'm going to put this track on the record player and I'm going to just ah get this into my brain, be like, OK, that's going to kind of grease the skids for me.
00:08:14
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. Can I like this this so funny that you mentioned music because I'm teaching a class and voice in the spring and I'm kind of trying to figure out what I'm doing with that and just like a little assignment I thought of just something short would be to Really have students not bring in their favorite song because favorite song that's just that's that's a hard thing to do but bring in a song where you're like literally studying the voice not even having to know much about music but like what is the voice what is the sound in this discrete song doing that matches the content or that diverges from it or like just trying to describe someone else's voice how it sounds so then we can like do that
00:08:58
Speaker
in our sentences, too. Anyway, just like a music note. Yeah. Well, it it goes to a point where we can draw. I mean, you can even just for the the writing of lyrics or even just the writing of the musical notation itself. Those are artistic media that can really inform like our own prose. And, you know, you know, for you and yeah just what are some other things that that you consume that that helps inform ah the writing you do?
Writing Routine and Influences
00:09:28
Speaker
I the the music for sure I've sort of long been a fan of hip hop and folk kind of stuff like every like really the sort of almost polar opposites but really lyric driven. I like to just figure out how like words are arranged in music and so I listen to that quite a bit not necessarily to get myself in the writing mode, but just as like a kind of daily practice and really to like just movement bodily movement is kind of like the thing that I have to do before I sit down to write or else I'm just like jittery as fuck. You know what I mean? Just like I can't I like if you if I'm gonna have to sit here for a couple hours, I need to sort of in a different way be exhausted so that I can't sit there and self loathe. So running and weightlifting and all that, you know, all that silly stuff. But yeah,
00:10:20
Speaker
Yeah, in in terms of music, I usually will shoehorn, and no matter what I do, I will find a way to get like just a snippet of a Metallica lyric into something I've done. I always do it. in And this like latest book that I've written that's in copyedits now, like I even like even got a little Nirvana in there.
00:10:39
Speaker
so nice Yeah, nice yeah from my favorite but Nirvana song is penny royalty and I got a I got a lyric from that in there that that that fits the the theme of what I was talking about but I was just like oh I'm gonna I'm gonna steal anemic royalty and I'm just gonna put it in here and Oh, that's so nice. Did you quote directly or was it just sort of like, a did you get away with a little paraphrasing? i Getting away with some paraphrasing. Yeah, I'm not going to be. Yeah, because my I'm living in the the early 70s in this book, so it's like ah to have Nirvana in there would would not work, but but I did. I did put in put in that phrase and I was like, yeah, this this fits.
00:11:18
Speaker
Oh, that's so great. That's so great.
Developing a Writing Voice
00:11:20
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and I love that you're you're teaching a course on voice and that's something I have in my notes too that I wanted to talk to you about because, you know, your writing is is very voicey in a great way because you kind of just lock into ah your point of view and the way you're bringing your words to the page. So lot just in terms of voice, how did you work through that and start to develop your own?
00:11:43
Speaker
Oh God, how this, Brendan, this is only an hour know conversation here. um It's a great question. I mean, I think that it's sort of like like nothing but time. Like it's just, this is also a subject of the book, my my vast amounts of writerly and and other other kinds of envy.
00:12:08
Speaker
And like, just these young whippersnappers who are like, I'm 25, I got a fucking book. And I'm like, how? Like, it's just it's just one of those things, like, also like, kudos, and it's amazing. And fuck you. And fuck you.
00:12:26
Speaker
Also that. I love them. These are these are by the way, like former students are like amazing all star people, but also like how um but they just are. They're just brilliant. I needed to really suck for a long time to figure out who I was on the page. I just don't know even how else to say it. And I think that's sort of what voices like just knowing who you are on the page, like this, that sort of, um for me, I mean, I think I have like many different voices, but kind of just like really self-deprecating, but also confident, finding that line of like, I fucking know this, also please love me. um Also maybe I don't know this and if you disagree, it's really okay, kind of thing, invitational sort of thing. It just took getting rid of the thing that I sometimes still do and I try to like get this tick out of myself of like of posturing of like guys I promise you I went to college I I promise you I read and I have a little bit of smarts I think I had that that real imposter syndrome of like I shouldn't even be here so um so let me find the words that I don't even fully
00:13:39
Speaker
Understand the definitions of um, I had that in my writing for a while and I tried to you know Just things like that the ticks getting rid of the ticks that are not purposeful There are some takes that are purposeful and that that kind of helps helps with the voice Yeah, I I guess that's a long-winded way of saying I just had to suck yeah and and and and and then sort of sit back from the succitude and Know when it did suck and be like, okay that is strip away the stuff that is really not really not me like the sort of faux academic or something even though i've like been in academia my whole adult life like that's not um my ethos even though it's my work you know what i mean does that make sense oh absolutely just first gen college grad you know that coming
00:14:25
Speaker
um Absolutely. and And I think a lot of people, ah you the best writers are the ones, or the more most prolific, are probably the ones who can sit with and sit with their bad writing long to long enough to get to the good stuff. And you said like sitting with the succitude, which I love.
00:14:42
Speaker
in ah And so like how did you just kind of cultivate the the perseverance to to weather the succitude so you could get to ultimately what is you know a distillation of you you know in book form, essay form, whatever? Oh, that's so great. like i I'm trying to envision what that looks like, what your question looks like. And like if you and the listeners could see what how to weather that perseverance is like,
00:15:12
Speaker
my pathetic ass self like crying and like i'm giving up fuck this like i don't i don't need to do this who needs this pain like why why for like 100 100 readers like on a good day like what what am i why um so to persevere i guess it's just i think i had like somehow along the way over many years just made writing Itself kind of a tick, you know, like the thing that I was talking earlier like yeah I get up every day and I you know jog with the dog and I do this and I Fail to meditate and then I sit and write and it's just like another just sort of another thing that I'm doing and being like less judgmental of like, oh that like Finding this and by the way, I'm the opposite of fucking zen in my life, but I have tried to find in writing like not to get so elated
00:16:07
Speaker
on the good days, like the good writing days or the good writing sessions, like, oh my, like I used to have that and I think that was a problem. Like I'd have a great writing session, be like, does everyone know I'm a fucking genius? Like, wow. And then on the bad days, does everyone know that I'm the biggest fraud? And now I think it's just like, over time, it's just finding a way to be like, oh, that was just another, it's just another day. It's just another session.
00:16:33
Speaker
glad for that good sentence, but also like, you know, whatever, I'll probably get rid of it tomorrow. um So all that to say is that I did all this very immaturity and it took a a long time to just sort of be like, all right, it's just it's just something I do. It's not like, it's not precious, it's not um it's not important, but it's not not important too, you know? yeah Well, and given that it takes a long time to find your voice and so through a lot of repetition, a lot of reading, a lot of practice, ah looking over your shoulder and seeing the success of others often can make that it feels like that time. It's just it's just not happening for you. And, you know, how have you metabolized that over over the years of that that comparison trap while you're still just kind of struggling and spinning your tires?
00:17:27
Speaker
Yeah, I if that's it's hard. No, I don't
Perspectives on Envy and Success
00:17:31
Speaker
know. I think really I Cheryl straight or someone said like in I think maybe in tiny beautiful things something about just like maybe she's she said a couple times and I think it helped me. This was like probably a decade ago, just like Envy is just such a waste of time. yeah It's just a like, there's no, like you're not gonna find your voice if you're like, but that voice and that voice and that like, you can't, and also that's, so I, it again, like another process of like, just being like, you know what? Also, when one thing that this is really true, the the more, the longer I've been alive, I guess, and the more students I've taught, the more like working writers I know,
00:18:13
Speaker
And this is also perhaps immature, but it doesn't work for me. I'm just being like, dude, for real, their success is actually my success. Like I have tried to help cultivate other people's work. And I just kind of feel like karmically, um, when good stuff happens to people I know, like, I'm just like, Oh,
00:18:32
Speaker
That's like, weirdly feeding me. It's not something that's like against me. It's not like, oh, they got something so I can't. It's not no like they got something. That's fucking awesome. And like, I was part of their journey. So like, I get some of that. Every time something good happens, to seat I'm like, Oh my god, you're welcome. That sort of thing. Yeah, it takes a long time to reach that point. I know just going back into the the start of this podcast and really the crucible through which it was forged through was just through a swamp of bitterness and resentment. and it was you can't You can't tell because you're very generous. Well, yeah this was part of, it was an exercise in trying to kind of like what you're saying is kind of celebrate people instead of feeling like it's a zero-sum game. and And even Hanifa Durakib, who we spoke to ah several months ago at this point, you know, and I asked him about yeah envy and jealousy and he he turned
00:19:26
Speaker
he Phrased it in the best way that only Hanif can is just like he started to see envy as a as a cousin or a sister to ah and Yeah, and I remember the that conversation. Yeah, and it's just like oh my god Like what a great way like if you're starting to feel that Spidey sense or that that tickle of envy and jealousy. It's like okay you kind of note it and you realize like oh, I just I That's a door opening instead of a door closing. And it's just really ah a it's really the only way you're going to survive to think of it in those terms. Yes. That was such a – that was so good. By the way, um I'm teaching Hanif right now. I'm teaching – Oh, nice.
00:20:06
Speaker
the basketball and ascension and it's uh, yeah, and so we're and the way that he says like he calls his readers beloveds That's just another like invitation to be like, I love you. All right It's like i'm gonna read that i'm gonna read that because like, you know, so yes Yes, the the little phrasings, but yes, uh, the aw thing is really true And I feel like that's the only way yeah, like you're saying the only way to go forward You know, speaking of essays and everything, and just I just wanted to get a sense of, you know for you, if when you're thinking about essays and essay collections, like what what's the difference, or how do you think of an essay collection versus merely a collection of essays?
Crafting Essay Collections
00:20:47
Speaker
Yeah, I am going to forget now. um I think about this a lot.
00:20:53
Speaker
there's just
00:20:57
Speaker
a Well, what I try to do with mine is like, okay, I had just a shit ton of essays. It was actually my husband who was like, I think you've at this point published like 25 essays. Do you have a book? And I was like, um do I? I like i didn't i didn't know. um So the thing I didn't want that some writers can do just because each essay is so weighted and and and it's like done over like large twas of time. um And I'm thinking of like Sally Tisdale's book, I think it's called On Violation or Violation. It's just, it's essay spanning a long time and they're just like kind of in like between two bounded pages, but there's no like
00:21:48
Speaker
straight up journey. i I've read that. that's I love that book because it's just each discrete essay is amazing. But there isn't like a narrative arc. And that's I think that book is just a book of essays rather than like an essay collection.
00:22:03
Speaker
which I envision like just has an arc. like There's like a an invitation to start, something like, hey, this is the book I'm going to write. And then maybe like some like markers in between of like, hey, we're on this road together. Here's here's what's about to happen. ah Or maybe here's like a little teaser. And that's those are the kind of collections. that That's the kind of collection I wanted this to be, to sort of Again, I don't even know the difference, honestly, and if you could, no no one, I've read so much about it, no one has been able to enlighten me, like, really the difference between memoir and essays and an essay collection, because I both see i see them both sort of having that arc of some kind. like it's it's It's one larger story, um discrete essays, memoirs in between. yeah That's what I wanted. so that's that's That's what I tried to do here.
00:22:53
Speaker
Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, and when i when I get confused about ah mem memoir and how to like really distill something, a friend of mine, Richard Gilbert, ah who he wrote a great essay – no, not even an essay, just like a blog post. This was probably like in 2010, a long time ago. but it is yeah um and how he broke broke down how like the Great Gatsby is a memoir. It's a novel, but it's a memoir. yeah And it's like, oh yeah, of that of that summer. And I think of a Christmas story with Ralphie and everything, like that's a memoir of of that that Christmas. And it's like, okay, yeah, that's what memoir is, is this slice of life zoomed in real tight instead of like autobiography or even
00:23:37
Speaker
segmented essays like but a great essay collection too can have kind of a thread that in recurring characters that kind of pull you along that it makes it feel cohesive even though you could flip to any essay you want and read whatever you want. yeah Yeah. Yeah, you could you could I kind of feel like that's that's funny that you said like because you could like with with my book and i've i've I've read books with like the disclaimer at the beginning, like, don't you fucking read this out of order? You know what I mean? yeah Like, you have to read this, this isn't, and I thought about doing that, but like, of course, like, you know, i i I love the idea of someone like opening to push one of my essays because it's a page long, you know? Like, that's fine, but also it is intended to have like kind of beginning, middle, end, but yeah, I think it's, first of all, by the way, just,
00:24:30
Speaker
rewind someone reading us at all is is also a gift. So start wherever you like, you know. Oh, yeah.
Humor in Writing
00:24:38
Speaker
it's a To that point, one of my one of my favorite essays, of course, in the book was how not to hate your writing. and Oh, you love that? Thank you. Oh, shit. Is it funny? It's hilarious. It is it is hysterical. And I will. Most of the book is hysterical. And in this particular one just stuck out with me, too, because I have to every single day of my life is is an exercise in not hating not only my writing, but myself.
00:25:02
Speaker
right true yeah Yeah, and this one passage that you got from ah or one ah One quote from ah professors like the world isn't asking to read your work indeed It may often ask whether or not it needs more writers. and It's like it's like good lord It's like how do you? create in the face of such commentary ah is that Is that a legit question? Yeah, oh yeah because yeah because really, the it's it's kind of true. there's so there's only There's such a finite attention out there, and it's like, the does the world really need more writers? But I would argue it does, because we need those those voices and that that electricity on the page.
00:25:44
Speaker
Right. I mean, like I, I, I struggled that first of all, true, true quote, true professor did say this, you know, like in an MFA program where it's like, anyway, this is, this is the early 2000s. So this, it was a different time. Professors just said shit and you were like, okay, yes, maybe I shouldn't be here. Um, I, I, the way that I get through like tough shit like that, that it's just a,
00:26:14
Speaker
preternatural thing is just like kind of make fun of it. ah is is you know like just sort of like that is Even though everything that you said is like true, like there is finite attention. like what What am I doing? Who am I doing it for? I think ultimately I have like myself as an audience in mind, or maybe like the one, like my husband is a great reader like just in general, but also of my work. like He knows what's good and not. And if I can, like I'm just sort of like,
00:26:43
Speaker
can I make him laugh slash cry? If I can do both of those in this
Receiving Feedback
00:26:47
Speaker
essay, like fuck, you know, like that's, I've done something, I've moved something in someone. um So that's kind of what i I try to think of as like, I'm not looking at the world of writer's capital W and like, where is my place in it? And like, am I gonna get a big, fuck I just wanna, I can't think about like real stupid,
00:27:10
Speaker
time wasting shit like that. I'm just like, I just need to like do the work. You know, and if I do the work, I don't know what's gonna come but I've done work. I don't know if that sounds like super like work ethic Protestant bullshit, but like I just working does they kind of help through tough times, you know. Well, it's the only thing in this mess we're in that we can control. yeah And I think that it's just, you never know who's gonna read your stuff. You never know, like it could, you whoever could pick it up and then share it with their legions of followers. And you're like, and suddenly, through you know, and suddenly you're Maggie Smith and her poem goes super viral and it leads to things she could have never imagined. And and right she couldn't,
00:27:58
Speaker
Yeah, go ahead. Oh, no, I was just gonna say those are the things like she grounds herself in the work And you never know as long as you're doing the work, maybe luck will strike too Yeah, also, I never fucking want that to happen to me. Like that's that's amazing how that happened to her That's like, you know, she was always a working writer always just doing the stuff and then like this Good bones like that's it. Everything turns and like that just sounds Too hard for me. I don't know i mean Yeah, well, and suddenly you become, you now are like this leader among people who want something similar to happen to them and you never asked for that. And so now she's like, now it's kind of like ah e when he pray love blows up suddenly Liz Gilbert is now like the beacon of hope and it's like, oh my God, now you're like this cult leader and you didn't ask for that. Yeah, and you know, and she's also, in that's I mean, these are just both great examples because
00:28:54
Speaker
they both dealt with it so well like they've just like found some equanimity and like wisdom and like I remember Liz Gilbert's like Ted talk about like I'm never gonna fucking write a book that's that famous again and that's like fine I was like what like she you know I don't I don't know it's just like they didn't get too stupid with the fame, which is amazing. I i think I would get stupid with the fame. that that's all That's what I'm trying to say. So I don't want it. I don't want it. You'd be trading in your your yellow tail for something high end. Oh, yeah.
Generational Reflections
00:29:30
Speaker
$25 a bottle, sir. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And then they wouldn't have to check your identification anymore.
00:29:38
Speaker
Oh, God, yes. God, at least they do this. oh Oh, cashiers at Publix. I love you, but please fucking stop doing this. You know, Mimi, you see the gray. It's quite it's quite ah not annoying at this point. Yeah, 100%. Oh, is speaking of like food adjacent in this case, when you when you wrote about McFoods and frozen foods at one point in the collection, like, I'm a latchkey kid.
00:30:05
Speaker
And yeah i I subsisted off of Micro Magic hamburgers and all like bagel bites and all the all that stuff. So when you wrote like the McFood, and you and I are the same age, so we're just... yeah but Are you 1980? 80, yeah. i've got you youre gen i've got you by you I've got you by three months, yeah.
00:30:25
Speaker
Okay, yeah so you're older, so you're wiser, so I bow to you. My discerning taste in frozen food. yeah um Yes, yes. Do you identify Gen X? Big time, yeah. Okay, I knew it, I knew it. Of course, of course. I mean, that's what we are, but also, yes, you're also correct um to identify that way. ah Yeah, so that yeah, growing up, like eating just absolute shit like can you believe that like our generation is now parents to like farm the table like you know like and it's it's silly we just ate it's like oh it's cheap and and easy and our parents are like you just
00:31:05
Speaker
Put this in your gullet. I know me just I know and I'd have to like move things aside from my like my my mom's like Jenny Craig meals that were And you talk about these little like you you say things like those little details and like suddenly those are the things that will hook into someone's brain be like oh my god and I remember that from my childhood. like that's what That's what I love about your book, too. like you There are these moments where you like you say something very specific, and it's like, yes, that that resonates. It's not just like, i pick your thing. Well, since we're talking about frozen foods, it's just like it's not just like frozen meals in there. It's like Jenny Craig, which says something else about the person eating those meals.
00:31:48
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. that The full
Organizing Essays into a Book
00:31:50
Speaker
meal is 152 calories, Brendan, and that's totally normal. i get totally that's That's what our parents are doing. like i yeah And cigarettes are good for you because they make you eat less. i This is like the truth. This was the 80s. I know. It's where my body image comes but issues come from. it's like yeah It's my mom doing crunches in front of the TV to yeah ah MacGyver and waking up every morning and there was Denise Austin aerobic videos on ESPN2. Oh my God. Yes.
00:32:24
Speaker
They're fucking hair, too. So the frosted, the frosted everything, yeah frosted foods and frosted hair. The toaster strudels? Oh, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you got it. You got the you got the specifics, too, man. That's yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, when you spread that frosting on the strudel, you use your finger to do it. And that way you can lick your finger at the end. So you're not wasting any of that icing. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, God.
00:32:52
Speaker
You know with the the putting together of the essays for Nola face like what since you had so many essays and you know at your beck and call what was how How did you want to order them and put them together leave some out and put them in? So what was kind of the the thought process to how you put this thing together? Yeah, um that actually, you know once I realized, you know ah upon my husband saying like noting to me that i had a lot of essays that i wasn't aware which is that sounds like so that sounds like one of those things like people i don't know if you feel like this when people are like oh i just forgot to eat you're like shut the fuck up no one forgets to eat like but but that i just don't forget to eat maybe some people do and i truly was at the point and i think because i'd suffered for so long just knowing that like
00:33:44
Speaker
I don't know. I'm just not going to be a capital W writer. I'm just writing all the time. And and maybe and like when publishing happened, that was always great. But I was like, yeah, but on the other side of that, there's like 200 rejections. So like I just was always, and anyway, I truly wasn't aware that I had this amount of published work. Once I did, then ah the task became real, real kind of depressing and and difficult because I was like, what exactly like you said, like This is a mess. like what What is this? So i did like a weird like I printed everything out. I'm very, you know again, Gen X. I'm analog. I couldn't like i couldn't like really visualize it looking in my computer files. I had to see it. And I just kind of looked at it. And then I was like, OK. I did something that's going to, like I used Microsoft Excel for the first time in my life.
00:34:41
Speaker
and where I just like made a list of these essays and then I just figured and I got this idea I forget from what writer there's all kinds of all kinds of things, but I made like all these columns. I made like, oh my God, Brendan, I probably made like 50 columns. I was like, who who is in these essays? Like what what characters are in this essay? And then like I asked, you know, to see like where characters were. I wrote themes, like where where is this theme? The theme of maybe violence or but ah or even like tone, like which ones are funny? Like I just found like a real slap dash way of doing that. Then I got, because that was sort of helping. And then I was like,
00:35:20
Speaker
What are the first and last lines of each essay? You know, like really trying to like get into the granular, how is this, like what goes together? um What words recur?
00:35:32
Speaker
that kind of stuff. um So I did that. And then that still was enough, because I was like, I kind of generally got some order, I wanted to start ah at a place of like childhood and like kind of, and at a place, you know, naturally at a place of like, as, as contemporary, as close to now as possible. But in the interim, I was like, what, what goes in between? So I asked myself the question, why did you write this book?
00:35:54
Speaker
Like why did you write it? um What did you want readers to get out of it? like what And what kind of writer do you want to be? Like I kind of had those things and I sort of separately was like answering those questions. And that became sort of fence post, the fence post essays that are in the like the introduction, which is like, hey,
00:36:13
Speaker
This is the kind of person you're going to be dealing with in this, this essay collection. Like I'm a fucking mess. I'm, I'm a teacher who was once and perhaps still really shitty at it. I question everything I do. I play these little games, two trues and a lie with my students. I play it with myself. like You know, um You've been warned. Yes, yes, yes, it was. Yes, an invitation and a warning. That is actually a good way to think of it. So I started that way and then like just kind of feeling like asking the question as we've talked about, like I really it's important to me to be funny. That is how I survive life. um But then it's also I'm writing some like tragic shit too. So like then I asked myself a question is like, is this
00:36:56
Speaker
Tragedy and writing or comedy and also I'm from New Orleans, which is like a city full of tragedy and comedy. So All of these questions that I was asking sort of, I wanted to answer them and have those be like little interstitial essays that would then introduce a section of the book. So it's just, a all that to say is like, it just took a lot of sort of more tears and more like, maybe it's not a book, I don't know. Maybe it I just published a bunch of essays and there's nothing like, there's no sense in
Using Humor to Tackle Serious Subjects
00:37:26
Speaker
it. But I think I think i got i think i got there.
00:37:30
Speaker
Humor can be, ah we've established and I've established that this book's hilarious and i it was I had a rollicking good time and I think you're hilarious on the page and on the mic, come to think of it. Nice. Sweet. ah But humor can be really hard to pull off. So you know just in your drafting and as you're writing, you know how do you yeah how do you how do you stick the landing on something, especially once you get through heavy rewrites and sometimes you don't even know what's funny anymore?
00:37:58
Speaker
Oh my God, that is so fucking true. That is so true. I um i happen to have a really great writing group. we call ourselves the supreme cunts.
00:38:11
Speaker
um Yes, I have, ah you know, the the book in the book, I've co-opted that word. It's a great word. I think it's, it's can you be used in a lot of ways. And we use it in the very loving way. um They kind of help, they help me with this truly, because they, we've been together for a while.
00:38:30
Speaker
We meet once a week and they kind of let me know when because I I have a tendency To really I I think of I actually this is something I feel like i'm going another place. It's okay It'll all come together. I promise in workshop this semester. We've talked about, you know, like humor. You only ever hear of dry humor. Do you know what I'm saying? Everyone's like, when you're complimenting someone's right, like humor. ah Oh, he's so dry. I love how he's so dry. And I was like, what the fuck? What about the wet humorous? I'm a wet humorous. Okay. Like it's, and then I started thinking about like standup that I love. That's like the dry ones, the John Mulaney's.
00:39:11
Speaker
and then the wet ones, Richard Pryor, I could, like, we could talk about the distinction. But you know, yeah do you know what I mean by that? Like, just dry, like, I'm just, I'm kind of above all of this, and I'm very, and then the wet ones are just like, love me, love me yeah kind of thing. Oh yeah, like, Tig Notaro is the driest of the dry. Totally, yes. Yeah, it's like, you need to be really paying attention, because her jokes will, you'll miss them if you're not, like, looking at, like, ah a little, just the the delivery. But yeah, then there are some others that are just,
00:39:40
Speaker
far. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. So so i so I'm wet. I'm a what' a wet humorous. And that can be a problem because it's just sort of like ah a purple writing very much like I'm going to keep going with this and keep going and like not knowing when to pull back and not knowing when to stop being like love me love me and you know adding so it's it really is it's yet like you said what the sometimes it's sort of like what is good what is funny I don't know so that's it's just a process of like again time just take taking the time with it having other readers that you trust that sort of know know the best version of you that you can be
00:40:23
Speaker
And when you're not doing that, you know, um, so I I rely on that and really writing funny too I don't know like that's why I don't know how like improv people do it. I don't know how certain people just are funny Spontaneously or all the time. It's it's weird because I just I need that time or just are doing I have students who fucking do stand up like locally and I still haven't I still haven't gone I need to go see them because I that is the thing that scares me the most in the world like how can you just like Be like be naked basically and like and like yeah, I'm gonna fucking entertain you right now for five minutes I can't I know I need the time. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah like well with um well in the revisions and rewriting in and Are you someone who likes in the notes of whatever you share? like to have Only the the criticism to make something stronger or do you need? some
00:41:21
Speaker
good things peppered in there like, oh, I really like this. You you know what I mean? Yes, I know what you mean. Oh, and you were it's like we're connect like you are reading my this is something that I've been thinking about quite a lot because we just had workshop in my graduate seminar. And like I said, I'm in this writing group.
00:41:40
Speaker
And we love each other. We're great. We're the best comps ever. But the last thing that I got that they read with it's, it's an essay for this next collection. And it's really tried. It's really humorously wet. And it's called tit milk hotel. And it's like, it's just a It's a plug milk duck funny essay where my tit almost fell off. It actually did explode. like um And it was yeah, it's yeah, yeah it's like a whole it's a whole this is like kind of a body horror kind of collection I'm working on. But um anyway, they just in because these are these this writing group, they're my friends and they just kind of went in for like what wasn't working. And I was like,
00:42:19
Speaker
shut the can you all just fucking like say something nice like this went on for like 20 minutes and I was like wait but what about like how much you love me first we go back to like one thing that's good so all that to say is like I philosophically believe and like in as a writing teacher I believe that because I have students who are like don't say anything don't say anything good only tear it apart and i will honor what they ask of me but like i just feel instinctually that and there's pedagogy like the theory that backs this up that like the way to keep writers going it's not to say that we're all fragile ah fragile little snowflakes and with like our egos and stuff although that might be true but
00:43:03
Speaker
It's just, it it helps to start with something that I, like I see you. I see, I see you, because all our writing is a reflection of ourselves. So like, I see what you did there. I honor it. That is good in some way. Like that's a seat. So I, yes, I both want to give that as a, as a reader and a writing teacher and I fucking need it. Yes. Fucking tell me something good. Like one good thing. But then I also,
00:43:32
Speaker
as I say that I also really do need like please help me with this particularly it depends on the piece obviously but like most of the time when I give it to someone to read I know it's not done but I've already struggled mightily by myself and I just like I know that it's worth reading, you know what I mean? Like I know there's something good there, but I'm also, so it's also probably a mess. So start with, read my mind with the thing that you think is good, that I hopefully agree with and then tell me like, yeah, like here's where I'm lost. And so I definitely need that. I need that. Do you need that? Do you need people like, what do you do?
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah, i I prefer at least some, like, let me know that I'm i'm on the right path. Like, o yeah you know oftentimes i have to I had to tell my my wife this a while ago when she's reading my stuff, because she would just, she'd be like, if I dot if i don't know to anything, it means I like where you're going. But I'm like, you know, I'm like, okay. ah But sometimes if there's a nice passage there, it's nice to be like, oh, that that one really, or just be like, you could even just write a comment like, oh, good, oh, funny.
00:44:37
Speaker
You know just something because I don't need any more excuses to beat the shit out of myself and if and if I Just having a little note that oh you saw That that oh that was kind of clever or funny or or whatever and um my brilliant awesome amazing editor for this book I have coming out next year By and large he just went through and did the criticism and I just have to like tell myself like okay if you didn't make a note and most likely he it's just like okay he digs it he digs where you're going yeah with it and you just sometimes have to just be like you know be a pro be oh be a pro and just be like he's he's trying to make it as best as he can if there's no note or criticism it means it probably means you're you're on the right track. ah But it does, it but we do need, like I know I do and it sounds like you do too. It it helps to just be like, yeah, this is a good cracking paragraph. Or like, that you know, I like where you're going with this. some Just something that's very subtle. That'll put enough fuel in my tank to make sure I'm not totally delusional. I can keep going.
00:45:41
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know what, Brendan, I think it's time to ask for what you need and just, you know what I mean? Like just, it's just, you can do an LOL and I get, and I will like one tiny lowercase l LOL will fucking sail me through these next few pages. I mean, like truly.
00:45:58
Speaker
It really – it doesn't take much. You don't have to break it down, but it's – yeah, just like, okay, cool. Like, all right, I'm not – otherwise, it just feels like they're bored. And if you're not saying anything, you're like, oh, all right, I guess you're just kind of going along, going through the motions, and you're bored. It just works. Also, did you read it? Did you read this page, this empty page full of like with no – like, did you fucking read it? Like, that's that – I kind of – You know, when I was getting notes for ah for from my editor and um I would do this thing and a i would i would I would get a big chunk of chapters and all I would do is go, I would just scroll as fast as I could for his comments and it was so all all I was doing was mainlining criticism and I would read it and I'm like, ugh.
00:46:45
Speaker
And I'd have to go for like an hour-long walk. I might not even be able to touch it that day because it would just get so demoralized. I know. It's like not a good practice. I know. I feel you so hard. I know. well A little while ago in conversation you were talking about ah ah so much of the rejection that was behind a lot of the essays that you wrote. and You know, I think a lot of people who listen to the show, they they struggle with rejection still.
Handling Rejection as a Writer
00:47:09
Speaker
And and even though it's it's the way of the land, it is so natural. It's just the more you, it's a numbers game. It's a timing game. It's a luck game. And so just as you were developing the the scars and the calluses around rejection, just like how how did you just work through that? So you realized that it was it just let just like what we were saying, you know, a numbers game and just part of the ecosystem.
00:47:35
Speaker
Yeah, I had um, i've been part of several writing groups over the years that just you know It makes me sad. I kind of want to write about my writing groups Um at some point because they've all been great, but just you know people move away or just things change anyway Let me not get into that reverie. But once I remember I remember maybe a decade or more ago I'm one of my writing groups. Um, dear friend jessica said Something like she just reframed it for me. I never forgot what she said she was because she was also like she was trying to get her book out and been rejected many times and she was like further along than me and she was just like I just like I just always think that when I get rejected, it's just like
00:48:18
Speaker
Oh, it's just like this little sweet little piece. This sweet little baby hasn't found its home yet. Like there's just another home. There's just there's always going to be a home, but it's just some like just a very hopeful reframing of like this is just this is informing me of something. I don't know why and I don't like even totally fully buy that because it's like sometimes there might not be a home. You know what I mean? Like there might not be but just keeping that hopefulness and just like it's not It's not fucking personal, but it feels so personal, yeah you know? And it took, I just, it just took, like you, you, you, met you kind of phrase it perfectly. Like the calluses, the scars, it makes it now so that it's just sort of like, well, that's, it's,
00:49:03
Speaker
It's a reminder that I'm actually in the game and I'm doing it. Like there's a feeling still, you know, it's like, in it I still like just rejecting your rejection now, which will always happen. and It's, but it's amazing how the more you do something, the easier it is. And getting rejected, just the more it's happened, the more I'm like, ah, it's fucking, yeah, ah that makes sense. And there was a early, like in my twenties, I was such an idiot. This is how like, I'm just, I was such an idiot. I thought like,
00:49:30
Speaker
I got rejected, and I was like, they fucking hate me. They hate me. they Like, I thought that people thought about me. did that would That's the funniest thing. Like, they hate me. Or either that, like, I'm worthless. Or, you know, this piece is just, and that's the that's the thing that's still, I think, writing groups help with. or or Or, like, our spouses, trusted readers, to know, like, when something's, done like, when rejection can teach you, like, is this done yet?
00:50:00
Speaker
or you know what
Deciding When Writing is Ready
00:50:01
Speaker
I mean? I i think I've gotten to the point at like by now that I'm not sending out shit that's not really good or like as as I've taken it to where I can take it.
00:50:11
Speaker
I'm not sending out before then. And I think learning how to get to that spot and when you're at that spot, that's another thing that just takes time. And and and again, it takes like your readers or your editors to know, like don't put this out there yet. you know Yeah, to to that point, just pulling further pulling on that string, how do you know when something is ready to be ah put through the the mill and possibly up for rejection, but hopefully publication? Yeah.
00:50:39
Speaker
Yeah, I, I, it's that is really profound and hard to answer. But um this is like the honest thing. I, when I am not waking up in the middle of the night, with the like, thinking about this, that the the the the actual essay, like the discrete thing, like, because I'm, I, you know, I'm Perry menopausal now. So like, I'm fucking always waking up in the middle of the night.
00:51:02
Speaker
The good part about that is that um it's it informs, it helps the work. Like I'm like, I wake up and something in my subconscious is like, oh yeah, there's a note on that essay. There's a note. Like there's just something that that like penultimate paragraph is weird. This is the answer. Like weird shit like that comes to me in the middle of the night. um And then when that stops happening for any individual piece, like that's that's kind of what I know. And also that, and I've read it and read it and read it, printed it out, printed it out in a different fucking font. like um I try many different ways of being like, what could like what could possibly be different? um And when those answers stop coming, that's that's where I know. And by the way, that's when it's finished. And guess what happens? You should you see it in the book and you're like, oh, that wasn't fucking done. It wasn't done anyway. So this never ends.
00:51:58
Speaker
I have a 3 a three am.m. voice that almost makes me bolt upright ah almost every night, especially during the during in this last year and a half, two years or so. and What is the nature of your 3 a.m. voice and how do you reckon with it?
Creative Thoughts and Strategies
00:52:15
Speaker
Oh, God. That was the way that the your voice in that question was. Yeah, that's yeah. Terrifying. um How do I reckon with it? I mean, it's there's so so yours is different because i i I don't think you're pairing menopausal, but I know I am. um And so there's a lot of like, fighting like there's a lot of me fighting myself.
00:52:39
Speaker
where it's like why is my body doing this I can't do like I like this is this is bad so I fight a lot sort of like the 3am is sort of at first I'll just say this when I don't fight it everything is better you know like sometimes the 3am is sort of like you have unresolved shit this is the time that like your your body is making you do this right now. Like you didn't do the shit during the day, and this is this is this is what you get. um So there's that. And when I can kind of just like, understand that I might be up for the next hour, and do do whatever work by which I mean, like pulling up the notes on my phone and just like, you know, getting the shit down.
00:53:20
Speaker
This is I don't go to therapy. So I guess this is like my body's way of forcing it. And so and and and also like, it helps with life, but it it helps with sadly, it helps with the work. And when I say it helps with life, it doesn't help with the next day. The next day is shit, you know? Oh, yeah, every day. run it Every day is really hard because I'm tired. But resolving stuff in the middle of the night, I feel like, I don't know, also I've talked to the doctor and they're just like, oh, this is just your next 10 years. it's This is just what your body does. And it's like, this is what women get told. Like you just have to live with this. So, okay. ah But, you know, if it's working towards the writing, I mean, I don't, like, I don't know. I always wanna feel, i I don't know if you're this way too. I think, I feel like we are like in this, like, gotta be productive. oh yeah So um if I'm gonna be, if I'm gonna be like up,
00:54:12
Speaker
i I just, not that i'm it's gonna be brilliant or anything, but I'm goingnna i'm gonna not fight anymore with this the voice that woke me up and just kinda succumb and just just do it. Yeah, and the one thing I can't do, though, when I'm confronted with waking up at two or three in the morning is like i ah the idea of going and having a screen blaring in my face. I know. I just i can't. like I can't do it. So hopefully I've got a paper book that I can read. I mean, so many of the books I read for the show, it's sometimes it's a PDF that I have to pull up on my antiquated iPad or my Kindle or in the case of some others that I do have a printed book. I'm like, all right, just get up. and
00:54:52
Speaker
go read and try to knock out of 10 pages or so, take some notes. No, I do that too. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Oh oh god, do you really, do you read PDFs? Yeah, sometimes that's all the publicists send me. Oh god, I'm so glad that you got a paper copy of my book. That's so good. Yeah, me too. its i and so like Sometimes, i like ah yeah, we're saving on materials and postage. yeah um ah But yeah, i just i do to I like marking things up. I like writing things in the margins.
00:55:21
Speaker
Color-coding things putting sticky tabs in it's just that that's how I like to I like to have a conversation with the book in that way Totally yeah love it. I'll never I'll never change in that way Yeah, are you someone who likes to write in the margins and mark things up and like kind of make it your own in a way?
Favorite Writing Craft Books
00:55:38
Speaker
Yes. And you know what, it's really embarrassing because i I like I PDF a lot for my students, like I assign books, but then it's also like, Oh, yeah, you need this from like this craft book, like just a few pages here. And it's like, my, my stupid shit is all over it. And so they they they're very sweet. And they make fun of me. They're like,
00:55:58
Speaker
In the recent reading, i I wrote, I underlined and I wrote in the margins, pay attention, Brooke, this is for you. ah snap Like, my God, it's so cringe, but yeah, i it makes me happy to to to write and talk to myself in the margins for sure. What are some craft books or go-to craft books for you?
00:56:20
Speaker
oh Oh, oof, oof, oof. I have so many and like, well, the art of memoir, Mary Carr, that is two Mary Carr references. Yeah, nice. You're welcome, Mary Carr. ah Tell It Slant is a great one for creative nonfiction.
00:56:36
Speaker
ah just Just in general, ah Philip Lopate has one, anyone like ah like that is just sort of general stuff about the essay, and I'm forgetting the Philip Lopate one, but it's he's got a great craft book. Also, Carl Klaus, who spent a lot of time at um Iowa Writers Workshop, has two that I love, two little slim volumes on voice and persona.
00:56:59
Speaker
that are great. Vivian Gornick, Situation in the Story, oh my, you know, I could go on, but like those are, those are just some like top of mind. Situation in the Story is one I taught this semester, um but I think helps.
00:57:12
Speaker
solidify the difference between memoir and essay and really what voice is, what persona is, how to develop it. that it it's it's It's one that I read like once a year because it is it's also slim and it just it's helpful to like get back to that and remember like what is it? How do you create yourself on the page? It's very helpful in that way.
00:57:32
Speaker
I know with a lot of craft books, it can be energizing and inspiring to read them, but oftentimes, this is speaking from personal experience, it can be difficult to actually put it into practice.
Applying Craft Book Advice
00:57:45
Speaker
It feels like writing by reading craft book, oh, I'm wearing all this stuff, but then you when it comes down to brass tacks and sitting in front of the computer and actually writing down the the gross bullshit that's going to come out of your fingertips. You just kind of don't don't do it. any i i meant it maybe Maybe for you, how do you actually put it into practice and and in do yeah'll do the do the work?
00:58:11
Speaker
Yeah, I that's that's really true. I think um it's it it depends on like, for me, like the current writing project and and often like the discrete essay I'm working on and I also am this type of way I know you write like sort of bigger biography books like a big book project and I have not yet I still sort of work in the essay form.
00:58:35
Speaker
um Not that you're not writing essays, but you know what I'm saying, oh yeah like yeah you have a big project. And so I'll have like four or five essays going at once. And they each require a different sort of thing from one of these crafts craft books, like some sort of like, okay, this is what you have to do here. And so I'll, so I mean, just this is not like,
00:58:56
Speaker
revolutionary, or maybe it doesn't even work, but I'll um write like in Sharpie on like one of my big note cards, the some version of pay attention, Brooke, or, or whatever, whatever, like that, that note is like, oh, I, there was one I was working on this, um, this kind of music essay actually about Sinead O'Connor.
00:59:17
Speaker
for this upcoming and anthology that we that Simon Schuster is putting out, Super Excited, um where each writer took a different song from Sinead O'Connor and we sort of wrote wrote around it, like our personal experience behind it, it was really great. But i um the note for that one, I threw it away because I'm done with the essay, but it said something like,
00:59:37
Speaker
just tell the truth, stop being full of shit. like just Something like that. likes the The thing that I needed to guide that thing is like always around me while I'm working on the thing. like in In the office, like floating on my cork board somewhere.
00:59:52
Speaker
so it It's just those little reminders I think are helpful and it it changes and sometimes like in an essay, it'll be like, okay, I've got, I've stopped. I've told the truth. I've stopped being full of shit, but now I just kind of need to like get some kind of organization going. Like I've got to stop being like so crazy with this. So um rein it in Brooke, you know, whatever, whatever it is, you know. Tell me about this cork board. Oh, it is. It's, it's right in front of me. It's ah from I believe Hobby Lobby.
01:00:22
Speaker
It's got all of it's currently got a list of the essays that for one of my book projects that I'm working on highlighted the ones that are that are there. They're highlighted that are finished. um I also have a like a lot of my kids drawings. I told myself like I this is my fucking office like they will not invade. Guess what? They're all over this son of a bitch. And they, but it's great because they like, it's like a reminder, okay, I do have like a life outside of writing. And so my daughter, I just have to say this, she drew this thing, she drew this cat, she's an artist, and she drew this cat that's, I'm i'm looking at it right now with like pen, she did all this in pen, but it's brilliant. She drew this cat that's like raising its paw to press on this red button. And it says something will happen any day now, right?
01:01:13
Speaker
And it's a cat that's put like perpetually pushing this red button. And I was like, that she, I mean, she drew this when she was like six years old. oh god and And I was like, this is for writers. Like, you're just pushing the same button over and over and over again. And you're asking yourself, something will happen any day now, right? It's like she read my soul. So it's actually a good ah good thing to be up in any writer's room. So I want to get that printed someday for all my writer friends.
01:01:43
Speaker
That's amazing. I love that. You'll have to take a picture of that and send that to me. I'd love to see that. ah Yes, yes, I will. Well, here's here's one thing, Brooke, that I want to ask you just as we bring our conversation down for a landing, though though though though I'm
Gaining Fresh Perspectives
01:01:57
Speaker
somewhat sad. I feel like we could talk for five hours, and ah hold ah which only means we'll have to do many more of these in the future. Oh, I love it, yeah.
01:02:05
Speaker
ah But I this is kind of a new question I've been asking people at the very end and it's just a Bit of advice either that you've received from a treasured mentor or just hard-won Advice through you know, 20 years of writing, you know what that what that looks like a best piece of advice You know be it from somebody else or just hard-won, you know, what would what would that be? yeah oh that's so good i thought you were gonna ask me for the recommendation you know i got away from them that is what i studied for that's what i prepared for but that's fine this is good too i'll tell you why i got it went away from that because every single time no one was reading the confirmation notes and i and they're always flat-footed at the end and then they were just kind of like oh uh i was like and i would tell them like why i did send you the confirmation notes you're like oh i didn't look
01:02:53
Speaker
And so I decided to just get away from get away from that, but you can share the recommendation too. And I also got no feedback from that too, like from listeners like that. And no one was just like, oh, that was really cool. I really liked that part of the show. So anyway. You know what? I'm going to do a thing where I combine the two. Like it's ah kind of recommendation slash the hard one advice. I think one thing that has helped me and that I was like going to sort of recommend is to like occasionally, when you can, try shit that is really outside outside of your comfort zone. i hate you but you know like Just to do the thing that you're like, I can't do that.
01:03:36
Speaker
And I think that's just a way to like keep living when I look at like, that's and because like writing is just, it's it's hard and for all the reasons that we've talked about it, it can be so lonely, isolating, why are we doing this, what is the point, all of that stuff. And so as writers, when we can like really be in body in some way and especially a way that you haven't before like challenging yourself to something and I say that but in my recommendation was going to be Zumba. Oh wow. Which which it by the way I i discover everything like 20 years after it's the thing. um I literally went to class week last week and I was like guys have you all heard of Chapel Rhone? Like that's like that's how at this point Chapel Rhone is like you know
01:04:24
Speaker
um globally famous but i had just i never heard her songs before i'm whatever um but when i say zumba i mean insert something that you said you would never do and try that thing because um i did that and it was like a i was like i don't zumba is for like goofy old ladies who don't have rhythm and they look so silly And it it it unlocks something about like learning how my body could move in a different in a different interesting way. um But yeah, just trying new things. And so and I will say this too. um like I teach a class in immersion sometimes. And what I have students do is like having them immerse in their like the things that they like know that they're good at that they like, the piano, whatever. And then that's half of the semester. And the other half of the semester is now they randomly
01:05:18
Speaker
pick from someone else's thing and they have to um immerse in something else. Oh, wow. Learn about it, do it, like do the thing. And so writing from an insider and outsider perspective. And I just it's always whenever I've taught that class, it's a great assignment because it freaks them the fuck out. Like yeah I can't I had a ah young a young gentleman have to do color guard, um which is ah like a you know female sort of like version of Uh, kind of like not dance team. It's like dance team with rifles. I don't really fully understand it. Yeah, it's it's it's it's at football games It's sort of militaristic, but it's also like so he had to do this and it was it was very it was doing things like that That is not expected of you as a way to just like keep going I think i'm so just trying to find a way to surprise yourself By doing new things. Oh and be stubborn as fuck That is my that's my only advice like if you want to write you just have to like just just be stubborn
01:06:14
Speaker
bullheaded as hell. Amazing. Well, Brooke, like I said a moment ago, it's so great to get to talk to you and i yeah ah just about your work and about how you go about the work. so just that Thanks for carving out some time to do this. This is wonderful. well Thank you so much for the invitation. It's absolutely lovely. Such a fan of the pod. Yeah, keep going. I'm looking forward to your book.
01:06:38
Speaker
Go on. Go on. Tell me. Tell me that was bad. That was amazing. Yes. Awesome.
Importance of Feedback in Writing
01:06:45
Speaker
Thanks to Brooke for coming on the show. She's a force, man. I can see her being a co-host of the show if that was a thing. Or a guest who comes on twice a year. Oh, Thank you for listening, seeing efforts. And thanks to the Power of Narrative Conference for promotional support. One last thing. Consider pre-ordering the front runner so my publisher will love me.
01:07:10
Speaker
During this conversation we talked about feedback and it being nice to hear what's good from time to time. The writer's mind is isn't necessarily equipped to handle an unrelenting barrage of criticism. Yes, leveling up weaknesses is how we get better, in one sense. But it's also being told that nebulous term, what's working. ah That also keeps our spirits from cratering. During the writing of The Front Runner, I could probably count on one hand the amount of complimentary feedback I received in that from the manuscript itself. I could probably count it on a Ninja Turtle hand, if you know you know.
01:07:48
Speaker
I'm a pretty insecure dude, I think you know that. um But I'm also not pathologically needy, so I never want to ask that awkward question. So, what do you like? What's working? I'd rather not know than hear someone blather their way through some cloudy explanation, a meandering generality that's really saying the loud part quiet. Then I got to thinking that proof, that the proof,
01:08:17
Speaker
that I'm somewhat decent at what I do is the very fact that I was granted permission to do this in the first place. You know, if ah if a quarterback is drafted in the first round, obviously people believe in him. Like, what more proof do you need? From that point on, it does nobody any favors to pad the ego, when instead we should be developing him to the fullest realization of his abilities.
01:08:39
Speaker
But that said, when you hear criticism and or that's all you hear, it's real easy to get discouraged. It's nice on occasion to hear that you're doing well or hear what you do well. That gives you confidence to know that you're your spin on things is entertaining, be it funny or gripping or lyrical of lyrical is your thing. Personally, I'm not a fan, but you know you do you.
01:09:08
Speaker
I hear that your language is beautiful, if that's like what you're into. To me, I want my writing to kind of ah look like you're staring at Charles Bukowski's face. It's unsettling. It takes so much delusion on the part of the artist to keep at it from time to time. It'd be nice to feel reinforced, but as things level up, as you become more of a pro, it might just be that what goes unsaid is the greatest compliment and the greatest proof of your abilities as a writer.
01:09:38
Speaker
it's just you swim around long enough you're bound to get you know random fish hooks stuck in your mouth or a six pack ring around your neck you just caught on some body parts pulling you down on the bottom of the bottom of the lake you just need to you need people to free you from that shit to give you buoyancy Also, if there're if a publisher is giving you some money to do it, that might be the only compliment you need. you know For me, I need to know from time to time that if you're reading my stuff that you're not bored, like Brooke said, like a tiny LOL, or maybe just a tiny good in the margin. like That's it. That's all I need. That's all it takes.
01:10:25
Speaker
to know that you're not completely deluded. So stay wild, see you in efforts. And if you can't do interview, see ya.