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Episode 178: Elisa Gabbert — Tweet-Size Ideas and Letting Time Do the Work
136 Plays5 years ago
"Time is doing so much work," says Elisa Gabbert, the essayist and poet.
This episode's patron is Bay Path University's MFA in Creative Nonfiction writing.
Follow the show on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook @CNFPod.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah, to me the fact is like if you really care about something and you want to do it, you'll do it.
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:11
Speaker
CNF, greatest podcast in the world, is sponsored by Bay Path University's MFA in Creative Nonfiction Writing. Discover your story, man.
Christine Brooks' MFA Experience
00:00:20
Speaker
Recent graduate Christine Brooks recalls her experience with Bay Path's MFA faculty as being, quote, filled with positive reinforcement and commitment. They have true passion for their work. It shines through with every comment, every edit, and every reading assignment.
00:00:35
Speaker
The instructors are available to answer questions big and small, and it's obvious that their years of experience as writers and teachers have made a faculty that I doubt can be beat anywhere. End of quote. Don't take her word for it, man.
Call to Action: Apply for MFA
00:00:49
Speaker
Apply now at baypath.edu slash MFA. Classes begin January 21st, 1st, 1st.
Writing Coaching by the Host
00:00:58
Speaker
You know who also sponsors this show, right? Me. I can coach up your writing project. Any writing project of yours. Essay or book length. If you need that guy in your corner, just toweling you down, cutting your eye can like cut me, Mick.
00:01:16
Speaker
That's me, man. I can be you. I'd be honored to serve you and your work. I mean that. For real. For realsies. Anyway, how do you like this quote?
Walt Disney's Quote on Action
00:01:28
Speaker
Walt Disney once said, the way to get started is to quit talking and begin riff.
00:01:44
Speaker
But actually, it's a great quote. It's basically saying, less talking, more doing. You've heard thought leaders of our time, like Debbie Millman and Chase Jarvis and Austin Kleon, these three come to mind. And they just so happen to have been on this podcast. Can't believe that. But they have. And they've said that in one way or another, that you make it until you make it.
00:02:09
Speaker
No matter.
Podcast Focus and Guest Introduction
00:02:10
Speaker
Hey, this is CNF, the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, where I talk to badass writers and filmmakers, radio producers about the art and craft of telling true stories so you can get a little bit better. One percent better? Shout out to Joe Ferraro's One Percent Better podcast. At your own work. Elisa Gabbard is here. She's a poet, an essayist. Her collection, the word pretty, is awesome.
00:02:37
Speaker
It's so good. It's short, short pieces, but dense. You know, it's like lead. You know, lead is dense. Study your periodic table. It's a dense element. Anyway, I mean, it's good, good stuff. She's got a new book coming out in August 2020. So damn it. She'll have to come back on the show in a few months, like 10 months or so. Anyway, do me a favor too.
Seth Godin's Provocative Question
00:03:07
Speaker
Go listen to Seth Godin's latest akimbo. I am blanking on the title of it right now. I think it's the enemy of the free market. And pay special attention to the final question in the Q&A at the end of the show. And it's a great question that deals with plateaus. It deals with this idea of always thinking we need more, more, more. More listeners, more readers, more reach.
00:03:36
Speaker
But maybe what we need is more service to those who are so gracious to spend time with us, right?
Serving Existing Listeners
00:03:43
Speaker
Take this show. I shouldn't be so concerned with getting 100 times more subscribers. I mean, it would be nice, right? But then what?
00:03:52
Speaker
I'd rather be of service to you and your work in some capacity. So, in any case, I hope you find value in the show. And if you do, maybe consider hitting me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook.
CNF Pod's Social Media Presence
00:04:05
Speaker
It's all at CNF Pod now. Even on Facebook, they used to be at CNF Podcast. If you just search that, you'll find it. So, if you're feeling kind of kind, leave a nice review on Apple Podcasts as well. 19 to go until we hit 100.
00:04:21
Speaker
I know for a fact there's 19 of you out there who haven't left a rating or a review. Maybe 19 who think they'll get around to it. Anyway I'd love to have it for no other reason than it makes me feel good.
00:04:37
Speaker
I was hoping not to ramble too much this week, but I ended up doing it anyway. Gonna have to deal. Anyway, feel like jamming? Let's go to the garage. Let's do this. Here's episode 178 with the incomparable Alisa Gabbard. Woo!
Elisa Gabbard's Writing Process
00:05:07
Speaker
a writer that you if you could pin them down for an hour and pick their brain, who's the who's someone you would want to be interviewing? Oh, gosh. So they probably have to be alive. Yeah, let's go. The realm of the living. Um, you know, someone who's writing I really love is and I got I, I hate this. I'm not sure I know how to pronounce her name correctly. Maybe you know, is it
00:05:37
Speaker
Elif Batumen? I don't know. You don't know. So it's a Turkish name. And yeah, I've listened to podcasts and interviews that she's done and things so I should know but I just don't know. It's just one of those names that I read a lot and always every time I read it in my head, I realized I don't know how to pronounce that but she writes both nonfiction and fiction. You don't know her work.
00:06:03
Speaker
You know, I'm unfamiliar. Oh, well, you would love her. You would love her. She, her most recent book that I know of, unless I'm behind, I don't think I'm behind, is The Idiot, which is a novel. Okay, I've heard of that. So yeah, I mean, not the Dostoevsky one, obviously. But yeah, that came out a couple of years ago. And that was my favorite book that I read that year. But she also writes really amazing, like kind of long form,
00:06:33
Speaker
essayistic journalism or journalistic essays for The New Yorker among other places. I think that she's really smart and interesting. And I've actually seen her interviewed before too. And she's just like a very fast conversationalist, you know, like her brain just races ahead. And so I feel like you wouldn't even have to ask her anything. You would just say something and she would talk for an hour and it would be really entertaining.
00:06:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's always nice to have that be on the spectrum of interviews and conversations. That's the direction I love when it trends. Yeah, I'm not skilled at interviewing at all.
00:07:16
Speaker
I'm not like a trained journalist. I'm not a journalist. I don't identify as a journalist. But when I do somewhat journalism-like things, I'm very uncomfortable with interviewing people. It makes me super nervous. I've done it before. I've gotten to talk to a couple of astronauts for pieces that I wrote.
00:07:34
Speaker
which super, super awesome. I wish I got to talk to astronauts more often. But most of the time, I would rather just read something and have that be my research than have to talk to somebody. It's funny you bring up the astronauts, because when I was reading the word pretty, I actually, because that was just kind of an aside in one of the essays you wrote. And I was just like, oh, that's really cool. I need to ask her what it was like talking to astronauts, people that would go to freaking outer space.
00:08:03
Speaker
I talked to two different astronauts. One of them, it was for like a profile piece. That was actually one of those situations where I didn't have to say anything really. I would kind of go, mm-hmm, every now and then. But he just told me this amazing story for like two hours, maybe. And it was the story of this time that he like got trapped outside of an airlock.
00:08:27
Speaker
in space. But he started off talking about like the training program and who was actually supposed to go and who ended up going instead. And it was this, oh, it felt almost endlessly long. And it kept seeming like he was losing track of the story. But then
00:08:44
Speaker
He would always come back to where he was. And so it was it was like hard to follow, but amazing. And then I had to type up the transcription afterwards. And it was just so interesting to see how he had spoken in such that like this long meandering way. And he kind of kept like.
00:09:01
Speaker
circling back but anyway back to xyz and then anyway back to xyz like he knew exactly what the story he wanted to tell us but yeah there were so many wild digressions it was totally fascinating
00:09:15
Speaker
And you've written so wonderfully about a wide range of topics, and I wonder what your process is by which you, say, vet out these ideas that you want to pursue in depth, and maybe how you curate those ideas, and then how do you go about sort of attacking them at that point?
Developing Essay Ideas
00:09:39
Speaker
Funnest parts is the funnest word. It is here. The most fun parts, I think, for me is when something starts to come together and I realize I want to write about it. So it's usually like, it starts small. It could be just an idea that, you know, that would fit in a tweet or something. Just an idea that occurs to me. It's something that I like thinking about. And then usually what happens is
00:10:09
Speaker
other sort of tweet size ideas that are related, but not exactly the same, kind of start to accrue and I start to connect them in my mind and realize like, oh, this is like a topic. And I have a lot of different thoughts that are all related to this topic and I really want to write about it. And usually it's very broad. Like I can write pitches, obviously everybody who works in nonfiction has to learn how to write pitches, but
00:10:35
Speaker
I would generally rather not, I would rather have like an editor who likes me and who trusts me, who is willing to just let me go if I say, hey, I really want to write about hair metal or, or I, I really want to write about insomnia, you know, like something very broad like that. But it's just that I have a few ideas.
00:10:59
Speaker
about that subject that like I keep thinking over and over again. And that and the ideas start to feel like sentences that want to be paragraphs. And so when that happens, usually what I'll do is I'll start like a document. Sometimes I'll use a physical notebook, but often I'll start a document on my computer and call it like blah, blah, blah notes, like hair metal notes or insomnia notes.
00:11:24
Speaker
and just start dumping little scraps, those little ideas, those sentences. And often it's like, it starts with a sentence that ends up in the final essay.
00:11:37
Speaker
But so I'm like, I'm trying to get enough of those sentences that I feel like these could anchor an essay. And then I start building them around and by doing research and taking notes from books or watching documentaries, um, just, you know, collecting all kinds of different source material and dumping it all into this, this document. And for me, I would rather do it on, um, and like a word doc versus a physical notebook, because that way I can search it.
00:12:02
Speaker
I can do a little control F and find those important parts that I need to come back to. So yeah, and then I'll do that for often months or longer. There will be things that are just kind of hanging out in the back of my mind where I'm like, I know I wanna write about that, but I don't like to rush it. I always feel like the longer I think about something without actually writing,
00:12:29
Speaker
the piece or the essay, the better it ends up being. So I kind of purposely procrastinate. And I like to sort of write stuff in my notes and then forget about it, forget what I've written so that then when I come back and read through it again, I'm like, Oh, yeah, that like, how am I going to make that fit? I have to use it, but I have to figure out where it's going to go.
00:12:52
Speaker
Well, yeah, you say purposely procrastinate, but it's kind of like procrastinating with purpose, right? So you're kind of like, well, we're going to do some research. We're going to put some fertilizer on this and wait for the right time for this to germinate. So how have you learned over the years to cultivate that sense of patience to let things build? And then it's like, OK, let's open the gate.
00:13:20
Speaker
Well, you know, I'm not a patient person, I don't think.
Patience and Experience in Writing
00:13:24
Speaker
I feel very impatient. I also have done enough pointless, crappy writing that I couldn't use, that I know, like, the impatient writing doesn't serve me. And so, yeah, I've just learned that the longer I sit with something,
00:13:46
Speaker
that the time is doing so much work. My brain is processing all these thoughts and figuring out the structure almost without me even having to try. You know what I mean? I just have to let it happen. But if I try to sit down and write just because I want to have written something and usually
00:14:10
Speaker
usually that impatience is less about writing and more about like, wanting to have something to publish and promote, which, you know, makes me hate myself. But so yeah, I have to just ignore that and know
00:14:25
Speaker
if I'm not ready, it's not going to be good. And usually when I when I am ready, it's the writing itself, like typing the words in a row and putting in the punctuation like that comes so easily and quickly, like I can do it in a day, but the thinking about it for three months has to come first.
00:14:45
Speaker
And when did you know that you had a knack for essay writing or in developing that taste for essays and then wanting to graduate to the point where you were writing these things and writing them well? I think it took a while actually for me to learn how to write longer things because I am a poet. And when I first started writing poetry, even my poems were very short. And I just always felt like
00:15:14
Speaker
it was easier to make something very small that felt complete and artful and like I liked everything about it. And so it has taken me a sort of years of adjusting my process and my practice to learn how to write longer things that I still feel like I like every part of this and I think every part is necessary. And so that's really just been experience. I feel like
00:15:41
Speaker
We don't talk a lot about experience in the writing world, and I'm not sure why. Of course, reading a lot is important, and that's a kind of experience.
00:15:55
Speaker
if you're gonna get hired for a job or something like talent is only worth so much, quote unquote, talent, you know, or intelligence, experience is really important too. You have to have actually done the job for a while to get good at it and to kind of understand all the different sorts of scenarios that might come up, the different kinds of problems and how you might need to solve them. And I feel like that about writing, like it takes years of experience to learn how to do certain things in writing.
00:16:24
Speaker
And as I'm saying this, I'm also kind of like not fully believing myself because sometimes I read things that I wrote 15 years ago and they're like so kind of sloppy in a way, but also great. Like I appreciate their sloppiness and I have less tolerance for my own sloppiness now. I think, you know, I started off writing poems and then I would try to write longer poems. And, you know, I always say that like with nonfiction,
00:16:53
Speaker
you never really have to like learn to write it because you it's just the default mode like if you're in school like I was writing nonfiction all through uh you know from kindergarten till um through grad school I got an MFA and uh so from the ages of like you know five to 25 I was in school continuously and writing nonfiction all the time so um
00:17:18
Speaker
it's prose is just like sort of second nature to me. But it was more in like in my 30s that I started thinking of the essay form as a form that I really enjoyed and wanted to kind of like as a tradition that I wanted to work in. And what I like about it is the way
00:17:42
Speaker
it can contain and all the sort of different things that a poem can contain like, like memoiristic personal type stuff, images, anecdotes, but also ideas and kind of complicated thinking and digression and big lyric leaps. But
00:18:02
Speaker
because you make it a container, it all fits together. The container does a lot of the work. It's like you almost don't have to make the connections explicit because if you're reading them in the same sitting, then the connections are just there. They're totally implicit. So yeah, I've enjoyed
00:18:22
Speaker
figuring out like how much longer I can make a piece of writing while still feeling like it's a single unit and it all fits in this container as much as it might kind of ramble or go off course from where I originally started or thought it would go.
00:18:36
Speaker
In the word pretty, there was one particular essay where you wrote about the, you said the hard thing is judging the right level of writtenness more than you would say, but not all of it. And I kind of love that and how, you know, you have, there's a spectrum there of, you know, you don't want to feel like you're hitting people over the head with a hammer or you're trying too hard, but you do want to give them a sense that you're actually putting in some effort.
00:19:03
Speaker
So how did you arrive at a line like that? And then in your own writing, how do you navigate that continuum? I remember reading... Where did I read this? Actually, I want to say that it's quoted in an essayism by Brian Dillon. Do you know that book? I do not. I'm writing it down now. Yeah, you would love it. It's weird for me to say this, but I do think it's kind of similar to the word pretty.
00:19:34
Speaker
And that it's like, you know, very much about writing and reading and yeah I think I think you would love it but it's about like all the all the kind of moves that SAS make.
00:19:45
Speaker
he just, you know, he just loves the mode of the essay. And it's kind of like an ode to the essay in essay form. But yeah, so I think I read in there that Sontag once wrote in one of her journals about Elizabeth Hardwick, that her prose reads like she deleted every other sentence. And, you know, that sounds like a criticism that she was like, actually, that's a good idea. And I love that idea, because
00:20:15
Speaker
You know, I think a lot of nonfiction is too direct. And it's just so sure of what it thinks and wants to tell you what to think. And I have sometimes kind of had to fight with, not fight, you know, like fisticuffs, but push back against editors who want things to be a little bit more spelled out or clear,
00:20:45
Speaker
the transitions more spelled out. And, you know, I can always see the argument, but I'm also always like, I just don't know if it's necessary. I just, I like the reader to
00:21:03
Speaker
have to do some guesswork or make assumptions but not be completely sure. And I don't always know, you know what I mean? Like, I like a kind of somewhat abrupt transition because sometimes I'm not sure why I'm going to the next thing, but it feels right. And I feel like if you wrote in something forced
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah, it ruins that kind of openness of nobody knows. Nobody knows why this paragraph is next, but it is. Let's go with it. I do appreciate things that feel like slightly more underwritten if the alternative is overwritten. Right. Like there is some noticeable, even if you have to squint your eyes, some restraint, right? Something that I've thought about for
00:21:55
Speaker
years now is this idea of like let's say there's one sentence in an essay that kind of isn't it's not like the thesis statement because I don't I don't really write like thesis driven essays but more like the sentence that most encompasses what the essay is about like the ultimate kind of pull quote sometimes I think
00:22:20
Speaker
If you have a sentence like that, you should take it out because the essay is better without it. Because why say it when the essay is saying it as a whole? And other times, I think.
00:22:31
Speaker
No, it's fine. It should be in there. Because then people can underline it and say, oh, this is the whole point of the essay. But you have to read the whole essay to get the full effect. And I've sort of come to this landing. I don't know if it's a final decision. But currently, I think the essay is doing the work when you can't decide if it's better without that sentence or not, because it's basically just as good either way.
00:23:01
Speaker
And reading that collection, it made me very aware of reading and reading critically. It makes me want to be a better reader and kind of developing that muscle a little more. And I read a lot, but when I read work like yours, I'm like, whoa, I stand to learn a lot by reading a little bit deeper.
00:23:25
Speaker
And so how did you develop that muscle to not only to read things for entertainment, but to read things on such a level of depth and comprehension that you're able to synthesize these wonderful essays?
Annotating Books with Pencils
00:23:40
Speaker
Thank you. That's a great compliment to me. I started reading a little bit late in life with a pencil. And this is going to sound ridiculous, but
00:23:55
Speaker
I used to really hate, and I still hate if it's a bad pencil, the sound of pencil scratching on paper. Like just one of my absolute least favorite sounds. And so, but then when I met my
00:24:10
Speaker
my now husband. He wasn't my husband when I met him. He's also like a great reader and a writer. And he's a pencil person. And he was always, you know, writing in his books and on legal pads or whatever with pencil. And at first I was like, Oh God, that sound is driving me insane. But
00:24:33
Speaker
First of all, we started buying better pencils. Like, there's this great kind of pencil called, there's one sitting here, Palomino Blackwing. Oh, yeah, that's it. You know him? Oh, yeah, I know that pencil really well. And the companion pencil sharpener is a pure joy. Yeah, my husband, John, he carries one pencil sharpener with him everywhere. It amazes people when he pulls him out.
00:25:03
Speaker
Um, but so those are much smoother and nicer and they, and they glide and don't make a scratchy sound. But, um, but I noticed that, you know, he was always like writing in his books, which is something that I never used to do. Um, I was like, well, you know, we're combining our library. A lot of our books are going to have writing in them. So like, what's holding me back? I might as well write in my books too. And I feel like it really changed my life in a way. Um, like,
00:25:31
Speaker
just letting go of trying to keep books perfect, just screwing them up, dog earring the hell out of them and writing all over them and underlining a lot. It really made me feel like just the depth of the reading experience was two or three times as rich and I was remembering more of what I read.
00:25:55
Speaker
And another thing that I started doing just a few years ago is really keeping a list of every book that I finish and writing a little mini review right afterwards. And that also really helps me kind of remember more of what I read. And sometimes some people ask you like, what have you read that's great lately? And you're like, honestly, I can't remember. But like, now I can always go back to my list. But so and I also published that list.
00:26:20
Speaker
at the end of the year. So yeah, and I know that people are going to read it. And so it's like, I really want to say something smart about a book. If I'm going to put it on the list, I don't want to just be like, yeah, it was great or it's kind of boring. I want to like describe a little bit of what it was about. And, you know, I mostly only finished books that I like. So in particular, I want to talk about, you know, why I liked it and why I think other people might like it. And so just the kind of act of describing a book is
00:26:50
Speaker
just really enjoyable to me, you know, like trying to figure out exactly what the other is doing, like what they're trying to do, and then what the end effect actually is, and what the experience of reading it is like, and, you know, kind of what tradition it's in, what else it reminds me of, just all of those things I just I find really pleasurable, and you can't do that unless you're really paying attention. So
00:27:17
Speaker
But yeah, reading with a pencil makes all the difference to me. I use the library a lot, so I have to use those sticky tabs because I don't write in library books. I'm not a complete monster. But that's a lot of it. It's just like coming to the page with that level of attention where you're looking for something to underline or something to come back to. If I'm reading a book and I get through 20-25 pages and I haven't wanted to
00:27:47
Speaker
put a little sticky note or underline anything. Usually I just stop reading because to me it's like, it's just not interesting enough.
00:27:56
Speaker
I love that because I write in my books too and I like to think that even when I have a book that it's kind of like my diary or journal of that book. And sometimes I'll go so far as to use colored pencils too to really call attention to, and a ruler, if I'm at my desk or something and I can lay a ruler down and make it really neat. It's like next level stuff, right?
00:28:23
Speaker
Yeah, that is. But I love that. I kind of divorced myself from this idea that the book had to remain pretty. I'm like, no, like, you know, this thing is, it is officially mine now. And I might as well have a dialogue with the writer if I want to write things in the margins or underline cool things. And it sounds like you're kind of on that sort of plane as well. Yeah, well, and the other thing is that I really very rarely reread full books. Almost never. But I do like to go back and reread like favorite parts or favorite passages.
00:28:53
Speaker
Um, so it just makes it so much easier to find them. If you've littered it with asterisks or, you know, dog year, the pages, um, then I can just go straight to that part that I love and revisit it. And I also love when I have forgotten something about.
00:29:12
Speaker
that I liked about a book. And I opened it and flipped through it and realized like, oh, I made this little guide for my future self in the past. Like now I can just reread these parts that I already know I'll like because my past self liked them. That happened to me recently with a poem that I heard by the translator, not the author. So the translator is Johannes Goranson, the poet Asa Berg.
00:29:38
Speaker
He was in Denver recently and he read this poem from this book called With Deer, which I knew he had at home. And the poem was so great. And I was like, oh, I got to find that.
00:29:47
Speaker
that book and so the next day I pulled it off the shelf and um I opened the book and the poem was already dog-eared but I like I didn't even remember that I didn't remember that that was already like my favorite poem in the book so I loved that like just thanks past self you did me a solid
00:30:11
Speaker
Um, it's great. It's kind of like when you, I like in the, these certain books that you kind of refer to again, like books as mentors, but also like you pull them down off the shelf and it's a lot like pulling your favorite back in the day when there were your records or even CDs, you know, pull it down. And you're like, I feel like listening to this one thing to kind of
00:30:30
Speaker
feel this thing that this thing elicits. So when you know that there's that book on the shelf where you're like, I feel like playing this little track off of Mary Carr's Art of Memoir or Liar's Club, you can pull it down and be like, and put that on the player and then kind of swim in that one thing you want. It's very targeted and very specific to what you're looking for.
00:30:50
Speaker
Mm hmm. And I that's part of why I like reading physical books instead of ebooks is because I always kind of remember where, where physically in the book, my favorite parts are, like, was it on the left hand side of the right hand side, you know, Berto re verso recto. Which, by the way, I never remember which one is verso and which one is recto. You have to look at it every time.
00:31:17
Speaker
or like was it at the top of the page or the bottom of the page? Was it in the first half of the book or the second half of the book? And I've, I got a Kindle for as a gift several years ago, and I tried reading some books on it. But
00:31:33
Speaker
I really missed that feeling of like, I know, I know where I am and the physical object of this book. And I can like, flip back to it and refer back to it and that kind of map like way. And, you know, I'm sure that if you, if you read that way a lot, you get used to it because you can search the book or whatever. But I just like being able to kind of like physically flip to the place that I know it's going to be.
00:31:59
Speaker
I like what you said earlier about, you know, you even write about a book, even if it's a little boring or you give up after 25 pages if something wasn't worth putting a pin in. So that's, how did you sort of learn to do that and not just muscle through a book or even like in your little reviews, like to actually, you know, be critical? Because being critical among peers, it can be challenging for sure.
00:32:29
Speaker
I mean, some of it is just kind of cost-benefit analysis because I don't think of myself as a very fast reader. And I only have so much time to read. So it's like, if I'm reading something that feels like a slog, and then I end up just not reading, I just do other things instead.
00:32:52
Speaker
but like I want to spend that time reading and not like being unhappy. So I think it's just basically the older I get and the more precious time feels. And especially if I can remember like in the recent past reading a book that was blowing my mind and then I start something that's not blowing my mind. I'm like, well, wait, why would I even read a book that doesn't blow my mind? Like there are so many books that I haven't read yet that are like
00:33:20
Speaker
have the capacity to blow my mind. Like I know I'm not going to run out. So like, you know, every now and then if I'm really tired, I'll read like kind of a, I don't want to say a dumb book. That sounds really snobbish and condescending, but like, like just an easy, you know, like, like, you know, they say quaffable wines, like it's just a quaffable book. It just goes down easy and you can read it in like one setting and then it's pretty forgettable. But, um,
00:33:47
Speaker
But like, at least, you know, at least I was reading and not like watching TV, I guess. But yeah, most of the time, I'm like, I want books to blow my mind. Like, that's what I'm looking for. And, you know, and every now and then something that seems like it's just going to be pretty good will all of a sudden, after 40 or 50 pages, get super amazing. And
00:34:09
Speaker
I've had really great experiences with books like that even very recently. But usually I'm just thinking like, okay, 2030 pages in. I'm not that excited. It's just it's just saving my own time to it to abandon it and try something else. But I also I do often
00:34:28
Speaker
kind of put things aside and think I'm not that into this right now, like I'm not in the mood for it right now, but I'm not giving up on it forever necessarily. Because sometimes I think you just have to be at the right point in your life to read a book.
00:34:43
Speaker
And of course, you're alluding to time here as well. And you're someone who's got a full-time job in SEO marketing. And I wonder, what is the routine by which you build in your creative reading and your creative writing around
Balancing Writing with Day Job
00:35:02
Speaker
that? So you're making sure that you're exercising that muscle while you're also pulling in the steady income. I really just reserve as much of my
00:35:13
Speaker
night and weekend time for writing and reading as I can um and part of that is giving up things that I might do more of if I did have more time um I don't have kids um but I mean I honestly think that the biggest time saver for me is like avoiding most other media that's not books like I
00:35:43
Speaker
I've said this on other podcasts and I feel like people hate me for it, but I try not to watch TV. I do watch movies sometimes, but not a lot. And I just mostly spend my like free leisure time reading. And the nice thing about that is that like, even though it's leisure and pleasurable to me, it feeds my other career, which is my writing career.
00:36:13
Speaker
So that works for me. And I mostly do writing on the weekends because I'm too tired after work generally. And I start working pretty early, so I don't tend to like wake up early and work before work. But so I usually use nights for reading and then weekends for writing.
00:36:37
Speaker
How do you ration that energy so you do – you're able to save some of what I would think is you want the best of yourself for the work you're most proud of? And that could be day job too. I get that. I've got mine and everything and I'm threading my freelancing and this podcast around.
00:36:58
Speaker
that as well, but part of me wants to save my most engaged energetic self for this because it's just that much more, you know, it just resonates with me more and I wonder how you, you know, make sure that you're, you know, rationing your energy in the ways that you see fit. Yeah, my day job does actually take up a lot of energy and I think most of it is
00:37:27
Speaker
because I manage a team and I really care about the people that I manage. So I do feel like I have to be present and have to listen. And it's important to me to make sure that they are happy in their work. And I don't feel like there are little pawns in my game. So I do feel like
00:37:55
Speaker
Monday to Friday, I have to kind of put most of my energy towards my job. Um, so I think that's why I, I don't usually try to write on weekdays because that's like, I mean, energy is a, my own personal energy, not oil, but is a renewable resource. Like I wake up with more energy again. So I know I'm going to have it again on Saturday and on Sunday. And so I just sort of try, that's why I try to reserve those days for like,
00:38:25
Speaker
Well, Saturday is going to be writing first and anything else I'll put off until, you know, I'm more tired or tapped out. So, um, if I, like, if I really want to work on something seriously, you know, I do it right when I wake up on Saturday. I don't, um, you know, stick around or run errands or anything first. Like I just get started. So I'm using my best morning energy and my sharp morning brain. Um, and then if there's something that's,
00:38:54
Speaker
kind of more intensive, I'll just take time off. So there was a week this summer. Well, so actually back in like March or April, I had gotten edits on my next my next book that's coming out in 2020. And I didn't I didn't want to just do them a little bit at a time. On the weekends, I wanted to do it like I wanted to really focus and work on it kind of all at once. And so I took
00:39:22
Speaker
a week's vacation. But my vacation was like me sitting at home working on my book edits all week. But, you know, I got to do I got to do it every day, like nine to five, like that was my job and, and really focus and that got all my first and best energy. So yeah, I don't I don't usually feel like I have to do that. I can just kind of use weekends. But if I need to do that, I can.
00:39:48
Speaker
And my wife is the breadwinner and the insurance procurer of our pairing. And there is pressure involved with that. And sometimes it's a heavy weight for her to bear, because I'm the one who's a bit more fluid, even though I have my steady things. But if we lost hers, it would be devastating.
00:40:14
Speaker
And I wonder for you how you navigate the pressure of that, because I know it's heavy on my wife, and I wonder what it's like for you. Yeah, so maybe you know that I am also the primary breadwinner, and my job secures both mine and my husband's insurance. So I guess there's some pressure there just in the sense that
00:40:44
Speaker
I'm not comfortable with a lot of risk when it comes to my primary source of income and any other money I make from writing or whatever always just feels like a nice bonus.
00:41:00
Speaker
I've never gotten to a point where I felt like, Oh, maybe I could just make it work freelance. If I devoted all my time to that, I just, I'm not comfortable with the like, maybe I can make it work. I don't, I don't want to mess around with the maybe a part of the equation. Like my job is really stable. I've been at the same company for 10 years. And, um, yeah, I just, I like having
00:41:27
Speaker
that sense of stability and just knowing exactly when my next paycheck is coming. And for me, I think that security balances any sort of regret I might have about not being able to kind of mess around and try to make it work just through writing alone. So I guess that's a burden, but it's also like,
00:41:55
Speaker
I really like the stability and when I'm, you know, on Twitter and seeing that, you know, another like magazine has been shut down and a bunch of great writers and journalists and editors or whatever, all suddenly out of work and looking for something new. Um, it just seems horrifying, like just to live with that level of anxiety and uncertainty all the time. Um, it would be really, really hard for me. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:25
Speaker
like, sometimes I think responsibility is freeing in a weird way, you know, like, it gives me meaning and purpose. So I mean, I do still sometimes wake up and be like, wait, why do we do anything? But, but like, remembering, like, oh, I work 40 hours a week at this hard demanding job, because, you know, partly because it enables me to, like,
00:42:54
Speaker
take care of, you know, I think of it as my family. It's just it's just me and my husband. Like I said, we don't have kids, but it's like it enables me to take care of my family and that that is meaningful having that kind of sense of purpose.
Finding Meaning in Stability
00:43:07
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, for sure. Do you like I know just personally sometimes in the journalism world and then looking up at the looking up at the bookshelf or whatever and you see these people you admire up there and maybe you're not catching the whole
00:43:23
Speaker
the whole story you're seeing this kind of blow-dried veneer but I but with sometimes I was talking with the great essayist and author Stephen Moore a couple hours ago and similarly he's got you know his nine to five and then he's threading this great writing around that and likewise so are you and I asked him like do you sometimes feel
00:43:47
Speaker
And I'm only I'm projecting so I'm asking this is something I feel and I like to ask other people that you feel like less maybe less of a writer because it's not like your sole vocation. Do you feel any less of an artist or do you or you're able to like divorce it be like no I'm every bit of writer here even though it's not my sort of primary mode of income. Yeah, I I don't ever feel that I can see why some people do but
00:44:15
Speaker
I mean, as I mentioned, I already kind of have this outlook that like you need to not be writing some of the time to be a good writer. I mean, and I don't want to actually project that on to like, oh, I think all writers must or should do that. I mean, some people maybe write every day and it's all genius or they prefer to write every day and like, and then slash and burn and cut stuff. But for me, like I said, I kind of prefer to wait
00:44:44
Speaker
until I know I can produce something good. So I feel like I would have all this dead time anyway. And I don't know how I would fill it. I guess maybe I would read more, learn how to rock climb. I'm sure I would find meaningful stuff to do if I was independently wealthy.
00:45:10
Speaker
But yeah, one thing it doesn't do is make me feel like less of a writer and people, even when I feel like a little bit frustrated or like things are moving slow or I haven't had a chance to write in a while or anything like that, like someone will always tell me like, you're very prolific. And so, and then when I think back like, oh yeah, I mean,
00:45:35
Speaker
I'm writing, I'm writing stuff. Like it's not like I can't do it around the job. And yeah, to me, the fact is like, if you really care about something and you want to do it, you'll do it. And that's true for people I know who, you know, have chronic illnesses or they do have kids and, but they also still work. Like they find, they find ways to do it. So I can, I can see why some people can feel like less of a writer, but
00:46:06
Speaker
I don't. And I also, another thing that I like about it is that I don't feel like I have to write stuff I don't want to write just for the money. Yeah. So I really, I really only write stuff that I want to write and it's awesome if I get paid for it. But, um, you know, sometimes I, sometimes I write stuff for very little money and it's still very rewarding to me.
00:46:29
Speaker
And speaking of things that you want to write, of course, your hair metal essay in Paris Review is just like so great.
Writing about 80s Hair Metal
00:46:38
Speaker
And I love it because I grew up on not hair metal, but metal. So I love that kind of power chords and double bass are just in my blood.
00:46:49
Speaker
And so I'm a big metal guy. The intro music to my artsy podcast is heavy metal. So in any case, it's like, so how did you arrive at wanting to write about this 80s hair metal and this really fun and this great essay that kind of harkens back to your childhood in a lot of ways? Yeah, thank you.
00:47:13
Speaker
It was so fun to work on that because I could just consume total garbage and like call it research. I was literally just searching YouTube for like a hermetical documentaries and just any old garbage BH1 special or just like, you know, clips of interviews with poison or something. Like,
00:47:38
Speaker
it felt like, oh, but this is, you know, I'm working on something. It was great. But yeah, it's just something that I just found myself thinking about a lot. In particular, like the patience video, you know, there's a whole kind of
00:47:59
Speaker
there's a whole kind of movement in that piece about the patience video. It's just something that I watch so much and like think about a lot. Like I say, I say in the essay, but for those who haven't read it, like I literally watch it like at least once a week, maybe more before bed. It's just sort of this self soothing activity. But there's always like stuff to think about. It's just it's like this rich short film and
00:48:29
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I first saw it when I was a young, young child. And so to continue to watch it over and over throughout my life and like becoming at it from all these different ages and with different perspectives and knowing more about those people and where they are now, like it just continues to be like really rich and interesting to me. I know it sounds crazy, like what?
00:48:54
Speaker
What? Like, but it is. The patience video is really rich and interesting to me. And it's like intertextual, you know, because there's this part where like Axel's watching TV and then welcome to the jungle videos on the TV. And I'm so interested in that, like, the way his video is referring to another one of his videos. I just think that's amazing. So it's just it's something that I think about a lot. And I wanted to write about it because I felt like it could be really fun.
00:49:25
Speaker
But I, but I still had like serious things to say about it. And, you know, I feel like nostalgia is just one of those perennial essay topics, like, you know, everybody's got to write about nostalgia. But it gave me instead of just thinking like, Oh, I want to write about nostalgia, it gave me something more specific to latch on to that I could research and like, talk about nostalgia through. So yeah, I don't know, it felt like
00:49:56
Speaker
like a gift in the sense that like, you know, I have a great editor at the Paris Review who was like, I was like, I don't think this is their kind of thing. But she was like, actually, I love that idea. Let's do it. So she just let me write about it, which is like, you know, that's the dream.
00:50:14
Speaker
When you pitched your editor this idea, was it kind of one of those deals? It wasn't very much of a formal query. It was more like, hey, I kind of want to write about nostalgia through the lens of hair metal. Yeah. So actually she had reached out to me and said like, oh, we haven't worked together in a while. I miss working with you.
00:50:35
Speaker
Do you have any things floating around? And I was like, you know, I, because I almost did, I had almost sent her this pitch. And I was just like, that's ridiculous. She's not going to be interested in that. That's not quite right. But she was like, actually, I'm totally interested in that. And she didn't even ask any questions. Like, she was just like, yeah, go. Like, write about hair metal. Get back to me. Well, I think the, I think I said, I almost sent you a pitch about how I can't stop watching hair metal documentaries. So it was like a little bit more specific than just the two words, hair metal.
00:51:06
Speaker
Um, but yeah, she let me write about that, which was amazing. And, you know, I think it's part of this. Kind of, it was almost my new year's resolution. I feel like that's going a little bit far, but I have a friend named Catherine Nichols, who's also a writer. She's really good. Um, who kind of thinks in terms of like, what are your goals for the year? What do you want to do this year that you didn't do last year? She like asked questions like that. The kinds of kinds of things that I never used to ask myself.
00:51:35
Speaker
And when she asked me that at the end of last year, like, what do you want to do next year? That's new and different. Like, what do you want to learn? What do you want to change about your life? I was like, well, I just finished writing this book about like disasters and the end of the world. So I think I really want to write about like fun things. Like I was like, I just kind of want to get back to like reading novels and writing about novels instead of like Chernobyl and and like things that
00:52:05
Speaker
are fun for me to research. I mean, I, I think all research is fun, but like not, not also like disturbing and kind of give me nightmares. So yeah, like most of the stuff I've written this year has been like, you know, I wrote a lot of poetry reviews or, um, I wrote about like Frankenstein. Um, but yeah, so like hair metal was kind of like the culmination of that. Like, I was just like, let's just, this is especially the theme of birther. I'm just really gonna write about
00:52:35
Speaker
the garbage of my youth and how much it still means to me.
00:52:39
Speaker
When you're in the throes of a writing project, say the hair metal piece, when you get to say that ugly middle part of a draft where you're kind of too far away from home, so the honeymoon period is kind of worn off, but you're really far away and you have no choice but to sort of forge ahead, how do you kind of navigate the ugly middle of a draft when you might not, when you're maybe losing some energy to finish the thing?
00:53:08
Speaker
You know, that doesn't really happen to me. I really love the writing part. And the middle to me is the most fun part. Sometimes just starting the first paragraph is kind of like... I feel like it takes me a lot longer to write the first few paragraphs than it does to write the next 3000 words. Partly because I'm just trying to figure out
00:53:40
Speaker
exactly what kind of tone or mood I want to set. And that's so important, I think, in an essay, like the first paragraph has to start creating a mood. And when I'm like, on an essay I read, it's usually because I feel like this is just this isn't creating a mood. That's your job and you're not doing it. So that I think is difficult. But I want to like
00:54:08
Speaker
into it already feeling like I'm doing this, I'm orchestrating this mood. But once I feel like I've started to establish it, then I can just totally get into a flow state where I'll just write and write and write and write for hours and I'm really into it. So I think it's actually, it's funny that you said the ugly middle. I do feel like the trickier parts for me are the very beginning and the very end.
00:54:34
Speaker
So often what'll happen when I'm writing a piece is like I'll get to almost the very end and then I'm like, uh, I'm not quite sure how I want to close this. And so I'll often stop for a day or two and I'll have to come back and write an ending like when I'm, um,
00:54:55
Speaker
rested and can see clearly again. And I've then read through the whole essay several more times, making small changes, and then I'll see an ending. That's usually the trickier part for me. But even then it's like, I don't find that super painful because I know I'll think of something. I know I just need a little more time.
00:55:17
Speaker
Over the course of a week, are you kind of snowballing ideas that you want, or little writing to-do lists over the course of the week, so when you hit that Saturday and Sunday, you're like, you've got this big list of things you've been waiting to do and waiting to tackle all week? I don't write every weekend, because...
00:55:43
Speaker
Yeah, I just don't have that much to write. But when I am planning to write something, usually I will do a very quick and dirty outline. And it's just the sloppiest thing. Because usually what happens is when I'm ready to write, the structure is in my mind, for the most part. And the details are going to change. But I know generally where I want to start, then where I want to go next, and then next, and then next, and where I want to close.
00:56:13
Speaker
So we'll just type out real fast like wallets in my mind, start here, then there, then there, then there, then there, then there, then there, then there, then there, just super sloppy. And then as I'm writing sometimes, if it's like, you know, this is usually only required for kind of longer pieces, but if I'm, if I feel like I,
00:56:33
Speaker
I'm getting ahead, like my brain is going faster than I can write. You know what I mean? I'll kind of, I'll be like, okay, I'll do the same thing for the next section, but I'll type out like a paragraph version of the next section that I want to do. And then I'll kind of like expand each sentence and that paragraph into a full paragraph or two. And so like that'll kind of build out, I think of them as like movements because
00:57:04
Speaker
I don't always like sections, like essays to have sections per se, meaning, you know, there's like a break, which just, it's kind of one of those underwritten, overwritten things, like what we were talking about earlier, I sometimes feel like it's like over signaling to the reader, what they're supposed to think or feel like telling them, oh, you need to pause here. That's like, well,
00:57:30
Speaker
fuck you. Can I say fuck you on your podcast? Like, I'll decide. I'll decide. As a reader, I'll decide where to pause and stop and think. But and then as a writer, I kind of feel like I like the effect of not letting you pause. Just like forcing you to keep reading right ahead, even if
00:57:53
Speaker
you know, maybe there's going to be a big leap with no transition, like, oh, but sorry, you don't get a break. You just have to come right into the next paragraph. So anyway, the reason I said that is because sometimes I think of them as like movements, like, like, it's, it's kind of a, you know, like in a musical piece. It's like, it's a part of the essay that I think of as a unit, but I'm not, I don't want to signal too overtly to the reader that like, I think of it that way. It's just in my mind.
00:58:18
Speaker
What would you say you're better at today than you were, let's say, five years ago?
Raising Writing Standards
00:58:25
Speaker
I think I'm better at self-editing in the sense of like, so there, you know, there are certain things that almost all editors dislike, like,
00:58:35
Speaker
parentheses for the most part, especially if it's like a totally off the cuff aside. But I love asides and I love digressions. So knowing that I might have to argue with an editor about a digression, I'm really choosy about what I decide to put in parentheses or as an aside. So
00:58:58
Speaker
Like I get to a point, cause I used to just kind of be like, well, I know an editor is going to cut this, but I'll leave it in anyway. Um, and then, you know, usually be a continent. I wouldn't mind that much cause I wasn't surprised, but now I feel like I'll really think about it. I'm like, well. What I, if I know an editor is going to cut it and I won't care if it gets cut, like why do I have it in there? You know what I mean? So like I've raised my own standards for sides to the point where it's like.
00:59:27
Speaker
well, maybe I should only do an aside if I would fight for it. So, and that's, again, that's a sort of an experience thing because like, I sort of came to that rule because I had to work with more editors over time. And so I had, you know, this is like, or editor in my mind that I'm always imagining what I'm writing. And so I think it's made me kind of, yeah, just raise my own standards for myself to the point where, you know, I feel like,
00:59:53
Speaker
I want everything in an essay, I want almost everything in a draft that I turn in to be something that, if not fight for, that I would at least consider fighting for. Sometimes something gets cut and I'm like, yeah, that's fine, whatever. But I just try to anticipate edits and come up with an argument ahead of time to convince myself why they need to be there.
01:00:22
Speaker
So I guess that just adds like an extra level of intentionality behind everything. And that comes down to even just like punctuation choices. Like if somebody wanted to change this dash to a semicolon or whatever, like I want to kind of know in my mind why I did what I did so I can back up my decision if I need to.
01:00:51
Speaker
Never gets old, does it? Doesn't for me. I mean, sometimes the grind of putting a show together gets old, but not the actual conversation. Not having done it. Not having it together and out there in the world. Thanks to Elisa for...
01:01:10
Speaker
just coming on and coming to the garage to jam. I mean it's not really a garage and it's not really a band but you get it. Anyway in any case thanks also to Bay Path for the support for help making the show possible. You can pre-order Elise's new book now. I think pre-ordering now I think like one pre-order is probably like the equivalent of buying five
01:01:33
Speaker
I think it's more important now to do that. So if you love her work, if you liked what she had to say about it, support her work, go show her some pre-love and pre-order the book. Be sure to head over to BrendanOmero.com for show notes and to sign up for the CNF and monthly newsletter reading recommendations podcast. And it's all free. Free.
01:01:58
Speaker
Once a month, no spam can't beat it. Are we done for the week? It's been a grind of a week, man. Oh, and I'm working on a thing. But it makes me think that if you can do interviews, see ya.