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Return of the...Sing?! Let's discuss Return of the King (1980)!
205 Plays1 year ago
It's been 20 years since Peter Jackson's Return of the King debuted on screens. So what better way to celebrate than to watch the definitive edition...the Rankin/Bass one.
Join Satsu and Craig C as they discuss life's greatest questions. Why is Gollum a fish man? Why does Frodo keep insisting that we die well? And what's the deal with plump Hobbit wives? All this and more in this episode!
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
One podcast to record them all. One podcast to promote them. One podcast to publish them all. And the darkness subscribed to them. In the land of Zencast- Andrew, what are you doing? Um, nothing. Ah, full of a podcaster. Welcome to World of the Next Month.
00:00:23
Speaker
Hallo everybody and welcome to the third episode of the Lord of the Rings month. My name's Sataname and joining me today, well I could do a normal intro but you know what, I somehow feel a song coming on. So joining me today is none other than Craigie of the third letter of the alphabet. It is none other than the one and only Craigie C. Craigie C, welcome.
00:00:54
Speaker
Thank you for the warmest welcome I've ever had into the end of an episode.
00:01:01
Speaker
Thank you very much. How are you doing today? Much better, I haven't heard that. How are you? Not too bad. Well, I say that, but I have just watched this
Reflecting on Return of the King's 20th Anniversary
00:01:10
Speaker
film. So, you know, ups and downs. Spoilers for the rest of the episode. So, as many of you out there know, it is, at least in this year of 2023, it is the 20th anniversary of Return of the King.
00:01:25
Speaker
So we thought, what can we do? Will we dedicate a full episode to Peter Jackson's return to the King? No, no, no, no. We had an episode like that at the start of the month. Will we review the book? No, no, no, no, no,
Reviewing the Rankin-Bass Animated Film
00:01:37
Speaker
no, no. No, we hate ourselves too much. So we decided to go even further back in time to the 1980s where we are going to be reviewing today the Rankin-Bass album of the 1980s. It's a film.
00:01:52
Speaker
I don't even know how to explain it. I think we should start with the context because this is weird in itself. So there was a film in 1978 of The Hobbit, an animated film. I watched all three of these films back to back. There's a trilogy of animated films. I was reading back to back and I'm going to pretend it was to be on this podcast episode but should be told I just wanted to watch them. So 1977-78 was the
00:02:15
Speaker
Hobbit comes out and then a completely different studio or completely different director anyway makes a Lord of the Rings which is actually completely different so the first one's very childish very similar to this Return of the King and then they did this Lord of the Rings animated which is actually like really good maybe it's not really good but it's really key close to the books and it's only really because we live in like that post Peter Jackson world that we have so many funnies with it so then Rankin and Bass went back to make the next Lord of the Rings so when it was no point I was starting
00:02:43
Speaker
the fellowship someone just did it so we're gonna skip all the way to Return of the King. So it's a fascinating trilogy of weirdness because they're not even related. It is so bizarre, see for a film series that is surprisingly at the time it's famous for being unfilmable and I'm not gonna lie, I feel as if this just fuels the fire
00:03:06
Speaker
of that argument at the time because this film, and slight spoilers to how I feel about this film, this film feels like, you know if you're into sci-fi films, fantasy films, right? And you've got like a relative or a friend who really hates fantasy films. This is what fantasy films are to them. That's the only way I can describe it. It's like there's so much going on. There's just a wealth of content and none of it makes sense. It's like someone said, okay, we need a wizard.
00:03:36
Speaker
a couple of short people. What else? Oh, we need a demon. Oh, the quest. Let's just shove it together. And you know, there's no regard for, oh yeah, it's Lord of the Rings. They don't care. You know, they don't care as Lord of the Rings. As you said, it's a really surprising because so many people for some weird reason wanted to adapt Lord of the Rings, but they wanted to do it in their vision. The Beatles for some reason wanted to do an adaptation, fortunately.
Behind the Scenes: Voice Actors and 'Theodore'
00:04:03
Speaker
Unfortunately, we were robbed of that.
00:04:05
Speaker
Yeah they had that and as you said you had the Hobbit 1977 film and then you had the Ralph Bakshi one which came out after that which was like the kind of rotoscopes one. Which included the voice acting talents of John Hurt. Oh yeah I forgot about that. And Anthony Daniels, don't know why we're not watching that film. I bet you can't name one person that's voice acted in this one.
00:04:31
Speaker
I went and looked and most of them have a 404 page not found on Wikipedia. No, no, Theodore doesn't count okay. So at the very beginning of the film they do that, you know that thing they used to do in the older films where they have the credits at the beginning as well as the end and there's this thing where it's like starring in alphabetical order and you know you're like right okay that's fair enough that's how they do it.
00:04:55
Speaker
Starring an alphabetical order. There's just a guy called Theodore. Everyone has a Christian name, a surname. This guy is just straight up called Theodore. How are you supposed to find him? What type of Theodore? Who is this man called Theodore? It was when you were saying about where the film starts. I kind of thought you were going to mention how it was paying homage to Quentin Tarantino when the film starts at the end. Oh yeah, you know what? See, without any further ado, let's
Diverse Topics in Chatanami Podcast Series
00:05:23
Speaker
get into it.
00:05:23
Speaker
Welcome to Chatanami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and journal interests. Previously on Chatanami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:05:42
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all the podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:06:05
Speaker
Hello, dear listeners. Mama Dee here, ready to share my wisdom and offer a listening ear. Life can be tough, but remember you're
Spotlight on Mama Dee
00:06:12
Speaker
never alone. On pedals of support, I'll be your virtual mom, providing guidance and support when you need it most. Join me each week as we explore topics close to your heart. From self-care and personal growth to parenting and finding inner peace, we'll embrace every aspect of life's journey together. Let my voice wrap around you like a warm hug
00:06:34
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reminding you that you are capable, loved, and cherished. Remember, my dear petals, you are stronger than you know. Together, we'll navigate life's garden one bloom at a time. I'm Mama Dee, and this is Petals of Support. Let's grow, learn, and flourish together.
Zencastr Advertisement and Benefits
00:06:52
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00:07:38
Speaker
So that's foul.
00:07:41
Speaker
This film, you can't see it. I've got my hands together, almost like I'm praying. Let me tell you, I was a man of faith before I came into this film. My faith was thoroughly shaken after it. But yeah, the film starts at the very end where we know that everybody's fine and they're all having a party at Rivendell. People might be asking out there, what's Rivendell? What's this? What's a hobbit? You know what?
Character Design Critiques
00:08:05
Speaker
The film doesn't explain it. And unless you're a Lord of the Rings fan, you're not going to know.
00:08:09
Speaker
good to know. So, yeah, we got to Riverdale, where Elrond, who's looking like Rasputin, Gandalf does look like Gandalf, the big nose and the robes and everything. You know, how my wizard looks? I don't know how he looks like that. You've got Mary and Pippin, which as I told you in extensive length, look like the traditional M&M characters. You know, the Red M&M and the Peanut M&M. Because for some reason, Pippin is the only one who has like a squashed
00:08:35
Speaker
speeds. None of the other Hobbits have squish races. He is the only one that looks like he's been too curious beside one of those. What do you call those? You're the presses. A hydraulic press. Not even a hydraulic press, but you know what? Let's go with that. It might as well, because that's what it looks like. Granted, they're celebrating Delbo's birthday. He's hundred and something. I can't remember. It's a hundred twenty-nine. Hundred and something. Hold on. A hundred twenty-nine, yeah. It's a hundred twenty-nine.
00:09:01
Speaker
Thank God. The fans are putting down the pitchfork slowly. I'm not going to lie to you, I don't think this was in the actual books, this the birthday party at the end, so I wouldn't stress it too much. Anyway, I counted the candles. Can I just say the cake is absolutely banging. The cake you actually get, it's like a kind of spiral up of candles and you just look at it, you think that is a cool birthday cake. That's probably the coolest thing in this film. I'm just saying a lot about Lord of the Rings.
00:09:27
Speaker
So yeah, they end up outsourcing their story because usually you would start with, you know, a very wise age figure, you know, like Gandalf or Eldon saying, and we took the ring tomorrow and, you know, counting it in a very revered way or something. No, no, no, no. They just get some chump, some stranger out of Gondor and they're like, yeah, minstrel, go sing. Go sing about stuff you weren't there for.
00:09:54
Speaker
Now I have to, I do have to bring you back in a lot of your books because you're skipping some important dialogue. So what happened? The way they get onto the story is, Bilbo's old and confused and he doesn't understand where his magic ring's gone and he looks over at Frodo and goes, Frodo why do you only have nine fingers?
00:10:20
Speaker
It's such a non-shot one. Wait, he does it though. Frodo, where's your- where's your- Frodo, why are you bleeding?
00:10:27
Speaker
What bothers me is the first song that the minstrel then busts into is called Frodo. They list the two most famous things about Frodo, which is he destroyed the ring and he only has nine fingers and it seems like a lot of disrespect. He saved the world. And you're like, do you know the most famous things
Songs and Themes: Hit or Miss?
00:10:45
Speaker
about you? The fact you lost a finger. The hobbits, they're like farmer people. The chances are there's a lot of them that have lost fingers. But it'd be like the second biggest thing that they focus on is a bit mean. That just shows he's got no personality.
00:10:57
Speaker
Oh, I would love it if there was like another hobbit who, I don't know, he was chopping stuff for sandwiches or something. And he always does a finger through some tragic accident. And you know, is he going to be held to the same standard as Frodo? Right? And my other thing is like, if that was me right and I saved the world and people were like, it's crazy to see the guy that saved the world and has nine fingers, I'd be like, I've done a lot of things. Could you not be like, Destroyer of the Ring and also Lego Builder of the Month when he was six? Quite nine fingers!
00:11:28
Speaker
I just remembered the song that they follow on from that. They go from Frodo of the Nine Fingers, ha ha, you will never play guitar, you do the same again. And they go from that to the It's So Easy Not To Try as your credits start to roll. And I don't know if this is foreshadowing or, you know, of course we get Theodore. I know I'm fixated on this, but everyone has two names. Is he in witness protection after this one?
00:11:55
Speaker
He's like, I need to protect my anonymity from the talking society. It's like, you know those people that they're so ashamed of something that they use a fake name or something? Like, did this guy see Alvin and the chipmunks and was like, yeah, call me Theodore. I don't want any association with this, please. We will get into the other songs later, right, enough. But the one thing I have to bring up is the fact that these songs, and I hate to say it, but they're all bangers.
00:12:25
Speaker
as much as I'm going to rag on these songs. They are bangers. They're certified bangers. They are bops. Whatever adjective you want to put in. The minstrel I'm going to do is earn in his keep. He's earning his coin here.
00:12:40
Speaker
So the minstrel's tale starts and what they realised was we made a Hobbit movie, we didn't make a Lord of the Rings movie, we made a Return of the King movie and so what they do is they really quickly try to recap the plot of the Hobbit in the first two books but leave it a whole bunch of stuff and that got me wondering because something you pointed out which is really kind of stuck in my head which was Gandalf doesn't
00:12:59
Speaker
white look like Gandalf the White, he's wearing grey, he's got a white beard but he had a white beard and a hobbit and so it's like did that Gandalf not fight the Balrog? Like how much of the film actually happens to lead up to this film if that makes sense? Because they just skim over a whole bunch of stuff because like Bilbo got the ring and they just reuse a whole bunch of footage from the hobbit movie and they go Frodo had to go on an adventure and now we're here.
00:13:19
Speaker
There's so much
Plot Pacing and Omissions
00:13:20
Speaker
skit. Even if you're taking the Animated Lord of the Rings film, which stops roughly at the same spot, the Two Towers movie does, but it doesn't have the hints, none of that's in it. And then there's also skips like the Fight with She-Lob and stuff like that. So it's like, even within if you just watched the two films back to back, there is such a massive gap of what's going on. This film does not do a good job of telling its story.
00:13:43
Speaker
I'm just gonna say it now. We literally start at the end of the film. They say, Frodo, why don't you have an evil ring of power and why are you missing a finger? Nobody has a slice of cake. There's two hobbits that look like M&Ms in the corner. Elrond, as I said, he looks like Rasputin. Gandalf's just Gandalf, you know, I can't really fault him other than the fact.
00:14:06
Speaker
You know that crying cat meme? I just throw the thumbs up. He's like, you're the only one here I know. And even then, I think you know Gandalf the White. Why are you Gandalf the Grey? As you said, they skip over so much. I feel as if it ends where, and I don't know why they end on this, but it's like, oh yeah, let me recap this tale and then end with our protagonist beaten and half naked in front of a pile of orcs. And I was just like,
00:14:35
Speaker
I'm going to have to close the curtains like this is really. Between that and the fact that Sam starts off the adventure with Mind if I read from the source material where he's looking for, I think he's looking for
00:14:51
Speaker
even know what he's looking for but he comes across the ring just by chance and the ring's calling out to him doing ring things and then he says this word which even in the 1980s you know when you think of the 50s or the 60s and they say something and you're like oh that does not hold up well today but at the same time it made something completely different back then. The sentence and dear listeners please play along at home
00:15:14
Speaker
The sentence you're not CVI takes over. I hope it doesn't take the sentence out of context. He says, oh, I can feel you throbbing with excitement. 1980s, the 1980s. I'm sorry, that wasn't acceptable. What I'm saying is rank and bass do better, OK?
00:15:33
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's how it starts. And then he has like... He has a power fantasy? Yeah, he has a power flip. This is the thing, they cut out so much of the film and yet they have this whole five minute side tangent where he has a cabbage patch child riding a wooden horse and he becomes this
00:15:51
Speaker
Dictator Warlord. And this is a long segment, it's like a five minute, and it's right at the start of the film, pacing be damned, we need to know all about Sam's wacky fantasies. This could have been Sheila, like I hate it, I hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but this could have been a fight with a giant spider. The bearer of bad news. The bearer of bad news. This is what I actually said to you while I was watching this. All the songs so far are Bob's, Sam just like Kyle Ken.
00:16:19
Speaker
Now I'm turning into a maniacal gardener, it's great. And then I set a screenshot of his devil child with no whites of his eyes. It's just like full on black eyes as if he's possessed. Why is there a Cabbage Patch child in World of the Rings? I want to quickly bring this up because you mentioned it there. Whenever the character has the ring
00:16:37
Speaker
of power and this happens a couple of times. They don't go invisible, well they do at one point, but it also seems to unlock something that looks like the Kaio-ken and they never explain what it is or what it does or why. But yeah, everyone gets like a weird power boost when they hold it in their hand. I know that was what the Ring of Power is and obviously the source material. That it was a ring that gave you power and everything but
00:17:00
Speaker
Yeah, at least maybe this is like the Peter Jackson effect where everybody who put on the ring that wasn't Sauron went invisible, because that's what you associate with it. But even in the Hobbit, he went invisible. From what I understand, the way it works is the stronger a person, the bigger the effect the ring would be. So if Gandalf put it on, it would be like crazy stuff. So that's fine, but just to explain what it is, he's just got this threatening dojo aura all of a sudden that it's just a bit wacky. A bit wacky.
00:17:28
Speaker
There's a whole bit more than walking to himself on the side of Mount Doom. And nobody hears this. Was everyone just like, nah, nah. Couldn't be a hobbit. Couldn't be a hobbit. He jumped, that was like a hobbit. Nah, couldn't be a hobbit though. What'd you want to bet? Last of the meat on the menu? Nah, nah. It was heavier. The burden of
00:17:51
Speaker
same way. And there's a lot of mispronunciation in this level. And some of the stuff you think, okay, there's some terminology that you think, okay, maybe they'd get it right or wrong, but why do
00:18:06
Speaker
they call Minas Tirith a Minas Tirith?
Mispronunciation and Skipped Battles
00:18:09
Speaker
This one's interesting too because there was audio recordings of Tolkien, which you can find on mine now, obviously it was hard to find back then, but there is audio recordings of him saying these things, so there's no excuse for this. He called it Minas Tirith. So why did these people make the films with? I know we know better, it's Minas. And there's quite a few of them. You know that I think it's just one of those things you just kind of have to accept with any film from the 80s when it comes to books and stuff. These have to accept, they're just going to take little shortcuts like that.
00:18:33
Speaker
speaking of shortcuts, as we said before, they skipped so much out of this hole. And they put in the most unnecessary stuff. And I sent you a message saying, did they just skip past the battle? And I'm assuming that is the Battle of Gondor, because for some reason Gandalf's doing his own thing. And then all of a sudden him and Pippin are talking to Denethor, who is the steward of
00:18:56
Speaker
Gondor and he's saying, oh, you have to, I don't know, fantasy BS. Oh, you have to do this. You have to do that. And he's like, my evil ball tells me what to do. And then literally the next scene, it's like Demathor died.
00:19:12
Speaker
No! Wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. Backtrack here. So you're telling me you couldn't even have a five-second thing to show him collapsing? I don't know. I would take, oh, he took a heart attack, or he slipped in a rogue tomato, or, hell, I'll self-insert myself in stabbing myself. You're telling me the kid didn't have added five seconds, but we get like a five-minute side tangent of Sam becoming a warlord and having fake children.
00:19:40
Speaker
If we're going to go into things that have been skipped, there's no Legoland or Jim Lee. Both of those guys are gone. Right. So they're both gone. An Aragon doesn't turn up in the film. The guy that is the king that is returning doesn't turn up in the film until like the last 10 minutes. He is like making you wait for the return of the king here. Oh no no, he turns up at the beginning for some reason and then he's never made
00:20:05
Speaker
on the very end. And at the very end when he does turn up he's like, oh this majestic return and I'm like, who's that? Where was he? Where was he up to? You know that maybe you're watching a film with this subject and the title. You're watching the Hobbit and you're like, this should a lack of Hobbit and that sort of thing.
00:20:22
Speaker
It's like this, it's like there's a lack of returning of things. I was really surprised to cut out Gimli and Legolas because it's not like they're minor characters. If you're skipping out most of the plot then I guess they don't need to do much. Another thing I noticed, and I don't know if you noticed this as well, when again it's the product of the 80s no doubt, but the fact that
00:20:42
Speaker
the good guys more or less look the same. Do you know what I mean? Again, this is me looking back after obviously watching the Peter Jackson films, but Gondor has such a distinctive style. Rohan has such a distinctive style. And don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure in the books they said that as well. And
00:21:00
Speaker
In this film, they're just generic knights and the only thing that's distinguishing them is the banners or the shields that they're holding. There's no difference between them. It's just like generic knight 1, 2, 3 and then they just copy and paste them. Yeah, I think that's just a limitation of the time though as well. This was brought out dead quick when you think about it. Between the Lord of the Rings coming out, the one in the, what does it say? Oh, 78 or 79, whatever it was. And this coming out, it's like less than a couple of years. So they went from storyboarding to animation real, real fast.
Character Portrayal: Sam's Criticism
00:21:28
Speaker
I'm just reading through the notes.
00:21:30
Speaker
send it to one another and after the whole day the phone died lol gg i just said other than saying he was a good friend
00:21:39
Speaker
I just put it to you, Sam is such a dick in there. And I stand by that. He's just having a mood most of the time, which I think is really funny. You know when you hang about with someone too much and you get to, like, you're just sick of everything they're doing? You know, and that's what Sam's like in this. He's just having a complaint. And I don't blame him. He's been with Rodo for ages. Now, this is much more realistic than the Peter Jackson books because they're like, oh, we're good friends or not. Now, in this one, Sam's just sick. He's just sick of having to look at Rodo in this one. He's just having a complaint the whole time.
00:22:08
Speaker
But who is he complaining to? That's the thing. The world man, he's just having a moan at leaving me. You know, you've had films at least before and after this where they have the whole show don't tell, but the voice actor's just like, no, if I'm getting paid for this, I'm getting paid for this. I want to just go, oh, I'm out on this. And he just, he
00:22:29
Speaker
about everything. You know, he talks about throbbing rings, he talks about his fake children. He's getting paid by the line, mate. That's what it feels like. I'm Mr Theodore. I don't know if that was him, but Mr Theodore. I wasn't in the script and he's furiously writing it down. He's just having a moan. But then, as you said to me in reply when we were watching that, Frodo is just the same. There's one scene where he's straight up just lies down and he's like, oh, I can't be arsed anymore.
00:23:00
Speaker
I think it could be a reprise of it's so easy not to try. It is, yeah. That's like the running theme fruit. Yeah. But I thought that was so mean because it's like, this guy's carrying the weight of an unbearable weight and you're like, ah, it's easy not to try into you, wee dick.
00:23:15
Speaker
Oh, even me? Even the bard's getting on up? 1980s attitudes to depression, really. But that's it. He just, he lies down and this is a map pointed out to you. I was like, okay, the first thing he does is he lies down, the bard takes the piss out of him and then he, his first memory, I kid you not, his first memory is him getting whipped by an ork.
00:23:39
Speaker
And I was like, oh boy, what is this for? This has led us up expertly to the best song in the film. Oh, of course. As the plot goes, Sam and Frodo then get disguised in an oak army. A very terrible disguise, can they just say?
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah, these orcs look like dog. Like cat dog,
Standout Moment: 'Where There's a Whip There's a Way'
00:24:00
Speaker
yeah. Because slightly off topic, but that was something that I found weird when they were doing the recap and they showed smoke and it looked like a cat dragon. And I was like, yeah.
00:24:11
Speaker
It's definitely not the weirdest animation choice because he's still to turn up. Oh yeah. He wasn't the flashback but he's still to turn up. We'll get to him. Mr, I have to tell you I've moved into the neighbourhood. But no, we'll talk about him in a bit. Because I saw it in the best song. The better part is the oaks that look like cat-dog people then break into a song and it's where there's a whip there's a way and it is such a banger that I added it to my gym playlist.
00:24:42
Speaker
And now every moden, this comes on by a gym playlist and it's fantastic. It's the best thing that Lord of the Rings has given to me. Is this why it's the superior version? And this is why this film is the superior version of The Turn of the King. Thank you for your time. I won't be taking any more questions on it.
Gollum's Bizarre Transformation
00:25:00
Speaker
now see I would agree with you but then we have the next scene which of course is I don't know how to explain this other than as I said mister I have to by law let you know that I'm moving nearby you because what did they do to my boy Gollum? Gollum is like this kind of pseudo-hobbit that was corrupted and you know he's just horribly he's just gone through a horrible experience no no no no brother he's a fish man now
00:25:28
Speaker
He's a green fish man. He looks like, you know the bass that people used to buy in the 90s? The one that sang? Oh there's a woah. See if anybody out there has one of them or knows what I'm talking about. Had a pair of legs. Had two pairs of legs to the front, two pairs of legs to the back. That is golem. That is golem. This weird fish toad man.
00:25:56
Speaker
Gollum is one of these in the books and the Peter Jackson one as well. It's quite a complex character. It's one who is suffering through themes of addiction and just things that have affected his mental fortitude. He is at a low point in his life and you have to feel so sorry for him. This one on the other hand, I would not want him to hesitate twice about throwing him into Mount Doom. I would kick him.
00:26:22
Speaker
He brings down the tone of Mount Doom. He brings down the property value. It's like, you know when you go to an older relative's house and they've got that one statue or one thing and the house you look at and you think, this does not belong in your home.
00:26:39
Speaker
Why have you got this? This is Gollum. This is Gollum. He is, I don't want to say freak of nature, but he's a freak of nature, I'm going to say it. What were your first thoughts on him? Genuinely, what were your first thoughts? See, as soon as you saw Gollum, this twisted creature. I genuinely couldn't understand that it was Gollum. My brain wouldn't accept it. And so, just for clarity, the older I watched these films, and as I watched the Lord of Rings when first I ever turned the kingdom and jumped back and watched The Hobbit,
00:27:03
Speaker
So I had no idea what I was getting myself into because the Gollum and the Lord of Rings one looks like Gollum. It looks exactly a bit taller maybe, but nothing weird. This was such a surprise. I was just, I was baffled. Like I couldn't even, I'm still not 100% sure why.
00:27:19
Speaker
You know how usually if something's weird in an adaptation, you can at least go, right, okay, I understand where this decision was made. There's nothing in my brain that under- like, why was he a green- I just can't understand why he was a green fish man, what the thinking was behind it. Well, counterpoint, I bet you the animator or character designer, you know, he was burning the midnight oil, right? Imagine him. 2am, his wife and kids are wondering where he is. He's hunched over and he's humming the theme. It's so easy not to try.
00:27:48
Speaker
He just draws anything, he's like, go home. And the reason I'm not accepting this is his actual drawings from like, talking of these characters. No, don't accept that. He invented a new character. What I think it was, he had a plan, he's like, I have this weird fish dude and he's getting in this film. Has anyone checked this guy's DA account?
00:28:15
Speaker
That's all I can say, Judge, yeah. Why a fish, man? I don't get it. And the thing is, do you know what upsets me the most? When I went back, and I'm skipping ahead a wee bit here, but I went to see what people thought of this film, and I genuinely thought people were going to be a lot harsher than
00:28:30
Speaker
they actually were, and granted a lot of people were quite forgiving for it because they said they grew up with it. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah, like if you were watching this growing up, I definitely could see you enjoying it, having nostalgic feelings. But my heart is bitter and cold and dark and so I have no nostalgia. I've put on the one ring of power. I'm going kinda okay in times a hundred here.
Storytelling Flaws and Omitted Scenes
00:28:55
Speaker
Why ya fish, man?
00:28:56
Speaker
And then after that, the thing is, to get me wrong, Lord of the Rings obviously jumps around. You've got two or three concurrent stories. You've got Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas. You've got them doing their thing. Obviously not in this film. Yeah, don't worry about them. Get rid of them. Yeah, no one cares about the return of the King. Imagine that. You've got Frodo and Sam, which is basically the main bit of the story. And then, of course, you've got the Ganda of Shenanigans.
00:29:22
Speaker
And we'll get to the Gandalf shenanigans, don't get me wrong. But yeah, it is just so disjointed. And the timing just makes no sense. As I said, you cut to Gandalf and it's like, oh, Denethor, come help us. And he's like...
00:29:36
Speaker
I don't want to help you, I just want to die. It's so easy to die, apart from that. And then they skip over really important moments. Here's a thing that really riled me up. So you know how I was more than earlier about the fight for Manus Tirith, or sorry, Manus Tirith.
00:29:54
Speaker
It's such an iconic part of the Peter Jackson films, which obviously weren't around, but it's well for the books because it's this city that is the bastion of freedom for men in this universe. It's like the last stronghold that's been untouched and then all of a sudden this force is coming outside to corrupt it. We're not going to focus on that, right? I don't worry about it. That's bad enough.
00:30:17
Speaker
But then they skipped out the charge of pellin or fields. And that riled me up even more, because you do want to know an interesting fact. There is actually footage, and I've found this on YouTube, there is actually audio of GRR token. And occasionally, it reads out the charge of data.
00:30:36
Speaker
And it is, if you haven't heard it by the way, it is absolutely fantastic the way he writes it out, the way he has his diction, the way he paints the scene. It is just fantastic. So there is zero reason why they skipped that out. They just say, oh by the way, Rohan popped up with Lord Theoden. And I'm sitting there going, see if I hadn't seen Lord of the Rings.
00:30:58
Speaker
if I hadn't seen Lord of the Rings, if I wasn't familiar with the source material, I would not know what's going on. There's so much of that in this though. It's so baffling. That's what I was saying to you. Do you not find that baffling that for a film it's not even
00:31:13
Speaker
for the fans, because even the fans like you and I are getting confused by her. That's the thing, it's like you mentioned Lord of Things being so dense, there's a lot going on at that point. It's like if you're making an animated thing, you either have to cut down extremely or go super linear and just do a Frodo and Sam story. That could work on its own to try and include so much. Just as another example, in the same battle where Alon turns up after Theoden falls two foot off his horse and dies. He dies to the same disease then the Thor dies on.
00:31:42
Speaker
after the battle no less so they've already won and then he falls off his horse and dies. She gets to do her whole speech which is actually cut from the Peter Jackson film so that's pretty cool. She gets to do her speech so she turns up, takes the helmet off, does her speech, kills the witch king and then that's her, see you later.
00:31:58
Speaker
She turns up and disappears in the space of five minutes. You see her, I think once at the end, like you see her in the background of a few scenes but that's her for all the lines. It's so weird how they've obviously thought some characters have to be in like Aragon like Eowyn but they just turn up say a few things and disappear again like Aragon's the exact same so then he follows on and they just go oh by the way Aragon's back
00:32:17
Speaker
like there's literally a voiceover narrating it going oh by the way Aragon comes back, he turns up and then we're in the sort of at the end game from there he's just like oh let's go let's go invade the Black
Character Introductions and Exits
00:32:27
Speaker
Gate as us. It's crazy how much they cut around and you lose a lot of character doing that because nobody has a personality because they're just an exposition machine at that point. It's just breakneck pacing though, it's just so weird because going back to that A1 scene, I want to just touch on that quickly. I think that that is
00:32:45
Speaker
probably one of the better scenes in this song. And I do think Eowyn is portrayed as being really, really cool in this era. As you said, it's a really cool speech and everything. It's just a shame that there's two things that detract from it. One is Pippin's Roger Moore impression going, oh, a woman.
00:33:03
Speaker
Yeah, you've got Mary going. Ooh, it's Eowyn, Theoden's niece. And there's just so much exposition. It's like, oh, he forbade her to ride. As I said, see if I was watching this for the first time. No idea what the hell's going on. Nope. I would still be saying, who's this? Why did it come out of nowhere? Why does the Witchkin sound like Skeletor?
00:33:22
Speaker
I honestly couldn't believe that when the Witch King came down. And, you know, again, maybe the Peter Jackson adaptation has spoiled us, but the Witch King is… I'm assuming he's the head honcho of the Nine Congress. Yeah. And, you know, he's very imposing. He writes the Nazgals. He's just forced to be reckoned with. And it is so cool to see, obviously, Ewan take him down after Mary just randomly stabs him. Like, shagz!
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah, this guy just sounds like Skeletor and you can't take him seriously. I'm sorry. This is the same film that wants you to believe that Sam would make a convincing warlord. To be fair, he kind of would in this universe.
00:34:03
Speaker
You've got the skeletal witch-kick, you've got fish guy Gollum in it, the mouth of Sauron, he's in it as well, and he's also just a cackling. He's just a bloke. I guess it's because it's a kid's film and they want the villains to be ha ha silly billies, but it's not exactly that intimidating when the mouth of Sauron is just a bloke. He's just trying to do his job man.
00:34:23
Speaker
are we convinced that was the mouth of Sauron and not just like a guy larping? It was just whoever happened to answer the duel. Exactly. I'll just try and get him to go away. I don't know who he is. No, no, I didn't order a partial. I didn't order a one ring. Yeah, that brings me on to the next part of the pacing. So there's again another long winded thing of Sam and Frodo walking through Mount Doom and
00:34:46
Speaker
It's not even Mount Doom at this point. It's like they out-scratch the Mount Doom and they travel for ages and they dress up as orcs and they manage to get away from the orcs because they for some reason think they're orcs. But I don't know if they're just being nice and they don't want to be called out. It's being like orc races or something. My mother had hairy feet or something. I sort of single these guys out. So then they escape and then they talk about it being freezing then
00:35:10
Speaker
boiling and everything, they sleep, they keep going, and I'm like, my god, there's so much you could have put in here rather than this. They moan. And then I can't remember how, but Frodo buckers off at one point. He just, he takes a ring and they just... ALICE That's when they fight Gollum. ALICE No, but even before that, though, like, he just, it remotely disappears, and then there's a narration that's like, Sam searched for days in the volcano. And I was sitting there like,
00:35:35
Speaker
I'm sorry days! But that's at the point where he goes to destroy the ring. So actually inside Mount Doom by that point. So inside a mountain, I guess it's not that weird because you get the dwarf caves and stuff in Lord of the Rings as well. But yeah, basically because they wanted the two plots simultaneous but then realised that Aragon couldn't move an entire army to the Black Gate instantaneously, they had to then just stall the Frodo and Sam
00:35:58
Speaker
plot, so if Frodo and Sam become, or Frodo walks off of the ring and spends days walking around the inside of Mount Doom, could have just gone home at that point? I don't understand. Where were they? What were they doing? Was he just sitting there all that time? It is like, okay, maybe a wee bit more. Okay, let's stop, start, stop, start. You're like, why?
00:36:18
Speaker
isn't why. And then yeah, as you say, Sam walks in and he's like, oh my god, Mr Frodo, why is Mr Heijer kids humping the air for no reason? And then it turns out, oh, this is how he got the time. The backstory we wanted this whole time. Why is he called Frodo like because? It's because of this bitch.
00:36:39
Speaker
Okay. Well I love it this bit. Gollum gets the ring and he's so excited he just starts dancing near the edge. And in the version that they've obviously told the bard, Gollum just so happened to slip. They killed him. They straight up ran up and double hand shoved him. No doubt in my mind that Sam just went, oh there's a chance and just void him. You can tell the bard what you want as he threw you a white salmon. What just a frying pan to the face? He just knocked him down. Oh he slipped. And nobody in it. Oh he fell. We tried pulling him up but he's greasy for a chance.
00:37:08
Speaker
just slip through. We tried pulling up but honestly I didn't want to touch him. Yeah then we get the, when they say the finale, the pseudo finale, where the Eagles just slip in for no reason. If you were complaining about this in the Peter Jackson films, you know the, why don't the Eagles take the one ring to Mordor blah blah blah. There's reasons, there's justifications. All of a sudden in this film just Eagles pop up. You don't even know they exist at this point.
00:37:33
Speaker
Yeah. You've just watched this film, you do not know there's eagles in the universe. And then they swooped down and they did not skip leg day. Did you see those legs? Oh I did. Like I have never seen a more muscula drojo looking eagle in my life. And that's what they say in the film. Oh sorry, before. The world's weirdest final words. Do you remember what Frodo says to Sam before they get picked up by the eagles? No idea.
00:37:58
Speaker
I'm running down and he goes, die well, some lies. So he does! I was howling, I was like, imagine you're about to die with your best friend. And that's the last thing you say to them, even in a medieval setting, just to say, die well, friend.
00:38:16
Speaker
I'm putting that in my memory bag, so I'm going to use that at one point. I actually thought, he really said it, I thought he was going to shove him. I thought that was another one, like a betrayal. Yeah, and then the egos pick them up and they have the edge, they clap for the metro. I forgot that Rasputin was in this one.
00:38:31
Speaker
We go back to Bilbo's birthday party and ha ha he's old and fell asleep. What are we doing here lads? Why why are we spending so much of this film here? And then it gets to what I think is the weirdest part and this is something I don't really like in books and films and stuff and it's the bit where Gandalf then spends an extraordinarily long time saying that every Hobbit is getting taller. He goes look at Bilbo shorter than Frodo and Frodo shorter than Pippin and one day no no no no no sorry no Pippin is a genetic anomaly.
00:39:04
Speaker
That's not magic. That's just bad genes. It's not magic. What Gandalf is saying is that we live in the world of Lord of the Rings and the Hobbits are going to turn into humans. The Gandalf just calls out for having hairy feet. I think so. I'll fight him now. And I know there's all these things about Tolkien's letters and he kind of implied that right but these guys didn't do that research. They just wanted to have a weird ending but they were like oh maybe deep down? What? Oh Hobbits. I was like no we're not.
00:39:30
Speaker
It doesn't work like that.
Frodo's Farewell to Sam
00:39:32
Speaker
I just want to point out for the record I'm over six foot so if anybody calls me a hobbit I will be saying it's very hard to excuse you. And yeah the film ends with them hitting up the original banger which was it's easy not to try. For some weird reason yeah. They knew it was a banger.
00:39:47
Speaker
Yeah, but it's easy not to try, but it's easy also not to try with the soundtrack. Was the Mitchell being paid by the song? And they was like, oh, I can only come up with four of them. Yeah, it's tough to read songs. I get that. And there's one thing I want to point out, and I feel as if it's going to pique our mics, so I apologise in advance. Yeah. Headphone warning. There is one line, beyond the throbbing ring, beyond the die well supplies.
00:40:12
Speaker
Beyond Hobbits getting taller, right, there's one line that I want to point out and it ends relatively similar to the books and the Peter Jackson films where Frodo and Cole go to the, is it the Undying Lands on the big boat? Kind of off topic before going to this, but one thing that I found weird was they didn't adapt to the scourge of the Shire, which don't get me wrong, after everything they cut out. I'm surprised they cut out that as well because
00:40:38
Speaker
It's something that's not really been adapted. I feel as if every adaptation they just go, no, no, we want a happy ending. Come on, don't touch the shower. Come on. After a bit, I do agree with that. So it's quite strange they made that decision. But here's the thing. Frodo's a dick, right? Not only did he tell Sam to die well as they were about to get absolutely melted by lava, he said, no, Sam, you don't have to come with me to the Undying Lands. I'll get a plump all by way.
00:41:05
Speaker
I can't you know anybody who hasn't seen this go look up the phrase plump hobbit wires do not put that into your camera probably good reasons that is indeed a joke
00:41:20
Speaker
Not that it's not in the film, that actually is, he says. Go home, because I think Sam says... I always find this weird, because this is something I brought up to you, and you brought up a very good counterpoint, but Sam always calls Frodo Master in this, and in the Peter Jackson films, it's something you brought up that he does call him like, oh Master Frodo, or Mr Frodo, or
00:41:41
Speaker
He always calls him something with that variety. For some reason it sounds natural they are. But in this one he keeps coming with a master just randomly. Yeah it feels weird. Yeah it feels very uncomfortable. And considering what we know about Sam up until this point.
00:41:56
Speaker
It doesn't get any better. And then, of course, his final words, Frodo's changed the world. My final message moment here is, Sam, Sam, listen, listen, you don't have to come with me to the Undying Rancil. I'm going to live forever with these elves, and the elves are going to look at me and be like, how do the elves get shorter over the years? But that's the point. He says, Sam, Sam, Sam, my man, go home. Get a plump life, right?
00:42:22
Speaker
give up all the life before it's alarm to spread in the trunk, right? Just go home. It's just surreal because it's like, that's the last word your friend is gonna remember you man. This is a certified Kenobi moment where it's like, yes I knew Frodo, he nearly killed me over the rain. Thought about himself getting whipped.
00:42:41
Speaker
I was constantly, while he was having a kid, told me to die well as we were about to get burned alive. And then he told me to meet your mother. And I saw my wife with a plump rump. And he was a good friend. I guess. Oh, I can't wait for this explanation. I was just going to say Frodo likes him thick. That was all I was going to say. I've got nothing left. Frodo, even the letters, I'm not the secret here. It's like, I'm so terribly tired.
00:43:10
Speaker
He's got sickness for thickness. One quick thing. So going back to what you were saying about Gandalf looking into the camera.
00:43:18
Speaker
Maybe there's a hobbit in all of us. There's a lot of messaging in this moment. I don't think I like it. The writers of this were trying to get as many UNOs in as... This was one of those things where they tried to make themselves laugh. You know what I mean? That was definitely what they were going for. And I have to point out one absolute stellar person in the cast. Not even the cast, or the sound designer, or the person who did the sound effects. A guy called Tom Clack.
00:43:42
Speaker
And the only reason it stood out was because I was like, that is the best name for a sound designer I have ever heard. Tom Clark. So
Final Thoughts on a Flawed Adaptation
00:43:52
Speaker
to summarise, this is a film. Good summary. In all seriousness, how do you feel about this film? Would you say this is one that people should watch for, I don't know, token preservation? Or how do you feel? I can't not recommend it. I have to recommend it.
00:44:08
Speaker
And I don't know why. Everyone should watch this film. There is too much for me not to pass on to other people. I don't want this film to not be well known. Everyone needs to see this film. Do they though? Yes, a hundred percent. This is the definitive Lord of the Rings experience.
00:44:24
Speaker
What I want to say is if you like Lord of the Rings you should go watch this because it's so weird. If you don't like Lord of the Rings you should go watch this because then you can make fun of people like Lord of the Rings because this is what they like. If you like good movies then you should watch this to find out what a good movie is not and if you like bad movies you should watch this because it's brilliant.
00:44:39
Speaker
10 out of 10, fully recommended. This is a 43-year-old film. It feels like it. Yeah, as I said at the beginning, I don't want to throw, despite throwing shade over the whole film, I don't want to throw shade over people who have grown up with this film and enjoyed it. This is definitely one of the films that I feel as if if I was younger and had gotten into it, then maybe I would have had fond memories over it. You know, because that seemed to be where all the positive comments were coming from, the people saying
00:45:05
Speaker
Oh I love this film Grown Up, it was my favourite, blah blah blah and I can totally say that. I can 100% see why you would love this film and I am not here to take those memories away from you, whether you watch it with family, friends, whatever. If this is your film, absolutely fantastic. Feel free to enjoy it as much as you want. As an objective social media, I can't say silent. I can't say silent.
00:45:29
Speaker
I don't have to say. It is not great. What I will say is it's entertaining but I would only recommend this film if you were a Lord of the Rings fan, just so you could watch it and just so you could say I've seen The Return of the King, both versions. I like it for the comedy value. What I will say is I was never bored by it and that is the mark of a good enough film.
00:45:55
Speaker
that, you know, it wasn't great, it wasn't good, but it wasn't bad. For me, the cardinal sin is definitely, if a film's boring and not enjoyable, then that's it. There's literally zero point of judging it to say, oh, that's a good or bad film. This film is to borrow a phrase from yourself. It's one of these films that
00:46:14
Speaker
if you have a lot of Lord of the Rings friends and everything and you want to watch something funny related to Lord of the Rings or you want to go down memory lane, this is definitely to watch with people just so you can prove it exists because let me tell you if you turn around to me right after watching the Peter Jackson films, if you turned around to me and said oh yeah there's a film where golem
00:46:37
Speaker
is a fish creature. There's a guy called Theodore in this film. They've cut out so much, the Battle of Pelenor Fields isn't in it. Everything is just absolutely out of sight. There's also men in Mordor for some reason. Yeah, okay, why not? It's just, it's a bizarre film, but you have to see it to believe it. But Craigie C, thank you so much for, yeah, introducing me to this film. And my final question, I suppose, is how does it feel for this to be your last episode on
00:47:08
Speaker
Die well, Chatsunami. I can't wait for the next teeny-sish. But yeah, on that note, thank you all so, so much for listening to this episode. If you want to listen to more episodes of Lord of the Rings Month, or really just any episodes by ourselves, you can catch us on the website, chatsunami.com, as well as all good podcast apps.
00:47:30
Speaker
I also want to thank our Pandalorian Patrons, Robotic Battles hosts and Sonya. Thank you so much for supporting the show. If you want to get exclusive content, then please feel free to head over to patreon.com forward slash chat tsunami. But until then, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, find your plump puppet lives.