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Shame On You...REALLY?
16 Plays1 year ago
Vernon and Kyle talk through the ideas of guilt and shame. Kyle shares how false guilt and shame led him down a very dangerous path. Guilt does have a purpose, but what is it?
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Transcript
Introduction to Guilt and Shame in Christianity
00:00:02
Speaker
This is your host, Vernon Terrell, with Grace Ministries International, and it's time for Walking Free. And welcome back. This is Vernon Terrell and I am again here with Kyle Jenkins. Hello, Kyle. Hey, Vernon. And Kyle.
00:00:31
Speaker
Shame on you. No, there's no. That's the title. That's what we're going to talk about a little bit. And we've touched on it before, I think, in other podcasts, but it is so prevalent and there's still misunderstanding, I think, around this idea or the ideas of guilt and shame and the Christian, the believer.
00:01:00
Speaker
And when we talk about this idea of guilt and shame, I guess it's good to first talk through some of the differences between guilt and shame. And how do you see those differences? Give it to me, Kyle, what do you think?
00:01:19
Speaker
Well, as I've learned, and it is just as God's shown me, it's, you know, I like how our good friend John Lynch puts it, a guilt says I've done wrong, but shame hisses that there's something irrevocably wrong with me. And that is so profound. I think that's a good launching point that
00:01:45
Speaker
Guilt is really about a behavior, an action, and shame is taking this sense of who I am. It really does become an identity. And this shame is who I am as a person.
Are Believers Guilty of Sin?
00:02:11
Speaker
There's something that is wrong with me.
00:02:17
Speaker
And here's the question, first of all, as a believer, are you guilty? And boy, that'll open up a couple of topics there. Are you guilty? Well, let me ask you, I mean, Kyle, this is a, here's a question. Kyle, do you still send
00:02:42
Speaker
Yes. Yes. It's gotta be somebody on this podcast that does. Um, so no, me too. Yeah. I mean, of course we sin. We live in this fallen world and we make unwise decisions, sometimes not just unwise, but really stupid, um, and unwise and all sorts. Just we make decisions and we blow it and we sin.
00:03:12
Speaker
And are we guilty of that sin? Well, if you define guilt as the behavior and the action, and this was wrong, we either broke the law or we broke
00:03:26
Speaker
We didn't act according to who we are in Christ. And did we sin? Are we guilty of committing that sin? Absolutely. We would be crazy to deny that. Of course, yes, we did it. Own up, fess up. Yes, we did. Question number two. Here's the big question.
00:03:54
Speaker
Are you guilty before God? And before we answer that, if God is outside of time and God sees the beginning from the end and he sees our beginning and our end and everything in between, I'll say it this way. At any point in our timeline, were we guilty of sin? Yes, yes, yes, yes we were.
00:04:23
Speaker
Are we guilty? No. No. Because we are forgiven in Christ. What do you think about that? How does that resonate with you? What comes to your mind around that idea? This is the glorious exchange. This all points to the finished work of what Jesus already did. I love it how Paul says it in Ephesians 1, 4,
00:04:51
Speaker
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. And so, like you said, yes, we're guilty of committing sins, but in God's timeline, the eternal sins in our spirit, we are blameless. And it doesn't mean we're sinless.
00:05:17
Speaker
But in Christ, well, that's already been taken care of on the cross. And so no longer are we sin-loving sinners. We're now saints who do commit sins, and yet we are blameless. So all of the- That word you just said, blameless. He has, in Christ, we are blameless. And there was really something,
00:05:46
Speaker
in our behavior and in just the fact of who we were that had a lot of blame. But because of the cross, he has made us blameless. And this is hard to wrap our brains around, but I would submit that no, we're not guilty. We're forgiven.
Forgiveness vs. Earthly Consequences
00:06:10
Speaker
That guilt was taken away.
00:06:13
Speaker
at the cross. So we're not guilty and to use the word that you use, that Paul used, that we are blameless. He has made us blameless. So yes, we sin and we shouldn't be denying that. But also, yes, we are blameless because of the cross. Now, if you go speeding,
00:06:44
Speaker
down one of those famous Dallas highways. And you get, and there's a police officer with a radar gun and guns you down with a radar and comes behind you with the lights, pulls you over and gives you a ticket. Don't tell that police officer. Yes, but I am blameless in Jesus Christ.
00:07:14
Speaker
And I think he would say, if he was a Christian, absolutely. Here's your ticket. Have a great day. And you're going to have to go pay that fine. Absolutely. And it will be a point or whatever the points are on it. Yes. There are natural, there are consequences to our behavior here. And so, yes, if we do something and we're guilty of it, we're going to
00:07:43
Speaker
You know, you do the crime, you do the time. And that is true on this planet. But if you're asking, if someone's asking, am I guilty before God? I'd have to say, no, it's been settled. It's done. You got the ticket and Jesus paid the fine.
The Error Gospel and Its Impact
00:08:05
Speaker
Okay. You got the ticket, but Jesus came and paid the fine. It's finished.
00:08:13
Speaker
Yeah. And I love that. What else is on your heart around this idea of guilt before we kind of jump into shame? Yeah. I mean, it does tie in with shame. For me, what led me to suicide so many times
00:08:35
Speaker
was the false gospel or error gospel, whatever people want to call it. So we're seeing in the New Testament, the real gospel is, I'm blameless. I'm now becoming Jesus focused. The false gospel, the error gospel, which Paul spent so much time in the New Testament epistles having to correct people's
00:09:00
Speaker
theology because they just had bad theology. I mean, it was just bad belief system because it all became a sin focused. Am I following the law? Am I doing enough? And I know people listening, they see that all in so many churches, the whole message will be about sin.
00:09:18
Speaker
And so whatever gets your focus gets you. And what I was taught growing up and for so many years until God showed me the light of what the real gospel of grace is, the error gospel was always just sin focused. And then a bunch of kind of generalizations of, I was sharing one last night, I had a moment in a car, I'd gone to a gas station.
00:09:46
Speaker
I always would have a knee-jerk reaction, oh, I see somebody, give them some money. And if I don't, then false guilt, shame, condemnation, those were the thoughts and feelings that would flood into me in that moment. They'd rise it up and it's like, oh no, maybe this is God convicting me. But later on, you know, God's been showing me, it's like, well, he's a good shepherd.
00:10:13
Speaker
And a sheep only encounters two voices, that of the butcher and then that of the good shepherd. And I was just able to sit there in the car and I'm like, okay, Lord, is this of you? Jesus, is this of you? Do you want me to, do you want to give money to him through me? Do you want this? And I heard a no. I was like, praise God, I was able to drive off and save money instead of just giving.
00:10:37
Speaker
But I had been taught, raised in a certain denomination, you always are supposed to give to the poor. I had to get away from that law-based regulation living, because then it's like I'd walk around experiencing false guilt and shame for something I did or did not do.
Guilt as a Signal, Not Identity
00:11:01
Speaker
But as we've already covered, it's like, well, we're blameless in Christ.
00:11:08
Speaker
So let's tease that out a little bit more. If a believer sins, and we've already established, of course we can sin, we can make bad decisions and we can sin. Now we know Jesus took care of that, but how does guilt, and where does guilt, or does guilt play a role in a believer's life?
00:11:38
Speaker
What do you think about that? If you do something wrong, I mean, you feel bad. I think when we feel bad, that's just evidence of Christ in us. When we mess up and we feel bad, there are folks who really don't feel bad.
00:12:00
Speaker
when they're doing things. In fact, it's a lifestyle for some folks. They've got no conscious or conscious or feeling or guilty feelings about it. I think when we feel bad, it's like the Lord's saying, hey, you're feeling bad because that's not who you are. That doesn't represent at all Christ in you and the new creation that is in you. And so guilt
00:12:24
Speaker
I think can play a role. It's just like that light on the dashboard that says, hey, that's not you. Warning, that right there, not you. Now, there is a line somewhere and I don't, you know, there's, I think if we wallow in guilt, that's just self-defeating. Sometimes we get,
00:12:51
Speaker
We feel guilty and we start wailing and wailing to God. And God says, would you just get up? Stop wailing. That's forgiven. We wail because we don't realize and understand the forgiveness we have. So guilt, I think, is that flashing light that says, hey, this isn't you.
00:13:11
Speaker
This isn't you warning Danger Will Robinson. This is not you. And we feel bad. That's the point, I think, where we say, Father, thank you. Thank you for your forgiveness. Thank you. That's not who I am. Thank you that you'll love me. And we take that and we move on. It's like I've said a number of times and I use all the time my
00:13:41
Speaker
I said, hey, you know, we've got to learn new F words, you know, in the Christian life when I wouldn't work with the inmates. And I said, I've got to learn the new F words and it's the fail forward faster walking in his forgiveness and freedom by faith, six F words. And we're going to fail. Let's fail forward. Don't wallow in it. Fail forward faster. Get out of it. Fail forward faster walking in his forgiveness. We are forgiven.
00:14:08
Speaker
and freedom. We're free. We don't feel free. We don't look free, but we are free by faith because you can't see it. So we can walk by faith that it is true. And I think guilt can be that quick reminder.
Consequences of a Shame-Based Identity
00:14:25
Speaker
So I'm a fan of a quick guilt, of a fast guilt. I do something wrong. Yeah. Thank you. That was wrong.
00:14:34
Speaker
I deal with it, thank the Father. If I have to make amends to somebody, I do that. And I move on. I move forward, learn from that, and I grow. That's part of my growing as a human. What happens, and you were leading into this, is that guilt can then kind of turn inward
00:15:00
Speaker
into this identity focus of shame where not that I just did bad, but I am bad. How did that affect you? You said it led you, some of this stuff led you even to suicidal ideations and attempts. Can you talk about that a bit?
00:15:23
Speaker
Yeah, that had to have been, I mean, some of the worst times in my life. And it was all from just a false gospel. It was from guilt trips and, you know, well-intentioned Christians. You know, they just wanted my behavior to change and be better. That's great. We all want that. God wants that.
00:15:45
Speaker
But as many say, and as we teach in the Network 220 Grace Communities, well, God's more concerned with what I believe, because what I believe will determine my behavior. I need to know the truth that sets me free, that in reality, in truth, you don't really want to sin. That's the new heart. That's the new spirit. That's Christ in us, the new life we have. As Paul would say, the only thing that counts is a new creation.
00:16:14
Speaker
Let me stop you there. Just on that point, some people say, well, wait a minute, guys. You don't know me. I want to sin. Dude, that is the enemy that has convinced you that your thoughts, that it's your thought that you want to sin. He has done an incredible
00:16:37
Speaker
an incredible psychological move on you, making you believe the thought and the desire is yours that you want to send. No, you don't. Your new heart does not want to send. Your new creation does not want to send. Every thought that comes into your brain isn't necessarily your thought.
00:16:59
Speaker
don't own it, identify it, deal with it, but you don't have to own it and then wrap your identity around this shame, I am bad. That's not you. And that's what you were dealing with with all these, quote, well-intended Christians trying to get your behavior to match up, maybe because they couldn't handle it. I don't know. It was reflecting on them. They had their own issues going on.
00:17:29
Speaker
they put that guilt trip and that guilt leads you to start believing that you're just a bad person. Yeah. Maybe not even saved. I had so many times. It got so bad for me and I'll share this and it's probably gonna knock, you know, some people might just turn it off after that and that's fine. I got to a place, I was like, well Jesus, just get out of my life.
00:17:53
Speaker
God, leave me. Get out of my mind. I don't want you anymore. That was all stemming from a false gospel. Of course, after saying that, Jesus is like, well, I'm not going anywhere. I still pursue you. I still love you. And it'd be so cool because then moments later, I'd be like, oh yeah, I want to go listen to some worship music.
00:18:15
Speaker
A non-believer doesn't do that. No. Maybe one of the best tests to see if you're a Christian or not, it's like, go sin. I'm going to encourage people to sin. Next time you sin and you do that, then it's like, what's your response to that? Are you like, wow, I don't really want to do this because if you're a non-believer, you'll sin and be like, well, there's nothing wrong with this.
00:18:38
Speaker
non-believers, they just sin radically out of control. And for them, they have no qualm. They have no issue with it. It's like, eh, or they just become sin deniers. And it's like, oh, it's not sin. There's not right or wrong. You know, you got all the different. All the variations. And so, and that was my experience. I was, you know, Jesus get out of my life, you know, listening to all the guilting and shaming, and I couldn't do it.
00:19:05
Speaker
Because I couldn't do the error gospel that I was being fed of, try harder, do more, be better, pray more, read more, evangelize more, evangelize more, you know, do all this stuff. Oh, and be sure you start sinning less. My whole focus, the whole focus, the whole messages that I was hearing was sin less, do more right. And I couldn't. Even if for a little while,
00:19:34
Speaker
It would look like I'm getting it together. Okay, I haven't drinking in a week. Okay, I'm okay. I haven't smoked drugs in a while. I'm good now. Good. I'm right with God now, but righteousness isn't it? Because of what we do, it's a gift, the gift of righteousness, being right in right standing with somebody with God because of Jesus and nothing else. And so that error gospel just had me,
00:20:02
Speaker
And that era gospel, you've got people putting that law and that performance and that guilt on you, and then you've got the enemy coming in. An enemy, it's like a one-two punch, the enemy is going to
00:20:20
Speaker
it really tempts you to sin and go against what you know is right and go against the righteousness and the holiness that God has made you, the person He's made you to be. And then when you do, just double talk.
Embracing Forgiveness and Growth
00:20:34
Speaker
He says, oh, look at what you just did. It's like, you just told me to do it. Yeah.
00:20:38
Speaker
But you did it and look what you just did. You are rotten. Are you even a Christian? Oh my goodness. And he's going to play both ends against the middle and just get you messed up.
00:20:53
Speaker
And the worst part is he doesn't let you forget it. He keeps reminding you and it's like in that very awful rap song that I do on Messed Up. It says you mess up and it disrupts and you keep bringing that stuff up. And that's what's messed up.
00:21:13
Speaker
because his forgiveness is enough. You see, you bring it up, and God's saying, what are you talking about? I threw that as far as the east is from the west. I don't remember it anymore. He says, why do you bring it up? And that's what gets us in this hole, this pit. It's this guilt and this sense of shame, and the sense of shame comes because we've owned this false identity
00:21:41
Speaker
based on our poor behavior or what others have told us we are, how bad we are, whether it's our parents or friends or spouses or whomever, the church, unfortunately, all of these voices come into our brain and then we begin to own it and that becomes this shame-based identity. And sometimes, and part of the journey
00:22:09
Speaker
And our counseling journey is really that we take people through. It's giving them a framework where they can begin to uncover the lies that they've believed and to believe the truth and then to walk out the truth. That's why really our message, our mission
00:22:29
Speaker
is helping people walk free. Not just understand their freedom, but to walk it out and to walk free. That's the purpose of the podcast, to stop talking and to start walking. You can say you're holy, now go walk as holy. Why? To get more holy? No, because you're holy. Just go be you that God made you.
00:22:59
Speaker
And when it comes to guilt and shame, let guilt serve its purpose to highlight things, but ask the Lord as you are doing so well, is this, was this really wrong? Is this what I did wrong? Am I experiencing this false guilt? Is the enemy just trying to make me feel guilty for something that's not even wrong? And there's some discernment that you just ask the Lord for wisdom.
00:23:27
Speaker
But let that guilt, when you know something in your heart was wrong relationally, personally, morally, just say, Father, that was wrong. Yep, I blew that. So just own the behavior, own what you did, own up to it.
00:23:50
Speaker
don't identify with it. That's the trick. You can own your decisions. And this is what AA, I think, wants to do, but I think they took it too far. And then it gets into this identity stuff where that person gets up and says, hey, I'm Vernan Terrell. I'm an alcoholic. No, as a believer, no, you are not. No, I am not.
00:24:15
Speaker
I am Vernon Terrell, a holy righteous person who made a bad decision. Own the decision, but identify with the truth. Let the guilt serve as that red flashing light, to own it, to make it right, to humble yourself where you need to, and then to walk free, thanking God for his forgiveness and moving forward.
Identity in Christ vs. Sin
00:24:40
Speaker
And this is so important. What's some final words you have around this idea of
00:24:45
Speaker
Guilt and shame. Yeah, and this totally surrounds the real gospel is the 2 Corinthians 5, 16. We look at no man according to the flesh, according to their sin patterns. Why? The next verse tells us why. Because you are a new creation in Christ. Sure, you got the flesh patterns. Yep, we see them. It's going on. And yet God doesn't identify his kids according to what they're doing.
00:25:16
Speaker
Doing does not equate with identity. Birth determines your identity. And God says, I don't look at you according to your sin. I look at you because you're my child. You are in Christ. And as we've said in another podcast, it's not Jesus covered glasses. If we were to pull them down, oh gosh, you dirty rotten. No, you're in Christ and Christ is in you. Christ has become your life.
00:25:40
Speaker
So we're not the flesh. And as Vernon, as you were sharing all the materials with GMI and the other network 220 churches have materials with this of confronting these lies.
00:25:56
Speaker
that according to the New Testament, hey, there is no guilt, fear, shame, and condemnation. Those are four things you don't have in Jesus according to the New Testament epistles. There is no guilt, fear, shame, or condemnation. What you are is righteous, holy, redeemed, completely restored, totally forgiven, set free in Christ, loved, accepted, acceptable.
00:26:20
Speaker
given all worth, value, significance, and somebody's committed to you fully and it's Jesus. And the beautiful thing, when we
00:26:32
Speaker
can actually do this relationally with others, whether it's our family or spouse. This is where it gets hard. This is not for the faint of heart. And this can take a while to learn and we stumble through it. But if we could learn to relate to one another as those seeing past that fleshy and seeing as God sees the truth of who they are,
00:27:02
Speaker
of the literal reality of that person that I'm physically interacting with, the little reality that they are holy, righteous, love, forgiven, pure and blameless, if we could see them as that person. And yes, they can annoy us. Yes, they can get on our nerves at time. And we can be shaken for a moment
00:27:31
Speaker
be ruffled for a moment and then stop and say, I know that's not the real them. I know they are holy and righteous and love. They might just be having a bad day. They might have a lot of things that just hit them. How can I love them right now in this crazy moment? I'm annoyed. Can I give that to the Lord, release that in forgiveness and say, hey, how can I help?
00:27:58
Speaker
and then start to relate that way. Boy, I think that would be a change in marriages and other relationships and friendships and families. It starts with me. It's not dependent on the other person. Humanly, I'm not gonna do it perfectly every time. That's just the life that we live. But by God's power, I can really do it a lot because greater is He who is in me.
00:28:28
Speaker
than he who is in the world. Yeah, massive transformations would take place. What is it? All of what you were saying. And that's how that got me out of all the stuff I was in.
00:28:45
Speaker
was God put people in my life. I'll never forget it. I was in a counselor's office confessing all the horror. I got yucky flesh. So I was disclosing all these disgusting sins I was doing. And he's like, well, yeah, that's some bad sin, but that's not who you are. He affirmed me who I am in Jesus. And Vernon, you did this with me countless times, just simply affirming people and who they really are.
00:29:14
Speaker
and just trusting Christ in us to love them through us and to affirm others. And that causes the transformation because it's the truth that sets people free. And so if we choose, we make that conscious choice, okay, Jesus, how do you want to affirm this person through me?
00:29:33
Speaker
And sometimes that's just my go-to. I just start telling people, hey, aren't you delighted you're completely forgiven? I'll just start putting Jesus in front of it. Just present Him Jesus. And no longer do I have to try to pull sin out of somebody's hand. I just show Him Jesus and that stuff will begin to just fall off because they'll see the truth and the truth sets us free. And it is that person, Jesus. And if they're new at creation in Christ,
00:29:59
Speaker
we're not trying to create in somebody something that they don't already have, you're completing Christ and you lack nothing. We just present them the truth that sets them free. And then it's God that's doing the work. We get to engage with him, walk with God as he's doing it in and through us. And then it's the marvelous deal. That's the marvelous deal. And that's
00:30:25
Speaker
I think it takes the pressure off, folks. Our job is to love, to accept. We share where we can, and we let the Lord be the Lord. We don't need to guilt people into behavior change. It never works. It just doesn't work. You say, oh, well,
00:30:47
Speaker
They may think that I accept their sin. Who cares? Let them think it. Do you? No? Okay. Do they see also that you love them? Awesome. That's what you want them to see. Just let them see that you love them. And if they ask, hey, do you think that XYZ is a sin or not? You can say, well, you know, I really, I don't think it's right.
00:31:13
Speaker
but I love you, I'm not gonna judge you for it. But if you ask me, yeah, I'll tell you what I think. And you can go at it that way. Let me encourage you and let Kyle and I both close down with this, that guilt, you're not guilty period before the Lord. Don't use it with that police officer, it won't work.
Conclusion: Own Actions, Embrace True Identity
00:31:36
Speaker
But with God, you're not guilty.
00:31:39
Speaker
You do sin, you make mistakes, and there are consequences. Own the choice, own the mistake, just don't identify with it. Own it, make it right. And thank God that you're already forgiven. And don't internalize any patterns of behavior and come to some false conclusion that you are less than what God says you are.
00:32:09
Speaker
Say, I don't feel it. Don't worry about the feelings. I want you to own the truth of your identity, not the patterns of what that behavior might be. I want you to start to rip open that shame and release that to the Lord and bring in the truth that you are blameless and you are holy. As Kyle said, you are a brand new creation.
00:32:38
Speaker
And as the Lord leads, that I want you to just stop talking about it. Stop talking and just theorizing about it. I want you to actually ask the Lord, what are my next steps that I can do to express Christ and the truth of who I am? And I can actually start walking.
00:33:07
Speaker
You've been listening to Walking Free, a production of Grace Ministries International in Marietta, Georgia. For more information, go to our website at gment.org. That's gminc.org.