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Seneca On Solitude (Episode 146)
920 Plays2 months ago
The Stoic art of solitude and self-consistency
Can you be alone with your thoughts? Seneca's Letter X challenges us to master the art of solitude.
In this conversation, Caleb and Michael unpack Seneca's advice on solitude and explore its relevance in our hyperconnected world.
(00:58) The Paradox of Solitude
(05:40) Consistency Between Private and Public Life
(12:35) The Dangers of Isolation
(19:08) Keeping Others and Nature in Mind
(26:12) Is Solitude a Goal?
(31:04) The Internet: A Modern Challenge to Stoic Principles
(35:00) Becoming a Friend to Oneself
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Listen as they discuss the Stoic approach to balancing social engagement with self-reflection, the importance of character in both solitude and company, and how to cultivate a healthy relationship with oneself.
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Thanks to Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music in the conversations: https://ancientlyre.com/
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Transcript
Introduction: Importance of Friendship and Stoic Themes
00:00:00
Speaker
And so making sure you're as good of a friend as possible by being as good of a person as possible. Make sure that you have a good friend to talk to at any point, a good friend to bounce ideas off of, and a good person to get advice from. We talk a lot about the idea of the stoic sage, but I love that idea of putting that on you. It's not just a role model. It's that you're that person you're bouncing ideas off of. So be the kind of person you want to go to for advice. Be the kind of person you you want to confer with.
Seneca's Self-sufficiency and Stoic Insights
00:00:27
Speaker
Welcome to Stoa Conversations. My name is Caleb Ontiveros. And I'm Michael Trombley.
00:00:33
Speaker
And today we're going to be talking about one of Seneca's letters, letter number 10, on living to oneself. So Seneca, the Stoic philosopher Seneca, who's also the advisor to the Roman Emperor Nero, towards the end of his life, wrote these moral letters to Lucilius. They are a set of pieces of advice for Lucilius, who is sort of, I think, a stand-in for an upper-class, ambitious Roman type. And in these letters, I think Seneca shows, of course, an expertise of the philosophy of stoicism, but also a high degree of sort of psychological awareness. I think he's sort of distinct
00:01:28
Speaker
among the three Roman Stoics we have and his sort of powers of um observation and heuristics for ordinary social situations, practical situations. So I chose a letter to go over. It's a short one. We'll read through it
Seneca vs. Marcus Aurelius: Philosophical Depth
00:01:45
Speaker
and then pull out what what we think are some of the key ideas.
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah, let's do it. Seneca is always great to dig into. I think you hit the nail on the head of his practical heuristics. He just has a lot of, I don't know if it's common sense because he's obviously in a very kind of privileged special position. He's very powerful, very wealthy.
00:02:07
Speaker
member of of the Roman elite, but he understands ah how to, I guess, be a stoic while fitting in, being a stoic while navigating um you know the rest of your roles and obligations really, really well um and ah but in a way that more practical than Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus sometimes who tend to be a bit more, I would say, on on a far end of the spectrum in terms of um I don't want to say extreme, but a a you know they're both in unique positions as as a teacher and as an emperor where Seneca's navigating, I guess, day-to-day normal people, um those that are more powerful than him, less powerful than him, and doing a good job of striking that balance.
00:02:54
Speaker
Yep,
Rhetoric and Motivation in Stoicism
00:02:55
Speaker
yep. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, and and then this, and this letter we'll see a little bit of that. We'll also see Seneca's rhetoric and I think some of the way he motivates Lucilius and probably himself as well to act more stoic and how he, how he sees that. Yeah, let's do it. Excellent. So we'll start by reading it out. So this is letter number 10 on living to oneself.
00:03:25
Speaker
Yes, I do not change my opinion, avoid the many, avoid the few, avoid even the individual. I know of no one with whom I should be willing to have you shared, and see what an opinion of you I have, for I dare to trust you with your own self. Crates, they say, the disciple of the very still bow whom I mentioned in a former letter, noticed a young man walking by himself, and asked him what he was doing all alone.
00:03:54
Speaker
I am communing with
Solitude vs. Self-sufficiency: Seneca's Warning
00:03:55
Speaker
myself, replied the young. Pray be careful then, said Crazies, and take good heed, you are communing with a bad man.
00:04:05
Speaker
When persons are in mourning or fearful about something, we are accustomed to watch them that we may prevent them from making wrong use of their loneliness. No thoughtless person ought to be left alone. In such cases, he only plans folly and heaps upon future dangers for himself and for others.
00:04:24
Speaker
He brings into his play his base desires. The mind displays what fear or shame used to repress. It wets his boldness, stirs his passions, and goads his anger. And finally, the only benefit that solitude confers, the habit of trusting no man, of fearing no witnesses, is lost to the fool, for he betrays himself. Mark, therefore, what my
Prayers for Mind and Health: Public vs. Private Desires
00:04:50
Speaker
hopes are for you. Nay, rather, what I am promising myself,
00:04:54
Speaker
Inasmuch as hope is merely the title of an uncertain blessing, I do not know any person with whom I should prefer you to associate rather than yourself." I remember in what a great sold way you hurled forth certain phrases and how full of strength they were. I immediately congratulated myself and said, these words do not come from the edge of the lips. These utterances have a solid foundation. The man is not one of the many. He has regard for his real welfare.
00:05:24
Speaker
Speak and live in this way. See to it that nothing keeps you down. As your former prayers, you may dispense the gods from answering them. Offer new prayers. Pray for a sound mind and for good health, first of soul and then of body. And of course,
Living Openly: Aligning Private and Public Life
00:05:42
Speaker
you should offer those prayers frequently. Call boldly upon God. You will not be asking for him that which belongs another.
00:05:51
Speaker
You will not be asking him for that which belongs to another. But I must, as is my custom, send a little gift along with this letter. It is a true saying which I have found in Athena Doros. Know that you are free from all desires when you have reached such a point that you pray to God for nothing. Accept what you can pray for openly.
00:06:18
Speaker
But how foolish men are! They whisper the basest of prayers to heaven, but if anyone listens, they are silent at once, that which they are willing for men to know they communicate to God. Do you not think, then, that some such wholesome advice as this could be given to you? Live among men as if God beheld you. Speak with God as if men were listening. Farewell.
Self-sufficiency vs. Betrayal of Self
00:06:46
Speaker
Heavy, nice. Yeah, excellent. Well, theirs the there's letter, short, in five sections. And it starts with that sort of initial, almost paradox,
00:07:05
Speaker
if you will, which is, a he highlights, I think, the dangers of being alone, of isolation. while also noting that a stoic goal, a stoic aspiration is to be able to be the kind of person who is self-sufficient and who can you know be with themselves without betraying themselves. So I think i think that's a that's an interesting thing to call out because Seneca knows that many people make mistakes when no one's watching, right? they don't Maybe we don't
00:07:44
Speaker
act as we wish we did when no one's watching. A lot of the incentives are gone. To take it as a simple example, probably many people feel like they don't use their time well when they're alone, perhaps. And yet on the other side, many people do find a lot of value from being alone. And in a sense, Stoicism calls us to be the kind of person
Balancing Solitude and Community
00:08:05
Speaker
and who can be alone and be happy, as well as I think practically avoid the ah madness of crowns.
00:08:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's all right. there's I think that's the that's correct. There's that pragmatic focus on yeah being able to commune with yourself. you know that You sometimes hear that today, this kind of advice about, well, don't get in a relationship until you're happy alone, or don't try to find friends until you you you like yourself. um you know Don't try to love somebody else until you can love yourself. And those are coming at it from a different angle. But i think yeah I think that's one level of it is that same kind of thing of um Yes, being a good stoic, you you are a good stoic so you can be help behave well with others, but um there's a danger to being by yourself. and there's a ah if If you're not, I guess, principled, if you're not consistent in what you think and how you act,
00:09:09
Speaker
There's also you know i maybe an inability to help others appropriately until you get that right. I might be extending that, but at that same point as before, which is you know you can tell you're not a good stoic if you're not able to spend time in isolation well. and Then and then you know if the person who can't spend time by themselves well, um you know what are they going to do once they enter a crowd? you know How are they going to act once they have some people demanding things of them? Well, not well if they're not even okay by themselves.
00:09:37
Speaker
and that's I think yeah that's definitely the one part to it, well communicated. Yeah, I think so. I think one sort of central point that i that it stood out to me here is that being alone is an aspiration and it's almost more of an advanced skill even while it's true. It's something one must work on even perhaps at the beginning levels of ah becoming a stoic. What do you think about that?
00:10:06
Speaker
Yeah. So I guess the, so I was kind of saying there's this, you know, there's that Jordan Peterson line of, you know, clean your room first. So there's that idea of you got to focus on yourself, focus on what's up to you before you leave and enter the social domain. And you're, you're pointing out that, yeah, there's some of that here, but there's also this extra flavor of.
00:10:25
Speaker
not only not only is like mastering yourself important, if you haven't mastered yourself, there's a real danger to isolation such that it might actually be like an advanced thing where you know at least if you're with the crowd, you're kind of going to maybe be average. You're kind of going to maybe hit that mean.
00:10:43
Speaker
But if you're in a bad spot and you you you're by yourself, well, you're only going to be worse because you're going to confer with yourself. ah You're going to have a conversation with yourself and you're a bad man, which is Seneca's point. Which, yeah, I think that's an interesting point. I think that's a good point. I think that's the kind of thing that I i general advice I would give to anyone who's struggling is like, you know get out of your own head, get out of the house, find a community, find find a group of people to engage with. And I think part of that is because it just will you'll kind of average out to the people you're surrounding by. And if you're not if you're not as good as you want to be yet, or you're not in as good of a place as you want to be yet, well, then you want to be pulled up by the people that surround you.
00:11:26
Speaker
um
Rational Interactions and Learning from Others
00:11:27
Speaker
That don't make sense to me. Yeah, absolutely. I suppose maybe if we want to pull this into some more general stoic, to connect this to some more general stoic concepts you have, you know, we have the idea of indifference and to some degree, sociability is an indifference. Whether we surround ourselves with other communities, with others, or that we take time alone to reflect and so on.
00:11:55
Speaker
is in a different matter. And one of the central lines running through stoicism is that whichever situation you find yourself in, whether you're surrounded by people, whether you're you're alone,
00:12:06
Speaker
um what matters is how you respond to that situation. And what Seneca pulls out here is that there are different risks and benefits associated with either one. So ah of course, ah you know on the benefit side of being surrounded with others, if you choose your friends wisely, you have that positive influence. Yeah.
00:12:31
Speaker
and you And even if they're you know didn't if you're not, say, selecting your friends with a strong filter, you have people who are um other kinsmen, as Marcus Aurelius says. ah It's always important to remember that other people are rational. And even if they're not the most virtuous people, they're probably something one can learn from, learn from interacting with them, and so on. So you have that on the benefit side, but of course you also have, in the risk side, the madness of crowds and so on, and that influence to want to copy others, to imitate others, even when their behavior, their thinking, their thought patterns and so on are not ideal.
00:13:15
Speaker
I mean, it's there's there's just this model of progression, right? where if you're You want to spend time with the best person you possibly can. And if that best person is yourself, you probably want to be alone. And if the people around you are better than you,
00:13:31
Speaker
You probably want to you know learn from them and spend time with them. Better
Using Solitude for Self-improvement
00:13:34
Speaker
is like harsh. But I think you put it well. of ah you know People share a rational nature. There's something to learn from people. There's something good with spending time around people. And that's that's if you're you know having a rough time, if you tend to be, as Seneca says, ah google um loneliness or isolation, it wets his boldness, stirs his passion, and goats his anger.
00:13:56
Speaker
If you find yourself to be a bold, passionate and in the bad stoic way and angry person, it's probably better to spend some more time around other people and have those things.
00:14:07
Speaker
I would say numbed, but like um softened. and I guess the flip side is that if you if you are the kind of person where you are the best person in the room, then you should also have confidence and trust in trusting yourself, a decision to confer with yourself, and and ah and a a willingness to be lonely then, and a a desire to be lonely because you can at least confer with yourself. You can at least you know have your own company. and If that's the best company, then that's a good thing.
00:14:33
Speaker
I guess there's kind of a practical question of like how do you tell which is which because I guess many people that have isolated themselves would think well I'm the great man isolating myself to you know listen to my own advice I think there's there's many kind of
00:14:49
Speaker
you know many Many people who found find themselves on the outskirts of society who who would feel this way, you know, Diogenes would say this, and we look at Diogenes and we think this, about Diogenes the cynic, I mean, who was the one that was famous for, you know, living in a barrel. and offending Athenians and and having very little possessions. um And so hes he's that man who'd prefer his own company by himself in a barrel than spend time with the average Athenian. But I guess there's there's
Community Engagement for Stoic Living
00:15:19
Speaker
a kind of, that's my next thought is like, how do you tell if you're Diogenes or just the you know the grumpy the grumpy person by yourself, right? like those are those are One is very bad and one is very good, but they kind of meet in the way that they look.
00:15:32
Speaker
Right, right. Yeah, how do you have what how do you and ensure that you're not the fool betraying yourself when you're alone? Yeah, yeah. That's what you said is it's an advanced technique, I guess. ah yeah Yeah, I think so. And I think it's also one other point is that it's, it's maybe we're not thinking about full isolation here, but on a kind of retreat. Because it sucks, of course, think we're social creatures. So Nearly everyone is called to live the life of, in some sense or another, you know being a citizen, interacting with their city, their family, the community around them, and so on.
00:16:12
Speaker
um With maybe perhaps just a handful of so exceptions with you know Epictetus calling out the cynics and respecting their lifestyle as well. when he And even so, the you know the cynics live in live in cities un even if they do it in a different manner than others.
00:16:31
Speaker
um So I suppose that's just to say that we're not thinking about going monk mode in a cabin or a cave or somewhere, but perhaps you know on the margin, do you take more retreats? Do you take more moments of silence during the day, during the year or whatever that happens to be? And now there's that that other question you brought up. but how do you know whether you you're the person who thinks, you know, I need to be alone with my own thoughts, perhaps focusing on my own projects, communing with authors like Seneca, The Great Wisdom of the Past, um in a way that really furthers self-improvement versus the kind of person who, you know, flees society either out of their own delusion, a sense of
00:17:22
Speaker
grandiosity or perhaps flee it for some other
Consistency in Thoughts and Actions
00:17:27
Speaker
reason because they're afraid of interacting with others in an unhealthy way. Yeah, that's mean just a to difficult practical question. um I think it connects to the other theme, which which stands out to me in that last paragraph, which is about consistency.
00:17:45
Speaker
That's something Seneca rails on a lot and it just comes out here. I think that's such a beautiful line of, you know, live among men as if God beheld you, speak with God as if men were listening. And he what he's contrasting there is he's contrasting the person who, you know, basically who they really are and what they really desire. They pray in private. They say in private or they think in private. That's to the gods.
00:18:09
Speaker
And then when they're when they're out with people, they go, oh yeah, no, like i don't really you know I don't really want that or it doesn't really matter to me if that happens. I couldn't really care less. They they sure sure they lie to men, but then they go and they pray to God that they get rich and powerful and these things happen, let's say. yeah And so i mean the important point here One thing that anybody can do, regardless, is you can always be consistent. so another way We were saying, like how can you know if you're making the right progress? Well, one way to do that is to say, well, what does what does a good person look like? What does a person who wants to commune with themselves look like? Obviously, it would be practicing and and understanding the stoic theory. But another part of that is consistency that Seneca recommends, which is to say, what you think in private is what you're comfortable saying to other people.
00:18:57
Speaker
um and you're
Values in Private and Public Spheres
00:18:58
Speaker
not the kind of person and what you say to other people is what you think when you're by yourself and that kind of consistency I think goes a long way towards demonstrating maybe maybe maybe you've still got things wrong a little bit but you're at least not the fool, you're at least not the person who betrays themselves because you at least understand yourself um and you understand your your values in a way that's consistent um To I guess questioning or or any sort of surprises Right. Yeah, I think that's that's a good point. That's the that's the rule or at least a rule of thumb you can use to determine
00:19:36
Speaker
whether you are living by yourself in a way that is, as Aesthetics would say, virtuous, healthy, or perhaps whether there is a kind of you know viciousness in seeking solitude, and that heuristic is is what you are doing. Can it be made public? Can it be expressed publicly? um ah Marcus Aurelius references this same idea in book three, I think section seven of the meditations where he talks about you know don't desire to do anything that needs curtains. In other words, be skeptical of that sense that you're doing something that needs to be hidden from others because that's some initial sign that whatever it is, it's ah it's not ideal.
00:20:25
Speaker
Well and it cuts both ways right because sometimes we are ashamed of things we shouldn't be ashamed of and then sometimes we're not ashamed of things we should be ashamed like sometimes we desire things that are shameful and bad and so we retreat into isolation to do them and to be that way and to live that way and that's bad.
00:20:44
Speaker
But sometimes you know i think of um I think of somebody who who's who's who's gay who hasn't you know come out of the closet yet or something like this. like there's no Obviously, they're going up against pressures to do that, but there's this idea of um There's a shame there, but like living your best living your best life would be involving actually breaking through that shame and actually being comfortable saying that in public and and being that self around people. So that kind of retreating into the into the isolation to do that is, it's not because, oh, you should be ashamed of the things you do in private, but it is, there's something there about
00:21:20
Speaker
you haven't really achieved that consistency between the private and the public, and we see that obviously as like a source of ah you know pain and frustration for a lot of people. Yeah. And I suppose there's two things there. One is that consistency is a good heuristic, but you also need you need to ensure that you're putting good thinking into consistency, I suppose. Because one way to be consistent is yeah just decide, oh, I'm going to act poorly both in private and in public.
00:21:54
Speaker
um So that's one thing. And then the other thing is that you can't have the expectation that everything worth doing can be done in public and in private. For
Rational and Social Stoic Behavior
00:22:10
Speaker
the reasons you say, ah you know, there's a case where maybe society has a number of false beliefs, is structured in such a way that you can't act well in public, or at least another way to put it is that
00:22:27
Speaker
you need to acting well strategically just looks different than acting well in private does. And that's I think that's ah a serious complication that one one needs to think through. But perhaps in a lot of ordinary cases, if we think about some ordinary cases in modern life,
00:22:44
Speaker
ah yeah know whether it's using time well or
00:22:53
Speaker
with others or by ourselves, we don't we probably don't run into those sorts of situations as often where ah like what what good behavior looks like in private, looks different from what it looks like in in public, but that but they certainly do exist.
00:23:09
Speaker
Yeah, so like in in most cases, good behavior in private is going to look similar in public. although There's some there some cases where that doesn't apply. um But that consistency, yeah yeah, I think you raised the the good point. It's like, it has to be consistency with good reason, otherwise you're just consistently bad and that's not, that doesn't help anybody. yeah Oh, Seneca's telling me to do these terrible things I do by myself ah everywhere. So I guess I'll just, I'll leave the privacy of my house and I will,
00:23:36
Speaker
you know do them in public and that's not that's not that's not the advice here. Right, right. So one way I'm thinking about, summarize so one way I think about summarizing this letter is that we have this stoic aspiration, be someone who can be happy alone, and then there's that question, how is this achieved in two ways. One is by keeping others in mind, that's that point about consistency, our behavior in private should reflect our behavior in public, and that's sort of a rule of thumb. you know would i Can I easily justify my behavior in private and in public and so on? Or it brings to mind that there's a line from the writer C.S. Lewis to the effect of those oh those who immediately lose their courtesy at the dance party when they return home,
00:24:32
Speaker
had none at all or something like this. There's that thought, you know can you keep courteous behavior as a part because it's a part of your character? Can you keep it through whatever circumstance you're in? And by keeping others in mind, that's ah one way to remind yourself of what excellence looks like, I suppose.
00:24:52
Speaker
So that's one rule of thumb. And then the other rule of thumb is by keeping God in mind. So Seneca talks about prayers calling boldly upon God. The Stoics, we have this other episode on the Stoic view of God, but they saw God as nature,
00:25:08
Speaker
And that means think you know living in accordance with this nature um and respecting, or I should say, but aligning yourself with what is rational, the logos, as it were. So some of some of these big ideas i come into play immediately, but perhaps a simpler first pass at it is by keeping your values in mind. And of course, for the Stoics, those values are captured by these ideas of human nature. What are we? We are rational and social creatures. And that's what
Solitude as an Indifferent: Character's Role
00:25:44
Speaker
determines good behavior or that's what determines smart behavior. That's sort of how I think about these two two answers this letter suggests to being the kind of person who can live alone, keeping others in mind, keeping nature in mind, your nature.
00:26:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's really important. And like I think what's helpful when we do this kind of stuff is to think about what what it would look like if you're not doing this. um So if you're not keeping other people in mind or you're not keeping your nature in mind, times when we don't keep our nature in mind, we think about that like Santa, can we talk about the mob or the crowd when kind of you get peer pressured into doing something? you know Maybe people are like, bully, you got to bully this person to fit in and be cool. Well, you're not really keeping your pro-social nature in mind. You wouldn't really be proud to wish to God or you know metaphorical or otherwise to you know be a better bully or something like this. So you're you're just getting kind of pulled into the demands of the crowd of the mob there.
00:26:48
Speaker
And so that's something to be embarrassed by. Likewise, the crowd, though, does have this kind of um pacifying effect. So I think about somebody, you know, I think about, man, I'm by myself sometimes and I'm angry. Maybe I'm like insulting somebody in my head or I'm kind of like,
00:27:06
Speaker
making up Well, ah if they you know if they did this, i would I would act this way and I'm kind of coming up with these you know fantasies or something. and you know Would those be ones that you'd be comfortable? Would those of be thoughts you'd be comfortable sharing with a friend? Would those be thoughts comfortable you'd be comfortable sharing in a room with your peers? um and If not, you should ah start to question why you're thinking those are how helpful those are or if they're just if they're just kind of you know unhelpful thoughts you're getting away with because there's nobody there to kind of call you out and say, hey, that's not really the best way to... That's kind of an angry response, not really the best way to think about this thing. And so those are kind of the the moderating effects in both ways. you know Remembering God or as you were saying, more really remembering your nature and your place in the universe can moderate us against the pull of the of the mob.
00:27:54
Speaker
peer pressure, things like this, but then also remembering people because people are good and people have pro social, like they're, they're, they do there often it can help our behavior, can pull us out of these kind of negative, angry spirals or, you know, sad spirals or whatever happens when we're by ourselves and we're kind of just feeding into these things. And so yeah, not doing this would look like falling into either of those, either being highly influential or Um, getting a feedback loop of your own negative behavior, be that or an own negative tendencies, be that like a tendency to be angry or judgmental, or even just think too lowly on yourself, be too insecure, things like this. Does that sound right to you?
00:28:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's a I think that's well put. you kind of have the mistake of We've talked a lot about the mistake of know failing to be consistent, but when it comes to ah keeping... I think the crowd example is really nice, keeping your own nature in mind. Well, some ways in which being in the crowd might distort that is you act in an antisocial way because that's what the crowd pushes you to do.
00:29:00
Speaker
Another way might be you abdicate your reason, you let the crowd do your thinking for you yeah totally instead of being rational, rational yourself.
00:29:10
Speaker
And then then we we also have the the risks of, I think, ah of solitude. you know When you're left alone to yourself, if you have those dispositions, those natural tendencies you're like and talking about to be angry or so on, you might just let that run free, ah influence you in certain ways. and and And again, just as we are with a crowd, we still have the same issue. you know Can you use your reason well to you know make make good decisions and so on? Yeah, that sounds right.
00:29:36
Speaker
Cool. One thing this, this connects to two that I was thinking about is sometimes you hear people talk about.
00:29:44
Speaker
solitude as a goal. And I think there's something to that. But I think what this letter is pulling out is that solitude is this ability to be happy by oneself is almost a side effect of good character. And there's always this point with indifference that you know It depends what our core drives are and whether or not solitude is good for us depends on who we are and how we respond to that situation. And of course, ah you know what our other social relationships are and so on. you know Solitude is admirable perhaps for the person
00:30:32
Speaker
running a good company and they take take a week off to really reflect on large decisions. i might might They might make strategic ah decisions for the company and so on. and That sort of taking a week off by oneself can be a useful thing to do. In that case, if you take some other context, of course, you know taking a week off when your family really needs you and ah companies going through a hard time or something like that is obviously less ideal. So
Anonymity's Impact on Behavior
00:30:59
Speaker
ah social relationships like obviously matter. It's all to a goal. now Being able to be happy by oneself is an effect of good character. And then the Stoics would say whether or not you're called to be alone. you know That depends on the the circumstances of the situation.
00:31:16
Speaker
Yeah, solitude is an indifferent. It's not clear to me if they would say it's a preferred indifferent or a dis-preferred one as in if it's something that tends to be good. I would think like, you know, vacation solitude tends to be good, but yeah forced forced solitude, you know, being thrown in a prison cell, it's obviously very, very bad. But as you said, it's an indifferent and then whether or not you use it well or not depends on the nature of your character.
00:31:38
Speaker
like any other and different like money, power, social status. These are things that you can wield well or poorly to either improve you and the people around you or harm you and the people around you. And and solitude is the same kind of thing. It's not going to help. It's not categorically good or helpful to people, especially and the the the worse your character, the more likely it is to be harmful. And I think about this in terms of the internet when we're having this conversation, you know, just pulling it into a contemporary example of like,
00:32:08
Speaker
how the internet can... it's almost like It's almost like the opposite where you feel like you're communicating, but you neither... Like I'm saying, imagine you're posting on an internet forum. right You feel like you're communicating, you're checking that little box in your... You're checking that spot in your brain that's like, oh, I'm engaged in a social community, this is good. But because of the anonymity, I think, you're neither being held before God, nor held before people. So you're like, youre it brings out the worst than people, right? Because you're neither either holding yourself to that authentic example, because you'd be like, oh, I'm just trolling, or I'm just shitposting or something on the internet. And so you're not you're not being you're you're not committing to being your authentic self, but you're neither actually being accountable to a crowd of people.
00:32:58
Speaker
And so you end up that that's like I think one of the most dangerous spirals of loneliness and isolation that I see today. And
Accountability and Authentic Interaction
00:33:08
Speaker
i mean Seneca wasn't anticipating that here, but I think it it's an example of something that doesn't have either of the conditions he's looking for and so can be dangerous. Maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but I think there's something there.
00:33:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's something there. There's at least a suggestion, a kind of argument when you pull out a kind of argument against anonymity, namely and i just that which is that you don't have strong social bonds to others when you're anonymous.
00:33:38
Speaker
they're always to some degree weakened by the lack of identification responsibility. And yet at the same time, you're also not completely alone. You're influenced by whatever you're ingesting, whatever you're reflecting in that social world. So that's really interesting. I think it can't be successful as a universal ban, but it might be the sort of thing where you could see at least someone someone like Seneca perhaps strongly counseling against it in most most cases.
00:34:11
Speaker
yeah Or you'd have to have a really, probably a really strong sense of who you are before you enter these spaces. And then you can kind of carry that through. or e you know um But if you if you went there casually, it can have a ah negative shaping effect, I'm sure. That's not to say, like I'm not trying to say like any other and different, right? There's good and bad. And so if somebody here enjoys an online community, an anonymous online community, I'm not trying to say that's like a universally bad thing. that's the And that's not a cop-out either, right? That's the nuance of the indifferent idea, something that can be used well or poorly. This is just something that has a particular capacity to be used poorly or a unique way in which it can be used poorly when you're anonymous, which is, as you said, not not having that social feedback or social accountability. Yeah, yeah, right. It's it's you know it says perhaps it's what's more dangerous in cases of politics, what have you, and much more innocent in cases you know cases of recreation.
00:35:10
Speaker
Yeah. and Not saying you can't be playing any, uh, you know, online video games or anything. Yeah. Yeah.
Self-dialogue and Character Cultivation
00:35:16
Speaker
Uh, yeah, that seems right. Cool. Any other thoughts? Immerse you from that, from this letter.
00:35:25
Speaker
um I love the idea of being a friend to yourself. That's kind of alluded to here, but I love the idea of, you know at the end of the day, when you're thinking, you're having a conversation with yourself, right? You're bouncing. We've talked about this out before in episodes on stoic psychology, which is this idea that like you can't generate from nothing.
00:35:49
Speaker
So whenever you're thinking, all you're doing is kind of bouncing your impressions off of beliefs you have, or things you've heard, or things you're considering. And so all you're really able to do when you're reflecting, like you're you know you're angry and you're trying to work through your anger, you're kind of stuck with what's in the what's in the box, you know? And so making sure you're as good of a friend as possible, by being as good of a person as possible,
00:36:14
Speaker
Make sure that you have a good friend to talk to at any point, a good friend to bounce ideas off of, and a good person to get advice from. We talk a lot about the idea of the stoic sage, but I love that idea of like putting that on on you. It's not just a role model. It's that you're that person you're bouncing ideas off of. So be the kind of person you want to go to for advice. Be the kind of person you you want to confer with.
00:36:35
Speaker
And likewise, you know, if you're if you if you don't think in a healthy way about something and you're chewing on it, that's not necessarily a good thing. You're not necessarily working through your problems or developing. You can actually be like pulling yourself further down a negative a negative rabbit hole. Yeah, I think that's a great point. Asana Kanada Letters talks about, you know, making progress by becoming more of a friend to oneself. And I think that gets at almost the way in which, you know, being completely alone is impossible for the Stoics. You always have that influence of others, a classic image of someone going off to a cabin. Well, they usually bring their books and they have the thoughts that others had and and respond to them in their own way.
00:37:24
Speaker
And we can be good thinking partners with others. good the And some support what you're pulling out just now is ah that goal of being a good thinking partner to yourself, providing good counsel, good advice. And I think being able to do that is ah certainly with with yourself and with others is very rewarding.
00:37:50
Speaker
Well, and it's why studying philosophy pays such dividends, right? Because you're the person you spend the most time with. is So you want to make yourself as as you know as knowledgeable and as ah yeah as good of a partner to yourself as you can be because, yeah, you're going to spend a lot of time in your own head.
00:38:08
Speaker
um And so often, we I just don't think of myself as a friend to myself that often. And it's a nice way that kind of re-up or I guess reconceptualizes your personal responsibilities if you think of yourself as a friend to yourself. Yeah, I think that's
Conclusion: Engagement Invitation
00:38:25
Speaker
right. And then I think that's a good place to end. Awesome. Thanks, Gil. Awesome. Thanks, Michael.
00:38:32
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Stoa Conversations. Please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. If you want to dive deeper still, search Stoa in the App Store or Play Store for a complete app with routines, meditations, and lessons designed to help people become more.
00:38:51
Speaker
Stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyre.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.