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S2 Ep181: Representation in Games - Women
76 Plays4 years ago
Join Dave, Jake, and special guest Rachel as they talk about how women have been portrayed in video games throughout the years and discuss titles that have both good and bad examples!
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Thoughts? Comments? Requests for new episodes? Feel free to email them in!
SoapstonePodcast@gmail.com
Like our podcast? Like our podcast! We'll post when new episodes are uploaded!
https://www.facebook.com/SoapstonePodcast/
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
🎵
Introduction and Guest Appearance
00:00:29
Speaker
How's it going, everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soapstone. My name is Jake, and I'm joined by my co-host, as always, Dave. How's it going tonight, Dave? I delegate my responsibilities of the intro to our special guest, Rachel. How's it going tonight, Rachel? Or how am I doing rather? I mean, you spent a little bit too much time, I think, dwelling on the topic, but it's all right. Thanks for passing it by. I'm doing good.
Podcast Style and Humor
00:00:54
Speaker
That's good.
00:00:55
Speaker
I imagine, Lewin, that's just like, how is Dave doing when asking like a third party? It's just Dave T posing in a loading screen, like rotating around the examination of Dave. We've unloaded the assets for rendering Dave at the moment. Dave and Hi-Rez finally after all this time, 4K.
00:01:15
Speaker
Oh you got new glasses too? I feel dumb right now because everybody else has glasses that they can wear at the computer and mine I can't so it'd be even more straining for me. I need to use it as outdoor glasses. It's important for podcasting I hear. You really gotta wear your glasses. I feel like everybody's about to make a really good point and here I am with my space hoodie.
00:01:41
Speaker
I did wear it recently, into the AM hoodie, friends of the show, obviously. They should probably give us money when we say that. I'd be fine with this arrangement. We just need to get them on board. Right. Anyways, if they're listening, reach out. Always looking for advertising. You know what? Don't just send it.
Rachel's Past Episodes
00:02:02
Speaker
Just send it. Send the money. Money into command. That's what we're taking.
00:02:13
Speaker
But it seems like it's been a while. Rachel, I know you've been on several episodes at this point. We had like the Animal Crossing one. I really shouldn't have started the list unless I was able to finish it. Quick, someone jump in and save me.
00:02:27
Speaker
Danganronpa. Oh, Danganronpa. Excellent. Yes. Both. I thought you were mentioning that she was on the Animal Crossing episode because Animal Crossing just dropped. Yeah. It drops at officially in like an hour and a half from now, so everyone knows what time that we're recording.
Gaming ASMR and Niche Appeal
00:02:47
Speaker
Um, but unofficially they released it this morning and, um, I, I love you guys. I'm glad to be here. And that's why I'm here. I would not do it for anyone else. I know you were tapping, tapping your wristwatch. Yeah. Yeah. I know, uh, uh, Jenny was very interested in Animal Crossing immediately prior to this. She was just like, yeah, do your podcast. You don't get this back until you're done.
00:03:17
Speaker
Like, okay, I don't play Switch in the middle of the podcast. New segment, Jake quietly plays Switch. It's just like the Joy-Con sounds, and that's all it is, just background noise. ASMR. Maybe, yeah.
00:03:37
Speaker
That could be a fun channel. Let's do that. Maybe an ASMR episode or something? Let's not. We have a few listeners that we need to maintain. Yeah, I'm going to stop there. That's a bad idea. I'll partake of ASMR, but I don't think I'm producer of that particular sphere. That's fair.
00:04:01
Speaker
But I have no segue.
Women in Video Games
00:04:04
Speaker
I thought I tried to think of something. Oh, I have a segue then. Perfect. And this is very natural. I do have a friend that says that they can't listen to men do ASMR because it's not calming. It triggers the flight response of, oh, no, there's a man quietly whispering in my ear. I need more a feminine voice instead.
00:04:29
Speaker
I realize this is meant to be a segue into the discussion of women representation in games, things like that. Oh, what? But I remember literally reading a YouTube comment once on an ASMR video that was basically this. It was a haircut type thing. And then one of the comments was that you hear a man clear his throat or something like that. And they're like, oh, no, there's an actual guy there. And someone's comment just said, I can't do it if there's a man present. And I'm like, what are you?
00:04:58
Speaker
What's going on here? Right? Like that was such a weird comment. It stuck with me to this day. I don't usually read comments. But it makes, it makes sense. That's not the only person I've heard have that response. It's just weird. It's definitely the weirdest possible way to word it. Oh, no doubt. Also, I like how my knee jerk reaction is not that sexist. It's like, that sounds about right. Men don't have the best reputation across the board. Yeah.
00:05:28
Speaker
on comments on the internet? I just mean for statistics to do creepier bad
Evolving Portrayals of Female Characters
00:05:35
Speaker
things. It's like, eh. Oh, yeah. Eh.
00:05:39
Speaker
Speaking of creeping in bad things, video games and women's portrayal in them should be here. I'll take the second segue. The first one, we just let it go. Yeah. So obviously, Dave and I are experts on this topic, but we thought it pertinent and in a rare display of
00:06:02
Speaker
actual awareness perhaps of the situation. We would like you to also state your opinions, thoughts and hot takes if necessary. Oh, yes, exactly. This is the first time that Jake has given a guest permission to voice their opinion and feedback. So chivalrous. But yeah, my qualifications are I'm a woman. I'm not in games, but
00:06:29
Speaker
You know, I have part of part of it. So that's that's why I'm here, folks. But you're a real gamer. Oh, yeah, I'm a girl gamer. Yeah. The ordering of those words is very important. It's either gamer girl or girl gamer. Oh, right. Right. OK, good. Good. Like qualifications are. I've been here for a long time. That's about it.
00:06:55
Speaker
I played a game with a girl in it once. Oh, what was that? Let's see who put me on the spot here. Well, my negative example is going to be the Witcher one, but we'll get to that, I guess. But I suppose this is a very broad topic. So someone have a starting point for us, perhaps a game, something historical. I mean, I want to go to the knee jerk reaction example of
00:07:24
Speaker
uh where are women not represented so great in video games and that would be dead or live beach volleyball which is just jiggle physics the game but the thing is the thing the thing about jiggle physics that you really have to think about is that's not actually how they jiggle even like it's still it's not accurate and you know so it's just double that
00:07:47
Speaker
Right. Double D. Sorry. Basically, I never played Dead or Alive because I think for all the reasons you're going to mention about how it's not a great representation of women in games, my parents wouldn't let me play Dead or Alive.
Impact of Game Design on Perceptions
00:08:08
Speaker
Not because they cared about the representation of women in games, but it was more like sexual content. No.
00:08:16
Speaker
Yeah, Dead or Live as a fighting game series will typically have as you take somebody's health down like they've had this in some other games like armor pieces will break off but for a lot of Dead or Live it's like standard clothes so it's just like oh she's wearing a bridal gown oh it's kind of torn in some places or whatever it goes down like everybody has a bikini underneath type thing and that's just the fighting game Dead or Live Beach Volleyball is just
00:08:42
Speaker
How many different stereotypes of different anime girls can we have with various sizes of boobs and butts? Oh, my gosh. Peak gaming, everyone. How old is this? Ish. A bit, at least 15, 10, 15 years. Wow. All right. So that's a great place to start, right, is let's go back in video game history.
00:09:09
Speaker
It's awful. I mean, there's really nothing good to say about Dead or Alive Beach volleyball. But something else we were talking about also is Tomb Raider is a hot take on the original, one of the most recognizable women in games because of literally, they thought it was funny to give her huge boobs, the end, play our game.
00:09:35
Speaker
I guess like the difference for me that maybe you guys can elucidate the point a little bit. It seems like there is kind of a fundamental difference between
00:09:44
Speaker
This character is just like an icon. They're meant to just be looked at. And like Tomb Raider, like the personality, like Lara Croft does have, you know, who played, who was the actress in the movies? Was it Angelina Jolie? Angelina Jolie? Yeah. Like there's a lot of famous backing for this character. And I mean, sex appeal is part of it, but there's definitely more there, I would argue.
00:10:13
Speaker
Oh yeah. Sex appeal is also fine. It's one of those things is just having a sexy woman that's not wrong. It's that if it actually adds to the character, if it's actually part of their personality and what they're trying to bring to the table. Whereas I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but going back to
00:10:36
Speaker
when Tomb Raider came out there were interviews on so what happens with the with a chest of the character and they're like oh whoopsie move this move the slider too high like it was it was a joke between the guys who worked there if you know the source I read 20 years ago was accurate um so I think I think in situations like that it's a no-go but but
00:10:59
Speaker
looking at her in the later games and like how they really grew her character. No,
Progress in Female Character Representation
00:11:05
Speaker
she's she became more than just something to look at more than a few pixels. I think that's like the defining line of it's not just for the sake of objectification. Like you can have sexy people. Otherwise, I'd feel bad about my own existence. Pause for pause for laughter. Thank you. But it's really like.
00:11:29
Speaker
It's just an attribute about them. Like you shouldn't have ugly characters because you don't want to be like, oh, you can only have sexy characters for games. It's really just that's another facet of their being. If they're growing as a character and you can like them as a character. Sure.
00:11:43
Speaker
make them attractive or maybe have them in different outfits that fits the thing. Or maybe do like a sexy one off thing where there's like an LOL type pose and it's like a one. It's a bit and people are like, oh, remember that thing is so funny. But it's not like near where it's like, hey, it's all for the purpose of, I mean, granted the sexualization of it. Right. There's places for it, I think.
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah, I know we're going to talk about it in here, but I did want to mention, at least since you brought up the new Tomb Raider games, Rachel, like I played one of them and I never played one of some of the old ones, but that was basically the only thing I knew about Lara Croft was like very large polygons and playing the new one, it's so de-emphasized. Like, is the character pretty? Yes, absolutely.
00:12:35
Speaker
what is her chest size by comparison, like the moon to the earth by comparison to what it was. It's just so deemphasized and they focus on other aspects of her personality, like surviving and, you know, like overcoming these harsh conditions. And it's just a more interesting take on it, I guess.
00:12:57
Speaker
And actually giving her the character growth of, I have not played the games myself, but I was talking to my brother about it and something that really stayed with him is the impact of the first time she killed someone and actually making you like feel that experience and growing. And I think it shows that with her personality and who she became,
00:13:18
Speaker
If she still had the large boobs in the current games and that was part of it, that would be fine, but it just proves that, no, it really didn't give value to her as a character, that they could just get rid of it and it was fine. Right.
00:13:35
Speaker
Whereas near, I mean, like there's a full near falls into like the genre of fan service, like characters, I guess. And there's a lot of them out there. I feel like anytime you have Japan involved, it's a more common occurrence. Wow. Wow. Racism and sexism. So possible devil's advocate thing. Like, do you think there's any value in having like a hot and bad ass character?
00:14:05
Speaker
to kind of like rally behind. Like I know, like, in my opinion with Nier is that it's very much more kind of fetishizing the the outfit type thing. And even Yoko Taro has said like, he chose that outfit because he knew that people would cosplay as that character.
00:14:21
Speaker
Are we talking Nier or Automata or both? Like, Kainé to me? I'd say more Automata than Kainé. OK. Yeah, I'm going to go with Automata on this. OK. I mean, I think it applies to both. I was just curious. And this is where I say that you have the wrong guest on the episode because it's one of those, like, I'm definitely into fan service and I'm into, like, I'm
00:14:48
Speaker
completely enjoy having those kind of like outfits because I'm a huge perv. And this podcast is where I out that. But at the same time, I don't know, like, I think getting us getting a trophy because you looked up her skirt, not necessarily the best, the best approach not helpful to the game.
00:15:11
Speaker
I guess to get more serious for a second, like what's the impact of this, right? Like as adults who've played like a lot of games, perhaps it's a little bit less. You're not going to see women and your life differently because of an experience with Nier, hopefully, like good geez. But for, you know, people growing up,
00:15:33
Speaker
Like there's this entire generation of people who grew up with significantly objectified women and are now being told that that's wrong. Um, because I would argue it is, um, but hot take, hot take, right? Yeah. I'll defend this one now. Um, like exclusively objectifying or, you know, to the detriment of character. Um, and video games are kind of a bastion of that. Like it persists, right? Some of the things I feel like.
00:16:04
Speaker
I don't know. There are contemporary examples, obviously, in film. Transformers was terrible with the... Megan Fox? Megan Fox, yes. Thank you. Like, she's just there for that. Like, it's all she does. It's all she is. And 2B has more personality than Megan Fox's characters in the Transformers movies, I'd argue. But again, there's clearly some intent there to just be like,
00:16:32
Speaker
I mean, the creator literally says he wants to see the cosplays. It's like, is it skeevy? I don't know. I think it's skeevy at that point. Yeah, for sure. And it's one of those, like you said, adults playing these kind of games aren't going to see people differently, sure.
00:16:51
Speaker
playing near in your foundational years, yeah, you're gonna get a 2B pillow, like you're gonna, you know, it's one of those, the fetishizing has become normalized. I think in a lot of games like it has in the anime community, throwing it back to Japan, you were right, Dave. Which I think can be extremely dangerous because it's important to show
00:17:19
Speaker
both sides and to understand the difference of this is not how we actually treat people. And I don't think that a female character should necessarily be viewed any differently as how do we make a good male character? Like, are you having are you having a guy in a skippy outfit, so he can breathe through his skin? You're solid looking at you. Like that, that's fine. But fun to fundamentally like, I think that a powerful
00:17:49
Speaker
female character doesn't have to be any different than planning a powerful male or like strong male character instead. And it's by separating these two. First off, we keep it into two genders at that point. And then future podcast episode of trans representation in in games, I see that coming.
00:18:10
Speaker
We have to like literally have some first. Exactly. I mean, yeah. So the difference is the conversation is happening and it came it came this far, right? So now we're like, oh, we should have good female characters. And then it's going to keep branching out. And I think that we have made a lot of progress. I'm saying like I've done anything with video games. We own this community. See?
00:18:41
Speaker
But there's been a lot of progress, I think, for strong personalities. I keep using the word strong. I don't have a thesaurus next to me. But personalities and dynamic characters that are more than just either a man or boobs or however. Gotcha.
00:19:01
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think strong is actually a bad word choice and that's solely because like women in games or media are traditionally like portrayed as oh