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S2 Ep9 Under New Management Lead Like a Pro with Eric Girard
48 Plays11 months ago
In this episode of Dial It In, Dave Meyer and Trygve Olsen interview Eric Girard, author and expert in helping new managers succeed in their roles. Eric shares his journey from being a poorly prepared manager to becoming an advocate for new managers. He discusses his motivation for writing his book and how he dedicated time every day for six months to complete it. Tune in to learn more about Eric's insights on effective management strategies.
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Dial It In Podcast is where we gathered our favorite people together to share their advice on how to drive revenue, through storytelling and without the boring sales jargon. Our primary focus is marketing and sales for manufacturing and B2B service businesses, but we’ll cover topics across the entire spectrum of business. This isn’t a deep, naval-gazing show… we like to have lively chats that are fun, and full of useful insights. Brought to you by BizzyWeb.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Dial It In, a podcast where we talk with interesting people about the process improvements and tricks they use to grow their businesses. I'm Dave Meyer, president of BusyWeb, and every week, Trigg Violson and I are bringing you interviews on how the best in their fields are dialing it in for their organizations.
Guest Introduction: Eric Girard
00:00:23
Speaker
Welcome to Dial It In, and we have Eric Girard today with us.
00:00:27
Speaker
Eric Girard was once a new, poorly prepared manager. He was promoted to lead his former teammates, and he did everything wrong. He vowed to work to overcome his deficiencies and help ensure those who came after him didn't repeat his mistakes. His mission is to help new managers not just survive, but to thrive in their new role. He's the author of a new book, Lead Like a Pro, The Essential Guide for New Managers. He has over 30 years experience helping improve the performance of managers and employees.
Motivation Behind 'Lead Like a Pro'
00:00:55
Speaker
Welcome, Eric Girard.
00:00:58
Speaker
Well, I think the first thing that I really want to ask you, Eric, is how does one go about writing a book? Because we've had a number of authors on the podcast before, and what prompts you to say, man, I really want to write a bunch of this down and sell it?
00:01:20
Speaker
The fact that these concepts had been bouncing around in my head for years, literally years, and the impetus actually came from a guy I was pitching business to. And he just looks at me and he's like, why haven't you written a book? I'm like, I don't know. I haven't really thought of it. I don't know. So I didn't get that gig, but that comment stuck with me. Like, I think it was a throwaway, but it stuck with me. And I'm like, well, why don't I write a book?
00:01:48
Speaker
And what I've got to say is going to be helpful to folks. It's fundamental. It's not earth shattering, bleeding edge stuff, but it's fundamental and a lot of people need it. So there's an opportunity here to be helpful to a lot of folks. And so I just thought, well, shoot, let's go. And so I set aside an hour a day for like six months and just wrote in little chunks every day. I didn't go away on a writer's retreat or anything. I just started going.
00:02:18
Speaker
And got the manuscript done. And that was really cool. And then I handed it over to a friend who's an editor. And he made some tweaks and changes to it. And then it went to another editor, another friend who is a very well-published author and editor. And she just turned it into something that was spectacular. And I'm like, hey, this has got legs. This could go somewhere. So it was unpeeling an onion, discovering as I went.
00:02:47
Speaker
So I still can't believe that it did as well as it did. It's amazing to me. I'm very grateful. The book is Lead Like a Pro, the essential guide for new managers.
Challenges in Transitioning to Management
00:03:00
Speaker
And I think one of the things that I think is just so fascinating about your whole enterprise, Eric, is that you really do focus on people's transition into management and how they've grown into the next step of their lives where they are responsible for more things they are responsible for.
00:03:19
Speaker
more people. And I remember there was a time in my life where I really wanted to be a manager. And then when I became a manager, I was like, whoa, I don't know. No, thank you. Let me go back. So what are some of the characteristics that make people suddenly rise to the level of management? I would imagine circumstances one, but what are some of the others?
00:03:45
Speaker
Well, circumstance I think is a big one. And that's what I saw happen around me in Silicon Valley was that people were tapped to be promoted because they were the best trainer, the best instructional designer, the best filler in the blank. And I saw in my companies, I saw the best engineers being pulled out and promoted. And just because you're a great individual contributor does not mean you're going to be any good at managing and leading people.
00:04:10
Speaker
It means that you're really good at your craft, which is excellent. And some folks believe, and I think mistakenly that the only way up is to transition into people management, into leadership.
00:04:22
Speaker
And they don't realize that there are other ways to advance and earn more money and have more responsibility. They don't involve leading people. So I'm talking primarily to those folks who are manager curious, maybe interested in it, or maybe they just got promoted and they're like, oh geez, what does this actually entail?
Target Audience and Book Insights
00:04:44
Speaker
And that's my primary audience is you're just on the cusp of being promoted or you just got promoted. And then there are also those folks who have been managing, who are kind of a de facto manager for years and never received any training. And so the book kind of parachutes in and says, Hey, you might've been doing this for three, five, 10 years. Let's fill in some gaps for you and help you learn how to delegate more effectively, set goals, provide coaching and feedback in a way that works.
00:05:13
Speaker
so that you don't torture your teams. Because it happened to me. I was on a team of three people in Silicon Valley, and my boss came to me and said, hey, you expressed interest in management. Here you go. You get to lead your team. And I was like, great. I'll do it. And then he said, OK. And by the way, one of your team members says I'm in a problem, and I want them gone.
00:05:36
Speaker
So I got sandbagged, and right away, I had to performance manage somebody out of the organization, and it was just a nightmare, just an absolute nightmare. So if I had a book like this that really explained, here's what to expect, and if I'd gone through a course, I'm building a course based on the book, if I'd gone through a course like this, I would have been like, okay, now I'm prepared. I'm still interested, but now I'm prepared, versus the onsides that I got when I started.
00:06:04
Speaker
Well, it's, uh, and I know Dave's got a question. I want to make sure that I let him jump in, but you don't have a training training course.
Courses and Management Training
00:06:12
Speaker
You've got what, almost two dozen. Uh, no, I've got about 20 courses. What are some of the courses?
00:06:21
Speaker
So the one that I'm building now is going to be named after the book. So it'll be called Lead Like a Pro. And it's going to cruise through the same topics as the book. Other courses include things like managing teams. I'm certified in DISC, which is a work styles preferences inventory. I'm certified in situational leadership, SL2.
00:06:44
Speaker
I've got courses on time management and prioritization. Change management is big for me. So kind of the stuff that a new or mildly experienced manager needs in order to run a team well, that's where I focus. Got it. Well, and so as you came up, and I think you already kind of gave us a little bit of the background on why, but
00:07:08
Speaker
you know, your experience as a brand new manager, all of a sudden, hey, you're, you're in the fire. Uh, I had a similar experience when I was just starting at, uh, one of the big banks in, in the country that, um, they threw me into management and they had a person immediately that basically just took a whole ton of time off. And it was an HR concern.
00:07:32
Speaker
And she just started making up things on why she couldn't be there. And she was a good friend of mine, which is very, which is very weird, but I found myself in that struggle. So as a brand new manager, I agree it would have been amazing to have proper tools. Are there other reasons to get management training as soon as possible in the management lifestyle?
00:07:56
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say that the biggest thing is employee satisfaction. Your employees experience at work. One of the things I like to say is that as a manager, you kind of define reality for your employees. You set the tone. Leadership is about going first, and if you lead the way holding that banner,
00:08:18
Speaker
with attitudes that aren't helpful, with techniques that aren't helpful, then you're going to affect everybody behind you, your entire team. They're not going to perform well. They're not going to be happy at work. They're going to quietly quit or loudly quit. And it's going to be a real problem for the organization. So if you're a great leader and you understand how to do things like delegate and set goals and provide feedback and coach,
00:08:48
Speaker
and do that well and do that kindly and with empathy, then you're going to have a team that wants to overperform and you're going to have a team that knocks out of the park and really impresses your boss and the people above you and you're going to get noticed. And that's going to be good for you. It's going to be good for your team members and it's going to be good for the organization. And so there's just lots of ROI for learning how to lead and manage well.
00:09:16
Speaker
I suppose just the natural bent of most management is to just throw them in, especially when you're brand new or you're young in the management world. But you're right. I mean, there's so many opportunities to really grow fast. If you have the right training in mind, whereas if you just kind of fumble around in the woods, it's just wasting everybody's time. I completely agree. Yeah, absolutely.
00:09:45
Speaker
One of the things I love about you, Eric, is on your website, and I'm going to quote this because I think it's awesome, is it's like the first thing on your website. It says, Eric Girard was once a new poorly prepared manager. He was promoted to lead his former teammates, and he did everything wrong, which I just love because you're owning that and using it as a tool to help people grow. So what are some of the things that
00:10:14
Speaker
to use the old Bob Seger line. What do you wish you didn't know now that you didn't know then?
Importance of SMART Goals
00:10:21
Speaker
Well, I already told the origin story of how I got sandbagged and thrown in, right? What I wish I had done was ignored my boss, who said, I want you to manage this person out. I wish I had said, hang on a sec. Let me start fresh with this team and see what I can do.
00:10:40
Speaker
And I wish I had done what I write about now, which is let's talk about getting to know each other really well. And let me make that transition from individual contributor to manager, you know, that, that, you know, being an excellent doer to being an excellent leader, which is an entirely different set of skills. So there's a fantastic book. What got you here won't get you there. It won't, you know, just because I was a great program manager does not mean I was a great leader.
00:11:09
Speaker
So I needed to make that transition and I didn't really do it. Learning how to set goals with the team. Okay. You're responsible for this. You're responsible for this. I'm responsible for that. And doing it in a transparent way would have helped an awful lot. Delegating well would have been really useful. I didn't really delegate. I hung onto a lot of stuff.
Developing Empathy in Management
00:11:29
Speaker
Providing feedback in a kind forthright way. Brene Brown says that clear is kind, unclear is unkind.
00:11:39
Speaker
I gave feedback, but it was so nitpicky and so granular and so petty. I'm ashamed to think about some of the things that I said. I was like, I can't believe I did that. But I was under tremendous stress and didn't really know any better. And so I just did what I could. And I really wish that I had taken time to develop myself first or been developed before I jumped into that role.
00:12:08
Speaker
Perfect. Well, that's so important on why things for managers as they're coming down to really get their ground under them. I think one of the things as
00:12:22
Speaker
I experienced my new management role and it sounds like for you as well, you just didn't really have proper goals. And I know I didn't for sure. They were just like, oh yeah, just go do this thing. So can you explain like how when you're working with a new manager or in the book, how is goal setting like a core start? And is there a space or a framework that you use?
00:12:49
Speaker
when goal setting if you're a new manager? Oh, yeah. I use smart
Team-building and Boundaries
00:12:54
Speaker
goals, which are very common. The framework's been around forever. I also touch on OKRs, John Doar's OKRs framework. But I like smart goals because it's well-established and it's simple. It's easy. So first off, a good goal defines four things. A good goal should define who does what, how much, and by when.
00:13:18
Speaker
And then a good goal is also smart. It's specific, it's measurable, it's achievable, or it's aligned, it's relevant, and it's time bound. So there's a timeline for this thing.
00:13:32
Speaker
And so if you spend some time putting together good, smart goals with your team, and what I would suggest is, you know, rather than as you, rather than as the manager coming down from on high saying, here are your goals, which I think is a huge mistake, get the team together. If you can physically, and if you can't
Coaching and Feedback Techniques
00:13:50
Speaker
virtually via zoom.
00:13:51
Speaker
and use some version of Post-it notes and Sharpies. So either literally Post-it notes and Sharpies and a blank wall in a conference room or a mural board or a jam board or something like that and say, okay, everybody write one goal per Post-it and stick it up on the board so that everybody else can see it and just go. In this first round, we're just going to brainstorm. So just barf out ideas. Just get them up on the board, right?
00:14:18
Speaker
After the board is covered, then you start to bucket them and put them into groups where they seem to go together. Then you start to ask questions and clarify and maybe poke and prod a little bit, but that first round is all about just generating ideas. Then you start to get it bucketed, you clarify them, you take out duplicates and things like that, and then you say, okay, now let's get these things assigned. Grab the goals that make sense for your role.
00:14:47
Speaker
and everybody grabs their goals. Then you as the manager, you all take a gallery walk and take a look and see who's got what. Then you as the manager have the prerogative to say, okay, you know what? Trigov, you've got seven goals and Dave, you've got four. Trigov, I'm going to take some of your goals and move them over a little bit. That's your prerogative as a manager. Everybody sees what everybody else is doing.
00:15:11
Speaker
And you get buy-in because it's all transparent. It's not done in secret. And I think that that is a huge component of what makes that process work is, you know, people get a chance to poke and prod and ask questions and you don't end the process until everybody's bought in. And then you go and you're ready to go. Cause I know what you're up to. I know what trigger this up to. I'm ready to go. Well, you guys have been so good to sharing your management stories. I know when I got pushed into management.
00:15:42
Speaker
It was by a guy who was a great mentor and it was a deserved promotion and I became assistant manager under him. And then that was on a Tuesday and on Friday he quit. And so then I was the man and I had no concept of anything and within about a month
00:16:03
Speaker
One of my employees who was a woman, I remember this very distinctly, she had worn the same outfit three days in a row and people were commenting on it. And so I had a conversation with her about it. And Eric, just like you said, I completely regret it. I should have handled it completely differently. There was any number of plausible explanations. Really, I should not have talked to her about it. It's still one of the things that I cringe about now looking back on it, which is almost 20 years later.
00:16:33
Speaker
One of the things that you talked about is having empathy and management. How can managers effectively use empathy as a tool? To me, it goes back to being a good human. I think that managers need to be just generally good people. That means things like listening well, building rapport, creating a connection with people.
00:17:00
Speaker
That I think is table stakes for, you know, if you're going to manage people, then you need to know how to build relationships with people. It comes down to asking questions and listening deeply.
Building Empathy as a Leader
00:17:11
Speaker
And in my book, I talk about different levels of listening, you know, everything from you're talking and I'm thinking about what I'm going to say all the way through to you're talking and I'm really connecting to you and really understanding what you're trying to say. So first off, just practicing being a really good listener in general.
00:17:29
Speaker
Then with empathy, Daniel Goleman in his book, Emotional Intelligence, talks about three different levels of empathy, starting from cognitive empathy, where I'm thinking about what you're feeling. Maybe the catchphrase for that one is, you're talking and I'm thinking about, wow, that must suck. The phrase might be, wow, sucks to be you. Then you've got emotional empathy, where you're starting to actually feel what the other person feels.
00:18:00
Speaker
And that's where we channel Bill Clinton and say and mean, I feel your pain. And then you've got, um, this third level of empathy where it's, it's beyond thinking and it's beyond feeling, but it's about being compassionate and saying, I'm ready to jump in and help you. And, and when we're in this third level of empathy, this compassionate empathy, um, level oxytocin is being produced.
00:18:28
Speaker
in the brain and oxytocin is the same hormone, the same chemical that's released when parents are taking care of their new baby. So you're holding this tiny little human being and you're like, I will do anything for you. That's oxytocin. And when you feel that level of caring for another human being, you are really ready to help them out.
00:18:49
Speaker
But not everybody is naturally that empathetic. Not everybody is ready to dive right into that. In the book, I talk about a couple of things you can do to build those levels of empathy. Things like just starting to go places you wouldn't normally go and put yourself in situations you wouldn't normally be in so you get out of your bubble.
00:19:10
Speaker
and you start to experience other people's point of view, the key thing that I talk about is walking a mile in other people's shoes. And so, for example, one thing that I'm gonna do...
00:19:21
Speaker
is go find opportunities to actually serve the homeless face to face. I've been giving money to homeless organizations for years. I give bags of stuff to homeless people in the corner. I'll give food and I'll give supplies and things to folks in the corners, but I've never actually sat down and had a meal with a homeless person. And so I was like, you know what? That to me is going to be how I'm going to build empathy for people who are unhoused, is I'm going to go sit and have a meal.
00:19:48
Speaker
So can you put yourself in a situation like that where you're experiencing different things that cause you to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes? Those are some things that you can do that are simple and complicated at the same time where you can build empathy.
00:20:06
Speaker
I just, I just remember that when my son was born, I was utterly, I didn't have oxytocin. I was, I had utter terror because they, because here's what happens is your wife is hasn't slept in weeks and you're tired too. And here's this tiny creature and go take it into a warm room with lullaby music on with the lights off, but don't drop it and don't fall asleep. So I, I had a much different experience.
00:20:36
Speaker
My funniest story of the girls, so I have twin 14 year old girls and we got one of those glider rockers when they were born. And so when it was my turn to put them to sleep or whatever, I would take both of them and sort of cuddle them in my arms and sit in the rocker and I would rock. You know, we'd be dark in the room and we'd be rocking. Maybe there's some music. We're just hanging out.
00:21:04
Speaker
And I'm exhausted. They're tired. And so we all fall asleep. I would start snoring, sitting upright in this chair. I would start snoring. And I remember, I don't know whose hand it was, but some little tiny hand reached up behind them, grabbed my lips and pushed through this shirt.
00:21:23
Speaker
Perfect. It was so fun. As only a daughter can do. Yes. Oh, I love that. I think tying it back to management, I think for the experience of working with someone and trying to build empathy for them, especially if you're thrust into the management role early or without proper preparation, you have a tendency to think, oh, I'm the most important person in the room because I'm a manager.
00:21:52
Speaker
and truly effective managers, at least to me, feel like the ones that really do understand that it's about serving the people that quote unquote work for you.
00:22:03
Speaker
So as you're building that empathy, I love the exercises and the ideas of, okay, well, let's do something. That could also be team building, right? So bringing everybody out together, and we all work together at the homeless shelter to say, okay, well, not only do we all have it much better than we thought we did, but hey, let's all just serve and see what that feels like, and then maybe we can all work together as a team.
00:22:32
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Team building is really important and I would, some team building can be very simple. It could be as simple as, Hey, let's go do something like, let's go bowling. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be complicated. And especially if you set it up where it's like, look, we don't expect you to be a good bowler. Like that's not the point of this. The point is to hang out.
00:22:54
Speaker
And there'll be food, and there'll be drinks, and there'll be music, and we'll be talking. And oh, by the way, if you want a bowl, that's fine. But there's something to do. I've played bocce ball in Los Gatos, California, and done all kinds of really neat things. But it just comes down to just hang out with these people and get to know them better.
00:23:12
Speaker
One thing I do want to say is that with all this talk around empathy, your listeners might be thinking, oh, geez, I now have to take on every single problem my employees have. That's not the case. I'm a big advocate of boundaries. I'm a big advocate of saying, hey, you know what? I'm here for you. I'm happy to listen. And at the same time, and I care for you. And at the same time, I need to hold you accountable.
00:23:42
Speaker
And, you know, there's performance that's expected that we need to figure out. And so we need to talk about how we get you from this trough that you might be in back up to your previous good performance. And then depending on the organization, there might be an employee assistance plan. There might be other things. There might be HR that you can refer folks to to say, Hey, you know, I am not a counselor. I'm not a therapist.
00:24:06
Speaker
but I know how to get you one and I'll help you with that so that you don't take on more than you're capable of.
00:24:15
Speaker
It feels like this is something of an art form. Is there a process or a set of guidelines that you run folks through to coach and provide feedback to employees without letting them put the monkey on your back or without getting out of hand? Because that is important. You do have to have delicate conversations with people sometimes about the person. You do. Yeah.
00:24:41
Speaker
And it's funny that you said monkey because there's a book in the harvard business review called who's got the monkey Which is a it's a fantastic article that was written in the 70s 70s and then republished in the 90s about delegation and degrees of authority And i'd really encourage folks to pick that up. It's free off of the hbr website and it's a it's a great opportunity to think about
00:25:06
Speaker
How far do I let people go before I need them to check in with me and how do I encourage them to not come to me for every little thing? Do some thinking and come to me with a possible solution. It doesn't have to be right, but just come to me having done some thought, some thinking before you say, hey, this is broken and can you help me fix it?
Feedback and Coaching Models
00:25:28
Speaker
It's like, well, what have you already tried?
00:25:32
Speaker
So the frameworks I use for feedback and coaching are, again, very simple. I keep them simple. For coaching, I use the GRO model, which is well known. And GRO stands for goals, reality, options, way forward. And so during a coaching conversation, either party can start the GRO conversation. This is what I want to talk about for goals. This is how things are right now.
00:25:59
Speaker
This is what I have tried or what I could do. And this is what I will do in order to move forward. And it's a very fluid model, so you don't have to stick to it linearly. You can keep going from G to R to O, back to G if you need to redo the goals, and so on.
00:26:16
Speaker
There's also a fantastic book by Michael Bunge Standier called The Coaching Habit. And he comes up with seven questions that you can ask during a coaching conversation. So I love to feather the grow model in with his seven questions to go deep into. So what's going on now? What could you do? What do you need from me? So a good one, two punch there with coaching.
00:26:43
Speaker
With feedback, I use the SBI model. Again, something that's well-known. Situation, behavior, impact. This is a situation where this thing occurred. This is a behavior I observed, so it's actually something that you could film on your phone. And then the impact is your subjective version of the impact it had on you or on others. And you can use SBI for positive and constructive feedback.
00:27:11
Speaker
You know, for example, feedback I gave my graphic designer for those slides she made for, for lead like a pro, the new course. Sandra, when you made the slides for this course, there's a situation.
Podcast Sponsorship Break
00:27:24
Speaker
You used amazing graphic design techniques and great instructional design techniques to ensure that learners were able to track and apply what they learned. There's the behavior.
00:27:35
Speaker
And I think that resulted in a fantastic course that is going to really engage learners and keep them from tuning out. Thank you. There's the impact. Really easy, just takes a little practice and then boom, you're providing actionable feedback. People know where they stand. It's clear, going back to Brene Brown's quote, and there's no guessing about where I stand.
00:28:00
Speaker
Well, Trigby, I think it's time for a quick break in our podcast. Yep, it's the first time we've got a sponsor, so pause for a second and we'll come back with Eric and just a bit.
00:28:13
Speaker
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00:28:30
Speaker
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00:28:55
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:29:41
Speaker
All right, we're back. First time ever we had a sponsor. That was awesome. Thanks to them. Distinguished sponsor. Wow. Distinguished sponsor. Absolutely.
Blurring Lines: Management vs. Leadership
00:29:50
Speaker
Eric, I'm going to ask you a question I think will hopefully spur a lot of conversation is what are some fundamental differences between management and leadership?
00:30:00
Speaker
I think they're related. And I think there's a little bit of a maybe Pandora's box isn't the right analogy here, but there's a little bit of does one beget the other sort of a thing. So I think in order to be a good manager, you need to be a good leader. And I think that there are good leaders out there who are not managers. And I also think that there are managers out there who are not good leaders.
00:30:30
Speaker
So they come together. And I think that a lot of what I talk about in the book and what I teach blur the line between management and leadership. Because there are some people who will say, oh, management is like the blocking and tackling. Management is the technical side of things. And leadership is more the soft skills. And I would say, well, first off, I wouldn't call them soft skills. I'd call them power skills.
00:30:53
Speaker
Things like goal setting and delegation and feedback and coaching, that's a power skill. Learning how to do that well will fundamentally change the dynamic of your team. And so I think that there's a bit of a blurred line between management and leadership. And in the book, I actually address this because folks will say, well, what's the difference? Are you talking to managers or leaders? I'm like, well, actually talking to both.
00:31:23
Speaker
I want managers to be good leaders. I want managers to be good human beings who can build relationships with people, who can ask good questions, who can coach well, who can hold people accountable through good feedback, and also get the day-to-day done. I think that that's the line that I straddle with management and leadership.
00:31:45
Speaker
I think, to me, I've always strived that if I tweak the people that work for me and keep them on course, then I get to LEED and I don't have to manage and I don't have to get down to the weeds and have to review KPIs and, you know, hey, how long did you spend on the phone this week?
00:32:11
Speaker
But if I have them focused on their ultimate goals and I'm coaching them along the way, then I get to be a leader and I don't have to be a manager. Because I think I'm one of those people that I think that I don't really get excited about having to have discussions about performance with people. It's not fun for me. I don't think it's fun for anybody.
00:32:39
Speaker
And it doesn't excite me to have to remind people like, Hey, are you, are you doing your job this week? And, you know, stuff like that. I was thinking the old Homer Simpson, there's a great home Simpsons episode where, um, he, uh, gets hired by James Bond, super villain to run the, run the, uh, run a nuclear plant for the, the super villain. And all he goes in and he asks the guys, Oh, how, how, how hard are you guys? What are you guys doing? Oh, we're working. Mr. Simpson.
00:33:09
Speaker
Oh, okay. Could you work harder? And they go, oh yes, sir. And they start working harder. So that's, that's, that's the management style I go with. If you're leading, then you can do that. I wanted to circle back to Eric. I think you're probably the same age that Dave and I are. And I think one of the things that
00:33:31
Speaker
Dave and I both sometimes struggle with is delegation because especially if you have a complex thing that you're working through and especially for entrepreneurs, I think that if you've grown and cycled your business by doing a lot of the work yourself, having to pass it off to other people is a challenge and a couple of fronts. One is trust and two is sometimes it's just easier if you do it yourself.
00:33:57
Speaker
and that's not actually helpful. So can you give us some strategies of how you can delegate effectively? Yeah, that of course has its own chapter.
00:34:10
Speaker
And yeah, I think a big trap that new managers fall into is, it's just easier if I do it myself. It'll be better. It'll be faster. Let me just do it myself. And then they become, they get into the hero complex and they start working crazy hours and the rest of the team is like, well, what do we do?
00:34:28
Speaker
because the manager is doing everything. And so I think the first thing is to really do an assessment of your tasks and think about what must I actually do myself? What really must I do myself? And then taking an honest inventory of what, pardon me, what could I delegate? And then what could I share?
00:34:55
Speaker
Because there's that third possibility that a lot of people don't even think about of, oh, I could share that? Didn't even know. So doing that inventory first. And then secondly, when you decide that you are going to delegate, being really, really clear about what do you expect? So what does good look like? And how do we know when you're done?
00:35:19
Speaker
And at what point do you need to check in with me? So that goes back to the Who's Got the Monkey article about how far can you run before you need to check in with me? Everywhere from I'm going to sit and wait to be told all the way through to I'm just going to run with this and not even tell you about it. And then in between all these degrees of freedom that you discuss with your employee
00:35:42
Speaker
but being very clear about what does good look like, making sure that people have the resources they need to be successful. And a big part of this is viewing delegation as an investment.
00:35:54
Speaker
So in my business, when I started Gerard Training Solutions, I thought, you know what? I'll do it all myself. I'm a solopreneur. I'll do everything myself. I will design, develop, deliver the courses. I will create the branded PowerPoint decks. I will do my own bookkeeping. I will run my own website. I can do it all. I'm really smart. I can figure it out. And I wound up being overwhelmed. And not only was I overwhelmed, but I was making mistakes.
00:36:17
Speaker
Because I wasn't actually as good as I thought I was at all these things. And so for example, the website turned into a morass. And the first thing I did was hire my friend Sandra to come in and clean up the website. And she knocked that out of the park. And I'm like, okay, how would you feel about taking on the slide deck?
00:36:33
Speaker
creation. She's like, Sure. And she knocked that out of the park. So just, she showed me what she could do, which made it easier for me to hand more and more to her. So giving her small tasks, and then, you know, giving her bigger and bigger tasks until, you know, I just rely on her completely for so many things.
00:36:49
Speaker
And then with the bookkeeping, I was using QuickBooks self-employed, which is so, so simple. I thought, I got this. This is so easy. And then I handed my books off to my accountant at the end of the year. And in return, I got a bill for $1,000 to fix all my mistakes.
00:37:05
Speaker
So then I hired a bookkeeper. So there are things that I had to learn the hard way that I'm not as good as I think I am at all these things. And so it finally got to a point where, OK, what is it that I really must do as a CEO of Jora Training Solutions? What must I do that has to have my face and name on it?
00:37:27
Speaker
And then what are the other things that I can delegate off? Things like producing my virtual programs and running the website and graphic design and bookkeeping and marketing. I'm no good at marketing, so I've got a marketing manager. And publicity, those are all things that actually once I brought in the right person, it was a relief to get it off my chest.
00:37:55
Speaker
And it was an investment in time. I had to invest a lot to get the expectations clear. But once they were clear, I now can go to Sandra, for example, and say, hey, will you look this over and let me know what tweaks need to be made? And boom, it's done. And I get it back in 24 hours. And it's much more detailed than I would have even thought of. So I want to change gears just for a sec, because I think one of the biggest things that we all deal with in
00:38:21
Speaker
management or in running business or being entrepreneurs or really in daily life is the fact that change is the true constant.
Frameworks for Managing Change
00:38:29
Speaker
So things are flying at you and you have finally got things figured out but all of a sudden all the rules are changing. You need to do something new in marketing or you need to take on this new thing or maybe a client has thrown a big wrench into the works.
00:38:47
Speaker
Do you have some tips on how to manage that constant change as a man? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That also gets its own chapter. Well, boy, we're going through chapter by chapter. It's like you've got the book in front of you. So. I think the first thing to realize is what you said is that change is constant. Change is constantly going to be happening to us.
00:39:11
Speaker
and understanding that reactions to change are normal. So there are a couple of different models that I talk about.
00:39:20
Speaker
when it comes to change. And my favorite is Elizabeth Kubler Ross's change curve. And this is based on her work on grief and death and dying, and it's greatly simplified. So I use a greatly simplified version of it where for any given change, you can expect, and you can expect to see your employees experience four things, denial, resistance, exploration, and commitment.
00:39:45
Speaker
So starting from that's not going to affect me, that's not going to change anything to, no, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go through this. And then your job as a manager is to coach folks along so that they get to exploration. Huh? What's in it for me? What do I get if I get on board with this change? And then finally, the commitment where you're signed up and you're on board. And so your job as a manager is to recognize these four
00:40:14
Speaker
phases in yourself and then recognize them in other people and do what you can to coach folks along and get them out of resistance because folks will get hung up in resistance and stay there. And how do you keep them moving into, well, what's in it for me? What do I get for this? And my favorite phrase here is with them. What's in it for me? And so always, always answer the with them question.
00:40:39
Speaker
So if we change the payroll system, we change the timekeeping system, we change who owns our company, we change our CEO. What's in it for you? There's something in it for you. Let's find that.
00:40:52
Speaker
And that gets folks up to commitment faster. And then just realizing that that change curve happens over and over again for each change. And depending on how crazy things are in the world, could be a change a day or more and more. So helping folks move through each change in a healthy way is your job as a manager. And then it comes back down to coaching. Eric, you're a Boy Scout, right? Not anymore. You used to be.
00:41:21
Speaker
Well, of course not anymore, but I think you aged out of the program. How high up did you get? I was an Eagle Scout with three palms, order the arrow, ran a camp staff. I was big into it until I was about 21.
Eric's Path to Learning and Development
00:41:38
Speaker
Amazing. Well, we've got Trigby classed out then. Yeah, this is my social post when I nod politely and I act like I know everything. I'm an Eagle too. I only had one palm, but I was order of the arrow as well.
00:41:51
Speaker
You know, all of those things, one of my bio parts is I know how to tie knots with the best of them, right? So is there, is there some things, and I know that I got a ton out of it, but are there, are there some things from the Scouts and from the program that you took to your training management?
00:42:08
Speaker
That's how I got into learning and development. So I've been in learning and development for over 30 years professionally. But it started when I was 15 in the Boy Scouts. And I was working on the waterfront at my local camp, summer camp. And I was teaching kids how to swim and paddle a canoe and row a boat. And I used to love it when a kid would really struggle with something like that. I still remember this one kid I was working with who could not get the canoe to pivot, to turn around.
00:42:37
Speaker
And I worked with him and worked with him and we finally took a break and I told him to relax. It was not that big of a deal. It was just a merit badge. And he went away and he came back the next day and he nailed it, just nailed it. And I'm like, dude, that's awesome, you know, and lots of praise and he was proud of himself and I was proud of him. And I'm like, I like this. So, you know, learning how to teach started in the Boy Scouts for me.
00:43:00
Speaker
And, um, that, that carried through to today, you know, just that, that loving to see the, the, the light bulbs pop over people's heads is where that started. And funnily enough, you know, I started teaching on the waterfront at Camp Wolfboro in California. I still teach in the water because for fun on weekends, I teach scuba. So there's still, so there's still water involved.
00:43:27
Speaker
Well, and that's like a whole different level, right? Because not only are you teaching people how to do something, but if they do it wrong, they're going to drown. So yeah, it's much more intense. I'm open water certain and my instructor was very different than I'm sure yours was because I did mine in Jamaica and we did our final test in 75 feet of water on the bottom instead of under 20. So I was like, I was like, you have a beard man, you'll be fine man. I was like, okay.
00:43:57
Speaker
but it is what it is. Scuba is entirely different. Did you take some tips from that experience into management as well?
00:44:07
Speaker
You know, the thing that crosses over between what I do professionally and what I do for fun in terms of teaching is the incremental nature of teaching. Like I talk to people all the time. I love to talk about teaching scuba and people who don't understand scuba, don't know scuba, haven't done it. They're like, Oh, wow. Like I could never do that. Like I could never just get in the water and start to scuba.
00:44:31
Speaker
And my response is, well, you don't like you start, you start in your living room or your office in an e-learning program and you get that academic exposure to everything first. So you're exposed to everything on a cognitive level first. Then you come to the shop and we sit in a classroom and we talk about that and we can get your questions answered. Then we go out to the pool and we learn about the gear by setting it up a couple of times.
00:45:01
Speaker
Then you get into the water, which is 75 degrees. No, pardon me, 87 degrees and very, very comfortable. And I'm going to hand you your gear and teach you how to put it on in the water. And for the first hour, we're going to stay in the shallow land. You know, you're going to take your first breath underwater by just bending over and sticking your face in the water and breathing through the regulator. Like there's no throwing you in the deep end. There's none of that. It's a very well thought out progression.
00:45:30
Speaker
through two days in the pool and at any point you can opt out and say, you know what, this is not for me. And we get to the end and I look at somebody and I'm like, I don't think you're ready for the ocean yet. I don't bring you to the ocean. I don't force anybody to go to the ocean.
00:45:48
Speaker
And then when we get to the ocean, there's no surprises. Like you've learned everything you need to learn. You're just demonstrating them in a different environment. And so it's a very controlled, well thought out, well designed process that gets people to the desired end state, which is I'm a scuba diver.
00:46:08
Speaker
But we don't just throw you in. And so it's the same in management training as well. I don't just throw people in.
Hands-on Management Training
00:46:15
Speaker
There's some warm up and there's some getting ready to prepare, to commence, to get started before we actually do it.
00:46:22
Speaker
building some muscle memory and how to interact with people. And yeah, there's a lot of muscle memory in what I do in, in management training as well. Cause I always, always build in activities where I'll have people, we talked about the grill model and we talked about the SBI model. I'll have people practice that in a lab. And I even set the Las Vegas ground rule, you know, the Las Vegas ground rule.
00:46:44
Speaker
What happens in Las Vegas? Oh, on that one? Yeah, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. And so I'm like, hey, welcome to Las Vegas. For this class, we're in Las Vegas. We're going to try different things. We're going to try new things. You can ask any question. Nothing. There are no stupid questions. You can ask your questions. You can clarify things. It's not going to get repeated. None of us will repeat what we hear and hear.
00:47:10
Speaker
so that you walk out of here understanding how to provide feedback or how to do coaching or how to delegate because you'll have actually done it here in the lab first. You actually do it in my class before you go off and inflict it on a real employee. You and I have had very different experiences in Las Vegas, Eric.
00:47:32
Speaker
I'm not a gambler. It's just just not my not my thing. So I don't even really like Las Vegas. But but I thought that that commercial was pretty funny. Yeah, I was thinking of the old one that if you sit down at a table and you can't figure out who the manager is within 15 minutes, that means you're the manager.
Book Promotion and Online Presence
00:47:55
Speaker
Eric, we'd like to end our podcast by giving people a blatant and cheap plug.
00:48:01
Speaker
So you've got a podcast, you've got a book. Where can people find the book? Yeah. So Lead Like a Pro, The Essential Guide for New Managers is available on Amazon. It is a paperback, a Kindle book, and an audio book narrated by yours truly. So that may or may not be a plus. You can find me on LinkedIn.
00:48:24
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I'm all over LinkedIn. My website is GerardTrainingSolutions.com and the website is Management Development Unlocked and it's available any place you get your podcasts.