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Episode 198: Liliana's Journey with Eliana
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Hello, Podwalkers, and welcome back to another episode of the Goblin Lore Podcast! The goblins want to remind you that we have a very active and open Discord and love the opportunity for you all to join! On today's episode Taya and Hobbes sit down with Eliana to discuss the character of Liliana. This episode focuses on guilt, healing and living with trauma, and as well as living with who you used to be and becoming who you want to be.
Again we would like to state that Black Lives Matter
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Opening and closing music by Wintergatan (@wintergatan). Logo art by Steven Raffael (@SteveRaffle)
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guest
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello Podwalkers and welcome back to another episode of the Goblin Lore podcast. Hobbs Q is here tonight with Taya. Alex has the night off. We have Eliana of the Cathars with us, Defiant Necro, great name.
Liliana's Storyline and Eliana's Journey
00:00:45
Speaker
We are going to be talking to her about, well, Liliana just
00:00:49
Speaker
growth and change and kind of storylines of growing from who you used to be to who you are now. And both through the story of Liliana and through Eliana's own story, which I think mirrors some elements.
Sponsor Acknowledgment
00:01:02
Speaker
So before we get started, we just want to thank the Granging Coffee Company,
00:01:05
Speaker
They are a minority owned LGBT ran coffee company that supports gamers. That's kind of who they partner with. They have since their inception. They mainly sponsor kind of Twitch streamers, but they have always been willing to partner with us as kind of I think they're really only like podcast heavy group and we just appreciate the willingness to donate coffee to our
00:01:26
Speaker
our charity streams to our events to our anniversary and also you know on the flip side just giving a discount all the time for their coffee so if you want you can check them out we have that and our other discounts located in our link tree so before we get started we're going to do a question of the episode so
00:01:45
Speaker
As I said, my name is Hobbs
Hobbs Q's Online Presence
00:01:47
Speaker
Q. I can be found on Twitter. I refuse to change names at Hobbs Q at Blue Sky at Hobbs Q. Basically anywhere on the Internet, if there is a Hobbs Q, there is like there's a very high if it's not, it's an imposter. I've been using that name since 1998.
Favorite Magic Cards Discussion
00:02:04
Speaker
So the question that I have is what is the best card?
00:02:10
Speaker
that depicts Liliana. And I'm gonna actually hold off, even though I do for once have an answer. I have sprung this on Botea and Eliana. And in typical Hobbs faction, actually, sorry, in non-typical Hobbs faction, I actually thought about this one a lot. And I'm gonna go last because of that. Normally I go last because I need time to think. I guarantee you for once, I am just wanting my co-hosts and friends to get their opportunity.
00:02:39
Speaker
So Taya, how are you doing? Hi, I'm doing pretty good. My name is, my handle is Taya Transcendence on Twitter or on Blue Sky. My pronouns are she, her, or they, them. And yeah, so I'm going to look up the name of this card so I get it correct this time because I know last time I mentioned it, I got it wrong.
00:03:07
Speaker
Uh, so my favorite card, uh, my favorite card featuring, um, Liliana is Diabolical Tutor from Kaladesh Block. I called it Diabolical Intent last time I mentioned it on the podcast, which was like last week. Yep. Uh, so yeah, this is just, um, two of my favorite characters on the same card, uh, Lily just doing her best to, uh,
00:03:34
Speaker
Corrupt little Chandra. And Chandra's got this precious little smirk on her face. Just really great. And then the flavor text is show them how hot your fire can burn, which is just really egging Chandra on here. And I absolutely love this.
00:03:55
Speaker
I love the whole relationship between Chandra and Liliana during this block, especially and them being kind of gal pals during this whole time. But like actual gal pals, not like roommates. Not roommates, no. Yeah, they're just friends. I actually really like the egging on of her fire too, in the sense of like, you know, we've seen a lot more of Chandra.
00:04:23
Speaker
not being egged on and to kind of try to dampen that a little bit so we're gonna use it differently so it's kind of a different it's a it's the very interesting like almost like black take on Chandra's ability yeah so i mean it's a four mana demonic tutor it's not a very great card in any sense of the word but it's definitely my favorite card featuring Liliana it's funny because like for so long that was the tutor i grew up with right because that's by the time i got into the game
00:04:51
Speaker
eighth, ninth edition. That was that was it. There wasn't really good tutors. So I a my answer is going to be so vastly different. And I think that's interesting.
Eliana's Introduction and Name Origin
00:05:05
Speaker
But B, I have a fun story about that specific printing of that card, because at SCG con Baltimore,
00:05:13
Speaker
Chase, Mannequers and I were, had just finished playing a game or hanging out together at a table. Someone walked up and brought us that specific diabolic tutor and asked us both to sign it with- That's really cool. Yeah. I like that. So do you want to introduce yourself too, just in case people- Oh, absolutely. Do not know who this mystery voice is. This mystery person. Oh my goodness.
00:05:37
Speaker
Hello, I'm Eliana, aka Elle, formerly known on the internet widely as Defiant Necro. Some places still known as Defiant Necro, but Defiant Cathar is where you can find me more readily, more easily, most places on the internet.
00:05:55
Speaker
I didn't realize it wasn't just a display name. I thought it was the whole thing now. Yeah, we can touch base on that. Yeah, we can touch base on that too later in the episode about why that change occurred because there is a very specific reason.
Liliana's Character Development
00:06:12
Speaker
But the Defiance Necro part and the Defiant part of Defiant Cathar comes from the card Liliana Defiant Necromancer.
00:06:27
Speaker
So that is not my pick, but I did have to think very long and hard about, well, for about, what, five minutes, about whether it was going to be Defiant Necromancer or this other card, which was the first card that sprung to my mind whenever Hobbs asked the question. And that's Final Parting, which is an uncommon card from original Dominaria. It is...
00:06:58
Speaker
three black black, who think. And it is basically a dialogue tutor stapled to an end tomb. You get to search your library for two cards, put one in the graveyard and one into your hand. Oftentimes, when resolved in a black deck, it generally leads to the end of the game.
00:07:22
Speaker
Additionally, the art on the card depicts a very mournful Liliana after she ends the life of her brother who's now a lich. And the flavor text is basically her saying, you know,
00:07:40
Speaker
that she's giving him rest now and that's like all she can give him at this point, but that she is Letting him go. God. It's such it's such I am one of the people I think that
00:07:53
Speaker
I've been interested in this idea of Liliana picking up some white to her identity. And I think that it's super, super supportive of that. And like in origins in particular, when we see her is kind of that that initial cleric that I think it could have been another way it could have been done, even though I think now where she's at now, I would I would love to see it pulled in. But her brother is what is one of the things that always brings me back to that. So while you both chose very nice
00:08:23
Speaker
Nice answers. I am going to choose the card that most likely will piss off our guests. So we'll see if the show continues beyond this. I mean, I don't know. Can you guess?
00:08:36
Speaker
I have no idea what you're thinking. I think I know where you're going. Mine is also from Dominaria. It is a story spotlight card. So is mine. It's in blue. It is called in Bolas' clutches. Oh, yeah, of course. I was halfway expecting you to say Liliana's defeat.
00:08:59
Speaker
No, I mean, I mean, story wise, it sets up for what we get in War of the Spark. It is this interesting basic idea that like,
00:09:13
Speaker
It's that sad part of like, you know, she did everything to kind of like get the contract gone, kind of like managed to kill all the demons and realizing like this basically the flavor text is your contract is in default. You belong to me now server die, basically. I had to choose this one being the boldest apologist. I do like the card like as an ability.
00:09:32
Speaker
Uh, being a legendary enchantment. I like that, that idea that like boluses clutches is an aura. Um, and that you also turn whatever you snag into a legendary. I like it as a mechanical ability as well, but I just knew as soon as we had this episode and I kind of threw this question together that I unfortunately was going to go cheeky. Cause I mean, I, I, I mean, I think there are a lot of other cards that I prefer with Lily.
00:09:57
Speaker
But I wasn't turning down this opportunity. No, I should have seen that coming. I mean, yeah, I'm not surprised. You know, Hobbs, I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed. Let's face it, the tagline of the show. I always thought that Bullis looked sort of like a frog in this art, though.
00:10:22
Speaker
This is quite frequently super weird bullets art. I'm not going to lie. I mean, I do like the pose that we have here of Lillian and basically like looking back into the camera. Mm hmm. Yeah, I do like the way that it's structured. But Bolas does look like a frog. Maybe that's what he is. Maybe he's just chilling in the meditation room. Just being a frog, living his best frog life. Yeah. Like, I don't care.
00:10:52
Speaker
Sounds made up. Cool on the frog. I don't. Whatever.
00:10:58
Speaker
Frog time, baby. So we had talked about like a long time ago, we this this episode has been in the works prior to a name change, you know, like handle wise and actually what your you go by. And the reason was is because, you know, there's a lot of jokes about Liliana as a character.
00:11:24
Speaker
You know, I think the easy to go kind of like the Black Mage and just, you know, the selfishness. There's elements of her character that people like to just kind of glom onto. And I think that was what had started the initial conversation was kind of some of these. Tending to joke about just Liliana's character and you pointing out rightly, like she's actually a lot deeper, I think, than what people are necessarily ready to talk about.
Liliana's Struggle for Individuality
00:11:47
Speaker
And so I think that that is what we wanted to do was to talk about her journey.
00:11:53
Speaker
but also being the show that we are, kind of the mirror of your own, as well as just that overall topic of, like I said, you had mentioned living with who you used to be and becoming who you want to be, which is a very powerful idea.
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, obviously magic story has come a long way from where it used to be. In terms of like some of that older stuff was very, I don't know, like, you know, late 90s, early 2000s suffered from the like,
00:12:35
Speaker
I guess like a popular comic book syndrome where a lot of it was just like super edgy or like super light. Had to be dark and gritty. Exactly. So before we started getting like into Liliana's backstory like she was just presented as like this like spooky femme fatale like basically like sexed up like scary lady right like that's that's basically like what she was for a while until we actually started getting into her backstory and then it was like
00:13:03
Speaker
oh okay like this is a fully like formed human being who has like you know a past and thoughts and feelings and ideas and stuff and like I actually think that
00:13:17
Speaker
since that turn when they started devoting more time and effort to fleshing out these characters. I can't point to a specific time when that started, but you can definitely see it start to happen over the years. But I do think that over the years, she's been one of the, I guess,
00:13:44
Speaker
better handled in terms of development. Like, cause some characters sometimes feel like they kind of just stand still and are a little two dimensional, but I feel like there's just so much depth to Liliana. And like, even as like different writers handle her over different periods of time, like I feel like she doesn't ever really lose that core of who she is. Though it like shifts and moves as she grows. Yeah, I will say, you know,
00:14:11
Speaker
I think of this, there's, you know, there's even a lot of discussion about like, even where they did with like her ethnicity, which was kind of, yeah, wildly same thing, kind of all over the place. Initially, like art direction wise, we didn't really know much about her other than she was like, like you said, like, big breasted goth woman.
00:14:31
Speaker
who wore nice clothes. Like, I mean, I do think that that really sexualized things. I mean, this is the reason I think that there's been some great art of her that, you know, that there was a reason. I mean, this is if we think back way, even to the the the triumph spells from. Gosh, when was that? Was that Innistrad?
00:14:51
Speaker
the triumph of cruelty and triumph of uh oh right triumph of ferocity yeah yeah yeah that's the the infamous one with uh guruk and lilyana on it yeah yeah like standing over her in that way right you know like people have tried to you know justify the the positioning but like obviously it's very
00:15:11
Speaker
male gazing male gazing. Exactly. That's the that's the proper term for sure. Yeah, I mean, like in any key, a lot of her artwork was but it was also like this weirdly. She seemed to start out darker and then got white and then saying story wise, we didn't have much other than necromancer.
00:15:29
Speaker
she's spooky necromancer she she does scary she's scary lady she makes zombies she has uh you know uh revealing clothes and big boobs and that was like who she was for a while and then once we actually started getting some of her backstory and she started like we found out about her motivations and like what she was about i feel like that origins i mean would you say taya
00:15:51
Speaker
I definitely think Origins was. Origins, I think is what we started getting, you know, the Planeswalker books were when we first started getting some real characterization of her, you know, as more than just there was like nothing in the
00:16:07
Speaker
card story or the main like set stories really featuring her until then. But yeah, Origins was the first time she really gets set story that features her heavily and gives her a real background fleshed out. Yeah, and it kind of contextualized some of like her later behavior and like why she kind of is the way she is after a certain point, like in terms of just like
00:16:37
Speaker
establishing what her past was like and why she would behave the way she would behave later.
Liliana's Challenges with Aging
00:16:58
Speaker
I joked about this pretty frequently that it feels like every other set, we find a new over 100-year-old walker that's somehow still alive. She is an old walker. I think she's one of the younger ones. If my math is correct, she's just under 300, 260, 270 around.
00:17:23
Speaker
based on the shaky timeline, the ever shifting timeline that Wizards has provided us. But yeah, so she is indeed an old walker, but I think, like you said, that does point to like, I mean, it
00:17:46
Speaker
just the different ways that different people had to survive through that period of time, I guess, from having that fall from grace period where it's like, oh, you're basically a god to like, oh, you are nothing. Yeah. And old age started catching up with her real quick. I don't know what Teferi's secret was to aging gracefully, but Liliana did not.
00:18:10
Speaker
have that secret. Yeah, see, this is what I'm saying. Like, where it's like every other person is like, Oh, yeah, I'm like a couple centuries old. And we have no real explanation for why I really age, but it's fine. Don't worry about it. Yeah, I mean, to ferry they can hand wave off that he's a time age so he can slow his own aging. But, you know, it is
00:18:34
Speaker
It's amusing when anybody else is, you know, how are you still around? And then they have to like explain it away later at some point. Yeah. Because it's like, oh, because squeeze, squeeze, squeeze a lot. Yeah, but squeeze, squeeze not a planeswalker there. No, I know. He's just that he's just a little guy. He's just another, well, you know, now formal immortal, but, you know, immortals on Dominaria just tend to die.
00:19:01
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, we've got like Joda, Joyra. Just like chillin. Yeah, like. Yeah, I mean, because we've got other planeswalkers that have cheated death one way or another, because I mean, like Obnixless is also an old walker, but he is like much older. But he's, you know, he was cursed by the train veil. So he's like a demon or whatever. And then, yeah.
00:19:30
Speaker
I mean, you mentioned, Taya, the whole not quote unquote aging gracefully, but like that, you know, like that was part of what led to like the pack to start with, right? Right. Yeah. She she wanted to avoid dying, essentially. Yeah. I think so. I think one thing that is like really central to Liliana's story is the desire to remain her own person.
00:20:00
Speaker
throughout all of the things that she's been through. Because a lot of her problems started rebellious teenager, whatever. Her dad didn't like her being a teenage girl, basically. But the manipulation that ensued from the Raven Man later revealed to be
00:20:30
Speaker
And then that theme would kind of continue on where like her kind of core value of like individuality and like wanting to maintain that sense of self and constantly being like that being in jeopardy from manipulation by like other like powerful entities, generally like powerful male figures in her life and her like fighting against that.
00:20:59
Speaker
kind of informed a lot of the desperate, I would say, decisions she made at
Impact of Liliana's Past Decisions
00:21:06
Speaker
certain points in her story, like the bargain to get that immortality and et cetera. Though I will say it's very funny to me that on each of her four demons' actual cards, it says what she bargained with them for. And the only one who doesn't have
00:21:28
Speaker
anything attributed to him as part of the bargain is bells and lock because there's too much card text on the card. And in the story bells and lock is the one who's like, you know, changing history and like boasting about right, but he doesn't get attributed to him what he gave to worry about it.
00:21:51
Speaker
I think that's very funny. I mean, her her sparking story. I mean, as I said, early on, I really do think that there is such been such a case for the white, black of clerics that we saw. Yeah. Um, you know, the the fact that she grew up in Benalia, you know, she was part of this holy order. I mean, I really, her pathway to her spark is very if they haven't done the cycle, the specific cycle of monocolors, she absolutely could have been a white, black flake.
00:22:21
Speaker
cart and I certainly we could definitely see we could see an Orzhov Liliana anytime I would think and it would make perfect sense character wise. It would absolutely not surprise me and I really thought okay so during War of the Spark some of the promotional material featured Liliana and Gideon standing back-to-back this is before the set even came out some of the promotional material and it also like was on the pre-release kit
00:22:47
Speaker
I actually have one of them sitting over there on my desk that I saved from the pre-release that I went to. I saved this box. The art on it is Liliana standing back to back with Gideon. Gideon is holding the Black Blade, which is swirling with black energy.
00:23:05
Speaker
And Liliana has in her hands, like white energy. And I was like, oh my God, are we gonna get like Orzhov Gideon and Liliana? Because that would be so sick. And then we didn't. So obviously what happened, happened. But I mean, we did get direct court general from that set, which is probably my favorite Liliana. I wanted Orzhov Gideon so bad. I wanted to see him get corrupted by the Black Blade. I just wanted to see Chad get corrupted so much.
00:23:34
Speaker
Instead we got Ash Chad. Oh man, I have feelings about Gideon, but that's not what we're here for. Not today. Not today, another time. We can come back later. I had wanted the next set, the next time she showed up, whenever that was going to be, to be kind of right. Her understanding, others not knowing what she did. Right.
00:23:59
Speaker
you know, that she was she had made that decision that she was going to, you know, die. You know, like, I mean, there's a I have lots of thoughts still on how that went down. But if we go by the story, right, like she she made that decision. And like the other gatewatch people, quote unquote, whoever didn't know. I mean, that's why they were going to like hunt her down basically after that point. Yeah. My hope was the next time we saw her ended up being strict saving that she would be Orzam. I mean, that she would be white, black aligned.
00:24:29
Speaker
Yeah, so like there was even that period in the story which like you know the War of the Sparks story was what it was but there was there was that period in the story where after she like went back to Dominaria and like went through that whole fiasco on her family's old manor with like the the gin that was there or whatever in the imposter
00:24:52
Speaker
She temporarily changed her name, right? Before it became like Sarafina Onyx on Strixhaven, she was going by a different name, which was Anna Iora. Anna was the woman who was her mentor when she was a cleric, and Iora was Gideon's original last name, Kythion Iora. And whenever, I think it was Kya asked her, you know, oh, where'd you come up with that name?
00:25:22
Speaker
Liliana was just like, I don't know, it just came to me. I was just like, please, please, can we get the words off Liliana? Can we please? I was like, oh my gosh. Cause I mean, I mean, it's no secret. Anybody who follows me on Twitter knows I ship them very, very hard, but.
00:25:40
Speaker
That's neither here nor there. Well, and you know, your own like preface or your own color identity, right? Yeah, absolutely. You've asked some great questions about how people see you if they see you aligned with one color more than others, like if they have to split the Orzhov.
00:26:02
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, if you if you asked, like, I think if you asked my like, following that question, like maybe like two years ago, they would have said like, Oh, like, black, black, black, black, black, black, black, black, black, black. But like, if you asked now, like, maybe more people would probably say white, I think, but yeah, I definitely, me personally dabble in both extensively and what I both what I kind of
00:26:29
Speaker
embody and what I play in the game. So yeah, so we're we've kind of taken Liliana through at least, you know, a good portion of her journey. Like you said, I like this is the whole stuff that keeps standing out to me, right? Like you said, on her own terms, even when she goes and studies on Innistrad, she's not willing to be a necromancer who
00:26:54
Speaker
like is dead, right? Like, she's not willing to join them. Right. She was not willing to do that, even though that's quote unquote, the way to master the art. She's also going the direction of her brother. Yeah, absolutely. But like, she is making her decision there. The situation with Bolas, with World of the Spark, she is making an active decision.
00:27:19
Speaker
Yeah, I, like I said, like I think, and, you know, shout out Seanan McGuire for that amazing side story in Dominar United.
00:27:32
Speaker
featuring Liliana, that where she had an opportunity to like repeat an old mistake and then again chose to remain herself, not take the easy way
Liliana's Journey to Self-awareness
00:27:46
Speaker
out. And like, I think it showed a lot of her development. But like, so through because it's in a different way than it would have been previously, because like throughout her journey, it's been this this kind of path of like,
00:28:01
Speaker
you know, trying to keep that core identity, trying to be herself, but also like, she's willing to make compromises to like, enable that, right? Like, so she will, because she thinks, you know, I'll figure it out later, I'll make this compromise, I'll outsmart them, like the thing with the demon contracts, like she's like, okay.
00:28:20
Speaker
I'm trying to loophole. I will get out. I will make this work. Like not thinking about the consequences that that'll have for people around her. She could have taken the ring and tried to get out of it later, but she did it. She chose not to. She took the hard way out of it. She buried the ring and fought with her own power and was her own person. And like there was this whole great inner monologue of just her like, you know, she's like, I'm not doing that again. This is me. I've learned. I'm going to like
00:28:50
Speaker
at the end of Strixhaven. Also, whenever she basically was just decided, I'm not going to run away from this, I'm going to just learn from what happened and move forward. So I feel like the central journey has remained the same, but it's been tempered by her experiences. And I think that's what I was trying to touch on earlier, was I think it's really cool to see how that
00:29:16
Speaker
that her character has stayed the same but grown. And I think they've done a really good job of like, one of the characters I think they've done the best job of actually consistently doing that with.
00:29:28
Speaker
I think they have. I think she has out of the mainline characters has some of the most, you know, character work of any of them coming, especially from where she started to where she is today. And it's it's all like a believable organic trajectory, if you like are willing to look at it is what I like most about it, because
00:29:55
Speaker
And I talked to Hobbs about this a little bit before, but I've suffered from whatever mental illnesses I suffered before. But being diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, for example, at one point. And having that knowledge that she's done terrible things. She might have a...
00:30:22
Speaker
an excuse for why she's done what she's done. There might be an explanation for why she's done what she's done. But I think part of her journey is realizing that yes, there's an explanation, but that's not a justification necessarily. So I can, like, say, like,
00:30:39
Speaker
Yeah, I, you know, I did this and it hurt, like whenever she lied to the rest of the gate watch to get them to help her like kill Razakath or whatever. Like she makes these decisions and she's like, it's for a good reason, but I'm going to manipulate these people into doing what I want them to do. And then like her progression from realizing like that the ends don't necessarily justify the means.
00:31:06
Speaker
Yeah, especially when she sees, you know, I think in the end that somebody has to pay the cost and she experiences it with Josu and then she experiences it again with Gideon and I think that's
00:31:26
Speaker
There's a line. Something that makes her stop wanting to take the shortcut, because even if she's the one who avoids paying the cost, somebody has to pay it. Yeah, somebody eventually has to pay it. And I think that she experienced that happening one too many times. And the thing with Josu was what led to, because that happened right before the stuff with that. That happened shortly before.
00:31:56
Speaker
She was in both his clutches, right? So she had that. That was fresh in her mind. And then...
00:32:03
Speaker
she made that decision, like we said earlier, she made that decision herself to, you know, she was like, okay, I know what this is gonna do to me, but I can't stand that my actions have enabled this to occur and that I am currently enabling it to continue. So regardless of what happens to me, I'm gonna try and stop it. And then, you know, she was willing to take responsibility for what she'd done
00:32:29
Speaker
Gideon stepped in and you know that's a whole other conversation but she got to experience like she was like okay well like this everything has had a consequence and that experience I think was very sobering for her and then uh because I mean a big part of Strixhaven was her trying to like
00:32:51
Speaker
undo that, right? And then realize that she couldn't. And then realizing like, okay, well, I'm just gonna try and be better, instead of like trying to undo what I've already done. I mean, I like her story in March on the Machines.
Liliana's Role in March of the Machines
00:33:04
Speaker
Yeah, right. Like she returns to Strixhaven, basically, she decides to not go through the front. She basically had faith that Jace was going to
00:33:15
Speaker
handle it, right? Like, you know, she didn't even see a world where that wasn't. And then when she realized that's not the case, she went to the school to protect her students. And even within the fight there, like she's she raises like a zombie army, but she basically is just like, staying around as a healer. Once again, she is it is the to me, it's like where we've seen her so far. Like, we've now had this like loop around like she is a cleric. I mean, she's healing the students. And that's what her job is. At the end of like March of the Machine.
00:33:43
Speaker
That scene at the end of March where she's there and has been holding off the Frexian invasion force. Most of the other professors have been completed or killed at this point. She's sitting there holding them off while the students are doing their thing.
00:34:02
Speaker
and trying to get the founder's spell to go off or whatever. That scene at the end where she's just like, we're not done yet, we still gotta keep fighting. You said she's going on healing people, but then once that, the invasion force trying to break through the barrier, and they're like, oh yeah, we don't know how long it's gonna hold. And she's just like, oh, yep, big zombie army, we're not done yet.
00:34:27
Speaker
we're going to continue standing here and standing against this. We're not going to take the easy way out. She's willing to put herself on the line now instead of doing what she may have done previously and trying to find some loophole to get out of it. She's sitting there
00:34:45
Speaker
trying to protect. She's like she's learned from her experiences and I think that development is like from Strixhaven to like current is like super, super visible and relevant and really cool to see. Yeah, I really can't wait to we get to see her next because we didn't get to see a card or anything for her in that set.
00:35:09
Speaker
And I want to see a new card for her. Yeah, next time we go to Strixhaven, I'm real excited for that. Yeah, and does she have her spark? I mean, we don't know, right? I don't think we've got an answer. I honestly think if she, because I think at some point, obviously, Wizards has to focus on other characters. Some of the older ones have got to stop being a central focus. And they've kind of started to set that up to establish new main characters.
00:35:37
Speaker
But I think Liliana losing her spark and just being a teacher at Strixhaven. I think that would be the best thing for her. Honestly, I think it would.
00:35:51
Speaker
I did- See, that's the thing. That's something that I don't even need a set. I just need the story. Yeah, exactly. I need the story. Yeah. There's one line that I keep going back to in the Dominar United side story whenever it touches on her at Strixhaven and they're like, oh yeah, she's been super distracted lately out of it.
00:36:15
Speaker
not doing her best. She takes a sabbatical, right? And then that's when she goes to Dominoia to deal with everything and finds out about the Phrexians and whatnot. But there's this one line in that it's clear that she is not doing great mentally at that point, because there's several instances where it's just talking about how much guilt she's carrying from what happened with Gideon still, even after resolving
00:36:43
Speaker
uh in her own mind to like you know just try to live as uh as as he did or would want her to uh because he always he saw the good in her or whatever and you know uh gave his life for hers and and she's like but she's still just like so torn up over it and has so much guilt and it's just like trying to continue one in spite of that and I feel like the whole thing with her protecting her students was uh
00:37:08
Speaker
Um, kind of like the next like natural progression with that, but like that, that one line in there, that's like, oh, um, his, his name, uh, rang, uh, like a, uh, rang like a bell where her heart used to be or something like that. And I'm like.
00:37:29
Speaker
So you brought up saying that it's a topic that I've wanted to discuss on here before. I mean, I think this was one of the things that prompted the discussion. You talked about this concept of a diagnosis, or we can get into labels versus not, because I think there's places they have utility, there are places that they don't.
00:37:48
Speaker
And one of the places they may have utility is to help people understand themselves and to understand maybe why they have developed patterns that they have developed. I mean, you mentioned specifically like borderline personality disorder. And when they talk about that category of personality characteristics or disorders, if you want to go with that language.
00:38:07
Speaker
It really is understanding like how your relationships with other people were greatly impacted by your past and how you have this this like recurrent pattern. And as you said, it doesn't make it an excuse. It doesn't make it a like something to weaponize or something to use and be like, oh, well, see, yeah, it was all just this one thing. It may help understand why.
00:38:30
Speaker
it doesn't mean that you get to just be an asshole, right? I mean, like this came up with with times when people were like, I'm not going to invoke the name of the owner of Twitter, but like there was stuff with him and autistic and there it's like, oh, we'll see. It's like, well, no, being autistic doesn't just mean that you're an asshole, right? Like it's just it's not what it means.
Influence of Liliana's Trauma
00:38:52
Speaker
And I think that that's where we get into the things where people use the labels in a way that either for themselves or others is just
00:38:59
Speaker
excuse versus understanding. Yeah, um, yeah, like, like I said, an explanation, not a justification, because like, I feel like if you examine like, you know, what has happened in Lilliana's past, it's it's evident how she became like a closed off callous, like kind of, um,
00:39:19
Speaker
hard person, manipulative, very manipulative, very like, like, didn't show much regard for other people, because, you know, she was just concerned with herself and trying to protect herself. And like, then you find out, you know, she's got all these external influences, like limb doll, bolus, the demons, the experiences with her father and her brother earlier in life, like,
00:39:42
Speaker
She has had all this trauma in her past, and she has people literally constantly whispering in her ear, trying to influence her to do the wrong thing. And yes, this is an explanation for her behavior and why she became the way she did. But as she finds out later, it's not a justification. And the journey of her actively trying to do better and be a better person is very evident, I think.
00:40:11
Speaker
as the story continues. There was a comic, I know that the comics aren't canon, the Boom Studios comics, but the Hidden Planeswalker comic, it was like a four issue miniseries that focused on Liliana. And it was it was pretty phenomenal, in my opinion. Yeah, a lot of the boom stuff has been. I would like to get some of that into canon. But yeah,
00:40:32
Speaker
Absolutely, this story in particular, I don't think it really does anything that's super crazy outside of canon, but there are several scenes, especially in the beginning of the book, and towards the end when she's talking, I'm not gonna spoil the whole series for people that might wanna read it, but
00:40:49
Speaker
There's basically a bunch of scenes new, the beginning where she's teaching in class and she basically has to like, someone, she's teaching, because she's a professor of necromancy at Strixhaven now, right? And so someone's like, oh yeah, like, I'm gonna like just use all this necromantic power and stuff I learned like to like just,
00:41:05
Speaker
I'm gonna be so powerful and so cool and like I'm just gonna do all this crazy stuff and Liliana's like trying to teach these kids like no like you have to temper this like you can't just do whatever the hell you want because then it's gonna consume you you have to like have some degree of like consciousness and humanity and responsibility when you're and like showing that level of like growth to where she can acknowledge that she's like I've seen what happens when you don't and
00:41:33
Speaker
She's literally just like I hurt her mo now is I'm going to prevent the next generation. I'm going to teach the next generation so I can prevent them from making the same mistakes I did. Yeah, it's I mean, she'd be a great teacher. I would love to have her as a teacher if I was learning necromancy, because not only is she an amazing necromancer, she's made so many bad decisions to learn from. Yeah, exactly.
00:42:02
Speaker
And yeah, so I actually have a D&D character that I play in one of my campaigns who's largely influenced by that kind of story. She's also a professor of magic at an academy and has that kind of like, the backstories are completely different, but there's definite theme overlaps. So like that, her story is just like so near and dear to me.
00:42:30
Speaker
Um, I mean, like, you know, Hobbs said that, uh, like I've touched on the whole, you know, BPD thing and, uh, that, that aspect of it in general and, and the, uh, Yeah, the trauma response, the parallels that I drew earlier, like that's, that's definitely a large part of why I find her so like relatable and inspiring to a degree.
00:42:55
Speaker
I will once again, you know, use this opportunity to say that planeswalkers really need therapy. Oh boy. Liliana could definitely benefit from some. She's got almost 300 years of trauma to unload and some real, real unhealthy relationship patterns. Yeah. Oh, there's some real unhealthy relationships. Yeah.
00:43:24
Speaker
That's a whole can of worms. Yeah, wizards get us if you ever decide you need to do a therapy plane, just like the plane of therapists. I mean, the meditation plane would be great for that if it wasn't, you know, currently occupied by frog. It wasn't being a prison by an asshole brother, it would be. There wasn't a big frog in there, you know? Oh, that'd be really relaxing for me during therapy, though.
00:43:52
Speaker
So I had a, I had a therapist with a lab. Uh, that was a great therapy dog. That was quite nice. That's right. Just a big therapy dog. Big lab. Like that's what I think. I mean, so his, his punishment was that like in the meditation room, like you lost all his powers and his titles, right? So he's just a big therapy dog. That's all. He's like a, he's like a mopi mopi lab. Yeah.
00:44:23
Speaker
Yeah, the Mophie lab that can't remember his own name and. Dang, that sucks.
00:44:32
Speaker
So, you know, I knew that this was gonna be an episode that we would struggle to get anywhere near where I wanted to or I think you or any of us would want to get with you. I apologize. No, no, I mean, I think that there's a reason. You know, I thought about a lot about the shift that you've made even in the last year or two with your own identity. And, you know, like this, when this was done, this was like a Liliana thing. And now, you know, we are really talking about
00:45:00
Speaker
even the changing growth within you and this other aspect that you've used to change part of your identity again, which feels like a whole other episode because it feels like there's a whole other character that we need to explore. Yeah.
00:45:20
Speaker
Does that seem like an accurate statement? I think so. So the cool thing about real people as opposed to these characters that we all love and relate to in our own ways is that we're multifaceted, right? We contain multitudes more so than these characters do. And the values that we ascribe to them, sure.
00:45:46
Speaker
I think there was a multitude of reasons for the slight name change, right? There was a lot of reasons.
00:46:00
Speaker
For those that may not know listening to this episode, we alluded to it earlier, but I used to actually go by Liliana for a while before I started making magic content, before I started streaming, before I started doing the charity streams, before I started doing any kind of public sphere content creation stuff. I went by Liliana for a long time because of these reasons that I already touched on
00:46:25
Speaker
you know, that I relate to her. I really like her as a character. I'm also a sexy big-breasted goth necromancer. So, you know, it just seemed like a good fit.
00:46:45
Speaker
going by the name of a match the gathering character while creating match the gathering content ended up causing kind of more problems than you'd think in a certain degree. So that was the surface reason for the name change. But also just kind of trying to seize my own identity to an extent from independent of the character.
Eliana's Personal Identity and Name Change
00:47:15
Speaker
was another part of it for sure. And I still definitely love and relate to the character, but I am not the character. I am myself. So that was another big part of it.
00:47:31
Speaker
And you know, you mentioned even to just pull away from just the full idea of the necromancy, right? Like you said, big-breasted guff woman. You had these ties to that. I mean, even that just as a change to Cathars and to what that represents. It's significant. Yeah, for sure.
00:47:55
Speaker
Yeah, I wanted to, whenever I first changed my name, not even speaking on the handle change, which that's even more recent, but the name change in general, I posted about this the other day, actually, and I seated about this the other day. God, I hope that's not what they're actually calling it.
00:48:17
Speaker
I mean, we're calling it skating, right? Over a blue sky. So, who knows? Who knows what it's like. You know, I need to start posting on there, Marv. And I do have blue sky and threads. I just have not used them at all. But I should start posting on there more frequently since it seems like we're zeaten our way down the toilet over there. But I did post a...
00:48:38
Speaker
a little thread about this the other day. I posted one of those memes that was like, oh, the trans name choice alignment chart, the lawful evil, lawful neutral, whatever alignment chart. It was a really nice alignment chart, yeah. Yeah. I don't even think I touched on this or mentioned this.
00:48:58
Speaker
I am a trans woman, so that's a part of this as well. But yeah, I posted that on there, and I was like, oh yeah, my current name I'm going by now, which is definitely solid, I think, gonna probably last me a good amount of time, hopefully the rest of the time. Eliana, because I wanted to keep the
00:49:25
Speaker
like Lilliana have like reference in there. Like I wanted to, cause that's very important to me. She was very formative character for the end. Like was, is, is very important to me. So I wanted to keep that in there, but you know, the, we tacked the L on there too, because, um, it will for a number of reasons, but also like, you know, um, we, we just get another little bit of, uh, another magic character reference in there. Sure. Uh, Elspeth, Tyrell, uh,
00:49:54
Speaker
is another character that's very important to me. And then the handle change from Defiant Necro to Defiant Cathar, that is double-faceted as well. So my initial merch that I released when I was first doing t-shirts and stuff had the Defiant Necro band logo thing on it, and I got some feedback that,
00:50:21
Speaker
a lot of people tried to wear it in public and got some weird reactions from the word necro. So that was part of it. But another part of it was just like leaning into that whole like, like we touched on earlier, like, you know, I do kind of it both in terms of like the way I present myself in in the online spaces and in real life, honestly, and
00:50:48
Speaker
and also in my play style and my brand that I present in magic, you know, both black mana and white mana.
Connection to Innistrad and Cathars
00:50:56
Speaker
So I kept the Defiant part of it and then just we tacked on Cathar for
00:51:02
Speaker
the um you know the Cathars from Innistrad, Innistrad in general has always been like my favorite plane a good portion of Liliana's formative story was on Innistrad as well and uh Innistrad you know aside from just being the stereotypical gothic horror plane it's kind of just about the struggle for humanity to survive right and like
00:51:26
Speaker
One of my favorite things about the Cathars and Thalia in particular is that amidst this world of all these supremely powerful beings, demons, angels, planeswalkers,
00:51:45
Speaker
necromancers, wizards, etc. Um, they're just humans who are trying to survive. And I think that's really, really cool. It's always a while to because like, you know, like, always, it's kind of seems like it'd be crappy to survive as a human. I think that's the point, right? Like, they're doing everything they can and life still sucks for them. But they're still going. They're still doing it. So yeah, so that that's, that's a
00:52:14
Speaker
And you know, I've a lot of my posts I'll sign off with like, you know, keep fighting or like I had in my before I ran out of room in my bio. One of my taglines that I had in there was, you know, former wrestler, still a fighter.
00:52:32
Speaker
Um, as I used to, uh, I used to be a professional wrestler. I talked about that at length on Shippam's podcast, you know, so, uh, show, uh, what have you. I'm not sure what the correct term is, but casual magic, that one, you know, you know, the one that it's a, it's a good one. Shout out.
00:52:51
Speaker
We build up our friends around here. But yeah, on casual magic, I talked about that at length. So y'all can go listen to that episode if you want to hear me talk about that. That's not what we're here for. Yeah, we'll link it. So the other main message I'm getting out of this is we basically, like within the next couple of weeks, need to reschedule you again to come back to touch on Elspeth. Yeah. We haven't touched on Elspeth on the show either. Oh, I have so much to say.
00:53:20
Speaker
If Alspeth got brought back from the dead, we can get Gideon brought back from the dead in order to have a Gideon Liliana. I'm just saying, I don't know how underworlds work, but it's, yeah, I want it. Yeah, absolutely. I would really love for that to happen. Anyone familiar with my online presence knows I feel strongly about this. They both have gone through a lot. They both deserve to be happy.
00:53:50
Speaker
Yeah, I do deserve. Right, like if you don't want to do a ton of stories about them, here's the idea. You do one more and then you let them go. Yeah, and let them have some time.
00:54:00
Speaker
That's another thing from Boom. There is a there is an issue of the Boom Studios thing where Gideon's ghost was back for a minute or for like one issue. And and like they they legitimized the canonized in non-canon Liliana and Gideon relationship because they they shared a smooch. Yeah. And I was like, make this.
00:54:31
Speaker
Yeah, we want to say just thank you for Eliana or do you prefer El or Eliana of the two then? Um, most people like just because it's just easier, I think just go with it all. But I either one is fine. I mean, I'm Thomas in real life who doesn't go by Tom. So I actually have a tendency to lengthen everybody's names. So I'm fine with either one. But most people call me out and I think it's a cool nickname. So I'm fine with that.
00:55:00
Speaker
So we want to thank you. We hopefully is assuming you enjoyed this. We'll be having you back hopefully very shortly.
00:55:08
Speaker
But before we go, I wanted to just let the listeners know that, you know, in Vegas, in MagicCon Vegas, it was announced this week that there will be another mental health panel.
Mental Health Panel Announcement
00:55:19
Speaker
You know, unfortunately, Taya nor Alex will be able to be going to Vegas. I'm so sad. I know. I know. And I understand the travels like this was like the one other event that could make work this year. And so I'm so thankful that we're doing this. It's going to be totally weird not doing it with like without you and Alex is going to
00:55:37
Speaker
Yeah, I have another event with one of my partners that weekend and I didn't realize it was Vegas weekend, but that has been booked since like March, so I couldn't change it.
00:55:52
Speaker
On the happy side of this is that we will have a creating magic content while dealing with mental health struggles, which I think listeners of the show know is something that's talked about quite frequently, something that we're all pretty open about when we've had that. So it's going to be myself. It's going to be Shivam. It's going to be Chase. And it's going to be Tron is Bad, Ryan Nicholas, who's coming on the show soon, hopefully. We've got to get him rescheduled.
00:56:22
Speaker
I'm just fans of all three of those people. Great, great people. I am too. And I'm so thankful that they all agreed when I reached out. And that Wizards is giving us the opportunity again. So I just want to let people know it has been announced. We will be. We are Sunday again. We are Sunday morning at 11 a.m. We are up against an art panel, which is the only thing that's a little bit of a bummer. But we are not up against Gavin's unknown event and we are not against the like
00:56:49
Speaker
world championship finals or whatever. Um, so I was in the audience for that last one. Y'all did. I will be in the audience for this one too. I'm excited. So I hope you enjoyed the last one. I really did. I, I was actually sitting. It's funny because I was sitting next to Ryan Nicholas in the audience. We were, we had, we had come in together. So, uh, yeah. And, and you did approach after and I did too. Yes.
00:57:17
Speaker
You shouted me out on stage at one point. You were like, we need to do a lily on FSM. I did. This has been in the works for a while. We've been talking about this one for a good while. I'm really excited to see you guys do it again. One of the first, shortly after our first Praetors event, I think, it was either after our first or second one, I did a podcast with the uncommon commander. Shout out Cole, uncommon commander. Look it up.
00:57:46
Speaker
I did a podcast with him where we talked about burnout in content creation. I feel like that's adjacent to
00:57:59
Speaker
to it's very related. So yeah, so that's kind of what's coming down. And like I said, we just once again, I'm hoping that this is going to be the start of a frequent returning guest that we have some of those and I have really enjoyed recording with you. So thank you, Elle.
00:58:18
Speaker
I really loved it as well. As soon as we can figure out another time, I would love to come back on and talk more. I hope I did not bore you all to death.
00:58:42
Speaker
Feel free to send us any questions, comments, thoughts, hopes, and dreams to the Goblin Lore Pod on Twitter, or email us at goblinlorepodcast at gmail.com.
00:58:52
Speaker
If you would like to support your friendly neighborhood gobsugs, our link tree can be found on our Twitter account and in the description of today's show. This has everything from various discount codes to the link for our Patreon. The music for today's show was by Wintergotten, who can be found at vintergotten at bandcamp.com. The art was done by Steven Raphael, who can be found at stevereffel on Twitter. Goblin Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast as part of their growing forthos content.
00:59:20
Speaker
Check them out on Twitter at hipsters MTG or online at hipstersofthecoast.com. Thank you for listening and remember goblins like snowflakes are only dangerous in numbers.