Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome back to Debatable Discussions podcast.
Speaker: Today we are joined by Kennan for an exciting episode about free will and determinism.
Speaker: Hello Kennan, it's great to have you with us and just first of all I'd like to make a quick introduction.
Speaker: Kennan was the president of the philosophy society at our school before and now he is on a gap year before he begins his university journey.
Speaker: Unfortunately so.
Speaker: Welcome everyone.
Speaker: Thank you for having me on here.
Speaker: I'm quite excited to get back into the debatable discussion as we did back in philosophy.
Speaker: So I'll let you guys leave the conversation and I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: So we'll start, first of all, what is free will?
Speaker: So free will and determinism will be up before today.
Speaker: And there's a quick definition, free will is concept, the Christian concept, one might say that we have a choice of what to do in our lives and we can actually change it.
Speaker: So if we don't really have a destiny, we can make our own.
Speaker: So use a cliche.
Speaker: I like to start by saying, what did you guys think?
Speaker: Do you think we have free will?
Speaker: I'm still something I still kind of contemplate because there's lots of aspects of life in which, you know, I think we walk around with the understanding that we have free will because a sense of responsibility for your actions.
Speaker: And, you know, we talk about, you know, being, you know, doing things and having the willpower to do things in itself, that in itself, that word.
Speaker: you know, is synonymous with the idea of free will.
Speaker: But I have, you know, there's lots of things like intuition.
Speaker: I find that a really difficult thing to then kind of grasp because sometimes intuition is completely correct.
Speaker: And that kind of more than the probability and the mathematical probability of luck.
Speaker: So I don't know, I'm still on the fence about it.
Speaker: John, what are you...
Speaker: I think first you have free will you sort of got to set the boundaries for how you're going to define it because you first you got to do within the realms of science so remember Ken you once made a point a while back that obviously we don't free will because we can't fly yes yeah yeah that's one of my favorite points still one of my favorite points
Speaker: because obviously, you know, surely that would be part of free will.
Speaker: However, I do think within the realms of nature, we have to an extent free will.
Speaker: However, there are so many external factors like obviously the law, which really doesn't infringe on our free will, but really influences us to say, well, I won't do that action.
Speaker: So whilst we have the will to think about doing anything,
Speaker: really impracticality, all these external influences, I believe, limits it.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree with you, John, that I think there is an element of free will that we have.
Speaker: I think we have free will in thought completely.
Speaker: But there are very many parents.
Speaker: The law is one of them.
Speaker: For example, I can...
Speaker: I always like to give this example where you can do whatever you want.
Speaker: You can go and steal some chocolate from the shop, but if you get caught, then you're going to have to face the consequences.
Speaker: And then you're probably going to think that's not worth it because it's only three pounds.
Speaker: But you can do that.
Speaker: And there's a question though, whether free will in thought relates to free will, or do we just...
Speaker: Do we actually have free will with all these deterrents around us?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think it's interesting actually the point, going back to your point, John, just before I move on to Diane, that talking about parameters.
Speaker: Now, I think that for me, that's one of the most troubling things about free will is because are you truly free if you are restricted by... Now, obviously, actual law is something which is an element of free will because man has created law.
Speaker: But in terms of natural law,
Speaker: That for me is troubling with free will because in, and that goes back to my previous point, which I made that, you know, I can't turn into a pigeon and fly, even if I really willed that to happen.
Speaker: So for me, that's where it troubles because if you look at the definition of free will as stated in the beginning, it's an ability to, if you really will to something, will to do something, you wish to do it, you should be able to do it.
Speaker: So I think that's interesting.
Speaker: But I think then, Diane, going on to your point, it's, again, it's such a difficult topic to kind of grasp your head around because you kind of got to work out, well, how free are you?
Speaker: Because where I stand on your guys' point of it is your level of free will, I would argue, is probably more a level of determinism.
Speaker: It's determinism with variation rather than
Speaker: the absolute freedom because for me there's no kind of spectrum of freedom you're either free or you're unfree now there can be the illusion in which you know for instance prisoners in a prison have a sense of freedom in the sense that they can walk around the prison but they can't leave the like that do you understand the avenue so I think that's my take on that maybe controversial I don't know but yeah
Speaker: And moving on, actually, as well.
Speaker: Diane, you're a Christian, but in the Bible, I'm right in saying that they believe that we have free will.
Speaker: Yeah, so it's from... This is taken from Adam and Eve.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: From Adam and Eve in the Genesis when they eat the apple.
Speaker: So this is basically sort of the idea of them rebelling against God
Speaker: means that they have this choice, they have the choice whether they want to eat the apple or not, and then gets transposed into us on earth having choice to do some actions or to not do some actions at the same time.
Speaker: But to what extent would you say that?
Speaker: Because many scholars will say it's slightly contradictory to the god of classical theism.
Speaker: Because if God did design us to have free will, then why did he do that in, let's say, an all loving world like he is?
Speaker: I mean, Canon or Deion, do you see any issues?
Speaker: I see your point there, John, because I think the biggest issue that we have with, when I say we, from an atheist or an agnostic perspective, is with free will in religion, and especially for Christians, the God of classical theism, is that
Speaker: The idea of omnipotence, if there's a sense that humans have omnipotence means all powerfulness.
Speaker: There's a sense that if you have the choice to do something in which God has no control over in the sense of being able to sin for many atheists and agnostics or non-believers in the God of classical atheism, it's a difficult thing to grasp.
Speaker: So Dan, how do you kind of
Speaker: handle that point i i use an analogy i see i see god as more of a mind reader so i i give this analogy every time it's like if let's say i ask you john think of a number between 1 and 50. i can't make a choice for you to think of 47 but the moment 47 comes to your mind i can see it
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That's how I view it.
Speaker: I view it as more of a knowing.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I can't change what you do.
Speaker: Maybe I can influence what you do.
Speaker: So, for example, if I have, I don't know, 47 in the background or I, you know, I plan something, for example.
Speaker: So, like, for example,
Speaker: if I don't want you going, I don't know, let's say I don't want you to go out of the house today because you'd be in a car crash, whatever.
Speaker: I'd make it torrential rain.
Speaker: But I mean, you can still go.
Speaker: You'd be heavily deterred.
Speaker: But I see God as sort of planting things, if you know what I mean.
Speaker: Mind reader, I don't see it as a compulsion.
Speaker: That's how I deal with it, in a way.
Speaker: And do you think that, you know, as a Christian, do you feel more as a sense that, because I'm right, so you believe in free will.
Speaker: Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker: So do you feel then that having that kind of the idea of God in your head, in your, you know,
Speaker: in your day-to-day life do you feel that that is imposing on your free will because you're you feel constrained to you know maybe follow certain practices in christianity you may not 100 agree with i i don't really think so i think it's more like like the law if i mean if we can you know i think for me it's again it's more like like the actual law you can break if you want
Speaker: um you know we we break laws all the time really yeah frankly um worth knowingly or unknowingly in some countries you know you're not allowed to cross the street unless it's a it's a uh i don't know how to call it a crossing yeah yeah um so yeah all the time so um
Speaker: Yeah, that's how I view it as well.
Speaker: I view it as in, you know, I think about it, but at the same time, I also don't really, if I don't agree with something quite heavily, I don't subscribe to it, full stop.
Speaker: And do you think, you're supposed to be questioning me, but with free will, I think one of the biggest questions in which I find it is obviously whether you believe in determinism or free will, that obviously has an effect on how you lead your day-to-day life.
Speaker: Do you guys feel that if everyone subscribed to determinism and we just thought everything was, our life's already planned, past, future and present is already somewhere in the cosmic universe ready for us to just enter into.
Speaker: Do you think that would change people's behavior on a day-to-day life?
Speaker: Yeah, I think determinism would definitely because you see it when people are sort of things like, say things like, we're all going to die anyway.
Speaker: You only live once.
Speaker: So I think with determinism and especially the idea that you're going to have to do certain things inevitably, it makes you a lot less
Speaker: it definitely changes the way you are.
Speaker: Whereas if someone believes they have free will, you could definitely see how they'd be more of a, perhaps a more spontaneous individual.
Speaker: Just, because I think, it can almost be more of a part of philosophy, people have free will.
Speaker: in the sense that they don't mean it in too much of an academic sense perhaps, but they're like, I have free will, I'm just going to do whatever I feel like.
Speaker: So I think in perhaps modern culture, having that idea of your own personal philosophy of free will, it's quite liberating.
Speaker: What do you think of that?
Speaker: I agree and I think also if we all believed in the terms I feel people would stop trying so hard in some fields.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't think we'd have this much advancement because everyone's like well I mean if MedHap is going to happen I'm not going to not going to get out of bed today.
Speaker: Whilst with free will you've got this sort of you know I can do I can make a real change and a positive impact.
Speaker: What do you think Adam?
Speaker: I think, yeah, I definitely agree with that because I think the reality is if everyone subscribed to determinism, people would become unmotivated.
Speaker: Because I think the beauty of free will, which is often overlooked because it's so ingrained into us as humans, whether it be an illusion or whether it be reality, it's up to you guys to decide.
Speaker: But I think that and it's the idea of having an ability to, you know,
Speaker: become successful or you know get that job that you really want to do having that ability that freedom of choice and will to do that is highly motivating but if someone sat you down you know the day you could understand you know english and said your life is already set out and everything that everything that's going to happen to you is already in motion you're just waiting to enter that period of time
Speaker: I think that would be, as Dayan said, catastrophic for society.
Speaker: I think we'd probably still be living in, well, in a cave, frankly.
Speaker: I don't even think we would be in a mud hut.
Speaker: It'd be in a state of limbo.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, and I think it's interesting if you just for a second look at free will from an animalistic perspective, because, you know, I think animals think they have free will.
Speaker: I mean, my cats, for example, do whatever they want when they want.
Speaker: I mean, you know, they're constrained by, you know, the doors of my house and when they get let outside.
Speaker: But, you know, apart from that.
Speaker: An animal doesn't, to our understanding or my understanding at least, doesn't think its life's determined for it.
Speaker: It just does what it wants.
Speaker: So I think it's interesting because when you look at these quite heavy philosophical topics and very open-ended questions about does free will exist, you have to draw in information from other avenues.
Speaker: For me, it's really interesting.
Speaker: And one of my favorite phrases actually about this is, it's in the dark night.
Speaker: Harvey Dent says it a lot, this coin, he flips his coin.
Speaker: He talks about making your own luck.
Speaker: Now, I think that's a really interesting phrase because it can be conceived in two ways.
Speaker: It can obviously be conceived in the sense of free will in the terms that you have the ability or you have some effect on luck.
Speaker: Now, a little bit paradoxical because obviously luck is, you know...
Speaker: The whole point is it's chance.
Speaker: But that phrase is interesting because you could also view that as determinism.
Speaker: Making your own luck is just a part of this infinite regressive cause and effect.
Speaker: It gets so complicated.
Speaker: I don't want to put you guys on a rabbit hole, but just to ponder with that idea.
Speaker: So what do you guys think about that phrase?
Speaker: Where do you guys see that in?
Speaker: I was going to say, actually, it's quite an interesting idea, luck and sort of random chance, because I recently read something and it's basically saying that when you, let's say, flip a coin, it's never really random chance because there are so many other external factors.
Speaker: So it's like, how hard do you push it to flip it?
Speaker: what are the conditions around you all these things effectively can alter the way the end outcome of flipping that coin so luck is an idea or random chance is an idea which is just very much theoretical because of all these other practical things that come into place like when you make your own luck for example
Speaker: you know there are still things that are going to come in the way you could break your leg and it could just all be over so i think luck's a really sort of theoretical idea um because there are so many practical constraints or external factors what do you think diane yeah i i agree i think i'm not big believer in luck generally i don't really subscribe to the idea there's sort of luck involved
Speaker: I mean, I think I do it for practical reasons, mostly because it makes my life easier.
Speaker: And so it makes me take, makes me take accountability.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But even at a sort of purely theoretical perspective, I don't really just subscribe to, oh, well, nothing I can do about it because I do think even if, you know, let's say you're playing poker, which is a complete luck based game.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: your strategy can still kind of influence the game.
Speaker: I mean, you know, obviously do not gamble.
Speaker: I just have to say that now.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: If there's luck in anything, it's gambling.
Speaker: So do not gamble.
Speaker: What do you think, Adam?
Speaker: I think, yeah, it's interesting with luck.
Speaker: Now, I think
Speaker: I definitely agree with some of your points in the sense that you shouldn't go around with the idea that, you know, you're a lucky person.
Speaker: I think there definitely are lucky people.
Speaker: And the reason for that is, you know,
Speaker: You know, people are born with, you know, terrible conditions, but like from birth, these incredible defects, people, you know, suffer great loss or tragedy or injury for absolutely no reason.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You know, they wake up one day and they have a congenital disease or illness, like, you know, people suffer from all these things.
Speaker: So in that sense, I, I do believe in luck, but not.
Speaker: in gambling or things like that, I find it very difficult to grasp that kind of idea because it's completely linked to free will and determinism.
Speaker: Luck is a really interesting thing because a lot of, if you take the perspective of people who subscribe to determinism, you'll find that they'll find that they'll have a certain amount of luck in their life.
Speaker: And depending on how much luck that they've been given, right, because you don't have the choice to make your own luck or, you know, be blessed by luck.
Speaker: It's interesting.
Speaker: And then with free will, again, with luck,
Speaker: can you make your own luck i don't know it's interesting because yeah it's such a difficult concept to kind of to ponder because it there's so many aspects you know you could some people and it's also highly subjective because you know some people will think every time they get in a car and they don't get in a car accident they're lucky right because people do get so there's so many avenues but if we kind of simplify it a little bit i'd probably go with
Speaker: I do believe in luck to an extent.
Speaker: That's probably where I would.
Speaker: I think you can definitely also kind of like that phrase, make your luck.
Speaker: I think you can definitely improve your odds.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, 100%.
Speaker: I think, so, you know, let's say you're in a, you know, 100 meters race and it's very close, right?
Speaker: You know, the last race you were at, there was a one, like three millisecond difference, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Definitely with training,
Speaker: and with a lot of hard work, you can improve your chances of winning that race.
Speaker: Is there a small amount of luck involved, that fact you don't trip over or that you don't have a full start?
Speaker: Yeah, maybe.
Speaker: You could say that's luck.
Speaker: But you can also say that's really hard work and preparation.
Speaker: So I think it's all about perspective.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree with that, definitely.
Speaker: It's... Oh, God.
Speaker: It's such a... I think that this whole argument of free will is quite difficult to kind of grasp because it...
Speaker: ultimately determines how we live our lives, but not even on a minuscule scale, like on the sense of everything you will ever do is predetermined.
Speaker: Like if you actually just kind of sit back for a second and go, hold on, that's like an incredible thing.
Speaker: And the other thing, which the only reason why I definitely don't subscribe to determinism is
Speaker: as an agnostic is there's no explanation for it.
Speaker: There's no, you know, the good thing with free will is it's self-contained, right?
Speaker: If you as an agent, as a human being are responsible for your actions, but if something else is responsible for your actions, well, what is it?
Speaker: If you don't subscribe to a God of classical theism or God, what has determined your life?
Speaker: And then there's even these more difficult questions like, where is it?
Speaker: Where is it stored?
Speaker: Where is it kept?
Speaker: How does it show me?
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And there's always the idea of that, you know, there's a lot about this universe and world we have no idea about and we will never have any idea about.
Speaker: But that doesn't mean, you know, we can definitively say it doesn't exist, but we can't definitively say it does.
Speaker: And then you have to kind of look into the realms of Occam's Razor of going, well, the simplest answer is usually the correct one.
Speaker: But I don't really think there is an Occam's Razor in this sense, because
Speaker: Well, or maybe there is actually, maybe I retract that.
Speaker: I think there is.
Speaker: And probably the fact that determinism is with our current understanding and knowledge not possible in the sense of physical capabilities of we understanding of how information is stored.
Speaker: But that isn't to say
Speaker: in a thousand years or how you know 50 or any spectrum of time in which we've advanced more should we still be alive and haven't all killed ourselves in some last world war um you know be able to understand this i mean one of my favorite things i went to recently i went and watched in the interstellar re-release in the imax who you are
Speaker: incredible thing, but that in itself really actually coincidentally sparked my kind of ideas of free will in the sense of them going through a wormhole to another time hole.
Speaker: But this idea of traveling through time and space, it does lead you to the question, I mean, I'm going a little bit down a rabbit hole here, but of, you know, if we do have determinism for everything,
Speaker: Is it only exclusive to human beings?
Speaker: Is it exclusive to planets to you know, to the universe as a universe have its own determinism?
Speaker: Like there's so many of these questions, but then also free will allow free will is usually only associated with, you know, cognitive beings, not like rocks and stuff, but.
Speaker: then again you have to kind of look in in the sense of can determinism and free will exist in the same universe so that will be my next question to you two because obviously you know the earth or the earth orbits the sun like it doesn't have a choice that's what it does but is there is there a sense of free will about its positioning you know the sense of an asteroid coming because if you believe in free will surely determinism can't exist what do you guys think about that
Speaker: I think definitely when you look at the universe for me, I see a lot of determinism.
Speaker: I see, you know, as you said, the orbiting of the planets.
Speaker: Also the idea that a lot of scientists in general just believe that the universe is going to end, like, well, Earth is going to end one day.
Speaker: Like, what is it?
Speaker: The sun's going to explode.
Speaker: And they've said it's determined that the world is going to end.
Speaker: However, I do think within that, within the universe, there is a, there is part of free will to play.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think there's a view sort of of soft determinism and that is our behavior sort of constrained by the environment or biological makeup to a small, to like a certain extent.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But within that, we have a bit of free will.
Speaker: So, you know, for example, an asteroid could hit us and knock us off path a little bit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, yeah, maybe it will change human life a bit.
Speaker: That's free will, I guess.
Speaker: So I think there's bits of, there's sort of glimmers of free will.
Speaker: However, when I look at the universe, I do see a largely sort of determined thing.
Speaker: What do you think, Dan?
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's a very important question that Kenan has brought up.
Speaker: I look at it from a sort of... It's very complicated to say if you are a believer of the creation story, whether it's true or not, to say whether that is determinism or free will.
Speaker: That is very difficult to say.
Speaker: But I would sort of classify it as...
Speaker: a second-hand determinism.
Speaker: That's how I'd classify it as, in a way.
Speaker: Yeah, in what sense?
Speaker: I think, you know, there's been a choice made in creation...
Speaker: But the universe now with the spinning and the, you know, the orbiting and all of the other natural factors such as, you know, the water cycle, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: I feel like that's a determined thing.
Speaker: It's like almost like a watch ticking.
Speaker: I don't want to make the watch analogy with William Paley because I don't think it's necessarily good.
Speaker: It's like a watch ticking, you know, you build it and then it's determined to move a certain way or, um,
Speaker: Or a TV, you know, you build it and you've got a remote.
Speaker: When you press the remote, you know, it's meant to do a certain thing.
Speaker: I feel like it's a function, maybe secondhand determinism, if, you know, that's how odd.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What do you think, Canon?
Speaker: I think, I mean, I said it on my opening point, it's very hard to kind of determine whether they can coexist.
Speaker: Can determinism and free will exist in the same universe?
Speaker: Because...
Speaker: It goes back to my point about turning into a pigeon and flying.
Speaker: Well, if there's a natural law which is constricting or is constraining to one being, surely then it should be constraining to all.
Speaker: But a pigeon can fly.
Speaker: It wills to fly.
Speaker: It gets very complicated because you have to kind of...
Speaker: I mean, it all kind of almost boils down to definitions, but as always with the most philosophical debates and discussions, you know, you have to kind of, if we disregard that for argument's sake,
Speaker: it's you kind of you have to be able to kind of determine whether you you think that we can have freedom and determinism because this whole sense of if you think freedom is complete freedom then of course you think they can't coexist but then there's so many aspects of determinism in the universe it makes it hard to completely disregard it so I
Speaker: just through kind of the empirical evidence that I've been exposed to would say that they do coexist.
Speaker: I think there's more determinism than free will.
Speaker: And I think free will is something which is unique to cognitive beings only, um, to my current understanding, because it'd be quite a ludicrous claim to say that
Speaker: has its own free will unless you subscribe to Gaia hypothesis and you think the earth is a living organism and all of that stuff but on the whole if we just take it like that I think they probably coexist but I think there's a lot more determinism than free will
Speaker: Oh, well, with that, I think we can finish this very good discussion on free will versus determinism.
Speaker: A big thank you to Kenan for coming on today.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you for having me on.
Speaker: It's been amazing.
Speaker: Many thanks, Kenan.
Speaker: And I'm sure we'll collaborate in the future.
Speaker: I'm sure.
Speaker: Bring some other very stimulating discussions to our listeners.
Speaker: As always, if you like the episode, please do leave us a comment down below.
Speaker: Do follow the podcast and leave us a five-star review.
Speaker: And as ever, do listen back to the episodes that we have previously had on.
Speaker: A great episode on absurdism last week.
Speaker: And I look forward to seeing you next week.
Speaker: I'll see you soon.
