Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 12: Furniture & Mattress (Arranger)
261 Plays2 months ago
In this episode, hosts Alan and Syrenne are joined by Furniture & Mattress, the team behind Arranger: A Role-Puzzling Adventure. Topics include the development of Arranger, designing puzzles and narrative in a world where every step counts, and the challenge of naming games.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Dragneck & Friends
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Dragneck & Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Seren, the producer at Dragneck & Friends, and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazilden, the head dragneck at Dragneck & Friends.
00:00:35
Speaker
Hey. Today, we're joined by Fruncher and Mattress, who you may know from their work on a Ranger, a role-puzzling adventure. How are y'all doing today? Doing well. Thank you.
Meet the Guests: Fruncher, Mattress, and David Hellman
00:00:46
Speaker
ah Would you like to go around and introduce yourself with your name, pronouns, maybe some things that you've worked on, what you're doing? Sure. I guess since I spoke first, I'm David Hellman.
00:00:58
Speaker
Um, he, him artist worked also on braid. A lesson is learned, but the damage is irreversible. Webcomic second quest graphic novel. That's me.
00:01:11
Speaker
OK, should I continue? I'm Nico Recavarren. I'm from Argentina. And I'm the game designer plus programmer in a render. And I made other puzzle games like Ethereal in the past. And yeah, that's all I can remember of myself.
00:01:33
Speaker
Hello, I'm Nick Suttner. I, he, him. And let's see, before we made Arranger, well, on Arranger, I was the writer and producer and business guy, and we kind of all shared creative direction. um And I worked on a game called Carto before that as the writer. I worked i wrote a game called Blood Roots. um Yeah, those were the last couple. I also run game publishing at Panic, who published Untitled Goose Game. And thank goodness you're here and such. um And I'll also mention that I host a podcast as well called Eggplant the Secret Lives of Games. And we are in the midst of doing an entire year on all 50 of the games in UFO 50, which has been really fun. So ah yeah, hello. Thanks, y'all, for having us on.
00:02:20
Speaker
Of course.
Getting Into Game Development: Early Influences and Personal Journeys
00:02:22
Speaker
So what got all of you into game development in the first place? Because everyone has their own weird story of how they fell into this. Hmm. Yeah, I think that's our question. What's the what's the fast version? Nico, you first.
00:02:40
Speaker
I mean, I think like I have the the less fun answer because I can impression that as far as I remember, I was kind of interested in that. So it's like all my steps in life were like, okay, I'm getting closer to that. But I don't know if I ever had any other like work prospect or anything. like it' like Even if when I talk with my friends from in my hometown or my family, like they everyone always said like, oh, yeah, they were always into that. It's like, I feel like I've been very, very like one dimensional on that aspect. what What made you want to get into games, Nico?
00:03:18
Speaker
Oh, I think playing games, right? like I feel like I have such a... I don't know. Sometimes I feel like some of my a first connections with other people were through games. like I remember having playing games with my dad and my brother on a very old PC.
00:03:36
Speaker
And yeah, I feel like that was like a kind of a very strong ah feeling to have and maybe other kind of activities never actually got me there and like and and the same level of intensity. So in a way, I feel like that was like my way of connecting with people.
00:03:53
Speaker
And then then when Tommy was like, OK, I enjoy playing games, but what if this game was like just a little bit different? And it was like always like fantasizing about that. And I feel like eventually when I found out how to make some stuff, I started to see like a like a nice future if I follow that thread. Nice. David, after you.
00:04:16
Speaker
Oh, okay. I can relate to that. I mean, I wouldn't say I was as exclusively focused on games as you or Nico, but they were always there for me. And I think, you know, and I always loved doing artwork and creative things and making things happen on a screen was really rewarding somehow. Like it felt like it was being published already or something.
00:04:37
Speaker
I don't know why that was more exciting to me than like drawing on paper, which I did as well, but there was just something special about getting a thing on the screen. And yeah, I think also because games were just taking form as we were growing up, I can relate to what you said about having a critical eye to it as well. I'm thinking, this is great, but how would I make it different?
00:04:59
Speaker
And that was just something I thought about a lot in high school in particular and going forward from there. So i was I think I had this feeling like this medium is coming into existence or maturing and it's kind of the new thing in my time. And I felt drawn to something that was just forming because it seemed to it seemed to be ready for a challenge. like And I don't say this to self-aggrandize, but it's it was something that did motivate me, the idea that we can improve on this, we can like make it more powerful. But i already you know I loved what I was playing, Nintendo games and stuff like that, but this can also communicate things on deeper levels. That was kind of the the assertion i I made even to my friend group at the time, and sometimes to be met with ridicule and derision.
00:05:44
Speaker
They're like, oh, games are already good enough. Like, there's no getting better than this. Right. yeah I think it's easy to sound a little pretentious when you start talking about the play to as parable of the cave in reference to ah Zelda linked to the past and how the dark world reflects the truth of the light world and this and that. so I was also going to mention, I just remembered that um in high school, our English teacher had us do that exercise where as like a freshman, you write a letter to your like graduating senior yourself.
00:06:15
Speaker
And then she hung on to the letters for four years and then give them to us, which was pretty cool to begin with. And I still had that letter somewhere. And in that letter, it's like basically says like, oh, I hope you're off to do like game development. um yeah And took a while. I feel like I feel like my whole journey was like this unrepeatable, weird series of like stupidly risky events of like move to the West Coast with, you know, with like an unpaid internship in games. um and just like you know quit your job and and then like get an internship at the place you want to work, and then go through a bunch of layoffs and wind up at a bigger company. Just a whole series of things that you know I went from being on sort of the journalism writing about games side to over time making games. But um it's hard to feel like, especially as someone with no technical skill set, that that's a possibility. So it's exciting now to kind of be here and to find great collaborators to pull these things off with.
00:07:13
Speaker
And I think similar to David, in a way, I'll say there were moments. I mean, I maybe didn't have the the foresight to think like games can be better, but I think playing games um like Shadow of the Colossus was a big turning point for me, which which people kind of maybe that was my favorite game and went on to write a book about it. But that game, I think, really you know gave me a lot of ah feelings and aesthetic inspiration and you know made me think in a different way that such that it really inspired me to, ah yeah, imagine a bigger possibility space of things I could be working on to and really push further to want to get into games professionally.
Fascination with Puzzle Games: Why They Matter
00:07:53
Speaker
Amazing. And what about puzzle games specifically? Like, do you have a particular interest in puzzle games? Did you just end up making this puzzle game? What's your relationship to to that genre?
00:08:06
Speaker
I mean, in my case, I have the imp impression that for me, it's a fun thing to develop. In my head, I feel like there are all sorts of games that you start to see the most of the fun of it once it's playable and other people play with it.
00:08:28
Speaker
But puzzle games have this thing that they are fun even before they are done. or I don't know exactly it's exactly how to express that, but it's like all the things that happen in your head and how do you like start like finding them, it's like a different kind of game. It's like a game before the game. And I think that's one of the things that I always end up drawn into is like, yeah, I want to feel that again.
00:08:54
Speaker
um And yeah, I think that's mainly the reason why I end up making puzzle games often. I think I mean, I've always been a fan of puzzle games. It wasn't a a thing I was necessarily always at the forefront of my mind to make. I think in part because I think puzzle games are more rarely a vehicle for, um yeah, I don't know. ah I mean, arguably we could spend the whole time talking about this, but um but sort of the stories told through puzzle games and the ideas and different movies expressed and things, I think often it doesn't tend to be the genre that really likely lives into that or
00:09:35
Speaker
or creates that possibility space. um But I think maybe that's in part what was exciting about this is like Nico is such a great designer and his whole idea for this was like taking this really clever puzzle mechanic and like what would this mean if we put this in the context of a bigger world and we can tell stories around that and we can create different moods and I think that was exciting to all of us.
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah, I'm thinking about it as you guys were talking. um Puzzle games are probably not my personal kind of favorite genre or area i into my own gameplay. I tend to like things that are more kinetic and embodied. Like I'm i'm here in this world. I feel a sense of weight and physics and presence. David Ollie plays the futuristic racing games like Wipeout.
00:10:19
Speaker
Yes, exactly. But i do you know the two games I've worked on ah you know that I've made significant significant contribution to, and the two primary games I worked on are both puzzle games. And that's been, has felt like a really good fit for me from the creative side.
00:10:38
Speaker
You know, I guess those are both games where there's a ah narrative aspect and um a thoughtful sense about it. I guess in contrast to like, yeah, I mean, Wave Race 64 or something like that, where, you know, it is about the interaction of the operating components in the world and the simulation, but it's, you can succeed in that um through developing an intuitive feel And it's not important that you be able to stand back and say, I did this by this series of decisions. In fact, that might be kind of contrary to like, getting good at the game, you just want to feel it you understand, understand in a certain way, but
00:11:20
Speaker
the real meat of it or but the advanced level is when it becomes intuitive. and If you were to complete a puzzle in a puzzle game and say, I'm not sure, I just kind of felt it out, the designer might say, well, that's not really ideal. like I didn't want you to just kind of bump into it until it was finished. I wanted you to have an insight.
00:11:39
Speaker
and I don't know, I'm just putting this thought together now, but I think that that kind of approach is a nice complement to, like I said, the narrative elements and just the thoughtful feeling as you play and more cerebral, um which is a nice thing to create art for because there's the art can engage with the story and the themes and the atmosphere of the whole thing. The mentality of the player is a kind of thoughtful mentality.
Exploring 'Arranger': Mechanics and Design Insights
00:12:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:08
Speaker
and As we're sort of relating that into a Ranger, for people who have not played a Ranger, a Ranger is... what What is your elevator pitch for a Ranger? What is your one sentence? Because I could describe it, but you you probably have done this way more than me.
00:12:29
Speaker
I can, I have one too. I think we all do. Cause I know, yeah, go for it, David. If you got one, I know, I know Nico doesn't like to do this. yeah i I think you should all write down on a piece of paper what your answer is and then see what, how similar they are. Yeah. This is like the newlywed game. It's like, what would David say?
00:12:46
Speaker
Just want to say that I don't have an elevator pitch, and i ah every time I express what the game is, i did I say something different and probably bad. So I trust the guys do a better job than me. Niko's never stepped into an elevator because he's worried someone's going to ask him about what games he makes. So ah yeah he has very buff legs for mojing all the stairs. But yeah, David, if you if you had one, go for it. OK, well, I've adapted stuff. like Something that Niko said is it it was a Rubik's Cube put onto a 2D plane turned into a whole world. I could say that better, but it's it's a world that's based on a Rubik's Cube behavior on a... Shoot, I'm screwing it up. It's been too long since the game released. you yeah This muscle is atrophied.
00:13:33
Speaker
Because, yeah, like in like a very rote and mechanical description, 2D, grid-based, you're playing as a character moving around. It's a ah role-puzzling adventure, as in like you are playing a character. But every time you move, your character is not walking from one tile to the next. They are shifting the tiles around them. Yeah.
00:14:00
Speaker
That is a lot of forethought into every action that the player needs to take. A phrase that I think Nick came up with is when you move, the world moves. Is that right, Nick? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the like, it's a game that I think is.
00:14:15
Speaker
it In practice, once you play it for a bit, it starts to click and make sense. But it's a it's a game that when you do play it for a bit and you internalize it, you kind of just get used to it. But I think we did find to be surprisingly difficult, even when you're watching a trailer for people to understand how it works, or even playing the first few minutes of the game. The kind of like onboarding, if you'd never touched it, is is maybe slower than we expected. But yeah, basically, if you any any column or row that you move in ah Any objects or other characters or anything um will move as well on that same row or column as you move. um
00:14:48
Speaker
But yeah, basically creating sort of a dynamic world that feels a little chaotic as you move around and puts, you know ah allows us a space to create puzzles for you to move through as you move around on this big interconnected grid that spans the entire world um in kind of a Zelda style world in some ways and a place that we can, it it covers everything. it It spans combat and storytelling.
00:15:13
Speaker
um and exploration. um So yeah, that's kind of what coheres the game. Yeah, and I guess one of the things I really like about the game is how you you take that core mechanic, but you put twists on them, which are both tied into the story of what's happening, but also very mechanical twists on the concept. It feels like any time you're coming up with a gameplay variation, you you wanted to do it in a way that was also like hair heavily um based on the story you're trying to tell.
00:15:48
Speaker
Yeah, I know. I think what I found very funny when we were like initially like working with that mechanic in particular, like just a movement, is that it can be 50% of any other mechanic in a way. it was So if if you took like the basic movement and you add something to it, not something that is completely unrelated, it's something that works with that movement,
00:16:11
Speaker
we could make like a lot of different ah like minigames based on that. And I think we had a lot of space to actually adapt those minigames to whatever was happening in the game. I think it was like a back and forth with the story part that I think we we we had a lot of degrees of ah freedom, I think, with that basic mechanic. So I think it was very interesting to to make.
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah, and as you mentioned, there is a story and a very um sweet and funny story, which Nick headed and and wrote all the dialogue for and and developed um about a girl looking for her community, basically. And then there's a you know visually, there's a unique visual presentation with comic book style panels augmenting the the scenery. So it all it all kind of is a unique package. And yeah, they all these parts all interrelate really nicely.
00:17:04
Speaker
I should add, too, thanks to you both, Saran and Alan, for being a part of this production. I mean, Saran definitely helped us out for a stretch during production. And um Alan has been like one of our like design mentors um pretty much from the start. So you both are certainly in our credits and ah we're a part of the project. So we appreciate that, too. Of course. And in our hearts. and and You're on the credits in my heart. And literally.
00:17:33
Speaker
One thing that I want to sort of dive in on as we're as we're talking about like the structure of the game is balancing the difficulty of bespoke designed puzzles versus the difficulty of world interactions.
00:17:54
Speaker
And by what I mean by that is that like very, very early in the game, first thing you do is you go out into the town and it is like the very, very core tutorial for like, this is how you move. This is how the world is going to react to you. This is like you're meeting characters, but to get to the characters that the player has to figure out how the world works.
00:18:15
Speaker
And that in itself is inherently sort of a puzzle that and has its own balancing and tweaking. And then when you get through that and you start doing sort of dungeons, you get much more bespoke, maybe what someone would traditionally call a puzzle game of like, here is a specific room with like, you enter, there's an exit, the goal is to get to the exit.
00:18:45
Speaker
And then as you leave that and you get into other towns, it starts adding more mechanics and like wrinkles. But like how do you balance the intentionality of having those specifically authored puzzles versus where the whole world can be a puzzle?
00:19:05
Speaker
Yeah, I think there is like a very, I mean, maybe when I say it, everyone will start noticing and it's going to be less exciting. But there are like a very different like It's like a space control or something. It's like and we are giving different amount of room for you to do things based on our goal ah for the like as designers. right So for instance, when you go to a specific puzzle, you're going to see that you have less a possibility space because you have to do this thing specifically related to that mechanic.
00:19:43
Speaker
And when you go to an open area, it's most likely that you don't have to do any of those specific things. It's more like a traversal thing that you just have to move to ah play to another or talk with a certain character and stuff like that.
00:19:58
Speaker
And even in in bigger areas, there are different ways that we found to constrain those spaces. Like, for instance, if you are in in in the second town that has like a big body of water there, we have puzzles in the overworld, but they are surrounded by water. So there is no way that you can get like and like You can't mess those up because of that. I think we we made different kind of tweaks to and in that sense to keep those like spaces controlled in a way.
00:20:30
Speaker
Yeah, and I think the term I use is like a looseness of puzzles. and I think that there definitely still are puzzles in the overworld, but um they're not puzzles that have like a pre-defined like, oh, this is the only precise set of moves that will get you through this. It's very loose and like, oh, you kind of need to do something in this shape, but like it doesn't really matter what.
00:20:55
Speaker
where the puzzles in the dungeons are often like the term I use is like tightly constrained and like um yeah like the space is much tighter and um the the options are much more i'm like oh well you you kind of have to do something like this or you just won't do it at all. Yeah that's pretty true.
00:21:18
Speaker
I think that's also maybe wanting to capture some of the feeling of exploration in those kind of spaces between and think more about like just just a very simple degree of player expression and how you move through the world and which spaces you want to explore and how deeply and we have some optional puzzles there too. So I think wanting to give that feeling of exploring a space which I think does require some more of that looseness and how many puzzles puzzles we put in your way and how prescriptive we are about the solutions. So still wanting to ah you know express the game mechanics as you move around always so it has this nice kind of cohesive
00:21:56
Speaker
feeling, and you are always on the grid, and that's just ah the character Gemma's way of like seeing the world, um but in those spaces, be able to be a little more playful and a little more exploratory. Yeah, no that all makes sense. That's awesome.
00:22:10
Speaker
So I'm i'm curious, like I saw this game in a ah lot of different versions over the time you were working on it. And I was always kind of worried about the structure of like, oh, there there's this linear story. And that means there needs to be like a linear sequence of puzzles. And in a game where there's a lot of linear puzzles, it kind of only requires one bottleneck where something is slightly harder than you think it is. So that, too, means that people bounce off the rest of the game.
00:22:37
Speaker
And I know you were thinking about that a lot during development. I'm curious, like, yeah, how you ah you rearrange the game, how you're thinking about that puzzle, that problem, um how much you were play testing and how you were responding to play testing to to adjust that?
00:22:50
Speaker
um I don't feel like ah we have a very, very thoughtful process to address that. like I feel like we tried our best to prevent it, but we were aware of a dish of the issue. and We tried to test the game with as many people as we could. and they're more like There are areas that were tested more than other areas. and by But I think the the stuff that we were like learning early on really helped to avoid those same kind of challenges in later areas. So it was a constant. like like All pieces of feedback were like useful, not only for the actual spots that they were given for, but also for future spots. But yeah, I think it was try and error until we we were like as happy as we could, given also like our timeline and stuff.
00:23:44
Speaker
So yeah, I think like i don't have... like a I don't know if the guys like receive a a more like a thoughtful process, but I think my honest answer is that I don't feel like I were in control of any of that.
00:23:59
Speaker
I think also a little bit by nature of ah kind of what you were talking about earlier, Alan, if we we do lots of little twists on the main mechanic, but I think we intentionally never go too deep on any of them. Like we we've talked about this before, but, you know, we're trying to create something that that has enough for momentum and that you really don't get, you know, too bogged down in trying to sort of deeply understand what mechanic or utilize it in a in a complex way. And some people didn't like that about the game or some reviewers and it's kind of funny, because for us, it was like super intentional. And some people are like, Oh, they never really took for a full advantage of this web mechanic. And we were like, Yeah, that you're meant to sort of just get a taste and
00:24:38
Speaker
and and enjoy it and move on. um But I think that nature also meant that we avoided getting into sort of overly complex situations where you're having to think about like here's five of the puzzle mechanics you learned and now you need to all execute them in one big complicated space. So I think just by nature of the sort of design pacing and difficulty, we managed to, I think some of the harder puzzles in the game are some of the ones that have the fewest elements on screen. um Like, oh, there's only one enemy and one sword. And like, how could you possibly like catch them when they can jump away from you? And so I think like creating spaces that aren't overwhelming, but the player, I think, hopefully feels empowered enough that they have all the knowledge to solve it, they just need to
00:25:27
Speaker
ah you know, think creatively. But yeah, like Nico said, it was certainly trial and error. um And, you know, doing some friends and family play testing as much as we could. And we did have some, of course, we had like QA and everything toward the end. But, um but yeah, I think there was never too intentional of a process with that. I don't know, David, do you have thoughts on kind of the difficulty and such?
00:25:51
Speaker
I guess from the art side, um the presentation format we settled on was one that really um gives primacy to the puzzle grid and tries to really keep the focus there. And even later in the process, some of the adjustments I was making was to ensure the grid was really legible um and bright and stood out from the rest of the environment. And the environment, as I mentioned, is kind of um The presentation is unconventional. There are scenery elements and then the background is kind of abstracted. And then there are these illustrations that are like a different pictorial mode. But it but the the grid actually became, ah really um I guess earlier on when I was trying, something I'm maybe digressing a little here, but I'm trying to speak to the um
00:26:42
Speaker
clarity, visual clarity, to support comprehension and to help the player understand the puzzle, which is a critical thing. um Earlier on, with a more conventional um more conventional presentation of the environment, more sort of traditional with like scenery filling out to the edges of the screen,
00:27:03
Speaker
I felt that the emphasis was on on all this extraneous detail of like trees repeating and that kind of thing. And I never felt like I was able to make it feel natural because the grid was so obviously a grid and had to be such. I didn't want to try to hide that or make it less grid-like. It had to be very clearly a grid so you can understand movement and relationships, spatial relationships. and and everything. So yeah, it felt much more natural when I just rather than try to contradict that artificiality with like a more naturalistic environment that would all blend together or something. I just said, okay, this is artifice and the grid is the first compositional stroke that Nico made.
00:27:50
Speaker
And often I like like the shape of the grid shapes and I found it to be a useful and appealing first compositional stroke, which then I would support with scenery pieces like selectively placed around and then, as I mentioned, ah other other pieces that kind of ah sort of in descending hierarchical order of like presence or emphasis.
00:28:13
Speaker
So yeah, the making the grid really central, really legible um was it was a key thing just to support all the design work going on. Yeah, that's really interesting because like, yeah, the grid is obviously like grids are very gritty, but the comic panels are so un-gritty. And I guess I hadn't really consciously picked up on like, oh, how much contrast that gives. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that does make the grid stand out more because you've got the other stuff there.
00:28:44
Speaker
Yeah, that's a a great observation. And, you know, as I mentioned, the original, ah you know, the earlier approach was to try to cohere the entire scene into one, you know, conventional presentation, which I don't know if the listeners will know what I mean, but just like it's a Zelda game. So you can walk on the ground and then the ground is surrounded by trees and houses and other things that represent like places you can't go. They're solid, they're walls.
00:29:09
Speaker
but they fill out to the edge of the screen as you'd expect. Like you're looking at it a world that goes to the edge of your vision. But in a ranger, we don't do that. It's more like the grid is hovering in space. And then there are supplementary visual things that are, some of them are scenery, like trees and houses that are near the grid. And then there are other pictorial modes like abstract patterns um and these comic panels. And yeah, by by kind of letting the grid be gritty, like you said, it actually gave me a lot of freedom to be non-gritty with
00:29:42
Speaker
some of the other pictorial modes. um So it was kind of more polarized in a way, like don't try to contradict the essential gaminess of this thing, embrace it, but then it opens up a space to depart in a way that I wouldn't be able to. Like those comic panels can depict any viewpoint, they can show the horizon, they can show close-ups of small objects, they can show even characters reacting to what's happening sometimes.
00:30:09
Speaker
And that wouldn't be possible if the presentation was just trying to present a consistent ah kind of rational ah portrayal of the environment. The grid has to be consistent and rational. The art can be atmospheric and evocative and kind of depart from that.
00:30:29
Speaker
This is also making me think and realize how much of this project was about kind of creating sets of constraints for each other in a way that I think was like really healthy and maybe it it it took us too long to do overall like deep in the project where we still like what what are the constraints we're working from but I think that actually you know, kind of made it work where, um you know, we kind of had to work back from some things like the the high level story beats and how we were going to express those and how can we express something more, you know, personal on the grid, um or, you know, actually, maybe if we, you know, David came up with this idea for these great comic panels, and so that can be more
00:31:12
Speaker
expressive. And so those are that's like a storytelling opportunity. Or if Nico has like an infinite possibility space of designing puzzles, like what constraints do we have there? Well, we need to, you know, it needs to serve certain characters in the game and their movement and what we can show. So I think a lot of that was about um once we knew sort of the the feel of the thing and the scope of the thing and ah what different things we had in our tool belt to express it. we sort of I think that helped narrow things down and give us enough forward direction to actually then just execute on it to make it and finish it and ship it.
The Development Journey of 'Arranger'
00:31:51
Speaker
It's just making anything, but but I'm just reflecting on and sort of us doing that as well.
00:31:59
Speaker
Yeah. That's interesting. What you said about us creating constraints for each other. And I don't know whether it um took too long or not. I mean, um, it, I can certainly look back and say, well, we, this was a dead end or this had to change, but I i still don't have a sense of like, if those things were really avoidable, given what we knew at the time. Yeah, totally.
00:32:20
Speaker
I'm kind of curious about your your workflows because something think I was thinking about as you were describing, um like the the art constraints, um like starting with the grid and then working off that is like, how how often did you have to redo a ah ah ah level to like tweak the difficulty of it and like did that how much did that mean like, oh, now this art has to be completely redone versus how much could could you just redo the the grid independent of the rest of the art? I think, I don't know exactly when this happened, but we we found like a very nice way to work with David on that sense. Like, I don't know, this may be a bit more like a specific for Unity users, but the thing is that
00:33:12
Speaker
that We have like one scene, it's like one level that had all like the logic elements, like all the grid, all the characters, all the things that i and you have to do that trigger something else and stuff like that. And every time that you enter a room,
00:33:26
Speaker
we loaded ah a specific, like we added to that logic scene, we added like a scenery scene. So David was always able to work on the interior of every area, I mean, sorry, on the scenery of every area independently of whatever I was doing on that like scenery scene. And we just had to be like very clean and and like,
00:33:50
Speaker
and ah coordinated when we were building what we call like the grid elements, the stuff that goes actually on the grid. But the rest of the time, was actually like we we were like and we weren't stepping on our toes too much.
00:34:06
Speaker
The only thing is that and we tried to do our best to iterate on the puzzles as much as we can we could and before he actually went into the scenery like creation, because otherwise he will need to change the scenery again, which, thankful to this process, it wasn't that bad, but it was more work, so we will try to avoid that as much as we can.
00:34:29
Speaker
And yeah, I think that the rest of the like changing the like layouts of levels and stuff of and those kind of things weren't very difficult. Like every title was easily placed and removed or whatever. So I think the workflow, maybe and from half of the projects, I don't know exactly how it was at the beginning, I can remember, but I think we got to a point where that part of ah ah of the workro workflow was kind of nice to do.
00:34:56
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I mean, yeah, like like you said, Niko, in general, your designs would be finished before I would come in and do the scenery. When the designs changed and the art had to be rearranged, um it was actually no big deal. i can't That doesn't take up a big part of my brain when I think about what happened. like i don't ah I feel like what I'm trying to say is maybe there were more instances of that than I remember.
00:35:19
Speaker
and I don't remember them because it was always no big deal and that's because the the art style had few pieces like it the the overall scene composition didn't even have that many individual objects to move to match an updated layout because of this collage style in contrast to earlier in the project when it was more of this like rational like filling out to the edge of the screen depiction of the world and I was placing a lot of trees and bushes and fences and objects individually then a layout change means moving 25
00:35:56
Speaker
30 objects or something in the style we arrived at, it was like a few things very quick. So a big part of when I was developing this collage style with the comic panels and everything, one of them the big reasons, the big push was to make it all faster because It actually came together fairly late, like two years and was a year and a half into the project or something. And we tried, we'd spent all this time with other approaches and it wasn't, this is a whole other story, but the art took some twists and turns before that collage style came about. So yeah, it had to be efficient to implement, to like cover all of the different locations we had and yeah, to enable some flexibility when the designs change.
00:36:38
Speaker
and you You said that change happens a year and a half or two years in. How long was the project overall? um sort of In active production for about three years, ah it was 2020, so about four years total. March 2020 was when you first started talking about it, of course, horrible timing in some ways.
00:37:00
Speaker
um and We spent about a year kind of um working on a demo and coming up with sort of ideas for the bigger game and pitching it and getting funding. And we had that funding kind of by like mid 2021 and then spent about three years sort of in more full active of production and then shipped it in July this year. This year being 2024 as of when we were recording because this podcast will release in 2025. OK, yes. True.
00:37:31
Speaker
As you're talking about those early stages of sort of concepting and pitching and getting funding, I'm curious just from a sort of biz dev side, how did you pitch and market this game as more than just a Zelda game, but also more than just a sliding tile puzzle? Like how did you sort of manage to get people to understand where the two met in the middle?
00:38:01
Speaker
How did you do now that, Nick, please? I'll explain. Yeah, I think we we spelled it out like kind of kind of overtly in our pitch deck in terms of we showed some some gifts of how the mechanic work works. And then we talked about putting it in the context of a bigger adventure. And David had like drawn some nice maps of a potential kind of overworld. um And we referenced games, um you know things like a short hike that we wanted to think about in terms of, like
00:38:33
Speaker
ah scope and breezy vibes um and things like Chicory and Wandersong and Crypt of the Necrodancer, I think with some obvious similarities, just like you know functionally. um So i think I think it was really about like, here's exactly what the game is. It's like a clever puzzle mechanic, but it's wrapped in a bigger world.
00:38:54
Speaker
And we are the ones to execute this for you know a few different reasons. We talked about our team, talked about the other partners we had on board. um I think you know ah because of my background in biz dev, like I've seen as many pitches as anyone probably. and Not that that made it easier to make our own, but I think at at at least I knew sort of the ground we had to cover. We also made a little overview video that David narrated that I thought was um a nice accompaniment of like, look, here's our whole situation, we here's what we're trying to make, kind of, are you into it or not? um Because we were pretty specific about the the vision we were pitching, I think. um And yeah, I think when we were about to start on that journey, you know, we talked to a few potential partners, but um Astra, ah who went to now are sort of a full publisher as Astra fund, who
00:39:49
Speaker
you know everyone here has worked with in in some some fashion. um They were pretty much looking for this type of of like thinky game. um And they happened to be sort of like just starting up as a fund while we were starting to pitch. And it just it felt like a really great match. And our pitch deck kind of like read a little bit like their their website and what they were looking for.
00:40:16
Speaker
And it just turned out to be a really good fit. So we ended up being like the first project that they signed. And we're got really glad to find a partner who really got it um from early on. But yeah, good question. Yeah, and Nick, you did a great job.
00:40:33
Speaker
leading all of that, and I think what we had to pitch with, as far as all those materials, the deck and the video, which, yeah, I narrated, but I think you you led all that stuff. um It was just a very clear story. I mean, it seems very common sense to look at it, but I think that's not so easy to pull off. Thank you, yeah. Yeah, I think we, um I guess I do find when I see a lot of other pitches, it it feels a little more flexible in a sense, and like, oh, we could make this version of the game or for this budget, we could make this version of the game and here's different scopes we could target. And I think to me, I'd always rather if someone's pitching to me, I'd rather just have sort of a more binary decision. It's like, look, here's the game you really want to make. Am I into it? Yes or no. So I think we really tried to make our pitch, you know, kind of clean in that sense and also relatively bulletproof. We're like, look, we have
00:41:29
Speaker
pop agenda on board to help us with PR and marketing and release management. We have Astra funding the game. We have some support from console platforms. We have our QA partner lined up. I think we sort of you know painted this picture that hopefully was like, look, if you're into the game, here's the thing we're going to make. There's there's always ah you know things to always go off the rails, of course, or take the longer room that we think or cost more than we think, which thankfully I think we weren't you know that late or that that much more expensive. but No, you are definitely not an offender on that at all. Thanks. um But yeah, I think we, you know, we tried to be pretty clear in that pitch of what we were making and what we could handle and sort of find the fine experts to help with the things that we weren't experts on. Yeah. And I like I was saying, I think it all came together really, really well. Thank you.
00:42:20
Speaker
Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, going from the very start to it coming together, it's kind of part of the same thing of like how you're talking about the game.
Blending RPG and Puzzle Elements in 'Arranger'
00:42:29
Speaker
I'm curious about the subtitle of the game, like a role-puzzling adventure. Did you feel like that was... Yeah. I mean, talk talk about your feelings about why you wanted a subtitle like that and how you chose that one.
00:42:42
Speaker
Well, we we needed a subtitle, I should say, if we wanted to trademark the name of the game or go through the US copyright office or whatever and be able to protect it. um There were enough other kind of adjacent things that it wouldn't have been been as strong a defense if it had just been called a ranger. And that's a whole sort of interesting legal journey that I think most games don't even bother with, and it works out most of the time, but we wanted to be a little more little more careful than that, I think. So we were... ah Yeah, so we...
00:43:15
Speaker
yeah I forget, actually, maybe it even took us a while to kind of land on. Arranger is the primary name. It's one of those names you sort of use for a long time. And then it kind of sticks. And then you're forced to look at a moment of like, oh, yeah, is this really your name or not? But then even the subtitle, you know we went through a lot of iterations to talk about it a lot. um I don't know if anyone else wants to speak to that process. But it was fun, of course, that naming things is is challenging too and actually getting um enough ah What's the word? Where we all agree on something. Anyway, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, consensus. Yeah. It was a funny process. We had a lot. I mean, I think you came up with a ranger, Nick, very early. I think so, yeah. And it felt like a good handy word. And now, of course, it just feels like inevitable and perfect. But I think we, well, we definitely considered a lot of alternatives, but they were like all really goofy. I don't think there was anything that really became a ah serious contender.
00:44:10
Speaker
Well, one thing that I remember that seems funny now is that at the at first, we weren't like expecting to have a subtitle at all. But the style of the subtitle is the same as one of the expressions that we use in our pitch deck and the first pitch deck.
00:44:26
Speaker
Because we were calling the game a role-passing game, right an RPG, we were saying. It's very nice that we we end up doing like some kind of version of that, including in the last version of the game. It was a nice thing. Yeah. And I think also the the name Arranger, we have this sort of like, I mean, not to get too spoilery, but like an Arranger is something in the game, and that means something. And that led to like kind of a bunch of the lore of the game and was tight and nasty with that. So it's nice that it is, you know, fits the sort of like verb of moving around and arranging things on screen, but also has deeper meaning within the game. um
00:45:06
Speaker
um Yeah, and I'm trying to think more about the subtitle. I think, you know, it is pretty cheeky. I know definitely some folks took umbrage of like, this isn't an RPG, um even though it's RPG is like not a thing that I could even fully define myself, but... if Everybody disagrees what that means. I find it really strange. Yeah. Nobody knows what an RPG is, but everyone knows what it isn't. Right. Well, apparently we're not an RPG because... Well, you play you are role playing as Gemma.
00:45:33
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Gemma is a role in the game, the defined character. What are we doing here? I mean, I think i think it's it's less about like being part of a genre and it's more in my head, it's more about like setting expectations. Yes. um And that's kind of one of the reasons i I think it's an interesting subtitle in that I wonder if it does set the same expectations that you want it to.
00:46:03
Speaker
Yeah, i I don't know. um I think...
00:46:08
Speaker
It's you know, I think ideally it would be like a ranger, a puzzly Zelda adventure, but we can't call it that. But I think yeah the things that we want out of like a feeling of Zelda exploration, like I guess is Zelda an RPG? That's probably another whole different podcast. But I think generic action adventure. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the same genre as like uncharted and like 30,000 other things. like That's another meaningless term.
00:46:35
Speaker
Yeah, so we wanted that, I mean, I think there's enough RPG vibes of like, on an adventure, you're in town, in towns talking to people, ah you're going on quests, it's lightly fantasy themed, I think those are the things aesthetically, we wanted to communicate. um And I think even thinking back to kind of our pitch deck, too, and and actually, this is true in some of our like marketing,
00:46:57
Speaker
Also, having that as a baseline, we can say what we aren't, just kind of to your point. We're like, actually, while it's an RPG, in theory, we don't have an inventory of items. Everything that exists in the world is in the world as a physical presence. You can interact with it. It exists on the grid. It all you know is dynamic. um Or there's no like XP to to you know build up your character. um It's more like a knowledge thing. So I think also setting that expectation allows us to like subvert it a little bit. Again, hopefully in a cheeky way and people don't. They're not like angry that they thought they bought an RPG. but
00:47:34
Speaker
Yeah, to me, it's kind of funny. like I never really give a lot of thought to it. like I have impression that it's too, from my point of view, it's too obviously like a puzzle take.
00:47:47
Speaker
like a puzzle game take on an RPG, like a classic RPG, because of you have like characters, you have like a quest log, you have items that you can get when stuff happens and missions and whatever. like I feel like it's obviously not a RPG in the traditional sense, but it's clearly like a representation of that inside of this puzzle world. So every time that I read something that complains about it, it's like,
00:48:13
Speaker
To me, it feels so constrained, so like limited to that concept that feels like kind of funny. But I guess I can see that people won't take this one as ah as ah an RPG. But I don't think that was the point in the first place. So it's kind of funny.
00:48:29
Speaker
Yeah, I'm curious what you think, Alan, because since you posed the question, I mean, everybody may have a different ah different opinion about opinion on this. But I remember from and Nico, your earliest prototypes, um and even how you described the early development process, that it started as a kind of Rubik's Cube mechanic with RPG elements added into it. Those being a hero, who which looked which wasn't Gemma, looked like a soldier or medieval knight or something.
00:48:58
Speaker
um a sword, a monster, which was like a skeleton. So and then there was a town with a mage. So it really almost resembled like very early classic Dragon Warrior games or so or Dragon Quest, if you like, with this um kind of Rubik's Cube but type typed sliding behavior. So I mean, from that perspective, I think it's natural. I think it does like give you a sense. I mean, the main thing to to communicate is this is a genre mashup and it's a bit unconventional and you'll have, you'll be playing, you'll be, there's this pervasive puzzle thing that you're engaging with and yeah, world, story, characters. So at least it it kind of opens up the question and hopefully makes people curious exactly what this thing is. But what do you think?
00:49:48
Speaker
i mean yeah I mean, I don't know. like i I think- Endorse or condemn our subtitle, Alan, on your own podcast. Condemn. Condemn, if it's one or the other. yeah um I feel a relief in a weird way. No, i I think it's like the way I phrased it earlier is like, I don't think in my head it sets up the right expectations for what the game is, but it's hard to tell if like that is just my brain or whether it's like, oh, no, everyone, everyone will have exactly the same reaction to me. And in some ways it kind of doesn't matter. um Like the game kind of speaks for itself and the subtitle is like the least important thing about it.
00:50:27
Speaker
Is it because it doesn't, it's not an RPG to you? Uh, I think it's, it's not an RPG to me and, um, uh,
00:50:41
Speaker
And you hate puzzles. And I hate puzzles. I think it's it's not it's not an RPG, and and talking about it as an RPG doesn't foreground the interesting stuff that your game is doing. Maybe it's it's that. um like kind of Kind of a tangent, but like you're talking about like the early prototypes had like those, and you've got the knight and the mage.
00:51:07
Speaker
it's It's interesting that your game doesn't actually have combat. like like It has swords that go into monsters, but it's like it doesn't ever feel like you're doing combat. It feels like you're solving puzzles, to me maybe ah maybe. Maybe other people feel differently. um It's interesting because I think that like when I play the game,
00:51:32
Speaker
I am completing a lot of the verbs that I would in an RPG. And I want to be clear, RPG is like the genre of game I play the most. um Sorry, Alan. And like it it it is a lot of like the encounters, a lot of the quests. like The quest log being there is like really helpful. It's also a very structural way to think about the game.
00:51:57
Speaker
but the verbs I'm doing are puzzles, which is like an interesting way that it kind of flips the whole thing on its head. And I think that's probably why I like role puzzling more than role playing. I kind of come on this, the opposite side of Alan, where I'm like, yeah, that that subtitle, like when it makes you read it, it's not exactly what you expect. It's not role playing adventure. It's a role puzzling adventure. It kind of pumps the brakes just a little bit and makes you think about it.
00:52:25
Speaker
I mean, I do wish we had called the game Dragon Age Valeguard in retrospect. um That might have been a better move commercially. ZA is fine.
00:52:37
Speaker
Well, I say let the debate and controversy go on.
00:52:43
Speaker
And it's like the idea that Alan's making a bunch of like anonymous like burner social media accounts like harass us about the name. Oh, yeah. I mean, any negative comment you get about the name is actually me. Yeah. Do you get a lot? Do people actually care what the game's called? Largely. and I'd say largely it's been well received. Like I think it it gives people a way to talk about the game. I think a lot of like.
00:53:07
Speaker
reviews and such are like, oh, it's a role-puzzling venture. Let me tell you why it's called that and sort of talk about these different elements of our game that at least dip into both genres. And in some way, there have been a couple people who like really take umbrage with it and they're like, it's a great game, but it's not an RPG. And we're like, yeah, that's, that's, that's a, that's a fine take too. Um, uh, so I think largely it's been a good thing and I think we feel good about it. Um, but.
00:53:35
Speaker
You know, maybe it's impossible to find a universally beloved name. Yeah. I mean, that we all know that naming things is the most hard problem in video game design. and So you take what you can get through puzzling exhibitions.
00:53:53
Speaker
All right, here's a quick, we'll wrap up soon, but here's here's a question that I've actually been, this is a question for not for the audience, so I'm sorry audience, this is the most selfish question I've asked on this podcast today. Nick, did you run into any problems with Nintendo about having the subtitle for your game? Like during the submission and launch process, did they raise any red flags about is it called a ranger or is it called a ranger or role-puzzling adventure?
00:54:23
Speaker
Not that I remember. I think we called it like- Son of a- I think we called it the full name whenever possible. At times when it wouldn't fit, we would just call it a ranger as like a display name. But yeah, I don't think that was ever an issue. OK. Yeah, they wouldn't let us call a monster's expedition a monster's expedition through puzzling exhibitions ah because of character limits.
Engaging the Puzzle Game Audience
00:54:49
Speaker
So therefore, we had to make it a monster's x um expedition. And then we weren't allowed to display the subtitle on the key art because that was different than the product name.
00:54:58
Speaker
ah okay yeah that's oh Well, maybe you guys paved the road for us. Maybe. yeah I think both our um the first part of the name and the subtitle were both long enough that they were like, you can't have two titles. And um what if it felt like they were punishing us for trying to SEO game the system. But like we had launched on other platforms by this point. Yeah.
00:55:24
Speaker
This was like a, no, this is what it's called every everywhere. Okay. but Whatever, whatever you say. This is still, this is still a ah deep personal agreement. Yeah. This is, I've never run into this issue before.
00:55:39
Speaker
It did take us a while to, oh, the main name constraint was on mobile. um Yes. Which we released through Netflix. Cause you know, it's hard to have a full subtitle there. So that was, ah that was a whole other thing, but yeah, didn't run into that same issue. Well, i'm I'm happy for you genuinely. thank you I am. Just one of those pains you always carry. Yeah. yeah I'm sorry for the trauma.
00:56:06
Speaker
Look, i I've been in this space long enough that there are like 10 hyper-specific wounds that I have. yeah um Most of them not for public record. yeah um Before we go, do you have any questions for us, Alan or I, just in the context of people who worked on Arranger or in the context of Dragneck and Friends?
00:56:30
Speaker
I was thinking that, I mean, I always want to ask this to any person that works on puzzle games. And I think it's a very, like, recurrent question. um But I know that, I mean, I don't know exactly who is involved, of that but I'm assuming that both of you are with all of those, like, kind of, like, programs on and funding to puzzle developers and so and stuff like that. So I feel like you're actively working on supporting those kind of games. But I usually have this feeling that puzzle games asa as a concept are like something that is starting to get a bit scary as a game developer. like they're usually not the the games that sell the most of the games that yeah have the most like visibility and stuff like that, with a lot of exceptions, of course.
00:57:20
Speaker
But I know what are your feelings about that? like How do you feel in prospect ah in like the prospect of in the future about that? I mean, the the thing that I sort of go to is that and this is also kind of like this is like the ground level reason for why Dragon Act does a lot of things like the cerebral palsy showcase and the new voices puzzle grant is that this is a space where the average game performs worse than the average indie game, but you can still have a breakout. But I think a lot of that comes down to
00:58:02
Speaker
I think this is getting better over time, but especially a few years ago, the problem of sort of inter-genre player retention of a player plays Portal, they play Baba is you, they play, I don't know,
00:58:22
Speaker
like the Talos Principle, they have a great time with all of those games. They don't think to themselves, I like puzzle games. They think to themselves, those were some good video games I played.
00:58:35
Speaker
Like, how do you tie in and, like, give that kind of positive, like, inter-genre link and association in people's heads? And so, some of this is, like, sort of a puzzle showcase. Like, can we get big games and small games in the same showcase to, like, really emphasize that, like, no, if you like Outer Wilds, whole boy do I have five other games that I think you're gonna love.
00:59:03
Speaker
that just didn't blow up, that just didn't have that marketing push, right place, right time, right level of platform deal, right? Like there are a lot of games that are like, there's like three tiers in my head. There's like the average puzzle game release level of success. There's the like smash hit within the puzzle scene and it kind of bleeds out a little bit. And then there is the, this actually broke out into public discourse and conversation and is like showing up on your end lists. And how can we raise the floor for all three of those? um Alan, I'm sure you also have a lot to say.
00:59:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely true that there's way more people who play puzzle games and enjoy them than who self identify as puzzle game fans. And like, the people who identify as puzzle game fans, ah like little group of sickos, and the games that they love are like not mainstream.
01:00:07
Speaker
uh like they're way too hard and they have terrible graphics uh like largely uh i'm generalizing but like that kind of puts other people off from identifying as puzzle game fans as well i think it's like oh like well i didn't like this thing that was incredibly hard and ugliest in so i guess i don't like puzzle games i'm like well no you didn't like that puzzle game and i guess the other thing i think is that the puzzle games that break out and actually have mainstream success. I think there's there's kind of two ways you can get there. One is to have a ah really good gameplay hook. Like I think Patrick's Power Box breaks out due to that. Babies View breaks out due to that.
01:00:56
Speaker
And the other way you get a lot of people playing a puzzle game is by tricking them into it. ah Like, Obra Dinn is very striking ah visually. It's got such cool vibes. um So I think people pick up something like that just to just to see what it is. And they're going, oh, this is a puzzle game. Or like they don't even think, oh, this is a puzzle game. i Oh, this is this is cool.
01:01:22
Speaker
And actually I think that's maybe one of the reasons I think that your subtitle is interesting because I think it's another way of tricking people into trying it and like I say that very positively like i I like I fully support this like like if if you gotta trick people then.
01:01:40
Speaker
Yeah, by God, let's trick them. And so, yeah, I think Monster's Expedition tricks people into playing it just by being cute and approachable and appealing and has lovely vibes. And then they're playing it like, oh, oh. Like, I think the mainstream audience is not coming to that game for the great puzzles, even though there are great puzzles. They're coming for the vibes. And then the puzzles are just there as the so really good thing about it.
01:02:09
Speaker
It's also interesting as a genre because I think it's on the one hand, it's also kind of by far the biggest genre when you include like people playing wordle and crossword and all this other stuff like it's but but those are people who may not identify as like ah gamers, nevermind puzzle gamers. um And then I think there's sort of this other side of the coin as well, where in some ways, I think it's, I mean, I think it's, it does create problems for y'all and for us in a bunch of ways. But I think it's interesting to think about that. I think when people play Tails Principle 2, in some ways, I think it's good that they're not identifying it as a puzzle game. And it's just another game, um kind of like, you know, indies being broken out as their own category of game versus just games. Because I think
01:02:54
Speaker
There's also people who if they hear it's a puzzle game, they'll rule it out. So I think in some ways kind of obfuscating that a little bit. And ah to your point, Alan, like we definitely do, you know, there's like a little bit of a trick in our game, even if we hinted at it in the in the subtitle of like, oh, it's an adventure game, but also it's secretly a puzzle game.
01:03:13
Speaker
um So I don't know. It's a particularly interesting genre for that reason. And I think, I think, and just how, how big it is at a very casual level for people who wouldn't self identify that way.
Wrapping Up: Social Media and Credits
01:03:27
Speaker
We should all make action games like one of the more popular ones of all time, Tetris. Yeah.
01:03:39
Speaker
Yeah. Awesome. Uh, do you have any other questions for us? What does drag neck mean? Uh, it is just a unique username. I had to come up when I was like 13. Uh, I was signing up for Diablo two. Mm-hmm.
01:04:00
Speaker
and I had to come up with a name and so I wanted did some kind of like like warrior-y name like something that felt like in the world of Diablo this is what a character would be called so it's kind of got the etymology of like dragon slayer cutting off the neck of a dragon dragon neck drag neck
01:04:22
Speaker
But then, oh, I need an email address. Well, I've already got that name. Oh, I i need a Twitter handle. on No, I need a Twitter handle. I was already making games by that time. But yeah, it's just like, oh, here's a unique username. I guess I use that for everything. Oh, that's my company now? Oh, okay. It could be a dark stout if you want to use that. If you ever get into brewing. Noted.
01:04:47
Speaker
that that is That is a venture that I will not join you down, Alan, with respect. you can You can have the brewery all on your own. Hey, Ben, from ah lots of our games, he's he's done beer brewing. Respect to him. I don't know anything about it. I don't drink.
01:05:08
Speaker
All right. Uh, well, thank you again so much to all three of you, David, Nico, Nick for joining us. Thanks for having us on. yeah Thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Where can people find you online? Uh, what are our social media things at Fernamat games, I think, which is kind of our cute little portmanteau of our furniture and mattress. Um, full name.
01:05:34
Speaker
And arranger.quest has all the information about our games. um Let's see, individually, it seems like Blue Sky is maybe finally a thing. We'll see if that's still true if in 2025. I'm still not sure of my relationship with it, or if I'll be posting much there, but I guess I'm on there, I think, at the end. Yeah, I hope that Blue Sky sustains, because I just need something. We've been editing early episodes of this, and this can this can be in the final episode. I don't care. Everyone is plugging their co-hosts, because we recorded a few months ago. Which is now like a favorite of that, right? Yeah. No, completely defunct now. Right. Before this podcast, What Goes Live. And ah I need Blue Sky to stay.
01:06:27
Speaker
That's kind of why it's helpful to have something like a name like direct neck since you were 13, where it's just like, even if you like, Oh, I could probably find Ellen under that name on pretty much anywhere. Or to be the only siren in the United States. Whoa. Okay. Yeah. Nice. Good job. It's really easy to find me places.
01:06:45
Speaker
David or Nico, do do I have any personal accounts you want to promote? Yeah, my website is DavidHellman.art, which is a good starting place for anything. I'm on the major social platforms, including Blue Sky ah as David Hellman with two L's. And I'm Cabe Sota everywhere, I think, which is like head in Spanish, but with two T's.
01:07:14
Speaker
Is that no, well, it's like big head in Spanish. Yeah. Yeah. you're ah Your, uh, your cabe is Yeah. Thanks you all. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. I had a good time.
01:07:32
Speaker
All right. And thank you for listening to the Trackneck and Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoise.bandcamp dot.com. Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast source of choice, and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.