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Episode 429: What Does It Mean to be a 'Hungry Author'?
551 Plays3 months ago
Liz Morrow (@liz_morrow) and Ariel Curry (@arielkcurry) are the co-authors of Hungry Authors (@hungryauthors): The Indispensable Guide to Planning, Writing, and Publishing a Nonfiction Book (Rowman & Littlefield).
They are a special team and — with their powers combined — created a wonderful guide that is tactical, practical, and informative about how to navigate the business to get your book published.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Book Recommendation
00:00:00
Speaker
If I were to give away a one-page DIY MFA syllabus, a resource guide that is a list of books or essays, craft books, craft essays, and general know-how that gives you the meat of an MFA without the debt, Liz Morrow and Ariel Curry's new book, Hungry Authors, the indispensable guide to planning, writing, and publishing a nonfiction book,
00:00:24
Speaker
with top the list of books that will get you thinking about the industry you're in and how best to find readers for your work. Whereas a lot of other writing books focus on the writer, we really focus on the reader.
00:00:44
Speaker
Oh hey seeing efforts is the creative nonfiction podcast the show where I speak to badass people about the craft of telling true stories with apologies I'm Brendan O'Mara Ariel Curry is a senior editor of nonfiction at source books and the co-host of the hungry authors podcast with surprise surprise Liz Morrow who is kind of a Swiss army knife of writer knowledge as a ghost writer and editor, a proposal writer.
Meet the Authors: Ariel Curry and Liz Morrow
00:01:10
Speaker
you know Ariel is at Ariel K. Curry on Instagram. Liz is at Liz underscore Moro on Instagram. And you can also follow Hungry Authors at
00:01:20
Speaker
hungry authors on Instagram. You can learn more about Liz at wellwrittenco.com and Arielle's a newsletter called Notes from the Editor on Substack. Links to all of this shit will be on the show notes page at brenthedomera.com. hey So this way you don't have to scribble all this shit down and remember it in that big nerdy brain of yours. How are you?
00:01:44
Speaker
You're doing the dishes, you're walking the dog, staring blankly into the past, wondering why you said that thing 14 years ago. I see you. I feel like shit. I'm on the other end of the flu. um Yeah, like the other side of it. The downhill skiing part where ah things that don't hurt as much, but yeah the nose is running. I'm i' constantly stuffy. It's the cost of doing business with seeing Metallica being face to face with hundreds of people, mouths and armpits aboard the Link in Seattle. Like I said, I'm on the other side of it, but it's still a bumpy road, which means I'm all stuffed up, the nose is like a faucet, and I have cough-induced headaches. Totally worth it. Ariel and Liz reached out to me several months ago because it was all part of their plan, man.
Strategic Book Planning
00:02:36
Speaker
And I say that because ah for this for this book Podcasts were a big part of their planning around the book which gets to the bigger themes the book tackles Which is primarily this a well-selling book does not happen by accident. They walk you through the fire, man ah you You still have to walk atop the coals and burn the shit out of your feet, but they're holding your hand, letting you know what's what. And they help you flesh out, you know, your big idea. Organize your thinking in a swage, or a swage, a swage. Who cares? Your anxiety around platform building and the thinking around that. Spoiler alert, your social media following isn't as important as you thought.
00:03:15
Speaker
Okay? I'm going to put your mind to these with that. It's a scam. You know, we're just sharecroppers tilling the land for them for free, but don't get me going. Don't get me raging against the algorithm, which you can sign up for at BrendanOmero.com. Hey, I'm thrilled to share this conversation with you as you're going to get a lot out of it.
00:03:35
Speaker
Even some hard truths that sometimes writing a book doesn't mean it will get published. I mean, you have different ways to find publishing, be it hybrid or traditional, self-published. It's up to you. It's all part of the plan.
Freelancing and Collaboration Journey
00:03:51
Speaker
But the work wasn't wasted, let's say, if the thing doesn't get published. It was merely practice. So before I sneeze into my microphone and gunk up my aisle, whatever the fuck this thing is, PR40, let's start with Liz and how she and Ariel partnered up. Riff.
00:04:21
Speaker
Ariel, I feel like we're an old married couple at this point, so I always want to be like, you want to tell it or should I? I know. Right. So true. Why don't you go ahead, Liz? I like your version. Okay. It all started about three years ago. So yeah, around three years ago, a little over three years ago, I was getting ready to go completely freelance. um I'd been working with a traditional, a good friend mentor of mine who's a traditionally published author. And um I was about to have my daughter, so that just was a good time for me to go out on my own and start ah freelance writing, start my own business. And Ariel is doing something similar. She had been working at a traditional publisher for close to 10 years and was also going out on her own
00:05:13
Speaker
in the wide, wide world of freelancing as an editor. And um we connected just through you know the internet. She'd just done some contract stuff for the agency I'd kind of worked with. And um I started following her on Instagram, found out she was going freelance as well, and basically just reached out on like Voxer or something and was like, hey, I'm going freelance too. Do you want to be freelance friends? Because like I had nobody in my, I didn't know anyone in my life um who did who did that you know no none of my like real life friends had were writers or owned their own business and you know i just didn't have anybody talk to about pricing and contracts and how to find clients and you know how do i make connections and so ariel and i started bonding over that and um formed a little mastermind together we ended up inviting two of our other new um freelance friends that we kind of made along the way so we were um meeting pretty regularly talk about our business and
00:06:13
Speaker
everything that was going on and then it came out through our mutual friend Kent that we both um had been thinking about writing this book basically about how to write a book. We both work in nonfiction and I had both separately mentioned to our good friend Kent that we wanted to write this book and then eventually Kent went like, y'all should talk to each other. You both told me that you want to write this book. It sounds like the same book.
00:06:36
Speaker
So then, um, so we
Redefining Success in Publishing
00:06:37
Speaker
did. So we started talking about the book. We thought it would be super fun to write together. We help people write nonfiction books and love it, but we can't help everybody obviously. Um, and we wanted to help more people at scale and felt like we had some opinions and some expertise that weren't being talked about quite frankly, as much as we Wished that it was and so we decided to write a book on it our original plan was actually to just hybrid publish because we wanted it out we wanted it quick we wanted a lot of control over it and after we mapped out the whole thing and we're about to start ariel was like you know we write book proposals for a living and work in traditional publishing why don't we just shoot our shot and see if we can't sell it.
00:07:16
Speaker
and get an agent. And so we were like, I was like, OK, let's try. And a few months later, we did got an agent. We ended up did and we did end up finding a publisher who wanted it. And, you know, I guess the rest is history. And then then we went and did it. But that's sort of the backstory of our connection and how the book came to be.
00:07:35
Speaker
When you when you're talking about or you're looking to address things that people weren't talking about when it comes to writing nonfiction books and maybe Ariel you can run with this is you know what were some of those some of those things that people weren't talking about that you felt like you you know your book would fill that hole in the shelf.
00:07:54
Speaker
The biggest thing that we noticed was just this pervasive negativity throughout the whole industry, especially when it comes to traditional publishing. I mean, the narrative around getting traditionally published is so discouraging.
00:08:11
Speaker
And you know to some extent, we get it. It is not easy. You do have to deal with a lot of rejection. We certainly dealt with a lot of rejection in our own path. But we also saw lots of shining examples of authors who had little to no social media platform.
00:08:28
Speaker
and who were still being published by reputable, amazing, even big five publishers. And we were like, okay, clearly there is a trick to this. i Clearly there is something that allows some authors to get the book deals that everyone dreams about getting.
00:08:47
Speaker
to Ariel's point I can attest to this I have very little by way of social media following My newsletter audience is modest in size. I have a few thousand podcast subscribers Thank you for that and but it is by no means what you would call a robust platform tally but by extension of having spoken with more than 400 people on the podcast I have a lot of I have a big network through which to draw from. And I suspect that that is what has made me, at least, mildly attractive. So i'm all this is to say, like Ariel is saying, is that platform is so much more than social media metrics. And I hope that's the big takeaway here.
00:09:30
Speaker
And if we could kind of crack that code and at least give people, you know, some ways to improve their, their writing, their ideas, their pitches so that they could be set up for greater success, even regardless of how they end up publishing. That's what we really wanted to offer. to our authors um and to to any of our readers because we just saw that time and time again, people that you on paper didn't look like you know they didn't have 100,000 followers on Instagram, they didn't have you know millions of followers on Twitter, they didn't have giant sub-stack newsletters, they were still getting great books book
The Hungry Author's Mindset and Platform
00:10:10
Speaker
deals.
00:10:10
Speaker
and creating great books with great publishers and we were like alright there is a path to this and we want to offer that hope and optimism to people and we really saw that the secret is what we call the hungry author's mindset which is the gumption to go for it and the willingness to work hard and refine your ideas to you know put everything you have in into coming up with the absolute best plan for success for your book. And what might surprise you some people is that that doesn't always include traditional publishing. And we talk about that too, but sometimes the best path might actually be self publishing and we guide people through, you know, how to make that decision. But ultimately we wanted people to think smarter about their writing and publishing journey. Yeah, early in the book you cite an author, um her name's Brittany, who doesn't didn't have like a particularly grand ah platform that we would but typically identify. ah and And yet she was able to really carve out a path for her book, which became, you know, very, very successful and really glommed on to the readers she was looking to serve. Using her as a case study, what was so particular about her that were? Well, a number of things. First of all, I was a little bit hesitant to take her on. She was one of my first clients that I helped alone, like outside of my mentor and the agency I'd been working with. And At that agency, most of my clients, our collective clients, have been pretty platformed individuals. They had decent-sized audiences or a multi-million dollar business. They didn't have a ton of trouble getting a book deal, had what most publishers look for on paper. right So I had a lot of experience writing those books and you know pitching and positioning them, but they had a lot of the pieces there.
00:12:05
Speaker
And then Brittany came to me and she was amazing and passionate and motivated and had a good idea, but she didn't. She had a small audience, like you mentioned, and I just wasn't sure if what I knew would be as helpful to her as it was to, you know, some of these bigger platform people.
00:12:24
Speaker
So, but I, you know, I was really liked her and wanted to help her out. So we worked on the proposal together. And the main thing that she did really, really well was take feedback. She didn't compromise her vision, but as we really um honed in on her big idea, you know, it started out a little bit nebulous. She wanted to help young girls struggling with their identity okay that's great but that's not really sharp enough what's you know we had to figure out what's her particular take her particular angle what is what are some of those really deep down problems that she is going to solve for her audience so we researched that we researched comps We did agent research. We revised and revised that proposal. She wrote the chapters. I edit them. We went back and forth and we just put a lot of effort into that proposal and highlighted all of the things, all of Britney's strength. So we did that. I was still feeling a little bit nervous about it because I was just like, Oh my gosh, I just, I feel like it's just going to break. break her heart if she doesn't get an agent and get this book traditionally published like she really wants to. And then within a few months, um she did, she had an agent, she had a book deal, she's working on her second now. Because I know Britney now better, I know that even if that hadn't happened, that book would still exist and she would have made it happen. She would have self published it, hybrid published it. She was really not going to stop at anything, which is, I mean, she was a true hungry author. That's why she opens the book because she was my first experience with that kind of person who is going to make it happen no matter what.
Practical Steps in Book Creation
00:13:56
Speaker
And I wanted to be a part of her journey.
00:13:58
Speaker
And then the cherry on top was that it just, it helped me and opened my eyes to the fact that like, Oh my gosh, this stuff works. It really works. It works for anybody. You can learn this and you can create, you know, whatever kind of publishing path you want for yourself. You just have to be motivated, take feedback, you know, be willing to, to do the work. And so it was after I worked with Brittany. that I started to become really passionate about um spreading not only this idea of the hungry author's mindset that's so important, but the practical know-how that you know a lot of first-time authors need to get published.
00:14:35
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like where a lot of let's say novice writers who want to be published authors might get it might get things wrong is not having a good fundamental understanding of the the business of publishing and the publishing tapestry, if you will. It's like you wouldn't open a restaurant.
00:14:57
Speaker
without knowing all the little nooks and crannies of what goes into opening a restaurant and the business of it and the marketing of it and all that kind of stuff, menu, playing you know whatever it is. yeah But for some reason with writing, it I think people ah skip over a lot of those fundamental things, which ultimately just leads to a lot of like bitterness and frustration. and like is it Is that something you know you've run across?
00:15:22
Speaker
Absolutely. Especially, you know, having, having worked for a long time in traditional publishing. Um, I meet authors all the time who, you know, make assumptions about what it's going to be like. And honestly, they just don't know what they don't know. And that's okay. That makes perfect sense. Um, of course, you know, you're not going to know the ins and outs of this industry. A lot of the, you know, every industry has its own jargon and its own, you know, expectations and norms that everyone kind of operates by. And there's, it's like, there's this, you know, hidden.
00:15:52
Speaker
hidden set of rules or hidden etiquette and so we really wanted to help people kind of walk through that and know what to expect so that they can advocate for themselves and like Liz said we have seen the ultimate success with people who are willing to kind of roll with it to learn you have to you know approach this like you would learn anything you know i've never I've never raced in the Tour de France, but if I were going to, like, I would assume there's a whole lot of things that I need to learn about how the race works, about how, you know, professional cycling works. There's all kinds of things that you have to learn when you go into publishing too. And so that is definitely part of our, you know, our goal here with this book is to provide some of that practical know-how and, um, and help to set people's expectations and, and again, to help them advocate for themselves too, throughout the process.
00:16:41
Speaker
Yeah, and I like ah this the structure of the book, i I feel, is very approachable and practical, pragmatic, if you will. and you he So the four parts you know are lay the groundwork, map your book, write your draft, and pitch or publish. So how did you arrive at at that particular structure to break down the steps of the process in the most manageable way possible? Yeah, well, our favorite part that we pretty much started with, honestly, was mapping. That's the largest section and what we teach ah in our cohorts and
00:17:17
Speaker
the thing that Ariel and I first bonded over process-wise. So I think we kind of started there and maybe the book in its first iteration was more exclusively about mapping, about how to plan out a non-fiction book. That's another one of those pieces ah um in addition to the mindset that we felt like was really missing from the larger conversation about how to write nonfiction books. and People will talk about outlining, you have to outline your book, you know, but nobody really goes into much detail about what that means, especially when you compare it to fiction, it feels like there's so much more conversation about mapping out, you know, planning your plot when it comes to to writing fiction. But
00:18:02
Speaker
um Mapping out your book is equally as important in nonfiction and Ariel and I both in in our different ways before we we met each other had ah created some version of a similar process about how to ah map out a nonfiction book start to finish before you start writing to ensure that you're going to write a read ah good book. And so the book started pretty much with that. um And then I think ah we quickly realized that you know we needed some more foundational information up front about, ah you know, because you don't just jump right into mapping, you do have to decide your audience and genre and your big idea. And of course, mindset was always going to be at the very beginning, because that's always been the you know cornerstone of of our
00:18:44
Speaker
process and business. But then we knew that we also wanted to help our audience with the writing and publishing part. um There was a lot about publishing that we felt like was pretty integral to what we believed as hungry authors and how um how your book really comes to
Writing and Publishing Insights
00:19:03
Speaker
be. And so we wanted to make sure that we included um tips on on the actual writing and um and ended with publishing in the different paths that are available.
00:19:13
Speaker
the pros and cons and how they are all equally worthy, important and make you, you know, an author the exact same way. It's just a little bit um the path or you you end up in the same place as my point. So anyway, that's how those four four parts came to be. Yeah, I like in the introduction how you very succinctly say you good books don't happen by accident and I'd love for you guys just kind of pull on that thread a bit that it isn't just this sort of ethereal creative process that there is architecture or a wire frame behind it and yeah every good book does in fact have you know a game plan behind it.
00:19:54
Speaker
And we see that both, you know, kind of on the writing side and on the publishing side. That's why we felt so strongly that we have to talk about both of those things, because we know, as you know, I'm a former collaborator, just like Liz. Liz, of course, is a full time collaborator. She works with um with the big five publishers and incredible authors. And so we know from that experience that there is a lot of planning that goes into into nonfiction books, again, both on the writing side and on the publishing side. And from, ah you know, having worked in the publishing industry for a long time, I can tell you there is a massive amount of planning that happens ah behind the scenes to make the books that you see from those houses so successful. And so like kind of like you said earlier, Brendan, we really wanted to help authors to think about this from a business standpoint. And that's something that we think kind of makes our approach a little bit different from some of the other writing books that you might find out there. There's a lot of writing books that focus on kind of the heart and the soul of writing, and they're all about kind of the author's growth and confidence in their writing ability. And we absolutely want to encourage authors to grow in their confidence and their writing skills as well, and kind of the you know work on the craft of writing. But we felt like the business part was kind of the missing piece and that that mindset that we've seen that actually leads books to success.
00:21:16
Speaker
So we tend to focus a little bit more on marketability because that's what we've seen work. And we know that that's such an important component. Whereas a lot of other writing books focus on the writer, we really focus on the reader. And so, you know, you saw probably throughout our book,
00:21:37
Speaker
I feel like we just talk ad nauseam about transformation transformation transformation and the reason we do that is because we know that what makes books sell what makes any book successful and therefore what any publishers gonna want to publish is a book that readers love.
00:21:54
Speaker
and a book that's going to be shareable and a book that's going to just fly off the shelves and you do that by focusing so intentionally on your readers experience and that's true whether you're writing a prescriptive non-fiction book which of course is very explicitly about the reader's experience, but it's also true for creative nonfiction books, which are about the author's journey or about the journey of like you read writing about Steve Prefontaine. That would be a, you know, a creative nonfiction book. That's about a subject. It's not about your life. It's about his life, but still kind of the, you know, the principle underlying it is the same.
00:22:29
Speaker
that you know the intentionality that you bring to planning and designing a really shareable, marketable, compelling book has to be there from the beginning. And so, yeah, that's kind of why we say that it's a science as much as an art.
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah, and i ah you know we talked about it a little bit earlier about the the platform ah conundrum. and And I really enjoyed that particular part part of the book, too, because I think a lot of people get very discouraged and hung up on platform and solely see it as the purview of social media. So I'd love to hear you guys talk about rethinking ah ah the more holistic approach to platform and that it isn't just social media followers.
00:23:16
Speaker
Ariel, go ahead. You, Ariel wrote that part of the book. So go ahead. ah Okay. Yeah. That is definitely something that we feel very passionately about too. Um, first of all, uh, you know, we want people to know that platform is more than just social media. When people say platform, the first thing that they think about is social media numbers. And you know, you hear all over the industry, some people will say, Oh, you know, don't talk to me unless you've got a hundred thousand followers or You've got to have at least 10,000 subscribers to your email newsletter list or whatever their case may be. The truth is
00:23:52
Speaker
There is no number, first of all. We have to keep that in mind. There's no magic number. If you talk to you know different people in the industry, they're all gonna give you a different number. And platform is more than just social media. It encompasses your email newsletter list and your social media platform you know profiles and your website and the organic traffic that you get there. And it includes any organizations you're a part of, um the people that you know in your network. So that was something that we felt like you know our platform personally, ah our social media subscribers are are small still, but we are connected to a lot of other people who have much bigger platforms than we do. And we knew that we could leverage their platforms as well as our own. um So there's a lot of different things about platform and we wanted to help people kind of understand platform in a much more holistic way. The other pieces about that is you know platform expectations
00:24:46
Speaker
really differ by genre. So if you're a prescriptive nonfiction author, readers are going to expect that you come with a lot of credibility and that you are bringing a lot of experience to the table, maybe that you have certain credentials.
Tailoring Publishing Strategies
00:24:59
Speaker
Like if I want to read a book about, you know, skincare, I want to be learning about it from a dermatologist, not from someone who just was like, oh, I just made up this lotion and now I want to tell people about it, right? Depending on what you're writing about, the platform expectations might be higher or lower. If you're writing a memoir, you probably don't need a massive following um because you just need a great story to have a great memoir.
00:25:27
Speaker
And then it also depends on the publisher that you're working with. If you're working with a big five publisher, then they may very well have larger platform expectations. Again, there's no one number, but if you're working with a smaller independent press or within an an an academic press, then the platform expectations are much, much lower.
00:25:47
Speaker
Um, and so that might help an author decide what their publishing strategy is. Oh, I'm, I'm not going to go for big five, but I'm going to go for, you know, the smaller indies. I'm going to go for the more quirky publishers who take risks or, you know, whatever you can, you can design your publishing journey in a lot of different ways. And platform is definitely something that you can play around with and think differently about. Yeah. I think embedded in a lot of what you're saying, I just, what comes to mind is that.
00:26:17
Speaker
authors and especially those who are hungry have some ambition and a real desire to get their stories out there for and for whatever audience they choose is that there is ah more agency than maybe they give themselves credit for. like The industry isn't happening unto them. like You can actually bring your agency and bushwhack your own path through it and impart your own vision on the publishing industry instead of the other way around. Yeah, that's exactly right. thats At the heart of most things that we do is that message that you just have you have way more agency, you have way more power, choice, you know um creative control than a lot of people think that you know publishing is sort of this mysterious gate kept industry. And of course, there's some truth to that when it comes to
00:27:10
Speaker
traditional publishers, but in general, there's never been a better time to be a writer or to be, you know, specifically an author who wants to publish a book. And there are lots of different paths to that. um And even if, you know, you don't, it's your dream to be traditionally published and you query for, you know,
00:27:31
Speaker
however long you've sort of decided you want to, months, years. You don't get an agent but you still believe passionately in your book. You know you can self or hybrid publish. And by the way, there are tons of examples of authors getting traditional book tales after they've successfully self-published because you know somebody gets a hold of it or it sells pretty well and they try again or they try with another book. And you know there's just, there's a lot of different ways to get where you wanna go.
Long-term Writing Career Perspectives
00:28:01
Speaker
if if social media isn't your thing, you can build a platform a different kind of way. you know I don't want to overstate it, but it and so it really does feel like however you want to make it happen and however it feels good for you, if you're willing to to put in the work and um take feedback and have the right mindset, you can probably make it happen.
00:28:20
Speaker
And I think a great point to underscore that that you write about also is that, you know, hungry authors have more of a long term perspective, you know, they know that each book is just preparation for the next one. And I love that sentiment. ah And to share a personal anecdote, I remember my MFA program years and years ago, you know, I had really poured my guts into this particular book that I wrote, and I just couldn't get it across the finish line to get it and to get it published and it's you know in the drawer and and maybe it'll resurface someday probably won't but it took me a long time to be okay with that that that was just book practice you know that book just let me sort of light the it was the ember that let me sort of light the next one on fire and so the next one actually was published and then and then there's this other
00:29:12
Speaker
memoir that's also in the drawer but that kind of led to what ends up being my fourth book but it's gonna be only my second published one. yeah And it's so this idea of just sometimes you got to write books that don't get published and it's just practice for your next ones and I i like that idea that ah we can't get hung up on you know writing a book and like feeling like it has to be published as much as we want it to like it could just be practice.
00:29:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's lots of examples too of people we know who they write it. They do get traditionally published and in the very next book that they want to write that they're really passionate about it, nobody wants it. So they have to decide if they're going to write it anyway and just self-publish it or write it for themselves or You know, and then maybe they go off and they self publish or they hired publish a book and then they try again for traditional if that's what they want or they switch genres. It's like you said, there's there if you have that sort of just innate belief in yourself and the right mindset that this is a long game and you have what it takes, um there'll be no you know shortage of ideas. Every book is practice for the next one. And um this is like sort of a
00:30:25
Speaker
you've got a career mindset, not just like putting all of your baskets into the success of this one particular book that you're working with at the time or working on at the time.
Balancing Confidence with Realism
00:30:35
Speaker
You know, that's like a real surefire way to almost always end up disappointed.
00:30:40
Speaker
I mean this that that belief that's kind of like that we we walk through in chapter one kind of five core beliefs that make up the hungry author's mindset and that's the last one and I think that it's my favorite because to me that belief that you know, this book is practice for the next book, I will write more books. That belief is kind of a sign of your commitment to your craft, but also to your readers. And that's what we see, you know, again, in the authors that that succeed is that they truly believe
00:31:15
Speaker
that their book is needed out there. And that motivation keeps them going. And they they have so much empathy and so much love for their readers that they're like, I can't stop. Because if I stop, then no one's going to solve this problem for them. Then no one's going to reach them with the story that they desperately need. And so when you have that perspective, like you're unstoppable. You're absolutely unstoppable. In conversations you have with people or even yeah going going forward and even clients you've had, it to what extent do you have to you know have that confidence and that unwavering belief in yourself? But there also comes a point of just reality. Sometimes the thing that you're so invested in, maybe it just isn't going to find the home that you hope it's going to find. And you have to have that tough conversation that
00:32:07
Speaker
maybe Maybe for this one, it's just not going to happen. like how How have you navigated those tough conversations? Well, it might not happen how you are originally envisioning it, right? Like it might not happen through a traditional publisher and that could be for so many different reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with you. It might also happen for reasons that do have to do with you. You know, if publishers for whatever reason feel like, you know, a big platform is absolutely a requirement, then then there you go. um Or if they feel like, you know what, the the writing's really not there, then that to me is a sign that
00:32:41
Speaker
You have to be willing to do the work and that kind of goes back to another you know core belief in the mindset is you you have to be willing to do the work and to change your plans if need be so if you are like this book is truly as Good as it possibly can be and I there is nothing on earth that I could do to improve it and and still no one wants it you know in its current existence, then you do have to kind of take matters into your own hands. Because again, if you have that belief that the world needs this book, I i do think you have kind of, and not an obligation, but like you you have a strong ah reason to get it out there in another way. And I don't think
00:33:27
Speaker
that authors are doing themselves ah you know so a favor or or service if they view traditional publishing as the only way that they can get the word out there. The reality is that books sell very, very well no matter how
Understanding and Engaging the Audience
00:33:41
Speaker
you publish. A self-published book can take off and do incredibly well um just as much as a traditionally published book can.
00:33:49
Speaker
Getting back to something you said earlier about how you really framed this book around yeah basically serving the reader and authors, I think, will be like, you know, I have this story to tell. I'm just going to tell it and then I'll get and then I'll get frustrated because like doesnt it Well, maybe it finds a home, but it doesn't find the right audience and' because they're, as Seth Godin might say, like, if you write for everybody, you're writing for nobody.
00:34:12
Speaker
And so by choosing the people you seek to serve, you will have ah probably a more sort of nourishing experience. So how can writers try to target ah the right audience to then to aim their talent at?
00:34:30
Speaker
That's a good question. So when we think about audience, we think about demographics and psychographics. So demographics are often what come to mind first. A lot of people talk about their audience in terms of men, women, age ranges, jobs, locations, maybe, you know, tax brackets, economic um situations, occupations, and that's helpful. It's not necessarily bad, but what really um endears you to readers and helps you build an audience, if you're looking to do that in you know whatever way makes sense for you, is understanding the deeper problems that you solve for that audience. Because maybe you know you solve a problem, you
00:35:16
Speaker
help people write non-fiction books. That is a much more helpful um understanding that you have of your audience than just knowing if they're men or women. When we talk about getting clear about who you help, it comes down to understanding the problem that you solve for them. Or in certain cases um of different kinds of non-fiction books or memoirs, the you know transformation that you are promising them Sometimes it's not necessarily about a pain point, but a kind of ah pleasure that you're offering them. um But it comes down to understanding what they're looking for from you, what you're specifically helping them with. What do they stay up late and late at night worrying about or Googling? you know What are these deeper things about them that you're tapping into that you're helping them
00:36:07
Speaker
um achieve you know throughout the transformation in the course of your book. That's what really helps you write a book that you know has a long tail of sales, finds its audience, and by the way, that's what um agents and
Measuring Success and Impact
00:36:21
Speaker
publishers are looking for. They don't care nearly as much that you know like where your audience members live as they do, that you deeply understand what they're looking for from you, and you can demonstrate that you offer them that.
00:36:32
Speaker
Yeah, and there's also the – I feel like a lot of people, maybe I'm projecting, but they they feel like you know writing this book or or writing a book is going to be this thing that like sort of completes them, fills this hole inside them that in their life is going to forever change. And the fact of the matter is like when it publishes, you know you've got your – your little window where the flint is, the where the flame is brightest. But you know these things, they fade far quicker in relation in relationship to all the work that went into it. And so you have to really have much more journey-focused idea versus that results outcome. ah yeah So just in your conversations with people and managing people's expectations, and and how do you talk to people about
00:37:17
Speaker
Yeah, managing the expectations of you know when ah when a book is out that it really, yeah, maybe it'll catch fire and kind of change your life in that way. But it's really more about and just continually being you know ah of use to people, of to readers. And yeah your life might not fundamentally change because your book got published.
00:37:35
Speaker
Yeah, it's so true. We are experiencing that ourselves right now. you know our Our book is finally out. This thing that we've been thinking about and dreaming about and planning for and you know putting so much work into is finally out in the world. And you know what? Every day I get up and I drink my coffee and I do my routine and and I go to work and It has not like rocked my life in the way that a lot of authors um might expect or hope you know that a book does. But again, I think that goes back to you know your commitment to being and an author and having the life of an author, not just to having had a book published. So you know when I'm working with
00:38:22
Speaker
authors um when I was coaching authors one-on-one, I would have a conversation with them about like, okay, this book, you know let's we we go through all the planning, we map out your book together, but part of the book plan is also, and what are your future book ideas? Because when this book is done,
00:38:42
Speaker
there's got to be more. you know and there's Or how does this book help you know feature into or fit into kind of the ecosystem of everything that you're doing for your audience? So maybe maybe this is the only book that you write, but this book becomes part of you know an online course that you teach or you know something else that you're doing.
00:39:04
Speaker
And I think having that, again, that just broader, more holistic perspective on how this book is going to fit into your life is really helpful in grounding for authors. And it helps to kind of, again, see this as like, okay, this is one piece of my message. This is just the medium for my message. um But I have to get that message out there in a lot of ways. And I think too, something I've thought about a lot um recently is knowing what your goals are certainly after you've written the book and you're launching it but you know but even before as you're deciding what this book is and how you're going to publish it and you know like when you're deciding to publish like if your goal is that you write this the book exactly the way that you want to and you make no compromises because you have a very clear creative vision
00:39:55
Speaker
then hybrid or self-publishing might be a better path for you. And that is totally fine. As long as you understand your goal and your goal is to write it exactly this way and that means success for you. And it's totally, you know, it's great to have sales goals or goals to get on certain podcasts or whatever, but a lot of that is out of your control. And so having goals more around how many pitches you send and the effort that you're going to put into it and the amount of, you know, just how you feel about it personally is a lot. It's just a better way to set yourself up for success is understanding what your goals are and what success means to you in a way that you, um, you know, that you have some more control over it. So you can be really happy with how it came out and your efforts and then just let it be because so much of it is going to be out of your control.
00:40:53
Speaker
Yeah, that's so true. it's And especially if you don't define what success means to you, yeah then you just have this nefar not nefarious you have this very nebulous you know goal line out there. like The goal posts are always moving. you If you don't have a target, to it's like you're throwing darts at nothing and then it just feels empty and listless. So it's ah and maybe maybe for you guys, like how how have you framed that success mindset out with respect to this book in particular?
00:41:25
Speaker
Well, because I am secretly kind of a competitive person and I work in the industry, I i do have a number in mind, which I'm not sharing publicly, but i do I do want to see a certain number that would make me feel really good and make me feel like, you know, all of our hard work was, ah you know, it worked.
00:41:48
Speaker
and and the things that we did were were successful. But honestly, the biggest success that I have seen and and what feels the best so far has just been the reviews. And I know a lot of authors are like, oh no, don't read your reviews. I can't help it. I want to know what people are saying because I need the validation. So you know i just to be totally honest, um I want to hear what people are saying. and um not everyone loves our book, not everyone has rated it five stars, and that's okay. It's not for everyone. There are lots of other guides out there that might be a better fit for you, and we realize that our mindset um and the hungry author's mindset is debatable. That's part of what makes it a
00:42:31
Speaker
Good, big idea. So, you know, so we know that, but like this morning I was tagged in a post on sub stack and it was from somebody who I don't know. Personally, her name is Courtney. She read our book. She said she started listening to the podcast and she was just so inspired by the book that she wrote an entire sub stack posts. Like, I don't know, probably a thousand, 1500 words about how hungry authors wow changed her life and inspired her.
Reader Impact Stories
00:43:00
Speaker
to rethink how she was going to publish her book and inspired her to kind of go back to the drawing board, create a book map and like re rejuvenate her entire writing and publishing experience. And I reading this, I was like, Oh my gosh, like we did it. This is what we were trying to do. This is exactly what we were trying to do. And we, you know, having that evidence that we've inspired someone is, is what makes it worth it. Yeah. And like the, um,
00:43:29
Speaker
We met a lovely woman at a book signing who drove down from Asheville. She was like an hour away and She had come to you know hear us talk at the bookstore and get her book signed, but she came up to us and she's like, I've listened to every single podcast of yours. And then because of all that, I got a book deal and I'm just finishing up my first book. And literally the only money she had spent with us was buying our $25 book, everything else that she'd accomplished.
00:43:59
Speaker
She did it with all of our podcast episodes and all the free stuff that we put out there. And she had just silent, like quietly been listening and consuming and working away. And then she'd written a book proposal and gotten a book deal. And she didn't have to tell us that, but you know, she did. And we were so grateful. And it was just one of those things where I was like, Oh my gosh, like there's just, yeah, people out there who it's helping. And we're so grateful when we hear from them. Um, and that, you know, that makes it.
00:44:27
Speaker
and that makes it all worth it that makes it you know so rewarding even people in my real life like my son one of my son's friend's moms he's on his soccer team together she came up to me and she brought her book to our soccer practice and she was like It's like kind of embarrassing, not like, not embarrassing. I'm really proud of our book. Of course, it's just funny when like your professional life and your personal life kind of like collide in a way that you're not expecting. It's like, I've been saying it feels like when you're in high school and you like run into a teacher like in the grocery store and you're like, wait, what? This is like so out of context, you know? So I was like watching my
00:45:02
Speaker
friend, my, yeah my friend, but mostly my son's friend's mom, um, come up to me with her book. And she's like, six years ago, I started writing a book and then I just like completely died out. Cause I didn't know what I was doing. And then, you know, you posted that you'd written a book about how to do it. So I bought it. Will you sign it for me? And I was like, yes. Oh my gosh. Like, so she said she was going to pick up her book project again. And you know, it's stuff like that. It's like cheesy and cliche, but it really is like, that's, you know, that's why we do it.
Challenges and Personal Growth
00:45:31
Speaker
what's the hardest part for yeah either of you to kind of walk the walk of a lot of the advice that you share in the book? That's a good question. I think for me, yeah, that is a really good question. I think for me, this has been the hardest part, the the marketing and just like continuing to put ourselves out there because it's, and and to to me, what makes it hard is like, oh my gosh, it's it's never enough. Like there's,
00:46:00
Speaker
There's always more that we could be doing and that feels really overwhelming to me. like are we doing What if we choose something wrong? like we've had to you know Because we're limited human beings with limited time um as every author is. and so we We had to kind of pick a lane in our publishing or in our marketing efforts and say, like all right we're going to focus on podcasts. like That's going to be a big part of our strategy. and We're going to you know focus on social media, but we're not going to focus on um you know other things. We're not going to try to get on like TV and media, although if it happens, great. But there were certain things that we had to pick and choose about.
00:46:41
Speaker
And I am always kind of plagued by the like, well, what if we were wrong? What if we made the wrong bet? What if we decided to invest in, you know, this advertising versus that advertising, but actually that one would have been a lot more successful and like there's a, you could drive yourself crazy.
00:46:57
Speaker
thinking about all of those choices that authors have to make. And I think, you know, part of the hungry author's mindset that I'm trying to right now live out is like, make a plan, work the plan. That's when one of my former bosses and a very talented editor told me, she was like, make a plan, work the plan. And I'm like, okay, we made a plan, I just gotta work it now.
00:47:24
Speaker
and kind of have faith that it's gonna it's going to be as good as it possibly could be, rather than trying to spread myself so very thin, doing a thousand different things. so Make the plan, work the plan. Yeah, I like that. How about you, Liz? What's the hardest for you? Honestly, in terms of the advice that we give writers in the book, one of the the ah hardest things for me, and especially in this particular point in the publishing process or promotion process. But even in you know my other projects, my collaborative ghostwriting projects that I'm just in the thick of writing is continuing to believe that you know I can do this and I have what it takes and I have the expertise. so we did a podcast um pretty recently with our friend Meredith about ah the imposter syndrome. And you can probably ah relate to this too. ah Maybe like this, we, for so much of the process, ah this didn't really ah sneak up on me. i The writing felt pretty good and a lot of the editing felt great, but all of a sudden as it was out and we're having to talk about it and be a lot more visible and vocal than we usually have to be this sort of imposter syndrome,
00:48:40
Speaker
snuck up on me and I started to think like, there are so many other people who probably know more than me. I've written, you know, 20 something books, but other people have written 30 something books and, you know, like, that sort of who am I to be out here talking about this kind of mentality, um that I, you know, caution people against all the time about claiming your authority and you know, believing in yourself and your expertise and what you have to say in your your message. Yeah, ah and so it's really hard to um continue to believe that um day in and day out as you call yourself an expert and you step on, you know, whatever digital stage is available to you and
00:49:22
Speaker
have more eyes on you than you ever have before. Yeah, that's been that's been kind of a hard for me. It's but it's felt good. i've had I've been glad I've had other projects to be head down in and and keep sort of working on in my you know day job j job, I suppose, which is still as a writer, but working on other people's books to just sort of help me, ah just remind me ah that um that I'm good at this and I love this and this is what I was born to do and I have every right to to talk about it. and I don't know, I don't think, I haven't heard a ton of people um talk about the um the publishing, that part of the publishing process, how so often they're right there at the finish line, you start to go like, oh God. You know, like, did you feel any of that? Oh what yo yeah, yeah, I'm starting to feel the the the pangs of like, oh shit, this is gonna get real, they there's a good chance, ah
00:50:19
Speaker
it's gonna you know There are people that are are waiting for it to be bad ah and and and hopefully more are expecting it to be good. and i'm waiting for and With this particular project, I'm waiting for some sort of character assassination kind of things coming my way. and so there's There's that anxiety that's building up. and then ah Yeah, so yeah, it's ah yeah it's coming. I have to gird myself for an onslaught of ah of ah attention in a way that i that I'm not accustomed to and that I would rather avoid. Yeah.
00:50:55
Speaker
But ah but yeah, i well, guys, I want to be mindful of your time. This is great. You know, this is ah I feel like we could talk for like five more hours about so many of these wonderful threads that you guys have packed into this amazing book. So ah I just want to thank you guys so much for coming on the show and talking, talking shop and helping all the hungry authors out there. So just thanks for the time and thanks for the work.
00:51:18
Speaker
Yeah, thanks. Thank you for, you know, inviting us to do this and and giving us a a space to um to chat with you. um We've just really enjoyed getting to know you and your work better too. And we appreciate all you do for Hungry Authors.
00:51:36
Speaker
Yes, awesome. Ah, that was great. yeah Thanks to Ariel and Liz for coming on the show. We had some technical snafus during the recording where my computer dongle dislodged on three occasions, ah cutting out the recording, and it was just this whole to-do to get everything back up and running. And they were kind and gracious and patient. And at one point, when I cut out in my frustration at the third time this happened, I typed,
00:52:06
Speaker
Fuck me. Into the chat. And I'm only now realizing how inappropriate that was while talking to two professional women. Well, Liz laughed. I'm not so sure Ariel found it funny, and I'm sorry for that. I really am. I don't have a parting shot in me this week because I feel too shitty. So stay wild, see you in efforts. And if you can't do, interview safe.