Transcript
Speaker: ah Dustin, we're here to answer a big question today. Of course, we're always here to answer a big question on Answering Pilate. What is truth? That's what we do here. hey That's right. That's what we do. I love it.
Speaker: we should uh anyway do a commercial but um ah Why are so many... young people, and maybe some folk are unaware of this, but it's a trend. Why are so many young people, and and not just young people, but a lot of folk now...
Speaker: converting from Protestantism. to Roman Catholicism and because historically you you had a lot more folk. coming from the Catholic Church to the Protestant way of thinking, way of understanding salvation.
Speaker: We'll just... That's the baseline, right? But now you've got a lot of folk who are kind of going the other way. And then I would say there's some. And maybe just as many, maybe more. I you know i haven't even looked at the numbers. but ah Maybe they're not going all the way to Roman Catholicism. But they're certainly going.
Speaker: Beyond. ah what what we'll call typical evangelicalism. Some sort of a hybrid. Yeah, yeah. So maybe... ah Not just. what we call run -of -the -mill Presbyterianism. uh i don't know sometimes the federal vision sometimes they're going into anglicanism Is that a anglican Anglicanism? Yeah, sure. um Eastern Orthodoxy, Greek Orthodoxy. So they're they're just kind of moving in that direction.
Speaker: And so um I think that's an important question for us to ponder. And we're not the only ones who are. yeah You know. ah aware of this and talking about it. So we just thought we'd talk about that today. So we're going to put a few reasons on the table.
Speaker: Kick those around just a little bit. in our conversations. That sound all right? Sounds good. Yeah. I think, I mean, nothing like jumping right into it, even though. I haven't done that. but One of the things that, and again.
Speaker: You can't divorce any of this from our larger culture, what's happening in the larger culture. Historically, what's the cultural zeitgeist of the, you know? People are looking. Because you've got all this deconstruction and... yeah and you know,
Speaker: People saying, well, we've been lied to all this time and in many ways that... that Might be true. In other ways, it's certainly not. but But the propaganda coming out now. You got tons of propaganda. And again, I'm i'm going down a road I didn't even intend to, but I'm just saying.
Speaker: There are lots of reasons why. People are searching. But I think if you come down to where we are in evangelicalism, today, Protestantism in general.
Speaker: One of the things that folk... are doing is they're searching for ah historic roots. They're searching for... something that's more solid. in their minds and what they're experiencing right now. Right. I think that's a big part of it. so Just a continuity from the past to the present.
Speaker: So... If you think about that. yeah you know One of the things that they're saying is... Okay, well, you you've got the church from the first century.
Speaker: Up until the Reformation. And then you've got this complete shift in the Reformation. And the Reformation is where Protestantism essentially came from. Sure. And Baptists came out of that same time period. and Baptists in one sense are Protestant because they're not Catholic. In another sense, Baptists would say, well, we're not Protestant because we never were part of the Roman Catholic Church. Separatists. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But nevertheless, they would say, you know, it's almost like we had the Reformation and...
Speaker: You know, here we are. It just came out of nowhere. Well, we'll certainly. I think that's misunderstanding history. sure i don't I don't think that's true. And one of the things I would say is. that there certainly was a lot of continuity from the first century to the reformation with reference to many of the things that the Reformation...
Speaker: Mm. but You know, along those lines, gosh, how was I going to? It wasn't the Roman Catholic Church, though. Because what I'm saying is you had the rise of the Roman Catholic Church.
Speaker: You know, you've got the Constantinian change in the fourth century. And. the church and the... the state become For lack of a better word, we're not trying to be overly technical.
Speaker: but but kind of became... merged and in different ways that they weren't before. And over time... You've got the Roman Catholic Church just didn't start on ah on a day. You know, it came over time. And of course,
Speaker: The Roman Catholics themselves would say, well, we go to walk about all the way back to Peter. We would disagree with that. And and and again, that's not our purpose today that we might address that. and I'm still in the intro waiting into the surf to.
Speaker: i'm Diving right in. Yeah, I'm going to throw you a ball here in a minute. Yeah. You just hit it out of the park, and then we'll have a good broadcast. so Perfect. But... Heh heh. I'm just saying Even when the Roman Catholic Church was...
Speaker: Almost, you know, Eder Zenith, let's put it that way. You still had folk who were not part of the Roman Catholic Church. Sure. who certainly didn't believe what the Roman Catholics believed about salvation and about any number of things. And and you had it all over the world. so um It's not like... Modern day.
Speaker: evangelicalism is only ah is a product only of the Reformation. It goes back before the Reformation. So I think the reformation was certainly a good thing. I think it was necessary. I don't think it was perfect.
Speaker: None of us are perfect. And, you know, all of us. ah have our flaws and... All of us, you know, we're... You know, we're we're sinners, but we're saved by grace.
Speaker: But even when we're saved by grace, we're still imperfect. We haven't been completely sanctified and glorified yet. um Lots and lots of great things came out of the Reformation. In my estimation, there were some things they didn't go far enough, but that doesn't mean that I... appreciate everything about modern day evangelicalism either okay and so that's where we're going And we're we're more talking about.
Speaker: I'm just sort of setting that in historical context. Because we'll we'll reference back to that with some of these issues, but we're more talking about. The mindset of certain people. thinking that the Roman Catholic Church is what's been the faithful tried and true church since day one. We need to get back to that.
Speaker: The Reformation is almost an aberration. so to speak. So anyway, that that's what they're looking for, historical roots, historical continuity. And. One of the things that you'll hear people talk about is, well,
Speaker: Okay, well, you you got all these pastors in these evangelical churches. and they're doing their thing and you come and you hear the sermon and Got all these Bible studies and all that. And we go back to the Reformation, right? I'm just saying, but what about the early church fathers?
Speaker: So what they're wanting to do is go back to the early of church. So it's almost like, well, it's not almost like, it is like, it is. It's a fact. They've discovered. that, well... Okay, yes, there were there were Christians prior to the Reformation. That's a fact. And you got the early church fathers. Well, who are the early church fathers? Well, most of what they're talking about.
Speaker: are Christians who are writing in the second century, third century. I mean, you could go back to... Polycarp who would would have been Well, that'd be early 2nd century. because Now, he was a disciple of John the Apostle. Right.
Speaker: But, you know, he's writing in the early 100s. But we're not they're not even talking about Polycarp. They're talking about people like Irenaeus. Justin Martyr. yeah You know, on and on. We could go with Tertullian, Origen, all of the folk that we study about in in church history.
Speaker: And so... They're saying, let me give you an example. And you know this. I'm not giving it to you. I'm just giving it for the folk that are listening. They'll say, well, you know, a lot of the early church fathers, maybe most They practiced infant baptism, and most evangelicals today practice believer's baptism.
Speaker: So what about that? Why don't we get back to the practice of... Infant baptism. You understand what I'm saying? yeah yeah so they're looking for those roots and again i don't want to monopolize so you you jump in But one of the things I i would say as well.
Speaker: And you can answer this question for me. While we're... Every single, maybe if not every single, every single letter in the new testament with maybe one exception i don't know but i think for the most part.
Speaker: The letters of the New Testament, why were they written? They were written to churches. Yeah. to correct error yeah or to encourage in the midst of persecution yeah yeah yeah lots of reasons right yes encouragement in the midst of persecution But that's where I was going with that. Every one of them.
Speaker: you find, whether it's Peter, whether it's Paul, they're saying, now, let me, let me tell you about this. You're doing this wrong. It's not necessarily the language they use. Corinth was a particularly troubling church, right? The church of Corinth.
Speaker: Galatians, you know they had these Judaizers creeping in, preaching another gospel. Anyway, so... My point with that would be. Alright, if you've got these churches...
Speaker: in the first century. Right on my churches, founded by the apostles. Churches founded by the apostle Paul himself. And he goes off and... plants other churches. He comes back to check on the previous church or he sends Timothy or he sends Titus or somebody.
Speaker: And then you see him write, and I'll give you an example. Talking about Corinthians, he says, I've heard that. blah blah blah blah blah And. I've heard it so much. I believe it. you know like I can't believe you're doing this. Or or to Galatia, you know, it's been reported to me.
Speaker: right so my point is Would it not stand to reason that... If... in the churches that were planted by the apostles. that had been founded upon genuine apostolic authority and what do you mean by apostolic authority i mean The apostles themselves. Right.
Speaker: Who were given authority by Jesus himself. to be the church leaders. They were. Not. Theologians. Right. And that's part of the point I think you're getting at.
Speaker: is the the early church fathers. We're not theologians first. you know they learned about God and they learned from the scriptures that were given to them from these letters from the apostles.
Speaker: But. In. We're talking about in the first, second, third century. Really and truly, the church is still in its infancy. Yes. yeah the The church, as Jesus founded.
Speaker: is perfect. Mm -hmm. It's pure and it's beautiful and it will endure to the end, correct? Correct. We affirm that, the Catholic. Our Catholic friends would say the same thing. Sure. um But they're referring to the Roman Catholic Church in that sense.
Speaker: What we would say is... It's not referring to any. earthly denomination right that would call itself a church but the church as those who are in Christ, who believe in Christ.
Speaker: who follow what has been written about Christ by... Those apostles who have been given the authority of Christ who... Rude By the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, his words.
Speaker: that we may know him and know how to serve him. That church. that and comprised of people from all time. in all places, is pure and holy. But...
Speaker: the earthly representation of that is still filled with flawed human beings. yeah And so we're going to have... flawed theology, flawed beliefs, flawed practices from time to that are going to rise up. And again, even in its very early stages.
Speaker: That's why, you so like you said, so many of the epistles exist. is because there were flaws that needed to be addressed. And over the centuries, there continue to be flaws.
Speaker: And. Like we said, the Roman church has... Rose up. There was a power dynamic that was involved there. um And. because of the power dynamic. I think.
Speaker: The. people at large. accepted the authority of that power dynamic and so things that were taught. From Rome. were accepted as true and and what Christ wanted yeah without.
Speaker: really understanding or knowing. and for so many centuries just accepted without searching into it. But as you said, there were. there were Christians even at that time.
Speaker: That would question. and not agree and not follow. to the letter everything that rome would teach And so when we got to the Protestant Reformation. Again, that's not. kind of a seminal moment but you know it wasn't Just like you said, the Catholic Church didn't.
Speaker: Start in a moment. Neither did the Protestant Reformation. That's right. But it was, you know, that Lighting of the powder keg. Um, kind of a culmination of centuries of of questioning that's right whether or not what... men were teaching was lining up with what?
Speaker: God had taught us through his word. yeah and so yeah now we get to this point of the Protestant Reformation where... People are starting to stand up and say. Well, no, this is not what the Bible tells us. This is contrary to what the Bible tells us. and so But again, then...
Speaker: all these other denominations get born out of that. And so now we still have flaws. in every every single one of them that we're we're not going to claim that our denomination is without its flaws which and without.
Speaker: things that could be corrected. yeah theologically or practice -wise or otherwise. yeah But that's part of being humans. but Our goal is to continue to pursue the knowledge of Christ more and more so that we can see those flaws, those errors, and see how to fix them. um Rather than just...
Speaker: automatically accepting human teaching yeah that's exactly right Yeah. And so you hit on where I was. headed I think. You know two things real quick the early church fathers And you pointed this out.
Speaker: But I was connecting it to if you've got these churches founded by the apostles in the first century and they had error. Does it not stand to reason that... Second century, third century, fourth century. that there was an error creeping in there as well of course which is the point you made And.
Speaker: one side issue because And Roman Catholics, when they—and again, we're not criticizing. We're just trying to answer the question why so many people are going to the Roman Catholic Church. And in the conversation, we're going to— offer some opinion on that, obviously.
Speaker: But they talk about apostolic authority and apostolic succession. And essentially what they mean by that is not what we mean by. We don't use the term as apostolic succession.
Speaker: Now, there's some Baptists, like the landmark Baptists, they think Baptists go all the way back to John the Baptist, just like Catholics think that. They go all the way back to Peter. All the way back to Peter, right. I don't think there was a Baptist church that went all the way back to John the Baptist. I do think.
Speaker: You know, the term Baptist came out of a... 17th century england and and the church of england the separatist movement the baptists and the And the Presbyterians and the Puritans were all kind of. pushing back on the persecution there from the state.
Speaker: But before that, you had people who were called Anabaptists. Anabaptists just means re -baptizers. These were people that... practiced believers baptism as opposed to infant baptism right and they held a lot of, I mean, they they held a lot of things that we would not agree with.
Speaker: And you can't you can't lump them all into one group. there were There were lots and lots of groups, okay? But at the same time... The authority of Scripture, believers' baptism of believers' church. the These beliefs...
Speaker: Some of these beliefs, they certainly go all the way back to the first century. But that's not the same thing. Acknowledging that is not the same thing as saying John the Baptist founded the first Baptist church. We don't believe that. We don't believe that Peter is the first pope.
Speaker: I'm just drawing a parallel there. So when we talk about apostolic authority, we're talking about the, ah and you've mentioned it, but the authority that the apostles had by virtue of.
Speaker: Jesus. conferring it upon them, but also Paul tells us and and... over and over that. He's been given direct revelation from God. in terms of the epistles that that that have been inscripturated. And the church didn't make that decision, by the way. Catholic Church didn't decide what the canon is. Right.
Speaker: a lot of people think that's the case or athanasius he didn't decide what the canon is The church recognized, and by canon. What are the books that are scripture versus? All of those letters and all of that.
Speaker: material that was floating around, just like there's all kinds of stuff floating around today on the internet. which was the word of God and which wasn't. and ah Man, there's so much to talk about here. Sorry. But... the church the early church recognized Those epistles in those books of the Bible that we refer to.
Speaker: ah using that term. as as scripture and then other books were not. And so Then Athanasius just of affirm what the early church had already recognized as scripture from day one.
Speaker: Even Peter. just as a side issue. I'll give you two examples. Peter says, that Some of the, uh... Things that Paul writes are hard to understand.
Speaker: Um.
Speaker: he Well, he's making a point that... He says, And he says this as in the rest of the scriptures. He refers to what Paul writes as scripture. As scripture. Yeah. And then... um I don't even know what the other thing I was going to say is. It doesn't matter.
Speaker: But. The point I'm making is you you've always had people here and there. who've understood the way of salvation, But we're not looking at apostolic succession per se. but we do look at The question is, what is the source of our authority?
Speaker: And the Roman Catholic Church, of course, would say. Well, there's there's three sources of authority. There's the scriptures. And then there's the magisterium. which is basically... when the Pope sits ex cathedra When he makes his decrees ex cathedra, he's speaking as the vicar of Christ. And so. There are lots and lots of things over the centuries that different popes declared.
Speaker: that are now deemed to be on par with equal to And they are the word of God. They're not in the scriptures. So you've got papal decree. That would be a way of of saying it. so Papal decree, the scriptures, and then church tradition. And all of these things have equal authority.
Speaker: Well, where we're coming from is, well, no. The Bible doesn't teach. And notice where I went with that, the Bible. The Bible doesn't teach apostolic succession.
Speaker: that you have a series of of popes handed down. And that would be a whole other broadcast like. How do we know that there are no more apostles? That office is... No longer in existence today, but...
Speaker: we are We only have one source of authority. and that is the scriptures that is the word of god itself but again this is part of the pushback that a lot of young people are saying, and and and we'll get to this as a separate issue.
Speaker: but they're looking for... not only historical roots, but... When they say historical roots, not that the Roman Catholic Church or other but the Greek Orthodox Church, not that they're just old.
Speaker: But they've handed down things. you know, throughout the centuries. And again, I'm sorry I'm taking so long. But part of what I'm trying to argue is that. We too. Protestants.
Speaker: Baptist. evangelicals. What is an evangelical? what Technically. Somebody who believes. The gospel is ah grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. And that's a term that came out of the Reformation. We can talk about that.
Speaker: But nevertheless... I'm just trying to say there've been folk who. It's hard to talk about it. Forgive me But um we believe that that scriptures are authority, but we believe the same thing about the scriptures.
Speaker: in terms of salvation since day one. So there is... a faith once for all delivered to the saints that has been handed down. And like you said a moment ago, Okay, we've got all these denominations, so who's right? Are the Presbyterians right on baptism or the Baptists right on baptism? Right. Well, what about the Methodists? What about the Lutherans?
Speaker: Okay, you get that. Well, the Bible even says that you're going to have these debates. You're going to have schisms and factions. and And there's a purpose behind that so that those who are true might be approved and all the rest. But again, we live in a fallen world. But you can't just throw the baby out with the bathwater and say, okay, well.
Speaker: We've got all these papal decrees. And so that looks traditional. That looks. That looks authoritative. That looks weighty and meaty. And I can. dig myself in roots rather than this evangelical community church over here.
Speaker: with 3 ,000 members or 10 ,000 members. And I get that. And we're going to address that in just a minute. Yeah. If I'll ever be quiet. and So go ahead. i I think that's what they're searching for.
Speaker: Yeah. there yeah and I think to kind of go ahead and... Transitionist. yeah let's do that Um. I do think that a big part of this movement.
Speaker: is it's a reactionary to where the modern especially American, but it's worldwide too. Oh, yeah. Evangelical church. has drifted too.
Speaker: um And. I think we can all agree. When we think about a modern evangelical church, especially a megachurch type of gathering.
Speaker: We can all agree it it looks vastly different than what we... picture the early church gathering yes looking like. and In some ways, maybe that's not.
Speaker: necessarily wrong or bad because certain things change because
Speaker: Society changes because culture changes because. where people are and where they live changes, technology changes. We're not saying that everything has to look exactly like it did in the first century no and as as far as the form and the fashion. But...
Speaker: Like I said, we would all agree that there are certain things that... We would even say go beyond the pale. as it were. And I think a lot of people. It's gotten to the point to where it's easy for anyone to recognize.
Speaker: that there are some things that... Right. don't seem perhaps genuine. um or real. It seems more like a show. Yeah. And there's a pushback against that because I think there is.
Speaker: A longing for authenticity. That's definitely ah a buzzword that we hear a lot. with people, especially young people. um They don't want to be. sold a bill of goods they don't want to be lied to like we've talked about earlier yeah you know We find out more and more.
Speaker: institutions or people that we thought were supposed to be trustworthy have lied to us yeah you can become jaded in that that's right and so there is a pushback against that in the religious realm as well. And so...
Speaker: Part of the reaction to that for a lot of people is. to swing back towards what looks more traditional. yeah Yeah, if you're talking about, when and I think part of what you're talking about is...
Speaker: the the most extreme elements, like then the and the big mega churches that... that have this following beyond just their membership. I mean, they're on television, they're on the web or whatever.
Speaker: And boy. Some of the shenanigans that go on there and and just the unbiblical stuff. And then I'm not throwing rocks and. going to highlight too much there.
Speaker: But like you say, the inauthenticity. Yeah, authenticity, that's a big thing, especially with young people today. And we all want people to be authentic, but no, it's one of their things. they If they feel like you're fake, forget it. If they feel like you're sincere and genuine,
Speaker: Fine. And I get that, like you said. But yeah all these folk, it looks like... They're always begging for money. um they're They're doing the most outrageous thing they can do.
Speaker: Yeah, know we've all seen... Gosh, what did I see on on X the other day? Some church somewhere. They had like a... A Beyonce. Oh, yeah. What what was it? Some kind of. Yeah, this woman came out and she was singing Beyonce songs and dancing. and Yeah.
Speaker: To get them ready for worship. Yeah, to get them ready for worship. Yeah, yeah. It was like. Anyway. Yeah. Okay. Dial it back from that just a little. Yeah. Because I remember. Dial it back from Beyonce. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Got it. Right. No Beyonce. No Beyonce. Dancing around in worship. Okay. Getting the folk ready.
Speaker: But. um Just the the... the church growth movement. You don't hear as much about it now, but, I mean, it's still there, even if they don't talk about it like they used to. But it used to be the Saddleback, and you know, and and Willow Creek. and you know all that.
Speaker: And the whole... point of that church growth me there were a lot of things with it but it seemed like Just a... an entertainment style in worship in a lot of these churches. The big... the big productions even if it wasn't Beyonce, was still these big productions.
Speaker: And none of the entertainment, but it was sort of. Let's, uh... We got to dress differently. You know, the skinny jeans and the t -shirt so we can look cool and identify with culture.
Speaker: And we're going to. compromise on certain doctrines and downplay certain doctrines. We're not going to talk about hell and all that stuff. in order to Get people to come in the church.
Speaker: And would in other words. We'll try to make the church look like the world. And they would even say that. I mean, they were doing surveys. ah in their communities, what would you like to see in church? What do you not like in church? And then they would do church.
Speaker: in a way. that they felt like would appeal to those who weren't going to church. And that's where you had. unchurched Harry and Mary. You had these prototypes or... prototype is probably not the right word, but you had these.
Speaker: I don't know what you'd call them. But anyway. This is the... Yeah, the prototypical person. Yeah, we're trying to reach. Here's unchurched Harry. Here's unchurched Mary. Let's do this. Anyway, I don't wanna get into all that.
Speaker: And I think you've had so much of that and so many scandals to your point. Yeah. People are just sick of it. And it isn't it's not just young people, but it but it is those young people especially.
Speaker: We talk about Gen Z a lot because they're they're looking for meaning. Yeah. Because we, I mean, we've talked about that too. I mean, what is life all about? and they're They're searching for meaning.
Speaker: And they're just not finding it in. In the typical mega evangelical entertainment church, kind of like. They've described it. you've You've heard this before, I'm sure. It's like, I would go to church, and it's like a rock concert and a TED Talk. Yeah. So they're pushing back against that. Right, yeah. um I was going to...
Speaker: You said the rock concert. I was going to say too. Which, again, this is something we could do a whole other episode on. But. um in the worship music that's used in church. We've seen how that has changed over the years as well.
Speaker: And a lot of it was for the same motivations. It was to make it. more attractive to the world. Yeah. More alike. The pop. popular music. um that that you could hear on the radio, the quote unquote secular music.
Speaker: And we just start trying to make. Songs that sound similar to that, but put Christian lyrics to it. And again, I'm not saying that worship is a certain style or certain sound.
Speaker: Um, But... uh we we both uh From time to time, we'll watch ah a Elisa Childers. Apologist and she does a lot of good work but she was actually a former recording artist with a Christian label.
Speaker: but with a Christian group. and she talks about that because you talked about unchurched harry and mary or whatever it was They used to have this fictitious character that they would... Talk about.
Speaker: And. It was, that's who the radio stations were marketing towards. And that's who. the record labels were wanting to market towards. got There's a certain demographic group. It's the soccer mom and all of these things that they wanted.
Speaker: That's the music that would get. produced and get marketed. is the stuff that that they felt like. this certain demographic wanted. right And so then everything just starts churning out. and Again, now we have the CCM industry. It turned into an industry. Yep.
Speaker: um And. that I think there's... That's another element that... people are pushing back against. Which is interesting because when...
Speaker: You know, in the 70s when all these rockers were getting saved and didn't know how to do anything else but play rock and roll and sing about Jesus. There was pushback against that music because it sounded too much like the world. Now it seems like there's pushback.
Speaker: swinging in the other direction. against the popular sounding music because they're realizing that a lot of it is pretty vapid. and there's no substance there and it's and it's just part of a machine that's being marketed.
Speaker: uh to consumers yeah uh rather than being genuine worship so there's a lot of Swing back towards more traditional. Worship. yeah Music, worship styles.
Speaker: And again. That's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. Right. but Yeah, it's it's all part of that. rejection of being viewed as a consumer.
Speaker: yeah Yeah. And so. I feel like two. This movement that we're talking about today. We could see a lot of it start to be borne out in the evangelical church in the 90s, early 2000s, the emergent church. Oh, yeah. Movement. um Because there was a heavy leaning towards.
Speaker: You know they would have the candles. and they would do liturgy and all of these things. in it but still in a more comfortable laid -back setting but they would still bring in these what they would call sacred elements right because there were people that were longing for Something that...
Speaker: felt more spiritual, felt like it had more substance to it. Um, But again... Inc. still kind of got melded into this machine. And so now...
Speaker: I think it's progressed to the next step to where. Okay, people are finding they're not. getting this spiritual depth that they've feel like they were looking for in the evangelical church. So now we're going to start looking elsewhere. Yeah, yeah. there Yeah, and and to your point, they're looking for A little more reverence, a little more maybe transcendence would be another way to put what you're saying.
Speaker: And... um yeah Again, I... On the one hand, I get that. yeah and And I'm okay with that. Because God's holy. and we want to be reverent and all that.
Speaker: And I'm not into, we're not into the entertainment dynamic. um and We're not into fluff. we we we We try to. Honor the Lord in the in the way we do our worship. Our songs are... God centered, not man centered. And you do a great job, by the way. Praise God.
Speaker: And... Excuse me, but... Um... All right. One of the things that I would say. And again, I'm not. when up I am pushing back on.
Speaker: the move toward Roman Catholicism and pushing back on the move toward Eastern Orthodoxy and Anglicanism and all that. I am pushing back on that, but I'm not advocating. ah What they're... what they're pushing against per se, because I'm pushing against the same thing. And and I think that's been clear from our conversation thus far.
Speaker: We don't. think it's good to have a rock concert and a ted talk that's not what is supposed to be. But I would. And particularly when you get into the issue of sacramentalism, which is coming up. Hopefully we'll get there. But I would ask the question, okay, well, do you really believe?
Speaker: that in the first century church, That. They had ah a particular liturgy. and by Listen, we all have a liturgy. We have a liturgy, right? we it's It's different than maybe the high church Methodists or the high church Lutherans or even the high church Presbyterians.
Speaker: but it's not that different, but you know, we'll have a call to worship. whether it's a song or whether it's a scripture reading or a prayer, you got a call to worship, you got... it congregational singing.
Speaker: You've got the reading of Scripture. We have the reading of Scripture. We have the preaching of the Word. You have the Lord's Supper. We don't do that every week. That's another question of debate. Should you do that every week, et cetera?
Speaker: and And that's okay. But listen, even that form, just to be honest with you. Historically speaking that It's not exactly the way the Catholics do mass. No.
Speaker: But it certainly came out of that Roman Catholic Church and the Reformers. Going back to the Reformation. They reformed a lot. But there were a lot of things they didn't reform.
Speaker: And, um boy, we we could talk about. their view of the the what we call the Lord's Supper, the Catholics call it the Mass. The Catholics have transubstantiation. Well, the Lutherans have consubstantiation. Well, no, the Calvinists have in the Presbyterians, you know, the spiritual presence of Christ. And we could distinguish between all those. but Again, maybe that's why I say maybe we should have another talk on that. Whereas the Zwingli out of the Reformation and Baptists today. We see the Lord's Supper.
Speaker: is only a memorial you know we're we're just uh we're celebrating and remembering what Christ has done for us by Okay. But even... Even the way we do the Lord's Supper, it's in the context of a formal worship service. We pass the little cups.
Speaker: We have the little pieces of bread. And I'm not throwing off on that, but I'm saying and we're real solemn. and Examine your hearts. And of course, I always try to say it's a feast and fellowship and all. All this stuff, believers.
Speaker: Fence the table. but But that's what it is. But here's my question. It's twofold. one. Is that how they did it in the in the apostolic church? It's really not. Yeah, and...
Speaker: Just... on the larger context of this issue. which you mentioned at the offset. when we've first started the conversation. is understanding your history, yeah which a lot of a lot of people don't.
Speaker: understand. their full church history. Well enough. So. when they're longing for these more catholic Practices. that have a certain appearance or, you know.
Speaker: look a certain way. they're recognizing, well, that's that's... older and more traditional than what I see. In your average church, yeah average evangelical church. today but that's still was something that was new and different in its time.
Speaker: than, as you said, what the first century... That's right. apostolic church would have looked like that's right we we have to remember for one thing many of the the first century churches.
Speaker: Would not have. None of them would have had big, beautiful cathedrals. No. I've i've been to Rome. and in other parts of Italy and seen. I mean, they're... beautiful yeah they're they're masterpieces of Yeah. of construction.
Speaker: and design that would not have been the place in first century in fact in most of the cases they didn't want to be found yeah they were in hiding Because Rome, ironically enough.
Speaker: was going to break in and slaughter them. Or the Jews themselves who had rejected Christ were going to hunt them down and slaughter them. And so... There wasn't an ornateness to a lot of that.
Speaker: A lot of that may call back to what we see in the Old Testament with the temple and all of that. But the first century church didn't look like that. No. Because, again, the dynamic of the world at the time. that the The church was not ruling.
Speaker: in the first century no they didn't have power no uh they were hiding from power yeah in a lot of ways But... the To get back to your question, um you know the the Lord's Supper, as we call it.
Speaker: um It was part of a meal. Yeah. Which we actually have done that we had on occasion. We've actually had ah a mule. We've actually had a couple of times where We set our meeting space up with tables. Yeah. And everyone's just sitting around tables. and We still sing and we still read the word and we still do all that.
Speaker: But we had a meal and we would have the Lord's Supper. We still would have. the juice of the wine and the bread and all of that and observe it but yeah it was it wasn't necessarily this.
Speaker: Again, to use this word, the sacrament. this Right. Solemn kind of ceremony. It was part of a fellowship meal that was taking place. but it was just used as a reminder of this is why our fellowship exists. This is why we're gathered together, because of Christ and because of his body and blood. yeah Yeah. Excuse me. That's exactly right. And I think too.
Speaker: You know, the early church, to go back to what you were saying earlier. There were house churches in that New Testament church. Now, some people had to meet in caves because of persecution and all that. But, you know, these letters were written to house churches. yep So let's just say, what did the church of Corinth look like?
Speaker: Well, we know from historical records that we know from the New Testament, you'd have a... ah a number of houses. People would meet in different homes. And then they would also have From time to time, and again, my memory fails me. I don't know if it was once a month or once a quarter or whether it was regular or not.
Speaker: But all these house churches in Corinth, they would gather together at a central location just for a special purpose. And of course, they'd have the... The Lord's Supper there. But it was in the context of this fellowship meal. And presumably you had these fellowship meals in the house churches as well. yeah And we can debate whether or not it has to be every week or ah every four weeks or whatever. but um That's another issue.
Speaker: But not only did you have house churches. and didn't have these big... cathedrals or what we have, big church buildings, like you said. I think there was a cultural reason, historical reason that you mentioned.
Speaker: I also think there's a ah theological slash providential reason. Sure. Because the temple... was the type in the shadow. And the the people of God itself are the temple now, not a structure.
Speaker: And so I think the house churches in that first century. were another way that God in his providence Made a very visual point the temples destroyed and now you're meeting in houses. Yeah And, of course, the the basilicas.
Speaker: which means kingdom. In the cathedrals, right, they rose in that Roman Catholic. with the centralization of power. So it wasn't just about... oh, it's a convenient way to worship. Let's all gather in the same spot. It was because in their theology, the theology that developed You got to come to the church to get salvation. You got to come to the priest to get salvation. and and
Speaker: you know absolution from sin. And that's not what the early church taught. It's not what the the the apostles taught. The apostles taught that... Salvation. Again, I'm going to borrow a Reformation phrase, but...
Speaker: It's reflective of what what the scriptures teach. Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Of course, they push back. Faith Without Works is dead. Yes. But you're not safe. You're not justified. You're not put in the right.
Speaker: with God by works. You're put in the right with God. As the shed blood of Christ is applied to your... Heart, by the Spirit, you're born again. You believe the gospel, you repent, you believe the gospel, and then good works follow as a result. As evidence. As evidence. So you're still saved by faith alone. You're not saved by faith plus works. Works follow.
Speaker: But anyway, I don't know where I was going with that other than. Oh, yeah, the centralization of power. And so, okay. Here's here's another thing I want to say. I'm sorry. then it would have Keep going. I think two things can be true. I always say this. Two things can be true at the same time. And in this case.
Speaker: I'm going to be honest and say I think I'm right on this. I'm not dogmatic on this. Okay. okay Now, some things I'm just dogmatic on, two things being true. right Okay. Bye. I think.
Speaker: certainly house churches. with elders. Maybe house churches in a city and then you gather together if if you got a house. planning church. a house church network.
Speaker: Certainly think that's legit. mean House churches even... independent. And it's legit because you see it in the New Testament. And of course, I know all the the folk who are going to the Catholics in the Eastern Republic say, where's the... Where's the authority there? Where's the where's where's the.
Speaker: How do you keep them in line? Well, that's I think a network would be a good thing. but Not like the Presbyterians said, we get into all this stuff, right? this is This is why these questions are on the table. Sure. We can have another.
Speaker: episode on that. But I also think this is where I'm coming. A -A -A - modern church building. I think it's okay to do that.
Speaker: i don't think that's wrong right and certainly we have These spread out everywhere and they don't have to be these massive cathedrals. And we don't say, okay, here's the parish and everybody in this parish has to come to this church.
Speaker: like the Catholics did, and like the Lutherans and the... And the Calvinists did back in the Reformation. That was their ecclesiology. Everybody in this given geographical area. By the way, can I do a side issue?
Speaker: Calvin and Luther. Early. They actually came to believe in a believer's church, not covenant theology as Presbyterians embrace it today. A believer's church. Yeah. and or Lutheran theology.
Speaker: and believers' baptism, but they were like, wait wait a minute. If we have a believer's church, how do we get all these people? in our geographic area into the church.
Speaker: Okay, we got to do it through baptism. Okay, now we got to do infant baptism because how do you become a member of the church? It's through baptism. And so... Their ecclesiology overrode some things that they had come to, and they jumped back over the fence, as it were.
Speaker: and embraced. Infant baptism. I'm just... yeah Making that they were reformers. Yeah. Right. They were trying to. reform yes the Catholic Church. They they were they were Catholics. yeah and So...
Speaker: Again, we we talked about there there was a difference between the Anabaptists. and Calvin and Luther and and the reformers. In that. The Baptists said, no, the whole Catholic Church.
Speaker: is gone off the rails. And. We're separate from it. yeah you know we We don't want to have anything to do with it. The reformers said, Well, we think there's some good things.
Speaker: that have just been muddied by all of this other stuff. And so. We just want to reform it. We want to get rid of the bad stuff. But... We're still keeping.
Speaker: the parts that we do like. And. Again. Lots of great came out of it, but there were still certain things. That as Catholics.
Speaker: they were still looking back to and holding on to. That may still have not. been Correct. yeah And so they fixed a lot of things, but.
Speaker: Part of the reason that we have so many denominations is... There were some things that were holdover. Yeah. that. uh they may have been confused on and yeah again not to say that I know more than Calvin or Luther or anything like that. There's yeah plenty that I'm confused on. and You know, there's things that I've.
Speaker: know now that 15, 20 years ago. I didn't know and and yeah things that I believed back then that now I'm like, man, I was an idiot. yeah And I'm sure 15, 20 years from now, I'm going to look back and some things I believe now, I'm going to be like, I i was an idiot. yeah you know yeah yeah We're all growing in sanctification in santification and and knowledge and understanding. Reformed and always reforming. That's right. yeah um But yeah, so.
Speaker: there were certain things that were held onto because they weren't necessarily trying to create a new church. They were trying to reform. the church that they felt like hadn't lost its way yeah that's right Yeah, and and it's funny what you said. i And I'm the same way. i I think I'm right about. Lord's Supper, which would be different than Calvin. I think I'm right about baptism, which would be different than Calvin.
Speaker: But if Calvin were alive today and he wanted to have a you know big X debate, no, I'm not going to debate. No, I'm not going to debate Calvin publicly. Right, yeah. I'll have coffee with you. Yeah. yeah Excuse me.
Speaker: You can come to our men's Bible study on Wednesday night, and we'll we'll debate it. We'll hash it out, but yeah not publicly. I'm not going to debate Calvin. but And we can all agree on, again, as we already said, on those core tenets of grace alone, faith alone. Yeah, oh yeah. Christ alone. That's right. um Yeah. Again, like I said.
Speaker: Those were the good things that came out of that was. the the reminder of what the Bible teaches yeah about Christ and about salvation. That's right. I think what we're going to have to do with your permission is. This will be an actual two -parter. Can we do that?
Speaker: Okay. Because I think we have a lot more to talk about. in terms of why people are moving away from. evangelicalism toward Catholicism or the other. other you know Anglicanism or whatever, but it will give us an opportunity to put some theological issues on the table as well.
Speaker: we only try to go you know 40 to 50 minutes on our our broadcast and we're we're pushing 50 now so yeah Maybe next time we can. talk about sacramentalism. We can talk about Lord's Supper, baptism.
Speaker: and not in the normal ways that most people talk about them. trying to explain theologically where we are, helping folk in our... Teo. Not to be tempted to walk away.
Speaker: But helping those who who are thinking about. Okay, well. I want to get away from the rock concert TED Talk. Okay, we do too. We do too. But don't go so far. And and here's why.
Speaker: And. um I just think we can talk about some of those things and we can talk about. More good things that actually did come out of the Reformation, like the five solas and what what those things are all about. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: See you soon. Yeah. Just, I'll say to close. Just as a a reminder, we're not out here to bash the Catholic Church. We're not bashing those that are. in this flux right now and and trying to figure out.
Speaker: What does real church look like? What does true worship look like? And maybe they're tempted to to head towards. the Catholic tradition. Or whatever it may be We're not even bashing those that.
Speaker: Maybe... lean more heavily evangelical even than like you said when than we would right what we want. In... the goal of this discussion as it is with all of our discussions is We want... anyone out there who's searching who's questioning, who's looking.
Speaker: to understand that worldly tradition. earthly wisdom is not the answer. So... Even though we talk about different denominations and and different backgrounds and all of these things.
Speaker: The... That central truth is what. that we will always want to come back to. whatever we're doing with our church, however we do our worship. We want that that central core to be.
Speaker: that Salvation is found through faith. In Christ. alone. And. So that's... Again, it's not to push a certain denomination or to bash a certain denomination.
Speaker: But we want the gospel to be. yeah at the forefront. Yeah, absolutely. And our authority is... Scripture. Scripture. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. I'm done. okay You done?
Speaker: That's it. All right. We'll do some more next time. All right. fun. Answering Pilot. The Answering Pilot Podcast is a ministry of Randall House Church in Greer, South Carolina. You can learn more at www .randallhousegreer .com slash church.
Speaker: You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Randall House Church. Don't forget to like and subscribe. and we'll see you next time.
