Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 137: 3 Pricing Mistakes: What You Should Do Instead
495 Plays3 years ago
Bonnie Bakhtiari from “B is for Bonnie Design” is on the podcast today chatting about the three most common pricing mistakes that she sees designers make. Even if you're not a designer, these are pricing mistakes that any service-based business needs to be aware of. We're diving into those price mistakes and then we chat about what businesses should do instead. Bonnie is a brand designer and strategist who also educates other brand designers, graphic designers, and web designers on how to create profitable businesses. Be sure to check out the show notes at daveyandkrista.com for the resources that we mentioned during the episode.
For show notes visit...https://daveyandkrista.com/btb-episode-137-3-pricing-mistakes-what-you-should-do-instead/
Recommended
Transcript
Pricing Services: Hours vs. Value
00:00:05
Speaker
This idea that designers, especially with, well, I would say actually a lot of service providers can relate to this pricing strategy, but especially designers, we're often taught that we should be figuring out what our services look like and what that rate looks like based on the number of hours that it takes us to complete that project. And so what happens is we find ourselves charging based on our time, but not charging on the value that we bring to the table.
Podcast Introduction by Davy Jones
00:00:37
Speaker
Welcome to the Brands at Book Show, where we help creative, service-based businesses build their brands and find more clients. I'm your host, Davy Jones.
Pricing Mistakes by Designers
00:00:49
Speaker
Bonnie Bakhtiari from B is for Bonnie Designs is on the podcast today chatting about the three most common pricing mistakes that she sees designers making. And even if you're not a designer, these are pricing mistakes that any service-based business needs to be aware of. So we're diving into those pricing mistakes and then we chat what businesses should do instead.
Building Profitable Design Businesses
00:01:10
Speaker
Bonnie's a brand designer and strategist who also educates other brand designers, graphic designers, and web designers on how to create profitable businesses.
00:01:19
Speaker
Be sure to check out the show notes at DavyandChrista.com for the resources that we mentioned during the episode. And we want to hear from you. Let us know what kind of content you'd like to see on the Brands That Book podcast as we move forward. To leave your feedback, just send us a DM on Instagram at DavyandChrista. Now, on to the episode.
Davy's Insights on Pricing Complexity
00:01:39
Speaker
All right, welcome back to another episode of the brands that book podcast excited to be here with Bonnie from these for Bonnie design. Bonnie someone we've known for a while now. And I'm not even sure I ballpark. How long have we known each other you think it's got to be creative heart I'm thinking probably the first one right so all the way back in what was that 2015 2016
00:02:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, certainly over five years ago now. So it has been a while. So way too long to have gone without having you on the podcast. That's for sure. So I'm glad we're, I'm glad we're rectifying that today. And we're talking about, I think an interesting topic. So specifically, we're talking about pricing mistakes that designers make.
00:02:19
Speaker
However, I think if you're listening to this and you're not a designer, I think that a lot of what we're going to be talking about today is going to apply to you if you're a service-based business. I'm excited to dive into this
Bonnie's Journey into Entrepreneurship
00:02:32
Speaker
topic. I feel like pricing is a headache. For every business that I've ever been a part of, dialing in in has been super important. Also, I think it's a little bit more complicated sometimes than we think it ought to be.
00:02:47
Speaker
And maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe sometimes we make it more complicated than it should be.
Reflecting on Growth and Mistakes
00:02:52
Speaker
So anyways, I'm excited for you to demystify that for us a little bit today. But Bonnie, for people who haven't known you for the past five years, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
00:03:01
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, thanks so much for kind of diving into a little bit of what we're covering today. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. And for those who I haven't had the pleasure of connecting with before, like you said, my name is Bonnie. I am a brand designer and strategist for creative entrepreneurs. I'm also an educator for fellow designers, which totally aligns with kind of what we're talking about today. So I teach graphic brand and web designers how they can create consistent income in their design business
00:03:31
Speaker
so that they can reclaim their time, creativity, and their energy. A little bit about me personally, I have been an entrepreneur since 2012. I live in beautiful Waco, Texas with my husband of nine years and are two incredibly rambunctious and sweet golden retrievers named Quinn and Boone.
00:03:52
Speaker
super excited to really be diving into this topic today because actually back in 2012 when I started my business, I kind of fell into entrepreneurship almost accidentally. I never set out to start a business. I wasn't that kid who always had a dream of launching my own business or working for myself or doing something like that, but I actually found myself in this season of life. I was getting ready to graduate from college and I was kind of
00:04:22
Speaker
on the cusp of a lot of change, right? So about to graduate, I was engaged at the time, so planning our wedding, getting ready to get married. My fiance at the time now has been, was located on the other side of the country in California. I was in Texas at the time, so getting ready to do this big cross country move. And for some reason at the time, I was like, you know what, this sounds like a great time to start a business.
00:04:45
Speaker
Why not? There's not enough change happening in your life right now. And my reason behind that was I wanted to create something that I could take with me and I wanted to create something that I could build online and allow that to be a creative outlet, allow that to be something that helps me help other people and also allows me to contribute financially to this new
00:05:06
Speaker
family that we're creating. And it's been amazing to see that since that kind of first step into starting this business, it's been something where all of the mistakes that I'm talking through today, I can you know, tell you about them because I've made them myself. And I want to see designers have the freedom and the know how and the confidence to bypass them so that they're able to, like I said earlier, really
From Side Hustle to Full-Time Business
00:05:33
Speaker
Have a business that protects your time and your energy and your creativity because I know what it's like to be growing something from the ground up I know what it's like to be going that, you know, kind of self-starter route and I am excited about sharing what I know now, you know kind of looking back next year will be my 10th year in business and I'm excited to just share what I know so that others have the resources and support to pursue what success looks like to them because you know, we all have a different definition that we're pursuing and
00:06:03
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Well, congratulations on coming up on 10 years in business. That's a big milestone. So that is awesome. And I don't even really know where we should get started with pricing because I think for a lot of us, you know, I remember when Krista started the design business and a lot of it was, you know, I mean, this is back in college even.
00:06:22
Speaker
So, you know, posting, I don't even remember what it was. It wasn't like Upwork or Fiverr or anything like that, but probably something relatively similar, you know? And just realizing, oh, wow, so okay, this is like extra money. At the time I'm teaching, she has, you know, her first job out of college as a website designer for a nonprofit. And so there is this weird like, okay, well, anything extra coming in right now is just really nice. You know, it's like,
00:06:47
Speaker
however much, a couple hundred dollars for projects here, a couple hundred dollars for a project there, and that's fine if you're working a full-time job and I guess it's still in that baby side hustle state. But somewhere along the way, when you decide, okay, well, I'm going to take this full-time or I want to be full-time,
00:07:07
Speaker
and you're still charging a couple hundred dollars for a project here and there, right? Something has to change or you have to take a thousand of those projects and it ultimately leads to burnout. So I guess where should we start with the pricing conversation? Why is it important to dial in pricing?
00:07:22
Speaker
That's a really great place to start and a really great question because in my experience and just like you said, right? Like when you're taking your business, like let's say this is something that started out as a side hustle, but you're coming into a season where you're wanting to take it full time or maybe it's something that you maybe you never started out with a side hustle. You decided to just like go all in on this idea and you decided to, you know, cutting
00:07:45
Speaker
dive in at that full time level of intensity right off the bat, whatever that looks like when you're taking your business to that level where we're not just talking about earning like, you know, some extra spending cash here and there, but we're talking about providing for your family or covering your rent or covering any kind of expenses you have.
00:08:04
Speaker
adding to your savings account pain down and going towards incredible experiences like vacations for your family or something really special for your kids you want for that to be something that has this stability.
00:08:18
Speaker
with it and your pricing is what allows you to really generate that kind of revenue and figure out, okay, this is what I'm setting as my goal of how much I want to be making.
Strategic Pricing for Financial Freedom
00:08:28
Speaker
This is where my services are coming in in terms of where I'm pricing them. But having that understanding of how that fits into your life, I think can be really empowering and really motivating because instead of it just being this like abstract number that we're pulling out of thin air,
00:08:42
Speaker
It's a number that allows you to control what you're earning, how you're positioning yourself in your industry, and how your business can actually practically impact your life. And that can be life changing. Like with all those examples I shared earlier about, you know, thinking about what your business is bringing in and how your pricing yourself can impact
00:09:00
Speaker
your ability to save towards retirement or, you know, take your family on a vacation or, you know, treat yourself like that's a really beautiful thing that can allow you to experience higher levels of financial freedom, which can then create more security, more joy, more ease in your life. And so that can be really powerful. So the reason I know that pricing, it doesn't necessarily seem like the most exciting conversation that we can have today, but actually
00:09:27
Speaker
Like if we step back a little bit and we think about like as a designer, getting your pricing right, how that can change your life. Like I get excited about that because I can see how much possibility that can create in people's lives. And I know that because it's created that kind of freedom and that kind of financial security in my own life. And I'm sure that y'all feel the same way with your businesses over the years, knowing how you can depend on that work and how you've set up your services in a way
Conveying Service Value to Clients
00:09:55
Speaker
where it will bring in consistent income and it will help you earn what you want to be earning. That's a really beautiful feeling.
00:10:01
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that I'm excited for in this conversation is beyond the practical of being able to save for retirement and maybe having a little bit more freedom and flexibility in your life, I do think that it communicates something to clients right off the bat. It communicates value to a certain extent. Once you have that dialed in, it's a lot easier to sell people. I'm really excited to dive into that with you. Should we jump into the three mistakes that you're going to chat about today?
00:10:29
Speaker
Yeah, let's do it. So first of all, like I said, like at the beginning of this conversation, the reason why I'm speaking to some common mistakes around pricing and generating consistent income as a designer is because like I have made all of these mistakes before. So I'm coming from a very real personal experience.
00:10:47
Speaker
I haven't heard the mistakes yet, but I probably will be able to raise my hand for each of them as well. You know, so excited for the conversation. No judgment zone. Like we've all been in that season before. And it's great to be able to you know, hindsight is 2020. So it's great to be able to come to the conversation and talk
Pitfalls of Competitor-Based Pricing
00:11:03
Speaker
through some of these. So if you know, you're listening today, and you're resonating with one of these or all three of them, first of all, don't beat yourself up. This is like, you know, there's no shame in this. This is just designed to point out
00:11:14
Speaker
areas for growth. And I like to think of these not as mistakes or failures. I like to think of them as ways that we can grow in areas for a new opportunity to come into your business. So kind of like you were just saying, Davey, actually, when we think about our pricing, it can be a great way, yes, to provide for our businesses and to pour into our lives financially, but it also really dictates the way
00:11:39
Speaker
that your ideal clients are viewing you, and it can communicate the value that you bring to the table so, so, so clearly. But what I see a lot of designers falling into, and this is a really common pricing mistake that I especially see, and not just new designers, not just, you know, kind of like, you know, getting started freelancers, but people who have been in business for years, this mistake of pricing yourself solely based on what your competition is charging.
00:12:06
Speaker
And so what that looks like is you are setting up your packages and you are, you know, thinking about what deliverables you want to include and you're trying to figure out, okay, like what's a good going rate for what I want to provide? Well, you know, the kind of default thought is, let me just do a little Google search here, or let me like hop on Instagram and, you know, identify some designers who
00:12:29
Speaker
you know, look like my competition. Let me go to their websites, look at their services and sales pages and see what their packages include and see what they're charging. And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing to do or that's the wrong thing to do because like that research can be incredibly valuable and just knowing like where you fit into the market in your area in terms of price,
00:12:51
Speaker
or in terms of deliverables, but we don't want to just leave it there. I see a lot of designers who they'll like do that search and they'll gather that info and then they just kind of stop there and they say, okay, well so-and-so is charging, you know, $1,500. So I'm going to charge $1,500.
00:13:06
Speaker
But what we don't look at when we do that, because we forget that that designer might be charging that because they've already done the work of figuring out what their overhead costs are. And they've gone into the process of figuring out what that number needs to look like.
00:13:21
Speaker
for their business model and we don't know, you know, the back end reality of what their business looks like. I was actually having a conversation with one of my students inside my program for designers and she kind of referenced this really amazing designer that she looks up to and she says, hey, how am I ever supposed to charge what, you know, they're charging when I don't have the level of experience they have? Or, you know, she was kind of telling herself the story of like, who am I to charge that kind of money? And I told her, we don't actually know what's going into
00:13:51
Speaker
that person's behind the scenes. Like I actually know that designer and I know for a fact that they have white label designers who work under them. And so their pricing structure looks very different from what your pricing structure as an individual designer who will be doing all of that work
00:14:06
Speaker
can look like or should look like so really when we're looking at what other people are charging we do kind of have to take that with a grain of salt and remember that it's essentially you know this comparison of apples and oranges and so it can be easy to get down on yourself or feel like okay will
Value-Based Pricing vs. Time-Based Pricing
00:14:21
Speaker
my rates
00:14:21
Speaker
should look like so and so's rates, but you don't know the full picture. You don't know what their financial need looks like. And if you don't take it a step further and then consider what your financial need looks like and what that number should look like in terms of your service rates, you could be leaving money on the table actually. And so that's definitely not something that I want to see people falling into.
00:14:45
Speaker
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with that. I think that's great advice as well. I mean, just in terms of only, you know, if you're going to do the competitive research, which we probably all should do, but it's only a part of the puzzle, you know, it's only one piece of the puzzle and having an understanding, of course, your costs, you know, I certainly go into that as well. But then also the just the value that you're bringing to the table in terms of, you know, I'm thinking about till agency, for instance. And I would say we are probably on the higher end in terms of, you know, retainer, but we're working the kind of client that wants
00:15:14
Speaker
They want custom dashboards. They don't want a cookie cutter process that other agencies provide where they're only charging maybe a couple hundred dollars a month. But the process is going to be exactly the same for all of their clients. I think that's great advice. Not looking just solely at the competition. What's the next mistake?
00:15:34
Speaker
Well, actually what you were just talking about segues beautifully into this second mistake that I see people flying into. And it's this idea that designers, especially with, well, I would say actually a lot of service providers can relate to this pricing strategy, but especially designers, we're often taught that we should be creating a proposal or we should be figuring out what our services look like and what that rate looks like based on the number of hours that it takes us to complete that project.
00:16:04
Speaker
And so what happens is we find ourselves charging based on our time, but not charging on the value that we bring to the table. And again, this is another instance where designers are leaving thousands and thousands of dollars on the table because they're looking only at the number of hours that takes them to do that work and to
00:16:24
Speaker
create those deliverables. But actually, if we just reframed our mindsets a little bit, and we looked at the incredible value that you're bringing to the table that your client will experience, that is where you can actually kind of like unlock an entirely new pricing structure that allows you to charge more and more and more for your services. And right, if we think about
00:16:46
Speaker
charging based on your time, eventually you're going to hit a cap and eventually right because we only have 24 hours in the day and hopefully you're not working 24 hours a day. Hopefully your work day looks a little bit nicer than that. But if we think about like right time is finite and if we also think about the truth that with the work that you're doing, the more experience you gain as a designer,
00:17:08
Speaker
the faster and more competent you are at, you know, designing an illustrator or putting together a wireframe for a website or coding or any of those kinds of things. So actually what happens is when you charge hourly, the faster you become, the better you become, you're unintentionally penalizing yourself because what used to maybe take you, you know, two hours to do now takes you 45 minutes to do. And if you're charging hourly, you know, like that gets to be dicey pretty quickly.
00:17:35
Speaker
So what we want to do is we want to actually focus on the value. And just like you were saying with till agency, the value that y'all bring to the table when you work with your clients is different from maybe what other agencies are offering. And so you don't have to be the same as, you know, in terms of pricing, you don't have to be charging exactly what they're charging or even comparable to what they're charging. Instead, you can ask yourself,
00:18:01
Speaker
This service that I'm providing, what transformation does it offer to my client? How will it help them grow their business? How will it help them change their life? What kind of value will they receive from this? And then we can start thinking about what does that look like? What would that be worth to your ideal client?
00:18:19
Speaker
And here's where you can do some research and you can actually go out and chat with ideal clients, people who match that ideal client profile and get that data from them directly.
Understanding Client Perceived Value
00:18:28
Speaker
So we're not pricing ourselves based on assumptions. Instead, we're hearing from people directly. Let's say if you're a designer and you offer
00:18:36
Speaker
Brand and website design but you have a really strategic approach that Consistently allows your clients after lunch to increase their rates to see a dramatic boost in revenue to hit really Incredible sales goals or to grow a team or tick, you know The list could go on and on and on but if you have that kind of data from your past client launches
00:18:57
Speaker
Well, then you can go out and you can ask your ideal clients. Hey, if we work together and I could create this kind of transformation for you, what would that be worth to you? Like, what would you be willing to invest in that? And so let's say if you create a visual brand and a website that helps your client
00:19:15
Speaker
you know, hit six figures, make six figures in a year. To me, it just, it seems wild to think that we would charge, you know, $1,000 for something that has an incredible amount of earning potential with it as well. So that's really something that I just kind of want to encourage designers to think about is yes, your time is important. And we want to think about how much time is going into the work that you're doing. But we, again, we want to take it further and we want to look at
00:19:41
Speaker
the value that you're bringing to the table because you as a designer are creating assets that allow for your clients to position themselves the way that they want to be viewed in the industry. It helps them earn more or it helps them sell consistently. It helps them do these things that have a direct and measurable ROI. From my perspective, it doesn't make sense to just be charging pennies when you're making someone hundreds of thousands of dollars and millions.
00:20:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you have – have you seen that, like, it's a viral meme and it's something along the lines of, like, there's this big cargo ship and it has some sort of very specific issue. There's no other mechanic that can do – they're having trouble finding a mechanic that can do the job. They finally find a guy. He comes in, taps this piece of equipment with a hammer, takes him 15 minutes. He leaves. It's fixed, right? He sends him a bill and the bill is for tens of thousands of dollars. And so the owner of the cargo ship is like, hey, what's – it took you 15 minutes to do this.
00:20:37
Speaker
What's this bill about is like i'm not charging for my time charging for the experience that you know it's taking me to figure out how to solve this problem so quickly right so and i thought that was you know funny and i think it fits well with the point that you're trying to make or that you're making you know so.
00:20:53
Speaker
And it's one of those hard things, though, to figure out, though, how you, you know, I guess, how you figure out the value that you're potentially providing a client, right? So I really like the idea of going out and finding somebody who is an ideal client. And do you think that this has to be somebody that you've worked with in the past? Or can it be just somebody that you know, you would want to work with potentially in the future?
00:21:15
Speaker
I think that going out and finding people who you actually have not worked with before can give you really great insight and an additional level of experience and an additional perspective that you might not receive from a past client. One of the reasons why I do recommend going out and conducting these ideal client interviews and getting that information and just hearing where people are is because
00:21:37
Speaker
value is subjective and so yes of course as much as we want to look at the numbers and have that data and we want to be able to say. I as a designer am able to consistently help my clients you know like 3x their revenue or 10x their revenue or you know through the work that i do after they launch and that is really helpful.
00:21:57
Speaker
but we have to remember that every person is different and so every ideal client perceives value in a different way so to some person let's say you're just getting started in your business and you need to hire a designer and you see that this designer if you work with them and if you can you know.
00:22:15
Speaker
Scrounge up that investment that can help you 10x your revenue for that year But you're not at that level yet or you don't know who your ideal clients are well enough to justify that level of investment Well, then right as the designer that's a lead that you might not be converting, but that's okay
00:22:32
Speaker
pay because the kinds of people who want the level of transformation that your service provides and who look at the rates that you're charging and say, that is absolutely, I see, I understand why they are charging with their charging.
Educating Clients on Design Value
00:22:44
Speaker
Yes, maybe it's more than I would have initially budgeted, but I see the results that they can deliver for me. So it makes good business sense for me to make this investment.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I would say, you know, just kind of one of the objections that I might hear somebody say is, well, I feel like there's certain things that I like they could just do it themselves. You know, like, well, what's stopping them from just kind of doing it themselves or something along those lines? You know, recently, it's funny, Krista fired me from doing our ads, not till agency, like I was doing, you know, Davey and Krista's and was like, you know, hey, listen, like, you know, I know you can do this, but you don't have the time to do it.
00:23:24
Speaker
right? And I think it was a good reminder for me that there are certain things where maybe I'm quick to just be like, oh, we'll just take care of that for you. Because it's something they could do. And typically, I wouldn't do that unless they were a client or whatnot. But I think it was a good reminder for me like, okay, well, no, because
00:23:40
Speaker
You know, they might be able to do that themselves or figure it out on their own. I mean, any of us really can figure out anything, right? But there's value in and of itself of just hiring somebody else to do it. You know, I was thinking about this with, and this is a random home stuff, but our well, we're on well water. I don't know if you guys are on well water as well, but we have to have somebody come and you know, like there's UV lights, there's all this stuff. It's not important.
00:24:03
Speaker
The thing is, this company, they're just like, hey, they charge us to come out and change this UV light. Yeah, I could do it, but I would have to remember to order the UV light every year. I'd have to crawl down in my crawl space and get it installed and then I have to make sure it's working or I could just hire them to do it. That provides a lot of value for me because it's time I get back to spend with Jack or whatever. But point being, is that kind of how you would respond to somebody who's like, well, I don't know, I feel like people could do maybe
00:24:32
Speaker
Especially, I think, with brand design or especially, where I think unlike website design, where people very much understand the tangible product they get, sometimes with brand design, they're like, well, really, what are you doing? It's like some fonts and colors. I can go on Pinterest and use a little color dropper and whatnot, when really, when you look at a good website, it's often because there's a great brand behind it.
00:24:58
Speaker
So anyways, that's just me. Obviously, I'm a verbal processor and I'm just kind of talking through this. But what do you think about that?
00:25:07
Speaker
I totally see where you're coming from. And I can actually like relate to that of, you know, hearing people. And that's something that, you know, I've definitely heard over the years that I've been working with clients one on one, I've definitely heard that, you know, okay, well, what actually goes into this, you know, is it just like, you know, fonts that I could find on creative market and they don't understand the nuance that goes into custom logo design, or they don't understand
00:25:32
Speaker
If you're offering some kind of strategy component and you're doing a lot of research and a lot of positioning work with them, they don't understand that. And so that's where as designers, we have this exciting opportunity to communicate more of the value and to educate people because
00:25:48
Speaker
The average entrepreneur might not understand what goes into brand design. They might not understand what they're receiving when they get a custom brand identity. But if that's your bread and butter and if that's what you love doing, then you know exactly what goes into that. And you have this great opportunity, whether that's on a sales call or a console call or even on your website.
00:26:10
Speaker
You have this opportunity to share, hey, this is so much more than just pretty colors and, you know, like really cool fonts. This is, you know, and you can pull back the curtain a little bit because when we're asking people to invest in our services and especially invest at higher and higher and higher levels, there is a level of education where we can show them exactly how we can take care of them. We can help them achieve their goals and we can help them experience the kind of
00:26:39
Speaker
growth that they're looking for as a direct byproduct of working with us. But that might require that we do a little bit of hand holding in the beginning and help set those expectations and share that information and educate proactively so that we're connecting with people who get it from the get go and they get it because you took that extra time to explain that to them.
Overcoming Undercharging and Confidence Issues
00:26:59
Speaker
Yeah, awesome. Well, let's move on to mistake number three.
00:27:03
Speaker
Yes, let's do it. So the third mistake that I see designers making around their pricing and this is a big one that keeps them from experiencing consistent income is this idea that they're pricing themselves based on their level of confidence or their lack thereof.
00:27:19
Speaker
And what I mean by that is it can be really easy, especially for designers who are newer, who are just getting started and maybe don't have a lot of paying clients under their belt and don't have those projects in their portfolio. It can be really easy to feel very insecure about the work that you're producing as a designer. And then as a direct result, you might feel insecure about what you're charging. You might think, oh my gosh, there's no way that someone would pay me
00:27:47
Speaker
you know, like $1,000 to do this kind of work. Or you might think that, you know, what you see other designers charging when you're doing that kind of competition analysis, you might think, wow, I have no idea how I'm ever going to get to that point where I'm able to charge, you know, $10,000 for a brand package. But what we want to actually do here is first of all acknowledge that that is a mindset shift that can unlock
00:28:13
Speaker
levels of growth and a newfound sense of confidence that can not only impact your business positively, but it can also just help you experience a greater sense of ease in yourself and the way that you're viewing yourself. So I see, you know, some designers who they will just dramatically like dramatically undercharge for their work because they are telling themselves,
00:28:37
Speaker
I don't have enough experience or I'm not talented enough or I'm a self-taught designer and I didn't go to college for this and I don't have a design degree. We tell ourselves all these stories about why we don't deserve to be charging what we want to be charging. But realistically, if we think back to
00:28:55
Speaker
the value approach with value-based pricing. That equation, the beauty of that is we're charging based on the value that your client will experience. We're not charging based on how good you think you are. We're not charging based on how confident you are in your ability. We're charging based on the level of transformation and the incredible growth that you can empower your clients to experience through the work that you're doing. So with that being said, instead of automatically like
00:29:24
Speaker
setting a price and saying, oh no, I'm getting freaked out by this. This looks like way too much money. I'm going to cut it in half. So instead of charging, you know, I don't know, like $1,500 for logo design, I'm going to charge $500 for logo design or something where we're like dramatically, dramatically undercutting ourselves and playing small. This is something where I see especially a lot of
00:29:47
Speaker
women entrepreneurs falling into this mindset where we believe that oh I can't charge that or oh this is just too much you know for me to be charging but realistically if you look at the work that you're doing and if you look at the level of experience that you're pouring into your craft
00:30:04
Speaker
And especially for the kind of person where even if you are a self-taught designer, which I'm a self-taught designer and that has been actually I think a really amazing experience for me personally because it's given me this chance to continually grow and it's given me this chance to
00:30:19
Speaker
Adopt this attitude of constant learning and I love that personally, like if I can nerd out over education and how to use the tutorials like I'm there, but with designers who are feeling like, okay, I'm not quite at that level where I'm secure in my ability.
00:30:35
Speaker
First of all, know that that's okay. First of all, know that we all start at that point. I don't think very few of us actually start our businesses feeling like 100% confident that we have all the answers and we know exactly what we're doing and we are so, so self-assured in every step that we're putting in place.
00:30:53
Speaker
I would say to the amount of interviews that I've done with people at this point, the amount of people or the percentage of those interviews, not a lot of people went to school for what they're doing now. I would say my undergraduate degree was in theology. You're using that every day, right?
00:31:11
Speaker
Exactly. I mean, on one hand, yes, but you know, practically in the business, right? But yeah, I mean, so many people, I get a lot of teachers, that seems to be a common background. But I mean, the amount of people who actually went to school and then, you know, started and then actually transitioned into what they're doing now, I think, actually, I can't think of a single one off the top of my head. I'm sure I have, I'm sure one of them, you know, I'm sure there's somebody I interviewed, but most people. So anyways, just to say that, but go ahead.
00:31:35
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Like we got to normalize this idea of being self-taught of, you know, like pivoting from one area of expertise into another. And so if that's holding you back from, you know, pricing yourself the way that you want to be pricing yourself or charging what you want to be charging, like let's just go ahead and like cross that one off the list altogether, because that doesn't need to be something that holds you back. If it's a level of confidence, like you're getting started and you're feeling insecure about the amount of work that you have,
00:32:04
Speaker
Passion projects are a great way to fill up your portfolio as a designer. Getting clients who are essentially treating them as beta testers or kind of like a beta clients where maybe you're letting them test out and at the same time you're getting a chance to see what it looks like to walk through the client process from start to finish with all of your systems and all of the communication and everything plus the design work. Maybe you could offer them a slightly discounted rate in exchange for that experience and for their feedback
00:32:31
Speaker
but you're still delivering that great result and building your expertise and your confidence along the way. We could talk about building your confidence all day long, but I don't want for that to be something that we're looking at from an emotional standpoint where I see designers in my experience get stuck with confidence and how confidence fits into their pricing is they're pricing themselves based on emotion
00:32:57
Speaker
When actually if we remove some of that emotion and we look practically and we look more analytically at the value that you're bringing to the table at the level of expertise that you're bringing to the table and these things that are going into your pricing.
Data-Driven Pricing Strategies
00:33:12
Speaker
Plus what your financial need is, what your expenses are, what you want to be putting aside for taxes, what you want to be saving, right? Like we could create all of that and map that out. That would give you a very clear data-based idea of what can go into your pricing. And we don't necessarily need to add in the emotion of it because while the emotion is important and it's valid, it doesn't dictate what you're charging. And when you're charging based on this feeling of confidence or if you're pricing yourself based on this feeling of insecurity,
00:33:42
Speaker
actually what it does is it doesn't really help you grow a successful and a sustainable business. It just keeps you in those feelings of insecurity or it's keeping you in that feeling of lack of confidence. So I would encourage you, you know, there's so much possibility. There's so much that you can experience as a designer, even if you're just building up your experience and you're just getting started. Look at it as this exciting opportunity, not as a place where you're already behind and you have to catch up. Look at it as
00:34:11
Speaker
I'm starting something, I'm taking these steps, and I'm creating something that can provide this amazing experience and this incredible amount of possibility for me, for my family, and for my life. So I would say that we can kind of look at the data and not so much get caught up in the emotion of it all that can serve you better and actually give you a more stable pricing structure that serves you well in the long run.
00:34:40
Speaker
Yeah, and confidence, I feel like is one of those things that's sort of tricky because, you know, I think throughout an entire entrepreneurial journey, it's not something that maybe you just have to battle in the beginning, right? And maybe, you know, for some people, like it's not something in the beginning that they have battle with at all. But I'd be surprised if throughout the duration of somebody's entrepreneurial life that they don't have different places where they're
00:35:02
Speaker
Confidence is shot at different points or it's just an area where they need that needs to be worked on. And I can certainly say that's been true of my journey. And one of the things that makes the biggest difference, I think, and probably what makes a community like yours, Bonnie, so valuable is having people, you know, in your corner that you can talk to about things and you can call you out and just be like, hey, you know, in this instance, you are playing it small or
00:35:24
Speaker
Like really like why are you doing things this way? It makes no sense, you know, so coaches mentors good friends I think friends who are in entrepreneurial Some entrepreneurial space often help, you know, I think friends I have a lot of good friends who are not entrepreneurs Sometimes just don't know necessarily how to speak to that side of my life But I think that has made you know, one of the biggest differences for me when it comes to confidence
00:35:49
Speaker
I totally agree that those relationships and having that support for me personally also has been just game changing in the way that I'm able to process situations or the way that I feel supported and encouraged and in a lot of cases challenged to grow or to be facing
00:36:06
Speaker
you know, shortcomings or things that I could be doing better in ways that I can be growing as a person. And yeah, I think that like, even if you are just looking at your personal support system, having friends having, you know, industry friends who can support you and who you can like, just vent
00:36:23
Speaker
too, or you can like brain dump with, or they can help you if you're an external processor, they can like be that sounding word for you. That's incredibly, incredibly valuable. And I also, you know, can speak from my own experience of when, you know, I started my business, there were shortcomings that I experienced and areas of, you know, confidence where I could have grown or, you know, things that I wanted to grow areas that I wanted to grow in.
Navigating Growth and Confidence
00:36:49
Speaker
And you know, so I committed to doing that. And
00:36:51
Speaker
I worked through those areas for growth, but every time I like reach a different level in business or every time I get to this point where like, Oh, I know how to do this and I feel confident in my ability to do this, or I feel, you know, really confident in my ability to problem solve in this way, inevitably, as your business grows.
00:37:08
Speaker
It stretches you in different ways so now you know the ways that i'm growing as a person and as an entrepreneur and business owner in your nine are not the ways that i was challenging myself to grow and you know my very first year in business but i actually think that that's a really cool thing about being a business owner is your on this journey and if you want to continue to
00:37:30
Speaker
Be kind of that lifelong learner who's constantly growing and constantly finding ways to show up for yourself and to become a better version of yourself.
Starting Without a Client Base
00:37:38
Speaker
There's tons of possibility with that and it can be a really beautiful journey.
00:37:41
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that, and you kind of touched on this in mistake number three, talking about confidence. But then also, I just wanted to, as we wrap up the conversation, I don't want to end the conversation without talking about for people who don't have a ton of work. And I know you mentioned this a little bit, maybe people are just getting started, they know sort of the value, the level they want to be at. And so maybe they're
00:38:04
Speaker
more of a luxury level brand. The challenging thing about that is that you don't want to necessarily start with the clients who want to pay less. I'll put it that way because it doesn't ultimately help you get to where you want to go. What would you recommend to somebody who's just starting out, doesn't have a lot or maybe any previous client work to show off? Where should they get started?
00:38:26
Speaker
That is such a great question and I'm so glad we're covering this because I think there's quite a few options out there that if people choose to take them then that can open you up to having a stronger foundation for your business and having a portfolio that is filled with projects that are commiserate with the level of
00:38:48
Speaker
experience that you want to be inviting your future clients into. So with that being said, some places that I recommend starting, if you're just getting started and you want to be booking clients and maybe like you said, Davey, if you want to be booking clients at maybe more of a luxury price point or certainly a higher price point, a great place to start is actually your own brand. And this is something that I don't know if people are giving this as much attention as they can or might
00:39:16
Speaker
be able to because you are your own biggest success story. So if you are building your own brand and your own website from scratch, you absolutely can use that as a case study. You absolutely can show how maybe you built this brand and as you were doing that, you were building your social media accounts and maybe you can show how having this very branded presence
00:39:39
Speaker
On instagram for example help you grow and you know gain your first thousand followers in a short amount of time like all of that information is data that you can use on top of that passion project so that's gonna be like a personal
00:39:54
Speaker
project that you do. It could be a pretend client or sort of an imaginary sort of brief that you are designing for. But again, that is not necessarily paid work, but it has the possibility, it has the ability to generate paid work for you in the future by helping to supplement your portfolio with actual designs. And you could
00:40:15
Speaker
You know, really let yourself kind of run wild there. Let's say that, you know, the kind of industry that you want to be targeting through your design work and you want it to match a very specific aesthetic or you want it to have a very luxe and elevated feel. Well, you could create all of that and include that in your portfolio.
00:40:34
Speaker
use that to then get out in front of your ideal clients and show them what you can do and what's possible. Another idea, if you're wanting to work with clients at a higher rate, but you don't have anyone who's on your roster or on your calendar as a paying client just yet,
00:40:50
Speaker
One way would be to essentially kind of go out there and get clients who are almost like beta testers for your services and you could offer them, if you don't want to offer them a discount, you could offer them more deliverables or some kind of value add.
00:41:05
Speaker
And what you're doing there, you're generating income and you're getting a chance to test out your process, see what your workflow looks like, go through the client communication process, hand off those assets and deliverables at the end and guide the client through the launch. If let's say you're doing brand and website design or like a full brand identity project.
00:41:25
Speaker
And so that can help you to fill up your portfolio even if you're just getting started and you don't have any prior client projects that you want to bring with you. This also can work really well if you are a designer who you're pivoting. Like let's say maybe you started out as a freelance graphic designer. You got into brand design and that's something that you really enjoy and that's a niche that you really want to spend more time in.
00:41:49
Speaker
And you want to be working with a higher end wellness brands. Let's say that that's a niche that really speaks to you. Well, if you don't have any projects that from your past business that you want to bring into this like pivot with maybe a new business or just changing the messaging and the positioning of your existing business. Well, those steps that I shared could also be a really great way to go out and add quality work that's in line
00:42:15
Speaker
with the kind of work that you wanna be taking on, the aesthetic that you wanna be creating, and the kind of client that you wanna be working with.
00:42:23
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I think every single one of those ideas, I mean, probably stuff that we've done in the past, you know, I mean, when Krista started her first business was wedding photography business, she built her own website, you know, and that's how we got I mean, that's how she built the design side of her business is people are like, Hey, who built your website? She's like, Well, I built my website, you know, and so it really was like, you know, one of maybe a piece of her portfolio that ended up generating a lot of income for us. And it was it was her own brand and website.
00:42:48
Speaker
So I definitely think maybe that, I would agree with you, probably something people aren't thinking about, you know, is how can I leverage that? And then, you know, going out and doing passion projects, I think there is this, well, they're not paying clients and will people care about that? I mean, I would compare it to like a style shoot for photographers. Like at the end of the day, I think clients, we think clients care about a lot of stuff that clients actually don't end up caring about, you know? Like when a client looks at a picture, for instance, that a photographer took,
00:43:16
Speaker
They care less about what did they charge for this image and what not, what camera did they use. They don't care about that stuff. They care about whether the image is awesome and it's the kind of work that could be done for them. I think I agree with a lot of those things. I would say that the beta tester idea is great, especially the more nuanced take on it that you have, which is maybe not going to free work right away.
00:43:40
Speaker
And I think that there maybe is a time and place in the very beginning for doing a project for free. But I think to a certain extent, maybe it's sort of a last resort. If there can be some sort of trade, some sort of skin in the game for the person you're doing work for, that's ideal. Even if, at the very least, it's like, hey, will you basically be an ambassador for me? In the sense that you'll give me a testimonial, you'll give that solid.
00:44:05
Speaker
a review, things I wouldn't do. I've seen people post in Facebook groups like, hey, I'm new. I'm just trying to build my client roster. I think if you're doing that, one-on-one asks are better because what you've just done is you broadcasted to future clients exactly where you are now. It's more information that you need. My point is I like all of what you just said. Hopefully, that helps people, especially as they're getting started. I think we've all been there at the beginning.
00:44:34
Speaker
And I would say it's like anything else with momentum where it's like riding a bike. Those first few pedals are hard, but once the gear starts spinning, it does a lot of work for you. Bonnie, thank you so much for taking the time to share your expertise with us.
Bonnie's Resources for Designers
00:44:49
Speaker
And like I said, we've known each other far too long for you not to have been on the podcast to date, so I'm glad we could fix that today. My guess is there's probably a lot of people wondering, okay, how can I find this community you're talking about? You had mentioned maybe a program for
00:45:03
Speaker
designers who are trying to dial a lot of these things in and probably even more, I'm sure you cover even more than that in your program, where can they find out more about that kind of stuff? Absolutely. If you are a designer and you're wanting to generate consistent income in your design business and that is something that is not quite clicking for you, I teach designers and I specialize in teaching graphic brand and web designers how to generate consistent income without adding more to their already overflowing plates
00:45:32
Speaker
through brand strategy. So if you want to join my paid community for designers, it is such an incredible community with just tons of tons of incredible people in our Facebook group and who are walking through the content at the brand strategy school. And you can actually go to my website, which is B is for Bonnie design.com. You can find all the details there.
00:45:52
Speaker
But if you are wanting to see if this is a method that I teach inside the brand strategy school that can meet you where you are, if you're like, okay, I'm curious, I'm not sure if I'm quite ready to, you know, like join another program right now, or, you know, access another course, I actually have a totally free Netflix style masterclass where I show you
00:46:12
Speaker
my method that I teach inside the brand strategy school. It's going to show you how you can dramatically increase your income as a designer without taking on more clients than you can handle. And if you just go to vs for bonnie design.com slash training, you can grab your seat to that free training, check it out, see if that would be a good fit for you. And as always, I really love getting to connect with people and point them in the direction that's going to serve them well. I mean, as you can tell, I have learned
00:46:38
Speaker
a thing or two over the years that I've been in business. And so if I can support someone and point them in the right direction, whatever that looks like, I am here for it.
Engagement and Connection with Bonnie
00:46:46
Speaker
So if you want to just reach out and say hi, or if something in today's conversation resonated with you, or you have a question and want to talk through it more, you can find me on Instagram. That's where I'm most active. You could just shoot me a DM and I'd love to chat with you. I'm at bonniejoymarie over on Instagram.
00:47:00
Speaker
Awesome. Well, for those of you who are listening while you're working out, running errands, driving, all of these links, of course, will be in the show notes. And thank you again, Bonnie. Really appreciate your time and expertise. Thanks so much for having me, Davey. This was so fun. Thanks for tuning in to the Brands That Book Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing and leaving a review in iTunes. For show notes and other resources, head on over to DaveyandCrista.com.
00:47:39
Speaker
you