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Episode 249 - The Importance of Building Connections
270 Plays7 days ago
In today's episode, I'm chatting with Dr Miriam Kirmayer about the importance of building connections. Miriam is a clinical psychologist, friendship expert and influential speaker on human connection and social support.
This episode is sponsored by BDOW!, formerly Sumo, the very best intelligent form and pop-up tool for your website. Deliver the right message, to the right visitor, using our advanced targeting rules. Whether you want to display a pop-up to only new visitors, or generate a unique discount code for those who subscribe to your list, you can get the job done using BDOW!
As always, links and resources can be found in the show notes. Check 'em out over at https://daveyandkrista.com/importance-building-connections-btb-249/. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review over at Apple Podcasts.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
frequency or repeated interactions, that actually is one of the most powerful predictors of friendship. You're listening to The Brands That Book Show, a podcast for creative entrepreneurs who want practical tips and strategies to build engaging brands and craft high converting websites. We're your hosts, Davey and Krista, co-founders of a brand and website design agency specializing in visual brand design and show it websites. You're listening to The Brands That Book Show.
Guest Introduction: Dr. Maryam Karmayar
00:00:28
Speaker
In today's episode, I'm chatting with Dr. Maryam Karmayar about the importance of building connections. Maryam is a clinical psychologist, friendship expert, and influential speaker on human connection and social support. We chat about the importance of connections, how to build connections at different stages in life, how to navigate difficult friendships, and so much more. Whether you work with a team or you're a solopreneur, I think you're gonna get a lot out of this episode. So let's dive in.
Sponsor Message: Badal
00:00:55
Speaker
Today's episode is sponsored by Badal, formerly Sumo, the very best intelligent form and pop-up tool for your website. Deliver the right message to the right visitor using our advanced targeting rules. Whether you want to display a pop-up to only new visitors or generate a unique discount code for those who subscribe to your list, you can get the job done using Badal.
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Speaker
One of my personal favorite features is the Show a Tab function. Basically, how this works is when visitors close the popup, it minimizes to the bottom of the page so that visitors can open it back up if they'd like, but it also remains out of their way while they browse. You can check out how that feature works over at the Davey and Krista website. Also, use the code Davey and Krista to save 20% on your subscription. Create an experience on your website using Badao.
Challenges of Adult Connections
00:01:49
Speaker
Well, I am really excited to have you here on the podcast today. And we are chatting about building friendships, especially building connections as an adult, which I think that I don't know about you, but I feel like it's getting more challenging. Maybe it's the older I get, or maybe it's just like the change in the times. So I would love for you to just kind of lead with your story and tell us how did you end up specializing in friendships and connections?
00:02:13
Speaker
Sure. Well, it's funny. There's always two different ways I can approach this question. There's the professional answer, and then there's this slightly more personal answer. So on the professional end of things, I'm a clinical psychologist by training. And just prior to graduate school, I had been involved in research looking at Peer relationships and bullying in children had done a lot of interesting work on lie-telling and the circumstances in which we might lie to the people that are close to us. And so I was always really interested and aware of the importance of friendship and the different ways that our behavior can impact our ability to stay close to people and to build new friendships.
00:02:52
Speaker
But as you are kind of alluding to, a lot of that, certainly research and a lot of the discussion around friendships centers on youth. And so when it came time to decide what I was going to set in graduate school, I was really interested in this question of, well, what about adult friendships?
00:03:07
Speaker
We know that they're important. There had been more and more talk about the consequences of loneliness and how valuable it is to have those close connections in your life. But there really was not a lot of information about how. How are we actually meeting new people? How do we build friendships? How do we navigate friendship breakups? And a lot of those questions that so many of us have, and there were just so few outlets to turn to for those answers. So that was on the professional end of things. Personally, though, I mean, when I look back, it's very clear to me the experiences that I've had that have led to this interest.
Personal Journey into Friendship Research
00:03:37
Speaker
ah Like a lot of the people that I'm talking to in my research and like a lot of the people that I'm supporting in my clinical practice, I too have certainly had my ups and downs in terms of finding my people and having to let go of connections that just no longer feel aligned or having external circumstances tear us apart and and how challenging that can be.
00:03:55
Speaker
And the piece that has my heart more and more, and especially right now, is really how we can better show up for the people in our lives, how we can support each other in a way that just feels incredibly meaningful, not only in terms of strengthening the closeness in that relationship, but also gets us to where we want to be, whether that's navigating a hardship in life or reaching a certain goal that we have personally or professionally. And so that is certainly informed by my own personal experience and and definitely where I'm headed in my professional work as well.
00:04:22
Speaker
Yeah, that's
Life Transitions and Relationship Dynamics
00:04:23
Speaker
so interesting. Do you see that there are just kind of like natural points in, I guess, like the journey of adulthood where people struggle more with building relationships? Like, is it when kids are added to the mix? Is it when they go through a major life transition? Tell me a little bit more about what you found in that.
00:04:38
Speaker
Yes, you're touching on something so important, which is exactly that. It tends to be in those moments of transition or change when our relationships can be impacted. And frankly, those are also the moments where they are often the most important. And so not surprisingly, people end up feeling lonely in those moments. And we know that loneliness can often lead to avoidance. And so we get stuck in this cycle of feeling disconnected.
00:05:02
Speaker
and not necessarily feeling equipped to step outside of our comfort zone and invite more connection into our life. And so one of those big transition points, thinking about the transition from childhood and adolescence and even emerging adulthood to really adulthood, not that we're fully fledged adults at the age of 26, but one of the things that we see is once we leave school, that tends to be one of those inflection points where it suddenly becomes more challenging. to meet new people, to meet like-minded people, to connect with peers, to stay connected to our friends. And so for many people, that ends up being the first moment, the first confrontation of, oh, this is not what I expected. I'm not used to this, and I don't know how I'm going to navigate this. And to your point, parenthood can also be one of those moments of
00:05:49
Speaker
Having children, expanding our families, and obviously we are short on time, and of course there's all sorts of other conflicts that can come up in that process alongside that yearning for more closeness and connection. And thinking about the work that you do, and the work that I do too, starting a new project, the decision to become an entrepreneur, starting a new position, leveling up and being promoted, being let go, those kinds of professional transitions can also profoundly impact our friendships and relationships as well.
00:06:18
Speaker
Yeah. That's so interesting. And I've definitely noticed that those different points that you have mentioned, like when I had my first child, I was at home so much and it felt like I couldn't go out and be with people cause he had to nap or it's like, I had such a short window. I feel like as my kids have gotten older, I've just naturally found other adult friendships. Was that like another like common occurrence that you've noticed too? As you move into something else, you have to work on finding new people.
00:06:43
Speaker
Absolutely. And and sometimes it's ah it's a function of the fact that your relationships have changed because of some other change in your life. And so you get to a point where you now have a little bit more time and capacity to take on new connections. And very often it's also because our needs change. So the idea that the friendships that we had when we were younger are necessarily the same ones that we will need or want later on.
00:07:05
Speaker
There's a lot of research and and personal experience to suggest that that isn't always true so as we grow and as we develop our connection needs can shift we want different types of relationships we want different types of energy we want different types of support and so. From my end a big part of being successful in building new friendships is being in touch with your own inner needs of what do I want from a friendship at this point in my life and What are the different types of friendships that I can benefit from because we can have different connections that fulfill those different needs It doesn't have to be that one person that needs every friendship need that we have
00:07:41
Speaker
Yeah, that almost feels like, I don't know if to me, it feels slightly selfish to think about a friend meeting different needs, but it makes total sense that like, you're going to have your friend friends, you're going to have your friends that are more compassionate that you can talk to when you're having a bad day. You're going to have friends that are more peers, which is what I've noticed. I have a lot of friends who are peers in the business world because they understand what I'm talking about and what my needs are and like the goals that I have. Whereas a friend who is maybe home with her kids all day might not understand what it means when I say I'm frustrated building my mailing list.
00:08:10
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I am not in the business of convincing people that we should collect connections. I think there's a lot of noise out there that is pressuring us to feel as though we need more friends and larger social circles and networks. And that that's the sign of social success. And that's not what I'm advocating for. ah It's certainly not about the number. It's about being in touch with the different needs that you have and recognizing that different people will be in a position to share that with you. And likewise, we have different things to offer the different people in our lives. And some of us are really great compassionate listeners and others are great at giving targeted advice and relating about some of these challenges. So yes, I fully agree with what you're saying. Yeah.
Post-Pandemic Connection Awareness
00:08:53
Speaker
Do you feel like the shifts after like pre pandemic and after post pandemic has also made a big impact on the way that we view our relationships with our peers?
00:09:02
Speaker
Yeah, one of the, I hesitate to use this word always, but one of the silver linings of the challenges that so many of us have gone through is that I've certainly noticed a shift in how willing we are to be open about feelings of loneliness and disconnection, that we recognize that that is in many ways a universal experience, that it's one of those feelings that can carry with it a lot of shame.
00:09:26
Speaker
And we can all benefit from doing away with some of that shame. And one of the ways out of that is by recognizing that we are not alone in those feelings. And so obviously, at a number of people were put in positions where they weren't able to connect with their family members, with their friends, with their colleagues and communities in the way that they were accustomed to and the way that they really needed, both because of the physical distance and of course, and especially the emotional distance in terms of not knowing how to have those difficult conversations about Different boundaries and expectations and challenges and so people have become more aware not only of the importance of connection but willing to say yeah you know what this is hard and I struggle with this too and it's often in those moments of disclosure that we're able to not only feel less shame but connect with others more deeply and authentically.
Mental Health and Relationship Quality
00:10:12
Speaker
So that is one of the positive shifts, certainly. The challenges are plentiful and certainly as a therapist, I think a lot about the mental health implications of the struggles that so many people have gone through and how we know that mental health is so closely related to our relationships in terms of our ability to initiate and show up in a way that's going to again, lead to those close, meaningful, authentic connections.
00:10:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think that everything that you're going through just feels so much worse when you're in it alone, as opposed to when you're with friends who can kind of show you what the reality is. And so yeah, I think that's just such a good point of being aware of that and realizing
Vulnerability in Friendships
00:10:49
Speaker
our needs. Do you feel like vulnerability is vital to building intense, like deep relationships? Or do you feel like you can also get away with more surface level relationships?
00:10:58
Speaker
Yeah, oh I love that question. So it's interesting because I was about to say one thing and then you added on a little bit of context. And so I will say another. I think you are right in that. Yes, it is required for close, deep, meaningful relationships. That one of the things that separates our friendships from our acquaintanceships is the level of platonic intimacy that's there. that we share things, information, details, experiences with our friends that we would not necessarily share with a stranger or with an acquaintance. And one of the primary ways that we build that closeness and that intimacy is through self-disclosure, by being vulnerable, by sharing what's on our hearts, what's on our minds, what we're struggling with, on the other hand, what we are hoping for and planning for and dreaming for. And so I do think that that is very much at the heart of close, fulfilling reciprocal relationships.
00:11:45
Speaker
The little asterisks that I want to put there is that different friendships can live and survive off different levels of vulnerability, meaning we can have, again, those different types of connections in our lives, and some of those are going to inherently be less intimate and vulnerable, and that's okay. We might have the friend that we connect with over the struggles of building a mailing list, right? Or the challenges of building a business and thriving in a digital world. and There's a certain level of vulnerability in that, but that might be very different and feel different from the type of vulnerability that we might show in another relationship where we are opening up about a relationship challenge that's going on in our marriage or in our families or a parenting struggle that we're having. So it depends. It really does depend. The big takeaway is what is the type of connection that that you are looking for? What's being given back?
00:12:37
Speaker
Do you meaning it's difficult if you are in a place where you are so vulnerable and so disclosing and that's not being reciprocated that can often lead to feelings of ah balance and friendships which we know is not all that helpful or healthy.
00:12:50
Speaker
So how do you figure out what somebody else wants? Do you think that you have to have like that conversation with them that's like, I'm pursuing you as a deep intimate friend, like more subtle than that? Oh, such a good question. So I'm a big fan of testing the waters. As much as I preach the the merits and value of vulnerability, I am not advocating for again, showing up and then sharing your deepest darkest secrets day one and assuming that that is a pathway to close sustainable friendships. I know that there are a lot of meaningful hard decks out there or lists of questions that you can ask your friends or even your partner as a way to generate feelings of intimacy and closeness. And while I think there's so much value in those types of conversations and exchanges that also can't be rushed and doing that all in one shot right up front.
00:13:35
Speaker
isn't necessarily the pathway to the healthy type of vulnerability. And so from my end and and my experience both personally and professionally, it really is a matter of going slow because that is how you communicate. I am interested in getting to know you more and I want you to get to know me and I am learning in the process the types of conversations that we can connect over and how you respond to my disclosures. And does this feel safe? And do I want to keep going? We might get to a certain level of vulnerability and decide, you know what, at this moment in time or with this particular person or in this relationship right now, this feels safe. This is what I'm comfortable with. And you don't always have to go deeper and deeper and deeper.
00:14:13
Speaker
And I do think there's a lot of pressure nowadays to do that. So again, coming back to this idea of self-reflection and introspection, being in touch with how does it feel when I share this and what is it being met with? At the same time, you are also touching on something so valuable, which is that we tend to be very
Navigating Deeper Friendships
00:14:30
Speaker
guarded when it comes to talking about our friendships with our friends. And we don't have those same kinds of boundaries always in romantic relationships.
00:14:40
Speaker
Not to say that it's comfortable to say to a potential partner, hey, I'm looking for something serious. That feels uncomfortable. But we recognize that at some point that conversation is likely going to be had. When it comes to our friendships, we don't necessarily have the idea or the norm that we can say to somebody, I'm looking for new friends. I'm looking for new friends that I can do this activity with, that I can co-work with, that I can get deep with and and have these real conversations. And I'd love to for that to be you.
00:15:09
Speaker
and What I have found is that being on the receiving end of that, especially when you've done some of that testing the waters bit, feels so good. It's so validating, it's so disarming, and it's such an invitation to say, you know what, me too, because people out there are likewise hungry for a connection. Yeah, that feels so like it takes so much courage to do that.
00:15:31
Speaker
does it ever Yeah, I feel like I'd really have to like work up to being able to have that like intentional conversation with somebody about like wanting a deeper relationship. Do you think it's also okay to just like be more subtle and just ask them to get together with you more and share more and lean on them that way instead of like, okay, well, I see you nodding. Not everybody can see you nodding.
00:15:51
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, to me, that's part of the testing the waters. You can likewise communicate to somebody, hey, I'm really enjoying our conversations and I value you and I want to get to know you and and become friends by saying exactly that. You know what? We connected with at this networking event this evening. I would love to continue this conversation. I really enjoyed connecting with you. Would you be open to a coffee date? Would you be open to a virtual co-working date? That is one way to take your relationship a step further.
00:16:18
Speaker
partly by sharing, hey, I actually really like talking with you, and also because you're expanding the context of that friendship. Now it's not only a connection that you see in one specific environment. You are moving it to a second location, whether that's in person or in the digital space, and and that is a valuable step in and of itself.
00:16:38
Speaker
Yeah, okay, that's really good to know. um What are some other ways that people can meet new friends or build those relationships, especially if they maybe have a really busy life and they're not able to get out to as many things?
00:16:50
Speaker
Absolutely. So there's a few different ways to approach this. My most common advice that I give is to pursue some sort of an activity, an aligned activity, an activity or an experience that is aligned with your interests, with your needs, with your values, because we know that especially in today's digital world, it is hard to meet new people.
00:17:11
Speaker
And when we are looking to expand our social circle, very often we need to step outside of our existing social circle and we need to try something new. And so whether that's a hobby or an activity that you've always been interested in pursuing, I know for me, I have had it on my list for more than a decade, which is embarrassing to say out loud to do an improv class. And I just signed up and it starts in four weeks and I cannot wait. And so that is one example of the kind of thing that we can do to try something new. And yes, of course that feels scary, but why that's so helpful is because you will undoubtedly meet new people.
00:17:48
Speaker
And being in a situation where you have another reason to be there, to learn the skill, to to pursue a hobby or an interest, it takes the pressure off having to make friends, having to approach someone. Even if you don't end up leaving that experience with a new friend, you can still feel good about spending your time in that way.
00:18:06
Speaker
And when time feels like such a precious resource, we really want to be mindful of how we are spending that and who we are spending that with. So pursue an activity, whether it's a personal interest or something professional, right? Again, ah attending ah a co-working space so that you're not only working home alone in front of a screen. that Join a networking group. Join a book club. There's all sorts of things that we can do.
00:18:29
Speaker
The other advice that I often give is to, if you aren't ready to step outside of your social circle, to use your social circle. Leverage it. Let people know either that you're looking to deepen your connections. Is there somebody that you know that you can set up that lunch date with? Or let them know that you're looking to meet new people. And can they introduce you to someone new?
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah, okay. Those are really good tips.
Activities and Friendship Building
00:18:49
Speaker
I feel like a lot of friendships come out of exercise classes too. I think it is, like you said, an activity where you're side by side maybe doing something that's new and challenging for you and you just naturally talk to the people around you. I can define that.
00:19:02
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Well, and I'm glad that you bring that up because there's so much value in having that shared experience and even shared challenge to a certain extent. You're right that that can fast track those feelings of closeness of, wow, we are in this together. This is a challenge and we are going to make it through this boot camp class, right? And we also want to be very mindful of choosing activities that allow for interaction. meaning attending the a yoga class is helpful if you are going to be comfortable chatting with someone in the locker room afterwards. If you are not the kind of person who likes to strike up conversation in an unstructured way, that is not the place where you are going to meet friends. You are going to want to choose an activity where you can actually partner up with someone for an improv scene, for a team sport, for a volunteering initiative where the activity will facilitate the conversation for you.
00:19:50
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. My husband has been playing pickup soccer with a group of guys where we live and he's met so many friends that way. Amazing. Also, interestingly, maybe this is not interesting to you, but we used to live in a more suburban area where it was like suburbs, the DCE suburbs. And when we moved to a small town, I feel like we grew our relationships so much faster and so much deeper because you see the same people at school and at practices and at church. And so,
00:20:15
Speaker
I feel like our social calendar is so much busier here than it ever was in this like more populated area because it feels like people are more intentional and maybe that's just because there aren't as many people around. So this is interesting to me because I think it aligns with a lot of what we know. The first piece being what you are hinting at, which is that frequency or repeated interactions, that actually is one of the most powerful predictors of friendship, that seeing somebody one time at an event, even if you have a connection, it's a lot harder to turn that connection into a friend. Whereas when you know that there's going to be a certain rhythm, when you've had repeated interactions and you can look forward to your next,
00:20:53
Speaker
it's already on the calendar, you are much more likely to become friends. So so to me, that's a big part of of what ends up happening, whether that's in rural or you know more densely populated areas. yes third're And there can be certainly cultural differences when it comes to friendship and connection, but also just environmental variables that influence how willing and able people are to connect. And sometimes there can just be a lot less noise, frankly.
00:21:19
Speaker
in in places that are less busy and hectic. And sometimes the noise gets in the way of true connection and conversation. That makes sense.
Conflict as Growth in Friendships
00:21:28
Speaker
Okay. So I've heard you talk before about managing conflict in relationships and friendships. So that's such an interesting topic to me because I feel like in my history, I feel like it's easier to just like avoid conflict with friends and maybe not get together with them as much or like let those relationships die. Whereas in my marriage, because we're more united, we kind of have to work things out. Can you speak a little bit more about managing conflict within friendships?
00:21:53
Speaker
yeah so There are two parts to this. The first is this cognitive shift that we need to make in terms of the way that we think about conflict in friendship. And the second is the behavioral piece. How are we actually navigating conflict? On the cognitive side of things, one of the mindset shifts that can be very helpful is recognizing that we do not need to be in friendships that are immune to conflict.
00:22:19
Speaker
that we often see conflict and friendships as something that we should turn away from, that we should run from, that it's a sign that there's something wrong with that friendship, or that it's not worth navigating or putting effort into. because Because there aren't these same certainly societal norms and expectations, but because there also aren't these external things keeping us together. And so wouldn't it be easier to just do that slow fade out or just shift our attention to other people that we aren't in conflict with?
00:22:45
Speaker
What I have found to be true both again in terms of my own research, the resources out there and in working with other people and and frankly even going through conflict in my own friendships is that there is value in turning towards conflict and turning toward our friend in moments of conflict.
00:23:04
Speaker
that it turns out the closest friendships, the ones that are most likely to succeed and stand the test of time, are not those in which there hasn't been any challenge or conflict. It's those in which there have been moments of conflict, but there's this shared willingness to navigate it together.
00:23:24
Speaker
Because in doing so, not only do you learn more about each other's perspectives and not only do you practice some of those social skills and conversational skills that are going to benefit you in the long run, um it also sends a very clear message of I care about you and I care about this relationship and it's important enough to me that I'm willing to do the hard thing.
00:23:44
Speaker
And so as difficult as it may be, my advice is often to think about what would it be like to turn toward this friend in that moment? What would it sound like? What would it feel like to share what's on my mind, to share what I'm struggling with, to ask for what it is that I need? And how might that benefit your friendship in the long run as opposed to staying silent and deciding to just, I'm doing air quotes here, suck it up. right the thing that a lot of us decide to do, or feeling as though we're cutting our losses and let me just go invest in a new friendship, whether that's building a new friendship from the ground up, which of course is effortful in and of itself, or just turning toward another friend. Because what ends up happening is if that's our default position in moments of conflict, that is going to come up in another friendship. And how many times are you going to go through that pattern of conflict and avoidance before you get to a point where you feel alone?
00:24:40
Speaker
Yeah, that is such a great point. I do feel like it's when you have that like good, hard to heart with a friend over the struggles that you're having and maybe a good cry that you just feel so much closer. Do you feel like you've seen a shift in that as time has gone? Do you think people are more likely to just ghost somebody than they were in the past where, I don't know, I guess when people lived in like smaller tight knit communities, you couldn't really avoid the person that you didn't like were having a disagreement with. You had to talk to each other other and figure it out.
00:25:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really interesting nuanced point because in some ways it is easier to cut ties and to ghost people as you're suggesting, whether that's in person or online. We do have access to more people and so with that can come the temptation of turning toward that strategy. We live in larger cities and communities, many of us, and there's the very real reality that you might not bump into each other.
00:25:30
Speaker
At the same time, you might. and Are you prepared for what that is going to be like? and so This is a bit of a side conversation that we can certainly have now or at a later date, but there are very few things when it comes to friendships that I so strongly advocate against. that There's a lot of nuance. There's a lot of it depends. You'll hear me say that a lot.
00:25:50
Speaker
Very rarely will I use that language when it comes to ghosting, that we think that is the helpful strategy to adopt because it's the easiest one. And the research on this is very clear that ghosting does not benefit the person being ghosted or the person doing the ghosting, that it is far less effective and helpful and healthy than we wish it was.
00:26:10
Speaker
So that's just one little caveat.
The Rise of Friendship Therapy
00:26:13
Speaker
I do think, though, the other side of this that is changing, and this is, again, that silver lining piece, I have been researching friendship and working clinically in terms of providing friendship therapy and and doing a lot of speaking and writing and consulting on this topic for well over a decade now and the conversations evolving.
00:26:31
Speaker
And I see this very clearly. People are more willing to not only talk about their experiences of loneliness, but to recognize the value of investing in their platonic connections and friendships. And that means, yes, of course, putting time and energy into building new friendships and thinking about how can I do that? But it also means thinking more deeply about how can I navigate these moments of conflict? And so anecdotally, I can share that I have seen requests for friendship therapy skyrocket.
00:26:58
Speaker
in the last few years let alone months and i mean at this point in my career i now am focusing more on speaking and be able to reach people in that way as opposed to offering one on one.
00:27:11
Speaker
counseling support or friendship therapy, but I'm always moved to hear this and to see this, that people are recognizing there is so much value in investing in these relationships that we have overlooked for so long, that we have taken for granted in various ways, or have just assumed that there's nothing we can do to stay connected or to stay close. And and I love that that expectation is being revisited by so many people.
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah, that is really good news to hear. so okay So what if a relationship really does need to end? What if there are like toxic portions of it or people just really aren't getting along or it's making you feel really uncomfortable?
Ending Friendships Respectfully
00:27:48
Speaker
What is the best way to approach that since ghosting clearly is not the answer.
00:27:51
Speaker
Yeah, no, definitely don't recommend ghosting with the exception of a few select cases. So this is an important question because as much as I'm advocating again for openness and honesty and vulnerability and then facing conflict in a much more assertive way, there's a difference between navigating the ups and downs, the inevitable ups and downs of friendships and working together to move through conflicts in a really healthy way. versus being in a relationship that is characterized by chronic conflict. And so I certainly want to be very mindful of the messaging that we share on that where if you are in a friendship that is just riddled with conflict on a you know regular basis, there's likely something else going on. And I never want people to feel as though they have to.
00:28:40
Speaker
stay in their friendships, that we should feel very much as though we have the ability to choose on an ongoing basis whether or not we want to stay connected. And that's frankly why our friendships are so powerful is because we are choosing our friends and our friends are continually choosing to stay involved in our lives. And so as long as we are both in touch with that choice, it just feels so satisfying to have these people in our lives who know us and who are seeing us evolve and who still want to be connected to us. How special is that?
00:29:08
Speaker
So yes, there are situations where we no longer want to make that choice, where we no longer feel like we can make that choice. And sometimes it is because there's been ongoing conflict that has escalated to a transgression now, where there's just a violation of respect and trust and loyalty and all of those things that we need. Frankly,
00:29:25
Speaker
More often than not, friendships end because of this gradual growing apart. And you can't even necessarily pinpoint one thing of, oh, well, my friends said this one thing that just totally changed the way I think about them. Or there has been such an inherent imbalance in our relationship that it no longer feels like a friendship and I don't want to stay connected. Does that happen? Yes. But more often, it's this gradual growing apart of we just no longer connect the way we used to. And I'm not sure we fit into each other's lives in a way that feels good and true and sustainable.
00:29:55
Speaker
And in those moments, it's okay to choose to let go. How we do that depends, right? so back to that that That magic statement, it depends. There are friendships where having that open and honest conversation as uncomfortable and vulnerable as that may be, where that is actually helpful. Where we can say, I am so grateful that you have been in my life and this relationship has meant so much to me.
00:30:22
Speaker
And I know that we are both feeling a bit of this distance. And I want you to know that I don't take this decision lightly. And i' I'm just not quite sure that we are able to be friends in the way that we have been for so long. And I know that might be hurtful to hear. And I know that's hurtful for me to to accept, but that's the reality of where we're at. What is this like for you? And then you can have a bit of that exchange. And why that's so helpful is because it it honors what you did share.
00:30:49
Speaker
It honors those memories. It leaves you both in a place where you continue to feel seen by the other person. And the truth is, whether you're in a big city or a small town, there's a good chance you have mutual friends. There's a good chance you'll stay connected in some peripheral way. So those kinds of conversations can minimize the opportunities for discomfort later on or the uncertainty of what is it going to be like when we see each other.
00:31:15
Speaker
For other people though, this gradual distancing and growing apart, that is a helpful strategy in terms of withdrawing effort. But what I always say is that works well until it doesn't, meaning that works very well when both people are on the same page, where it's clear that this friendship has run its course and you are willing to just gradually withdraw your level of involvement. It really does not work well when one person is checked out of this friendship and the other is hungry and motivated to stay connected and keeps expressing these bids for connection and these the offers of plans, it does not work well in those cases. And very often, even though you try to avoid having the conversation, the conversation ends up being necessary in some capacity. Yeah. That's such a good point. And that's like, yeah, there's those drastic ways that a friendship can end and then gradual. And when nobody's at fault, like that's okay too. Okay. Last question for you.
Workplace Friendships and Professional Boundaries
00:32:05
Speaker
How do you see the future of building and maintaining friendships as the business landscapes continues to evolve?
00:32:11
Speaker
o Well, yeah, this is an an interesting way to end off her conversation because I think it actually ties in a lot with the direction that I'm going in in my own work and in my own relationships that we for a number of years, there has been this separation between personal, professional, and the expectation at both the organizational level and at the individual employee level that having friends at work is not necessarily something that we are all that interested in, and that it's a bit of a distraction, if anything. Maybe it's a nice to have, but that it's it's a distraction from
00:32:46
Speaker
their ability to be productive and engaged and creative and it turns out that all of those expectations that again individuals and organizations had and still have to some extent are just not true that the research is crystal clear that having close connections.
00:33:04
Speaker
at work whether that's with our colleagues with our managers with our leaders with our clients with our professional network that those relationships are a source not only of resilience but of success that when we feel connected and more than that when we actually have a friend when we have a best friend and that's language that's been used in research when we have a best friend at work.
00:33:24
Speaker
We are seven times more productive. We are more engaged. We are more creative and innovative. We are more successful. We are more likely to be promoted. Basically every single measure that both individuals and employees or employers would care about is boosted by having friends at work. And so partly I'm really excited about this shift in the conversation, this recognition that it's helpful to have those relationships at work.
00:33:49
Speaker
I think people are really willing to revisit not only those ideas but how we are then building in moments of connection into our lives as entrepreneurs a solo entrepreneurs how we are creating opportunities for connection and collaboration amongst our teams and recognizing that the separation between personal professional is maybe a little bit outdated. Now, that's not to say it should be boundary-less. The relationships that we have at work, the friendships that we have at work can certainly differ from the friendships that we have outside of work, but they are no less valuable. And so to me, there's just such a clear connection. And the reality is also, for the majority of adults, work is the place where we meet our friends. It is essentially the replacement for school.
00:34:30
Speaker
That is the place where we spend most of our time. That's where we are able to get in those repeated interactions. That's where we are able to have those moments of challenge that we can navigate together and collaborate on and come out feeling closer for it. So that is just a and ah space that I'm really interested in and passionate about working in. And that's partly why I have shifted, as I said, my attention to focusing more on speaking and consulting to help individuals and teams and organizations answer these questions. So well how are we creating opportunities for connection in a healthy professional context? That's really good to know because my whole team that I work with, they all feel like friends and family, like my assistant and I work out together and we live near each other and we hang out. And when one of our team members recently went to a different position, we all cried because we just loved her so much. So I'm glad that they're, that's okay to have that like closeness because we definitely do on our team.
00:35:25
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. And I'm sure you've read the benefits of that in so many ways. And you know for people who are listening who don't have that, there are lots of different ways to have that. And it's often a matter of figuring out again, what do I want and who's in my environment that I can create a connection with. And it might not be the ideal. I talk a lot about the discrepancy between your real and ideal relationships and how that can be a source of distress, but it can also be a compass. If you can ask yourself, what do I want? Then you are able to ideally move the needle toward that. And so it can start with having just one person at work or one connection that you meet with on a more regular basis to get a little bit of connection and mentorship, perhaps, and support. And just having that one person can make all difference as well.
00:36:13
Speaker
Yeah, it definitely makes me feel a lot less alone as you go about your work every day. So, yeah. Well, this was such a good conversation. If people are interested in learning more about you and what you offer, where can they find you? Sure. Oh my gosh. Well, I'd love to stay connected. That's probably not a surprise to anyone listening that I'm very passionate about this topic. You are welcome to connect with me, of course, online. MiriamKurmeyer.com is my website and I have lots of free resources available there.
00:36:40
Speaker
I also have courses on adult friendship and connection, whether it's making friends, navigating friendship breakups, and all of the stuff that we talked about today. And I also am online, primarily on Instagram and LinkedIn at Miriam Kurmar. Yeah. Well, thank you again for being here with me today. Thank you for having me. This was such a great conversation.
00:36:59
Speaker
Thanks for tuning into the Brands at Book Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, and sharing this episode with others. For show notes and other resources, head on over to DavianKrista.com.