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E32: Hard Candy (Review and Song Ranking) Part I
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Eric, Chris, and Geoff are joined by "Hard Brent" and "Bris-Vegas" Rob to discuss all things about the Crows 4th studio album...HARD CANDY.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Theme
Guest Introduction and Cookie Chat
00:00:16
Speaker
Welcome to Sullivan Street, where, hey, we got the hard candy episode. Sit back, right, enjoy some of that hard candy. I am here with Chris Miggs. Chris, good afternoon.
00:00:26
Speaker
Good afternoon. i'm I'm not enjoying hard candy, but I am enjoying... um Girl Scout s'mores cookies. Nice. oh my My Girl Scout cookies arrived um this week.
Memories and Music Discussion
00:00:38
Speaker
And I can actually relate this to the podcast because I bought them from the daughter of a friend of mine from law school who went to see the Crows with me at one point when we were in law school together. I think we went to the the Bowery Ballroom show together, 2008 one.
00:00:52
Speaker
um So, yes, ah that that's what I'll be enjoying. That's my the sweets that'll that'll take me back. um Not that although not that far back. They've only had those cookies for like three or four years. I think like five years they've had the Girl Scout cookies, the ah the s'mores ones.
00:01:06
Speaker
But they're delicious. So um that's my high.
Rumors of Summer Tour
00:01:09
Speaker
I recommend this album. And I also recommend those Girl Scout cookies. That's to all my listeners. um The other thing I'll say since we last talked, Eric.
00:01:18
Speaker
There are rumors that the...
Album Review and Guest Participation
00:01:21
Speaker
We all knew, I think, knew the band was going on tour this summer, but the rumor is that they'll be going on tour with the Gaslight Anthem, which would be literally my first and second favorite bands going on tour. I'm excited. I'm jacked.
00:01:31
Speaker
But I'm also just excited to talk about Hard Candy and maybe some songs... off this album that they haven't played on tour that maybe they should get on and do that this summer if they go on tour theoretically absolutely and you know and whenever i think of hard candy with this maybe it's because of the way adam's lyrics are but i think of the lemon sour hard candy right because it makes the sweet and the sour anyway we'll talk that in a little bit we also have since we're doing an album review and the song ranking we as usual have jeff harkness jeff welcome back to the podcast Always, always happy to to be here, everybody.
00:02:04
Speaker
I'm excited. you Yeah, hard candy. Yeah, we need your history. This was all like a one that a lot of people wanted to join because it's, I don't know, in some ways, one of their more interesting albums and certainly maybe ah demarcation point of the band as well.
00:02:18
Speaker
We have two guests, two listeners of the podcast who said, we want to talk about hard candy. And I said, okay, let's do this. ah First, we will say hi to Brent. Brent, welcome to the podcast.
Personal Fan Stories
00:02:29
Speaker
And you're coming in from Georgia, is that correct?
00:02:31
Speaker
That's right. Thanks so much for having me. I've really enjoyed the podcast, particularly the the episode with David Lowery. Man, that was crazy, all the information he provided. Yeah, that was fun. we I definitely would like to talk to some of the other producers. We're still trying for that ah yeah in the future.
00:02:46
Speaker
So just since you're first time on the podcast, just answer ah two questions if you can. One, like, how did you become like a big Counting Crows fan? And then two, what's your ah memory, earliest memory with Hard Candy, the album, maybe buying it or whatever?
00:03:01
Speaker
Yeah, so I was in from the beginning. was born in 1985, I was eight years old when August and Everything After it came out, and it was my favorite album. and I have a daughter now that's eight, and I can't imagine her just sitting around listening to an album like August and Everything After. i probably didn't really understand what was going on with a lot of the lyrics, but the the first four albums of Counting Crows, I was totally in and listened those four albums just incessantly.
00:03:27
Speaker
um I remember for the third album, This Desert Life, I had listened to a ton of the songs, live recordings before it came out. And I decided for ah for ah Hard Candy that I would take a different approach. I just disconnected entirely and just waited until the album came out and listened to it. And I got it pre-ordered.
00:03:44
Speaker
And it showed up like a week late. it was driving me crazy. um But it came out in the summer that I was 16 years old. And I think like a lot of things, when something hits you when you're that age, it's kind of the perfect time to really to really soak it up.
00:03:55
Speaker
um So a really important album for me. That's great. Fantastic. And Rob, I don't know. Right. i almost right You're from England originally. You live in Australia
Transition from Hip Hop to Rock
00:04:04
Speaker
now. I want to call you like Bris Vegas, Rob, because you're living in Brisbane, Australia now. But Rob, welcome to the podcast.
00:04:10
Speaker
Thanks for having me. And yeah, what same questions for you. When did you become a Crows fan and earliest memories with Hard Candy? So those two things align for me. um When I was younger, I was very much a little hip hop head.
00:04:26
Speaker
I used to love hip hop music. That was it. There was no such thing as any other music. um And I have ah an amazing friend who I'm still really good friends with called Paul, who um we worked together and he introduced me to Counting Crows. He was like,
00:04:43
Speaker
listen to this band and that was it um hook line and sinker from that moment so I went out the day he introduced me to Counting Crows pretty much and purchased Hard Candy because that was the album that had been released that was the one that was there and I was like okay Here we are. And that was my sort of pathway to to glory, if you like, to all of this beautiful music that i've missed out on. um it It really changed how I sort of listened to music, opened my eyes a little bit more and sort of um grew into this love of, you know, other bands, Matchbox 20, Fire for Fight and a lot of other bands that sort of sit in that kind of group.
00:05:22
Speaker
But Hard Candy is my entry to Counting Crows, hence why ah wanted to be here. Great. I love hearing when people enter at certain, at other times besides, you know, the original. I always liked that, right? We had Zephyr and didn't he become a fan around somewhere in Wonderland or something? I have to go back to that. Yeah, something like that, yeah.
00:05:42
Speaker
Yeah. so Okay, fantastic.
Album Release and Sales
00:05:44
Speaker
So we we got a lot to talk about today. We're going to go through our song, the official song rankings, etc. But first, we let's just a little bit of background on the album was released July 2022.
00:05:57
Speaker
twenty twenty two ah Sorry, 2020, 2002. Sorry. So, wow, we were almost up to the 25th anniversary of this album, right? If my math suits me correctly, which kind of shocks me.
00:06:09
Speaker
This is kind of the definitely it's a demarcation point of the band. And I say that and I guess Jeff will get into this a little more. I say that for two reasons. One.
00:06:21
Speaker
um It's the end of the every three year release. And if I did that math correctly, right? think they released in 95, what was it? 95, 98, 2000, or no, doing the math.
00:06:37
Speaker
93, 96, 99, 2002. year album cycle, which was kind of an roughly the norm for big big bands in that era. Yeah. And then, of course, they don't release another record of originals until 2008. Yeah, so six years. So they doubled.
00:06:53
Speaker
Yeah.
Band Member Changes
00:06:54
Speaker
um This is also the last album where both Matt Malley and Ben Mize were in the band. Ben Mize, sorry, that were in the band. Is this the first one? I know Emi's thing is is is kind of up and down, but is this the first one that he's listed?
00:07:09
Speaker
in the notes as being an official man member, right? I think he joined right after Desert Life was that's was recorded, even though he's in that even though he's in those photos and everything. I think this is the first album where
Hidden Tracks and Variations
00:07:20
Speaker
he's officially member. I could be wrong about that. it's um Yeah, so then and then we'll talk about all these, but the other things about the release...
00:07:29
Speaker
is one, it topped out at number five in the sales, but it was the first one that did not go platinum. ah so so that But it still went gold, topped out at number five.
00:07:40
Speaker
The songs, i just what I just think this is a demarcation too. I looked at who wrote the songs, and even though there's a lot of tracks right there, we're gonna look at 14 tracks today. Nine of the 14 were written just by Adam, if you go buying credits.
00:07:55
Speaker
And then the other five were kind of interesting. where the only real group one is Richard Manuel's Dead, where five of the band members, no ah ah no Bryson and no Ben, but everybody else gets a songwriting credit there.
00:08:12
Speaker
ah Hard Candy, Adam, Dan, and Charlie, ah Miami. So anyway, Charlie comes up in all of them. In Miami is Adam, Emmy, and Charlie. And then Why Should You Come When I Call Adam and Charlie. So Emmy getting two songwriting credits here.
00:08:26
Speaker
with Miami, which is kind of funny, right? Because Miami Live, and he plays a prominent role in that song. And he also gets songwriting and credit for Manual. And I think that's interesting because I don't think he had a Crow songwriting credit before this album. So the only other thing I kind of want to say before moving to Jeff is about the hidden tracks, which of course there's the big yellow taxi. You can talk a little bit more about that and the history of maybe when Vanessa Carlton was added. I'm not even sure about that, right? Released as a non-Vanessa cut at first and then a Vanessa cut. And I think that it was listed as a non-hitted track.
00:09:00
Speaker
But then the imp and then the imports had hidden tracks for white stallions and you ain't going nowhere. For example, in the UK release. Now I had a fight with one of my crows friends, Dan, cause he didn't realize cause I said I had to go through. Cause remember this is like internet shopping. 2002 was not a big of a deal.
00:09:20
Speaker
And I found out somehow that Japan had a third bonus track, which was start again, that released later in underwater sunshine. But I had to go through like my friend's ex-girlfriend who was living in Japan. And another guy's like, why why are you contacting his ex-girlfriend? what What are you doing? I'm like, no, I need the hard candy extra track. And he's like, no, you're lying because the hard candy, you can go to the UK for the same track. So I had to tell him that Start Again was only available in Japan. See, I'm hurting relationships, et cetera. That's the most amazing fight I've ever heard, Eric.
00:09:53
Speaker
That's incredible. That's amazing. And I really feel like it explains our friendship. right there Because it's also, this was a very hard, difficult period because it was a bunch of the the singles on this record had B-sides that had, but there were, where there were like three, yeah there's like three different versions of Richard Manuel is dead and they all have different B-sides.
00:10:15
Speaker
And you're trying to get them from the UK. This was like the peak of that era. Because we all knew and we're all like, how do I get? I know I can get this. It's like that period of my life I feel like I remember. Before everyone just ripped things and you were like, it'll be on the
Music Journalist Perspectives
00:10:31
Speaker
internet in 10 seconds. It's going to be fine. do not need to $55 to Japan get one more song.
00:10:36
Speaker
to get one more song Yeah, so this girl, God bless her, she went to some store you know and sent it to me, even though she didn't know me and she had broken up with the guy already. All for Start Again. That got released in under Underwater Sunshine anyway.
00:10:48
Speaker
And I didn't even know what Start Again was. i thought it was a new song by them, not a cover. So, Jeff, let's go to you for any more history that I might have missed, etc. Sure. All right. So...
00:10:59
Speaker
Fourth County Crows record. I'm excited to talk about Hard Candy. This is my favorite County Crows record. i don't think it's their best record, but it's my personal favorite County Crows record. And I'm super excited ah to ah talk about it.
00:11:14
Speaker
I remember when I first ah heard this album, I was working as a music journalist at that time. And so I was given that I did review the album and publish a review of it.
00:11:25
Speaker
But at the time, the labels would send us the CDs and usually we'd get them in advance. But this album, I was so excited. I was such a big Counting Crows fan that i had I was already all over LimeWire and had downloaded all of the tracks like separately on LimeWire, but tried to cobble it together. But it was interesting because I didn't hear it in sequential order.
00:11:46
Speaker
And I didn't know, like, OK, you know, you didn't always know of like, is this actually ah song from the album? Or, you know, sometimes it would be like the wrong thing. So. it was um it was I was so excited when this album came out because I i was a huge County Crows fan at the time.
00:12:02
Speaker
And um to me, especially like you know hearing some of those tracks for the ah first time, like Hard Candy, it was just so exciting that a band ah that was this far into their career and that I had loved so much was releasing new music that was as good as anything they had ever done. And so I just remember being so excited by this album when it came out because I just um Loved it.
Recording Insights
00:12:27
Speaker
right so Did you have to score the album in your review, Jeff? ah i don't think I don't think we did stars or anything like four out of five. But I did, um I you know said that it was the band's fourth home run in a row because I was a fan. But yeah, I gave it ah definitely a very positive review and um and said that you know basically this is a a band that was always divisive, but um you know,
00:12:53
Speaker
Duritz was the real deal and they had delivered one more time. So um like the first three albums, it was recorded in a house in the Hollywood Hills. There was um one key difference, though, that in the with the first three records, they had ah basically compartmentalized the recording process and touring. So they you know took time off, they recorded their album, their second album, and then they took it out on tour.
00:13:17
Speaker
With Hard Candy, they didn't do that. They never really never stopped touring. So they would take a few weeks off and record. They would go out on the road and, you know, sometimes testing the songs and things like that. And also the album was recorded in a pretty short period of time for them, only four months, which for them was working pretty quickly. And that's, again, not continuously recording.
00:13:38
Speaker
In the summer of 2001 and one in the fall of 2001, they toured without an album. It was two years out from Desert Life. So they're um trying out new material. They're playing colleges.
00:13:50
Speaker
And in May that year, they played in Arizona and debuted Richard Manuel is Dead, Good Night, L.A., Black and Blue. um Also, they were playing Los Angeles in 1492 on that tour, which didn't show up on this album, but were recorded for this album and showed up on the next album.
00:14:09
Speaker
And they also were doing Going Down to New Yorktown. No, I don't know if they were doing that live, but it was listed as a song that was going to be on the album and then didn't make it onto the album. It was on the soundtrack.
00:14:22
Speaker
ah Let's see. And so they started adding these songs in the in the two this was That tour was the time that I drove a thousand miles to see them in New Orleans, to see them previewing shows or songs from Hard Candy.
00:14:35
Speaker
And at that show, at those two shows, they played eight new songs from the album. So eight out of the 14 songs were being played. But some of the key tracks, like the title track, Hard Candy, was not played at those shows. And so some of these songs were still new when I heard them.
00:14:50
Speaker
ah Adam had originally... you want to hear us deep dive on those on those shows, to our first episode with Jeff because we talk a lot. Those are great, great shows and we talk a lot about them actually. Yeah, so much fun. Adam
Pop Song Intentions and Themes
00:15:02
Speaker
originally had enlisted Eric Valentine. He was the guy who had produced Smash Mouth.
00:15:08
Speaker
And then it didn't really work out, the the sessions with him. ah Ethan Johns, the guy who produced Ryan Adams' Gold, which Adam had done answering Bell on that album, he started to work on it, too. That didn't totally pan out. But then they got Steve Lillywhite.
00:15:25
Speaker
And um Ethan Johns continued to stay on and work on some stuff. He gets credited for percussion on a track and some things like that. Now, Steve Lillywhite, this is um you know a real superstar producer who's worked with the biggest bands, the Rolling Stones. He had produced one of their albums, Peter Gabriel. Obviously, these are huge influences on Adam.
00:15:44
Speaker
But also, Steve Lillywhite produced the first two Psychedelic Furs albums, right? So recall what a big fan that Adam is of that band. um He also has worked on all the U2 albums since October, so all the way back and all the classic Joshua Tree, Octone Baby, all of those albums.
00:16:01
Speaker
i get Also, like Dave Matthews' band, the Crash album was produced by Lily White. So yeah I think that kind of sound, that really highly produced, polished, I mean, not in a good way, but just pristine, sparkling kind of production that he brings to it. I think that's what Adam really wanted.
00:16:18
Speaker
um While still kind of the tied to like a songwriter-y thing, I think it's, an you talk about all those Lily White records, it's it's like polished, but like it's sort of trying to retain a certain thread of something, right? like those like that You think about those Dave Matthews records and those U2 records, even though they're very polished records, they're not like polished like a pop um like a a true pop record, right? Which is but at least very... And yeah I think, I do think we'll talk more, obviously talk a lot more about Art Gandy, but I think that kind of comes through on the record and is kind of an interesting pull in terms of what he brings to that record.
00:16:52
Speaker
Yeah. And Adam said that he was deliberately trying to write pop songs on this album, shorter pieces than he had on Desert Life. He said perfect pop gems. And he was really kind of obsessed with doing that.
00:17:05
Speaker
um He also said that memory, Adam said that memory was the underlying sort of theme of the album. And although he did not write, like, to sit down say, I'm going to write a theme song, that that was kind of the underlying theme. And what was in the back of his mind as he was ah writing the album.
00:17:21
Speaker
and And Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong, but two things about that, when you're talking about these perfectly crafted pop songs, because he's kind of said this again, but I had heard it before, although I didn't know it's because he met him, that some of his influence was ah the Beatles on this one, right? They were specifically thinking, partly because he ran into...
00:17:37
Speaker
McCarthy, carneycarcarney sorry, somewhere. And then, but he was already kind of thinking about that. And then he met in met him at a party, right? And was talking to him. I only heard that part recently, but I had heard before that he was somewhat Beatles influence. And I think a couple of these songs have that influence.
00:17:52
Speaker
And I also, correct me if I'm wrong, I know Hard Candy, the song, has something, obviously it has to do with sweet memories and stuff like that. But I think, believe, he named the album that because he wanted the songs to be like,
00:18:08
Speaker
right? Perfected. i don't know, right? That what you're saying about the perfectly crafted sweet pop kind of thing had something to do with the name hard candy influence, right? And it says on the, what does it say on the cover of 13 fantastic flavors or something? Although was actually 14 with Big Yellow Taxi.
00:18:23
Speaker
So anyway, didn't mean to cut you off, but. No, no, yeah, that's, that that's exactly Um, I actually interviewed Dan Vickery on the Hard Candy Tour, and and he had told me that story, too, about and Paul McCartney and and the sort of ah time that he tells it on the podcast, but at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and Paul McCartney was being ah interdeed inducted into the Hall Fame, and Adam got to talk to him a little bit. And just, you know, what an inspiration it was that, you know, he had made, Paul McCartney had written such, know, incredible things
00:18:57
Speaker
um you know, songs and sometimes very short songs too, you know? um And so that was, that was certainly at the front of
Song Details and Collaborations
00:19:04
Speaker
his mind. Just a ah couple more things. um They did purportedly record and albums were the covers while they were doing this, um including some of the ones mentioned. And this was kind of the beginnings of their thinking. We're going to do like a Shim Sham show and put it onto record, record a bunch of cool covers, obscure covers, things that we like to do real loose. And we're going to make a record of covers.
00:19:27
Speaker
I do think that a lot of these like start again and stuff. I think that they were rerecorded for underwater sunshine, but there's yeah ah early sessions. And one of the ones that they kind of hit on that they really liked was big yellow taxi. They're like, Oh, this is cool. We can do something with this. And so they, they gave that a song or took it to this guy, Ron fair, who kind of a super producer, I'm guessing Geffen kind of paired them up.
00:19:51
Speaker
And um he had, he had some big hits for like Christina Aguilera, black eyed peas, Mary J. Plige. And he had just produced Vanessa Carlton's A Thousand Miles, you know. And walk a thousand miles.
00:20:05
Speaker
um And so that was a huge hit. And so they gave it to him. He kind of gave it this, you know, hip hop kind of beat and and souped it up a little bit. And um they decided they weren't going you know, they liked it enough. They wanted to do something with it. They, you know, basically put it as a hidden track on the album, kind of like hit kid things.
00:20:23
Speaker
It was a hidden track. This did not have Vanessa Carlton on it. And, and then they released the album. As part of the release of the album, famously, they paired with Coca-Cola, did a Coca-Cola commercial, which featured American girls and the band in in a Coca-Cola commercial.
00:20:42
Speaker
That ah came out and and it did help that out song do well. The song actually charted and did well. But also all of the discussions at the beginning of the album promotional cycle, everybody asked them about the Coca-Cola commercial and everybody, all the reviewers wrote about it in their reviews of Hard Candy too. So they'd be like, here's, ah you know, Counting Crows new album. And then they just paired with Coca-Cola. So,
00:21:07
Speaker
Although the idea was to get the song out there to the public in a new way on the on the new frontier and communicate with the fans. I think ultimately, you know, they didn't get any money for it. And they it gave them a lot of, in my opinion, negative publicity.
Fan and Critic Perceptions
00:21:21
Speaker
um It did sell, yeah, less. I would call it... um ah you know, their most ballad heavy album since August. and And also I think that among fans, obviously present company excluded, I think it's their most underrated album by the fans, because even on this show, we've had fans who come on and, you know huge kind of Crows fans, obviously who love the band so much.
00:21:44
Speaker
And they say, yeah, I kind of, you know, that after desert life, I kind of, that was kind of the end of it for me. And to me, I say to those fans who don't include Hard Candy in your most beloved Crows albums, you need to go back and and get into this one because it's so good.
00:21:58
Speaker
I do think, and I'm sure we'll talk about this, that it's it was the first of the four albums that where there's a lot of material where, in my opinion, like they coulda could have left that on a cutting room floor. And we'll be talking about that. It'll be interesting to hear the rankings. But to me, it was the first album that came along where it's like there were, in my opinion, a number of clunkers on this album.
00:22:18
Speaker
And um that ultimately was was part of the reason I think it doesn't get the the props that it deserves. I would say, though, that the Good songs are the best songs on this album, are as good as anything or better than anything they've ever done.
00:22:32
Speaker
This is them at the height of their powers. I think that they had developed and found themselves and found their sound. And and now they're going to get you know a Rolling Stones level producer and put out a you know a professional rock and roll record. And to me, ah it's really crows at the height of their powers. I love this record. So...
00:22:49
Speaker
Let's get it going. I think part of the problem... I'm very interested. I'm with you, Jeff. Like, I think... Absolutely. I think... um I bet all of us would say if you cut four or five songs from this record, it'd be a better record. I'm very excited to see the rankings and curious because I bet we would all cut very... We would all have very different cuts of this record. It's so it's sort of the, like...
00:23:08
Speaker
And I think it's sort of a little bit endemic to this era of music in that because everything was CD based, CDs were 74 minutes long. There was really nothing that stopped you from being like, okay, well, let's, why are we cutting these two songs to make it exactly perfect? Like we want, we think all these songs should be here.
00:23:24
Speaker
Who cares if the album is 55 minutes long, people can skip them or whatever. And so I think a lot of albums from this era suffer from this. um If you want like Ryan Adams gold would be another great example. That's a basically a 74 minute record.
00:23:38
Speaker
And if you slice some songs off that, it's like all killer, no filler. and there's still a lot of great songs that record. But like, again, i bet we could all argue if you're, if you're Ryan Adams fan, but um we could all argue about like what songs you'd cut from that.
00:23:51
Speaker
And I think there's just a lot of albums like that. um ah Eric, should I do my story of the album right here before we get into the rankings? Yeah, please, please. Because i do what because i very specifically remember buying this record.
00:24:04
Speaker
ah Fall of my sophomore year of college, Ardmore Music on the main line in Haverford, Pennsylvania. um It was sitting at the counter. Maybe it was it was getting promoted. There was a box of them. It was kind of sitting at the counter. I don't even remember what else.
00:24:19
Speaker
Because it was mostly like a used CD store. So I'd go in and I'd troll for different stuff. I'd bought a copy of August there, like the year before. I was like, oh, shoot, there's a new Counting Crows album out. I guess, despite the Coca-Cola ad, Jeff, this had just sort of gone over my head.
00:24:34
Speaker
right And I picked it up. And that really is the record. i have a big connection to this record. because this really is the record that took me from being like a fan of the Counting Crows to being like, very, very big fan. like By the end of this year, i had bought Across a Wire.
00:24:49
Speaker
i was like diving through various like lives ah websites to find live versions of these songs and figure out... like and just kind of really It's yeah it's really where i went from being fan to being like a deep deep fan. So this is really, ah I think a very special record for me.
00:25:13
Speaker
I will say also it's ah couple of interesting things. I first listened to this record i was 19. I'm 41 now. um it is interesting what connected with me at 19 versus 41. thinking about this is it's, it's been a while since I'd like just sat and really listened to these songs.
00:25:29
Speaker
um I also think it's a very, when you really you talk about the pop sheen on these songs, when you break down some of these songs, they are very strange in a good way a lot of times. But like when you combine the musicality of some of these songs with the sound of the words versus the actual meaning of, we sort of like triangulate all of those.
00:25:52
Speaker
Sometimes shit, man, these are weird, deep and interesting songs. And I think, and I think that way to Jeff too, this is a very underrated album in that regard, in terms of the lyricism yeah and the way these things are presented.
Song Rankings and Opinions
00:26:05
Speaker
um I think sometimes the songs that don't work is because Adam is trying to do something that doesn't quite get all the way there. but We'll get much deeper into that at some of these songs. But um but yeah, so yeah, this is ah were we're we're taking you back to to Chris's college dorm room in Pennsylvania.
00:26:25
Speaker
And we'll get right into the song rankings. but i Although I mentioned it once, I think, it earlier in the podcast, or maybe even in the first episode, but I kind of buried the lead in that I picked up the, yeah now I remember I picked up, unlike August, which I think I picked up later, and I know I did, and Recovering, maybe I picked it up a week after it was released, or the week, I don't remember, but not the day, but Desert, I picked up the day, but this one, I picked up The day it was released at the Counting Crows official release party.
00:26:53
Speaker
I forgot about that, right? So it was that um it was at a Tower Records in Philadelphia. first i don't know why Philadelphia, but that's where they did it. And they did a World Cafe five song set, which I was not early enough to get into.
00:27:08
Speaker
So they played all acoustic, which was kind of interesting. They played Hard Candy, Mr. Jones, Richard Manuel, Long December and American Girls, all acoustic. ah You can find that um online. But this is how dumb and behind I was, Eric. I could have taken the train to that gig.
00:27:24
Speaker
Yep. yeah On the main line. If I'd known about that gig, we could have been at that gig together, but I missed it. Idiot. And I tried to get I was working for such a strict little company for three months and it was I forget I had a lie about something like I had like an appendix to get taken out and I left it like two in the afternoon or something and drove down quickly.
00:27:43
Speaker
um And I knew that even if I couldn't get in, that they were going to do a CD signing. So I do have that that signed by all band members, including Ben and Matt and Emmy Emmy was there.
00:27:56
Speaker
But the interesting thing, but Jeff, to see you'd like this. So the issue, although I guess I lost the original, the issue was later I got the CD with the the hidden tracks and for some reason, I didn't want to keep both copy of it. So I have the original booklet that I got signed. And then the CD itself is the one with hidden tracks. But I guess that way I lost the original Big Yellow Taxi.
00:28:15
Speaker
yeah without any But I did get it signed by them. and And that's where afterwards I saw, I mentioned this before, I saw them, a lot of the band members milling around Tower Records when a lot of the fans left. And I said hi to Bryson and Matt.
00:28:27
Speaker
i um Adam was very busy looking through the records and you could tell not really want to be bothered. So I did not bother him. So, thanks um cool but yeah, so let's get into the rankings. 14 songs to rank.
00:28:39
Speaker
These are the, this is the only one that I'm going to say not official because I've changed mine so unscientifically and I was even influenced by Jeff. I think I saw his rankings and might've messed me up a little bit. So here we go.
00:28:50
Speaker
Oh, so the one interesting thing I do want to say is I know this sounds a little silly, but it will make sense we get to it. A lot of the other albums, it's like, oh, these were like, it was in like three different, these were kind of the lower, the middle and the high.
00:29:02
Speaker
This one basically had six different demarcations, but very clear demarcations on those six. Okay. And I think it will make sense when we get to that, which is interesting. So the one demarcation that's totally by itself, which would be the the song that got the lowest, but I'm going to talk about more in a positive way.
00:29:24
Speaker
is Big Yellow Taxi. So Big Yellow Taxi was 14 out of 14 in our little rankings. um Everyone put it as their least favorite song or second or third least, except for me, who had it right in the middle.
00:29:38
Speaker
It was my eighth favorite. and i now I know we were supposed to judge the Vanessa version, not that. I'll just, I guess I'll speak first just because I had it the highest. I,
00:29:50
Speaker
I like this. I know that maybe people see it as, and especially adding Vanessa as a little bit trying to be a little pop, but i at the time when I heard, i like I knew that Adam could do a traditional cover of Big Yellow Taxi. That would be really easy for him.
00:30:06
Speaker
And I kind of like the poppy sensibility. Does it need Vanessa? No, but I can, I kind of just... i don't want to say block it out, but I don't pay it any mind.
00:30:19
Speaker
I just, I just like the cover. I think it's kind of original. I think it still is a counting crazy and I think it's a good song and that's, and I, yeah, I mean the live version I know is a little different and people like that, but I like that as well. So I'll go to, I'm going to go to, well, i guess I will go in order. Chris, any comment on Big Yellow Taxi?
00:30:38
Speaker
Yeah, I had this 12th. um I actually, again, I really like the live versions of this a lot better than this recorded version. I've always just found the recorded version, and especially the version with Vanessa Carlton, kind of just kind of lays flat for me. It just doesn't do, this doesn't get i don't know, something about the production on it that has never quite hit me.
00:30:57
Speaker
um always like the ah but andlaw like live version, but it was always strange for me as a very big Counting Crows fan. that This was a huge hit. I mean, huge, huge hit. This was on the radio everywhere. yeah And it would people would be like, oh, hey, Chris, Counting Crows. they'd be like, I know, but it's this one again. yeah It was such a weird feeling.
00:31:15
Speaker
um I do always love this story that in 2003, they were playing um a series of shows around in December, around the holidays, at the Warfield in San Francisco. And also, I think, in a theater in LA, too.
00:31:27
Speaker
um And apparently, Adam was like coming out of a cab... but And Vanessa Carlton was getting into one or something. And they bumped into each other. And they're like, hey, nice to meet you.
00:31:38
Speaker
Vanessa Carlton was like, yeah, we sing together sometimes. um Because they had never met. And then she showed up. And they did that song. And also A Thousand Miles on piano together.
00:31:50
Speaker
um That night, I think, again, I think it's at the Warfield. I mean, again, it's either the Warfield or in l LA. it's It's definitely December of 2003. um Those are really nice versions, too. So but worth seeking those out. But the actual album version, no I heard him recently say that he wanted to do, I don't know if you're hanging around, he almost wanted to do some extra, ah some more songs that...
00:32:12
Speaker
were more dance-y or hip-hop-y. He actually always had a goal of that. I actually like kind of the hip-hop drum in the background. But anyway, let's go to... I'll do it in order of the videos. Let's go to Brent.
00:32:22
Speaker
Brent, your thoughts about Big Yellow Taxi? Yeah, so the original hit and track on the album, I really liked. um Adding Vanessa Carlton to me was the first like big misstep of Counting Crows to me personally, where I really felt like they did something that I hated.
00:32:38
Speaker
And I doubt I'm the first to say this, but the ah the song is about how commercialization or trying to monetize something can kind of take away the beauty. Adam has to understand that that's what he did here, right?
00:32:49
Speaker
At least to some extent, even if you don't fully buy into that, it's just trying to make a hit. I hate it. The fact that she's just added on to it without really being involved in the song at all to me is preposterous. So to me, it's an interesting song. Once you add her in there with her crazy sounds, that's not for me.
00:33:07
Speaker
All right. So for those of us that bought Hard Candy early, maybe we like listening to the non-Vanessa version. of Rob, let's go to you. Yeah. So the thing which with Big Yellow Taxi is it's Counting Crow's biggest hit in the UK. And It's so overplayed.
00:33:25
Speaker
Do you remember when Nickelback released How You Remind Me and it was everywhere all the time and you were just like, please stop. that's That's what happened with this song. And it's not that I hate this song. It's just that I have that vivid memory of please play another Counting Crow song because there are so many that are so much better.
00:33:46
Speaker
That's not even close. So this one really sort sticks in my throat, so I can't give it any real love because of that. I still like the song. If it's on, I'm like, oh, cool. But it just doesn't it doesn't fill me with joy anymore the way the rest of the album does.
00:34:05
Speaker
And Jeff, we'll go to you, but but you know and maybe we'll have a Big Hill Taxi episode sometime. I do think what's interesting, though, Jeff, you like history. I believe this is the last... video that the whole band was in, which makes me kind of but sad and melancholy in a way as well.
00:34:21
Speaker
As beef the other ones. i can encourage Yeah, and the other ones either have just Adam or they don't have, you know, like all the ones for. um ah Yeah, anyway, some of the newer ones, they just have a video with with none of them. But Jeff, go to you.
00:34:34
Speaker
Yeah, so, and I, you know, but I mean, maybe I'm sure we all understand this, but the, you know, the album was originally released with just the Crows cover. And so for many of us, we spent six months with the original original song.
00:34:47
Speaker
And I liked it. I think it was a good cover and interesting cover for them to do. um i liked the the hip hop thing. And I, It made a lot of sense. I enjoyed it. And to me, the Vanessa Carlton version, this came out, it was released in like November.
00:35:01
Speaker
They then removed it from the album, took away the hidden track, put the song on there as a bonus track. And, um and, and it suddenly becomes a different thing. Like others have said, it's, you know, had they done a cover together, i would be very interested to hear it, but having someone karaoke over your song that that's like, you know, your annoying little sister in the car or something like that. Like,
00:35:25
Speaker
It's just an yeah very ah very odd ah decision to do that. And it was Ron Fares, you know work with her that did it. You know, i again. So I think that that's the issue with it. The other thing is I've talked about this before and ah we'll have to talk about it with Hard Candy. But to me, one of the great things about the Counting Crows is their use of space.
00:35:48
Speaker
and how they use space in their songs and how important parts of their music are the parts where they're not playing or not doing something or where it's very quiet. And so to have someone come in and intrude in, in these spaces, you know, like she found a place to insert herself to me makes it more annoying because those spaces were all deliberate, you know, and, and they're very deliberate in their use of space. And so that's the part that it really, it's almost like, um,
00:36:13
Speaker
you know Brent's great point about consumerism and there's sort of almost hypocrisy around, you know there's a meta sort of hypocrisy to it. in the In the same way, it's like there's a meta hypocrisy to allowing someone into that space that's so important in your music. you know So I didn't like that. But I will say, ah great use of strings and um I did like that. And, and um you know, there's some
Live Performances
00:36:37
Speaker
some cool things. I do think the cover itself was fine until Vanessa Carlton's version became the ubiquitous version that we all hear. and And here also on Spotify, it's one of their top five songs.
00:36:47
Speaker
You hear it in the grocery store all the time and it annoys me. And the original version is just the original cover version is just gone. It's hard to find. You can't find it anywhere. Yeah. You have to basically search for it on YouTube. It's not a children's compilation on Spotify. There's like, ah you know, kids rock songs and and it's on there, the original version. So you can find it and it's worth hearing.
00:37:07
Speaker
It's the exact same version as Vanessa Carlton's. There's no difference. I think that's but that's a really astute point, Jeff. I think the fact, like, the way that they use her vocals to sort of cut the space is part of, I think, why... i feel like you've explained to me why I've disliked this version for, like, 20 years, is that it just... It doesn't have the space and it doesn't breathe, really. It just kind of...
00:37:30
Speaker
You have somebody hogging up that space and that's that's so important. So and yeah, i'm I'm really glad that we're all in agreement on this. I wasn't sure that I thought, oh, maybe this would be controversial.
00:37:41
Speaker
If we were judging the other song, this would have come up much higher for me. but By the way, I like seeing them on the Coke commercial. I like seeing my heroes on TV, you only for a little bit, right? I wish I could see them now on a commercial. But anyway, let's go to the next group. Thank you for your thoughts. ah So this is what I would call group number five.
00:37:57
Speaker
There's four songs in here. So we were somewhat agreeing to where these were located in the ranking. So number song number 13 and Will um is black and blue.
00:38:10
Speaker
Now, Chris had this the highest, who had it as number nine. The rest of us had it. fairly low in our bottom five. It looked like myself and Jeff had to do lowest, but let's start with Chris who ah generally likes black and blue.
00:38:25
Speaker
Yeah. it's I mean, it's a good, so it's kind of right under, I, my rankings sort of fit into like a top eight, I kind of felt like, and then sort of a bottom six. So it's, it's sort of just below what feels like the midpoint of the record to me.
00:38:41
Speaker
um, I like the song. I think it's it's kind of it's very beautiful. um i I sort of connect to it. I had a ah someone I spent some time with in college. It was like one of their favorite songs. and the i it's like It's kind of a beautiful song about sort of someone feeling very fragile, and I've i've always ah sort of connected to it. I think it's like kind of a lovely song.
00:39:01
Speaker
Again, I don't think it's one of their best on the record here. i think it's um I think in a record that has a lot of actually really beautiful ballads, it kind of falls... to me in sort of the bottom of that group.
00:39:14
Speaker
um But I think there is something, don't know, there's something nice about it And it's a very interesting, there's a lot on this record that's Adam really working through the perspectives of women in himself.
00:39:28
Speaker
And I do think this one where he's sort of really kind of taking a sort of that, that more feminine perspective is kind of, ah lyrically pretty interesting and and sort of nice. but Okay, great.
00:39:40
Speaker
So let's go to... Well, fine. Brent, you can talk about Black and Blue. Yeah, I think it's a good song. I don't really have a whole lot to say about it, to be perfectly honest, which is probably why I had it ranked relatively low. I think it's just a pretty solid song. I like the way it ends. It kind of just peters out and goes into this sort of spacious zone.
00:39:59
Speaker
um But there's nothing that really stands out to me about the lyrics or the music. Rob, let's go to you. So Black and Blue falls... When I was ranking the album, everything from kind of 12 to 7 could have interchanged at any point on any any given day, just how I felt about the songs and how I go. But I think with Black and Blue, there are much stronger ballads, as Chris says on there, that it feels like it falls short compared to songs that I've got higher on the list.
00:40:31
Speaker
um It is a beautiful song. I think Adam's vocal performance in it is excellent as well. um But yeah, it just sort of filters away me. There's not a great deal that sort of makes it a memorable song.
00:40:44
Speaker
All right. And Jeff, let's go to you. Jeff, you and I had it ranked the lowest, so we'll go to you first. I hate, by the way, i feel bad. I feel guilty ranking anything low that Adam created, but i there is a ranking. so Yeah, right. Well...
00:40:58
Speaker
you know, for me, it was like, there I feel like there are seven just great songs on this album and seven songs that are all on the Lost Column for me. And so this very clearly was in the Lost Column.
00:41:10
Speaker
It always felt, I think a lot of the songs on this album in the Lost Column are just underdeveloped. You know, they didn't work on these songs were long enough. Like, There's some good ideas in there and some interesting things, but they're just, what they did in a lot of cases on this album was instead of developing the songs, was they just added some more instruments and little fills and harmonies and stuff to it, but it never really goes anywhere. So um fun fact, because we were talking about ah should they just drop two or three songs from this album, um Recovering the Satellites, 59 minutes and something seconds,
00:41:44
Speaker
um This Desert Life, 59 minutes and something seconds. Hard Candy, 59 minutes and something seconds. Saturday nights and Sunday mornings, 59 minutes and something seconds. This is a bit, this is all from Wikipedia.
00:42:01
Speaker
I couldn't believe it either. Go look it up. I think This Desert Life includes the space, but that shocked me because I thought, well, it's Saturday nights and Sunday. Oh, Saturday nights and Sunday morning, that I'm sorry, is is longer, I think. But Or maybe it's not. Anyway, I was shocked to that that many of their albums come
Album Length Observations
00:42:17
Speaker
in at that length. And so they seem to really like 59 Minutes and think that that's the perfect length for an album for them.
00:42:23
Speaker
But um yeah, I have to say, ah for me, this one this one was a clear loss. I guess if it, I know for some people, and this is like your favorite Counting Crows song. And so, and and that's great. I like that we all have different opinions and stuff about this. For me, this song, I've heard it a million times, tried it again many times for prepare for this episode and thumbs down. Sorry. Sorry, Adam. Okay. Yeah. I feel, you know, I know what you're saying, Jeff. Like it's funny. A lot of us, I really, most of us had like, and that's why we have certain,
00:43:01
Speaker
breaks here, that there was like generally a top seven or eight that we generally agreed on and then kind of the next group and kind of where we went there. My top seven kept changing every couple days.
00:43:11
Speaker
um I will say that black but a little bit of me too think i don't mind having some like Black and Blue is a perfect example of a song I don't mind having on the album. I like it even though I've had it as my second least favorite. um that it's still And I actually appreciate it more live. They played it in LA when I was there.
00:43:29
Speaker
And I really enjoyed hearing it live, even though on the album, um yeah, I didn't think it was the best. So, okay, great. Still liked it. But yeah, I had a little lower. And number 13 on our rankings.
00:43:41
Speaker
Now number 12. And this is, boy, I'm really the iconoclast on this one. This is another one that almost everybody had low except for, it looks like Jeff and had it a little higher.
00:43:54
Speaker
Which would be their, what is it? New Wave Poppy. Is that how you'd call it? New Frontier. New Frontier. And so that would be our 12th in the group rankings. Now, Jeff, you can add some, me and you you and I can talk about this first. You can add some insight. Because I think we mentioned this once that didn't, when the Crows first formed, they were almost talking about making this kind of music.
00:44:15
Speaker
And this is like, they're kind of more modern. I say that about a 25-year-old record. But they're more modern take on the 80s or something like that. I have no idea why it's not particularly, i guess, melodic. I think it could be developed a little more.
00:44:31
Speaker
i had this rank number nine. i I like this song. I don't skip it. I think it's kind of, to Chris's point, a little silly. And some of the lyrics are a little ridiculous about aluminium. Oh, I'd like Rob's take on the British English and mining the tracks and stuff.
00:44:48
Speaker
um But I don't know. i I just like it. I think it's fun even though it's i think it's a fun song, even and I like them kind of experimenting, even though it's not my top eight.
00:44:58
Speaker
So, Jeff, let's go to you. Yeah, well, again, to me, it still goes in the lost column. I would call it a failed experiment. I dislike it less than the other songs, so that's why it got as high as number nine for me. But um but I do think that, one, it's a hearkening back to...
00:45:16
Speaker
you know, what the band was trying to maybe sound like in the early days. And I think for that reason, it's very cool. I like what they were trying to do with it. um The song itself is about how a singer communicates with his audience and how the audience communicates with the singer.
00:45:29
Speaker
And I just think that's a ah cool idea and and using new technology to do that. um There is a little bit of the like Shallow Days demo in here. You can hear a little bit of Einstein on the beach in here, just a little bit, you know, those two songs, if you like those, I feel like it kind of goes in that vein.
00:45:46
Speaker
um Like I said, I love it when a great band tries to do something new and different. And that's clearly what they tried to do here. I think they didn't succeed or get it across the finish line, but I really appreciate that they tried something different.
Experimental Tracks Discussion
00:46:00
Speaker
It does sound different. It'd be a fun song to see live. And then only other thing i was going to I noticed was that the line inside of you um is in this song and also in carriage that that, law is you know, all inside of you or inside of you is in this song and carriage and they're right next to each other on the album as well. And that really rough middle patch of the album where a lot of these kinds of songs are in there. And so to me, that was another sort of, it's part of what adds to the the problem of this album is you have these songs that are like taking a line like that, building a ah track around it, then putting those songs next to each other on the album. So not not one of my favorites, but I do appreciate some things about New Frontier.
00:46:43
Speaker
Chris, let's go to you. So, yeah, I had this one pretty low as well. i Again, I think we're all kind of aligned so far in that the idea of it's kind of being kind of a failed experiment. um And it's interesting you brought up, Jeff, because I do have a note that it kind of reminds me of like Einstein on the beach.
00:46:58
Speaker
Then part of me is like, why won't you play Einstein, Adam? mean, that's a better I feel like that's a more successful in certain ways pop song than this one. um It's like, again, it's delightful song. I don't have a sort of a problem with it. But in terms of like the way it connects to me.
00:47:13
Speaker
um didn't have much there interestingly it's been it's been played a little bit it has sort of like they they bring it out every now and then um although it has not been played since uh 2015 um so you could again you could see it live it's possible it's a thing that happens um yeah don't know so brett brett your take on new frontier yeah so chris said that um he kind of has a different interpretation of this album now he did when it came out. And I feel the same way. I listened this album so much when I was a teenager.
00:47:48
Speaker
And I think a lot of the emotional stuff from this album, I don't connect to as much anymore. And then a song like New Frontier, i really didn't like it early on. But when I go back and listen to it now, i'm like, well, it's it's kind of interesting. You know, it's got what I don't. Is it a theremin going on there? I don't know. It's got some strange instrumentation.
00:48:05
Speaker
um So it's it's kind of cool to see a ah different style of song, even if it is kind of silly, if you really get right down to it. Rob, your take on aluminium and Minding the Gap. I almost wanted to buy a Minding the Gap t-shirt, not as a tribute to London, but as a tribute to the song. so Yeah.
00:48:22
Speaker
I mean, I wasn't going to bring up the the correct use of aluminium. I was going to leave that to you to you guys and just sort of have it sit there. um But this I'm the exact opposite of Brent here. When the album first came out, I loved New Frontier. It was sort of like, yeah, this is happy and...
00:48:39
Speaker
like happy and like really sort of like it was an outlier in the album it stood out so much andre like this is great but the more I've grown up the more I've listened to the rest of the songs and it doesn't sort of hold that same um love anymore it just kind of sits there in that sort of bottom echelon like you say that rough patch in the middle I think it follows some really great songs so it's got a real difficult job to make itself heard so yeah but aluminium is absolutely the correct use of that word
00:49:11
Speaker
I mean, it's weird. This this one, i was just looking at the lyrics a little bit. This one, don't talk about too much, but obviously it's based upon some real things that happen. Usually you probably had conversation with some girl with, what was it?
00:49:24
Speaker
Marvelous hair in London, cetera. but Some of these lyrics are pretty abstract that you kind of see a little more later, right? It's a little less literal, at least in my opinion. And I think this is start of that transition that really comes up yeah later and and certainly, yeah. Yeah, you can almost see this on Somewhere Under Wonderland, Eric. Exactly.
00:49:45
Speaker
Yeah, know that's that's exactly what I was thinking. So yeah, that's you're right, um Jeff, about the inside of you as well. yeah Okay. So, yeah, okay. A little more of a... Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't give it little a little more success for me, but but but but I understand why So, so oh, to your tip point, Jeff, before we move, so clearly the three...
00:50:08
Speaker
examples which is interesting on an album that they wanted to be more poppy or or write more perfect perfected songs although i guess that's partly what this is i was going to say three songs clearly they went out of the traditional comfort zone which was the big yellow taxi even the original um because they hadn't used that kind of drum beat before in anything that's for sure you wouldn't hear that in august i'll tell you that much and then uh this song and then of course um Butterfly in Reverse, I think, is is a little bit out of their comfort zone. so Okay, so now for song number 11. We haven't gone to the top 10 yet. the song Now, this is the first time we've really diverged. Big Hill Taxi, I was a bit different than everyone.
00:50:50
Speaker
But this is one of the few times recently that Chris and I might not 100% love each other. because I had this song as one ah as my lowest, and Chris had it quite high. um And by the way, this is i also am ah I hope James Campion is not listening because I know he loves this song, which is Carriage. And I had as the lowest. Chris had as the highest. well You had it as number five on your list.
00:51:13
Speaker
I think James Campion said that it was his favorite song on this album. And I know people like the song, just like Jeff said. I know people love Black and Blue. So, ah Jeff, ah Chris, let's start with you and Kerry. Yeah. No, and this interesting because this is not traditionally a song I had super high in my mind as I was like going into listening to this record.
00:51:30
Speaker
um But i really listening to this song again, i thought was really striking and beautiful. I really love the the trumpet playing by Andre Carter on this is is really beautiful.
00:51:42
Speaker
um It really, you know, kind of struck me as um a more mature version of some of the things, of the themes that are discussed in the earlier records. You know, the record is, the song is about um someone having a a miscarriage. um But really, really it's about sort of Adam, and and one could extrapolate sort of a little bit a man's relationship to someone having a miscarriage, right? that The idea of ah all of the things that are sort of inside that other person, right? It was it was all inside of you.
00:52:15
Speaker
um the the How connected and how, but but how it's not yours, right? It is, this is not his pain really to deal
Song Themes and Emotional Complexity
00:52:23
Speaker
with. and And what's kind of interesting about it is that I i sort of connect it a little bit to like Goodnight Elizabeth, right? Goodnight Elizabeth is a song about someone breaking up with you and you going out and like, you know, Adam sort of having a good time to sort of ease that pain.
00:52:40
Speaker
And while it's kind of sad, it's also kind of triumphant, right? You know, um I'll miss you when I'm slipping in between is not said like with a tear. You know what I mean?
00:52:51
Speaker
Whereas this song... I think also sort of is kind of talking about that, about maybe using other people to sort of numb pain is very, it's like, it's maybe a realization that that's not going to work anymore, that there are some things that are not going to be numbed by these sorts of things. And it's sort of, again, that's a more sort of grown up kind of version of it. And I think anyone who's dealt with issues of conception and I think it's a ah very kind of powerful and beautiful song.
00:53:20
Speaker
I had it, you know, I said it's sort of a group of ballads. I actually had it, I think the highest, I had it number five. I had it the highest of of a group of ballads that I have in sort of the top group of them. And I think it's, um I think it's a really interesting, if if people haven't listened to in a while, I think it's a really, one really kind of worth kind of reexamining in the context um of their records. And they should play it more if they can get Andre Carter to show up and play some trumpet is my feeling.
00:53:45
Speaker
ah Yeah, sorry, Brent. Going to you next, you had it kind of in the middle lower. so what would you like to say about it? Yeah, I had it ninth. um i think it's I think it's a fine song. um To me, it's pretty different from anything else. It's probably the saddest song, to me, the hardest listen of anything on the first four albums.
00:54:04
Speaker
So in that regard, I think I've probably not listened to it that much, but I really appreciated it the first you know couple of dozen times that I heard it. Like Chris, I really like the horns. I think that really brings us all together.
00:54:15
Speaker
ah But to me, it's just another middle of the road song. But it's hard to say a song that this emotional could be thrown out. You know, to me, it's so emotional that it's got to it's got to carry some weight with the fans. Thank you. Rob, your thoughts on Carriage?
00:54:27
Speaker
So I have Carriage at 13. um think its position on the album really hurts it as a song, as the album flows. You know, you you come from New Frontier where it's all... did little did little do And then it's like, I'm going to hit you in the face a song about miscarriage. And you're like...
00:54:48
Speaker
umm not ready for that and i think it's so jarring in that moment it sort of takes me out of the experience of the album and it takes me out the experience of the song um and and then followed by black and blue makes it again struggle behind that song in my eyes because i think black and blue is just a little bit of a stronger song overall so it just doesn't sort of like i say it really takes you out of the moment of the album and um reduces the impact of it. As I said, you're right with how it how strong it is lyrically and with the horns and all the pieces that lie with it, but its it just sort of loses its place because it's where it's placed in the album for me.
00:55:25
Speaker
I think if it was at the end or a little bit earlier, it might have hit different, but it's always been sort of sat there for me. That's interesting. Yeah, thank you. That's a good point. You know, you go straight from thinking about how we should pronounce the word aluminum and you've got some weird theremin or something that's like, oh yeah, my girlfriend had a miscarriage too.
00:55:41
Speaker
It is pretty jarring. Jeff, we'll go to you, even though I don't know if I trust anything you say after I thought we were bonding on New Frontier. like, I really like it. And you and you gave it a thumbs down at number nine. That's horrible. But anyway, Jeff, let's do it. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, that's all right.
00:55:57
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, again, I ranked at number 11, but it could have been 12. It could have been 13. To me, this goes in group of songs on this album that were just underdeveloped and it ah kind of don't don't go anywhere. um i guess the listening to it again, and I did listen to it, and this album a whole bunch of times to kind of warm up for the show.
00:56:21
Speaker
and it has kind of an early Washington square feel to it. There are a little bit of walkaways, Mercury in there. Like if you like those songs, I can see, you know, what you might like in this song. To me, it just always felt underdeveloped and, you know, adding the trumpet it again, to me, it's just, I felt like sometimes they did that in this, this album. They just said, well, let's throw a trumpet on there. Okay. You know, now we got something different, like new frontier. This is different. So we're going to go with it. And,
00:56:46
Speaker
To me, Adam's commitment to writing pop songs on this album, although I know he says that, and we're going to see some examples of that, I don't think you see that on some of these songs. I think these are pretty underdeveloped in songs.
00:56:58
Speaker
And no matter how many times I've heard them, i just got this is another one that's in the Lost column for me. Sorry, everybody. I know some of you love this song so much. That's funny. Yeah, well, I appreciate one thing you said. yeah i don't know it's underdeveloped, but um ah shoot, I was going to go on...
00:57:12
Speaker
Yeah, anyway, shoot. I was going to comment. Washington in Square? Was it the Washington Square connection? No, no, no, I can't read that. But I do say that I do – I actually – well, overall, one thing we didn't say is I do think that the – oh, no, about the carefully – I agree with you about the carefully – like this would not be an example of hard candy.
00:57:30
Speaker
Right. This is – And probably more than any other song on here, i would say that this is not. And in some ways it doesn't fit in. This should be like a bonus track or something like that or or another.
00:57:41
Speaker
um I do love, i I disagree with you about the horns. I think of it fits in beautifully here. and And I got to say, is is it three or four, right? heat Andre Carter, that's his name, right? Is on Chelsea and Palisades Park and this one. Is there another one or is it just those three?
00:57:57
Speaker
Those are the three that immediately spring to mind. If there's one more, yeah that's those three, though, are really like... Yeah. and i think of him And I love it in all three. So even though I had this as my least favorite, I think it's because it's the first... went Interesting. Yes.
00:58:09
Speaker
I think it's because it's the first Counting Crows song... that I, not a lot, not all the time, but I would sometimes skip or could skip on this CD where I didn't feel that way even about maybe Black and Blue and some of the others.
00:58:22
Speaker
um i To me, I do like, I'm looking at the lyrics now. I do like so like the first verse and I do like the thing about the ah world of chocolate bars and baseball cards. But one thing I guess I didn't like, and maybe you know I can't relate to some of this, is thought it was a little too on the nose, some of the lyrics.
00:58:39
Speaker
Like, I think you could have got the same points across. and just That's just my take on it, you know, about the inside of you and the evidence congealing and lips and eyes. I just think that's just my take on it. i think that part of it, though, I think that only works if you if you've been told what the song's about. I think it's actually it's pretty...
00:58:58
Speaker
um Yeah, i but I'm with you. I do take the idea that in certain ways, this is relative to this record. Like, this this song might be much more beloved if it was a bonus track to this record.
00:59:08
Speaker
Yeah. Because you'd go, oh, here's this cool thing. Like, yeah, like Chelsea. um As opposed to sort of, again, in ah in a very – it's definitely different than a lot of the rest the record.
00:59:20
Speaker
right but But definitely appreciate it i appreciate And i at least I love that other people like it. I want to say it's one of my least favorite kind of girl songs. Maybe my second. My first is coming up in in a future album. So, okay.
00:59:33
Speaker
Here we go. Now, this is the last of the... Well, can't be quadrant, whatever the, I forget now, what's the, for six categories? Sextant. Yeah, sextant. But the category number five. Easy, it's easy. Which is, let's see here. I think most of us had this in the middle, but two of us, oh, no, no, you know what? Two had it in, this is why it's still this lower group.
00:59:55
Speaker
Two had it in the middle, two had it lower, and one of us had it right at the bottom, would be their hit, quote unquote, single, American Girls. I have lots of thoughts about it, but let's go to the people that like it, which a lot, which would be the highest ranking were Robin.
01:00:13
Speaker
Let's go Rob. Rob, let's start with you. You had American girls number six, i or seven. yeah So yeah, let's go to you. So I think American Girls is really different for me to how it is to you guys, because we didn't get the Coca-Cola commercial.
01:00:29
Speaker
We didn't get the um whole stuff that went with it. We just got it as a single at some point. It was just like on the album there. So we didn't get it that came with all that sort of commercial side of like,
01:00:41
Speaker
Here we are with Coca-Cola. We just kind of got American Girls. And my love for that song is there shouldn't be a song that sounds that happy that ends with those lyrics...
01:00:54
Speaker
Like, it's just such a it's such a sad song, but the happiest song on the album. It's such a wonderful juxtaposition of how he works his lyrics into that song.
01:01:05
Speaker
Like, singing You Make Me Cry over and over again in a summer anthem that's on a Coca-Cola advert in the US just brings me so much joy that they're so smart to get away with that kind of thing.
01:01:17
Speaker
And we can say that they've sold out, they've done the coat colouring, but you listen to the lyrics of that song, there's no sellout in that song. It's just they've made a beautiful hard candy pop song with these beautifully dark, hurtful lyrics inside, and I love that about the song.
01:01:34
Speaker
right, great. ah Rob, you sorry, you we already said to Rob. So Jeff, you also had it. You had it in the middle. I don't know if this made your plus or that I can't tell from your list. It's one above new Frontier. Okay, you had it as a negative also. So this could have been anywhere in the bottom seven for you. Jeff, you, geez, come on. Jeff's favorite album where he only likes two songs, but um just kidding.
01:01:56
Speaker
So Jeff, let's go to you. Your thoughts about American Girls. Yeah. So um I think there are, to me, this is a pretty okay song with just terrible lyrics. and and there There are songs like Some Girls by the Rolling Stones, and the great title track to their amazing 1978 album that kind of does the same thing.
Single Release and Reception
01:02:16
Speaker
That's a song that doesn't age so well either lyrically, but yeah.
01:02:20
Speaker
And even they call it some girls. Hashtag not all girls. yeah Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. um So ah but then there's like American Girl by Tom Petty, which is about a specific person and and is a great song as a result. So um one.
01:02:36
Speaker
I think lyrically, the lyrical conceit to me always, from the very beginning, it's like, I'm this rock star and I'm going to tell you what it's like to sleep with American girls or, you know, French girls. This is what the Stones were doing. French girls are like this and American girls are like this. And, you know, these girls are like that.
01:02:53
Speaker
I think it's an okay song. I like the... What Sheryl Crow did with it, I think there's, you know, again, this with some different lyrics and a different kind of conceit overall, I think there was something here.
01:03:04
Speaker
But this paired with the video, which shows us here's what Adam was thinking. Don't know if they play this one a lot, but I doubt that they do. All right. Brent, let's go. into No, it's interesting. they They don't play it much recently. recently you know, you never know if it might come back. But it's interesting, given that it was a fairly successful.
01:03:21
Speaker
Full single, moderately successful. Yeah, it was number one on the AAA charts. This was a big song for them. This was a big hit. man But it's it's sort of um it hasn't been remembered the way that some of their other hits have, I think.
01:03:35
Speaker
It was last played in 2007. So they have pretty fully abandoned this one once. like It was last played regularly in 2004. And even that was only nine plays. its It's been a while.
01:03:48
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, Jeff, I don't agree with everything you say. A little negative to me. But you know what's really interesting, and I don't 100% agree with you in the lyrics. I'll talk about mine a second. But one interesting thing is you are kind of in alignment then with Matt Malley, who did not like the release the song. That's true, yeah. And he thought it was a little bit of a song.
01:04:11
Speaker
Yeah. um Especially in Wake of 9-11, but in general. So edible, he was saying. It's like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, if Jeff, I was about to mention that the lyrics, ah American girls are all feathers and cream coming to bed so edible.
01:04:24
Speaker
Adam has said he he hated those lyrics after the fact, but is anything less edible than feathers? I mean, the analogy just totally breaks down. um And in general, I'll say that this album, ah compared to the first three albums, to me, the lyrics are a lot worse. Like, I can't really think of any lyrics that I really had a problem with on the first three albums.
01:04:46
Speaker
On this fourth album, and I'll probably bring this up a few times, there's lyrics I just don't really understand what we're going for. um But to me, this album, this song rather, the guitar intonation more than anything else drives me insane. ah You know, let's try to make a hit.
01:05:01
Speaker
Doesn't really align with the type of music that we hear from Counting Crows the rest of the album or even the rest of their catalog. And that's why I had it last. Although I do like Sheryl Crow in the background. I think she did pretty good job. Yeah.
01:05:12
Speaker
ah Chris, before my thoughts, do you want you have anything to add? sure know I do i do It's a really interesting song to kind of break down. I think my biggest issue with the lyrics, I think, is that... but I think everyone's got issues with the lyrics.
01:05:25
Speaker
It's a very... there are There are songs on this record that we'll get to. We haven't gotten to them yet, where there's some interesting juxtapositions of how the song sounds and the lyrics and and some really interesting angles on it.
01:05:36
Speaker
This one, I think, is going for that, but it's very muddled, right? And I think particularly, if you think about most of the verses, right? it's about a relationship, right? It's about Adam and a girl, and it's it's sort of describing this feeling of, like, kind of finding, and maybe she's, you know, she's breaking his heart. Could he have been anyone whatever?
01:05:56
Speaker
um And that sort of works. But then there's this weird jump in the chorus to American girls, and it feels very, to the point made before, it feels very try-hard.
01:06:08
Speaker
Like, i'm it's about a girl, but now I'm going to sort of expound about, like, some general concept about girls in America, which feels like the rest of the song doesn't support that though.
01:06:20
Speaker
It's about a person and it doesn't really, it doesn't work. We don't know why this is American. What's very American about this person. ah It's odd. It just, it like, it loses something.
01:06:32
Speaker
um And it's a, I think that's aspect of it. It's just, it's just strange. um So it's like it's an interesting attempt. And I think as like a song, if you sort of shut your brain off and don't think about the lyrics, I kind of like it. Yeah, I agree. But it's a really odd song to sort of break down.
01:06:47
Speaker
I will also note, they put together in like two thousand late 2003, early 2004, they put together an acoustic version of this they played live for a bit, which is beautiful. like It's a really... like like it really brings out the sort of, there's some lovely aspects the song that are in that acoustic version. So I think that's worth hearing if you can hear some of those live versions, but it's,
01:07:08
Speaker
Yeah, I had it down, I think it's like number 11 or something. It just feels like an experiment that just didn't quite hit. Anything else here? that's Yeah.
01:07:20
Speaker
Also, just sort of interesting that it ties to ah ah black and blue a little bit. The breakable things under your skin. so there's but which But again, black and blue makes a lot more sense if you take that line, like the tone of black and blue makes a lot more sense than the tone of American Girls.
Song Rankings and Lyrical Content
01:07:36
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:37
Speaker
Yeah, i I agree with you on a lot of this. um And I don't want to defend it. I don't want to say it's my favorite song, even though Jeff's comments upset me a little bit. No, I know what saying about the about about the lyrics and some of the ideas. I had it as my fourth. And to be honest, I was really... for Sorry, fourth least favorite. Sorry. Okay. okay um I was really...
01:08:00
Speaker
shocked and yeah, given that I bought this album the day it came out, I don't know when I realized it was the single. I don't know when I, wrote but then I was like, geez, that's, that's what they picked as the best song here.
01:08:12
Speaker
um To me, clearly that a little bit, they were trying to recapture hanging around a little bit um as being like kind of their poppy version. And where you said Brent, like the way they have the guitar the that that that part that you don't like to chris's point one thing that makes me appreciate that and i i never really loved this song but but one thing that made me appreciate a little more is that but the original version i don't know chris's i don't think the original one is the same as the acoustic i'm thinking of the one that for those of you that want to check barely out of tuesday's account again american girls from the um the hard candy live for for boys album
01:08:50
Speaker
It was recorded from Bimbo, San Francisco, 2003. That would be, yeah, that would be the acoustic, that would be the later, the rearrangement. That would be the acoustic rearrangement. yeah you're Yeah, it's not acoustic that you're thinking, or that some people might think of it, where it's just like a guitar or, you know, one guitar. it It is amazing. Like, if this was the, it's almost like the Across the Wire. you You hear that, you're like, wow, this is, so that version of American Girls, I was like, if they,
01:09:16
Speaker
had recorded that, that would probably, it might even reach my top half. I thought it was so good and what it should have been. And I just think that maybe to your point, Jeff, that,
01:09:27
Speaker
you know either underdeveloped or or were trying too hard to make it to something that it really shouldn't have been, I guess. um I don't think... yeah jeff ah Chris, I think you're exactly onto something where... I realize what Jeff's saying about it's from his a lot of it's from his point of view, but I think where they were going, but it was not developed, is...
01:09:48
Speaker
They wanted it to also, all right, they wanted it to be partly Adam and his view of the girls, but I think they also wanted it to be an anthem for American girls that they would also relate to it. It's not just about the rock star, but none of that really came across. it wet i i think as long as There's a lot of songs that are, there's a lot of songs that do that stuff much more successfully than the rest of the record.
01:10:09
Speaker
I think that's a theme that's a theme of the best songs in the record are sort of like Adam's really kind of questioning himself and throwing a lot of stuff back on himself and this song fails to like sort of or at least at least in the way it comes off sort of fails to do that it's it's a little he's like trying again he's trying to get to like was this me or was this her or maybe it's like kind of it's my fault but then he's then it just sort of goes to the chorus again and you kind of lose any of the introspection and it just sort of
01:10:40
Speaker
Chris, I think that's a great point, though, that the verses are really good. And the did the music, I like the verses on it. It's like it's that chorus that that does it. you know it's like That chorus is just so you're going in a different direction. But the verses are cool. that's like if There's a potential for a great song and in there, for sure. I like the music and everything. but and And I don't care if song is not like politically correct at all. Like that's totally, I could care less about, about that component of it. But to me, it's just like, I just don't feel like this represents who Adam Duritz is as an artist in any way.
01:11:14
Speaker
And yet it doesn't represent my fandom at all of this band and what they're about. Yeah. Other than to Rob's point, the way to chant, you made me cry at the end of a pop song, a summer pop song is very Counting Crows. That's true. very and it And it didn't get to the, I don't want to girl power, but yeah, i again, I could be reading into it. I think a little bit of those, like he was, you know, or somebody was hoping that the the quote unquote American girls would be like, yeah, we're lovable, a little bit complicated, but we're fun. And that's right you make us, you know what i mean? and You make us, yeah, we make you fight for it. and we might give you a hard time, but we're worth it in the end.
01:11:47
Speaker
That never really 100% came across, even though it's not a horrible idea. I also want to say,
Production Choices
01:11:52
Speaker
I guess this comes to the last thing about this song is it comes to ah that acoustic rearrangement that I just find amazing. Again, go listen to it, is that this is the only song.
01:12:04
Speaker
um So I do think one thing about this album is you talked about the pop shine on it, the pop scene and the producing. In general, I think it's a 10 out of 10.
01:12:15
Speaker
I think the mixing, the production music is perfect. This is the one song I think they did something wrong. They tried too hard. They didn't they couldn't have went the acoustic route. the they and And so i I'm curious how much Lily White had a hand in this, making it maybe something it's not.
01:12:33
Speaker
But even what did I have? Even Carriage, I had low. I thought the production and and mixing was and engineering was perfect yeah for what that song wanted to be. Okay, great let's move into the... the um The fourth group, moving on up, there two songs in this one. So these are songs that I guess they were the most controversial in that some of us had it like in the top five and some of us had it in the bottom five. So that's how they ended up in this group.
01:12:58
Speaker
The next one maybe I guess would be predictable based upon what people have said. um But ah two of us had it in top seven and two of us had it in the you know near the middle. And then one of us had it low, which of course would be Jeff.
01:13:11
Speaker
mr i ah jeff Jeff wrote me and said, can I have more negative rank? you know Can you more can we change the ranking? ah Anyway, just kidding. so let's ah butterfly and Butterfly in Reverse, which I had number 10. Chris, we've been agreeing on a lot, by the way. We agreed on American Girls and Butterfly.
01:13:29
Speaker
Let's go to the someone who had it the highest, which was Rob Nixon, who had it at number five, his fifth favorite song on the album. I did. ah This is one of those songs that...
01:13:40
Speaker
has grown on me so much. And I think i love the fact that they've wrote a song that should be on a Broadway musical or it could fit into The Sound of Music or Mary Poppins or there's just something so beautiful about that, the the ability to do that.
01:13:56
Speaker
And you can tell that when you know Adam and Ryan got together and finally wrote this song out, that they've decided to just go all in on this and just buy into that. And I love the building of the chorus and how it's so sort of orchestral feeling. And it's just a really beautiful song, that sort of... um lift lifts after Goodnight LA.
01:14:18
Speaker
ah think because of the, again, the placement on the album for it works well for me. You just come off the back of like ah you know really beautifully saddish feeling song and then Butterfly in Reverse comes and you're like, oh, I'm sat watching The Sound of Music and it's wonderful.
01:14:32
Speaker
Great. um And thank you. to And I do like Butterfly in Reverse. and And Adam, who obviously loves the song, brought it back. Would like to thank Rob and Brent for joining this podcast because you helped elevate it in the rankings. Brent, you also had it fairly high.
01:14:45
Speaker
Oh, you had it around the middle. So please talk about Butterfly in Reverse. Yeah, I could understand. I could tell Jeff doesn't like this song very much. And he is not alone. um a lot of people I know that are big Counting Crows fans really don't like this song.
01:14:58
Speaker
And know critics were... highly critical of it, basically saying that Adam was just listening to old albums and just spit something out that sounded like the Beatles or something. But i just to me, it's just a pretty song. It sounds good. i don't really connect with the lyrics or anything, but I think it's just a fun song.
01:15:15
Speaker
the The music is interesting. It's in 3-4 time, which Counting Crows don't do too much in 3-4 time. They only have
Performance Influence on Appreciation
01:15:21
Speaker
one on each of the first three albums. They only have two on this album. So to me, in that regard, it stands out a little bit. The other one's Goodnight l L.A., by the way.
01:15:28
Speaker
Um, so I don't know. It's nothing stands out about it. You could probably do without it, but it's, uh, to me, it sounds good. And that's, that's good enough for me, I guess. All right. I almost was going to skip Jeff because I'm worried no crows will ever come on the podcast again, but Jeff, let's go to you.
01:15:43
Speaker
um no, you had, um, this fairly low third lowest. Yep. Yeah. Number 12. Uh, you know I'm not going to beat up on it. I know Adam really likes this song a lot. Seeing it live on the tour, them play it on tour in the last couple of years has helped me, I guess, appreciate it a little bit more.
01:16:02
Speaker
um And I really love the lyrical concept of a butterfly in reverse because we're used to this idea of of the blossoming, you know, something transforming into something larger than it was. And this idea of something that was beautiful and wonderful transforming into like a smaller, lesser version of itself. I love that concept, like just lyrically. I think that's so cool.
01:16:21
Speaker
um And even Rob's point about it almost sounding like it could be come from a Broadway musical or something. So yeah I'm not here to beat up on Butterfly in reverse. I know a lot of people love it. To me, it falls in that same category of songs. that just you know They needed to spend some more time ah developing these and and sort of getting them there. but um yeah I don't really have anything else anything super negative to to say about it. Sorry, Eric.
01:16:47
Speaker
It does go on the lost column for me. There you go. That's fun. umm I always have fun teasing you. Chris, let's go to you and then I'll give my thoughts. Well, this is the thing about like the development of the lyrics. There's a great story about this song that um Adam ah was hanging out with Ryan Adams a bunch around this time, and he showed him this song.
01:17:05
Speaker
And Ryan Adams was like, that's an amazing lyric. He's like, which one? He's like, had a lot of girlfriends, I should have known them. He's like, no, it's had a lot of girlfriends I should have known then. And Adam was like, wait a minute. Yours is a lot better. That's actually, you misheard it, and that's actually, that's pretty good.
01:17:19
Speaker
um So I think there, yeah, there's, I'll always look just like that story. um But yeah, maybe maybe there was more to develop here, but it's like it's a it's a pretty song that just kind of works. I like that it's about his friend, and it's one of the, I guess, the few, you know,
01:17:36
Speaker
counting crow songs. It's not about an ex-girlfriend. Um, and it's, uh, yeah, I, I like it. Um, but I cannot, I don't love it. Again, I have it a little bit below. And interestingly, but most of my, uh,
01:17:49
Speaker
my top half here, my top eight is going to be in the top eight. So that's interesting. um But yeah, I had just a a little below my, my equator. and and And that was for most of us, actually, as I
Song Influences and Interpretations
01:18:00
Speaker
said, that's why kind of, you know, the demarcation came up that way.
01:18:03
Speaker
I had it. um I had it number 10. I've talked about before. I love that they brought it back because it was this, most people would probably put it on the list.
01:18:16
Speaker
lowest half of the album. And it was from an album 25 years ago that was their fourth most popular album. And then he brings this. but That's why I like the Crows, that they play like Children in Bloom live in this.
01:18:27
Speaker
I've said it's kind of maybe overplayed a little bit now. He said he'll keep playing it forever until he gets sick of it now. ah But, yeah, i I think it's a good song. It's definitely one of the more experimental ones, so I give him credit for that. i mean, it's interesting that Ryan Adams, he doesn't sing on it, right? He he just he just co-wrote it, um which I was a little bit surprised. It it clearly, i think, is one of the two songs. um You could argue three, but clearly there are two songs that are Beatle-esque, I think, and I think this is one of them. I mean, I and know people will, you know,
01:19:01
Speaker
criticize me for this, but I could see this as, you know, one of the, you know, the the Beatles of writing a song similar to this, the way the melodies go and some, that's just my take on it. I'm not saying that it's, you know would be their best song, but yeah, it's not great.
01:19:16
Speaker
Yeah. I happen to date a Marianne. I didn't feel the way that he feels about it, her here, but, but yeah, sometimes it's not because it's, it's, it's a, it's interpolation, right? It's Mary Louise. It's, it's for Mary Louise Parker.
01:19:29
Speaker
Okay. yeah Okay. So if you'd if you'd known a Mary Louise, you would have you would have liked her a lot better. So it would have been and it would been different. Yeah. It always helps, though. Like, at the time, maybe I only had, like, three or four serious girlfriends and one was her. So that always kind of helps when the lyrics, right, mentions X, even if it's not the right one. Like you said, it was Mary Louise.
01:19:46
Speaker
so let's ah So let's go to songs. So now we're into the... Oh, that was number nine, actually. So Butterfly in Reverse was number nine. Now we're to number eight. I think Clearly, this is the most quote-unquote controversial song because two of us had it in our top five and the other three of us had it in our bottom five.
01:20:10
Speaker
Here we go if you haven't figured it out, which would be cannon Crows' Good Time. And I will... Who had it highest? Probably we I did. It was me.
01:20:22
Speaker
Okay. You and I had it. Jeff, finally we can agree. Finally, Jeff, we can agree. Because everyone else had it in the bottom five. i like Now, I kind of moved this up lot. understand.
01:20:33
Speaker
Yeah, and I might have moved this up one or two spots because my what my best friend who got into the Crows with me, Todd, and he, by the way, he always like, oh, I hope they play this live. And even though they play it very irregularly, like one every 10 shows, they always play it when he attends. Well, whether they do it for him or not, I'm not sure.
01:20:49
Speaker
um It's definitely just for Todd. therere just for tod And this is another song that, well, I shouldn't say another one, but this is definitely a song that I rank it,
01:21:02
Speaker
high particularly because how it is on this album that i think the production quality of this song might be the best in the whole album separate from the song itself like just uh and i was trying to li i couldn't put it difficult to put into words i wrote to someone like a subtle genius song but even what i imagine is emmy's guitar solo near the end It's very muted.
01:21:25
Speaker
We're almost every other time Emmy does a solo for the Crows. It's very loud and in your face. And I almost picture them like hanging around somebody's apartment, like playing this song, even though that's not the case.
01:21:37
Speaker
um I don't know, Jeff, maybe you could. this This was the hardest for me to describe why I like it. um I just think the song itself is it's I don't even know how you describe it. Like it's kind of slow, rocky or almost bluesy. I have no idea. Jeff, please help me out here.
01:21:53
Speaker
All right. Well, first of all, i'm I'm so happy to get to talk about the songs that I like on this album because the songs that I like, man, do I like them. um And this is one of the ones that's a big win for me.
01:22:05
Speaker
It's number five, but it's hard to rank the top ones, too, because they're all so good. um First of all, the use of space in this song. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Yes, that's part of it. Part of it's the use of space. Another part of it is Matt motherfucking Malley, man. That dude is just so nice on the bass. He really is. He's, you know, as much as, um you know, realize that the history between him and Adam, boy, he's when he delivers, he delivers like no one else.
01:22:32
Speaker
um This song, one of the things that you like about it, Eric, I think is that it reminds us of baby. I'm a big star. Now it's got the, the wah-wah guitar, the distortion, the organ. It's really, um, cut from the same cloth production wise as baby. I'm a big star. Now it could have been like almost from the same production session.
01:22:51
Speaker
Um, I think maybe a little bit you know less ah ah distortion on the guitar. But another another component that I love about this album, and Lily White's production is really, i think, known for this sort of thing. And here's one of the songs where I just noted it when I was listening.
01:23:08
Speaker
and One of the cool things that a great producer does on an album like this is they don't just have the, you know, okay, verse number one, you know, and then here's verse number two, and it sounds exactly the same production-wise. They're always adding something and changing something and floating something in So here you get that little arpeggio banjo coming in just very briefly during the second verse, and then it goes away, you know?
01:23:30
Speaker
um Part of the magic of this album and the magic of bringing in somebody like Lily White to produce there are those sorts of moments and what makes it so cool. and they kind just And Charlie and Jeff, doesn't Charlie only come on really strong at one part where it's like, didn exactly. and Yes. Yes. These just beautiful. Yeah. Right. um So, and I, I also absolutely love the ending um vocals and, and line, just the lyrics from Adam i being a boy from Texas and red haired girls and all that kind of stuff. I, that that's like the opposite of a, you know, what he's doing with that sort of,
01:24:03
Speaker
um grouping everybody together in American Girls is very specific um in a way because it's talking about you know his own preferences. and I don't know. I just think it's ah an absolutely beautiful song. I love that that line. I love everything about a good time. i think and's and I could be totally wrong. i i almost saw that ending too. and That's funny. Brent will have a comment on that. I almost saw it as like a little...
01:24:25
Speaker
Okay, so correct me if I'm wrong, I always interpreted a lot of the songs, and think that's why Todd likes it. He's talked about so much that he hates being at parties and striking up conversations, and that he's not the conversationalist, even though he knows he's kind of charming. And I think some of that is like looking at everybody else at the party and being very good. And then I see the ending a little bit as being almost kind of farcical, I guess, in a way, and that he's, oh, forget about this part. Yeah, whimsical, that I'm just going to dream about this other kind of silly thing to end it. And the drums, too. I'm sorry, but the drums from and Ben Mize are so good on this song, and I think also... um
01:25:07
Speaker
Well, a lot throughout this album, but on this album, he does a great job on this song of like the drum the stuttering drum parts that are sort of going along with it. So another thing that just really stood out.
01:25:19
Speaker
All right. let's go to Rob who had it in the middle and then we'll go to Chris and Brent that had it lower. So Rob. yes so look at any other given and day this could have been higher um it's one of those songs that you can hit in different ways but i think as i've gone through the album i was conscious when i was doing my rankings that i listened to the album through as it was given to me and it sort just sits there but i love the use of guitar know people you said the drums and the banjo but i love the use of guitar and this there's the bluesy guitar in there and then there's some
01:25:52
Speaker
It feels really dirty in the middle of a little bit. And it's just so it just moves beautifully. I mean, I know it's middle of my rankings, but anywhere from this point in the album, all the songs are phenomenal in my eyes.
01:26:05
Speaker
But it's just got that nice floor to it. So I've got nothing bad to say about this song. It's just just great. It comes on and you're just like yes, yes. So good. can listen to this. And thanks, Jeff, for bringing up Why I'd Like. Brent, let's go to you, who had it as your third lowest.
01:26:19
Speaker
So, Brent. Yeah, I had a 12th, but that feels more like a subjective rating. It's just kind of how I feel about the song. I completely appreciate that the song is really interesting. It's really unique. It's the kind of song where when the critics do talk about how County Crows are just playing to their ah to bands from the 60s and such that, you know, this is this is different. This is different from the type of song you would hear from really anybody else ah from the 60s or 70s or even now.
01:26:46
Speaker
And I don't know if that's necessarily always a good thing. um ah I think why I don't love this song is i do I don't really understand what it's about. um You guys have kind of alluded a little bit to what it's maybe he's talking about the end. This feels like a total non sequitur and he's talking about loving the red haired girls.
01:27:02
Speaker
um But it may just be as simple as I'm too thick to get into my skull. What this, what the song is really, yeah um um i want to hear, what do you guys think this song is about? So there's a pull quote from Adam on this one.
01:27:14
Speaker
he eat He saw um a news ah something in like a tabloid magazine that suggested that he and Nicole Kidman were dating. Nicole Kidman would be the red-haired girl here. He had never met her.
01:27:28
Speaker
And so it's about this feeling of disconnection or something like that and imagining what it must be like to be her and to have like these sort of lies, aent like basically to be to like the world sort of projecting things on you that are just not true and just sort of like walk through the world like that.
01:27:46
Speaker
Um, I personally, struggle to relate to this song because, um, no one's, I, I, and I think maybe, maybe I don't, I don't want speak for anyone.
01:27:57
Speaker
I think maybe everyone on this podcast and probably most of the listeners to the show have not had uh, ah a tabloid suggests we were dating someone publicly. So I don't, you know, maybe that's why I struggle to emotionally connect to this song.
01:28:10
Speaker
Yeah. yeah And it's, it's, it's interesting too, because if it's about himself, the way it's phrased, you know, it's, it sounds like he's talking to a woman about a ah different man. Right.
01:28:22
Speaker
So he says he can't think of what to say. i think you listen anyway. um So if it's about himself, it's ah it's a strange way to phrase a song. Although that could apply to maybe some of his dissociative stuff, right, that he's that he's kind of looking to himself from from the outside. But that's just how I see it. Got a brand new set of wings. Oh, God, this song's so good, man.
01:28:43
Speaker
I get it. I totally get it. I totally get it. What's the song about? I think it is totally about, I mean, exactly that. It's about isolation and like you're at a party, you want to have a good time just like everybody else seems to be having a good time. But then you're standing there, you know, feeling this sense of isolation and,
01:29:00
Speaker
and disconnection, you know, it really captures that. And um yeah, I think at the end, it's almost like he wants to, you know, break away from that party, you know, have the courage to go up to her and and say, um you know, i got a brand new set of ways. Very Bruce Springsteen line at the end, you know, let's just jump in the car and drive off into the night.
01:29:22
Speaker
um is Is there something about boys from Texas liking redheaded girls? think he would be the boy from Texas. He's originally from Texas. I don't know. okay Yeah, that's... although that does sounds like it' called the bruce note right yeah boy from All the boys from Texas like red-haired dresses. All of them, for some reason. They like American girls. All the boys from Texas like American girls with red hair. There's never been... As I said, that's definitely this was the probably most controversial song on the list, and we and we see it there. um and But Rob, I agree with you. Not only do I love the song, but part of... I think if you separate what
01:29:55
Speaker
I have in my top five, and I've kind of done this for most of the albums. Maybe the exception would be Mrs. Potter's, which even though it's genius, well, maybe not the lyrics. I was going to say the music itself I could see another band doing, but sometimes I rank songs, not only songs I like, but that nobody else except the Crows could do, or or I haven't heard it a lot, so that's why I had this.
01:30:15
Speaker
number five. So anyway, let's go to the another. so this is the third group. And this is, are you not even let me talk about this one, Eric? nice with you I thought you already did. I thought you bashed it enough, but yeah, no, please, please. Sorry. I had this one rany this one last. time yeah I had this one last.
01:30:29
Speaker
This might be my least favorite recorded counting crow song. what
01:30:34
Speaker
oh yeah I find it dull and boring and I do not connect to it. It is the fact that this is one of the songs. They still kind of play live regularly from this record. And not a couple of the songs we thankfully still have to talk about.
01:30:47
Speaker
Frankly pains me. The fact that they keep selecting this and not some other like classic songs they have not played in like a decade. Like, like bothers me. I find the song...
01:30:59
Speaker
yeah i just I just find it boring. I find it just kind of sits there. It it like ruins the pacing of any live show I've seen it played at. i Man, and I'm very, I'm generally, I'm pretty positive about most Counting Crows songs at a certain level. like This is one of the few where I'm really like, i yeah, um'm I'm down on it. I'll leave i'll leave
Album Diversity and Listener Connection
01:31:20
Speaker
that there. i'll just We can move on. to I have so many more nice things to say over the next seven songs that we still have to go. So let's get there.
01:31:29
Speaker
I think that's part of the beauty of this album, though, that you can sit there and say how much you dislike this song, but then other people, like you said, Jeff sat there going, what are you talking about? That's why it's so... I agree. There's so many things in there that you can just sort of pull out from it. is It's not like the first three albums where most people will be like, these are the songs. like This is Counting Crows.
01:31:52
Speaker
This has a little bit more... um now I do. I always appreciate that, you know, come up period is that, you know, we have, you know, so many different, different ways to connect to the same, you know, album. I love this album.
Live Performance Preferences
01:32:08
Speaker
um You know, I'm sure Chris loves this album, but you know, we don't both, we don't, obviously we don't share the same sentiment about this song, but that's okay. You know, like, I think that's fine. It would be really boring if we were all like, Oh yeah, we all voted exactly the same thing and, and thought the same way. But,
01:32:24
Speaker
But and chris Chris, you just need to you know come to appreciate that those of us who ranked it highly are right. And and actually exactly Chris, I was going to say, and that's kind of what I hinted when I first brought it up. I don't think it's as powerful live, even though I still like it because I like the song. But I think it's genius comes across more in the recorded version. I was really surprised, Jeff, that and that's why I looked. I thought for sure Emmy would have been a co-writer of this song.
01:32:51
Speaker
Like ah this would have been my guess that this is the first time we had a heavy influence on the song, but but, you know, was wrong. Yeah. right credits for that um Okay. So let's go to, yeah. now Sorry to jump the gun on you, Chris. I thought you ah yeah had already said your piece.
Song Introduction and Rankings
01:33:04
Speaker
So, which is the song that it has its own. So this is all by itself. And this is number seven. I had it ranked very low. A couple of you had it high. I think it's the most mediocre category of song ever, which might knock us, which is Richard Manuel is dead. or if I could give all my love to you, who had it the highest, which is Chris, who had it number four. Let's go to Chris.
01:33:27
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So, okay. Now we're, yeah. Now you have to understand, Eric. True genius. um no I feel like this is this is the song that American Girls wants to be.
01:33:40
Speaker
like This is a song that's about... It's a beautiful pop song. about feeling totally understand ah totally alone and unable to understand why you feel so alone.
01:33:53
Speaker
To really, like, not just, like, not just, oh, it's sad that maybe this girl and I aren't going to fall in love and be together forever, but to really, like, realize that you're so disconnected, like, from yourself and and who you are that you're not even...
01:34:09
Speaker
You're not even sure how you're going to get there. And it's wrapped up in, like we talk about Hard Candy, it's wrapped up in a beautiful pop song. The guitars at the end of the tourists the chorus are tremendous.
01:34:21
Speaker
um it's I think this is just like a a great, I never, this is one that they can keep playing live. I never particularly get tired of hearing it. um I do like, they they had some acoustic versions of this kind of early on, although more of the traditional like acoustic, like stripped down kind of versions that are very nice to you. But yeah, I really liked this one.
01:34:39
Speaker
um And, and, and sort of, sort of sad that this is ah Richard Manuel was the first member of the band to die. We're recording this not long after Garth Hudson passed. Now we've got the, the last one. um So they'll probably talk. I'm sure Adam will talk about it the summer on tour. We talk about,
01:34:54
Speaker
the band and and what these guys mean. just And just also, again, just the idea here um about memory, right? Cause he's writing, i mean, Richard Manuel had died in the mid eighties, right? This is, he's writing this long in the past. And so he's 86, right? He's sort of remembering this time and maybe still feeling like he relates to that. Maybe feeling like he,
01:35:16
Speaker
didn't understand himself then and maybe he doesn't understand himself much more now. um and And that sort of journey that we've all taken of, we've all, hopefully all of us here have like improved ourselves or feel like we've improved ourselves in our adult lives.
01:35:30
Speaker
There's probably a few things where you go, I don't know. I'm probably just as bad about that as when I was 23. And, you know, um so yeah, I think it's, I think it's a ah classic and one of, one of their, ah one of the best songs on the record.
01:35:43
Speaker
Thank you. Let's go to Brent. You're the only one that had it, I guess, moderately lower like me. So Brent, please talk about, oh no, no, Rob had a little lower too, but Brent, let's go to you.
01:35:54
Speaker
I guess you had it in the middle. yeah yeah Yeah, i had it I had it fifth. I think it's a really good song. I think it's, um I can picture, you know, you if it's literally about him seeing this in newspaper, which I think it actually is, just that that feeling of reading that and then also kind of having that self-absorption to think about what's going on in your own personal life. I don't know, i kind of relate to that idea.
01:36:14
Speaker
ah Yeah, I love the guitars in it. I think it's just a great rock song. Like you said, Chris, this could have been the single instead of American Girls. ah Nothing but positive things. I think lovely.
01:36:25
Speaker
All right, let's go to Rob. Yeah, sorry, I was looking at the wrong column. So Rob, you had it in the in the middle, right? You had it number nine, which is basically in the middle, yeah. Yeah, I mean, again, it's it's this this section really here where I've got kind of American Girls and If I Could Give All Your Love. they they're They're all whatever day it is, however my mood sort of hit, it could be anywhere. But in the listening of the album, it's sort of it's just there because I think all of the other songs to come in my eyes are better songs than it not that i dislike this in any way i agree with but brett totally i think the guitar in this song is absolutely amazing and the chorus is just so singable you know you see this song live and all you want to do is sing this chorus as loud as you can i mean i've seen them a couple of times fortunately and it's just so wonderful when they play it live um yeah so it's it's not low because it's like o it's a flooding song it's low because to me what comes next is just
01:37:23
Speaker
that up.
01:37:26
Speaker
All right. Great. ah Jeff, your thoughts on Richard Manuel's dad? Yep. I put it in the wind column myself too. I like, I like this song a lot. I put million dollar chorus. That's right. This is ah a great sing along song. Apparently this was one of the songs that the band had to work on quite a bit on this album. They recorded it a number of times. They kind of kept coming back to it, you know, couldn't quite get it. And finally,
01:37:51
Speaker
you know, got got it got it where it needed to be. and So a hard won victory. i think I like it for the the same reason. um As Good Time, it kind of sounds like that. It's got that baby I'm a big star now kind of chorus or something to it.
01:38:06
Speaker
I think that song would have fit so well on this album. I keep mentioning that song, but it does sound like some of these other tracks. And I'm like, that would have been such a great song to take one of these ones out that we don't like.
01:38:17
Speaker
Yeah, i'm ah I'm a big fan. I think also like um You know, for me, i don't know. i mean, like The Last Waltz is just such a great ah concert film. If you haven't seen it, the band's last concert, which features just everyone on earth. I mean, it's like Bob Dylan comes out and Jodie Mitchell comes out and Neil Young comes out and...
01:38:40
Speaker
It's just everybody at their prime. Van Morrison comes out and it's just such an incredible concert film. If you haven't seen it, go see it. And maybe you'll appreciate just the, I don't know, the kind of sadness that you feel when somebody like Richard Manuel, who's such a passionate and incredible musician, and singer, um you know, when somebody like that passes, what, what we do, you know, sort of feel when it's somebody who's very meaningful to us, you know when a musician passes. And so, you know, this is an album without memory. And I think here's a song that really connects with this theme that, that Adam was trying to hit upon.
01:39:14
Speaker
And I love the way that he approached it too. So yeah, I really liked this song a lot. I'm glad that they keep it alive and still playing a lot too. Cause I think it's a, I think it's a real good one. I always liked it.
Musician Tributes and Industry Frustrations
01:39:27
Speaker
Yeah, as an aside to just point, I mean, to not to get this way, but as we were recording this this week, there was the fire aid benefit for LA. It was really fascinating that they had um sort of but both poles, like the old guard LA musicians and the new ones. Gracie Abrams is a much younger musician, played Long December, counting crows relevance here.
01:39:45
Speaker
But like Joni Mitchell, they are doing both sides now, who's like still, if like Joni sort of still being here. you know Adam's a big fan of that record, but just like that was a fascinating show for that reason of kind of bringing like a weirdly, oddly ah affecting like sort of five-hour concert.
01:40:01
Speaker
um But yeah, and if you haven't, if you're listening to this and you haven't seen Joni Mitchell's version of Both Sides Now from that, it is really devastatingly beautiful. um The Gracie Abram version of Long December is nice, but the Joni Mitchell Both Sides Now was incredible, truly incredible.
01:40:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny. Some people said something about the singles. I mean, the weird thing is, maybe this is, Adam, i' especially you know given about the commercial and and this kind of push, I know Adam has said he's been a couple times disappointed with record companies. I kind of think Hard Candy might have been one of those times. um no I don't think with the release of American Girls, but...
01:40:39
Speaker
Officially, they only I mean, I guess it's funny if you look at what's charted as singles, American Girls, like you said, um reach number one in the now it says Miami. I never heard Miami on the radio ever. I know they did not do a video. They did not release a CD single. So I don't know how it got charted in in the.
01:40:55
Speaker
in the top 10 of the adult chart i don't know about that and big yellow taxi i get that and then if i could give all my love officially was a single i bought the cd single they had a video for it it's them prancing around amsterdam by the way i love that video just them hanging and that's another weird one that i think it was that in between time when jim joined the band but matt was still there and they're just kind of hanging around um doing things I don't know. it's It's a cool little video, but it sounds like someone had an idea.
01:41:25
Speaker
And it did chart in the top 100 in a couple of countries, including 50 in the UK and 90 in Australia. But I don't think was played at all in the United States. and
CD Singles and Collectors Appeal
01:41:34
Speaker
Yeah. yeah oh Another one with a bunch of CD singles, where literally there's four different versions of the CD singles, including yeah two UK ones, with just a bunch of different...
01:41:44
Speaker
like uh b-sides like covers and things like that it's an interesting just if you go it's just it's interesting wikipedia page um yeah good version of um return grant parsons return of the grievous angel as the one of the b-sides on this right and the faces ooh la la right and that faces ooh la is definitely see some of these some of those seats i don't want to go too off the track but that one is and i got rid of my cd singles that version of ooh la la is definitely different than than the one that was released in Underwater Sunshine. some of I know they re-recorded, but some of them sound exactly the same.
01:42:16
Speaker
Maybe even like warp Four White Stats and Stallions basically sounds the same. But ooh-la-la, I think actually the CD single version is even a little better. um I didn't talk about Richard Manuel. don't... Where have this as my...
01:42:28
Speaker
Third lowest, I can't. um i don't you So Chris, the one thing I definitely will agree is I really do like the lyrics of this song. I think the lyrics might even be in the top five of of of this album.
01:42:41
Speaker
And yeah. Even some of the, you know, I guess the simple, yeah, the idea of reading about the death and you were sleeping next to me, I knew you were gone. And even the clock telling the time. i don't know.
01:42:52
Speaker
Yeah, I like it. i It's funny. Two of the things that you guys love about it, which is the chorus and the guitar, is is are about the only two things that brings it down for me. I don't know why. So but that's just it's just how I interpret it. And, yeah, one of those songs that they play and I like hearing live, but I wish they would rotate some of these other songs in.
01:43:09
Speaker
Yeah. So, ah okay.
Top Song Rankings and Musical Contributions
01:43:11
Speaker
Well, that leads us to the top six, which is clearly in two categories. And this was generally all of us, with a few exceptions, had all of these songs in our top six.
01:43:26
Speaker
So here we go. Oh, actually, just remember two points I did want to make about Richard Emanuel. One is when i was talking about the record company, Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he said once that he just wanted to call it Richard Emanuel's Dead. And I think it was the record company or someone like, because of the because of the chorus, we should call it one. I should give all my love to you or whatever. and he's like, OK, we'll call it both. And I think he kind of has that as like.
01:43:53
Speaker
like a tongue in cheek kind of screw you to the record company to have them both in there. Cause now it's even more unwieldy. Yeah. so So what'd you say, Chris? It's super long. It looked insane on an out. Well, and actually if you look at the album cover of the single, it just says, if I could give all my love.
01:44:09
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. I think he kind of did that as a, you know as a screw you a little bit. Cause he wanted to call it Richard Manuel and he usually sticks to his guns against the record companies. ah so And the other thing i wanted to say is I could be totally wrong about this, but as like a diehard Charlie fan who you know regrets I only said one sentence to him in my life, that um I think I've said this before, but I think there's a clear... Like, obviously, he's important to all of these songs in every album, but the way someone's either mixing it or the production...
01:44:42
Speaker
I always thought, definitely now that you don't hear Charlie's parts as much, you have to really be a band big fan of the band or have a really keen ear to see hear what he's adding to certain songs in the first three albums. where
Appreciation for 'Holiday in Spain'
01:44:57
Speaker
i hear I think every album after that,
01:45:00
Speaker
you can clear and I think that's, you know, a mixing and engineering. But Richard Manuel is just another example of that where you can, at least my mind, you can really hear what he's adding musically in the background and you don't need to be super sophisticated.
01:45:13
Speaker
Okay, so here we go. Number six. So all of us had this in our, let's just see, the lowest people were, let's say like Chris had it the lowest and he still had it one, two, three, four, five, six, okay, seven. So everybody had this in the top seven, which is what Adam calls their lullaby, Holiday in Spain.
01:45:33
Speaker
So let's start with the person. Jeff and Rob had this the highest. Jeff and Rob both having it at number three. So let's start with Jeff. Holiday in Spain, yeah, right. Well, um I think it can be easy to forget how good a song like Holiday in Spain is because they play it so much. And and um um to me, this is kind of like,
01:45:59
Speaker
I think it has the best lyrics on the whole album. and I think the lyrics are incredible. um I think it's almost like ah ah long December um on that level.
01:46:11
Speaker
Like I said, the album to me gets underrated and you have a song like Holiday in Spain. It's like, to me, I guess the band obviously prizes the song, but to me it's like, yeah, this is this is really like ah quite an achievement as a song, a real masterpiece in my opinion.
01:46:27
Speaker
um Adam the Poet. Okay, that's it for part one of our deep dive into hard candy and our ranking of the songs. We'll continue in a few weeks. Thank you for joining us here on Sullivan Street. See you then.