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Shooter Games Discussion
263 Plays3 years ago
Join Fraser (Satsunami) and Adam as they discuss the genre of shooter games. From Call of Duty to Fortnite, the duo discuss their experiences as well as what truly makes a good shooter game.
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Transcript
Introduction and Welcome
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chad Tsunami. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chad Tsunami. I'm Sad Tsunami and today I am joined by my very good co-host once again, Adam. Hello there. Welcome, welcome.
00:00:29
Speaker
Hi there. It's good to be... In fact, it's great to be back after I've not been able to attend the last couple of weeks, thanks to goddamn life. But it's good to be back. Yeah. Well, life and research and this topic thoroughly to do. Yeah, I've done that the last few weeks. I've been hermated away, pouring through the archives, looking at the manuscripts. Yeah, that was the real reason you went away. The real reason is I'm a massive nerd.
00:00:57
Speaker
yeah what you can't see guys is you know like the big bushy beard that Adam now has because he's been like into the into the mountain yeah into the mountains looking for the smell of the smell of monster from my lips i've stayed up for a few weeks
00:01:18
Speaker
Oh goodness me. Anyway, yeah, we better move on. Otherwise we're going to be on this joke for like the whole podcast episode.
Evolution of Shooter Games
00:01:26
Speaker
So yeah, as you can see, today we are talking about genre games that really holds a special place in our hearts, doesn't it? Oh definitely. That of course being the very humble shooter game, which ever since the, you know, Modus Pong 2.
00:01:42
Speaker
to now ecology and battlefield yeah it's it's a genre that hasn't really died has it since it came no it's got stronger yes it's just there's so many iterations of it but before we go into and we start talking about our you know our hot dates on shooter games what do we mean by a shooter game
00:02:07
Speaker
Well, when somebody says to me a shooter game, what I instantly think of is a game where shooting is the major activity and the focus of the game. Now, that probably seems quite obvious, but I use that as a thing to kind of distinguish it from other games. So for instance, in games like Grand Theft Auto,
00:02:25
Speaker
like Mass Effect, Fallout, Red Dead Redemption. You do a lot of shooting in those games, but I would argue they're not actually shooters because shooting isn't the... You don't go into... If you're going to play a Mass Effect game, the chances are you're not going into that game playing it because there's shooting in it. You want to explore the universe, you want to develop relationships with your crew, do all that kind of thing, explore the galaxy, things like that. While with something like Call of Duty, I'm pretty sure you're going into that game because you want to shoot things and you want high content action.
00:02:54
Speaker
So that's something I would use to like separate those out as well. And I'd say the same for kind of games that have like vehicle kind of combat. You know, you could maybe argue things like Star Fox maybe as a shooter, but I would tend to put that more as vehicle, a kind of space flight game, but then it's become a, I'm a shooter purist. So I will have it diluted. I would say it was more of an adventure game. That's a fair point. Cause that's a fair point.
00:03:19
Speaker
Yeah as you were saying it's like trying to figure out what is definitively a
Defining Shooter Game Genres
00:03:25
Speaker
shooter. Like you were saying Red Dead Redemption like there's a lot of shooting in that game but you would class that more as a sandbox game because I mean there is obviously the shooting but it's not like the central focus of the game. You're more or less focusing on you know the adventure aspect, exploring and things and as the cowboy films have once told me they're rooting to an adventure
00:03:47
Speaker
And that's why I don't watch many cowboy films, can you tell? I've written and tuned in them for you. Yeah, no, exactly. It's just it's not enough at all. No, not in this day and age. So, yeah, basically the games that have more or less like a central focus, I suppose, on this idea of shooting and things. And we're going to like go into that a bit more later on.
00:04:12
Speaker
but one of the other things that we kind of have to talk about is the evolution because let's face it when you think of like modern shooters or shooting games in general you can't just think of one like setting can you? No. Because I mean of course you've got your Call of Duty and Battlefield historical World War II shooters you've got your modern shooters with like again you've got Call of Duty as well but I mean even if you look at like
00:04:40
Speaker
I mean, I don't know if you would classify this as a shooter game, like Superhot. I would classify it as a shooter game, but because it is the primary focus of that. And again, I know there's like, there's some like melee combat as well, but shooter games have melee combat. So, you know, I think that's, I would, I would definitely classify it as a shooter game.
00:04:57
Speaker
especially, again, go back to Call of Duty because it seems as if Call of Duty is one of those ones that's perfectly encapsulates this journey because their franchise, same, in fact, no, not the same with Battlefield, because Call of Duty went from being a historical shooter, then it kind of evolved into a modern shooter, then it went all the way into the future, and now it's kind of raining itself back into, like, its modern and, you know, like, historical roots.
Core Elements of Shooter Games
00:05:26
Speaker
So, I mean,
00:05:27
Speaker
like when we talk about shooters we can't just like look at it through just one perspective can we? No no you've got to as you say you've got to look I mean I think there's obviously like some core elements that are the same regardless of you know time period for a shooter like at the end of the day whether you're getting playing a historical one or a futuristic kind of shooter you're still looking for that kind of exciting action or tension that's within a shooter but I definitely agree that you
00:05:53
Speaker
They are they are separate kind of genres and everything that you can differentiate them out. No there's just so much because it's weird like do you think like on the surface do you think people underestimate shooter games like whether it's a first person or a third person do you think there's like this perception that a lot of them are quite you know like simplified in terms of gameplay and things like that?
00:06:16
Speaker
Well, I definitely think so. I definitely think there is a kind of bias out there. And I do think as well, I do think, I agree that people do have to look at them as being quite simplistic. I think is what people look at them as being, you know,
00:06:29
Speaker
You kind of have an image maybe of the people who play some of these games, especially if you call it Jews, whatever, you have a kind of stereotype. And that's not to say that, you know, that person, that stereotype isn't rooted in truth, because it totally is. But I do think it can kind of color, you know, and I think people can miss out on the nuances of a shooter.
00:06:47
Speaker
But I suppose maybe that's other games as well. I'm trying to think of some game genres that I'm not as well versed in. Maybe something like a JRPG. I don't particularly play that many JRPGs. So I don't really know all the nuances. And I suppose somebody's not really played G2 games that come on the surface look quite, as you say, look quite simplistic. And you're like, what's up?
00:07:04
Speaker
point, you know, I can't really see anything distinguishing these ones. Because I suppose for me that would be racing games, because beyond Mario Kart and things, I'm not big into games like Forza and things like that, so I kind of just see it as 0.8 to B.
00:07:22
Speaker
you know that's where you're getting from but there is like so much more to like a lot of racing games and things but you know on the surface it's because I'm not so I suppose the right word is well versed in these kind of games
00:07:38
Speaker
Well, totally. That's the
Nostalgia and Popularity in Shooter Games
00:07:40
Speaker
thing. I think as an example, I would say if you were to look at taking those three categories of shooters, historic, modern, and futuristic, I think if you look at them, the thing that really evolved as shooters went into a modern setting and into a futuristic setting was sort of the gadgetry.
00:07:54
Speaker
they kind of went around with it and that became a big focus and that was a big thing that people looked for. So you wanted weapons that would mess with gravity and gadgets that would make gameplay more vertical and everything like your jump jets and things like that that weren't really in historical for obvious reasons.
00:08:14
Speaker
historical shooters and things but it really did and with that it kind of made nuances to gameplay and actually makes playing something like Titanfall very very different from playing you know one of the Medal of Honor games from the early 2000s. Would you say nostalgia though is quite a big factor as well in kind of boosting like the popularity of a franchise?
00:08:33
Speaker
Oh, I definitely think so. I mean, you just have to look at how excited people get when developers say, oh, we're taking something back to its roots. You know, that's always something that really, you know, like I, I think I was, did I, did I not post something recently about how, how I was like, I'm back at set boys. I'm back on the, I'm back on the call of duty hype train. They're going back to world war two again. I'm the prime example of some of this because these were the games that I, I grew up playing. These were the games that introduced me to shooters and gave me like a lifelong.
00:08:56
Speaker
love of shooter games and so anytime that I hear like something like a series like Call of Duty is going back to World War Two that it just it gets me it's me all excited and I get I fall right back into that nostalgia so oh no doubt because it is like if I have to hear the words and I don't think it just applies to Call of Duty but if I have to hear the words boots on the ground like one more time
00:09:17
Speaker
Because I do remember that time where it was like everything was a space shooter, even college, even, I don't know, Battlefield never really went that way. Has it got one? It has got one. Has it? It came about, I think, a bit earlier than the kind of futuristic trend went to, but it's called, it's called like Battlefield 2142. Oh, of course. It didn't do very well and it never quite come back to that.
00:09:43
Speaker
god that's awful because i actually do know about that game and i completely forget about it because i was thinking more of like the modern series of battlefield where they went from battlefield four and then they did one called battlefield hardline i think it was called yeah and it was yeah i did not enjoy that one at all
00:10:03
Speaker
i tried it i really tried and i was just like no this is really not my cup of tea so i'm thinking in the nostalgia factor again but even like with licensed games there seems to be like a lot of games especially things like you know star wars james balland you know the kind of typical film and oh yeah they're both films so yeah like film genres that will gravitate to this kind of genre of gaming because i mean don't get me wrong star wars is so massive that you can literally make any game
00:10:32
Speaker
I mean they've got racing, they've got tactical games, RPGs, yeah they've just got a whole blanket. But I mean one of the ones for that that's obviously one of the most popular is like Battlefront 2. Whether it's the new one or the old one they're both well regarded now even with the controversy for the new one. I think that's kind of subsided now and everyone's back in the bandwagon and everything and it is surprising like how many people are into that now.
00:11:01
Speaker
Yeah, it just shows it shows what can, you know, play as a case study for a game that you can turn around and if you actually go back and you know like put focus on your gameplay and make your game a fun and rewarding experience then yeah people will come back to it. Before like we go on to like you know kind of talk about what makes like a good shooter game I've got another question for you and no pressure but you're live.
Dominant Gaming Genres Over Time
00:11:24
Speaker
sorry. So you know how every so often, especially in gaming, there's always that one genre that dominates. Like when GTA 5 came out it was like shooters, nowadays it's kind of battle royale games or that's kind of starting to peter out. There'll be a new genre coming over the horizon but same with FPS games it is weird because you would think with shooter games it's just like oh that's a shooter game you know and you don't really have to look deeper into it but if you actually do you know get over that hurdle of it just being a shooter
00:11:54
Speaker
You know, as we were saying, there's so many settings that you can put a shit a game in. So as we said, we've got like, you know, the First of War, you know, that game Darkest of Days that you were talking about a couple of weeks ago. That seems to be like a perfect mix of everything. Yeah, certainly. Certainly. They'd certainly try to branch out the historical.
00:12:11
Speaker
but also bringing in, it's that kind of mashup of historical settings, but you're taking a machine gun to the American Civil War just for laughs, just for equals. Actually, as you do. As you do. We can probably see this in the past, but your hindsight's a wonderful thing. Would you say that different settings in shooter games can cause each game to thrive? For example,
00:12:35
Speaker
If you've got to shoot a game like Halo and you've got to shoot a game like COD that's set in like, well I say modern times but you know like 2006 modern times. It is weird isn't it that even though those two are like completely different games you know they can still coexist with one another.
00:12:52
Speaker
Oh, definitely. It is a wide umbrella, certainly. I mean, shooter games also encompass this first-person shooter games, third-person shooter games. It's a very wide net that I think you can cast and you'll gather a lot of very different...
00:13:07
Speaker
of course obviously they all share similar characteristics to next time but you will get a wide variety of games like not just even his settings but if you think as well there's your kind of Michael Bay type action kind of movie shooters the one all about he's like but you've got a lot of tactical shooters as well like your rainbow sixes yeah things like that you know you obviously have your ones that focus on kind of big operatic battles and everything like sort of like your star wars battle fronts um your battlefields as well but then there's also ones as well that narrow it down and make it a much more like you know much more intimate
00:13:37
Speaker
kind of small, smaller kind of scale thing.
Variety and Settings in Shooter Games
00:13:41
Speaker
And an example of that is completely, I'm completely blanking on one, but it's not something like rainbow six as well. Like that on the surface is white. It's like three or four people or something like that. And it's much more small scale, but you know, it doesn't make it any less exhilarating or anything. So there is a complete wide variety of shooter games. And definitely I agree. Like you're going to, you know, as I say, you're going to put cash in it out. You're going to get a lot back and I'm sure you'll find something that you like.
00:14:03
Speaker
I mean it's a bit like so it's kind of reminding me of what Craig and I were talking about last week about indie games when just that term indie game it's like right it's an indie game but you know what does that mean and I suppose technically it's the same with shooter games like obviously you know like you can say on face value oh it's a game you shoot in yeah it's like well done Dr Satsu you know
00:14:27
Speaker
But like, as we were saying there, and as you just said, you know, you've got your first person shooters, you've got your third person ones, you've got your cover based ones, you know, like so many sub genres within it. And I mean, even games like, I don't know if you would include, because technically it is like a survival holder, but like Left 4 Dead. Yeah, I'd say that as a shooter game. Yeah, like, I mean, the focus technically is like, you would say like, survival holder, but... That's the thing, like, again, like, I know I talked about when I said these are some of the games I would discount as shooters,
00:14:56
Speaker
But that's a very artificial boundary that I impose. You could argue, because I would say Left 4 Dead's a shooter, but at the same time, I wouldn't say something like Resident Evil is a shooter, but you could definitely argue and say, well, it's got all the hallmarks and characteristics, and you probably could make a very good case that it's a shooter, but it's not something that I associate as a horror game rather than that.
00:15:16
Speaker
a shooter game, but that's just not an official boundary. So again, if we're honest, shooting is the major activity of, I would say, the majority of games. I think most games have shooting in some form or another. So I think it is. That's why I think it is the biggest umbrella term, or one of the biggest.
00:15:33
Speaker
Because I mean even if you look at games, and I can't believe I'm bringing Banjo Kazooie back into this from the depths of hell, bringing it back up. But it's like in some of those, like I'm not saying Banjo Kazooie's like a shooter game by any means, I'm not, but there's like levels in I think the sequel as well where it's like you can basically use Kazooie the
00:15:53
Speaker
bird that you carry around as like a shooting weapon and it's kind of small things like that it's all for puzzle solving you know and all of that but it's like it goes to show that even in games like that you know like incorporate some kind of you know shooting mechanic it's not just and I mean it doesn't have to necessarily be like a shooting mechanic it can be you know having to aim something and throw it or which can I just say is usually the worst
00:16:36
Speaker
there was the film and there was the book series as well. But I always remember there was one level in it that just, it is weird because it's a game that you can definitely sit down and complete it in a day, which is fine. But there was one level that really annoyed me where you had to aim your
00:16:43
Speaker
the worst thing ever.
00:16:52
Speaker
I can't remember what it was if he had a slingshot or something that wasn't in the films or the books you know it was just like artificially you had to like shoot things down and it was the worst thing ever because all these like things are all these targets are going by and you're just shooting everything and you're like I can't do it I can't do it it does seem it does seem to be like that because that is funny you saying that and
00:17:13
Speaker
It reminds me of some of the movie tying games they used to make in the late 80s, early 90s, when they would take these games and then almost make them into shooters because it was the easiest game forms to make, even though it didn't really make sense in terms of the... I'm trying to remember. I'm sure the Back to the Future game or something, when they made Back to the Future Part 3, it was turned into a shooter and you're like, why? It's the Wild West, but it doesn't do that much.
00:17:37
Speaker
what I call in the film but it's because it's such a ubiquitous like you know like I think there's so many shooting games so I think it's almost naturally like well let's just let's do that let's take this franchise and put it into this you know this box of quote-unquote shooter so yeah it's just a funny thing you're absolutely right though because I mean if you look at like James Bond that's like one of the more like popular examples I suppose yeah
00:18:02
Speaker
of like a game franchise that was a film and then they translated it but it was like a good translation it wasn't like they they just like slapped a coat of paint onto you know well it started off as a good it started off as a good some some of the more recent James Bond I'll probably bring up one of them as we go on but definitely no initially you took very good transition
00:18:24
Speaker
Yeah, which brings us on to our next point because I'm actually curious to hear what you have to say about this.
What Makes a Shooter Game Good?
00:18:29
Speaker
You've kept your card close to your chest on this one. I must say. Basically we were discussing this off stream and we were discussing like what really makes a shooter game good. So we've come up with three categories that we're going to judge this in. So the three of them are story, gameplay and the idea of
00:18:52
Speaker
it being either a single or multiplayer game. So we're gonna kind of go into that. The first thing of course we're gonna start on is the story. Honestly I am ready to jump into this one.
00:19:04
Speaker
If you want to start, I don't mind if you ask. No, no, I'll let you start first because I'm going to be ranting a lot probably about this. Oh well, I'll make my little bit quick so we can get into that. Oh no, no, take your time. So yeah, what makes a shooter game good in terms of story?
00:19:23
Speaker
Do you know what? It's funny, just before I answer that question, it's actually really funny because when I brought these categories out, I went into this and I was thinking, what's the most important thing for making a good shooter? And in my mind, I was like, well, it's clearly gameplay. It has to be gameplay. But then the more I thought about it and the more I started to reminisce on the shooter games that I love and that are my favorites, I'm like, no, the story, I think, is actually the most important aspect. Like with so many other videos, I think the story is the most important aspect.
00:19:47
Speaker
Because I believe that you could take a shooter that has sort of mediocre or problematic gameplay. And if you put a good story in there, like it will elevate it and you'll want to push you and you won't even care. I think of something like, I think of one of my favorite games of all time, Bioshock Infinite, which I would class as a shooter. I love virtually every single thing about Bioshock Infinite. I think it's an absolute masterpiece of a game. I know it's quite divisive, but that's my personal opinion.
00:20:11
Speaker
But I think if there's one criticism, you can fairly level at it. I do think the gameplay is a bit problematic at points, and it is a bit repetitive. It's not the best shooter gameplay out there, I'd say. But for me, the story was just so fantastic that I just couldn't care. I don't care. I'll go play Bakugan, but now I don't care about the gameplay problems. It's amazing. Another game, another one of my favorites is Spec Ops Online, which on the surface is just such bland third-person shooting. It really doesn't add anything new, but oh my God, that story is amazing.
00:20:37
Speaker
It's honestly one of the best stories in gaming, I think. So just thinking about what makes a good video game, sorry, a good shooter story. It's funny because I think for a lot of video game stories, I think it's really important, really important for you. It's important to have a focus on character.
00:20:52
Speaker
especially for things like RPGs, you know, or these kind of type of open world games. But for me with a shooter, I almost think characters are actually not as important, especially if you're playing them in a first-person perspective. I don't think it's always the most important to have like a, you know, a really well-developed character and everything that you might need for a game that's in a third-person, you know, perspective. There's something like, something like Bioshock, like the character you play is not Jack. It's just like,
00:21:17
Speaker
They don't ever hear them speak, I don't think, in the game. They get backstory and stuff, but they're not a particularly well-developed character. But that game has so much... The story of that game and the world that you're in is the real hook and the thing that you get invested in. Yeah, I think as well, shooters are an interesting...
00:21:33
Speaker
interesting kind of video game genre to actually tell very like to tell really intriguing and actually like thought-provoking stories as i said like one of the and i just mentioned it just a few minutes ago but a game like spec ops align i think has maybe one the most innovative and like thought-provoking stories i've ever seen in the video game because it really challenges it really like delves into you know it's a lot about morality and sort of war and
00:21:57
Speaker
themes like that, but it also really delves into what it's like playing a shooter game and what you're supposed to feel, and the numbing experience then really makes you challenge that. So I think a shooter is actually a really, really interesting format to try and tell an innovative story and to try and tell something with twists and turns and to really make you think. But again, I think the most important thing is just to get a story that invests you, because that's what's going to drive you through. So I don't know if I've actually answered your question or not. Big ramble there, but that's sort of my initial thoughts.
00:22:28
Speaker
Now I'll be expecting the thesis on my desk on Monday. My virtual desk, can I just say? Yeah, there's social distancing. Yeah, no, I completely agree. Funny you should mention that, because I was thinking of Bioshock Infinite as well. I played that, I think.
00:22:44
Speaker
Oh, a good couple of months ago in stream. And I absolutely love, I agree with you 110%. I love the story of that. Like at the end, I kind of just like put down my controller and thought, wow, this is just such a good game. Yeah, the gameplay did not entice me whatsoever. Like the gameplay was all right. I mean, they had its interest in moments, but I do agree. It felt repetitive and then, oh, it was just another coat of paint on things and you know.
00:23:11
Speaker
the story definitely saved that and I do think like for a shooter game I think a lot of people underestimate you know having or needing a good story for a shooter game because one of the examples I can think of off the top of my head is Halo 4. I think personally that Halo 4 in terms of gameplay is infinitely better than its predecessors so like the fact you can run yeah no you can run can you like without oh yeah yeah
00:23:38
Speaker
yeah it's like things like you can run and everything and it just it plays really well same for the fifth game which we've got a whole episode on that if you want to listen to it but the long and short of it is like the gameplay itself is solid but the story is just awful and that's the thing though it's like do you know what it reminds me of it reminds me of school trying to make something fun to do you know but you know inherently
00:24:04
Speaker
the thing that they're trying to teach you isn't fun so it's like oh go shoot these because the grand wizard in the center of the Sun you're like I don't
00:24:14
Speaker
I don't care. I'm sorry. I just don't care about this story. You know, like, especially for real. And that's a little other rant. It does. It makes you feel as if you're not playing a game. You're struggling through a game. Yeah. If you know what I mean. I know that sounds like a weird thing to say, but it's the whole point of a game is you're supposed to either be having fun or kind of having like an experience that you can go through. And you know, I mean, you know, that way when you had like the
00:24:41
Speaker
again going back to school you had like the kind of I don't know why I'm thinking water cooler chat but you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah the playground chat the playground chat yeah and you would like be talking to people saying oh did you play that new level of like say time splitters which again that's another one where the gameplay is not as good especially like time splitters too and yeah especially now
00:25:06
Speaker
Yeah, like the, oh god, the gameplay did not age well in that game but like the story in it is just so fun and the characters are so fun and I think that's another important thing which brings me onto my rant. Characters, I think going back to one of your points you were saying like the main character should, I mean what you're saying they should basically be like a blank slate.
00:25:27
Speaker
It doesn't have to be. For me personally, I don't think it matters as much having a really likeable and well-developed character. You might need something like a Red Dead Redemption or another game like that. I personally don't think you need to have that in a shooter.
00:25:48
Speaker
especially a first person it's a bit of a weird one because it's like you know when you're playing through the game and you know you have full control over this character and then all of a sudden like the game takes your character into a cutscene and it acts in a way that you wouldn't act
00:26:03
Speaker
like so then that takes away the kind of breaks the immersion of hold on a minute I would have walked into the room like that you know but I see what you mean it's like probably not the main you know maybe it's not like the main focus in terms of characters but I think
00:26:20
Speaker
definitely supporting characters are very important when it comes to shooter games. And I'm going to roll back onto an example that I don't think I've been able to run on Chat Tsunami about, so I am very happy to announce my premiere.
00:26:38
Speaker
my rant on Battlefield 4. I hate it. I absolutely loathe this game 100% and every time, I went into the chat, this is how bad it was, I went into a video to see what other people thought about the game and all of the chat comments and YouTube videos all seem very positive about the game.
00:27:00
Speaker
And I was like, but why though? Like, and I'm not even like going into the multiplayer. This is solely for the single player. I absolutely hated the campaign. If it's even the worst code, I'm gonna say this, and this is my hot take, even the worst Call of Duty campaign was better than Battlefield 4. I'm gonna put that out there. And the reason I hated it so much was one character called Irish in it. Now initially, like, basically you play as like a squad of, is it marines or like, what is it?
00:27:29
Speaker
I've not played Battlefield 4, I'll say. I presume it's usually Marines. After a minute, I haven't played it in a while either. Yeah, maybe it's Marines. I haven't played this in years. I'm going to preface this as well. So if I get any details wrong, then yeah, apologies in advance. But essentially you go through the game with that. And this is how I remember it, so I could be wrong. But the way I remember it is you go through the game with this squad of Marines and
00:27:58
Speaker
your I think it's your captain or your leader gets killed. So in the first mission you get grouped together with this guy Irish and every single time he has a chance to fuck up he fucks up like royally and hard and it's really infuriating as like you know like I'm going back to that thing of oh my character would never do that like you don't get the chance to tell him off he just stands up and he's just like oh I'm gonna do this um
00:28:27
Speaker
I'm gonna you know like I'm gonna go away and you know disobey orders and that's what he does he disobeys orders and it ends up that you get I think you get not court-martialed but you get disciplined for it so then you get a new captain because he went away and did his own thing and even when he's got a new captain he starts just
00:28:50
Speaker
talking back the entire time and then the turning point that really infuriated me was there's a bit in Shanghai where you're sailing away and I can't remember there's like a explosion that goes off and you're supposed to be on a secret mission where you're supposed to be getting a VIP, getting them out, that's what you're supposed to do in the game and
00:29:15
Speaker
then this guy starts yelling to all the people that are trying to evacuate and say, oh, come over here, we've got a battleship over here. Morality aside, it's like, what are you doing? It's just, it is absolutely baffling. And again, I'm not here to debate.
00:29:37
Speaker
whether he should have or shouldn't have done that. But it's the fact that every single time he does what he wants as a soldier, you know? And it's weird, could you think that would be something that the main character was doing? But it's almost as if you've got like a window into this, you know, alter protagonist's life. Are you like, what is this game?
00:29:56
Speaker
and I seem to be the only one that has issues with this guy because it's just so infuriated and that's what put me off that game entirely because maybe it's just I haven't played like the other games but I can never get invested in Battlefield like stories.
Importance of Storytelling in Shooters
00:30:11
Speaker
I played Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 3 is by far one of my favorite like multiplayer games which I know we'll come on to but in terms of the story I felt it was very very weak
00:30:20
Speaker
you know like just your genetic guy's got a nuclear bomb let's stop the bad guy and it's like you're boring it's like you're very very boring and it's like i don't know whether the developers thought the gameplay we told it because here's the thing
00:30:37
Speaker
Like, I know we're gonna go and talk about gameplay in a minute, but when the gameplay fails, like, games are gonna age. There's absolutely nothing you can do about that. Like, as soon as you make a game, relatively, the mechanics of it are gonna be set in stone. Maybe there'll be, like, a couple of tweaks and things, but relatively... I mean, if you look at Call of Duty, for example, you know, they've got updates and things to change the guns, but inherently, you point and you shoot. Like, that is... that is the core gameplay.
00:31:05
Speaker
Like, that's always gonna be the same, that's gonna age. But at least you think if you've got a good story to kinda back that up. Like, I mean, if you look at one of the games I was playing the other day was Destroy All Humans, which technically I would class that as a shooter, probably.
00:31:22
Speaker
I would probably classic because I don't quite know what else I would classic. It's a really weird blend of genres for that one. But if you look at it from the perspective of being a shooter game, I tried doing the final boss. Could not do it.
00:31:41
Speaker
I just kept getting my butt kicked. I don't know why it was because I didn't have the right upgrades or what it was, but I just kept getting my butt kicked. But at the same time, I can't look at the game and say, oh, it's, you know, oh, it's terrible completely. I can't completely write it off. And the reason being, I can't write it off is because it had such like a good story to it. And even though it's been remade and everything, at least the story holds up rather than, you know, like.
00:32:06
Speaker
for example Battlefield or even some of the worst Call of Duty's it's like you can go back and play it and just be like completely bored and be like well why am I playing that when I could play the other ones you know later on in the series because I mean that is a worry when games evolve so much that the past games are kind of left behind.
00:32:26
Speaker
And it's like, as long as it's got a good story that can kind of prop it up, at least for single-player ones, but as long as it can like prop it up, then that should hopefully... Like I'm not saying it's like a fix-all solution, but it's like, you know, the idea of like duct-taping, you know, a hole in the middle of your boat or something and just sailing along. Yeah, it's like you're slowly sinking, but you kind of think, it's okay, it's okay.
00:32:52
Speaker
can make it out. We've got this, we've got this. And yeah, it's, I personally think, like, definitely a story has to keep it afloat, characters as well. And I mean, don't get me wrong, like, sometimes you just want, you know, a mindless game, which is what took me aback, I have to admit, with you're the new Black Ops game, Cold War, because I was just expecting, you know, just a straight
00:33:18
Speaker
go from point A to point B, kill this, kill that, blah blah blah. And then they introduced RPG elements and things like that. All of which really didn't matter in the end. And they're not super. Yeah, I mean some of them did. There was one mission that was... That's a weird thing. One of the best missions in the game wasn't even a shooter. It was like trying to poison some tea which, you know...
00:33:40
Speaker
very sore spot for us Brits, you know. But, yeah, it's definitely something that, like, as long as you're engaged in it, I think, definitely as long as you're engaged, which kind of brings me on to the next point about gameplay.
Gameplay Mechanics in Shooter Games
00:34:00
Speaker
So what do you think in terms of, like, gameplay makes a good shooter? You know, other than being competent,
00:34:07
Speaker
Yeah. Well, no, definitely. You want a good, you need to have that good core kind of gameplay loop. And it's funny because we discussed this point a little bit earlier at the beginning where you asked me about, so you just have this kind of image of being simplistic and not developing. And I agree that as image, but I actually think ironically that I think
00:34:25
Speaker
The most important thing for a shooter gameplay to have is simplicity, to be honest. I think having... It's not to say that you can't add things to it. You can't add bells and whistles and everything. But I think at its heart, you are coming to a shooter game to shoot things and you want that to be good. And I think the simpler it is,
00:34:43
Speaker
that sort of core mechanic of you know the gun goes bang bang and the bad men die you know I do think the simplicity is the best is the best for that and then you can build on top of that if you want to add things on to it I think as well an important thing is you really want some kind of weight to your weapons you want to feel like you know if you're shooting a weapon you're like wow this is doing damage you know this I'm sure there's like
00:35:05
Speaker
I've certainly played games, and I'm sure you've played games as well, shooter games where you get weapons and you're like, this just feels pathetic. There's some where, when someone's with grenades in some games and you throw a grenade, it's just like a tiny explosion. What the hell was that? And it's just kind of deflating. You want good weight. You want something like Doom 2016, where the weapons feel incredibly meaty and you fire that super shotgun. And demons explode into giblets. And you want things like that. So I especially think about gameplay.
00:35:35
Speaker
for a shooter, sorry, you want that weight to your weapons and everything. I think as well, I think it's important to get gameplay that matches your setting, kind of going back to our early discussion about different settings in shooter gameplays. So if you are doing a futuristic one, it makes sense to have, you know, it makes sense to have jet packs and maybe wall running and things that kind of broaden the game space out and make it more horizontal, make it more vertical.
00:35:59
Speaker
like that. But if you are setting it on a more kind of quote unquote boots on the ground, a modern or a more kind of historical setting, then you do want that maybe a more kind of simplistic, like a more kind of weighty slugging it around, you know, crashing into bits of bits of wall and things like that. You want that kind of one. So that was one of the things I had a problem with that caused you world war.
00:36:18
Speaker
too is I felt like as much as they'd gone back to a World War II setting, they kind of kept the Michael Bay-esque kind of action from the more kind of the black ops and the kind of advanced warfare and series like that. And I just felt it didn't gel properly. I think one thing about Game Planner Shooter is I think there is a big danger of over-designing it. And what I mean by that is I think especially for sequels, I think you can make it. You can design a really, really good competent and really fun
00:36:47
Speaker
with really good weighty gameplay and really fun gunplay and everything. But then I feel like when they get a sequel, sometimes they're like, oh, well, we need to do something. We can't just leave it. You know, it's perfect. We're going to tinker with it and trying to design it. And something like Doom Eternal, for me, like I loved Doom 2016's gameplay and I thought it was perfect. It was such a good blend of fun and, you know, like action and everything and excitement. But then I felt when Eternal, like it was still there and the core
00:37:13
Speaker
gameplay was still there and it was still fun but they really over-designed it and really added a lot of things that I was like this this has just made me like it took the kind of fun out of it and I was just like this is becoming becoming more complicated and this is what I mean it became more complicated and it really kind of jarred with the action
00:37:27
Speaker
There's one enemy they have in Doom Maternal who basically you can only shoot them at a very, very specific point. And what Doom's gameplay relies on is fast, frenetic, you know, you're jumping around kind of blasting like tons of demons and everything. But this really slowed it down and made you be like really patient and have to wait for exactly specific points. It made it a really frustrating experience. So I think over tinkering with the gameplay can be very dangerous for a shooter, especially if you're on tour.
00:37:51
Speaker
winning formula. No I completely agree with you there. The first one naturally came to mind was Halo when you said it was complicating because as I said like the gameplay itself is okay but a lot of the weapons that they use like they're supposed to be futuristic you know all look at us we're in like a weird alien world but they just felt too... you're not that way when you look at a design and you kind of think I don't know what I'm looking at here and then when you shoot it you're like I still don't know what I'm shooting at.
00:38:19
Speaker
I mean if you go back to like more simple like super soldier like stories I mean look at Star Wars Republic Commando that came out in more 2005 maybe? 6? I think maybe 2004 actually. Actually yeah no it would have been sooner because it definitely came out before Revenge of the Sith came out. It was kind of that in between middle but I mean if you look at that like I had really good mechanics for the time. Oh god yeah.
00:38:43
Speaker
And I mean, that wasn't like over the top like God forbid. I can imagine it getting made nowadays. Yeah, you know. I can imagine all the bits of armour coming off and just being like, no, stop. Don't add the codpiece. What are you doing?
00:38:58
Speaker
it's just like everything being over designed because that is like kind of going off in a slight tangent from gameplay but that is like quite a problem i would say with a few because i mean it even happens in other shooters i mean one of the ones i'm kind of thinking of is Gears of War that is a weird weird franchise i have to say like the first three
00:39:18
Speaker
or four technically if you include, you know, judgment. So I'm thinking for any, you know, Gears of War fans out there, I'm thinking of the original trilogy and the spin-off, Judgment, where they were all kind of like relatively similar games. And then for some reason in 4 and 5 they kind of like took a drastic turn and they started including robots and all these kind of like worst fleshy monsters that just
00:39:44
Speaker
You know, again, you're looking at it thinking, what am I actually looking at here? What am I shooting? And it's like, there was no kind of clear, how to put it, like no clear kind of correlation between, you know, you shooting that and then thinking, oh, I've done a good job, I've killed it. It just almost felt like, oh, it's an objective. There we go. Can I get my break now? You know, it's gonna put my controller down. And going back to what you were saying as well, about the weight as well. That is like the weight of weapons and things like that.
00:40:11
Speaker
100% agree with that i was actually watching a video from i don't know if you've seen him i think it's i think his name's the axe man or something on youtube yeah so something i never really noticed it's weird because it was something i never really like thought about too much like you know sound design and you know feeling a weapon being you know impactful and then i was watching one of his videos and they summed it up perfectly and they was just basically saying how i can't
00:40:37
Speaker
I remember what games he was, I think he was like comparing College of Tomorrow Warfare to, I think it was Black Ops, like the new one, well, Cold War. I keep calling it Black Ops, but, you know. It is far too long, like I have made a joke about this, saying the full title's basically, College of Tomorrow, Black Ops, Cold War and Knuckles, Feet of Revengeance, you know. It's just such a stupid little title, but that's another rant for another day.
00:41:05
Speaker
that is a total error on but yeah it's like i have to admit i feel as if sometimes when i'm playing that game i'm like shooting a pea shooter in cold war whereas for modern warfare for all it's like for all it's like terrible like decisions in some parts of it at least the gameplay was solid and you genuinely felt like that i was just thinking of that when you were talking about like red dead and you know games that have shooting but they don't really consider themselves a shooter
00:41:34
Speaker
I never felt like, see especially in GTA, I never thought that it was impactful when you shot someone in it. It almost felt as if, you know, it's like, you know, you pull a gun, you have to shoot the enemy and then that's it. And it sounded like a really weird thing to complain about, but it's like it's a huge part of the design to kind of immerse someone into the game.
00:41:58
Speaker
Whereas, you know, because the whole point is if you're playing a shooter game, you're putting yourself in the shoes of that character. You know, you're going in and, you know, whether it's Halo, whether it's Doom, whether it's Call of Duty Battlefield, or whether you're spending hours of supremacy on Battlefront 2. My god, that is a game mode and a half.
00:42:17
Speaker
And I don't mean that in a good way, but that's another round. Have you actually seen that gameplay mode? No, I can imagine there was one in the newer Battlefield games called, which I actually quite enjoyed sometimes anyway, but it was one called Operations.
00:42:34
Speaker
And I think Battlefield 1 was the first one to introduce it, which was large. They usually tacked together at least two or three maps together. And it was like a long, there was lots of different rounds you'd have over that. And I really enjoyed some of that, but sometimes it could just be like, especially if you're on the losing side, it's an absolute frustration. Like, oh my god, I've got to be here for like two hours. Get my ass kicked.
00:42:55
Speaker
Yeah it's exactly the same because it's like this tug of war where it's like you have to do a huge ground battle and you have to like go back and forth and that's another game that I think it's a good game like Battlefront 2 has a good game it's relatively well designed but at the same time it's like oh god like that game mode especially is just so long. Like it takes ages for anybody to win and then once you win
00:43:18
Speaker
you have to fight on like the respect of whoever's lost you have to fight in their ship and if you lose it puts you back onto the ground and then you have to do that all over again so it just goes back and forth and back and forth and
00:43:35
Speaker
I mean that's probably some people's cup of tea and that's a whole like other debate of you know whether or not that's your kind of game mode because in shooter games there are like it's not just you know kind of like localized just to you know team deathmatch and things like that yeah and I mean you can even get like
00:43:52
Speaker
because I mean we've been talking kind of about in the sense of like Battlefield and Call of Duty or those typical ones but I mean you could even extend it to like 6v6 games like Overwatch. I'm just trying to think what else there's like Overwatch there's Apex Legends yeah like Valorant you know there's just so many and it's a rogue company I think it's a new one coming out.
00:44:15
Speaker
I mean it's me now but I think that's the new kind of one that's been like slowly creeping into it to be popular and you think, oh interesting, interesting. But there are, there's just so many. They've all got different mechanics though, they've all got different gameplay because that's the thing though. In fact that kind of leads on to our next point or like a final point about what makes a good shooter is
00:44:37
Speaker
the aspect of single player versus multiplayer. Now, I was just talking there about Overwatch, and you said Apex, you and Valorant, those kind of games. But they don't really have a story. They've got a story in the background, but it's kind of the thing that you have to go and research, and I'm getting horrible flashbacks of Halo 5 when I say that, where it's just that chart that pops up.
00:45:06
Speaker
Oh my god, oh that's awful. So yeah, just quickly to recap, if you play Halo 5 when it came out, there was a chart that I think it was 343 Industries or whoever was publishing it at the time put up online and they were like, oh who are these new characters? Well if you want to find out who this person is, you have to play Halo 3 ODST. If you want to see who this person is, you have to read this comic, you know.
00:45:30
Speaker
utterly ridiculous, utterly ridiculous but yeah it's like at least with those kind of games like with Overwatch especially you know it's like you don't really have to have a story yeah I mean you can do like it kind of helps explain why you're in the middle of Gibraltar with a big beefy German guy in a suit of armour you know
00:45:51
Speaker
and, you know, a Korean girl in a mech suit, you know, it's like, like, how do we get here? Why is there a French person sniping me over there, you know? Yeah, like, you don't really, I suppose, need to have a story, but the downside of that, I would say, is its mortality. I mean, you can make, like, the best multiplayer game ever.
00:46:15
Speaker
And don't get me wrong, I think things like Warzone, I think I've just hit the money load there. Any successful battle royale, I mean look at Fortnite. Fortnite is just, that is gonna go on forever, probably, until they bring out Fortnite 2. I wouldn't be surprised, I would not be surprised if they brought out Fortnite 2 or something. Or you get the... They'll... Like in the far future. Somebody'll do the Fortnite idea better.
00:46:41
Speaker
Sort of like what Fortnite did to PUBG. They'll take the idea and just do it better and then people will deserve it.
00:46:51
Speaker
their ace in the hole is definitely their aesthetic, like the whole design and everything. And the game plays good and everything, and that's another one that's not got a story, but at the same time, well I don't know, I've never played Fortnite, you know. This is my gaming confession, I'm in the booth, I'm confessing that I've never played Fortnite. Never have I, so you're in, you could come.
00:47:13
Speaker
At the same time though, it's like, because that's so ridiculously popular, same with, as I said, Warzone and things, that's never really gonna die anytime soon. Or if it is, you know, at least it's kinda prolonged, whereas with
00:47:29
Speaker
If you look at games like College of Two, and I know I keep going back into this, but it seems to be like the middle ground for this genre. It seems to be like every time you think of an example, College of Two, one of them will somehow be able to answer whatever question you have.
00:47:46
Speaker
I remember years later going back to play Modern Warfare 2, I think it was, because that was my very first game for the Xbox 360. Absolutely loved it. Never really played the multiplayer. My first multiplayer game was Halo 3 with a friend, and that was some MacGyver stuff. Because I didn't have the adapter, I had to hook up my Xbox to my laptop at the time.
00:48:11
Speaker
and like kind of bridged the connection. It was super complicated. Not overly complicated but you know it was just like oh it was different times like now I just turned on my Xbox and that's it like it's got it built in you know simpler simpler times these days but I remember going back online to play it because I thought oh this is a great game you know I can't wait to see what it's like and I went online and it was I don't know have you ever been on the Call of Duty game like years later?
00:48:40
Speaker
I don't think years later. I think I've been one COD game back from the car but I think I've ever gone back more than that. Because I mean maybe it was like it's always like one or two COD games because they always come out so close to one another but I remember playing it and if anyone's listening and you probably know
00:49:03
Speaker
like what I'm talking about if you played these games but it would be like this random text in the corner of the screen and it would be like joiner whatever server oh do you want bots you know like all of this like all these weird spammy messages and just it was overrun with hackers essentially it was just absolutely overrun with hackers overrun with people you know that just didn't care about the game and the reason being of course
00:49:30
Speaker
because the servers weren't updated or not updated but they weren't maintained they were just kind of left to you know like i don't want to say rot you know maybe rust but then nobody really no one really cared you know i was like oh the new game's out and that's the thing it's like and i don't know why this is a scene that i always quote on the channel but have you ever seen toy story 2? yeah you know the flashback scene where
00:49:59
Speaker
where, or not a flashback, but it's like a nightmare where Woody thinks he's going to get replaced and Andy grabs him. Yeah he says, he holds out his hand and he goes, I don't want to play with you anymore and then he falls to the bed and then it's like the whole nightmare. That's honestly what, like, shooter games like that that come out like, you know.
00:50:20
Speaker
that is definitely the kind of mindset i think for a lot of companies where they're just like yeah we've got the new game you know coming out so yeah screw it we'll just it doesn't matter and it's just so i think in that sense if a game's popular enough then definitely it'll have like we still have a following to keep it alive yeah whereas no so i was just gonna say like i definitely think for
00:50:46
Speaker
multiplayer. I think you need a different focus if you're making a single player or a multiplayer shooter. And I think you need that, especially for the multiplayer, you need that addictive gameplay loop. You need that thing that's going to keep you coming back. For me, for me, games like Battlefield, Battlefield 1, I think, was the one for me that just hit the spot. And that was I was hooked. I was addicted. I was on that, like, you know, most days, most nights, say most nights and most days of the week, you know, absolutely addicted.
00:51:12
Speaker
Some of the Call of Duty's as well, I got really into those. So if I black ops, I think that was maybe the height for me of that kind of addictive, like, oh, one more match, you know, and then five hours later, you're like, my God, it's six in the morning. What have I done? Exactly. Yeah. So definitely for that, I think it's what you really want. If you want to get a game and the Fortnite seems to have got like that as you, as you, the Fortnite seems to have hit that exactly, that sweet spot.
00:51:36
Speaker
and Overwatch as well. It seems to have games like that that have found that kind of sweet and addictive as well. What I always thought was interesting is it's interesting how some games struggle to kind of get a good single player shooting experience and a good multiplayer shooting experience. Something like Call of Duty, you might argue that perhaps neither of them are amazing in their own, but they're both good. They're both serviceable. They both work well and you have a lot of fun. But I think it's something like, again, going back to Doom 2016, Doom 2016 had a multiplayer mode.
00:52:05
Speaker
But it completely bombed. Nobody really played it. I've seen some things saying people say it was underrated. But the majority of people loved the single player, found it really fun, really engaging, absolutely loved it. But the multiplayer just failed to resonate. And I think part of it was because they tried to, they struggled to match the gameplay from that Doom, the kind of friendly gameplay into a more kind of, you know, into a call of duty, like,
00:52:30
Speaker
you know like weapon class system and things like that it was it was an awkward fit but yeah I know there have been others as well that I'm blanking on my mind now but Doom I think Doom 2016 is the perfect example of that it just seems difficult like some games can't seem to marry it up because I think you do need a different one and for me like the best kind of multiplayer shooters
00:52:48
Speaker
have been the ones that made me feel like I'm part of something bigger, you know, like I'm part of a big battle. So something like battle, go back to battle, go back to battle because I love it. But something like Battlefield 1, where some of the Star Wars battlefronts as well, where I really felt like, you know, I'm part of this huge battle going on and everything like that. While I have enjoyed other ones like Call of Duty where it's been smaller scale, but for me, those are the ones that really have drawn my attention. While there's something like a single player, you really want
00:53:12
Speaker
you want yourself, you want your character to have the focus of the action, you want everything to kind of revolve around you because who it should be. So perhaps being part of something bigger isn't really as important a thing. While in a multiplayer for me, I'm like, I want to look around and be like, oh my God, there's a whole separate other battle going on over there while I'm fighting here. Is that a scale thing? So yeah, it is interesting.
Single vs. Multiplayer Experience
00:53:30
Speaker
No, I was just thinking when you said about doing, you know, being the awkward fit, it actually reminded me of, was it Dead Space 2 that had a multiplayer?
00:53:37
Speaker
Ooh, I don't know that. Certainly, I think Dead Space 3 had that co-op thing, but it actually had a multiplayer one. I think it did technically have, like, not a good one by any means. It definitely had it. It definitely had something, but it wasn't good, whatever it was. And again, it's like that idea of because multiplayer, you know, online multiplayer shooters are so popular that a lot of games just kind of slap it on. Because it was, as we were saying at the very beginning, kind of only, like,
00:54:07
Speaker
they're kind of looking back to what we were saying at the very beginning how you know game companies used to just slap like a title onto you know like a franchise or something and be like okay Jim you're now a shooter it's like if I want to be an action RPG you're a shooter Jim
00:54:22
Speaker
it's like just take it you know you're a shooter whereas nowadays or not nowadays but like kind of a couple of years ago it was more yeah just slap on a multiplayer and that's it and again like you're right it doesn't work one of the interesting things though speaking of multiplayer you can't really like localize it hahaha pun you can't localize it really to online though because that is something that is kind of i would say is maybe dying down a bit
00:54:52
Speaker
for, like, at least the AAA shooters, you think? For, not for online ones, but for, like, the couch co-op, multiplayer. Because one of the examples, and again, I know I'm bashing Halo, but Halo 5, well, I'm sure it was Halo 5, but I could be wrong, where I think it had multiplayer co-op, but not land. Like, you know, you couldn't invite your friend over. Not that you would. Not that you would these days.
00:55:15
Speaker
But in the before time? In the before time, yeah in the simpler times. Where you could invite a friend over and you know get them to play like a first-person shooter or title premonition but that's another podcast. But yeah it's like there seems to be unless it's like a I don't know because we were talking about this last week with Into Games and things where it seems as if those kind of like genres are
00:55:37
Speaker
they have more of a focus on couch co-op and things like that. Whereas games like shooters, and don't get me wrong, I'm kind of painting this with a wide brush. Maybe there are games out there that do have multiplayer modes and things like that, but it feels as if nowadays they're kind of moving away from that and just doing multiplayer online, that's what they're focusing on, rather than that land experience.
00:56:05
Speaker
Which is a bit of a shame, if I'm honest. Because it's... I mean it definitely is. Like in this day and age, don't get me wrong, in this day and age we do depend obviously a lot more. Like on the internet and online play. It's a lot easier, it's a lot easier to just flick on your console. Just, you know, do matchmaking and then that's a, you know, you get connected to Jim from Missouri or whatever.
00:56:29
Speaker
who's also playing the same game I don't know Jim's a very popular character tonight but you know he's like he's playing the same game as well you can just yeah fight against one another then the new like algorithm thing that's changed see that's another thing I think I don't know if it's the same for a lot of games now but I remember when you're used to play games like Modern Warfare 2 and things and you could stay in the same lobby
00:56:52
Speaker
and you would just stick with the same people and you would just go through each game with the same people and if you didn't like it then you could obviously quit and then hope that you didn't get sorted back into that group. Whereas with a lot of games, I think it's more for competitive games but Call of Duty have started to do now. Overwatch definitely does it where it takes you out of the lobby and then it shows you back into another lobby based on your matchmaking skills.
00:57:21
Speaker
and it's really annoying because it's like one game like you could be fighting and you could get like 20 you know 50 kills or whatever and be like yeah I'm on top of the world and then you get into the next one and you're just getting pummeled with you know cluster strikes with you know orbital bombardment whatever game you're playing you just get absolutely wrecked and yeah it's like it's not a fun experience and
00:57:47
Speaker
That's the thing though, the online scene is always going to be changing. Whereas at least with single player, I mean, I'm not saying like, you know, games should be only single player. Like, I mean, if you look at timesplitters, that has a very weird multiplayer. Like, is that not like Team Deathmatch? Or are timesplitters 2 and 3? There is definitely Deathmatch.
00:58:09
Speaker
I don't know if there's anything else. It's been a long time since I've come here. Yeah, no, same. Definitely, definitely tip. Unfortunately, in the world that we live in right now, it's impossible to do it at times. But yeah, we definitely have a death match, as you said. Because it's just that idea of convenience, hasn't it? Yeah, yeah.
00:58:27
Speaker
you know, compared to trying to schedule it with your friends and if your friends can't make it. I mean, it's not going to stop you playing the game, but yeah, again, it's like that, as I said, you know, just convenience. But I mean, what's your take on it? No, it's funny because I've kind of gone through a change now.
00:58:45
Speaker
And where I used to be like, I used to be really into multiplayer shooters. And that was like, that was my bread and butter. And that's why I really, really like, that's why I did the call of duties. I said, battlefield one. So as battlefield one might've been the last real one for me. I think after that, I've kind of fallen away from multiplayer shooters. Even the, even the new call, even the newer call of duties that I've enjoyed, it's a majority of the single player.
00:59:07
Speaker
I've played I have to like I've obviously I've played some way player I played some with you Spanks others as well, but it's more the single player I spent more time on now and I think maybe that's maybe that's just partly me now This is why I'm looking for I to this annoying trend for me There's something that I don't like now is that I especially in the college I find the multiplayer is starting to subsume the single-player story like I I was absolutely I was so I was so annoyed when I found out that like I
00:59:33
Speaker
the war zone, like the modern warfare war zone had been basically carrying on like the story of the single player. And then I happened to see this like cut scene on YouTube, where it showed and I'll come into spoilers here. So apologies. Spoilers here, but yeah, so like at the end of the modern warfare story,
00:59:53
Speaker
and the new one, the 2019 one. They mentioned that, what's his name? Viktor Zakayev is, you know, like the big bad and, you know, he's like the one behind pulling the strings and everything. And I was like, okay, so that's what it's going to be like, the villain in the next one. Then I happened to see this like cut scene on YouTube for an end event. It showed like Captain Price killing off Viktor Zakayev and the thing that was to do with the war zone story. And I was like, oh, what? So the story is just, so what? Like, this has been carried on in war zones.
01:00:20
Speaker
What the hell are you going to do in the sequel? It's just going to be completely different now. I don't know. For me, it just really annoyed me because I was really looking forward to that and investing in doing that. But it seems like the whole story has been carried on in Warzone. But to me, if I play a match of Warzone, I don't feel like I'm progressing in a story. They're not saying Warzone is not fun. I've had fun playing Warzone and things like that. But to me, it's not the same as playing a story campaign. I don't feel like I'm progressing anyway.
01:00:46
Speaker
I was going to say, would you believe that they actually have done something similar in the past, not for Call of Duty, but for Halo? And they did that through a thing called Spartan Ops in Halo 4. Oh, maybe you're telling me this out your head. Yeah, it's so kind of just to give a
01:01:01
Speaker
quick recap, you know you go through the whole game and then there's like this whole like sub story which I think you can play through it in order now like in the Master Chief collection but you couldn't back then obviously because it was just all you had were the three originals and then the spin-offs and everything and then you had four.
01:01:17
Speaker
and he had to log in every so often and they would like rotate the stories so if like you missed a week you know because of life or whatever or maybe it was like two weeks I can't remember there was like a window anyway to be able to play this story and if you missed it then that was it you like you missed like huge chunks of it and obviously now you can like look it up on YouTube and everything but that's not the point it's like there wasn't even like an option to play through it as far as I know I could be wrong like maybe I missed it
01:01:44
Speaker
But as far as I remember, there wasn't an option. And it is, again, that idea of continuing, you know, this huge, bombastic story. And you're like... It's like, yeah. I mean, he can continue, but... And I mean, at least... I'll give games like Gears of War credit. At least with those, they keep it kind of consistent, if you know what I mean. Like, the whole story, at least, is on its own tangent. Like, you don't have to play, you know, Gears of War.
01:02:13
Speaker
and I'm gonna go back and say it, you know, Gears of War gym where it's about a guy who, you know, does take away on the planet and everything and then all of a sudden the locust invades and he has to fight off to find his family. You know, there's none of that. I mean, even with judgement, that's a full game.
01:02:30
Speaker
on its own right. Same with O.D.S.T. and Halo, but, you know, like, that is a full game. That's not like a whole mode, but I do agree. And especially for such an iconic character in Call of Duty, as Imran's a kid. So just like, for kind of context, he was the main bad guy in Modern Warfare, so like... Just before I start with that, it's not actually Imran, it's Victor, it's his son.
01:02:51
Speaker
Was it Victor? Yeah, so it's Victor, it's the sun. I think Imran's appeared, so they might be saving him. I thought they killed him off. I think they said a thing like he did, but I'm going to presume that he'll probably be the one that comes back. He'll probably escape or something. But yeah, it just seems like a weird kind of choice, as you say, to continue.
01:03:14
Speaker
It's like one of the characters, I won't spoil it, but one of the characters who you can play as is like an online, you know, avatar. Right, again, kind of many spoilers but he ends up dying in the Modern Warfare campaign and then on the online he like just comes back because they just wanted his like skin back for the online campaign and it always lost. Like he gets lost in a big explosion, like this whole factory blows up and all he loses is like a leg. So it's like, you know that scene out of The Simpsons?
01:03:44
Speaker
where I think it's the Simpsons where it's like, I thought you were dead. Nope. And that's it. It's just like, nope. And it's like, OK, that's it. He's alive now. OK. No explanation. That's the thing, though. It's like, why would you try to make a story in multiplayer when it's not like... I mean, I can admire them trying to do like a story for multiplayer, but I mean, like in the words of Blade Runner, it's just going to get lost to time.
01:04:14
Speaker
like tears on the rain and all that. It's going to get lost through that. I guess it's just an attempt to tie it. I guess it's an attempt towards a bigger thing, which is probably fair, because it's probably where the money is now, to be honest. It's probably where you're getting a lot of their money through that. So I suppose I can understand from that perspective. But I don't know. To me, it's kind of cheap. Maybe I sound like some total cranky old purist here or something. But I don't know. To me, it cheapens the story. Not to advocate segregation, but keep single player and multiplayer separate.
01:04:44
Speaker
No, it's true, because as you said, one of the things that annoys me, and again I know we're kind of ranting about code in this case, but the thing that I noticed about that is that they are trying to push a lot more multiplayer aspects, especially with Warzone. If you download, and again I'm not advocating for this whatsoever,
01:05:06
Speaker
But if you were to download Modern Warfare or whatever onto your Xbox, PlayStation, you won't get like an avatar or a thumbnail of Modern Warfare. You'll get one for Warzone.
01:05:18
Speaker
And that really confuses me because it's like 90% of it is Warzone and then you get 10% that's just like a kind of like they've cut off the corner and it's like, you know, Captain Price like peering over as if, oh, what's this game? I have never seen that before. Like if you look at... Yeah, like...
01:05:37
Speaker
maybe it's just like me being very picky but it's like I played Battlefront as I said Republic of Mando, Battlefield even as well you know I mean even if you played a game like Rainbow Six Siege like you're not gonna have like you know like you know oh multiplayer look at us or I mean even if you look at military simulators and that you see that's another thing as well like military sims when you think of them point yeah yeah because I mean granted they're a whole genre on their own right but that
01:06:04
Speaker
I suppose, would you include
Subgenres: Military Simulators and More
01:06:06
Speaker
them? It's like a class. Oh yeah, they'd definitely shoot. Yeah, I mean, that's what, 99% of, you know, if you're not shooting, you're going somewhere to shoot something. So that definitely stays like an issue. If you're not, you're going to shoot someone or you're going to die. Or you're tactically telling your squad how to shoot somebody. Yeah, tactically in the nicest way possible. Yeah, tactically, how can I put bullets in this person?
01:06:32
Speaker
Yeah, with luck, essentially. With luck and hope and a prayer. But yeah, I mean even with those games, at least it's kind of an advertising thing. Like, I mean, I know I kind of talked briefly to actually Fortnite and things and I haven't downloaded it or anything but from what I remember of seeing other people play it and things, at least they're kind of focusing on the brand, if you know what I mean.
01:06:59
Speaker
Because it almost feels as if games like Call of Duty, compared to like, you know, as I said, you know, Battlefront, Battlefield, Arma, even that new squad game which does look interesting. I'll need to have a check of that. They're so drastically different. Like, either you can go into games like...
01:07:15
Speaker
going back to, you know, a phrase that I said at the beginning of this, you know, rooting, tooting, shooting, compared to, you know, like, slow and methodical, you know, like, being able to talk to your teammates and be like, right, OK, we're going to breach this house, we're going to do this and that. And again, go back to, like, Republic Commando, even then you can do that. Or even if you look at games like Dead Space, where it's like you can
01:07:38
Speaker
you know, take the game slowly. The game's kind of forcing you to go slowly because of, you know, the danger or the fear that something's gonna jump out at you. And it is like all those different kinds of, you know, those different kinds of games that kind of have this, as you said, this umbrella term of being a shooter game and kind of being more than that. But when it comes to code, I don't feel as if, you know, I feel as if almost they're just becoming more zoned now.
01:08:06
Speaker
yeah it does seem to be because i mean even with the campaign and again we've got a whole like podcast episode on this as well like for the black ops series but the long and the short of it is i was not a big fan you could definitely tell like it had its good moments but you could definitely tell they were like
01:08:21
Speaker
rushed you know parts and I mean they gave us an absolute mess when it came out same with Battlefield 4 where I kid you not when I played the online for the very first time I was playing it during the time there was a lot of like terrible bugs you could get killed by someone who had zero health how that worked out I don't know and there was one moment where I literally got locked into place so I was running like sideways I couldn't turn it wasn't my controller or anything because as soon as I got killed and I respawned
01:08:49
Speaker
Like, I could turn and I could do everything. It was just so weird. It's just nervous, but it's nervous. We're notoriously bad on that one when it first came out bad before I remember. Yeah, it was absolutely horrific. It was awful. It's...
01:09:03
Speaker
That's the thing though, if you're putting your eggs into one basket, and I think even Warzone is getting to that stage, the stage where essentially, how do you even put it with Warzone? It's laggy, it's bloated, it's just all over the place. It's not a good experience at times. And the fact is, see if you get killed. It takes a good five to ten minutes to get back into a game. At least I suppose...
01:09:32
Speaker
like at least with a single player or you know at least with kind of fast-paced multiplayer or deathmatches in any game like not even for codes like any game um you know at least you're kind of back into the action really quick and don't get me wrong this is probably my personal preference of just wanting like either a quick game or if I'm gonna dedicate time to it then I'm gonna kind of take it slow and you know steady rather than you know rushing into Verdansk and just being shot
01:10:00
Speaker
just to completely end. But kind of summing up though, what would you say? Like, would you say a game should have single player or multiplayer as its focus?
Finding Game Focus and Balance
01:10:11
Speaker
Because I know that's kind of a broad thing to ask. I think it really depends. It really depends what you're trying to sell. Like for something like Fortnite, definitely multiplayer.
01:10:21
Speaker
Oh, that's that where that's where it should be. That's where the focus should be in it. Oh, absolutely. And while for something, I was almost talking of something like a Doom or something single player, because that's that's where you're it's where your strengths lies. You know, as we say, Fortnite's strengths are really in its like customization, its characters, the fact that it's been able to assemble, like, you know, that you can have like Thanos fighting John Wick, you know, at this point, like, that's a big strength of Fortnite. Yeah. I'm sure for people and stuff. So definitely that works better in multiplayer, but something like Doom 2016, where its action was like,
01:10:50
Speaker
It worked best as a single player because you couldn't replicate it. It's not possible to replicate it into the multiplayer, so focus on your single player. It's possible to, something like Call of Duty, I would say Call of Duty, keep a single player, but keep a multiplayer as well, split your focus, as you've been doing for a long time. But just don't, for me, it's like, don't cheapen one for the other. If you've got a single player story, just leave it there. And you don't, do we really need, maybe people disagree with me on this one, but do we really need some overarching reasons?
01:11:19
Speaker
to play multiplayer or to play like a battle royale like you know maybe people do maybe that's why some of these games are staying successful but i don't know for me like i'm like it's a multiplayer match you know the appeal for me is the addictive gameplay and stuff and i'm like oh you know i can jump into a match and you know like you know run around run and gun and everything like that or warzone you know you can get and then you could
01:11:42
Speaker
a bit more tactical, you have the same, you have the frenetic gunfights as well with the added tension of the shrinking map and everything. You don't really need the story. You don't really need an overarching story there. I think games should focus on both if they want to, but just don't make one subservient to the other two as a detriment, if that makes sense.
01:12:03
Speaker
Because one of the interesting things, I'm kind of just picking up on something you said earlier when you said about feeling as if you're part of something bigger. Or like, you know, when you go online and it's true. Because when you're playing single player, you do... it's basically a power fantasy, isn't it? Like, I mean, even if you look at games like... this is kind of like an obscure one, but you know Warhammer, the space marine game?
01:12:29
Speaker
where there's literally called Space Marine where you play as a big, literally a big beefy space marine in this like ridiculous sized armour. It's basically like a homicidal Buzz Lightyear, okay? It's, you know, you're fighting all these orcs and things and you're just crushing. It's completely a power fantasy, you know, ridiculous proportions and it's the same with Doom as well, you know, again big beefy guy
01:12:54
Speaker
and armor just punching things you know blasting people away and everything and you know it's like satisfying because you know there's like that feedback and things like that and even in Call of Duty games and battle heroes those military games where you're kind of the superhero
01:13:11
Speaker
for the most part you know you're like this super soldier like in this Michael Bay set because it's like what you were saying with them I haven't played it but like with World War 2 for college you see where is all these like huge set pieces like I've seen one where it's like I think you rescue someone and the train blows up or something like that and like it goes over you and because I mean at least like with the original ones even with the original ones they kept it grounded like if you look at World at War for example
01:13:39
Speaker
you know and that was like like at the end of the day I think it actually got a perfect balance with that like especially with the Russian campaign yeah for that and I'm only gonna touch briefly on this because this could be like its own episode but it was like you were just like a small cog in this you know like larger machine but at the same time you were responsible for keeping like key characters alive
01:14:02
Speaker
for the end and because you kept them alive they like in turn managed to help you defeat the enemy and yeah like there was a perfect balance there whereas so in single player yeah as like just as power fantasy whereas in online play unless you're good at the game yeah it's not going to be a power fantasy it's more going to be like a power nightmare um where you're just constantly getting destroyed like in every round and things and you're just like what is going on here
01:14:31
Speaker
i was good in the single player that's something i keep asking myself i was like i was good in the single player why am i not good to you i was like yeah because yeah because people are better online they actually zigzag away from you you know and yeah i do agree like i mean college did i try it mind you they tried it with black ops 4 and i don't think it worked very well to translate to just solely multiplayer yeah yeah
01:14:58
Speaker
And I mean, the thing, my kind of final argument on it would be that if it doesn't have a single player, then it could rob a lot of people of a fair chance at a shooter game. What I mean by that is, you know, you can have all the multiplayer games you want, but let's say you've not got a good connection, or
01:15:18
Speaker
you know and I know technically this is kind of things outside you know like the publishers and their you know grasp you know they can't control how fast your internet is but I mean if you can like you know stick in a game play like the original battlefront 2 you don't have to go online for that you can just kind of experience that as it is and I feel as if that gives it like I don't want to be pretentious and say it gives it that immortality you know
01:15:43
Speaker
But it gives that kind of nostalgic basis, you know, that you can say, oh, I'm not feeling like Warzone tonight. Maybe I'll just play, you know, Battlefront or, you know, just like any of the single player campaigns that you used to enjoy when you were younger. Even GoldenEye. Don't get me wrong, that did not age well. Neither did Rogue Agent, but that's another topic.
01:16:04
Speaker
but yeah definitely there needs to be a balance but I feel as if the balance is tipped then you're gonna have troubles especially for shooter games because I mean I know I've kind of said it but there is that perception of people thinking oh you know oh it's just a mindless shooter you know let's go from point A to point B to do this and that and
01:16:24
Speaker
I've been guilty of that, I have to say, looking at a game and not taking it seriously, or as seriously, and thinking, oh, I'm going to quickly know scope as a joke when there's a serious thing going on. And it's like, I mean, even games like Titanfall 2, I have to admit, I never played the multiplayer, but I have heard good things about it. But I mean, even the story and that and like,
01:16:44
Speaker
the design as well. It was kind of that perfect balance. Everyone seems to say that it's that perfect balance of having a good single player and also having that good multiplayer that translates. And with games like Apex, this is a weird thing. Something I didn't realise was that Apex is apparently in the same world as Titanfall.
01:17:05
Speaker
Oh really? Apparently. I genuinely didn't know this until someone pointed it out. I was like, interesting. So it's kind of weird because although Titanfall 2 isn't widely regarded in shooter game communities, but
01:17:22
Speaker
at the same time you know it kind of lives on through Apex and it's like at least if Titanfall like finally rolls over and you know eventually dies or it servers you know and no longer operate at least it's got the option to transfer over to Apex and be like oh we're gonna have Titans on this game now or oh are we gonna do this and that you know it is it's like giving that opportunity essentially yeah I think that's neat but
01:17:48
Speaker
Well we'll see how it goes. We'll see how it
Community Engagement and Farewell
01:17:51
Speaker
goes. So yeah, as always, thank you all so so much for joining us tonight on this of course very lovely evening. Totally pretending it is not raining outside as I say this.
01:18:03
Speaker
If you want to catch me and see me on other platforms, you can see me on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and of course Twitch, under the name Satsanami42. If you also want to join our Discord server, you can search for us. You can look in my Twitter profile as well, there'll be a link there for it. We are of course known as the Satsanami Society. So if you want to join and become a Pandalorian, then yeah,
01:18:30
Speaker
feel free to drop by. It is a very welcoming community and we are all just awesomely supportive of one another and totally not biased. Adam, tell everyone listening I'm not biased. Thank you, you can come on the chat next week. So anyway, as always guys, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.
01:18:58
Speaker
and we'll see you again next week. Bye guys, bye.