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Ep 81: What Every GC Should Know About Working With Founders with Sarah Irwin
0 Playsin 2 hours
How do you advise founders and learn to speak their language? Build a thriving legal community in Europe? And navigate the ups and downs of starting your own business?
Join Sarah Irwin, CEO and Founder of Irish Tech GC, as she discusses her career as a consultant for tech founders, adviser for GCs looking to build better relationships with their fellow executives, angel investor, and global legal influencer.
Listen as Sarah shares how she founded the Irish Tech GC community, why she decided it was time to leave her GC role behind and go all-in on her own company, how she leveraged LinkedIn to create enormous reach, and offers tips to GCs on how they can position themselves as business leaders.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-81
Topics:
Introduction: 0:00
What inspired Sarah to be a lawyer: 2:19
Assessing Dublin’s start-up landscape: 7:47
Working with founders at Tines: 9:44
Founding the Irish Tech GC community: 12:17
Seeing yourself as a founder: 15:12
Deciding to go all-in on your own company: 18:31
Operating a start-up and legal consulting practice: 20:01
Common mistakes that GCs make when working with founders: 21:51
Documenting the ups and downs of your founder journey on LinkedIn: 26:39
The best and most challenging parts of being a founder: 29:07
The future of Irish Tech GC: 33:01
Getting in touch with Sarah: 34:31
Rapid-fire questions: 35:15
Connect with us:
Sarah Irwin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-irwin-aa273064/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading contract lifecycle management platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.
Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Working with Founders and Strategic Advice
00:00:00
Speaker
I was so used to working with founders, I knew that on the one hand, they are some of the smartest people you'll ever meet, you know, and, you know, someone always seems smarter if they're smart in a different way, like if they're very, you know, from a STEM background, as opposed to law, because they they know a lot of stuff you don't but but like, could see you know, nonetheless, they're what they have blind spots, they don't know everything and nor should they no one does.
00:00:23
Speaker
So when it came to like how to strategically close a funding round as fast as possible by doing certain things in the beginning, um you know those were all things that I was able to explain and help.
00:00:39
Speaker
How do you advise founders and learn to speak their language? Build a thriving legal community in Europe and navigate the ups and downs of starting your own business.
Introduction of Sarah Irwin
00:00:51
Speaker
Today, we are joined on the abstract by my friend Sarah Irwin, the founder of Irish Tech General Council, a community of GCs and other legal leaders in Ireland, England, and she's starting to do events across Europe as well.
00:01:07
Speaker
She also has her own consulting practice, something that we're going to talk a little bit about today, where she helps GCs develop and run modern legal functions and helps founders do things like improve deal closure timelines, develop better relationships with their investors, and run better board meetings.
Sarah's Career Path and Investment Roles
00:01:28
Speaker
Before leaving to focus on Irish tech GC full time, Sarah was the general counsel of TINES, where she continues to advise and consult for the executive team.
00:01:39
Speaker
She's also doing some investing stuff on the side. She's a venture partner at Circle Rock Capital and an angel investor through Awaken Angels. Sarah spent about 10 years before joining Tynes as a barrister in England, then in corporate practice in Dublin. So Sarah, thanks so much for joining me for this episode of The Abstract.
00:02:05
Speaker
Thank you, Tyler. I always love hearing someone else read out my accomplishments and CV. I'm always so chuffed. I'm proud of you. It sounds very impressive, and you are very impressive. So that's a good place to start, actually, with your CV, the beginning. I like to ask, not every guest, but I like to ask some guests like you, especially those who are doing something a little bit different, what was it that inspired you to become a lawyer?
00:02:35
Speaker
It was the framework of rules and I guess options career-wise, so I did two degrees in England. We don't have the American system of doing a sort of an undergrad with lots of different things and then post-grad specialising, but I ended up doing My higher level education ended up being like that, so I did European studies with French and Italian, so I was able to study French-Italian, I i did a year abroad in Strasbourg, history, politics, philosophy, it was brilliant.
00:03:07
Speaker
And then in the last, in the final year, I studied European law and I really liked it as a discipline in terms of the structure, the rules.
Transition from Barrister to In-House
00:03:16
Speaker
Yeah. So I decided to do that and I really liked talking. So you don't have the distinction between barrister and solicitor in the US, your attorneys. if If you're a litigator, you generally represent your clients in court as well.
00:03:32
Speaker
But here we do have that distinction. So I, because I'm very chatty and like talking and advocating, I decided to do the bar, as we call it for barristers. And yeah, that that that was really what that came down to. And, you know, we'll come on to it. But it's funny that the bar in England is so old fashioned, you know, with the wigs and the gowns. It's all very Harry Potter-esque.
00:03:54
Speaker
And it makes me laugh now thinking when I look back to the very start of my legal career and now where I am now doing something so innovative where tech meets the law and it takes me 45 minutes to explain what I do. So it's just, yeah, it's a nice contrast.
00:04:11
Speaker
Can we get a photo of you in the wig and the robe and use that as your headshot for the podcast episode? Absolutely, yeah. ahladin I look so like, you know, green and innocent and like, you know, just, we all do, don't we, at that stage with those college level shots, just so hopeful.
00:04:30
Speaker
Sure. not more entirely or the corporate system Well, look, with that in mind and liking to be an advocate for your clients, what was it that made you want to go in-house? I find that transition, it's actually quite common in the US. I think people think that it's not, but many GCs, yes, some have a corporate background, many GCs actually are litigators. There might actually be based on some numbers that I've heard slightly more litigators than corporate attorneys who rise to BGC in the U.S. um What prompted that shift for for you?
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm aware that a lot you know a lot of my GC friends and contacts in the US are also former litigators. What prompted that transition? So it was more gradual than going from being a barrister to in-house. So I moved from London, where I was a barrister, to Dublin, back to Ireland, where I was born. And I actually worked for a bunch of the big law firms. I cross-qualified as a solicitor working in in law firms.
00:05:33
Speaker
And we were just coming out of the horrible credit crunch. It was 2014 and corporate. tea I was I was so sort of penniless because you really don't earn that much as a barrister. It's kind of like an extension of being a student almost. And I loved the idea of the structure of being employed and working at a law firm. And they were hiring a lot in corporate laws. So I jumped at that and found I absolutely loved working with tech founders through all of their funding rounds, exits.
00:06:02
Speaker
And just being that sort of trusted advisor, even when I was, you know, very junior, I was um obviously I had been a barrister for five years, but I was new to ah the world of funding rounds and and corporate law. Yeah. And just really sort of helping them with gigantic due diligence exercises and then discovery. And it's like, why are we doing this again? Well, it's for a different reason. Yeah, you know, and just long documents. I really really enjoyed it.
00:06:29
Speaker
And I spent seven or eight years doing that. And I did find towards the end of that time working in private practice, I really wanted to just work for one technology scale up, start up and support founders from the inside.
00:06:43
Speaker
I just knew the the the rigorous hierarchy and structure of law firms wasn't the right fit for me because I had five years experience as a litigator. And then that was sort of mostly discounted working in corporate law. Yeah. So, so it was a more gradual transition. It kind of happened over six, seven or eight years. Yeah. And then times were hiring their first legal hire. They had just done a B round. They were sort of going about to go from.
00:07:13
Speaker
40 people to 120
Ireland's Startup Ecosystem and Pandemic Impact
00:07:16
Speaker
overnight. And I just realized it's a super exciting time to to to join. You know, in Ireland at the time we had five unicorns, which isn't a lot. It is for a small little island. You know, we had Irish founders that were growing companies headquartered in Ireland. I think the pandemic helped with that as well. So not everyone was hopping on a plane to go to Y Combinator and start their business. i They couldn't. So, yeah, it was super exciting. So that was, there was it was a no-brainer.
00:07:47
Speaker
What does Ireland look like today? Actually, I'm curious how you think about that because, you know, Meta was Facebook at the time. All these other big companies, you know, established their European headquarters there. I think originally it was partially for tax purposes. yeah I also see a lot of strong cultural ties between Ireland and the U.S. The reason that companies made their their European headquarters there. There's tons of engineering talent there.
00:08:15
Speaker
you think that over time people stock options best, i feel like they want a little bit more flexibility or they want to do something creative, they want to start a business. I would just think that Dublin and and Ireland would be a hub of startups. So so what does that look like today? Do you actually know how many unicorns there are? That wasn't in the script, but I don't expect you to know.
00:08:38
Speaker
No, it wasn't. I want to talk about it too. So it's we're kind of going back to pre-pandemic now where Irish founders are getting on a plane and like two of them in particular I can think of are at Y Combinator now as part of their latest cohort. So it it is kind of going back to that. we We do have a thriving startup ecosystem, especially for tech.
00:09:02
Speaker
Stock options are more favorable for employees in the US. We need to sort out a few things. That's a political thing. Get into that another time. um so you know They're great, but they're not as advantageous as, you know, issuing them in the US. But anyway, all that said, it's a wonderful place to start a business. I'm still super happy.
00:09:23
Speaker
you know, growing and building my own business here. And we do have a tremendous amount of talent. The likes of big tech, you know, they bring in engineers and employees and product specialists and data specialists from all over the world, all different European countries as well. So yeah, it's a, it's a cool place to really, it's a cool place for tech.
00:09:44
Speaker
When you started at Tynes, Sarah, and then over the course of your time there, one of the things that we wanted to talk about that we think is important to your tenure is, and also this sort of work that you do today, is how you've worked with founders, how you've built trust with with founders. Talk us through how you did it at Tynes and maybe how you continue to build trust with founders in the consulting work that you do today.
Role at Tynes and Building Trust
00:10:11
Speaker
Yeah. i so i was positioned as a GC in times in the right place, the perfect place, right? So I was reporting to the CEO, I was on the executive leadership team. i had the I had that additional autonomy of building the legal function from scratch. um And you know, everything that comes with that. And the CEO that I was reporting to, who who is one of the co-founders,
00:10:39
Speaker
he ah He came from DocuSign. He was a security engineer there and he was a very good manager. He managed a lot of people and a natural born entrepreneur as well and manager, I think. So he hired me and then sort of got out of my way to let me get on with with with what I was doing. And because I was given that much respect, it really brought out, it made me feel like an equal to the founders as opposed to deferential or, you know, having to, being scared to disagree with them because of the, you know, they were the celebrity founders. So, you know, there was a good personality fit, but I i was so used to working with founders, I knew that on the one hand, they are some of the smartest people you'll ever meet, you know, and, you know, someone always seems smarter if they're smart in a different way, like if they're very, you know, from a STEM background, as opposed to law, because they they know a lot of stuff you don't. but but Like, could see you know,
00:11:34
Speaker
nonetheless, they're they have blind spots, they don't know everything and nor should they, no one does. So when it came to like how to strategically close a funding round as fast as possible by doing certain things in the beginning, you know, those are all things that I was able to explain and help with. So I knew I was adding value. And yeah, I i kind of know that even though these are super smart, successful, incredible people, but to, you know, when it came to certain things, they were coming on to my pitch, I wasn't going on to theirs, you know, so you have to
00:12:09
Speaker
i had I had a lot of confidence because I had so much seniority in autonomy, so i that was all very clear to me. you know When you started to think about Irish tech GC and starting that, I'm just curious to hear more about the journey.
Founding of Irish Tech General Council
00:12:23
Speaker
like Did this start when you were at times? How did it begin to grow? When did you say, okay, this is an inflection point and this might be a real thing that I want to invest in or start to build up?
00:12:35
Speaker
So I would say about seven day about a week after I started at Tynes, first functional hire, and I think any head of does this. About seven days in, they're like, oh, I really need to hire someone else to help me. i you know That wasn't an option because you know the the budget was the budget. I knew I wasn't going to be able to hire anyone full time. i And as I mentioned before, we had five tech unicorns. And I was wondering where all the other sort of cool modern business leader in house legal talent was, where was the community for us and I couldn't find one. I felt lonely for a long time. You know, I was the only lawyer at the company, and which actually mostly has upside because people aren't
00:13:21
Speaker
also lawyers that you work with, you know, but the only downside is they didn't really get your job. So I felt quite isolated. There were questions I needed answered about my job that I couldn't go to outside council floor. I just wanted to bounce it off someone doing the same job, you know? So I thought, but okay, I'll just set up a group myself. I thought it was going to be me and maybe five other people working at some of the big uh, tech companies here in similar positions like Flipdish, Wayflyer and so on. Yeah. And, and yet I still thought, you know what, I'm going to do this right. So I got someone in the, uh, marketing team helped me, uh, position like, ah like mission and who I was targeting and leveraging social media to launch and find members. Yeah. And so I did so. And even so, I thought it was going to be me and six other people, but actually, as soon as I announced
00:14:11
Speaker
overnight i had an interest from hundreds of people and outside tech as well i you know modestly thought oh it's only going to be people working in tech that are going to be interested but actually because of whatever i was selling not even intentionally selling but you know whatever i was selling they were interested it was all being business leader first and lawyer second how to leverage legal operations and technology and things like outsourcing to run a lean legal function even when you've just done a massive funding round you know. um So yeah all of those things that we're all talking about all the time now that you and I live and breathe in our jobs those are all new and novel and exciting.
00:14:51
Speaker
even three years ago. Well that wasn't even that long ago so that was when I started and I started doing regular in-person events. We were just coming out of the pandemic and all the lockdowns which you know we were very conservative in Ireland, had a lot of lockdowns to people that were really craving in-person connection. And yeah, that was how I got started. Did you, I'm curious, did you think of yourself as a founder? I mean, this journey is is so interesting. I think different people, different approaches, and there is this sort of Y Combinator approach, which you referenced earlier. But did you think of yourself as a founder at that point in time, or did you feel like this was more of
00:15:31
Speaker
in evolution. And today, you know, you think of yourself as a founder, but then you just maybe thought like, I need to organize an event because I want to learn and from and talk to people who are in similar positions. And I'm just curious how that how that fits in, and how you you view yourself in in your mind.
00:15:50
Speaker
Yeah, and that's a great question. No is the short ah answer. And even when i look even when I launched my business just over a year ago, I still didn't give myself that founder entrepreneur label. I just, I don't know why it's a modesty thing. I really don't. So no, and I certainly didn't when I launched ITGC, but I did, I was conscious of people seeing me as some kind of leader.
00:16:14
Speaker
and community builder and organized. Yeah, I was conscious of that, but ah no, I didn't see myself as a founder at all. I just thought I was a nice person doing a nice thing that ah would help other people. I really buzz off networking and not in the douchey sense of the term. I mean, the pure connection side of it, making new friends. So, you know, that's what I mean.
00:16:38
Speaker
And I buzz off connecting other people with each other so that they can become friends and they can you know learn from each other. So yeah, that was really what I thought I was doing. And so after a few months of running all of these events, I then i knew I wasn't leveraging LinkedIn right. I knew that a couple of posts were landing, especially where I shared my thoughts and views on things.
00:17:01
Speaker
um So I decided to do a course with Sarah Wiese, who I think you know on LinkedIn, she's a big um creator as well. So she is a former in-house lawyer, she now trains lawyers to find their voice on LinkedIn, and she helped me structure my content so it was strategic so that I was actually targeting in-house lawyers in Ireland to become members of ITGC.
Building a Personal Brand on LinkedIn
00:17:24
Speaker
And of course, I inadvertently built a personal brand. I built a global following. I grew my audience from something like 2000 to 10,000 in six months of yeah legal professionals. So legal ops, GCs, in-house lawyers of all all levels of of experience all over the world.
00:17:44
Speaker
especially in the US because where I was working at Tynes, something like 90% of their customers were in the US. So I was very connected in that ecosystem. and yeah Looking back, I can see now that in building community, I was building laying the foundations for a business. So I was building a market that I knew that you know law firms and tech companies would want to sell into.
00:18:11
Speaker
Then I built my personal brand, so I was kind of doing that was my marketing and brand awareness. And so, you know, we'll come on to this. But by the time I started my own business a year ago, the only piece that was left was monetization. So, you know, but no, that was a very long way of of saying no, I absolutely did not see myself as a founder back then.
00:18:31
Speaker
Right. So when was the time that you decided to go all in? Like, did you reach a threshold of, I'm going to commit to this and I think this could actually be a business here. And I think that I could use this to pay my bills.
00:18:43
Speaker
Yeah, so it actually wasn't my idea, it was the CEO I was reporting to, this founder, Owen Hinchey, suggested to me at one of ah one of my performance reviews, he said, do you not think you should go off and monetise this mountain of assets that you're sitting on? And he said, you know, I see how he's with you on LinkedIn and you know would you not going start your own business and i love to offer again modesty complex i was very flattered and but i love my job and. I was happy just doing it on the side but then fast forward to about six months later at my next performance review my thinking had caught up with his and you know when i was hired for that role it was pre.
00:19:26
Speaker
tech correct tech downturn that we've just been through the last three years, or it was about three years ago. His plan for me was that, you know, by now I would be managing a global team of about 50 lawyers and that didn't materialize because of the the downturn. So anyway, I just kind of thought, you know what, maybe it is time to give it a go. And he was very, very supportive. So we planned it well.
00:19:51
Speaker
Yeah, and now here I am, and he was right. I trust i got on with him so well and trusted him so much, I knew the i knew that he was probably right, so I thought, you know what, I'll just give it a go.
00:20:02
Speaker
Part of this, I think, that people are really familiar with is the sort of content that that you create. You've got sponsored content, which you create also. You create a lot of your own content. You've got events, sort of a traditional, more traditional community business. You have this consulting practice as well. I'm curious to hear more about that, actually.
Advisory Roles for Founders and GCs
00:20:23
Speaker
Who do you like to advise and then what does it look like when you're working with a general counsel versus a founder?
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah, so it's mostly B2B. So it's mostly advising founders growing a business and increasingly a lot of kind of legal tech marketing advice almost, you know, so I get a lot of legal tech startups that want to expand from the US s into a mere but aren't sure how to do that. Because of course, it's, you know, it's a nuanced continent, every country is very, it's not one big country, right? So I do a lot of that work. And then the D2C stuff, well, I guess it's technically It's technically B2B, it's GCs of companies that not not even just startups and scale ups. These are some some GCs of multinationals that want to, they want pointers or me to do either advise them directly or do training sessions for their teams on how to run a lean, modern, well-liked legal function and everything. so all All the different components of that. So it's different in the sense that with founders, we're talking big,
00:21:25
Speaker
their vision, their mission, their broad, long-term strategic goals. With GCs, there is a personal side of it. You know, sometimes they want to talk about what's holding them back on a personal level, you know, confidence-wise or something, it's kind of a bit of a therapy session as well, you know, just to get to the root of what might be holding them back. ah So yeah, it's very varied, it but it does differ in that sense.
00:21:51
Speaker
Okay, this is good. What are some common mistakes that you think GCs make when they're working with founders, having sort of like almost coached a lot of these GCs, talked to a lot of founders, gotten to know founders. I think you have a good sense for someone who starts a business, like like how do they tick? But what do you think the GCs are often missing and you know in the relationship that they develop with someone who's either the CEO or or really a founder of a business?
00:22:20
Speaker
Yeah, the so so scaleops startups and scale ups move fast. Every day things are evolving. There's 10 new people start, you know, your blink and 10 new people are hired. There's a new function function within a function expanding into new territories. Things are changing and suddenly ah priorities change as well. And you you have to become very comfortable operating in the gray, as they say in the US. And a lot of GCs come from very rigid, hierarchical,
00:22:50
Speaker
process driven backgrounds and they're not used to, they can't get comfortable with flexibility and being agile. And I think they find that very hard to let go of, but you really do have to sort of almost liberate yourself from the conditioning that we all go through in, you know, whether we have been a barrister or worked in a law firm or whatever, you really have to get comfortable with that flexibility. You do have to accept you need a higher appetite for risk.
00:23:18
Speaker
start up CEOs and founders, they, you know, they're, they're pro risk. You know, they have, this brings me on to my next point, actually, they have quarterly or monthly revenue targets to hit, they are held to account, you know, they're constantly reporting to their investors and board on those um metrics. And I think that's another thing that GC struggle with is getting on, being driven by the same revenue cadence, whatever it is, monthly or quarterly, and structuring their thoughts it in in those terms. So when I was GC, for instance, you know, I'd get through a busy end of quarter, and then the first two weeks of the next quarter, I was I made space to think about legal operations and operationalizing the legal function and and more strategic stuff so that I'm better at the end of next quarter.
Collaboration with Sales and Revenue Generation
00:24:13
Speaker
And I do think a lot of GCs find that quite difficult being flexible and you the higher appetite for risk that comes with that.
00:24:21
Speaker
yeah can we actually go a bit deeper on that? Because I know that's a place that you coach some GCs is how they can get closer to revenue generation for the business, how they can think about closing deals faster. And and I'm not talking about like some big M and&A transaction, right? I'm talking more about like the day-to-day contracts, getting these done, the sort of things that are driving revenue for the business. What do the relationships look like when you're coaching them on issues like that? And are they usually receptive or do you have to fight a little bit to get them to focus on this?
00:24:54
Speaker
that Yeah, they're usually very receptive. If they've come to me for help and taken the time to you know carve out an hour and pay me you know to coach them through this, they're usually receptive. This is all about cross-functional collaboration and positioning yourself as a business leader and making friends with key people in relevant functions like your CRO or your VP of Sales.
00:25:21
Speaker
you know the all the AEs whoever it is that you are inevitably going to be working with closely and need to work you know seamlessly as a unit with you need to start making friends across the business and stop being seen as some scary cliche you know and actually show people who you are you know Insert yourself into things like like sales kickoffs. Legal should be at that. I mean, i you know, we're now seeing it's just a kickoff, right? It's more like a company-wide offsite rather than just sales. We're all in revenue generation, right? But, you know, insert yourself into those meetings. Join forecast calls.
00:25:58
Speaker
have monthly one-to-ones with whoever's kind of relevant, the the most appropriate person that's senior in sales, if but whether that's the VP of sales or CRO, whoever that is, um and sometimes in different jurisdictions too. So I used to regularly catch up with people, the the the sales leaders that were based on the West Coast of the US s and the East Coast and then EMEA. It's really understanding that sales process and when you need to insert yourself into the sales team just to work more collaboratively. But you do need to get on the buzz of being in revenue generation and in sales in that in that respect too. You're not just a lawyer.
00:26:39
Speaker
One thing I'd like to hear more about is how you're thinking about growing your
Documenting the Founder Journey
00:26:43
Speaker
business. I mean, of course we've talked about your personal brand on LinkedIn and then the content that you create really helps with that. You also document the ups and downs of being a founder, which I really enjoy. I love those posts. I think it's interesting. I think there's something that's different. It's not just, you know, thoughts on what's happening in legal hiring or some sort of court case. How'd you decide to start doing that and making that series of posts?
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah. And this is another thing I was started doing, Tyler, because in my gut, it just felt like I wanted to hold myself accountable to everyone that follows me on LinkedIn in public. I was like, and yeah i knew the I knew that just starting to share how I was getting on weekly would resonate with people because they genuinely cared. And we're also very curious to actually hear about the downside of starting your own business. There's so much bravado and found to land and everything's, you know, like it's all super cool and it's all rosy in the garden and everything's going really well. And no one really talks about how regularly you feel like, you know, so how regularly you think, God, this sucks or I have not had a good day. I'm really worried.
00:27:59
Speaker
about paying the bills for the rest of my life. And these are all things that employees should probably worry about too, because no job is carved in stone, right? But sure it's so much more in your face when suddenly you're the person responsible for finding paying clients and payrolling yourself and and so on. So It just, I just thought one day, oh, I'll just sit down and see how this post lands, just announcing the, you know, how my highs and lows for the week, kind of journaling. And Pete, the next thing, I was inundated with, like, wish it good wishes about how much everyone was enjoying that kind of content. So I thought, oh, I'll make it a regular thing. Founder Fridays, highs, lows and epiphanies. And people love it. They really love it. And then it's nice for me. Again, it holds me accountable. It's a good way, even it's good therapy, too. It's like,
00:28:48
Speaker
journaling about things, but a bit more professional. So yeah, and then i I later learned that that's like a building in public content strategy. I didn't even know that's what I was doing. That's what I'm doing as well. Always ahead of the content. But you can put a name to it. Yeah, building in public.
00:29:07
Speaker
Yeah. You've now had the benefit of doing a lot of those. Okay. I'm curious, uh, maybe what's the most fun part, best part about being a founder, maybe the most challenging part about being a founder and, you know, among those two, also something that's sort of surprising or very different about this experience that you didn't expect. The best part is definitely the sense of accomplishment you get from building things and them landing well. And that that happens quite a lot for me because I'm you know i'm not in my 20s anymore. I have a lot of experience under my belt um and I've started a business ah a good age.
00:29:51
Speaker
And I don't have time to spend three years seeing if something will work, burning through my savings in the process. You know, I, I listened to where there is demand. I listened to negative feedback. I decide whether I want to do something about that or whether it's actually not for me. So.
00:30:13
Speaker
But yeah, i really that sense of achievement and validation as ah as a human being and ah and a professional that I get when something works really well and just that sort of productive feeling of building something is just really so motivating and makes me really happy. So those things work really well.
00:30:34
Speaker
And then seeing that you know clients are getting results as well and good feedback and and that they're happy too. What don't I like or hasn't worked well? Well, just a reaction to the the thing the first thing that you said there. I mean, you know and I'll give you a second to think about the most challenging part about being a founder, but really what you're describing is a sort of creative pursuit. And I think that's something that's very cool about what you're doing.
00:30:59
Speaker
I think that oftentimes people don't quite put it in that lens, right? They're like, oh, you know, there's like an event over here. There's content over here. Like really what we're talking about is a lot of experimentation and having a vision and testing that vision and sort of constantly experimenting and refining it. And you have to draw on a lot of the different experiences that you've had. So I think that's one of the cool things about the journey that you're on is that that it's really creative.
00:31:24
Speaker
Yeah, I know. I like that. That's a good way of describing it. It is sort of the creativity of it in in the pure creative sense of creating, being a creator and content and playing around in Canva, but creating something that's innovative and new. the you know And I seem to have developed a good instinct for where I should position myself in the market too. and you know Did the down, what was the question? The downside. The most challenging part about being a founder. And then maybe I'm curious sort of like wrapped in that, um, if there was an aspect of it that's that's surprising to you, um, that was unexpected about the experience too. Yeah. The most challenging part I think is the most challenging part.
00:32:09
Speaker
I like challenges, Tyler, you see. A challenge, I think just, I think the main challenge is kind of keeping on top of what's happening in the market and tailoring what I'm selling to that. So for instance, generative AI, even 14 months ago had only just come on, you know, exploded onto the market, but it hadn't disrupted the CLM space or, you know, as much.
00:32:36
Speaker
as it has now so you know in this insanely fast moving legal tech landscape it is challenging keeping on top of that especially now that i'm not working in house anymore so i have to dedicate more time to playing around with tools and the innovation that's out there but again that's a nice problem to have i love that challenge oh no learn how to use ai oh no you know that's not a problem So where are you hoping the business is going to go over the course of the next couple of years?
Business Growth Plans and Adaptability
00:33:06
Speaker
Are you hoping to grow or do you like where it's at? Yeah, what's what's that like? Yeah, i so I think and mo hope i'm ah I'm hoping to grow it on based on pure revenue generation. What that shapes up to be
00:33:23
Speaker
I'm very flexible about, you know, the money I thought I'd be making money 12 months ago in very different ways, um ah compared to now. And I've really leaned into the ikigai concept, right? Like what there's a need for, what people are prepared to pay me for. um And what I'm passionate about is the main piece of that, right? And that's something a lot of people in our careers, we don't prioritize passion, certainly not in our 20s, we're getting experience, we're trying to earn a decent paycheck, you know, constantly asking for pay rises. So now it's nice to bring that passion piece into things.
00:33:58
Speaker
And as long as I'm still checking all of those boxes, and that's the formula, I'm pretty flexible about where the revenue comes from. But I'm very diversified, so I make money in lots of different ways. ah Yeah, i I have no doubt, given how fast things are moving, especially in terms of AI, I've no doubt that how I'm making money in another 12 months will be very different to today, which I find terribly thrilling.
00:34:26
Speaker
Not terribly terrifying, terribly thrilling. I love that. If folks want to find more of your content, I mean besides following you on LinkedIn, where should they look?
00:34:38
Speaker
So I have a Beehive newsletter as well, which ah you can also, I have a link to that on my LinkedIn profile. If they want to email me, sarahirishtechgc.com. I am, I'm running a lot of webinars this year. So, which people are really excited about. So I have another one coming up next week. I've got another one in February. I'm doing one with Spotdraft as well in ah March, which is, yeah.
00:35:04
Speaker
So yeah, so really looking forward to that. um Yeah, my Beehive newsletter is definitely a good way to keep in on on top of all of my kind of in-house updates. Okay, sweet.
Daily Moments and Inspiration
00:35:17
Speaker
I've got a fun couple of fun questions for you as we start to close this out. The first one is what your favorite part of your day today is.
00:35:28
Speaker
I think it is those moments when I step away from the desk and go for a swim or walk to clear my head and new business ideas just reveal themselves. I love that. Brainstorming in like unexpected places or when your brain is sort of partially turned off. yeah and you know It's not that I'm not being mindful. I'm fully present swimming. It's just that I've cleared the clutter in my brain so much so that an amazing new idea just comes to me. I'm not even trying. you know That's a really wonderful part of my day and it happens every day.
00:36:07
Speaker
How about do you have a professional pet peeve? Not really, I'm a very patient tolerant person. you just find since We've all gone online and everything's digitised now. You know, all bets are off in terms of traditional manners and... No, I don't think... Honestly, I couldn't come up with an answer to this. You have one.
00:36:31
Speaker
Okay, well, I think another guest said this. I liked this answer a lot. It's it's people who don't treat their work through a sort of like ownership mindset or through the lens of of being an owner. I think that's probably the best way to sum it up. I thought that was a really good answer and something that I would agree with. um That's not to say, of course, that you should own every outcome or or own every answer. i mean Sometimes you don't have the right answer. Sometimes you just steer them in a different direction. Sometimes someone else might be abdicating responsibility and, um you know, you really need to sort of push them to actually take on the the task and you need to take that responsibility. But ultimately, I think even in those cases, you're still owning the outcome. You're owning the problem getting solved in any of those circumstances. You just know that you're not always the person who's going to have responsibility for actually completing the task or or finding the answer. You're facilitating it happening. I thought that was a great answer. That is a fantastic answer. And it you know what, when you are growing a business, but if when you're working at a startup or scale up, everyone needs to be an owner, you know, that's even more pronounced when you're building. Yeah, that's a terrific answer. so
00:37:45
Speaker
Unlike, you know, people who kind of like wave it off or pass the buck. Yeah. And I mean, I'll, I'll just add onto that, I think, which is to say, especially it's true anywhere, but I think it's especially true in the startup environment. You know, I had a boss who said to me once, like knowledge, a cruise. I probably said this on the podcast before. In other words, you attend maybe a sales meeting and you don't know exactly what, you know, where the information that you're, you're learning or listening to, or that you'd make.
00:38:13
Speaker
not want to be listening to is going to lead you. And then, you know, like, were you listening to it? But then six months later, a light bulb goes off and you think, Hmm, my job might be in compliance, not in sales. But I remember that thing that they were talking about. And I remember that meeting and I have to convince the sales team to pay attention to something that I'm doing that's really important. And, you know, you're able to leverage that knowledge. And as opposed to just saying like, no, no, no, I'm going to be like really good at my job in this little corner over here. Yeah. Yeah. That's a terrific answer. I'll write that down next time. i um And next on the next podcast, if they ask you about pet peeves. Yeah. and you oh Okay. A book that you would recommend to our listeners and look, this can be something fun. It can be something you read recently, like over winter break.
00:39:09
Speaker
Yeah, so it's not a book. I have recently rekindled my love of reading magazines. right Yeah, you know, they're a lot better now than they used to be. They've got better articles in them, like Vogue and stuff like that. it's quite I'm really enjoying just hard copy magazine reading. I think for um the younger generations, Instagram and TikTok are their magazines, but I'm just really enjoying kind of having something physical to hold and read.
Enjoyment of Reading Physical Magazines
00:39:38
Speaker
So, and it's funny you say that my birthday's in a couple weeks and I've been thinking about asking for a subscription to the New Yorker magazine or or something like that, right? Get back reading a physical copy. Not that I don't already have it on my Apple News app, but there's something better about I feel like holding it up. I mean, I only read physical books. Sorry to all the Kindle readers out there.
00:40:00
Speaker
Yeah, the I get the Economist. I love the Economist. and I actually him he bought a few of those. I bought them all during when the pandemic kicked off and they're now probably collectors items, you know?
00:40:15
Speaker
so All right, as we start to wrap up my sort of traditional closing question for guests that I like to ask, it's if you could look back on your days of being a young lawyer, something that you know now, that you wish that you'd known back then.
00:40:35
Speaker
I wish I had known that we were about to enter the era of nonlinear careers where people were and that I was going to have at least, I was going to change jobs at least three, four different times in my career. um When I graduated,
00:40:57
Speaker
Most people that were senior at work were boomers who had spent 35 years in the same job. Fine. That, that was just how it was. I wish I had known that I didn't, you know, I was so stressed making decisions based on the fact that I might have to do something for the next 35 years. You know, I wish I'd known that actually, listen, you do something for five years, it's cool. Then you move on to something else.
00:41:21
Speaker
And you know what, your prospects and money and career you know that will all continue to grow. yes So i wish I wish I'd known that. Well, yes, that's one of the main themes of this podcast. So what a perfect way to conclude. Thanks for joining me today, Sarah. and This has been a lot of fun. yeah it was And to all of our listeners, thanks so much for tuning in and we hope to see you next time.