Transcript
Speaker: Well Dustin, good to see you again. Good to see you again. Yeah. Uh, answering pilots. So always glad to be here. Yep. Me too. And we've got a lot to talk about. Sure. And we want to follow up on some different things as we move forward. But today we just thought we'd talk about this whole.
Speaker: Lindsey Clancy trial. Sure. Last week declared a mistrial. um And a lot of folk are weighing in on it. And I haven't had the opportunity to really.
Speaker: listen to all of that or watch all of that even even read a whole lot i think i know the The bare bones of what's going on? Sure. Um, Because I've looked that up. but the reason it came across my radar of course everybody's talking about it and You know, we try to think theologically, biblically at a worldview level. so We want to weigh in on that just a bit. So we're going to.
Speaker: Wade into the... wade into the conversation as it were and yeah we don't necessarily uh intend to hit on every current event situation but Um,
Speaker: When certain things come up, I think they are poignant. um to our discussion and um And the larger. Discussion of again. as our premise for this.
Speaker: Podcast is what is truth. Yeah. What is what is the truth? of the word of god have to say about a situation like this and and the larger Um,
Speaker: aspects of our society. and and where we are as a culture. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And. um I think that we talked about this a little bit over the last few days. our culture, and and even a lot of folk in the church, that our thinking has become muddled. in terms of justice. Sure. how things should be.
Speaker: um handled in that regard. So that that's the theological the larger theological issue. So that's what we're... about today, but just a little bit of a background. um For those who may not know at all. uh lindsey clancy uh tragically sadly Um,
Speaker: i I mean, i I have to be blunt. She strangled her three children. right um And of course she's been on trial. And a lot of people are talking about it. You get women on social media.
Speaker: For example, and And there's a significant number of women. In fact, I'd say most women, at least in that sphere. um I don't know if it's most across the country. But it's a lot, and it's a lot in the church even. But they're actually trying to.
Speaker: defend her to a certain degree. I mean, on the one hand, they're saying Well, she should be found. Not guilty by reason of insanity. But not only that, a lot of them. Or saying things like.
Speaker: and she really loved her children and of course i just found that appalling to to hear someone say she loved her children, and yet she she takes the time to strangle the children. Right, right. Yeah, because...
Speaker: One of the things that they're arguing is the fact that she also tried to take her own life. And I guess the reasoning that they're using is that. Uh, She really just wanted to commit suicide, um which is tragic in and of itself. Sure. but that she didn't want to leave her children without a mother. And so basically it's almost being treated like it was a mercy killing to kill these three kids. yeah And then, as we obviously know, she was unsuccessful in her own.
Speaker: attempt on her own life. um And, but. suffered lifelong injuries from it. She did, sadly. um But, again... um that as we said that's all sad and tragic but It doesn't take away the fact of what she did to her children. That's right. That's right.
Speaker: And I do think it's important to note as well that. Um, She jumped out of a second story window. I think she had slashed her wrist as well, perhaps. I think so, yes. Maybe her throat to a certain degree. Maybe, yeah. I don't know all the details.
Speaker: i do know that when the paramedics arrived and all of that they testified that Um... she She seemed to be... uh i don't i don't I don't know the exact words, but... They fell on the side of... ah she She didn't seem to be experiencing a psychotic break with reality, that that she was rational, she knew what she was doing.
Speaker: I won't get into all of that. I i do think it's important for us to to talk about. ah The defense, you know, part of their defense was just that, that she was suffering from postpartum psychosis. Yeah, the defense is not.
Speaker: that They're saying that she didn't do it. Right. She's confessed. Yeah. Her defense has conceded. that she definitely did it yeah there's no question about who murdered these three children that's right um but it's whether or not she should be found criminally liable for it. uh because of this whole
Speaker: plea of insanity. Yeah, that's it. Despite the fact that there were a lot of women, and it may have been early on, I'm not sure about the timetable here. they were claiming that the husband did it and uh and i think a lot of them were like well maybe Maybe it's not that he physically did it, but it was his fault. yeah and And that's part of what we want to talk about today. So you got all of that going on.
Speaker: Um, the The defense is also talking about... and And we want to talk about psychosis in just a minute. We're not just going to leave that on the table. uh, without dealing with it briefly. Um, but they're also claiming that it there's a systemic failure on the the part of the healthcare system. She, she didn't get the the kind of.
Speaker: postpartum health care that she needed. Listen. i'm I'm not going to argue that the healthcare system is not filled with problems. i'm I'm not going to argue that in many ways it's not broken. I think it is. Sure. I don't think it's a defense for what was going on with her, but nevertheless.
Speaker: you know, we could certainly. understand that yeah i mean ironically um if i'm not mistaken she was actually a nurse but Yes, that's right. So she worked in the medical field. Well, no that she delivered babies. And would have had access to...
Speaker: uh these medications probably more easily and readily than your average mom right have right Yeah. So she knew a lot about, uh, yeah You know, babies being born and all that, that's that's the part of the, what do they call it? to I can't even remember the technical term. Labor and delivery. Yeah. Labor and delivery. That's what they call it. Big sign right down there at the local hospital. Labor and delivery. the maternity ward maternity ward that's right that's right i've been there before but uh Anyway.
Speaker: um At least three times, right? Yeah, yeah. yeah Well, three three of my own and then plus plus the grandchildren. Same. Yeah. any grandchildren for me yet right right you're too young praise god but anyway um And then I think they're also talking about... Um,
Speaker: not Not just the healthcare system and in terms of caring for her with a postpartum experience, but... over -medication.
Speaker: The psychology industry, you can connect it to the pharmaceutical. industry as well. Um... had a a you know, a cocktail of medications here and there. And of course.
Speaker: There's evidence and testimony that she was sporadic on. the the you know how consistent she was in taking certain drugs etc etc But, uh. Anyway, that's that's kind of where not only the defense team, but sort of the...
Speaker: the The women that are defending her. Yeah. There's there's this real empathy that that these women have for her. And we want to deal with that as well. We don't want to just leave that on the table. We'll come back to that.
Speaker: uh in just a moment but uh Anyway. let's Let's just... let cover some of the Some of what the prosecution is saying, some of it will... be pitted against what we've what what we've already said yeah as as the defense team.
Speaker: um arguments but uh Again, it'll help us in our larger discussion, but this is just giving background. But... the Basically, they're saying you can't.
Speaker: Claim. psychosis, which by the way, Psychosis, let's just deal with that briefly. Okay. Psychosis is not the same thing as like extreme depression. um it's It's different. it's It's defined legally, I guess, medically.
Speaker: as a break from reality where you're experiencing hallucinations. um Delusions. Um, chain and And they... They they can... ah It manifests in different ways, but certainly.
Speaker: differences in, in your normal patterns of behavior. Um, Differences in in the way that you talk, just incoherency. Things of that nature. In an extreme nature. In an extreme, absolutely. Not just that you're a little off that day. Right. That you're... acting totally contrary to what is normal for that's right that's right And it's got to be something that's demonstrated over time too. They'll take and come on pretty rapidly.
Speaker: But in terms of... um you know, someone who. is declared legally insane. That of course happens over time. Uh, postpartum, they can say can.
Speaker: you know, perhaps come on rapidly, but there again. There are means that even the the psychology... world uses. to determine whether or not you're um actually experiencing psychosis or whether you're faking it, that their term malingering.
Speaker: yeah You know, and. you know they've got all these tests these psychological tests and different things where. They feel like they can tell. you know based on normal patterns of psychotic behavior.
Speaker: Um, you know, different answers to different questions. ah Usually how they describe, like if they're hearing voices, I think she claimed to. Hear a man's voice saying, kill your children. you know,
Speaker: There are different ways that people describe. what it feels like or sounds like when they're hearing voices. and you know All of those things have to line up. Again, I'm gonna...
Speaker: Push back a little bit on that and say, wow. that'd still be pretty hard to determine um but we'll we'll come to that i'll i'll leave off for now but well yeah and like i said we'll leave off but yeah i would i i would just say too that um kind of hearkening back to some of our previous discussions on science. um I think this points out how.
Speaker: difficult it is to call this scientific. um because It's... But there's still just a lot of guesswork, for lack of a better way to say it.
Speaker: That's taking place with a psychiatric. Oh, yeah. There's not... hard and set. scientific Markers. Yeah. We're following to. you know.
Speaker: If someone has a heart condition, you know We can do scientific tests. yeah that give us clear data yeah that says okay this person has a blockage in their artery and we need to do something about it Yeah. um It's, it's.
Speaker: There's a lot. It's a lot more cloudy. When we're dealing with. these. quote -unquote. mental issue yeah and again i don't say that to minimize no um what certain people may be going through right but when we put it in this certain category yeah of a mental issue or psychotic issue. um
Speaker: It's women. It becomes a lot. more cloudy and and we can't really treat it as science yeah no they go down that road that's right yeah we've been ringing that bell for almost 30 years right um We're not Johnny -come -latelys to this, and and we're not... Criticizing those who are just now realizing that we're thrilled with that. But even in the medical field itself.
Speaker: um A lot of medical doctors look askance at psychology. And there are psychologists who will tell you it's not science. It's a pseudoscience. It's a worldview. It's a religion.
Speaker: we've We've got quotes going back, again, like I said, more than 30 years. The quotes, more than 30 years and more recent, and now you've got... Um, a significant you you've got the in this the psychology industry itself now admitting.
Speaker: that psychotropic medication ah causes, actually increases thoughts of suicide. in ah in a significant number of people. We know, for example, and and again, we're going to get into a discussion of this. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the things we're just sort of.
Speaker: talking about what what's being said, and then we're going to come back. So I guess we're jumping the gun a little bit, but that's okay. I didn't mean to push that. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm glad you did. But, um... you know, every one of the these school shootings, um mass mass shootings. since Columbine Every one of them. the The perpetrators have been on psychotropic medication. There's there's a connection there.
Speaker: Uh... A lot of them and a lot of people not only increase your... suicidal thoughts, but they and increase these violent thoughts. And and and the social... barriers that we normally have. um Impulsivity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of those, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: you know, we're we're not as prone to to restrain ourselves or whatever the case may be. Somebody just first asked me about. this issue, I guess it was a couple of weeks ago. And again, I hadn't really... been thinking about it, but just you know right off the top of my head.
Speaker: you know, I was able to tick off. well Certainly, there there are problems. in in the healthcare system. There are problems in... ah the psychology industry. um I think.
Speaker: uh the sensationalization of everything in our in our constant entertainment culture. just by way of example okay i mean when when i was growing up you had the evening news basically yeah and And now it's, you know, with CNN, I guess you have 24 -7 and now everything's 24 -7. Well, and and even beyond that, I mean, CNN's now old news. Yeah. No pun intended. No, that's right. Or maybe it was a pun intended. But anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: The fact that you can just pull your phone out and you can have 24 -7 access to news from multiple different sources. And. hard to verify which ones are accurate or true or not too.
Speaker: And so sometimes you're getting information that's not even accurate, yeah but it gets disseminated. um In a. a widespread way. Because. It's the entertainment culture. you top It gets clicks, it gets views, it gets subscriptions.
Speaker: um And in a lot of. what people are viewing or reading or listening to as news. is content. yeah that's it from content creators yeah they're just pushing something out because they know that people are going to take it in yeah they're going to consume it and that's going to get them more clicks and more views and it's going to make them money yeah it's It's like the old, was it Don Henley? Uh, uh,
Speaker: Dirty laundry. Dirty laundry. Yeah. Yeah. He's talking about the news. Just, you know, the more sensational is give it to us. We we want to see that. Because I was watching a ah man on the street.
Speaker: kind of thing the other day. And um this person was confronting someone about a different social issue and I won't go down the road of what they were talking about. But he asked this person. uh point blank um where do you get your news from and they said from tiktok Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: And so, you know, it's changed. Yeah. Yeah. But to your. broader point Not only CNN, but there's there are a million different avenues that people can get.
Speaker: Right. Before seven. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not just the entertainment, of you know, like the 24 -7 television, because like you say. A lot of people. they i don't I don't watch television anymore. right and I watch ballgame, but that's about it. I don't watch news. yeah I get my news off of social media. But, but it's not just that in the 24 seven and the entertainment.
Speaker: But it's it's everybody commenting. Yes. Which is part of what you're talking about. and And again, some people are. Um, Careful researchers, and some people aren't, and and some people are just... bots and...
Speaker: They're not people, they're bots. right right yeah and and And they're pushing these agendas. and so All of this is is problematic. now Now, I will say this. I was having a discussion the other day in the coffee shop with... ah with some yeah ah men before before work.
Speaker: Because it was early. I mean, it really was. But anyhow. They were talking about how, well, the the trial. where where we talk about a um a criminal trial on on television or wherever.
Speaker: One of the reasons to to to do that publicly. is to say to the public. that there is a difference between right and wrong. and and And we live in a civil society and we hold people accountable and justice is justice. and and and and And I agree. I think that that that might have been even a motive.
Speaker: In the beginning. But I do remember you you couldn't bring the cameras into the courtroom when I was growing up. They're in there now. Yeah. And. um And again, the whole entertainment. sensationalization.
Speaker: Uh. I could be completely wrong. But I do remember when Columbine happened. Yeah. It was unbelievable. It's it's like 9 -11. Yeah. and Unbelievable. and in And listen, I was glued to the television just like everyone else when that happened. i went in Yep. Was it CNN? Yeah. Okay. I'm sure. Yeah. Anyhow.
Speaker: Um... the the The point being, though. When you do that. Yeah. Whether it plants seeds or whether just the sheer nature of it. You know, oh, I never thought about that. Or this is how I get my 15 minutes of fame.
Speaker: I do not believe that we would have had. the same number of mass school shootings. that we've had. Had we n - had we not not gotten so much attention yeah and how we not deal with it that way um and Now, there are other reasons that we've had these mass shootings. I think psychotropic medication is one of them. Yeah. So, yeah. um Right.
Speaker: I think that the the mental health industry. um plays a role yeah we've already said um the sensationalism of the news and copycats. yeah that that will pop up um even even this particular Um,
Speaker: story that we're talking about. I mean, I remember, um I mean... Close to our neck of the woods, Susan Smith. yeah um oh yeah that was what 30 years ago now i guess unbelievable yeah uh probably but very similar you know and and obviously there are There are stories like this that that have taken place yeah over the years. and And sadly, when it gets more.
Speaker: um publicized like it has been then you do have the risk for copycats To rise up. yeah um And. So so there's there's that proliferation.
Speaker: But also, you mentioned the comments section, and and that that... plays a major role. Because that comment section becomes an echo chamber. Mm -hmm.
Speaker: Where. Um, These people are coming in with their own opinions and own ideas on it that aren't based in fact. They're based in emotion. They're based in... you know, the the the culture of our time. And they're influenced by that and people start.
Speaker: echoing each other and and affirming one another. yeah and so then that voice gets louder and louder and louder and then that becomes the prevailing narrative that comes out of that story and that's when we get these situations like this where uh this woman shouldn't be held accountable because of this this and this and it's not her fault and And again, going back to there is a huge focus in our culture on.
Speaker: this Yeah. mental health. Mm -hmm. And in that. Everybody has. some sort of mental health crisis now. um yeah And again,
Speaker: We're not negating the fact that. that people have stress and people have. Um, problems And people have stuff that's hard to deal with. And and life is hard. yeah and And maybe harder now than it was.
Speaker: When we were kids, you know, or, or you know. um in in some ways. In some ways, not. um We're not storming Normandy or anything like that. Right. um But at the same time, yeah.
Speaker: Things are hard, sure but everything gets turned into. at some sort of mental health. issue for me. And. that on even on a smaller scale Because I have anxiety or because I have depression or because I have...
Speaker: Fill in the blank. Right. than that. excuses certain behaviors that I may have. Yeah. And. And again, sometimes that's kind of met with an eye roll and it's, you know, we. kind of treat it like that.
Speaker: But this. story that we're talking about is a case study. in where that logical fallacy ends us up at. Yeah. Um, in that, okay. It doesn't just mean that I can excuse being rude.
Speaker: because you know I'm triggered by something that is affecting my mental mental health. Mm hmm. It's that slippery slope to where we can end up with, okay, so now...
Speaker: A lot of people are saying. I can murder my three children. and it's because of my mental health yeah and i'm not responsible for that yeah Yeah, I mean, you you've hit on it and you've hit on two or three things and and we can explore a couple of them.
Speaker: As we go. I want to get back. uh also to the what the prosecution is saying yeah because uh Got to get that on the table. But. Hit it. I don't mind just a freewheeling conversation. I'm not trying to be a slave to an outline. but I just want folk to understand what's happening, but yeah anyhow. That's not a rebuke. It's like...
Speaker: May it. There's so much. oh yeah we Yeah. As always, we need more than one broadcast. Hopefully we'll just you deal with it here and move on. yeah But. ah We're going to get to theological and worldview issues. sure But we'll we'll just deal with those over time.
Speaker: Anyhow. um I think the larger. What you said. Uh, you mentioned empathy. Okay, you've got this issue now, this this little phrase that's been coined of toxic empathy, and a lot of folk don't know what that means.
Speaker: I mean, there's a genuine empathy that's good, you know. would We sympathize with folk. which is we grieve. uh over for them and with them over what they're going through empathize We try to put ourselves in their shoes.
Speaker: But the toxic empathy, folks think, well, how can empathy be toxic? well Empathy is different. The illustration that that I've used. and I don't know if I came up with it or I got it somewhere else. I honestly don't know. I usually, but.
Speaker: Over time, things get muddled, but... um I'm around the swimming pool a lot. and so maybe Maybe I came up with it, but i I'm not going to swear to that because I don't know. I promise.
Speaker: But anyway. I think of ah sympathy. Let's just say I'm a lifeguard and somebody's in the pool and they're drowning. All right. I'm sympathetic to to what's happening there.
Speaker: It bothers me, and it bothers me so much. I'm going to move to action. Do something about it. Yeah. And so I'm going to... One of the things I could do is take that live preserver and throw it to them. and you know reel them in. I'm standing on the deck.
Speaker: Um, Or you know if you have to get in, you know now they have these. tubes that you carry and You get that between you and them so they don't take you down with them like they punch you in the nose or something. Right. Anyway, they're techniques. It's it's a whole lot different than when I was 16 and I was a lifeguard. Yeah. You just go in and grab them. Right, yeah.
Speaker: But anyway, that's another story. And there were there were techniques on how you did that, but nevertheless, they cut behind them underneath and all this stuff. But anyway. Um. But toxic empathy or empathy would be.
Speaker: I want to enter into what you're experiencing. And so I'm just going to jump in, grab onto you, and we're both going to drown together. Well, that doesn't do anybody any good. And so it might not be a perfect illustration, but that's kind of how I think of toxic empathy. Yeah. And I think that's, again,
Speaker: That's the difference between toxic empathy and what we would call. But again, we said. is a good thing. like ah We want to be empathetic. But again, I was taught in English class. Yeah, sympathy.
Speaker: is when I feel... Sorry for you. because I see the plight that you're going through. Right. But again, I'm the lifeguard. yeah sitting up in the stand.
Speaker: And I'm not in it with you. If I have empathy for you, it's because. I've been there. Yeah, there you go. yeah I'm empathetic with you. Just random thing that pops in my head. Okay.
Speaker: So you lost your mother. Not too long ago. I lost my father not too long ago. we can empathize with one another. on the feelings of losing a parent yes because we've both been through that. yes The toxic empathy is where I'm trying to force myself.
Speaker: Into your same. ah situation. Yeah. And um it's not because I've experienced it. It's because I'm going to make myself.
Speaker: experience it the same. Um, and and And then make an excuse for right right right right whatever you do in that situation. yeah I can empathize to the... in the toxic form not to interrupt you no but i can empathize to such a degree that if you if you're just If you're just experiencing such a hard time, these kids are such a burden to you, which is part of our culture. It's one of those cultural issues.
Speaker: Yeah I can see how you would kill them. Cause it's just, it's too much for you and and you deserve. You know, you deserve peace. Listen, brother, that's that's. part of what's going on in this situation. Yeah, that I deserve. line of thinking. She's a victim. She's a victim of her own children. She's a victim of being a mother. Yeah, right. Yeah.
Speaker: and And so all of these. issues. they they You know, you pull back, okay, well, these are worldview issues. What what is your view of the world? And like you were talking about the echo chamber.
Speaker: People who... They don't know anything about. The justice system that we have in our country, they don't know that the justice system is rooted in biblical. worldview. They don't even know what a biblical worldview is. They just know they're empathetic. Mm hmm. And even to the degree.
Speaker: This is so grievous to me that that that a lot of Christians are empathizing. But then you've got other Christians. who don't know how to separate issues. I won't call names, but at least two.
Speaker: that are that are pretty... Well, they're major influencers. They're conservative. Um. they they They're in that larger... Christian world. They're not Protestant, but nevertheless.
Speaker: Um, They'll, they'll... the the They've come out, at least one of them. I think both of them are the same way. Maybe the other. I'm not sure exactly what her argument is. but One of them is like.
Speaker: You know, you'll never get her to defend big pharma because of what big pharma has is and and what they've been exposed to be and COVID and all that. Okay. Listen, I agree with that. hundred I agree a hundred percent.
Speaker: But just because. ah Big Pharma has perpetrated. A lot of. ah ah evil on people yeah doesn't mean you don't hold someone accountable. Right. It doesn't mean that every evil that has taken place Uh, that.
Speaker: is correlated to some sort of medication. that That doesn't mean that it that it solely falls at the feet of big pharma. Yeah, yeah, that's right. that there's There's still got to be.
Speaker: accountability yeah for the individual yeah there are things like moral agency and culpability and and all of that, which which we want to get to. um But before we leave this whole issue of of psychosis and...
Speaker: you know, what's what's going on in the court. Real quick, the... the The prosecution. Yeah. You know, part of their argument was. that the she she planned out.
Speaker: these murders. I mean, she and she had done research on the internet beforehand. I don't know how long, but a period of time. Uh, How do you strangle someone? how How long does it take for someone to die if you strangle them? I mean, unbelievable.
Speaker: And then, of course, on On the night she did it. or day, whenever it was, ah she sent out her husband. to To pick up something, I think. for Food.
Speaker: I think it was, but it was like on the other side of town. Yeah, something like that. She wanted something from a place that was... A long way away. Yeah. And maybe she needed be gone some cold medicine or something as well. Maybe run by the store. Okay. Yeah. I think it was both.
Speaker: Anyhow... Also, while she was in the midst of... doing what she did and it took Bye. ah ah One report I heard, so again, take this for what it's worth. but It took... Six or seven minutes to to strangle each child one at a time with a...
Speaker: well Exercise bands? Exercise bands. Yeah. and And in the middle of this going on, she gets a call from her husband who's like, Hey, is the off brand or the the name brand? one and she literally answers him in a comment yeah like nothing's going on right and then of course um When he gets home.
Speaker: I don't even want to think about it discovering his children, discovering her. And the 911 call they say is horrific. I did not listen to it. I don't want to listen to it. That's just me. Um,
Speaker: Anyway, the point being. She did not evidence a... a Break with reality. You know, the planning. the calmness clear evidence of premeditation right and and yeah i mean again even if it was one child.
Speaker: That. Evidence. of the prior research and all of that. would be enough for me to say, okay, she knew what she was doing and she yeah did it. Yeah. But. then to to add to the fact that she did it to one child and then she did it to a second child And then she did it to a third child.
Speaker: I mean... That... Yeah, I mean, that I don't see how you can say that that was just a moment of weakness or yeah whatever or psychosis or whatever. Well, yeah.
Speaker: And. Of course, you know they were saying it happened. You know, through the postpartum and all that. but and And they had ah medical folk testify. But you know what? The prosecution had medical experts as well. And this is the evidence they cited that she she didn't.
Speaker: meet the criteria the medical standard criteria for psychosis. and Um. So not only the planning and the coordinated tasks. They put up these medical experts.
Speaker: um One of the... Uh... who basically said, no, she knew what she was doing. One of the defense medical experts said, Clearly she... ah was psychotic clearly she had a break with reality clearly she could not distinguish right from wrong in what she was doing.
Speaker: Well, on the one hand, Whether or not you can distinguish right from wrong, that's not the definition of psychosis. You know, psychosis, again.
Speaker: I mean, there's a lot of people who don't distinguish between right and wrong. Now, you if you make a connection between... Um, Say you you're having genuine hallucinations, genuine delusions.
Speaker: you You have... Again, we'll We'll talk about this further in just a moment from a biblical perspective, but I'm just talking from a... secular medical and legal perspective. Let's just say.
Speaker: You're genuinely insane. Um, um As Spurgeon said, we're all a little bit insane. And and I agree. So that's that's where we're going in a minute. yeah But let's just say you're in their in their worldview, you're genuinely insane.
Speaker: Um. You may or may not be able to. distinguish between right from wrong, but... if If you're genuinely insane and then you... you You're not able to distinguish right from wrong.
Speaker: Well, now you've got the insanity and the culpability. and And then that could be a legal. A rationale, and again, I'm not an i'm not an attorney, so.
Speaker: Correct me any any attorneys you can write in if I didn't say it exactly right. But what I'm trying to communicate is there is a. there is a medical slash legal threshold. where you can be found.
Speaker: Not guilty. by reason of insanity but even then you're going to be locked up right if not forever you know, for a long, long time. And listen, we're not without compassion. And and I want to come back to this issue as well, not just compassion.
Speaker: but a biblical way to. to deal with with something like that but The point being. They improve their case. Right. I mean, every serial killer.
Speaker: The defense throughout history. That. I know all this. I've tried to use. The plea of insanity. Sure. um And.
Speaker: Again, they're... I mean, like there have been cases where... they were found not guilty by way of insanity obviously that exists in our court system Yeah. But like I said.
Speaker: I don't know that there's a single one that didn't try to use that plea at some point. yeah And again, it did not take away. the culpability of those individuals yeah well yeah and that's the point right i mean are we moral agents before god and but and in our society ah are we to be held accountable and the answer is yes so That's ah ah again, I want to get there without.
Speaker: you know getting Getting too deep down. so Let's just, let's just... Put some other issues on the table that are related to that. Um, And, and Before I...
Speaker: a War. We're going to say some things, I think, ultimately, that even some Christians are going to be like, really? Okay. And that's the muddled thinking I'm talking about. But before I get there.
Speaker: What? Let's just go down this road. Since we're here. Okay. We won't have to wait. Because I haven't... Because listen. I've heard.
Speaker: a couple of, in these coffee shop conversations. that I have and you have. I've heard some folk be very. Adamant, like I am. Listen. I spoke this past Sunday morning. My message was.
Speaker: on something else, but I use this. The Clancy trial is an illustration. Of how. ah we we've become muddled in our understanding of God and sin.
Speaker: and justice. And i I would think that that that I might have raised some eyebrows even in our own congregation. I hope I didn't. But if so if not in our congregation, certainly within our larger congregation.
Speaker: Christian community. and Not that that was my intent or purpose. I'm just trying to tell you you know the truth. So that's what I mean when I say all of that. Okay. Now, having said that.
Speaker: When you go to, and and listen, this is. This is Reformed understanding. It's not just me. Certainly not. Modern. Um,
Speaker: understanding of what we should do in our court systems. It's been muddled by the echo chamber. I like that. You're exactly right. Those comments on ah the echo chamber and everybody. Oh yeah. So are toxic empathy.
Speaker: Um, You know, the Bible... Well... we're going to go to genesis 9 6 eventually okay where it says that Man sheds man's blood. Whoever sheds man's blood.
Speaker: ah By man, his blood shall be shed. And the reason is because man has created the image of God. So when you murder someone, you're attacking. God Himself. Right. You're attacking the image of God in man.
Speaker: and And he even says, if an animal. Uh... sheds man's blood, he will be held accountable too. And, and of course. To this day, if a dog attacks ah a person, say a dog, let's just go to the extreme, kills, but you put down the dog. right and And that's part of the reason. It's not just...
Speaker: oh, well, this dog's proven himself to be pretty mean. We'll kill it. There's a lot of people that wouldn't want to kill it. There's a lot of people that defend that kind of thing. Well, did the child provoke him? You know, that kind of thing. It doesn't matter. So...
Speaker: It doesn't matter. yeah sorry Well, no, I'm just, I'm just thinking as you're saying that. Yeah. So... the Those that would argue that. And then...
Speaker: These that are arguing that. Lindsay Clancy is not. Responsible. you're Right. They're basically equating her with an animal. Hmm. Yeah. yeah well that's right in a sense because if if if someone wants to be able to try to make the argument that you know, well, that animal's just acting on instinct or or whatever. Yeah. And they they shouldn't be responsible. Yeah. Then you're you're equating this woman.
Speaker: with an animal yeah interesting That's something to explore. I think you're onto something. Yeah. Well, oh All I was going to go with that is, though, i'm I'm saying all of that to, I'm not trying to mitigate, but I want folk to understand where I'm coming from.
Speaker: Everything. We're trying to root what we believe and say and want to put into practice in in the scriptures. That's our sole source of authority. It's not church tradition. It's not toxic empathy or or even real empathy.
Speaker: Legitimate empathy. um It's not the cultural mood of our day. It's not the echo chamber. Um, So... There is a distinction in the Scripture between...
Speaker: Deliberate murder and non -deliberate killing. And part of that, you'll see. So anyway, we're rooting in Genesis nine, six, but I do think obviously. Yeah. This is why this discussion has bearing on our last discussion on a couple of future discussions because We're covenantal.
Speaker: But we're not Westminster. Yeah. you know, Confession. Anyway, we talked about that last time. yeah All right. So if you don't know what I mean by that, just.
Speaker: Rewind. Go to the previous episode. Listen to the future. We're not dispensational. Um, So Genesis 9, 6. we We don't believe, we're not theonomists, we'll put it that way. We don't believe old covenant civil law. comes over.
Speaker: lock, stock, and barrel into American civil law. we'll We'll talk about general equity theonomy again, as we've already. but But we do believe. that That. the Bible informs our understanding of what civil law should be. And so we root that in.
Speaker: In Genesis 9, this covenant. creation, and natural law. I want to say natural law. ah As illuminated. ah particularly to Christians, by...
Speaker: Um. Special revelation. you know Those are technical terms. yeah You can't understand natural law. apart from salvation, the way that you should, because you're suppressing the truth. Whole other discussion. Okay.
Speaker: So... But what I'm saying is... I will go to... ah The Old Covenant. and and glean some principles from old covenant civil law.
Speaker: Again, I don't want to... wholesale transfer at Lock, Stock and Barrel. There are theological, exegetical reasons not to do that, but it doesn't mean that it has no bearing. okay So.
Speaker: when When you go to the old covenant. you You murder someone intentionally. You get the death penalty. You're out there chopping wood in the in the forest.
Speaker: And your axe handles. The axe head is loose. Somebody walks by. The axe head flies off accidentally. Kill somebody. You're not, you're not. immediately put to death. You're held to a different standard. It's not that you don't have any culpability. you should have secured your instrument.
Speaker: The axe head, but... It's not the same. the same penalty. And so, again, without getting in into. Two, uh...
Speaker: too deep or too far afield. Um, You know, if someone can be proven and That's a hard standard to meet in my book.
Speaker: But if you can be. proven. To be. insane like you you don't know what's going on you have no concept of reality. ah You're hearing voices. ah And again,
Speaker: Proving that's very difficult. But let's just say you know you prove that somehow. Um, Uh. It's so for me. Yes. I lock them up. In an institution, give them care. That's where the compassion comes in.
Speaker: I think. um We're informed by the scripture on that. um but you keep them away from from harming others. you You can't just... let them go. Right. And and you can't say, well, you know.
Speaker: Not guilty. I guess that's a ah legal term in our. contemporary society, I'd say guilty. But this person. um may may not have been in in complete control of his faculties.
Speaker: And so rather than put them to death, we're going to put them in institution. I mean, it it's, it's, it's prison you're locked up, but we're going to give you medical care. We're not going to let you just roam around anyway. Because you're also a danger to yourself. Yeah. I mean, Lindsay Clancy was, I mean, like I said, she.
Speaker: apparently tried to kill herself. um And so, yeah, we we agree that she needs help. Yeah. Um. But again, and you said it. um As Spurgeon said, there's a little bit of insanity in everybody. and So you've got to be careful. I think actually where he's going.
Speaker: is um this this whole notion of total depravity. Yes. um of Of course. It's insane. to take someone's life. yeah That is not.
Speaker: right thinking that is not rational thinking. Because, again, as we've already talked about in previous episodes. ah Rationality. um and logic, those things come.
Speaker: from a biblical worldview, from that special was relevant revelation. that that you mentioned just a minute ago. um And so. um Again, that's part of what Romans 1.
Speaker: is explaining to us is that, yes, we're all a little insane. Because we've all rejected that truth. Yes. And until our eyes are opened and and and the Spirit does that.
Speaker: and allows us to see the truth and to understand it. um then yes, we're... We're all. ah our Our minds are fallen. And they are marred by sin.
Speaker: yeah and so um we all do things that are contrary to the nature of God. Yeah. Which is by definition insanity. Yeah. um Because God is the only thing that's pure and holy and good and logical. and and all of those things. yeahp um And so anything that we do that's against the nature of God.
Speaker: is insane. um in in a way of in a way of speaking yeah um and so um Again. Yes, the you're not you're not thinking correctly if you if you are. allowing yourself to take another person's life that's right um You're also not thinking correctly if you steal from someone. Right.
Speaker: um If you lie to someone, um whatever you know go down go down whatever list of sins you want to. um That's all a a wrong way of thinking, which means your mind is not functioning correctly. Yeah, that's right. um But that's sin. We call that sin. none Not some...
Speaker: outside force. That is insanity. that. That I. Can't. That I'm not. uh accountable to yeah Yeah.
Speaker: No, I agree a hundred percent. and And yeah, that's the road to go down. um and i was you know And I'm just speaking about... You know that even within conservative theologically oriented Bible believing circles that we run in.
Speaker: That. No. There may be. Very rare instances where you can. you know, Um... Maybe, maybe. not put something to death, someone to death if for murder, but.
Speaker: i Yeah. i may I may mitigate that in some. in some comments here in just a couple minutes but uh but By the way, I also make a distinction, and and this is this is a topic for another discussion. I also make a distinction between our contemporary.
Speaker: judicial system in the United States and the death penalty. versus... weather night. ah Theologically, I believe in the death penalty. yes I do believe in the death penalty theologically. I have grave concerns. over how our current system. Yes.
Speaker: Well, implements it, but that those are two different issues and it's not being wishy -washy. It's trying to think clearly about everything. not I'm not saying that I am thinking. I'm saying I'm trying to. Right. So anyhow.
Speaker: Um, So. Yes, total depravity. You know, we're all sinners. We're born dead in sin. um And because of our sinful nature, and we got it from Adam.
Speaker: We ratify that sinful nature when when we choose to sin. And so as you say, and I think you made a great point. Um, Any sin you commit... And we'll say it this way, and you just said it, we're not thinking rightly. We're not thinking rightly about God.
Speaker: We're not thinking rightly about anything, really. um We're thinking we're autonomous. And so it's idolatry. It's rejecting God. It's the same sin as Adam in the garden. and Right.
Speaker: You know. um It's a wicked heart. It's a heart of rebellion, a heart of idolatry. Which... Sorry, no go go so the the irony Of.
Speaker: You said it's the same sin as Adam in the garden. What was the tree? that they wanted to eat from. Yeah, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And what did they get? Well, they got, they got minds that were then. darkened yeah So...
Speaker: their even charts were darken even Even what they... thought they were going to get. By eating that fruit, they got the opposite. Yes. Yes. And that that's where Lindsay Clancy was. And by the way.
Speaker: I'm saying. Just... Before I interact with that. I think she's guilty yes and she deserves. yes the death penalty that doesn't mean i don't care for her right She needs the gospel. We'll come back to that. Yes. But okay. So having got that on the table, I thought. Hopefully that was clear even before now. But...
Speaker: Um. I forgot what you said, but It was profound. About the garden? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they tried to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. yeah And they got the opposite. Yes. And so in that moment.
Speaker: that there's there's in There's temporary insanity. If you think about it, they And listen, they... They were deceived. Yes. Which you said. Yes. Okay. So maybe I'm deceived by that voice in my head. Mm hmm.
Speaker: is that Does that mean I'm not guilty? Well, you go back to Genesis 1, you're still guilty. They they were guilty. And guess what? they got the death penalty exactly yeah they didn't they didn't die physically immediately but they died spiritually and then ultimately that physically and their sin passed down to their posterity and we're still suffering under this the very first thing that was ever committed Receive the death penalty. yeah and every sin afterwards. Ultimately, as you just said.
Speaker: receives the death penalty. Yeah. Um... Yeah, and and I said... yeah Earlier, you know what I'm going to say may mitigate what I just said about the the whole understanding, but you said it so much better. That's exactly...
Speaker: where I was going in ah in a... in a weaker way. but he do So I'm glad you put it that way. Um, So, yeah, so. that Those are really the issues that that that are on the table, biblically speaking. what does What does God say about...
Speaker: sin and and the sin of murder. um So we got Genesis 9, 6. We got the Old Covenant. We're we all the way back in Genesis 1 now. and And, you know, what happened to Adam?
Speaker: And so. Just because you you feel. that you're depressed or you feel these children are too much of a burden or you.
Speaker: Feel you can't take anymore. Or you you know even if you've... Feel there's a voice and in in your head. ah is Is it anyway? Um,
Speaker: You're still. a moral agent. You still have culpability. You still have responsibility, accountability. That's the word. um And so. We just need to put those things on on on the table.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's part of the larger discussion. um I think also... We've already said... you know One of the things that we Christians talk about a lot is the sanctity of life.
Speaker: Yeah. In the sanctity of human in life. Well, the the the reason... ah the sanctity of life is because God says thou shalt not murder. That's one reason. But also back to Genesis 9. Human beings are created in the image of God. Mm hmm.
Speaker: And so it's it's not only an issue of the sanctity of life, but justice. Hmm. And. And this is part of what I was saying Sunday morning. you know You've got the issue of justice.
Speaker: Because you're talking about sin against God. I... Can we just say there's people? i Even Christians. We need to meditate on these things because I'm not sure that we have a full appreciation, myself included.
Speaker: of just how... Sinful sin is. One of the Puritans put it, the exceeding sinfulness of sin. And I don't think he got it either. Right. Even though he got it more than I.
Speaker: and So. Is it? Salut. Justice. God's holiness, God's righteousness. We're not like God. Right. We're... We're sinners. Ha!
Speaker: And we're creatures. He is literally holy mean mean you know Holy. You know what holy means. It means set apart. It means unique. Other. Other. He's other.
Speaker: And.
Speaker: He... We know. You know as well as I when... Let's just say. A judge, he just lets a pedophile go scot -free. We would say he's an unjust judge. yes So we have a sense of justice. even unbelievers have a sense of justice. why Because they're creating the image of God. They're suppressing the truth in so many ways, but generally speaking, most people still have a sense of justice. It comes from God.
Speaker: Well, how much more? An infinitely holy God. um So yeah, justice because of... God himself and his holiness and his standard of justice and righteousness.
Speaker: Justice because... You've killed a human being. three human beings who are creating the image of God. What about... What about how those children felt, their mother strangling them? I don't even want to imagine what they went through. Right.
Speaker: And what about, because one of them, I think, was like five years old. Um, And. As a five -year -old, how do you look at your mother? oh she's She's the one person in your life.
Speaker: That is supposed to be protecting you. yeah And caring for you. yeah And you're looking up at her as she's. Mmm. choking the life out of you Yeah, I cannot imagine.
Speaker: And, and, and as you're alluding to, where is the, where's the empathy? for those children. yeah um and what they went through. Yeah. How horrific.
Speaker: were their last moments on this earth yeah Yeah. and and And there's a reason for that. you know in the echo chamber which which i want to get to but i don't want to rush over that.
Speaker: Or rush over. um Just... Just the idea of... you know, this whole insanity defense. um yeah what about justice for those children so i'll leave it there i don't i don't
Speaker: there's There's got to be. There's got to be an equal standard of accountability. Um, you know What? We shouldn't make a distinction between...
Speaker: The guy walking down the street. murders the the convenience store owner to grab a buy a box of cigarettes or whatever. you know we say yeah that guy's guilty of murder put him in jail he just wanted the cigarettes Well, this woman just wanted...
Speaker: She just didn't want these children bugging her anymore. yeah Couldn't I say that the that the guy on the street had a chemical dependency on nicotine? Right. And that's what made him do it? Right. I mean, seriously. Yeah. Why? why You know.
Speaker: even Most. rational thinking people. Would not allow that to be. an excuse to get this guy off. Right. uh for murder right um And so.
Speaker: Again. Why? there's got to be a ah a consistent standard. Think about somebody who's driving drunk. And let's just say he's drunk out of his mind. He's so drunk, he doesn't even know he's in the car now.
Speaker: And he runs over a family on the sidewalk, kills them. Is he going to go? ah Get off. ah ah Not guilty by reason of insanity or by reason of being out of his mind? No, we're just going to send him to some AA meetings. Yeah. that's it yeah No, he's going to get the. the death penalty if if if that state allows it. And and and he should.
Speaker: Because it's not the alcohol that makes... He. He's responsible. Well, there's also the fact in that situation he made the conscious decision to start drinking. Yes, yes, yes. And to not control himself. Yeah. And to drink to a point to where.
Speaker: he was no longer in charge of his faculty. That's right. So you got that. and then also which is similar to doing research on how to strangle someone There you go. Yeah. Thanks.
Speaker: And then. She gets more clear as we talk. Hmm. But. which is the value of conversation actually i would even argue though That. the guy sitting in the bar.
Speaker: may not have obviously may not have intended. Certainly probably didn't intend. to go and and kill a family right in their SUV. Yeah. So...
Speaker: You know. He may not have started with intent. But he still. is culpable for his irresponsible actions that led him to the point to where he can no longer control himself. try This woman.
Speaker: Had intent. Yeah. He was researching how to do it. Yeah. That's right. So that's, I mean. To me, that's even more. yeah And I, and I, and I agree with you, the drunk driver.
Speaker: who kills somebody. Because he's driving behind the wheel intoxicated. should receive the absolute maximum penalty that whatever state he's in can allow, yeah whether that's death and death penalty, life in prison, whatever.
Speaker: he should suffer that yeah because of what he did yeah Even though. I think you could. say with fair amount of certainty that the vast majority of drunk drivers who have killed someone did not have an intent to go drive and kill someone exactly Oh yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. But this woman had intent. Yeah. and And it's tragic that that um not only that somebody's killed, but say this driver who didn't have that intent.
Speaker: let's Let's say he's he's a pretty good guy, civilly speaking. but yet he still going to be put away for life or, or. on death row, depending upon where he is and all the other circumstances.
Speaker: tragic, but they still hold them accountable. And here's the thing. We do biblical counseling. That's one of the things that we do at our church. Not not mixing in psychology, biblical counseling, what used to be called euthetic counseling.
Speaker: Um, I've sat across the table from people. Who? who've um experienced ah uh drunken drunkenness they're they're they're you know, trying to be Put off the sin of drunkenness.
Speaker: And they'll say, Um. You know from time to time and and And they're. you know, you can do better and then you can fall blah blah blah well they'll say from time to time Well, yeah, I was just gonna have a couple of drinks, but I had another and another And I didn't realize how much I had. and I got so drunk.
Speaker: i I didn't even know what I was doing and I was told I did this. And then they'll say that that's how you act. I can't believe I did it. And I feel so terrible. Well, these are people under conviction, but the point I'm making is.
Speaker: In the moment. It seemed like the thing to do, whatever they did. yeah Let's just say they. I don't know. proposition someone, embarrass their wife or whatever. well But the next day they feel terrible about it. They know they do they did wrong. But why did they start doing it in the first place? Why did the hypothetical guy we're talking about in the bar that then gets in his car and goes and kills someone?
Speaker: Why, why may they have. started drinking. mm -hmm Well... Self -medication, right? Yeah. Maybe they have, maybe this, maybe this hypothetical guy got fired today.
Speaker: maybe he Maybe his wife left him. Maybe, you know. Maybe his life is just. been completely upended. yeah and And all he knows to do is he's going to go self -medicate. Yeah. With a bottle. Yeah.
Speaker: And. Then. the the side effects of that. medication. Yep. now lead him to a place to where he's going to do something really stupid yes That's also going to cost someone their life. yes Well... How is that any different?
Speaker: Than what this woman has done. You nailed it Yeah. i was met She was medicating herself, right? That's right. Because she Was dealing with.
Speaker: depressive thoughts and and sadness and yeah all these things. And. what happens. So you got. So mixed up into that medication. Yeah That, yeah, maybe it did chemically alter her to the point to where.
Speaker: she would but again that does not it doesn't excuse the drunk driver no They can't excuse her. No. um just Allegorically. Um, When... ah As you know.
Speaker: Those people out here. May know or may not know, but. I have twin daughters. Yeah. um when they were born. They were born early. Yep. ah They had to go to the NICU for a few weeks. um it was a tough time for us it was a stressful time for us it was scary time for us Yeah. um And, uh...
Speaker: We had a... Leave our babies at the hospital and come home without them. Yeah, which was the weirdest thing ever um And my wife. You know, was up there every single day, um spending as much time as she could.
Speaker: It also... happened to be when swine flu Was a big thing. All right. So that was like. That was like one of the big things before COVID happened, right? But it was there was a big outbreak locally.
Speaker: And they put all of these type of restrictions. It wasn't nearly what happened with COVID, but they put all of these restrictions at the hospital yeah um to where if anyone was having flu -like symptoms.
Speaker: They made you mask up. You couldn't visit. you know, intensive care units like the NICU. Mm hmm. And they had a restriction.
Speaker: on visiting Um, who could visit in the NICU. uh during this time yeah and so we were only allowed ah myself and my wife, and then we could each have one other person.
Speaker: Which happened to be both of our mothers. Mm -hmm. Lo and behold. My mother -in -law my mother, and I. I'll get sick. Uh oh. um They both tested positive for flu. I never tested positive for flu, but I had yeah respiratory illness type symptoms. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was not allowed to go. yeah My mom was not allowed to go. My mother -in -law was not allowed to go.
Speaker: They also would not let us. substitute a different person on that list. So now my wife. is dealing with Her two babies being tiny and small and having tubes in them. and waiting for potential operations and just being scared that one of your children out to and Yeah, heart issues, hard one of them. yeah um And. Not only that, now she's in the hospital.
Speaker: by herself. I can't be there. yeah No other support person can be there. She's sitting there in the NICU looking at both of them and their little isolettes can't even hold them Because they can't maintain their body temperature. Right.
Speaker: She's weeping. Of course. but that's That's a depressing situation to be in, right? Yeah. We can use that word. Yeah. She was sad. Of course. And a social worker from the hospital comes by.
Speaker: notices her sitting there crying and wants to talk to her about Postpartum depression. yeah Do you think you're experiencing postpartum depression? And praise the Lord, my wife's answer was, no, I'm just sad. Yeah. I'm sad because of the situation I'm in, but I'm not.
Speaker: depressed right to the point of where you know i feel like there's no hope or you know right that I need something or whatever. Right. And.
Speaker: you know. Cheat. She dealt with it. biblically yeah you know yeah And. But. Again, that was even, this was 16 years ago. You know, there was even at that time a push.
Speaker: To say, okay, well, I think think you might be. Oh, yeah. Clinically depressed. Of course. Of course. And we might need to get you some medication. Oh, yeah. And again. We've we'd already talked about it some, but more and more.
Speaker: You see it, you know. you if you If you watch a video on YouTube and the ads pop up beforehand. 75 % of those ads are going to be about some type of medication. yeah yeah And most of them are for some type of.
Speaker: Mental. issue. Yeah. um and there's there's specific ones for postpartum depression that are advertised And again, ironically, as we've already mentioned. And we were going to get into it a little bit but we may run out of time but Um. That. Even in those commercials.
Speaker: You know, you always get the. The real. Quickly spoken. list of potential side effects at the end of the commercial. Yeah, now you do. And. and it always talks about suicidal thoughts yeah And, and, and those types of things. And so again,
Speaker: This medication that we're saying is going to help you with your postpartum depression. but it also might make you want to kill yourself or do harm to others yeah And so. How is that? How is that helping? Yeah.
Speaker: um And so again, yeah, I lay some blame at the feet of the medication. Sure. But again... That does not. Just like it doesn't excuse the drunk driver. because We've all been told.
Speaker: Since... As as long young as we can remember, right drinking and driving is bad. yeah yeah Don't drink. it then you know Don't get drunk. It it impairs your faculties, and and you'll do things you can't even remember. That's right.
Speaker: And so. doing those things. um under the influence does not. change my responsibility for the thing I just did. Correct.
Speaker: Yeah, and and like you say, I think... Um, more and more people You know, because someone might want to say, well, the doctor's prescribed it. Well. Again, you're responsible for your own health choices. And ah now more than ever, I think a lot of people are realizing that.
Speaker: Um, but yeah i had Sorry. No, just another side note. Um, um, someone that I know, uh, recently. is having some health issues and had been diagnosed.
Speaker: And I think this is legit with low vitamin D. Mm -hmm. um And was prescribed. um Some vitamin D. Hmm? um But the dosage that they prescribed for them was super high.
Speaker: um and they in one pill it's like a week's worth okay of what you would need in one pill yeah and they took it and They were having all kinds of like. hot flashes heart was racing blood pressure spiking like wow scary yeah for sure for sure and this person after the effects kind of wore off after a couple of hours was like i'm not doing that amen And they have the autonomy to do that. yeah You know, to say, okay, maybe I do need to.
Speaker: Find another way to get this vitamin D in, but not. Not what this doctor described. it's not It's not good for me. yeah And we do need to take a little more autonomy.
Speaker: about our health care that's right um because again that's a whole nother issue, but. ah the the healthcare care is an industry and, and it is out to make money. Yeah. And so a lot of the things that are prescribed.
Speaker: Are not prescribed with the patient's best interest at heart. No. Yeah, and and a lot of the things, and especially with... We're way far afield, but yeah yeah but but during during during COVID, it is a fact. that hospitals did certain things.
Speaker: And they got more money to... if this happened and more money if this and more money if that. So I'll leave that there for now. Yeah. And I'm not saying that doctors can't be trusted. You know, you shouldn't trust your your doctor. You shouldn't go to the doctor. No.
Speaker: I have a doctor. Yeah. But and I inform myself. Right. Exactly. Exactly. and um Yeah. and Again, if the doctor prescribes something. and you either you're not ah if you're unsure about it or If you've tried it. And you're like, I don't know that this is good for me.
Speaker: you know, Just because the doctor wrote it on a pad doesn't mean right that's the law and you've got to take it. That's right. That's right. Yep. So yeah. i'm i'm with I went to the hospital not long ago, so we believe in that. and Well, but I did also make some, some moan decisions, right? Yeah. Anyway. And the other thing I want to say real quick, because man, we haven't even touched on some of these. Heh. Theological worldview. Can we just do an extended broadcast? Is that okay? Keep going.
Speaker: Um, Some people like the long form. So yeah if if not, they can break it up into two parts on their own. We're not going to go joe Joe Rogan. No, no, no, no, no. Just just a few more minutes. but um yeah yeah You know...
Speaker: there There are some women who... yeah you know, the postpartum thing, they can experience ah their their hormones going crazy or whatever. but that's still no excuse you can experience stuff but sure that's no excuse and you just need to learn to deal with that biblically.
Speaker: And again, you say, well, what about all those non -Christians out there? Well, that's not an excuse. And. and And I'm not being I'm not. like I don't lack compassion. Right. But I can't mitigate God's standard. I can't mitigate. Is that the right word? I can't.
Speaker: You know, set that aside. Yeah. Or, you know. well will Okay, so you can't do that. Mm -hmm. So... Um, in fact that's the whole point that if you're not a christian if you're not born again you're held accountable for every single In everything you do, think, say. Romans 1 tells us you are without excuse. Without a excuse. That's a simple way to put it. yeah um Yeah.
Speaker: I forgot what I was going to say. Go ahead. No, no. Oh, okay. Well, that's all right. Um. I just think we reject that whole. um defense that holy so oh i remember what i was gonna say um When you said that... ah you know we just got to learn how to deal with that biblically yeah that's not dismissive
Speaker: to say that right because i think a lot of times we can i don't want to dismiss it yes and maybe the way i said it we can get accused of saying oh well you just need to pray about that Or or you just need to read go read a couple songs.
Speaker: you know take two psalms and call me in the morning right you know we're not we're not saying that these aren't real things. that they are not gripping. to people. That. they are not difficult to deal with. yeah It can be very difficult.
Speaker: It's a deal. with some of these things and and and the thinking. that that they bring about. It's it's hard. We're not saying that it's easy. Correct. We are saying it's simple. There's a difference between simple and easy.
Speaker: Right. And and sometimes it takes a lot of work and it takes time. Yes. And and and we 100 percent. agree with that and believe in that.
Speaker: Um, We're just saying that the answer is not found in a pill bottle. the The answer is found in God's word yeah and in knowing it and in trusting it.
Speaker: and And in knowing him more. and and that is a And that is a process. Yeah, that's right. um But. Again. There's hope in that. There's not hope in the pill bottle. no The pill bottle can only promise at best.
Speaker: that it will mitigate. To use that word, it will mitigate. those bad feelings that you're dealing with i do mitigate those symptoms you know um If...
Speaker: If I have a fever. And I take Tylenol. Tylenol doesn't cure the fever. Right. it it can mitigate that symptom. Hmm. of the fever. The fever may break. But the fever is really what? It's a sign.
Speaker: of a virus or something else that's going on. Yeah, it doesn't cure the disease. The Tylenol is not going to touch that virus, right? That's right. And so it can mitigate it. yeah And a lot of these...
Speaker: ah medications that are that are prescribed. they're They're nothing more. than the psychiatrist's version of a Tylenol. Yeah. they can They can numb the pain. Yeah. for a time. Yeah. But they cannot.
Speaker: Fix the issue. And in. If if. If you buy into that lie. that that this medicine is going to help you with your issue. Hmm. it there's no hope in that because because now all you're going to do is you're going to have a lifetime of taking pills yeah that's right and it's not ever going to fix the problem Mm -mm um you may be able to you know
Speaker: endure it a little bit at times while you're on the medication when the medication wears off It's going to get worse again. Or if you miss a pill that day or whatever, you know. um But what we believe is that the gospel yeah offers real hope to people that there can actually be victory.
Speaker: over these issues and these things and again it's not easy it's something that's going to take work and it's going to take time a lot of times yeah I mean... the lord The Lord can save someone and change someone in an instant.
Speaker: But. Also, sometimes it takes time. for us to to deal with certain issues. Yes. and and And we 100 % believe that, but we believe.
Speaker: that the gospel is the only thing, the word of God is the only thing. That can give us true and lasting. victory over the things that plague us. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And the Bible's honest about that.
Speaker: not Not just the victory part, but the struggle part. Yes. ah Because sanctification is a process. right And dealing with certain issues is a battle. It's a spiritual battle. That's why the the Bible uses that terminology, the warfare, the battle that we're in.
Speaker: Um, Like you say, it's not easy. A lot of things are not easy. How many times does the Bible say the phrase, Fear not. Yeah. And persevere. yeah and that you may be able to endure it as you said a moment ago right it says fear not because we have fear yeah we deal with it that's right and we have to be reminded over and over again that's right because it is something um That.
Speaker: you know like i said the pill bottle you're gonna have to take that pill bottle your whole life Well, we need to... our whole lives be filling our minds with the word of god but the the difference is is that It actually gives us hope. yes And it can actually give us...
Speaker: a lasting victory. And the pill bottle can do nothing but temporarily mitigate some symptoms for for a time. That's exactly right. Yeah, so you're right. to ah Man, well said. I was not trying to be dismissive. so Perfect, perfect. um we've We've already talked a little bit about the whole ah I'm going down my little list. just trying ahead We've already talked about the the big pharma, psychology.
Speaker: ah industry, you know. The, um... yeah I think we touched on this, and it's part of where you were just coming from, the medicalization of sin. these are you know, sin issues.
Speaker: Um, like Like your wife. uh, let's just call it depression, you know, in that, in that knee cue. Okay. Well, in her in her case... I don't even know.
Speaker: If I'd call it sin. I would call it um a spiritual battle. Because... um She's grieving for her baby. She's grieving that she has to face this alone.
Speaker: You know all kinds of things But the the victory, as you said. is in focusing on the grace and the goodness of God, the providence of God. and God's going to see me through.
Speaker: So... In that instance, I That's not sin. That's just a normal. You know. Jesus wept right right yeah over ah Lazarus' death. and and how the sisters felt about it.
Speaker: So that's legit. Paul says, um We don't. Grieve. like those who have no hope, but we do grieve. Right. But like you said, the difference is we have hope. All right. So not. Ahem.
Speaker: I'm not suggesting that... That. you know the hormonal imbalance automatically or the situational dynamic can't be sad Yeah, yeah Christians can't be sad.
Speaker: I'm not suggesting that all of that is sin. I am suggesting that sometimes. It's sin because you're thinking wrongly. Maybe you're... Maybe you're depressed because you, you think you're worth.
Speaker: a million dollars a year. and And your company says you're worth 85 ,000 a year. Hmm. I'm just pulling that out of the air. And, and, you know, you're depressed about that. Well, God wants you to have ah a proper assessment of you. That's probably a terrible.
Speaker: Not an effective illustration, but... um Anyway, if if you are shirking your responsibilities... You're not trusting in the Lord. You're not looking to him.
Speaker: you know You're not getting out of bed every day. Those are sin issues. Yeah. we Christians can be sad. yeah And as we said, we can. um we can be grieved about our circumstances, whatever they may be.
Speaker: Mm hmm. But. When we. are... Not. trusting in the Lord. In those circumstances. When we are.
Speaker: essentially saying to ourselves, that those circumstances are more powerful. than the Lord himself right and the hope that we have in Christ. then that's sin. Yeah. Right. we're Because now we're saying something about God that's not true. Yeah.
Speaker: um But it's not, it's not. a sin to be grieved about our circumstances yeah that's right um Good. Jesus. Wept over the city of Jerusalem. yeah that was about to be destroyed.
Speaker: Yeah. was all part of his good and perfect plan. But he still wept over it. yeah That's right. um And so just as another example. That's right. um So, yeah, we're not saying that. that Christians don't have emotions.
Speaker: Yeah. And that they're not valid. Right. But. We are saying that those things can't be what dictate our lives exactly and how we live and and how we react.
Speaker: to the circumstances around us. um Because our emotions are fleeting and changing at all at all times. um I can be. Um... Completely happy one minute and then some. something can happen and then i'm sad yeah um and my My happiness didn't dictate how I should live my life. My sadness can't dictate how I should live my life.
Speaker: um the The Lord does. And so when we put those emotions. above the lord that's when it becomes sin yeah that's right That's right. Absolutely. All right, real quick, can we move on then to some of these larger cultural...
Speaker: worldview issues. You almost want to spend a whole hour on this, but we'll just wait into it. And if we need to, we will, but yeah. We'll just... We'll just... Skate. For now. one One of the things is some...
Speaker: we We've used this term in in the past, but... You know, we Worldview speaking, culture speaking, erosion of that Christian worldview. abortion. We now live in a culture of death.
Speaker: euthanasia once the old people are no longer useful we'll kill them once babies uh in the womb or inconvenient. We'll kill him. yeah I mean, I'm just being blunt. I'm being graphic. I'm not trying to be graphic or provocative. I'm just saying.
Speaker: Um. And so it's really not a, uh, I think I even made this point. sunday but it's not a A giant leap. It's just a small step. Yes. You know, if you're willing to kill a baby in your womb, why would you not be willing to kill?
Speaker: the baby outside of your womb or a three -year -old if if all of a sudden it's just it he he or she's just inconvenient yeah and and like i said we can discuss the the issue of abortion um on a whole nother episode yeah i think we could do it and definitely do an entire episode yeah yeah plus um on that issue as well but um you're 100 right and that's an argument that um those who stand up for life.
Speaker: who stand up for the pre -born, have been saying for years. yeah um is, you know, what what is the leap? for me to say, okay, this baby is 20 weeks in the womb.
Speaker: Um... And. Maybe, maybe the mom's depressed then yeah um or, or whatever, or. you know financially can't handle it or or just not ready or whatever.
Speaker: Um, that If we say it's okay for that mom. to kill that baby in the womb. then then What is the difference then in saying that? now that the child is born.
Speaker: and they're an inconvenience or. they're causing me stress or they're causing me depression. or whatever it may be. that I can kill them too. And and that argument's been made for years. yeah off into an eye roll.
Speaker: You know, or or or just, you know, waving that off. Well, guess what? It happened. right right um and and it's not the first time and it sadly will not be the last right yeah um But yes, it's the same.
Speaker: mindset of thinking. That and and you alluded to it at the at the beginning Um, That's. Children. are. viewed in our society largely.
Speaker: As an inconvenience. Yep. As a burden. Yeah. um Now, is being a parent hard? We're both parents. Yes, sure we can agree to that. Yeah. um it but Um,
Speaker: is it ah Is it a... burden that needs to be gotten rid of. um No. is Those children are are lives yeah that are precious. They're created in the image of God. yeah Gifts from the Lord. They're gifts from the Lord. um and And guess what? God's gifts sometimes take hard work to appreciate. Yeah. And so, yes, parenting can be hard.
Speaker: But there's a reason for that. yeah There's a sanctification that's taking place in you and in your kid. um when you have those hard moments of parenting yeah um And. Yeah. that this this whole notion.
Speaker: that Children aren't viewed as people. They're not viewed as humans. They're viewed as... another circumstance, another difficulty that I have to deal with. yeah And if my difficulties are just too bad, then I've just got to get rid of these. Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Speaker: And so whether that is an. Unborn child in the womb. Mm hmm. Or whether that's my five -year -old and... However old the other two were, I don't even know.
Speaker: Sadly, but yeah. You know. i think it's five three and two if i'm not mistaken yeah i don't know I mean, close. Five years old. Yeah. and and people are wanting to excuse that because Because it was it was just making her life so hard. Yeah.
Speaker: And so that is. That is supposed to be a justification. for ending. their life. Right. If you had a biblical worldview, you're going to You're going to be able to navigate these things a lot easier. You're going to be able to say, okay.
Speaker: Wow. Right now, okay. My finances. and and these children. Put that together. Um, You know, maybe my husband left me, whatever.
Speaker: That's really, really hard. and We have compassion. Jesus had compassion. We can weep over that. And we can enter into your. uh grief But we're going to say to you.
Speaker: what you said there's hope in christ but where i'm going is just to to put it in an academic way. Um, If you have that biblical worldview, you realize. Okay, well, if children are a gift from the Lord, which they are, okay, God's given me a gift. It doesn't feel like it.
Speaker: Maybe you're in that sit situation. you felt like they were gifts when your kids were born. I felt like they were gifts they were by the grace of God. Because we were already had... ah yeah We were already born again. Mm -hmm.
Speaker: But. um We're saying children are a gift from the Lord. Okay, if that's true, then... what would that cause me to do? What it's going to cause me to. Uh, work through. Ma...
Speaker: ah feelings of ah They're just a burden. I need to repent of those feelings. and and of course, believers. we We need to preach to ourselves. Unbelievers need the gospel, which we're we're coming to in just a moment. We want to say something particular about that, and you can say anything you want on the way.
Speaker: Um. So anyway, to tie a bow on that... Um, Also, those Those children. This is one of the things that we're arguing for. ah when when we're arguing against abortion.
Speaker: So the same thing holds true. For those. Pre -born children. as those post -born or already born children. Right. Those children deserve equal protection under the law. Mm hmm. And.
Speaker: Right now, if you're trying to say Lindsey Clancy's not responsible, those kids are not getting equal protection. So... Um, Yeah, because one of the arguments that we always make on the Pro -life side. to use that term.
Speaker: um is when when does a person become a person um And, you know, those those who argue for abortion. Um, would at at the very least the majority of them would argue that it's not until they're born right But.
Speaker: Now... When a situation like this, where she's being defended by so many people. Whether or not these people are are openly willing to say it or not, they're saying that this person is not. become a person at five years old yet. yeah So now when seriously, the question is. When does a person become a person? yeah We believe that it's the moment that they're created. yeah um But.
Speaker: i don't I don't know. where the answer ends up being. And. this line of thinking. In their line of thinking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know either.
Speaker: Um, Because you can just keep pushing that boundary. That's right. And again, like we said. ah euthanasia. You know, the other end of life. Yeah. um now Now we're saying that if you get to a point to where you're too much of a burden because you're too old and sick. Right.
Speaker: that we can get rid of you yeah you've now yeah you're no longer a person right well if you've lost burden on society if you've got dementia you're no longer a person there have been academic arguments made you can kill a child up to five years of age because they don't They don't have... um moral agency or whatever. I mean, it's just insane. Frontal cortex hasn't finished developing. yeah Yeah. Yeah. And even these arguments are insane. But.
Speaker: there's There's still arguments that are evil. and arguments that need to be. uh destroyed right Take every thought captive. Um, and and You said the arguments are insane, so the insane people are trying to tell us what insanity is. Right, right.
Speaker: Yeah. Um, The other thing I'll throw on the table, and I'm just kind of rapid fire now. I mean, maybe maybe whole episodes we can dedicate to all of these. But not only the culture of death. ah But, you know, feminism.
Speaker: the And this ties into the toxic empathy because. Women are more emotional than men. Not that men can't be emotional. sure and And I'm not criticizing women. But, uh... My wife is... is She's taking care of my sister who's got some major health issues right now. She just jumped in with both hands.
Speaker: Um, Got her up here, moved in with us. that that's That's her. she's created to be a nurturer and and um a servant like that.
Speaker: And and i'm I'm doing the best I can. um But God's created me in a different role. I'm the one who goes out. and You know. kills the bear, so to speak. But. um But, uh... Men and women are different, so I'm not...
Speaker: ah criticizing that. Um. But women... you know, we're told in the scriptures. They have to be careful not to be ruled by their feelings and emotions. We all do. We all do. Right.
Speaker: But I'm just saying it's a little easier for women. And so that's where the the whole... ah echo chamber defending Lindsey Clancy comes from.
Speaker: And I do think that you see it more and more because. Um, feminism has infiltrated our culture and thinking in far more ways than than we've ever realized. and i'm not Talking about you know making women.
Speaker: you know, our slaves or anything like that. right right I'm just saying we need to recognize that men and women by God are designed to be different. We're designed to have different roles. And we need to embrace that. It's good. and And a lot of women are finding out as they age.
Speaker: that what they were told was the good life was actually not the case. right And. um Anyway, not to go so far down that road, but it's just like.
Speaker: We'll bend over backwards to... Not offend women. and And, of course, if you... if you Even to talk like we're talking now. yeah You know, we run the risk of our culture calling us misogynistic. Sure.
Speaker: And it's like, you know, we've got to get to a point where Well, we're not misogynist. We love, I love my wife. i'll do i'll I'll die for my wife. I'll lay my life down daily for my wife.
Speaker: um Except when I'm being selfish and then. I repent because I'm guilty of that insanity. and um but But the point being. Um, I'm not being misogynistic, so I'm not worried if if you want to call me that fine.
Speaker: um' i'm not going to worry about it i'd i'd love to have a dialogue with you because i care about You believing the the Bible and... yeah um We believe that women should be treasured and honored. Absolutely. Yeah. But. um Amen.
Speaker: But we' we we've even in the church, we've come to... I guess um we're willing to. You know. I don't know. You could say it in a lot of ways, but we we tiptoe around.
Speaker: Some of these issues and the whole mail headship and. You know, wife, ce submit to your husband. We kind of tiptoe around that. we We don't need to. we're not We're not talking about being oppressors. We're talking about a... a a biblically ordered home, and a man is responsible.
Speaker: of for his home. And. um and Anyway. i I don't want to get too far afield, but. It's almost like if they turn on the tears, well, then we're paralyzed. And an we can't be.
Speaker: I remember years and years ago, this is probably. Almost 30 years ago. I was teaching. Well. Yeah, teaching. But I had about 30 college students and we'd meet once a week, just just like a little Bible study outreach. I didn't start it, i but I became part of it.
Speaker: And. um it We have a Q and &A time, and somebody asked about the doctrine of election. and that's really controversial in our circles back then or certain circles i should say not our circles But, um.
Speaker: Less so now, not not so much now, but anyway. I remember this young lady when I started explaining what the scripture said. I kid you not, she started wailing and crying and she literally fell on the floor And I was thinking to myself.
Speaker: Should I just stop? ah Because... I don't want to hurt this young woman. But on the other hand... i'm I'm trying to teach what the Word says, and I'm not embarrassed about the Word. and And I'm not being ugly about it. I'm just explaining what the scripture says.
Speaker: Um, And so I finished. I didn't. I didn't stop. and But I was tempted to, you know, because of her reaction.
Speaker: And I guess what I'm trying to say now is. I think it did the right thing. and ah And I'm trying to urge others. you know That's just one illustration. I just think our whole...
Speaker: Culture. You know, when when the women fall down and start wailing, and I'm talking about these women defending. Lindsey Clancy on social media.
Speaker: Just like... um There were some folk on the jury who said, well, they weren't going to vote. not guilty until they felt pressured.
Speaker: by the other women on on the jury. Yeah. And then you had the one holdout and if it weren't for him, we'd be having a different conversation. Well, it'd be the same conversation issue -wise. yeah a different result in the trial. But anyway, I'm rambling. I'm just saying.
Speaker: We can't let... feelings and emotion. and and cultural, the cultural zeitgeist. ah you know, opinions. And you alluded to this earlier.
Speaker: um can't We can't let all of that dictate. That's not the arbiter of truth. The arbiter of truth is the Word of God. We're not without compassion. We're not dismissive. We got to be very careful. The Bible does say.
Speaker: ah be Be ready to give a defense for the hope that lies within you. Um, Talk to those. I can quote the verse, but it's not coming to me. that The servant of the Lord must not strive.
Speaker: but he must be gentle. But he goes on to say that he may refute. Hmm. the gainsayers. So speak the truth in love. So there's gotta be that love. yeah but it know it doesn't say stop speaking the truth he says speak the truth in love sometimes speaking it in love means A stern rebuke.
Speaker: Sometimes it means speaking with great compassion because I recognize that someone's hurting, but nevertheless, I'm telling them. This is what's going to help you. That's what we do in in in counseling. Sometimes people don't want to hear it.
Speaker: But this is what's going to help you and because it's truth. so ah we'll We'll talk more about feminism in a time unless you want to. Well, yeah, and the the only other thing I was going to say is... um The other.
Speaker: Influence of feminism on this because again, you know Initially, when... when the the term feminism arose, you know, it was. Ostensibly, it was all about equality.
Speaker: for women right that was that was the big fight Um... And. ah what What's interesting now is that in a situation like this. Um,
Speaker: those who would have at one time said that there needs to be a equality for women. There's not equal. Uh... responsibility and accountability for women. um I do think that in, in the modern feminist mindset that Uh...
Speaker: women do get more of a free pass. On, uh... their behaviors yeah and and things um because they're women yeah um For example, the fact in this case.
Speaker: That, um... And I don't know if her defense team necessarily was trying to present this. In the courtroom, because, again, I haven't read all the notes and and all of that. But I definitely know that I've heard.
Speaker: Lots of. defenders of her. in the echo chambers. have said that, um well, it's gotta to be it's got to be the husband's fault. even Even if they're not trying to say that he physically killed the children.
Speaker: That the fact that she killed them has got to lay at the feet of the husband because he wasn't supporting her enough right he wasn't you know, helping her enough he wasn't being there and he wasn't taking care of things in the house enough And.
Speaker: from the little bit that I have read or heard. Um, Actually... He had. maybe gone a little out of his way. He he was working from home.
Speaker: um instead of the office so that he could be At home more with her and with the kids. um Again. when when she did the deed.
Speaker: He was running an errand for her. yeah you know he was helping her out with something that she said she needed yeah um And so. Now, am I saying that. He was the perfect husband and never did anything wrong? No, I don't know that. Yeah, I don't know. But the automatic assumption that...
Speaker: um Oh, well that's awful that those kids died. It must have had something to do with the man. Yeah. That's the the automatic where we jump to. Instead of saying, well, no, this woman.
Speaker: Who wants equal rights should have equal responsibility for her actions, just like the man yeah should have. Yeah. Because i I guarantee you, if the gender roles were reversed.
Speaker: And this man had strangled his three children. i don't think there would have been this. mob of people outside the courtroom. cheering for him, though.
Speaker: and and and chanting justice for him. in the sense of He's not responsible. right um I don't think that would take place at all. I don't think it would either. And so again. And he shouldn't know. He shouldn't.
Speaker: He shouldn't. if if If the father had done this. Yeah. I would say the exact same thing yeah about what he deserves. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Well... A hundred percent. I can't sit better. Um,
Speaker: Uh... There's some theological issues. I don't mind actually taking a whole other broadcast on on the theological issues. yeah Just because. I don't want to shortchange them. Is that okay? Yeah. yeah We have others.
Speaker: and that ah that we we want to put on the table, but maybe maybe we can close. At least with this. Because you... What you just said. Makes a nice little segue to it.
Speaker: If you... Let her off the hook. Or if you were to let him off the hook, were the tables turned? Were he the one that strangled the children? Um. You just said...
Speaker: I would say he needs to to get what he deserves. Two, right? Okay. Agreed. That is just the point that... that. No matter what our sin. But in this case too, we deserve death.
Speaker: and We did touch on that at the top of the broadcast.
Speaker: The point I want to make, and you can elaborate if you like. Is that. If we let her off the hook and say, well, not guilty. You literally rob her of the gospel. Absolutely.
Speaker: And the only thing that is going to save her. is the gospel. and And while on the one hand... We'll make a distinction. Let's just say.
Speaker: Well, let me just ask you this, because I know what you'll say. Let's just say if you and I, if you were given an opportunity to preach the gospel to her. next week. Would you do that? Absolutely. Absolutely. Would you be praying that she be saved? 100%. 100%.
Speaker: Would you? Um, Want to see her in heaven? Yes. Absolutely. But would that erase the earthly consequences? Of her sin, no. It wouldn't.
Speaker: but she would have that eternal hope. she And by hope, in the biblical hope is not, hey, we hope we go to heaven. No, no. Hope? ah is is this bright, shining certainty.
Speaker: that that we're going to see God face to face in the Lord Jesus Christ. Because God does not lie. And he says, if you trust in me. You know, you see your sin, you see...
Speaker: Christ is ah the Savior, atoning for your sin on the cross. and you believe in him, you trust in him, cast all you know about yourself on all you know about him. you will be saved.
Speaker: And and that's that's where the hope is. That's where the grace is. And again, when we... Go against. ah Genesis 9 -6, the death penalty. When we go against...
Speaker: uh justice biblical justice and we go against all of these things and try to muddy the water because of all these cultural dynamics. We're robbing people of the only thing that will give them hope in life. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's where... That's where the hope. That's where the answer. is found is in the gospel. yeah um and and in and trusting in Christ. We do believe because of the Noahic covenant that there is a debt to society. That is different.
Speaker: than the debt of sin? Yeah. Yeah. And that debt of society. will still need to be paid. Yeah. um but we do believe that there is hope. even for this woman. Yeah. um They're they're There is hope for...
Speaker: for any who would come to Christ. In repentance. and trusting in him That. If they will do that. Mm. than their sin debt.
Speaker: will be paid. yeah Um, Again, the debt to society. That's a different issue And that that will still have to be paid. But even... If you have to give your life to pay that.
Speaker: debt to society. There is eternal life and hope in Christ. yeah uh through trusting in him And, and Yes, I would. rejoice.
Speaker: yeah to hear. that she came to christ yeah same here And. And I would pray for that. yeah so um You know, if if she does end up going to prison. I pray that a chaplain or.
Speaker: Another inmate or someone. yeah would be able to present her with the gospel and that she would. She would. Have her eyes open and and come to know and and believe and love him. And that would be.
Speaker: the greatest outcome. of this horrible situation. yeah Um, Do you still feel that that needs to be paid to society? Mm -hmm. um Again, and and we've and this is kind of alluding to something we talked about before, we don't rejoice in the death of the wicked. Right. um we want salvation Yeah.
Speaker: for any who would believe. That's right. And so... ultimately at the end of the day, that's, that's what we want to land on is that. Um, We're not just.
Speaker: angry at her. We don't hate her. um We're not. wishing destruction upon her right um We, we.
Speaker: We don't want her to be robbed of the gospel. That's right. and all of these excuses that are given as defenses. are doing exactly what you just said it's robbing All of us of the gospel.
Speaker: um And we need to understand that sin is real and that. uh we're responsible for our sin yeah and um that there is a debt before god that's got to be paid yeah but that uh Through faith and trust in Christ.
Speaker: That debt. can be paid by his blood that's right Wow. Yeah, to tell her she's guilty is not ugly and cruel. It's the most loving thing we can do. That's it.
Speaker: Well? That's all I got, unless you got something else. I think we're good. All right. Well, we'll see you next time. on Answering Pilot Yeah. The Answering Pilot Podcast is a ministry of Randall House Church in Greer, South Carolina.
Speaker: You can learn more at www .randallhousebeer .com. slash church You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at at Randall House Church. Don't forget to like and subscribe!
Speaker: We'll see you next time.
