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Ep 59: From Lawyer to Angel Investor, Advisor & Dealmaker with Sunjay Mathews
177 Plays2 months ago
How do you turn your passion for sports into a career? What does it take to advise pro athletes and celebrities on investments and deals? And how can you start to angel invest yourself?
Sunjay Mathews, investor, advisor, and dealmaker in the sports and media sector, was able to make the leap from in-house counsel at FanDuel and DAZN, the biggest names in sports betting and streaming, into a legal and business consulting powerhouse. With his deep understanding of the complex (and often outdated) regulations surrounding sports betting, he began leading at the intersection of crypto and athletics, advising on sports partnerships with FTX and investing in blockchain-reliant companies like BetDex, and joining the board of tixbase.
Listen as Sunjay shares lessons from his career at the cutting edge of burgeoning industries, dealmaking with pro athletes, getting started as an angel investor, and more.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-59
Topics:
Introduction: 0:00
Transitioning from law associate to sports legal advisor at FanDuel: 3:40
Dealing with anachronistic regulations in the sports betting industry: 6:47
Moving into streaming at DAZN: 10:39
Getting a start as an independent advisor: 21:47
Dealmaking with pro athletes and celebrities: 26:08
Getting started as an angel investor: 34:12
Consulting on sports marketing with FTX and getting involved with crypto: 38:06
Investing and advising companies like BetDEX, tixbase, and Just Women’s Sports: 42:20
Uplifting Just Women’s Sports: 49:35
What you wish you’d known as a young lawyer: 57:11
Connect with us:
Sunjay Mathews: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunjay-mathews-b227a723/
Tyler Finn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft: https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading CLM platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues.
Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Career Beginnings and Challenges
00:00:00
Speaker
My first week there, we got shut down by the New York Attorney General, stating that our entire business was illegal. And that's definitely not the most amazing way to spend your first week at a company. yeah I was like, oh crap, like was this the right move? And you know there were a lot of situations with the regulatory scrutiny that you know kind of was like I missed the really fun time when FanDuel was you know early startup stage where no one was hiring them. I joined when it was obviously not the you know massive giant that it is now, but still like struggling, figuring out finances. Everyone was coming after us. Sports betting had not been formally legalized and we were kind of operating in this gray space.
00:00:48
Speaker
How do you turn your passion for sports into a career? What does it take to advise pro athletes and celebrities on investments and deals? And how can you start to angel invest yourself? Today, I am joined on the abstract by my friend Sanjay Matthews, an investor, advisor, and dealmaker in the sports and media sector.
00:01:12
Speaker
He's currently an advisor to companies like TickSpace, Just Women Sports, both of which we'll talk about today, and Golfer X. He was also previously a consultant to FTX. He led Legal at Dazon, a very cool sports streaming company, as well as at FanDuel. He started his career as an associate at Davis and Gilbert and Skadden Arps. two firms that most people here in New York have heard of before. Sanjay, welcome to this episode of The Abstract.
00:01:46
Speaker
Hey, appreciate it. Thanks for having me. um It's an honor. So there's a lot ah lot of people doing cool stuff out there. So I appreciate you asking me to join. No, no, no. I'm really excited about this one. We haven't had someone, I think, who's been able to transition back full time into investing and advising like you're doing. Let's start by going back a little ways. Did you always have a passion for sports? Did you know that this was going to be your career? The answer to the first part, yes. I always had a passion for sports. The answer to your second question, definitely not. I thought it was a bit of a pipe dream, honestly. um i've I've talked to people that said you know kind of parlaying a career in legal into sports is like almost as hard as making the NBA. and
00:02:36
Speaker
I learned that the hard way. i mean A lot of people see where I ended up. and you know You look at my LinkedIn profile and a lot of the highlights that you mentioned, but what's not listed there are you know the 50 plus jobs that I applied for that you know you're great, but sorry, we're going to go with someone else. and you know It's hard. It's hard to hear knows that many times. but i mean you know, a good support system, a great wife who kept kind of pushing me and you know, friends who believed in me too and family and I have been blessed. And you know, a lot of people reach out about how to sort of break into the sports career. And I want to say its probably 100 different ways to do it, you just kind of have to find the way that works for you. But regardless of the route you take, it it just requires a ton of perseverance, like,
00:03:23
Speaker
you know after you hear your first 49 nos and you say, all right, I'm done. Honestly God, if that happened to me, you know I wouldn't probably be on this podcast and I wouldn't have had the career you know that I've had and I continue to have. So yeah, it takes a lot of perseverance.
00:03:41
Speaker
I think you really make your own luck in that way, right? like If you keep pushing on a number of doors, maybe three open, and maybe one of those is the opportunity.
Transition to In-House Roles
00:03:52
Speaker
to Take us back to that moment when you were trying to transition out of a law firm as an associate and ultimately joined FanDuel. Were you just looking at sports and and media companies at that time? Were you looking at a whole host of different tech companies? How did you ultimately find your way to FanDuel? Funny story, I mean my plan like i enjoyed working at Scadden. I was an M and&A associate, but a couple of years in, I just realized like being a partner there wasn't really what I wanted. like It was a job, but it wasn't my career, um which you know just just wasn't a fit for me. I was a bit more entrepreneurial, and it was from Scadden where I sort of made that the decision that i wanted to at least explore in-house roles in industries that i found exciting and it wasn't just limited to sports you know but it was all the sexy industries it was sports it was tech uh it was movies it was music which you know surprise surprise they're like the four hardest and most impossible lawyer And to be honest, like it was from Skadden where I got a lot of those knows that I previously mentioned. And I did something I never thought I'd do, is I went to a different law firm. And in my head, I'm like, all right, Skadden, one of the best law firms in the world, like if I'm going to do the law firm thing, I got to do it here. And the only the way I'm leaving is if I have this in-house role you know in these industries that I love.
00:05:18
Speaker
but you know, insanity right is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. yeahp What I did was I went to a firm ah where I felt like a lot of people went into those sexy industry specific roles that I wanted to go to. And even though it was sort of a step back or you could argue a step you know laterally, it was very like, Calculated and strategic for the ultimate goal of going in house and went to Davis and Gilbert got that on my resume got a bit more experience and smaller tight transactions and tech and I don't even think I was there for a full year
00:05:54
Speaker
before So think about the fact that I did something I thought I'd never do go to a different law firm. And that's the only reason I ended up getting to Fandal. The other part of that story, and I tell people outside of perseverance, like breaking into these industries is networking, just getting to know people. And I kind of hate using the term networking because I think it has like a bad term like you have to be fake and try to see what you can get out of it. Honestly I just went out there and built relationships with people that I respected and people who I enjoyed learning more about and like all those authentic relationships without expecting anything in return other than like a good conversation. It was one of those people who worked at FanDuel who kind of submitted me for the job and definitely put me you know at the front of the line.
00:06:39
Speaker
versus really submitting on LinkedIn or you know via a recruiter and just being one of 500 resumes that may or may not get looked at. When I think of FanDuel and the sports gaming space, the first thing that comes to my mind, and and maybe it's just with my policy background you know coming out of that world a little bit, ah working with companies that are heavily regulated and maybe a little bit anachronistically regulated, right? and needing to push through that to see the business opportunity or realize the business model. I'm curious if you spent a lot of your time at FanDuel on that or if there were other things in your tenure that you felt most proud about accomplishing.
Crisis Management at FanDuel
00:07:23
Speaker
I'll say most of my career at FanDuel was just dealing with crisis.
00:07:28
Speaker
That's the lack of a better word. I mean, my first week there, we got shut down by the New York Attorney General, stating that our entire business was illegal. And that's definitely not the most amazing way to spend your first week at a company. Welcome. That was like, oh, crap. Was this the right move? And there were a lot of situations with the regulatory scrutiny that kind of was like, I missed the really fun time when FanDuel was early startup stage where no one was bring them I joined when it was obviously not the you know massive giant that it is now, but still like struggling, figuring out finances. Everyone was coming after us. Sports betting had not been formally legalized and we were kind of operating in this gray space.
00:08:13
Speaker
But I also think that's probably why it might have not been as attractive of a job for most lawyers as a, here's a job at the NBA or the NFL or, you know, Fox Sports, because we as lawyers generally avoid risk. Like that's literally our job, risk allocation and risk prevention. And I sort of saw a company that was on the verge of being shut down and I was like, sure, why not?
00:08:39
Speaker
Like, let's try it out. But working through that with you know a pretty awesome team of executives and other people, professionals, and then sort of doing a merger with DraftKings that got shut down by the FFTC, which a lot of people forget about, and then ultimately you know signing a term sheet to sell the company to Patty Power, which is now Flutter. Flutter has been repealed, and now the company is public. I mean, a lot of things went right. but so many things could have gone wrong. But yeah I think the way I thought about it was even if things go wrong, what an experience, right? and Like I kind of leaned into the uncomfortableness of literally not knowing if the company was going to exist in a month and just said, where else am I going to get this type of experience um as a legal executive that I can leverage into a future job? And candidly, like law firms weren't going anywhere. so
00:09:34
Speaker
yes I was in a position where you know I needed to pay rent or continue paying off my law school loans. like That was always there as a safety net. And I'm so glad I kind of leaned into the uncomfortableness because that sort of has followed me my entire career where I felt like I have continued to work in industries that weren't yet popular right before they became popular. So I was betting two to three years before it became legal you know I went to Dezone um before streaming was a thing and everyone still had cable packages and channels and people were like streaming. I'm like, no one's going to do that, especially in sports. And then you know when I was consulting with FTX, still like before crypto had its boom and everyone was trading NFTs.
00:10:24
Speaker
ah kind of I wouldn't say it's intentional. Some of it, like you said, is luck and you make it. But I feel like I've been blessed to continue to skate to where the puck's going to be instead of where it's at. And you know that's sort of what I'm continuing to look look for and see where I add you know add value.
00:10:40
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about why you decided to make the move to streaming and to Dzone. You know, we've been talking about your experience at FanDuel and one of the cool things about that is that like you're really actually essential to the business, that the business is in the midst of all of these huge regulatory issues, challenges. um There's the possibility of it getting shut down. there's There's these crises. The business, like the future of the business, really actually lies in legal and what legal does. You're not just like signing and negotiating a lease agreement.
00:11:14
Speaker
100%. I would say that, you know, there's a lot of legal departments at companies that don't really have as much power as they would like. very Look to for advice here and there and sometimes ignored or more, more often than not, you go to them when you've already made the problem.
00:11:31
Speaker
versus you know asking them for the advice before, because you're sort of like, legal's always going to say no. Interestingly enough, you know at Fandal, the legal department sort of drove the business and the strategy, and yeah every piece of the business needed legal sign-off.
00:11:47
Speaker
where there was a point when I was there where me and the CFO needed to sign off on every dollar of spend, whether it was $1 or $10 million. dollars and So this came to Christmas parties, contracts, you know like an equity deal with the NBA. But like, that's really how important legal was because the last thing you wanted someone to do is do a promotion that got a shutdown in the state or on a commercial that said the wrong thing without the right disclaimer, or do a partnership with an athlete that we couldn't do because of their status as an amateur or a professional. So honestly, I loved Vandal, loved the fact that it was such an important part of the business. I feel like that's how I was able to be more than just a lawyer, but just like as a business savvy person because law and legal kind of drove a lot of the decision making there. I thought I would never leave. Vandal was awesome.
00:12:40
Speaker
um it's It's like going through all like the hard problems, and when things were finally good, we got sold, we had money, we could celebrate. you know That's when I decided to leave. But honestly, I just left because there was just an awesome opportunity. I look at companies like children in terms of ah their age. And when I went to Spandola, it was sort of like you know a rambunctious teenager, maybe like a middle school kid that was knew how to walk but was always in trouble and you sort of had to like forward in the right direction. And when I went to the zone, you know, we had not yet launched in the US, I was one of the first employees, we had so hired John Skipper, you know, ESPN,
00:13:20
Speaker
Arguably one of the most powerful men in sports when he was there and the opportunity to be like one of his executives and work at a company that was truly a newborn where you had to shape you you really had to just keep it alive honestly. that and For me, it was just like a totally different challenge. and When I did get the job, I reached out to one of my mentors at Skadden and I said, hey, am I crazy for thinking of leaving because things are finally good. you know i'm things Things are kind of going smoothly. I've gotten really familiar in the space. and Because I was in gaming so early, I knew it better than most, yeah honestly, in in the entire US.
00:14:03
Speaker
And he was like, look, the second you get comfortable is the second you stop learning. So if you feel like there's nothing new to learn, which like that's an exaggeration. Obviously, there was always going to be new stuff to learn. Sure. But the the learning curve wasn't as steep as when I joined
The Future of Streaming and Sports Broadcasting
00:14:18
Speaker
a couple of years before he's like, try this out and, you know, sort of like balance out your experience. And and I think one of the reasons Duzone liked me was because of my betting experience and how I could sort of parlay that into a streaming environment.
00:14:33
Speaker
So that's why that's why I left his own. And I'd love to say I knew streaming was going to turn into what it is now. And the fact that everyone was streaming and Amazon and Apple and Netflix were going to. But I didn't. Honestly, it was just ah an opportunity found me.
00:14:48
Speaker
It seemed cool, and I just wasn't scared of the risk. And I think that's always the most important part. There was a lot that could go wrong, and I sort of kind of focused on all the things that could go right. And I think that's just like a general good mentality to have that has helped me in my career. You know, you always stay up all night, especially as a lawyer, thinking about all the things that could go wrong, yeah kind of like focus on all the things that can go right. And when things go wrong, handle it, you know? So that's sort of the approach.
00:15:17
Speaker
What do you think is actually going to happen with streaming having had that experience and and really watched it being a part of it as it was as it was growing up? It feels to me like everything was unbundled and now it's sort of getting all bundled back again and like sports are a big part of that and are really one of the things that's maybe driving it. I saw a stat recently that was out of like the 100 live broadcasts that were most watched in the US s last year. 95 of them were NFL games or something like that. Well, it's funny. Sports and Game of Thrones are like the only things that people watch live. Like everything else sort of binge. But sports is one of those things where like the second it happens, like the content is stale. Like no one is watching the NBA Finals on an hour delay.
00:16:10
Speaker
I have friends that live you know internationally that have to wake up at two or three in the morning to watch games because they know that the second it's out, it's going to go on Instagram, it's going to go on TikTok, someone's going to text them about what happened and there's absolutely no way to get that experience and that excitement. yeah like you know so so Honestly, I think that's why Netflix is now leaning into that world because It's the only thing, no matter what, that people need to watch live at that time. yeah And it's also really important for advertisers because everything else you can sort of fast forward or skip after 10 seconds or just kind of walk away. It's like, oh, you know, two minute commercial break. I'd see you later.
00:16:52
Speaker
But before it's you're sort of sort of just there. ah To answer your question on what I think is going to happen, it's weird. We went from unbundling to a lot of specific channels. I think we're just going to go back to bundling again.
00:17:07
Speaker
All the things that we hated about cable in terms of buying full packages of channels that we didn't want um so that we could specifically pick what we wanted is just going to end up being, oh, here's cable presented in a different way.
00:17:22
Speaker
on a bundled you know situation or platform. ah hu The more interesting thing about streaming is just the different ways of watching, um which technology is getting there, where there will be an opportunity for us to watch together sort of as a watch party. It kind of exists now, but not as prevalent. There's going to be a way for you to get different commentators. You know you saw a little bit little bit of it in the Super Bowl, where there's like a Nickelodeon version of the Super Bowl for kids. Yeah. Where Spongebob Squarepants is a commentator and when they score touchdowns, like slime goes places. There's going to be things like that for different demographics, whether you're you know Gen Z or a boomer or whether you're international. There's going to be different camera angles that you can control to really make it personalized. Yeah. more and more, you want to focus on a particular player, there's going to be ways where you can, you know, integrate your sports bets, so that sort of like show you how close you because, because right now, especially for people that bet it's a two screen experience, you have your phone up, keeping track of like how close you are to hitting a parlay versus
00:18:34
Speaker
why not just like have that on one screen experience but if i'm not betting why would i want that so i think there's gonna be a lot of personalization and streaming that's gonna get introduced and i think that's gonna be like the big game changer like that's where ai is gonna come into play and how you're gonna like upsell people on hey here you can pay for this for four ninety nine a month and just get your basic but Pay an extra dollar, $2 and you'll get 10 more different versions of the same stream. have Like a totally different experience. So that's super cool. I mean, i so I watch a lot of tennis and I always want to see the court angle, which they very rarely show on live TV and I get it. It's, they show the higher angle so that we can see the point construction. But if I had the option to go in and click and see the players from down close, like right behind the baseline, I would totally do that.
00:19:27
Speaker
100%. And then don't forget, like, you know, you're miking up players now to drink. Yeah. So like, everyone wants like a little taste of like what it's like to be an athlete and what they're talking about on the, on the bench or, you know, in the locker room or whatever the case might be. So having those, you know, insights is also going to be a big part of it.
00:19:46
Speaker
And then there's also that creator economy, too, where, like, I think at some point, you know, these leagues are going to license some of this content out for people to cut and create memes and introduce anime graphics. And they're kind of doing it now ah illegally, candidly, right?
00:20:03
Speaker
There's no real licensing but at some point there's going to be a way where the league is going to learn to monetize and just say, hey, do it, get amazing content but it's going to cost $100 a month or $100 a year for you to have access and we're going to put restrictions on it where you at most can clip 30 seconds of a game but then it's going to push the content out there and you know reach a new audience. but I think the leagues are starting to realize innovation is critical. You're seeing a lot of it in baseball with, you know, having runners on second base and extra innings and, you know, little levers having a, you know, like they're changing the rules. They're introducing potentially, you know, a robot, like a computer strike zone. I think a lot of these leagues are going to have to start doing that. And I think there's all these new
00:20:49
Speaker
Incumbent incumbent leagues that are also gonna push the envelope a little bit too i don't know if you saw the introduction of unrivaled basketball the three on three women's league no that sounds interesting now oh so basically they're gonna get like you know the top twenty to thirty wnba players and have them compete in three on three and one on one tournament.
00:21:07
Speaker
during the season in Miami. It's going to be a little bit more content forward. It's obviously going to be the best of the best. But that's going to push the WNBA to be a bit more innovative. They're also going to get a much bigger paycheck, get some equity in the in the business. But leagues like that are popping up. And because of this entrepreneurial world that we have, a lot of people are excited about you know how you can kind of push the envelope.
00:21:31
Speaker
and yeah the more you know stagnant leagues. like Look at live golf and PGA, right? like A lot of people you know would argue it's a bad thing and some people would argue it's a good thing. But for me, anything that's changing like the status quo and anything is is super important.
Advising and Angel Investing
00:21:49
Speaker
I want to come back to that point about women's sports and alternative leagues, the opportunity there a little bit later. Clearly, you understand the business of sports, right? like And I'm sure you you partially picked that up at FanDuel and at Dazon. But when did you start to advise companies? Because I think you know folks will often come and ask people like you, an advisor to five or 10 or 15 different businesses, how do I get started?
00:22:18
Speaker
When did that start for you? Honestly, it was during the pandemic. Izing was not anything that was on my radar. like Being a general counsel at a sports company was sort of like always the ultimate dream. and I sort of achieved it and it was as awesome as I expected and I was really you know i really enjoyed it. But then like the world stopped for a very, very long time. of I had a lot of time to reflect and I am a personality that like always needs to be doing stuff and honestly work was slow like Thankfully, I was still employed um because they found you know found me important and critical Thank God, but I also had to do layoffs of friends and it kind of just like sucked, but you know I was blessed, but I was just antsy. Honest to God, I was just antsy. I was like where I was at home. We couldn't travel. like I wasn't seeing people. So I sort of just reached out to my network, that network that I've spent like over a decade you know building and just jumping on calls like this and just saying, hey, I haven't seen a human being that's not my family in like four months. while It's like, let's just chat. And then like heard about other people also kind of getting antsy and building things or starting companies. And I was like, I'd love to help. And the interesting thing is when you offer help for free, like no one's going to say no. Then I learned when you offer help where you only get paid if you solve the problem, people are also not going to say no.
00:23:47
Speaker
ah hot so So that's kind of how it started. you know I was thankful to still have a full time job at the zone that was paying me well enough to you know live my comfortable life. hey And I wasn't so transactional because that wasn't the motivation for advising. It was it was truly just boredom. It was just know with curiosity. It was curiosity. It was a little bit of boredom. It was you know a little bit of ants in my pants. so um I was doing that and you know started being valuable. you know Started being valuable, leveraging my relationship capital. Started being valuable because I had helped scale businesses and launch businesses and I knew of mistakes only because I made those mistakes myself. So I knew, hey, I thought that too, but if you do that, this is what's going to happen. So we shouldn't do that, but let's think about it this way. no And then that sort of scaled unintentionally.
00:24:44
Speaker
but it always went back to not being a transactional person and truly not chasing a dollar, but really trying to like learn myself and also add value where it's pretty easy to tell someone, Hey, what what keeps you up at night? And they say X. And I'm like, well, if I fix X, what's that word to you? And they're like, why? And I'm like, well, if I fix X, can I get Y? And they're like a hundred percent, you know?
00:25:11
Speaker
Like and I'm like if I don't fix acts like you owe me nothing But like we try and we get to know each other and you know, I gave it, you know Yeah a shot. So so honestly like my advice anyone trying to advise is just do it right like just go out there and just offer your help to people and a lot of people are gonna say no, thank you and you know, I also advise in a lot of industries that I probably had no business advising in but I also I look back on my career and everything I did, I did stuff that I didn't know how to do until I started doing it. I did not know anything about daily fantasy sports or gambling before I joined FanDuel. Sure. Definitely didn't know anything about streaming before I joined Dzone and all the industries that I've advised in, whether it's cannabis or or web three,
00:25:59
Speaker
All industries that, you know, I sort of just continue to be a curious person that was willing to say, hey, I don't know that. Let me find out. Yeah. Sort of sort of like faking it, I think was really important. Is that the same mentality that you bring to I would characterize it as sort of the deal negotiation that you do on behalf of athletes or or celebrities? Do you feel like that same approach has has helped you build the relationships and and build a business there as well?
00:26:27
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'll say a lot of the negotiation just came from training too. Yeah, I believe I'm like a pretty, pretty great negotiator. But it's because I've been doing it for so long. Like, I'm sure I was terrible when I first started. Right. But I think I'm, I'm well spoken and well researched. And, and to me, the thing I like about commercial life is you're still always trying to get to a yes.
00:26:54
Speaker
And I never took the approach, not all lawyers do this, but I never took the approach of winning a point for the sake of winning a point for my ego. It was just like, what are the three things my client cares about? Let's focus on that. Let's not win this point just because it's cool to say, I'm smarter than you, I tricked you and I got this better term. um And sort of, I always try to get to yes. And that's sort of the more collaborative approach I take to to negotiation. like For lack of a better word, negotiation is adversarial, but it can still be collaborative. And I think that's what has allowed me to be a good negotiator. i also um It's also that relationship capital. There's a lot of times where I'm negotiating against friends where we can kind of cut through the bullshit.
00:27:38
Speaker
And just say, all right, you know, like, what are we trying to do here? Like, what's important to you? Like, let's still like, get the best deal for you. But let's get the best deal for us as well. Because we want us both to be happy. And me kind of one upping you is just going to start the partnership off in the wrong way. And then for the athletes and the celebrities, it's just did a lot of those deals that Fandul did a lot of them at its own, made some mistakes, learned some lessons. And then I apply those now to the negotiations I have when I'm helping athletes or when I'm helping brands, we're trying to figure out like what athletes to work with.
00:28:16
Speaker
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00:29:30
Speaker
their brand, their accomplishments, their their name, they really get to share in in the winnings. It's not just like a little cut or a payment. 100%. And I also think the reason I always was a fan of deals that at least involved some aspect of equity is because it aligns the interests of the investor and the brand. I mean, I've been doing a lot of deal making on the brand side.
00:29:55
Speaker
obviously, Fandold is own some of the other brands that I've helped or advised on. And candidly, if you offer someone and let's just say, Hey, I'm going to pay you $3 million, $5 million dollars to do a couple of Instagram posts, once they get paid, like, it's sort of a bare minimum thing. yeah They're like, all right, what's the bare minimum that I've promised you to do to, you know, and Sure blame them like it's sort of like when you're working at a company like if there's no like discretionary bonus at the end or Hours mark to hit like sure there's some people that are gonna over deliver because that's how they're wired But yeah majority of people are like alright if you're paying me for nine to five and I don't get compensated for a minute over five Why am I still here?
00:30:37
Speaker
leave even that's true um right nine so It's not fair to like expect them to do more because you paid them a significant amount of money. That's that's your decision. But if you're saying, hey, in addition to the $1 million dollars or $5 million, dollars whatever the number is, you're also getting a 1% stake in this business. Oh, and by the way, if you over deliver if you're really good and authentic in how you deliver your services, that 1% might end up being $50 million. dollars yeah or another another million dollars or five million dollars or whatever the case might be then all of a sudden and you you have like a really good partnership instead of like sort of like I go back to that concept like I don't want to be transactional you know a transactional partnership to a more equitable you know partnership
00:31:25
Speaker
And honestly, you're you're also compensating them properly, right? Is like, look at, you know, Jordan when he did his deal with Nike, that was the first like rev share deal that like ever happened for an athlete. It used to be just straight licensing fee. Yep. You could argue he was underpaid.
00:31:44
Speaker
I'm sure like they've revised it. I'm sure he has some equity in me. I'm sure he's doing okay. But generally speaking, like look at what Nike grew and a company might not even exist if they didn't get Jordan. but yeah It might be a bankrupt, non-existent business.
00:31:59
Speaker
yeah I would argue he's underpaid significantly. yeah right And you say that about things like Messi who has brought MLS and Jersey sales and you know just like the Miami teams value up. um And I think a lot of these athletes are now learning that. I'm curious what the next iteration of this is gonna be. um Now I think there's a lot of athletes that, and celebrities getting like these titles, chief creative director, chief diversity officer. A lot of them have been more just
00:32:30
Speaker
you know, ah not not real roles, but more just roles. But I wonder if people are going to start saying, hey, I want a board seat to have some decision making um as an equity stakeholder or hey, I want this role, but I want the requirements that come with it too. Like if I'm your chief creative officer, I want all creative to go through me and my team because when I retire, this is the type of work that I want to do. And you know, this is the name I'm associating. But yeah, I mean, it's it's a fascinating world.
00:33:05
Speaker
And obviously these people push, move the needle more than most people. And like, that's just limited to athletes and celebrities. There's the influencers too, who can really push product in a way that like, I'm amazed by for doing a couple of things on TikTok.
00:33:21
Speaker
Yeah, I'm amazed when I buy something off an Instagram Reel. I mean, it works. It works. The the the algorithm is is flawless. Really. There are a couple couple of times at night where I'm like, I'm still doom-scrolling. like I don't know. It's one o'clock. But they're doing a good job. I mean, it's it's it's scary out there. But um I think brands are are realizing that these are the people that really push products more than these random you know national advertisements. it's People, I mean, you can make a commentary on, you know, the US society that we care so much, what a random athlete decides to use as a toothbrush and toothpaste. So that's might be a different podcast. But bottom line is they do like people care, you know, who is whose picture and whose social media posts is pushing a particular product and making buying decisions based on it.
00:34:14
Speaker
You started to do some investing yourself. I think we can call you an angel investor. Yeah. I mean i don't know if the term's accurate. I definitely do invest in very small amounts, but that that just seemed like the right term. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, once again, similar to advising, it's just something I always wanted to do. And I didn't put structure around it in the beginning because I just wanted to be as agile as possible. I mean, if you invest in anything, right, whether it's a $1,000 check or a $10,000 check or a $100,000 check, investment makes you an angel investor, period, end stop. So you know if you have a friend or someone that you've been impressed with what they've built in the past or what they're building and they're out to fundraise and there's no limitations on check size and you want to get a little bit of the action, you know,
00:35:03
Speaker
you can do your due diligence and invest via you know an LLC or in your own personal name. Now, do that a couple of times, make some mistakes, invest in things you shouldn't have invested in, do some investments, and then maybe you have a knack for it. Maybe you figure out like, wow, I really understand D2C businesses, but I don't really understand B2B, so maybe I should focus on D2C, or hey,
00:35:29
Speaker
I know I invested in this company in the Philippines, but like, I don't really understand that market. Like, yeah it stick to the US or stick to gambling. And it's sort of a learning process for me, which is why I sort of use funds that are sort of not necessary for my, my life. It's more, yeah okay this is like, I'm still have a traditional diversified portfolio of stocks and bonds and 401ks, but then I have a little extra,
00:35:58
Speaker
per year that I set aside for investments. I'm pretty focused on it. like Even if I find an investment in December that like I love, if I'm over my number, I'm over my number because I want to have some discipline. yep Now I'm starting to talk about, OK, I've really enjoyed this. I've got some wins. Are there other people that can complement my weaknesses in terms of territories or industries? And can we kind of do something together where there's doing it too, I'm doing it informally. Can we do it together more formally and structured? But yeah, it's just it's an interesting world ah to learn more about. Where does your deal flow come from? Is it all relationships? One one million. my My deal flow is is all over the place, but it's once again, it just goes back to all that relationship capital. Sure. It's a lot of people that just sort of like, hey, you should meet Sanjay. Sanjay, you should take a look at this. Hey,
00:36:54
Speaker
You are in the tech space. I'd love you to tell me what you think. I'm thinking about investing in it. You can invest in it with me. um And it's also just sort of being sort of like having the reputation of being open to having a conversation with anyone, which I am. Honestly, like i'm happy to like there is no like, oh my God, you're too junior. This is a waste of my time. like I'm just open to talking to anyone that's a good person. And I usually get more out of it than the other person um because it's fun. They have energy. They're doing cool stuff.
00:37:23
Speaker
Yeah, there's not like an age requirement for innovation, right? And i I would argue the younger you are, the more differently you see the world and kind of pushes my my ability ah to see the world differently too. So deal flow is very much just one relationship capital and also identifying yourself as an angel investor on LinkedIn helps. like yeah like i've done like um I have a call next Tuesday with someone. I don't know. We have no connections. Purely saw as an angel investor, send me a LinkedIn message. I said, hey, shoot mean he meant like shoot me an email what you're building and we' take a look. and It was somewhat impressive and I want to learn more, so we're going to talk on Tuesday.
00:38:01
Speaker
so That's cool. yeah think I think that you know LinkedIn headline is is intentional too for set deal flow. I want to ask you about some of the companies you've worked with or or have been working with.
Consulting and Industry Challenges
00:38:14
Speaker
I've got to ask you about ah FTX. I know you were a sports marketing consultant there. ah How did you start to get into crypto and and what what sort of work did you do for them? I mean, I know obviously you weren't like a member of the executive team, but with everything that came out and and happened, like how did you navigate that fallout even just personally as it was all coming out?
00:38:37
Speaker
Yeah, so so I got into k crypto accidentally. Honestly, like when when I mentioned that I was sort of like advising um and just sort of like willing to talk to anyone, ah someone reached out and said, hey, there's like this crypto exchange that's trying to do sports partnerships, hu but don't know where to start or what to do.
00:38:56
Speaker
and you have relationships with athletes. So, you know, are you down to take a call? um And I said, sure. And, you know, sort of sort the rest is history. Like I, and they were like, hey, like we didn't think about this stuff. And oh my God, you, you know, these athletes, like we'd love to, you know, make an offer to them to help market the company. And Canada Sports Marketing Partnerships is like what I've been doing, like,
00:39:23
Speaker
You know, did a bunch of athlete partnerships with Fandool, did a bunch with Zone internationally and locally. So this wasn't very difficult. Now, what was difficult and was very similar to gambling. And I and i think the reason I think I was good at understanding crypto was that it had a lot of the same issues as gambling when I first started to get in there.
00:39:43
Speaker
um There's a high like threshold to understand it. It required money. it It's investment, but also like ah others can argue it is a form. like Investing is a form of gambling, maybe a bit structured. And it was also in a very gray area where regulations hadn't caught up with it. So you're operating in a gray space until regulations caught up. So the approach in scaling, the approach in launching, the approach in educating consumers,
00:40:10
Speaker
Very similar where I was like, wait, I've been through this before. Yeah. So did that for about, you know, six to 12 months with them, helping them, you know, structure and negotiate a lot of their sports partnerships that you're familiar with. And, you know, they got so big that they didn't really need a consultant anymore. Obviously, because, you know, when I started working with them, it was, you know, five to 10 people in Hong Kong. And then then all of a sudden,
00:40:35
Speaker
I blank and it took a 300 person business yeah as and I was sort of like I don't like the original value I added was the relationships to get to in front of the people, you know, but um yeah, you know, the fallout was unexpected and scary and awful and all of the stuff. and you know I was an equity investor in the business because I believed in it as much as the other people because that's what I had been told and what I was led to believe and that was a mistake. But I wasn't happy. um but But I think after you know a couple of couple of days or maybe a week of like feeling somewhat sorry about myself, like how did this happen? You can't cry over spilled milk.
00:41:18
Speaker
yeah have to sort of move forward knowing that like I did nothing wrong. I was a consultant who had a job to structure sports partnerships. That was my only job and that's what I did. right and yeah and My relationships thankfully, are real enough where they weren't, you know, like, Oh my God, like, it was just like, they know who I am as a person. Because it wasn't just a, I only interacted with you for like, these three hours when we're negotiating, you know, business terms, it was like, we got to know one another, we grabbed drinks, like, you can tell what someone who someone is, I look them in the eyes and sharing, you know, sharing a drink with them. um So thankfully, like, that was,
00:42:01
Speaker
Like the money will come and go. Like that's just a part of life, right? But like yeah that you've built and fostered for over a decade. Don't come and go that easily, especially ones that you value. So I'm just thankful that though, that those were real because obviously it's easy to be friends with someone when things are going right. ever like You realize who your real friends are when things aren't going great. So I want to ask you about a couple other companies that you're working with too. You talked about crypto and sports betting being similar. I think that's a super interesting analogy. I like that. I know you're working with this company Betdex that's bringing those two worlds together.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yep. Can you tell us about what you're doing with them? Yeah. um'm so I'm just an angel investor in Bethec. Varun was a finance lead at Fandl when I was corporate counsel there. so We did a lot of the work together. um He actually stayed for a year after I left. He's a very good friend. I honestly consider him family.
00:43:01
Speaker
um And him and Nigel Eccles, who's the founder of Fandal, you could argue the man who created the daily fantasy sports industry, ah they partnered seeing this opportunity to bring you know sports wagering to the crypto audience in ah in a you know regulated way. next To me, seeing the opportunity in betting and the opportunity in crypto was two men who I really respect leading the charge. It just seemed like a no-brainer investment for me for them to you know hopefully continue building the momentum there and you know giving me a return on my investment at some point. Because they're good friends, you know obviously we'll you know, informally like give them my thoughts and be a sounding board, but nothing formal other than writing a check. And you're pretty involved in this company tick space as well. Can you tell us about that? Are you on the board there? or um I'm on the board there. They're building like a pretty amazing like technological platform.
00:44:04
Speaker
For lack of a better word, it's just I have been offered a decent number of board roles just over the course of my career. And a lot of them I say no to just because, you know, time is valuable and, you know, it just it just really.
00:44:17
Speaker
needs to be something that I believe in. And the thing that I like the most about tick space is even though they're a blockchain business ah for ticketing, when we talk, they're like, we're not a blockchain business, we're a ticketing business. And to me, that was that was interesting because obviously, more than blockchain, ah competent people use tickets. And obviously, there's much more people who don't understand blockchain that use tickets than the other way around. And I do think the NFT tickets situations that are out there on the blockchain required to open a wallet and get ethereum or salona and there's just all the entry entry and then you're like i don't know what i'm doing like i just wanna go to a show yeah i'm like. The technology is on the block chain but nothing changes for the end user.
00:45:02
Speaker
Your experience is buying something with your credit card or crypto, if you'd like, um getting a QR code and all the security and additional benefits that they provide is on the back end and additional data and security for the the user. They help control a secondary market.
00:45:20
Speaker
And what I like the most about them is, one, it's just a great team. Like Emil and Vincent are the co-founders, really smart guys. And that's a little bit of betting on not just the horse, but also the jockey. They're backed by Ava Labs, which is like a fantastic you know blockchain protocol for speed. And they have a ton of traction internationally. you know They just signed a deal that gives them 90% of market share um in Turkey. They're having conversations with ah football clubs in Brazil.
00:45:49
Speaker
and they're just And it's clear that they have momentum because they're going to partners and venues and leagues and saying, hey, we can help you make more money. And then and that's ultimately like what everyone's trying to do. And then all of a sudden, people are like, oh, wait, tell me more. It's like, oh, we can.
00:46:07
Speaker
you know help eliminate fraud ah we can help deal with scalping we can help a piece of the secondary market oh and in the long term because we're on the blockchain um there's additional like fan benefits and community belt benefits that we can introduce.
00:46:23
Speaker
The other thing I really like about them is they're not egotistical and like everything needs to be tick space or nothing. They're happy to work with other ticketing platforms and just be the backend solution from a technology standpoint. so For me, it's, oh, you don't you're not trying to win and beat Ticketmaster, which is damn impossible. You just want to work with them. and If you build a solution that's just so fantastic,
00:46:46
Speaker
you're a great acquisition target or a great and a technology partner. And it's just, it's been fun. They're currently in the process of raising. So obviously if anyone is interested in letting me know, and I'm happy to make the introduction to Emil and Vincent so they can tell you a bit more about, you know, what they're building and what their vision is. But that's one of the companies where I'm a bit more involved in outside of just, you know, writing a check.
00:47:12
Speaker
I mean, this seems like a space that's just like ripe to be disrupted. If you think about all of the complaints about the user experience around ticketing, that DOJ case around Live Nation and Ticketmaster, it just seems like a space that's ready to be disrupted.
00:47:29
Speaker
Exactly. I think i think that that's kind of the point. But for what for for them, they're not like trying to be disruptors once again. They're just trying to improve the situation right now from a technology standpoint because, candidly, the technology is really stale in a lot of these companies. um It's all like really slow and you're just like, how is there this not a better experience with what people have built?
00:47:50
Speaker
So they're building it and I think they're doing a really good job. And the nice thing is that the traction that they've gotten overseas is proof. And, you know, we're not talking about like one million, we're talking about like 22 million tickets, you know, that they're going to control of of and servicing. um And I think a lot of the and NFT type blockchain type ticketing companies out there, they're just Eventbrite, maybe Eventbrite plus, like They're great and they provide a lot of solutions, but they can't do more than like a thousand person event or a 10,000 person event. But honestly, if you're able to provide those benefits without changing any experience for the consumer, other than it's better, the controls are costs and there's security, you know, there's no security concerns, but you can do it for a million, 22 million, then that's pretty good. so
00:48:40
Speaker
no last Oh, yeah, go ahead. No, I was gonna say it's funny because when I, you know, when I first met them, their company name was NFT ticks. And I feel like my, my only value app is to change the name. and NFT is just like a scary word to a lot of people. And you lose a a lot of adoption versus you get an email from tick space. They're like, Oh, like it doesn't, once again, it doesn't matter that it's on blockchain. No one knows how our codes work.
00:49:08
Speaker
I could not tell you how the internet works. I have absolutely no idea how we're streaming right now. now If you told me this is on the blockchain, I'd be like, cool. like all right right but So no one needs to understand the technology. They just need to understand the you know the consumer benefit for the consumer, obviously, and the economic advantage ah for for the you know for the venue.
00:49:30
Speaker
ah Last substantive question before I ask you maybe my traditional closing questions and and some fun ones. The opportunity around women's sports seems like a huge opportunity just from the perspective of like making society a better place, providing more equality and and opportunity around sports. And obviously there's a ton of investment there. I think maybe earlier I referenced Angel City and the work that Serena Williams is is doing in the space. Yeah, like tell us about some of the work that you're doing in in women's sports and the opportunity that you see there.
Commitment to Women's Sports
00:50:10
Speaker
Yeah, so for for what it's worth, this is like I feel like another one of those where I feel like I got into women's sports before it got cool and exploited, which I'm like really happy about. But I always thought that there was an opportunity there um just because I love sports. And it didn't make sense that 50% of the population, which is female, maybe even 51, we're just ignoring, right? So I just knew at some point it was going to happen. I just didn't know when.
00:50:37
Speaker
i I'd be remiss to tell you that like I identified just women's sports as an opportunity and went out. I have a friend who posted on Instagram, Hey, need legal help with a contract with that. If you have any recommendations, let me know. I swear to God, this was like December of 2022 or even 2021, like right after the pandemic or during the pandemic. And once again, I was kind of bored. I was curious. i hadn't walk A really long time we went to college together.
00:51:07
Speaker
And I replied and I was just like, I do that. Literally, that three words. I do that. And she was like, he was like oh, like how much it would it cost for you to like take a look at X, Y, and Z? And I was like, send me the contracts and you know I'll take a look. And there were very basic contracts that given my like background and very like complicated things, like I was like, ahll I literally told her, I was like, I'll just do this for free.
00:51:31
Speaker
but Yeah, it's just like this is like not like this is like 30 minutes of my day like I got this like don't worry about it and she told me about what they're doing and I was really impressed and really impressed with the founder Haley Rosen and what they're doing and Obviously, the name gives it away just women's sports. Most women's media companies out there are sub-brands of a male-dominated media company. you know like Highlight Her is a sub-brand of Bleacher Report. ESPNW is a sub-brand of ESPN. I mean, the WNBA is a sub-brand of the NBA. And here's Her as a you know Division I women's soccer player, seeing an opportunity to just say, hey, we're going to focus all of our attention on women's sports and nothing else.
00:52:12
Speaker
So we're not going to say, Oh, our best advertisers go to men's sports and whatever's leftover goes to women's sports. Our best writers go to men's sports. It's right. Everything we build is to, is for the coverage of women's sports. And when I learned that, I just thought that that was like a great opportunity. And you know, then we sort of like structured a more formal advisory role for like a couple of months to help them out.
00:52:37
Speaker
on the legal side as they got their funding and eventually were able to afford ah you know a law firm and a GC and all that stuff. So my involvement with them is not as every day as it used to be. But like but I do feel good that like early on I was like, yeah, this is awesome. What you guys are doing is great. And it's awesome to see you know their momentum and their growth. And I'm obviously on the cap table as a part of it. but Yeah, I mean, women's sports is is popular and you know that that unrivaled league and you know, and ws so there's just like a lot going on. I mean, even just all the drama around like what's going on with Kaitlyn Kark and the WNBA and not making the USA Olympics team like sure. reading I'm just like, people are talking about it. Like that's amazing. Right? Like to me, I think everything in life is about storytelling.
00:53:28
Speaker
I think the WNBA, all these athletes have amazing stories to tell that aren't just getting out there because you're talking about women that are like giving birth and then coming back and being high-end professional athletes. and yeah A lot of them are LGBTQ. What is that experience in like a locker room? and and Is that difficult? and you know Just being viewed like sort of as a sub-brand or like the struggles of not flying commercial and making a good jillion dollars and right And even the stories of, Hey, it's the off season. I can't take it off because I didn't make enough money. So I have to go overseas to Russia, like Brittany Griner and get a paycheck and then get, you know, put in jail. And like, there's all these amazing stories out there that need to be told. And I think people are going to start telling it and just women's sports focused on it. And I think that's what male sports leagues have figured out. Like yeah they're doing a fantastic job storytelling.
00:54:27
Speaker
You know, with LeBron James, like, the truth is in the NBA, like, even if you don't like basketball, there's probably like five to 10 NBA players you can name anyway. Just because they're more relevant than basketball, yeah right? And like, that's sort of like what needs to happen in women's sports because those personalities are out there and it's still early. That's the other thing too. Like, the NBA and the NFL and the MO, they've been around for like a hundred years, right? The NBA is around.
00:54:54
Speaker
10, 15, I'm not even sure, but it's still really, really early. So I think it's it's nice to, you know from an investment perspective, like I think there's a lot of a lot more upside right involved in women's sports. There's still upside in men's sports too. It's not like it's getting less popular, but I would i would argue the curve is not as steep ah huh as it is for women's sports. so Yeah, JWS is doing really cool stuff. And Hailey Rosen is a rock star, you know building a great team. And my involvement was all because you know one of the people on her team posted something on Instagram. And I'm i'm the one weird enough to respond and be like, I'd do that. I'm sure people wouldn't. you know And just swipe right. But I was like, why not? It was cool to learn. And and I'll be honest, I didn't know as much about women's sports before that call.
00:55:44
Speaker
yeah you know It's
Personal Preferences and Career Reflections
00:55:46
Speaker
super cool. I learned a lot from that call and working with them and and just being just you know very interested in what's the opportunities in that space.
00:55:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's super cool. and This has been such a fun conversation. A couple of traditional closing questions that I like to ask our guests. The first is, and I hope I'm not putting you on the spot with this, if there's a book you've read recently or that's been influential in your career that you want to recommend to our audience. I mean, I'm not going to lie. I don't read. reading It's like my least favorite thing to do in the world. um My wife loves to read, but I think I just do so much reading as a lawyer. It's contracts at Skadden where like whenever I'm trying to chill out, it's always listening to music or just kind of like um watching TV and like I love watching TV. That's like very like dumb and doesn't require my brain. I do a lot of reading just like articles and stuff but like I can't even remember like the last book I read like probably in like college because it was required. like I do not read anything. That's all right. That's a honest answer. I love talking like I feel like a lot of like you know there's a lot of conversations that have stuck with me podcast stuff like that. but yeah
00:57:04
Speaker
It just, I can't even remember. When people buy me books, I'm like, this was a waste. And we'll never be open. So sorry, I got nothing for you. That's all right. My last question for you that I like to ask all of our guests. If you could look back on your days as a young lawyer, maybe just getting started at Skadden, something that you know now that you wish that you'd known back then?
00:57:33
Speaker
Stop caring what other people think. Honestly, like I think early in my career, like i got especially in law school, like caring a lot about like what rank you are because everything was graded on a curve. Are you on law review? um Are you on moot court? Are you a champ? I got caught up in all the BS. like Even like just going into law school, like what ranking is your law school? Oh, you're not the best law school in New York. like All that stuff. like I feel like law school creates this like very like artificial world of like you need to do these things or you haven't made it as a lawyer, um you know which is why like I went to Skadden, which is like a ranked law firm. I went to law review and you know all that stuff. and i went to like you know I probably could have saved money and gone to a law school that was less ranked and probably got a pretty good education, but I fell into that trap and I wanted to be a partner because everyone said I needed to be a partner. and like Right now, you know I'm not even practicing law. You know you could even argue I'm unemployed for lack of a better word because I work on the projects that I want to work on and have a consultancy where people are like, what do you do? And like I'll be in a room where someone's like, I'm a partner at Skadden. I'm the general counsel here and I'm like, I'm just chilling and like working on fun projects and you know and learning is is, and I'm sure it gets a lot of like those weird, you know, but like this is the happiest I've ever been.
00:59:00
Speaker
Which is to think about where, you know, I was a general counsel at a sports company. I worked at Skadden, you know, and that wasn't the happiest ever was like flexibility, control, building something when I was happy. So I wish I knew back then, because I would have probably made these changes earlier, where it was less about what is your title? Like, I remember like arguing about being a general counsel versus a chief chief legal officer. as a Yeah.
00:59:27
Speaker
And like in hindsight, that's dumb. What matters more is like do they value you? like What is the responsibilities do you you have? or Do you have a seat at the table? Are you learning? What is your salary? like I was like, oh, like I really had it in my heart to be a chief legal officer, general counsel, just like, what? like Does that matter? you know but that was That was something I cared about. right so For me, it's just I wish early on I like learned that it was it's less about like the titles and the bullshit and more about like follow your heart and your dreams and what you want to do. and Even if it's not like the top 10 law firm, maybe it's a firm that really works in sports, that works in this industry that you find fascinating and that's more important. you know or like why Why do you need to be in law review? Sure, it helps you get jobs, but are they jobs you want?
01:00:19
Speaker
yeah like I didn't want a blue book on a Saturday in ah in a library just to say I was on a library, but that's what I did. like Instead, maybe I should have like gotten a part-time job working at an agency or working with a sports partner and getting more hands-on experience. Now, it's easy to say, you know as ah as a 39-year-old, I'm 37 and you're in the heart of it all and trying to impress your parents and your friends and your colleagues, but ah really like it's just funny like how different my mind is now.
01:00:49
Speaker
where like would I even have gone to Skadden? Would I you know have even applied for a law review? Stuff like that. right Or maybe the like there we had a sports um sports journal, but it wasn't as prestigious. but like more you know Things like that.
01:01:04
Speaker
What a great place to leave it. This has been really fun, Sanjay. Yeah, thank you for having me. This was super fun and I appreciate it. I appreciate you ah inviting me up. And to all of our listeners, thanks so much for tuning in and we hope to see you next time.