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Episode 6 - Labour organizing, for normies
65 Plays5 years ago
With guests Bruce Fafard and Saba Mossagizi
In this episode we give you a look at how real union organizing works with two organizers who worked on successful certifications for two different worksites in Calgary. If you don’t know what card check or CLAC means or how to help workers build power you will by the end of the episode.
Further reading:
Unifor grows in Kenney’s Alberta
On The Line: The Struggle of Alberta’s Packing Plant Workers
Rebel Diaz - Which Side Are You On? Remix ft. Dead Prez and Rakaa Irriscience
Alberta Views: A Questionable Bargain, a magazine feature on CLAC
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Friends and enemies, welcome to The Progress Report. I am your host Duncan Kinney. We're here in Treaty 6 territory in our usual dimly lit basement, and today we've got a couple of great interviews lined up. And I'd like to introduce producer Jim to set up what we're on about today. Jim, who are we talking to? What are we talking about?
Why Do Left Politics Focus on Unions?
00:00:16
Speaker
Hey folks, we've got a real good one for you this week. We're going to pull back the curtain and give you a look at what real union organizing is like.
00:00:22
Speaker
A lot of folks wonder why left politics focuses on unions so much. Well, it's not because working is like inherently morally good. In fact, in my opinion, working is bad and you should do as little of it as possible.
00:00:36
Speaker
The thing about being a worker is that work is valuable. Being able to take your work away to disrupt big projects, that's real, actual power. And if you get enough workers together in a union, that's power that can challenge the rich, big corporations, and the cronies that they've crammed into government. And we need that power. Labor is a big part of organizing on the left because it has to be. So if you're listening today, I hope you enjoy this chance to learn more about what our union comrades are up to.
Bruce Fafard's Union Journey
00:01:19
Speaker
Our first interview is with Bruce Fafard. He got to start driving truck with Coca-Cola and moved up to being involved in his union, local and the negotiation committee. Eventually he became local president and even president of the Edmonton and district labor council. Now he's an organizer with Unifor and he was just recently part of a successful campaign to organize the Sheridan suites, Eau Claire. And he rules Bruce Fafard. How are you doing? Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. And Bruce, you are an organizer with Unifor out here in Alberta. You are the only organizer out here in Alberta.
00:01:49
Speaker
Yes I am, for Unifor. And the reason why you're here and the reason why we want to chat is because you did just recently get a successful certification at the Sheridan Suites Calgary Eau Claire. You now 170 new members of Unifor.
00:02:05
Speaker
They're working on a contract right now. We're going to get into that and what happened there, how that worked. First of all, I want to know a little bit more about you. I know I ran into you when you were president of the Edmonton District Labor Council, but you have your working class background, right? Absolutely. My working career, I guess, I started back in 1998 with Coca-Cola.
00:02:26
Speaker
through that's a unionized facility as well and now with Unifor so that's where I sort of got my start at and back in probably about 2006 when I really started to get active with things like collective bargaining representation and actually started a few years before that and just started working towards you know being involved a bit more and more and
00:02:52
Speaker
and so that's where I sort of got my starts within Unifor being a local president and then slowly just getting more and more involved. And your dad drove a truck for Coca-Cola too, like you come from a union family, right? Well, my dad actually, he was in the sales. Okay. He was part of it. He was actually always part of management and not necessarily on the union side, but he worked there for over 39 years, so generational worker at Coca-Cola myself, and most of my family worked there at one point in time because, well,
00:03:21
Speaker
Uh, it was a good job And it's it still is a good job, you know with a union contract there. It really helps helps workers out there So that's where it got my start And so you end up, you know started driving a truck at the coca-cola plant you move up within you get interested in the union because of presumably some type of contract negotiation
00:03:41
Speaker
You start getting involved in union politics. You become the president of the local. You get elected to become Edmonton District Labor Council president. Now you are an organizer with Unifor. You're out there organizing new workforces. That's not like a standard journey for workers. You're definitely a trade unionist. You are a labor activist, right?
00:04:02
Speaker
Absolutely. And it comes down to, you know, fair treatment and workers rights. And yeah, so most of my working career, even before that, I've always been a person that's outspoken at the workplace, you know, regardless of having a union or not, but having the union there, you have a voice that actually has heard. So that's, that's what really was the compelling part for, for me to be involved is actually having that say in your work, in your workplace.
00:04:28
Speaker
and not just a say in it going nowhere, having a say with a union makes so much difference. So if the boss is breathing down your neck, you actually have some type of recourse as opposed to just like hoping it changes, right? Exactly, exactly. And you can address it and have it responded to properly, so which is the comforting part. Okay, so one of the things that
Unionized Hotels in Alberta
00:04:50
Speaker
we should talk about and it is really how unions and the working class build power is by organizing new workplaces right and signing up new members and representing these members when it comes to contracts and essentially growing the membership and like I said you just recently got the certification at the
00:05:07
Speaker
the Sheridan Suites in Eau Claire in Calgary. This is the big fancy hotel next to the Eau Claire Market down in Calgary if you're not familiar with it. It's got beautiful lights. It's got a fancy bar. And I mean, you probably spent a bit of time there, I imagine. Absolutely. It has a wonderful restaurant. It has a lounge or a Finn McCool's bar in there. Amazing. You know, it's amazing property, beautifully located right in front of the, like you said, in the Eau Claire district. And basically a real anchor tenant for that area.
00:05:36
Speaker
And this brings us up to a grand total of three and a half unionized hotels in Calgary. We've got Fairmont Palliser, which is the same owner as the Sheridan Suites. We've got the Hilton Garden Inn, which got that very interesting remedial certification when they fired someone for trying to organize.
00:05:53
Speaker
And then the Ramada on Stephen Avenue is like the bar staff or the restaurant staff are unionized or something, right? Yeah, a small group within that hotel is organized. But under Unifor, yeah, we have the Fairmont Palace or now the Sheraton. Sweet. And like, I mean, I mean, not that this is the point of the podcast, but like, man, you go to other cities and there is like, like the hotels are like actually all unionized with the majority of them are unionized. And in Alberta, that is not the case.
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's slim pickings in total role. If you take a look at the whole industry, it is very slim pickings. We do have a few out in the resort areas of Banff and Jasper. Although you're talking about like one here, one there, like the Jasper Park Lodge.
00:06:38
Speaker
uh parts of chateau lake louise and even the bamf springs hotel has some has a small unionized workforce but i like it inside of the the major the major centers uh there's slim pickings and liking places like red deer very there's none but hotels make a lot of sense when it comes to unionization right you've got a lot of workers under one roof you know you've got um people who are at the mercy of management right especially when it comes to like housekeeping or some of those other jobs where
00:07:07
Speaker
you know english might not be their first language or what have you these people are like kind of right to be taken advantage of when it comes to management and and you know i know that there's there's tons of inspiring stories of you know these folks who came up through hotel organizing and that that organizing hotels is like it doable in the modern context it's not like you're trying to organize uber or something right and although there are efforts underway to try and organize those folks too but but
00:07:35
Speaker
But organizing hotels just makes sense. And then, so walk me through it. So you get a phone call. What happens, you get a phone call from someone who works at Sheridan Suites Eau Claire. What is that phone call about? Why are they calling you? And then what's the first step? How do you go from there?
00:07:51
Speaker
Well that is actually the first step when people say when they call me and start talking about unionization they ask I always ask what is the first step and I tell them you have just made the first step making that contact with any union that's the first step and typically for myself have a quick conversation just trying to find out
How Does Union Organizing Begin?
00:08:10
Speaker
Who are you? What's going on? The working conditions to have a brief conversation and then typically meet face to face with with that person and trying to have a few other people involved with organizing campaigns. Campaigns, the best campaigns that that are successful come from inside organizing
00:08:31
Speaker
And when I say inside organizing, I mean the workers on the inside, banding together and organizing with the, obviously the assistance of different unions or a person like myself, guiding them through the process and to sign cards. So why do they call you? What's the reason for them reaching out to you? They're like, things are getting so bad that I need to call up Bruce Fafard, they don't know your name, but they need, I need to call up a union and get some help here. What's the like reason, what were the conditions at the Sheridan Suisseau Claire that they were reaching out to you?
00:09:00
Speaker
Typically, the reasons why people make that first phone call, and specifically for the Sheraton, it was respect. That is usually one or two on the list of reasons why. First, respect, and second, working conditions.
00:09:20
Speaker
Those, they're tied together so much is that, you know, the great working conditions, but if you're not respected in the workplace, it's very difficult to work there or your working conditions. So specifically for the Sheraton, it was, the hotel, well just a brief history, the hotel was open in 99. And so it's 20 year anniversary just this past February for the Sheraton.
00:09:43
Speaker
And part of the organizing drive, we had people who were hired at the start of the opening of the hotel, some original employees who seen over the years the change and more recently just the degradation of the workplace as in working conditions and treatment. Those are the two biggest things in why people call is the working conditions and the treatment that they're receiving.
00:10:11
Speaker
So when you say working conditions, you're talking about, you know, under staffing or people being asked to do more on less time or people being asked to work over their breaks. Like, is that the type of stuff that you're talking about? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Working through breaks there. That was very common that they felt the workers were doing.
00:10:27
Speaker
working through the breaks working after they have punched out believe it or not yeah working for free basically wage theft wage theft it yeah it absolutely is wage theft and that was that was an issue for for a bunch of the workers mainly in the housekeeping department where people were swiping out going back upstairs and finishing off their work for the day and they felt powerless to just to stop that
00:10:53
Speaker
They really felt powerless to stop that and didn't stop until the union drive started. As soon as the hotel found out about the union drive, they started doing a little more investigation as into why is this happening? Why are people signing union cards? And it's a very typical reaction of employers to do is start asking the questions. What's going on? What's happening? And as they found out, so yeah, they had people working off the clock to get the job done, which is obviously
00:11:22
Speaker
Like you said, it's wage theft. It's putting their hands inside of a worker's pocket and just taking money out, basically. Okay, so walk me through a bit more through the hotel itself. You're talking about 170 workers, but what's the breakdown between restaurant staff versus housekeeping versus the people at the front desk?
00:11:42
Speaker
Actually, the number is actually closer to 200. Okay.
Inside Worker Organizing
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah, we finally got the final numbers and just around 200. The majority of the staff and say a quarter of them work in the housekeeping department. That is typically your biggest apartment inside of a hotel, only followed by the banquets. Those are the two largest and then you have your kitchen and food and beverage staff and then you'll have the numbers.
00:12:07
Speaker
If you're still going to look straight numbers, then you'll have like your office's men or your front desk sort of service. And when you're talking about housekeepers in the banquet and serving staff, we're talking about women, we're talking about young people, we're talking about people of color for the most part.
00:12:22
Speaker
For the most part like for the Sheraton yeah, it's all work is the color within the uh Housekeeping department definitely and predominantly in the banquets as well. I would say that's that is the majority and a lot of them are first canadians new canadians and uh That that's uh the jobs that they're able to to get at the moment. Okay, so You know, you've got the tip you've started to have this conversation with people maybe you've drawn in a few uh, you know handful of other people who are interested in the drive
00:12:51
Speaker
Like what comes next? What's the next step in that process? Well, after after you have that first initial conversation,
00:12:58
Speaker
Typically, I see myself, I go into the field and meet with them directly. Typically, is that one person or try to meet a group of people? Because we try to form like inside group committees, try to have that support basis on the inside. Within those like separate job descriptions, right? Exactly. Once you try to get someone from every department, if possible, sometimes it's not. But there's always ways of overcoming obstacles like that.
00:13:24
Speaker
And so you're starting to have these meetings. I mean, ultimately, at some part of the process, you're getting people to sign cards, right? And you've built a list of people who you think might support you and you start approaching them, from what I understand, right? Yes. You can put in those terms.
00:13:42
Speaker
you try to get a list of names try to get as many as people on a list so you know what your what your numbers are because with the certification process you have to know your percentages when filing an application and then try to project out obviously now with the change of labor laws the vote which is very important
00:14:03
Speaker
And some of the strategies that you use very much very same strategies using on a political campaign, especially when it comes to, you know, get out the geo TV and on that aspect. But you have to have key people inside. And that's, that's what makes a drive.
00:14:19
Speaker
could be, you know, successful or not is those inside people and the support that you give them and explaining like the full process. So yeah, you meet with a bunch of with a group of people and try to have all all areas covered as in try to have someone who will be able to reach out to the full the banquet department. If it's big, you get a couple people doing it.
00:14:40
Speaker
If there's only one person in the front desk, you get that person, you know, to reach out to those workers. And you try to systematically go through every department of the, of the employer, to try to find those people exactly who would and document and record who you've spoken to and all those, all those type of things. Just like, almost like, like I said, a political campaign. So you're identifying and cultivating leaders who are working at this place, and then you're training them, you're giving them the tools to go out and talk to
00:15:08
Speaker
their own coworkers about why they should sign a card and then you're getting as many people as you can to sign cards, right? Absolutely. And that's the process. It's one of our biggest tasks is information and trying to get the right information out there, the correct information and not any information that
00:15:27
Speaker
is dubious and try to dispel myths that may be put out there. Because you always have a reaction from the employer if they find out about a union drive. And typically in most drives, employers do find out about it because people talk and people are excited about it or nervous and a little bit of everything. So you have to plan out for those eventualities as well. Well, that's the natural next question is what did this employer do to fight this union drive?
Sheraton Suites Success Story
00:15:55
Speaker
Well, what type of misinformation did they put out there?
00:15:58
Speaker
Some of the misinformation, they try to leave as many open-ended questions or they put things out there. Would you rather have your own money in your pocket or have the union take your money and the amount of money? Overall, my initial reaction to a lot of what the Sheraton, I guess the management or the ownership put forward,
00:16:21
Speaker
It was a bit late and it wasn't as ferocious as I thought it could be because Invest, they're very familiar with unions. Invest Hotels owns Sheraton Suites Eau Claire. They also own the Palliser Hotel, which is unionized facility and many other properties that are unionized. So they are familiar with the process.
00:16:42
Speaker
Sounds like you should unionize more of their hotels, Bruce. Well, there's opportunities and all you need is that one phone call. Just may give me that one phone call and then we can take it from there. But they didn't rat fuck you to all to death is what you're saying. They were. No, no. And I was expecting a bit more of a pushback.
00:16:58
Speaker
But it wasn't there, and through inside information, through some of the workers who have good relationships with some of the management there, at no point did they, in my view, knew how far we had progressed in such a short period of time. Because from day one of assigning a card to the certification, it was just under three months.
00:17:25
Speaker
So it was fast. Campaigns can move fast. They can move slow. Although this one moved at a very good pace. We had committed people and there was ready to sign cards and the thirst was there. And it was a big success, right? What were the final counts as far as people who signed a card, people who voted yes in the certification?
00:17:44
Speaker
The final vote came out about 150 people voted and we got two thirds of that. Nice. And you only needed 50 plus one to get a certification. Exactly. Exactly. So now the fine folks, fine workers at Sheridan, Suites, Eau Claire and Calgary are certified as a union. They've gone through the process. They've signed the cards. They've had the election.
00:18:05
Speaker
Now Unifor is representing them officially according to labor law and according to the labor relations board, but now comes an important next step, right?
Challenges of First Union Contracts
00:18:13
Speaker
Negotiations. Starting off to try to get that first collective agreement. So at the moment, yeah, we're in just the process of electing a bargain committee because within Unifor, our model is the workers they do, they're the ones that matter. They're the ones that will be sitting at the table with the help of a national rep.
00:18:32
Speaker
And anything that's proposed comes directly from them. So we're busy going through, you know, proposal, have some proposal meetings, get some meetings just to get the ideas from the workers. You know, we're doing bargaining surveys and as well election of the bargaining committee. And this is like the real, like this is where employers might go, whatever, the union is going to unionize it. But this is where really recalcitrant employers can kind of like rag the puck
00:19:00
Speaker
And fuck around with workers is in this kind of like first contract phase, right? It's yeah it It's it's a time where uh You don't have a lot of uh, I guess rights to imp to Make or force the employer to do certain things because you don't have a contract. There's nothing in writing. So there's it's a bit of a
00:19:27
Speaker
period limbo, you know, you're in limbo at this moment. And it's a it's a bit of a tough time for workers actually right now, because there's a lot of unknowns, what's going to be happening and what's been going on. You try to relay that as much as possible, but it is a trying time. Although it's a
00:19:42
Speaker
It's an encouraging time because once the workers start putting everything forward and actually having people that they know sitting at the bargaining table, advocating on their behalf, that's a very powerful thing when they know that, yes, my voice is counting and I can say this directly to my employer. So you were next to these workers. You were in the middle of this drive. You were talking with them a lot.
00:20:06
Speaker
You know, what do you think in the context of this negotiation for the first contract? What do you think is going to come up that is going to be that is going to be a part of the negotiation? How is Unifor going to make their lives better? How is how is this collective bargaining process going to improve the lot of these workers? How are they going to be treated with more dignity? When you get that collective agreements, you have rules, you have language inside of an agreement that obligates the employer to respond.
00:20:36
Speaker
And further that the response that you do get if you don't agree with it, you can Challenge it even further But I think the biggest thing is making Having that collective agreement is holding the employer responsible to the terms and conditions And I think that's that's the biggest key to it is the ability And have the backing of a union to enforce your rights because you can have all the rights in the world if you're not going to enforce them
00:21:04
Speaker
Doesn't matter because right now you have like most like workers have A lot of rights under the employment standards code, but it's being able to enforce those rights and that's what that's what happening union does is actually enables you to uh enforce your rights that you do have either it's in a collective agreement or just uh within part of the employment standards or any type of labor law right now you you it's so difficult for an individual to try to challenge that
00:21:32
Speaker
within a collective agreement when the unionized workforce, you have that ability. You have the opportunity to have your grievances settled. Have your say in the workplace. Have your say in the workplace.
Beyond Wages: Union Benefits
00:21:46
Speaker
And then he goes right down to negotiations, being able to put things into a collective agreement that the workers want and to be able to be heard in that sort of, and having that collective voice. That's, that's the main key is having that collective voice with the backing of the union.
00:21:58
Speaker
I mean, this is why you get a union, right? Beyond the, you know, we can talk about the weekend or the eight hour day or child labor. I mean, I think those battles are kind of like out of the brains of most people these days and union density in Alberta is not great, right? But when you're talking about why a union or how a union can improve your life and how it can improve the conditions of your workplace,
00:22:19
Speaker
it's not necessarily the wages, as you were saying, right? Like it's wages are important, but fundamentally it allows people to democratic say in how work actually happens, right? And that seems to be one of the most important things. Absolutely. And, you know, as, as workplaces change, and not necessarily, because, you know, the Sheraton is actually a great example.
00:22:42
Speaker
Hotels open 99 we have people who work there from from the start and Over the years like they said they seen degradation in their working conditions either it's systematic from like direct from the owners and employers or more often than not it's from the supervisors or from the management the the frontline managers is where really things can go wrong and
00:23:11
Speaker
If you're there for 20 you've been working in place for 20 years and you get a manager in or a supervisor That's uh, it's not up to snuff, you know treats people like you know dirt and that sort of thing That's a tough thing to deal with and without a union
00:23:26
Speaker
You are stuck. It's bosses Fiat, right? Yeah, exactly. If you're there, if you're there for 20 years, if you put 20 years in your life in this place, and some jackass comes along and you know, abruptly changes all everything that's going on. And not necessarily in a way of, we're doing this for the company of the good, good or the company or anything like that. It's more of a
00:23:46
Speaker
some management personal preferences, you know Personality clashes and so the other employees have been there like for 20 years and all of a sudden so they bring in someone like that It's a tough place to work at and why should this employee have to all of a sudden? Well, if you don't like the job change somewhere else, that's not the answer Well, if you're a 20 year employee exactly, right? Well, like we were talking about with post media, which is that like
00:24:10
Speaker
They're changing everything around. There's a drastic internal shakeup at post media. Now there's one guy who's going to be responsible for all the coverage, all the political news coverage across Canada with a very clear mandate for management that it has to be not just conservative, but more conservative.
00:24:27
Speaker
And, you know, explicitly mentioned in that Canada land article that it kind of does the whole expose on this is that in the context of like Vancouver, the Vancouver sun and province, those are unionized workplaces in that Kevin Laban might just can't just walk in there and tell those people how to do their jobs, because there's a contract in place that says, well, no, actually, like, this is this is the this is the division of labor here.
00:24:47
Speaker
Absolutely. You have the terms and conditions of employment. It's a contract. And so as someone like that, wouldn't be able to just, you know, come in and same with any, any other work, unionized workplaces. That's why it's important to have those conditions in, uh, in writing. So, I mean, I think finally here, uh, the question is how do we unionize more hotels in Alberta and how do you, how do you get more tips and how do, you know, workers find out about how a union can improve, you know, their, their lives and their workplace?
00:25:17
Speaker
That's a great question. Great question. Easy answer. I don't have an easy answer to that. Yeah.
Future of Hotel Unionization
00:25:26
Speaker
Well, here, if you know someone. Success breeds success, too.
00:25:31
Speaker
Stones throw away from the Sheraton is the Weston Hotel and They're aware of its workers from there are aware that the Sheraton Suites has unionized Will something come over that they're quite possibly but we'll wait and see if it does but yeah, it's just talking to people It's making it's it's convincing people just to make that first phone call because there's so many unanswered questions that people have about what it means or how do you do it or how things will eventually turn out and
00:25:59
Speaker
that it's just that first question. Make that phone call and see where it goes. Alright folks, you heard it here. If you need to democratize your workplace, make your life better, give Unifor and Bruce Faffer a call. Alright, well thanks so much for coming in, Bruce. I really appreciate you taking the time to come and chat with us.
00:26:19
Speaker
Thanks so much to Bruce for doing that interview, we really appreciate it. Our next interview is with Saba Masagazi. She's a union organizer with United Food and Commercial Workers 401. She was also just recently part of a successful certification campaign of security guards at the Calgary Airport, and also a very exciting raid of CLAC. To learn what that actually means, let's cut to our chat with this amazing union organizer.
Saba Masagazi and UFCW Local 401
00:26:41
Speaker
Saba Masagazi, welcome to The Progress Report. Perfect timing for me, you got a mouth full of water, but
00:26:48
Speaker
Um, by way of introduction, Savva, uh, where do you work and what do you do there?
00:26:53
Speaker
I work for UFCW Local 401, United Food and Commercial Workers. It's a union, a retail union. I think we're the largest in the province now. Largest private sector union? Yeah, largest private sector with 32,000 members in Alberta. And I am, I think, technically a senior labor relations officer, but for real, I'm an organizer.
00:27:20
Speaker
So you are a union organizer in the flesh here in the Progress Alberta dimly lit basement recording studio. So we're setting up this episode as kind of like a labor for noobs primer. People who know that organized labor is good, don't cross picket lines, that kind of thing. But don't necessarily know the details of how and why labor is good.
00:27:42
Speaker
organize or build power and find new members. And so I guess my first question to you is like, what do you think like regular folks need to know about unions?
00:27:52
Speaker
Ah, that's a very big question. I think the main thing to remember is it's about empowerment and creating a more balanced power dynamic in the workplace. When you're an individual person trying to approach your employer, especially if it's a big one with lots of money is really scary and to, you know,
00:28:22
Speaker
Not everybody even knows the law and doesn't know their rights and so doesn't know when their employer may be breaking them. So I think, I don't know, labor is good. Labor is good folks. You heard it here first. Unions are good. So I'm a bit more curious about UFCW 401. Say it's the biggest private sector union in Alberta, 32,000 members. What are the biggest contracts? What are the biggest chunk of members? What are they doing?
00:28:51
Speaker
Well, we're primarily and traditionally retail, so superstore, Safeway, that kind of thing. In the camps, in the oil field sector, we're housekeeping and kitchen staff. We have a couple hotels, a couple restaurants. Traditionally, we're dealing with people who are the lowest on the pay scale.
00:29:15
Speaker
And so that means we're, you know, we got to be big with dignity and respect and having language that means a little bit more than just money. Although we still try to fight for that money too.
00:29:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think those are the big players. We try to do whatever it is that is the right thing to do. So if there is somebody who comes along who wants to organize their workplace for a specifically egregious reason, we're usually quick to jump on those.
00:29:54
Speaker
Yeah, anything that's not wouldn't fall into AP and QP essentially anything that's like not government or healthcare or even though we do have a few home care units as well. We're a bit diverse in that way. But yeah, biggest players I would say are probably super short and safe way that people know the most.
00:30:20
Speaker
So you talked a bit about people reaching out to you. Someone reached out to you recently from Calgary Airport, right? Can you tell us about that recent organizing drive, like who it was and how it worked and all that stuff?
Calgary Airport Security Guards
00:30:33
Speaker
Yeah, I wasn't there for the initial call, but essentially the security guards at the Calgary International Airport wanted representation. Beyond that, they sort of, you know, wanted to know what their places, what their rights were, if it was okay, the things that were happening to them, the way their bosses were speaking to them, that sort of thing. And it sort of was happening. What were the reasons that caused the
00:31:01
Speaker
yeah it's you know and it's honestly it has a lot to do with most of our calls besides you know benefits is usually a big thing um dignity and respect issues so just basically having someone to call somewhere to go to to sort of
00:31:18
Speaker
mitigate these quote-unquote open door open door managers because that that stuff can be very scary especially if you're a newcomer or if you've simply just you know haven't had to deal with the law because you had great bosses in the past you know so
00:31:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's usually how it starts. It was a hot call. Then we try to investigate and see if is this an individual person's problem or is this a workplace problem? And, you know, we found it was the latter was a workplace issue and people
00:31:57
Speaker
were willing and they really stuck it out because it was a very long process but um you know they made their choice so and you're the organizer here but it's really the like workers who are doing a lot of the actual organizing of course yes i mean we rely a lot on on the people on the inside
00:32:14
Speaker
especially in this circumstance, I mean, a lot of the times, you know, I've organized other security guards in the past. There are areas I can't go to, I can't access, I can't reach. So there are people I physically cannot go to the workplace and just, you know, hey, anybody want to sign a union card? That's not how those kinds of things work. It really takes a lot of initiative from the people on the inside and really wanting it because
00:32:46
Speaker
I'm going to rely on them to sort of push their coworkers along and get their coworkers on side. Because if they're not, we're not here to sell anything. They either want to be a part of the union or they don't. How many folks are we talking about at this particular time? About 130, something around there.
00:33:06
Speaker
You know, you've got this tip, you've got this hot call, as I call it, and you've got people organizing in the workplace signing union cards. Not signing union cards in the workplace, but yes. Of course, yes, never. But I'm curious about what this particular employer did to fight the process, right? I imagine they were like, yay, a union has shown up and started organizing. Like, what were the tactics that they used? Right. I mean, it's the typical anti-union rhetoric
00:33:36
Speaker
Most big, larger companies, and ASB is a larger company, they're based out of Ontario, have their brief, have their lawyer draw up exactly what it is, the line that they can walk, and what they can say.
00:33:53
Speaker
Because they're allowed to have their opinion. They're just not allowed to threaten, intimidate, promise. You know, it depends on, you know, can you prove it's a lie? There's a lot of onus on the union to sort of prove these things are happening.
00:34:18
Speaker
even though they're done behind closed doors. So to have a manager pull you aside and say, hey, I need to talk to you. It's really, really scary. It's very frightening and you've got to have people who are strong and already ready to go. And, you know, we'd talked about it before. Be prepared.
00:34:40
Speaker
They're going to cry, they're going to promise, they're going to threaten, they're going to do whatever it is that they think it's going to work in a way that is discreet enough that hopefully they don't get in trouble for it.
00:34:56
Speaker
And this process has a name, right, of inoculation of the people who are gonna be facing this. Yeah, yeah, we try to inoculate everybody and just prepare them. I worked on this really, really tiny unit recently, and that was something that really came up was, hey, there are so few of you. I know this is gonna create a huge chilling effect. Please be ready, be ready. This is a family business. They're going to love bomb you, or they are going to
00:35:26
Speaker
I've been in places where the manager cries and I was like, why didn't you give us a chance and bring these issues to us? We have an open door policy. So it's really important to prepare people before because you're used to seeing your boss in a certain light. When you see them in a more intimate way like that, sometimes it has a really great effect.
00:35:53
Speaker
All right, and this Security Guard certification was different than most certifications that UFCW-401 does, because at an airport it was a federal certification.
Federal vs. Provincial Certification
00:36:03
Speaker
So what's the difference there? A lot. So provincially, we're used to doing provincial certificates. We're used to doing certificates that if they're not for the city, then they're for the province.
00:36:17
Speaker
we don't usually cross out of the province and when you cross the province lines you go into federal but also if you're in you know communications or if you're in an airport so nobody's really done a federal search since the 90s so we were kind of it was a learning experience for sure for me because I've never dealt with the Canadian industrial
00:36:41
Speaker
Labor Relations Board So it was very interesting but essentially the big difference right now is that in in Alberta we do not have car check and Federally we do so That's mainly in organizing is the biggest difference and what is
00:37:01
Speaker
It basically means, so in Alberta right now, what the law is, is you sign petitions. So you get at least 40% of the workforce to sign petitions saying that you want a vote to say whether or not you want a union.
00:37:19
Speaker
um the issue with that is essentially you're voting twice so first you say no i want a union and then the labor board orders a vote for maybe 10 days later could be longer i've been on that have been longer um and
00:37:38
Speaker
Then in that between time, you know, who knows who gets raises and who gets promotions and who gets fired and who gets all of a sudden hours cut and and all of a sudden closer. Exactly. So you have a period of time for the employer to play all sorts of games.
00:37:55
Speaker
Um, which, uh, you know, usually means there's a huge drop off in our support because, you know, at the end of the day, if we lose the, you know, the campaign, I'm not paying their rent. I'm not buying the groceries for their kids. So if they are terminated, yes, we can deal with it and yes, we can get, you know, something for them if it was deemed illegal, but it's going to be nine months from now, a year from now, whenever the board can order it. Right. So yeah.
00:38:25
Speaker
So this was a card check certification. So essentially when you do card check you buy a union card. So the board sees that's the buy-in like that's them saying they really want it. You buy a union card and once you get enough people to buy union cards the place becomes automatically certified if the board deems you've met the threshold.
00:38:53
Speaker
Which is what, 50% plus one? It's 50% plus one federally and provincially it was until very recently 65%.
00:39:02
Speaker
Well, and I think that brings up another question, which is, like, Karchek, whether you know about Karchek or not, you kind of have to be in the labor weeds. But governments, specifically conservative governments, all across Canada, one of the very first things they do when they win elections is they get rid of Karchek. Of course. We saw it in B.C. with the B.C. Liberals in the early 2000s. We saw it in Manitoba just recently when Pallister won, what was it, like, three years ago. We saw it, I think, when brought in some form of, she brought in, like, a kind of a
00:39:32
Speaker
Really crappy variety different type of car check But there were still some types of car check in Ontario once Doug Ford came in immediately all gone I think except for construction and then yes the Albert NDP brought in car check. Mm-hmm and Jason Kenny wins built What is bill to bill to right after getting rid of the carbon tax by my car check by my car check and and like car check is essentially how all union organizing used to work until like the 80s, right and
00:39:59
Speaker
And it was like conservative governments were like, oh, our buddies in the corporate sector are telling us, throw up this roadblock and make it a little harder for them to organize. And everyone kind of has complied. And there's only a card check and a handful of provinces these days.
00:40:18
Speaker
Like from your perspective, do you like organizing via card check or would you would you or do you like the two-step process? Like as an on the ground person doing this kind of work like what's your take on it? I think as like me myself I'm obviously card check card check card check, but I know other locals in other circumstances where They might not necessarily want that just because the the form of momentum or the sort of campaign that they're planning to run
00:40:49
Speaker
Maybe they would like petitions because that way you can sort of gauge your... What's the word I'm looking for? Support. Gauge your support, your level of support, differently and especially if they plan on having a prolonged campaign.
00:41:09
Speaker
For myself, I think Card Check is great for obvious reasons, but one, we're talking about 65% of the workforce, and we don't submit that 65%. We make sure we go above, and that's the same thing with petitions. We're not going in with 40% or 45%.
00:41:30
Speaker
We're going in with more than that because we want to have that cushion, especially for when the employer is able to have access to the employees and create that chilling effect by trying to go after the key people involved or the key people in organizing the workforce.
00:41:54
Speaker
All right, well, okay, so now we know kind of what card check is. Yes. I think it's worth also talking about the arguments used in the media and in like the discourse by kind of corporate bootlicker types to agitate against card
Arguments Against Union Certification
00:42:08
Speaker
check, right? And how they frame it. Because if you're not a part of this, if you're not organizing workplaces or if you're not a part of the like anti-union industrial complex, which is quite large,
00:42:18
Speaker
this might not mean anything to you. And so when you see a column from some random columnist in the newspaper or online talking about, you know, workplace democracy or whatever, I think it's worth talking about. So the article we have to discuss today is by our friend, friend of the show, Alicia Corbella.
00:42:38
Speaker
This is in the Calgary Herald. The headline is Corbella, colon, workers celebrate return of private ballot vote for union certification. I'm sure, yes, workers everywhere rejoiced at this extremely arcane bit of labor law. Celebrating in the streets. Yeah, there was ticket day parades. Okay, so this is how she sets it off.
00:43:04
Speaker
A private ballot vote, not trickery. That's what will be required for Alberta workers to form a union once legislation under Bill 2, the Open for Business Act, becomes law in Alberta. Okay, and then she kind of gets into some details around this union certification that happened on a construction site where they actually dared to use card check.
00:43:27
Speaker
This is where we get into quotes from an anonymous worker who's not named. All right. This is good news for people like me. One of the tricked workers said Tuesday, I heard that law that made me feel like a fool, like a powerless fool is going to be changed. And I think that's good. Said the worker who asked to remain anonymous out of fear of union retaliation.
00:43:51
Speaker
this Say the last the say the quote the last quote the last line
00:43:58
Speaker
I heard that law that made me feel like a fool, like a powerless fool. Like a powerless fool. That sounds like something that someone, a human would say, right? Made me feel like a fool, a powerless fool. You signed a union card, yeah. That sounds super real and like from a person who said it and quoted it to a journalist. He says he was tricked into signing a union card back in late 2017, caused him much stress and ultimately led to smaller paychecks somehow.
00:44:31
Speaker
What happened was members of Local 1111 of the Construction and Specialized Workers Union, which has since been taken over by Local 92, approached workers with Icon West Construction at their work site in downtown Calgary. Some workers who had previously worked for the union were told that they owed as much as $250 in past dues, but that the union had a promotion, and if they paid $2, their debt to the union would be wiped out, so they paid their tuning and signed a card.
00:44:53
Speaker
Again, there's no like proof of any of this. Yeah, I don't know if this went to the labor board. I mean presumably actually no actually not presumably She frames it as people being duped into if you went to the labor board, I'm sure she would have said that yeah One laborer told post media at the time that their income dropped from $20 per hour to $25 37 as a result of the union certification and
00:45:18
Speaker
They were complaining about union dues. Bill 2 will restore the mandatory secret ballot for all union certification votes and return a 90-day period for unions to provide evidence of employee support for certification. The laborer, another anonymous source, who also didn't want to be named, ended up having to find employment at another non-union shop just to make ends meet.
00:45:40
Speaker
uh then they they quote the construction manager this is a great quote blake leeu the construction manager for icon which is almost finished building the telesky building at center street and seventh avenue said being forced to pay every worker the same wasn't good for anyone really bro wasn't good for anyone wow
00:46:02
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I mean, this is like kind of classic Lisa Corbella, just corporate boot licking stuff. I mean, aside from licking Jason Kenney's boots, she's also kind of firmly anti-union, obviously. Like, this was one in a series of articles she wrote about this, like, this construction union certification duped.
00:46:24
Speaker
She then goes on to quote Dwayne Choman, who is a labor and employment lawyer with Newman-Thompson. He goes on to say that Bill, too, is great. A drastically unsurprising from a labor side lawyer. Anyways, I think that's all I've been stomach. But I think the secret ballot is how they frame it, right? When you look at how they try to frame why Karchek is bad, it's like, oh,
00:46:53
Speaker
the secret ballot is such an important foundational part of democracy, that it also needs to be a part of the union certification. And that's like a very compelling argument kind of like on the surface, if you don't think about it too hard.
00:47:06
Speaker
But they're not talking about workplace democracy in the context of respect to the workplace or wages. The only time that workplace democracy matters to these people is in the context of a secret ballot. We really need a secret ballot, and that card check is undemocratic. And so that is one of the big ones, I think, that we need to keep an eye out for.
00:47:26
Speaker
And I also, I mean, that portion that lots of people who are proponents of getting rid of crowd check is the proof, the fact that the union can't prove a support where, you know, regardless, either way you're providing proof to the board, you're just not providing proof to the employer. We're not outing people who support the union. That's what they want.
00:47:54
Speaker
That's what they're referring to as proof and evidence. You send the petitions to the board. The board has access to that. You send the cards when you have a card check to the board and provide proof of payment and all that to the board.
00:48:11
Speaker
I think essentially when we're talking about the ballot, we're talking about voting twice. And you're asking people to put their necks on the line against what? Against who? It could be a huge heavy, you know, these kinds of delays in between only serve one group of people and it's not the workforce.
00:48:34
Speaker
Exactly. All right, so I think card check is good. More card check, please. Yes, card check, please. Yes, card check,
CLAC and Its Impact
00:48:41
Speaker
yes, card check. Okay, the other big bit of news on the kind of UFCW front is that you and your colleagues are currently organizing a maple leaf chicken processing plant. Yes. And you're not just organizing any old maple leaf chicken processing plant, but one where the workers are currently represented by CLAC. Sabah, what is CLAC?
00:49:01
Speaker
I think their acronym is Christian Labor Association of Canada or something like that. They are a very old organization that pretends to be a union. I don't know how else to say it, but they have all the rights of a union. They do all sorts of union like things like sign and negotiate contracts.
00:49:23
Speaker
without doing the rest of the stuff like having a bargaining committee that isn't comprised of management or having employees ratify their contract so actually vote on their contract and they're really big fans of
00:49:40
Speaker
doing the hey management let's bargain just me and you and You know you get kind of the manager gets whatever they want It's it's a way for management to get what they want and make sure that their place won't actually unionize their company
00:49:57
Speaker
Yes, yes. It's a company and it's a way, as you said, it's a way for management to essentially like take up space, block an actual union from showing up at their workplace. Yes, and organizing them. And having CLAC kind of show up and just sign a contract, fill that space, and then it's much harder for a union to actually organize that workplace, right?
00:50:18
Speaker
You know, CLAC is mostly in the construction industry from what I understand, but they are extremely opportunistic and whenever an employer kind of approaches them. Yeah, they'll take whatever. They'll take oil camps. They'll take whatever somebody in any company comes to them with a voluntary recognition. They'll take it.
00:50:38
Speaker
And what does that mean, voluntary recognition? It means basically they don't have to go through the process of traditionally organizing, like I was discussing earlier, of getting petitions signed and submitting them. The employer can just essentially say, hey, this is your work site. You can unionize these people. These people are yours. We're voluntary letting you have this site. Management essentially lays over dead.
00:51:05
Speaker
Yeah. It says here, here you go. Here's the site. This is the contract we want. And then they say, okay. And then that's, that's how that goes. And so to get back to Maple Leaf for a second, this is a big plan. This is a, chickens are coming in on giant ass trucks every day, slaughtered and processed into various chicken products. Yeah.
00:51:25
Speaker
We're talking about four or five hundred people. Yes. We're talking like a mostly like immigrant. Yes. We're like, yes, yes. First, second generation. Yeah, primarily. Yeah.
00:51:38
Speaker
Right now there's around 500 of these workers at this chicken processing plant represented by CLAC, but UFCW is trying to raid them. UFCW is trying to organize them for themselves. And what does that mean? How does that even work?
UFCW's Campaign at Maple Leaf
00:51:49
Speaker
So is there like, from what I understand our previous conversations, there's like a period of time where you can kind of approach workers, get them to sign a card. Can you kind of walk me through that? So there's something called the open period. It's a space and time essentially where the contract, the contract that they have in place has expired.
00:52:07
Speaker
And it's the space where essentially anybody could come in and organize. Any old person could come, just reek, reek, reek, reek, reek, reek, tip, tap, tip, tap, over and organize during that period. It's a very, I think this time, this period was like three weeks. It was a very short period of time where we had to get our tux in a row. But it's very hard to do. It takes a lot of people because it's a lot of people.
00:52:37
Speaker
it's because it's such a short period of time it's called an open period and um really we don't raid you know really um but nobody really considers it raiding when it's clock um no other union considers it raiding when it's clock so please go raid clack yeah they're not any open period
00:52:57
Speaker
just go for it if it's in your if it's in your wheelhouse like if it's in your unions this is for mostly people who are in labor obviously but if it's in your wheelhouse just let track their open period go in and go after every anytime you can
00:53:14
Speaker
And so that's what you guys did at, that's what UFCW401 did at this plant. Yes, but that was mostly because we had calls and we had people who were over there that we knew who were like, you guys need to come here. What were their, what were their issues? Why were they calling?
00:53:29
Speaker
Well, primarily benefits, um, you know, and, um, and dignity and respect issues. Um, we're talking about a plant. There's a lot of people all working together and at the same time, essentially there's, there's staggered shifts, but, um, when breaks are there breaks, you know what I mean? Um, and then, um, there's the bathroom break issue, uh, which was a really high, um,
00:53:59
Speaker
Really a source of contention there because It's unsanitary. It's it's an issue that we have run into in the past It's an issue that happens at most meat processing plants Or at least most that I or some that I've heard of these people aren't getting bathroom breaks
00:54:19
Speaker
People are not getting enough bathroom breaks or having their bathroom breaks limited or essentially, you know, you get this many and you have to sign out every time you go to the bathroom and you have to sign back in when you come to the bathroom and people are shitting and pissing themselves off.
00:54:34
Speaker
Well, that's what happened in the Brooks plant before we unionized it. And that was one of the main issues that people were soiling themselves on the plant floor. Obviously a health and safety issue. Obviously not great for the food that you're putting out.
00:54:53
Speaker
But also, we're talking about almost 500 people. If everybody go to the bathroom at the exact same time, not everybody gets to go to the bathroom. So besides, benefits obviously is a huge thing for people and usually don't really get great ones unless you bargain them. So that's obviously an issue, especially when you have a family and primarily people who work there all have families. And they've worked there for years and years.
00:55:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's a place with not a lot of high turnover meat plants usually. People stay there for a long period of time. And, you know, we have a lot of language regarding that and how it's inhumane.
00:55:37
Speaker
And right now, these Maple Leaf employees have two sick days a year, which I don't know about you, but don't want sick people making my chicken that also goes to KFC that also could go to essentially anywhere because it's Maple Leaf, right? So it's a huge company. So it's gross. It's gross in a physically gross way, but it's also gross in a moral way.
00:56:06
Speaker
ethical way, right, yes. And it's so shitty that Clack will not grieve this issue. There is no way to grieve this issue. They will not go to arbitration. They will not fight it. I've never heard of them filing a grievance at this plant. I've heard of the stewards, the shop stewards there being asked to do the initial investigation. The shop steward goes in, has a meeting with manager at closed door.
00:56:35
Speaker
and comes out with basically what the manager said. If you are paying dues and you're not getting representation, what is the fucking point? Yeah.
00:56:47
Speaker
And this is a, I mean, the fact that it's a maple leaf meat processing plant, there's a bit of history there with UFCW 401 as well. You were talking about the Brooks plants. These were these huge federally certified beef slaughterhouses and pork slaughterhouses in Brooks, Alberta, right?
History of Meat Plant Unionizing
00:57:03
Speaker
And there were these big union drives in the eighties and nineties to get these things unionized up and it became extremely contentious. And it's actually one of the like,
00:57:13
Speaker
most cool bits of labor history in like Alberta, recent memory. So if you are, you know, on the internet googling around, I would recommend you look that up. I think there's a movie about it, a documentary, but if you look it up, but it's, it's, it is very interesting. All the sort of stuff, it stirred up for the province, not only that work site and you know, same circumstances were different part of the world.
00:57:40
Speaker
primarily East African employees and for that time period. So we're talking about first, second generation again. I think Maple Leaf Land is more like second, first, second, third, but yeah. And Clack isn't operating on its own too. Like one thing I think is worth mentioning is that Clack operates in the context of a pretty huge like anti-union industry, right?
00:58:11
Speaker
estimated it'd be around billions of dollars a year spent on keeping unions out of workplaces you know we're talking about um so CLAC is the like union quote unquote union that is um a part of this ecosystem but you've got groups like merit contractors which is essentially the like construction association of what they call open shop workers you've got the progressive contractors which can very similar you've got the organization called labor watch um which does a lot of like anti-union propaganda stuff you know you've got
00:58:42
Speaker
fields, literal fields of lawyers who work on the employer side of labor law. McLennan Ross being an especially popular one and who has an especially robust anti-union kind of practice. Funnily enough, a bunch of
00:58:58
Speaker
McClendon Ross employees just got appointed to. I heard. Congratulations. I heard various university and post-secondary boards. Yeah. What a great environment for them to be in. Yeah.
00:59:21
Speaker
I was in a hearing like two weeks ago where I made a really great joke that I was drinking tap water and the manager employer thought it was hilarious. Yeah, there is so much money behind anti-union everything.
The Anti-Union Industry
00:59:46
Speaker
Yeah, if you guys wanted to get into that you guys should you would get so many grants um, but This is well, this is part of a plan, right? We're we're gonna we're gonna become rebel media people we're gonna become anti-union people and we're gonna cash in Yeah, we're just playing the long game here. Yeah. Yeah. Um Okay, so I think the broader question of like the anti-union industrial complex is like
01:00:10
Speaker
something I think we definitely should dive into in a later episode. We're kind of coming to the end of our time
How Can Public Support Union Strikes?
01:00:15
Speaker
here. I think what I am interested in and what I think people need to know is what are your advice for normies who want to support working people who want to support organized labor? What's some kind of quick and dirty things and advice you would give out?
01:00:31
Speaker
Um, shop union. I know that sounds really like lame and cliche, but shop union, there's, um, yeah. So if you're like, if you're talking about groceries, go to superstore, go to Safeway. Don't go to sobies. Don't go to no frills.
01:00:48
Speaker
Yeah, we didn't we didn't even talk about save on so save on is don't go to wall to wall clack billionaire Jim Pattison voluntarily certified entire every save on that exists in Canada in and no well in Alberta specifically because we have we have some NBC and I think that might be why they gave it to clack so that UFCW couldn't organize them and
01:01:11
Speaker
And don't worry, we tried four years ago during their open period too. So, and I think that was one of my, five years ago, that was one of my first campaigns ever, was a rating o'clock. My shop union do not ever cross a picket line, do not be a scab. If you are, you know, you see a picket line and you don't have any sort of affiliation,
01:01:36
Speaker
be the most aggressive person there. You have no skin in the game, just do it. Fight a cop, stand in the street, and punch a cop in the face.
01:01:48
Speaker
Now parody, parody. Satire. Allegedly. Allegedly satire. But, but yeah, don't bring, I mean, go to it. If you haven't been to a picket line, go to a picket line, talk to the people who are on the picket line, take some goddamn coffee. Bring them coffee, bring them food, but also bring them coffee and, um, just be nice because some strikes can feel like forever. And so bring some like levity and excitement and yell at a cop.
01:02:17
Speaker
And yeah, strikes are important because strikes work. And strikes only work if they can demonstrate to the employer that everyone is on their side. And Clack boasts about how few strikes they've had. And honestly, I've never heard of a Clack strike in my entire life. We tried to research and look for one. We could not find one. I think they have existed at some point in their history, but I don't believe there's ever been one in Alberta.
Conclusion and Contact Information
01:02:41
Speaker
So there you go.
01:02:42
Speaker
Saba, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. Thank you. We really do appreciate it. This has been a really awesome and fun conversation. Thanks. If there is a way for people to follow you online, and you're not really online, but if you want people to follow you. Hey, I'm online. How should I touch you? I have Twitter. It's at Saba, UFCW401, and I'm on Facebook, but what is it? Saba Saba. All right.
01:03:07
Speaker
If you want to organize your workplace and you live in Alberta, or if you just need some advice, holler at your girl. All right, you heard it here. Thanks so much. Bye. Thank you so much to Saba and Bruce for chatting with us. As someone who started out as a bit of a labor noob and outsider, I really would have appreciated something like this when I was getting started in activism land. So I hope this is useful content for you folks.
01:03:31
Speaker
Our Sunday this week is some good news. Lethbridge City Council has defeated a motion to defund the supervised consumption site in that city. This was after a very divisive debate led by a conservative city councilor against the supervised consumption site in town. This would have been the first real rollback of existing harm reduction services if it had gone through. However, in that vein, the UCP have just announced a new panel and it doesn't look great. So we'll have more on this issue next week.
01:03:57
Speaker
Our next episode is on the supervised consumption sites and the politics around them. And that's it for this episode this week. If you like the show, please take a minute to leave a review. I don't want to get too alarmist, but we are at four and a half stars on Alpha Podcast right now, and that is not good, people.
01:04:13
Speaker
We need at least a dozen nice reviews right now to get that number closer to five. And if you like this show, don't just leave a review, tell your friends about it. The larger the audience this show has, the bigger the impact it has on the world, and that's what we're here for at the end of the day. Also, if you have any notes, thoughts, or comments you think I need to hear, I'm on Twitter at atdunkinkinney, and you can reach me by email at dunkinkayatprogressalberta.ca. I can't always respond, but I will definitely read what you send me. And thanks so much to Cosmic Famicominist for our amazing theme. Thanks for listening, and goodbye.