Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back to season three of the Miscarriage Rebellion. On today's episode, I have Tracy. Tracy Bo is a Channel 9 news presenter. Tracy reached out to us after her experience of termination for medical reasons with her baby boy, James. She reached out and we had a conversation around that experience and it's a story that needs to be told. Termination for medical reasons isn't something that I've personally been through, but it is something that I hear daily through our communities that we provide TFMR support to, that there really is this additional stigma, shame and silence even that still exists. We know many in this community still use words like miscarriage, yet actually they've had a TFMR. And when you start to unpack that, we can see where that's coming from.
Speaker: So this is a really important conversation to have. I'm really grateful that you've chosen to come on to the Miscarriage Rebellion and to share your experience and where you are now. um I'm going to start with welcome. Thanks, Sam. No, I feel very um privileged and honoured to be able to...
Speaker: I guess get to this point as well that, you know, I can, we or we feel comfortable speaking about um our experience and losing our boy James. um And thank you for having me involved and, you know, your support network is just so important to so many people out there that I just, I was naive to it all um as well. And how many people... go through their experiences, their losses, um be it early in pregnancy or after um they've given birth as well. So um it's been roller coaster, but um we're here now and, um yeah, happy to share James' story. Yeah. Thank you for coming on. We might step back then and go back even before that pregnancy with James.
Speaker: So you've just got married. Yeah, yeah. Like most things, you've kind of gone through life, you've ticked these boxes, I've done this, I've done this, I'm here now. We get married, ah well we just fall pregnant, right? Yes, that's right. That's what happens. yes And now I met Liam, my husband, later in life um and I got married, we got married when I was 40. He's a few a couple of years younger. yeah.
Speaker: yeah I think there's that naivety in terms of, oh, you just start trying and you'll fall pregnant like that. You know um you spend so so many years or decades even to try and not fall pregnant, right? And then as soon as you make the decision to um clear you know the birth control or whatever, and however you you choose to do it, um you feel like, oh it should should work. But I, to be honest, i was so uneducated um I didn't do enough reading about, you know, timings and, um you know, when when is the right time during the month, you know, to try. um So i always had in the back of my mind, though, i I did think, well, we probably have to go down the IVF track. um And we went we were going through all the testing and we were pretty much prepared
Speaker: mentally and physically, what i was mentally in preparing and physically preparing myself to get to that point to start the IVF treatment. um Because we started trying for a few months and, yeah, it wasn't working. So I said, you know, let's just yeah let's just do it. we we We have the capacity to do it as well. So we were fortunate enough to do that.
Speaker: um And then we were on a trip um to the United States. We take we took our stepdaughter, my step my stepdaughter, Liam's daughter, ah to Disneyland. So we having a lovely family holiday, which was great. um We get home from that trip um and I feel naturally which was a lovely surprise. And, um you know I was working out the timings, you know, looking back at the calendar. Yeah, when was it? And then, you know, i you know when when we revealed the news, I said, oh, it happened in Disneyland, you know, it really is the happiest place on earth. um So that was a joy to to, you know, just to have that light blue line, you know, there's the line come through and you're like, great.
Speaker: um And then, yeah, again, just thought, you know, we' we're in the clear. We got to 10 weeks, did the harmony test. That was all clear.
Speaker: and it wasn't until the first scan, at the 13-week or so scan, um there was an issue that came up. Yeah. And that was like, honestly, like a wrecking ball had come through the house almost for us. It just, we just had no, there's no way to mentally prepare yourself for something like that. um And it wasn't it wasn't a dire, I should say a dire sort of discovery or diagnosis. There were just a few things that were unclear about our boy um that the ultrasound clinic that we went to initially
Speaker: um had picked up. So we were kind of just had to sort of, we were in their hands really to so wait every single week to see what would kind of come about, um hoping every single scan would kind of get better.
Speaker: and that's often not talked about, right? This in between, because what we see in the movies and on TV is that miscarriage is something that happens early and it happens quickly. um the rush to hospital, there's blood. There's that kind of drama is the way it's dramatised. Or happens in the bathroom or yes. And so what we don't hear enough of is experiences where women and their partners have to hold space and you don't know which way it's going to go. And I hear those stories every day in our online communities where they might have had a scan where the heart rate's not as fast as it should be or the growth's not quite where it was meant to be at this time. And then you have to wait.
Speaker: And I've been in that wait too. And that wait is agonising. Oh, yeah. It's awful because. all consuming. Yeah, and you. sorry. Sorry. Yeah, no, I'm sorry. It's all you
Speaker: You build so much strength to try and have that hope that every single scan is going to get better and that, oh, It's so hard to try and be like, you know, that's all right. We're going to put it out to the universe. Everything's going to be okay.
Speaker: He'll be all right. you know, um
Speaker: things will change. the next scale will get better. um And then, yeah, I just don't think unless you're in it, there's you can't really fully appreciate or understand. yeah as you said, like it's a holding pattern. Yeah.
Speaker: And you're almost in limit. And then the questions, because you've told people as well. So i again, I thought after the harmony test I was starting to tell people. I was going to start telling people and you know, even just early i mentioned it early to um the bosses are at work.
Speaker: So, you know, all these little questions were answered. um coming about and you try to really just mask it and be like yeah yeah you know we're going good we're just you know waiting for the next scan there's just a couple of things that the you know um doctors want to check out so that's sort of like on repeat that line um every single week so um and and you're you're on your own really because you can't You kind of can confide in in people or family members with what exactly is going on, but they don't fully understand either because they're not sitting there looking at the scan and you're hearing from the sonographer what they're seeing or not seeing, you know.
Speaker: So, um but, yeah, honestly, it just took so much energy to just try and hold on to that hope. Yeah. Because it feels like your responsibility, right? That's it. You're a parent. I want to hold on to hope for my baby. That's right. And I...
Speaker: rees i read, I tried to get books, I, you know, got different random supplements to try and just boost whatever I could in my body. But by that stage I think, you know, you it was it was too late anyway. You know, we couldn't, um there wasn't much we could kind of or I could physically. And, you know, I felt like I was letting him down.
Speaker: Like my body was letting him down because it it just didn't give him, I guess, the nourishment or the nurturing that he needed to physically grow. Yeah. So. And it wasn't you. It's nothing that at all. But again.
Speaker: I and we at Pink Elephants hear that so much that I'd argue that because there's such a lack of a conversation around these experiences, that then when they happen to us, there's so much shame and stigma still playing out that doesn't need to be there because it's nothing we did. Often it's genetics, right? And we can't control that, which is really shitty and awful. But it's not your fault. Yeah.
Speaker: But yet because there's been this lack of conversation around it, we all do it. I did it too. Was it that one glass of wine? Was it because I went for a run? Was it because I flew to so-and-so on work? Yeah. You just literally internalise all this and you question absolutely everything. Yeah.
Speaker: And it's not our fault. No. And we we more women need to hear that. Yes. but and I think the reason why I've sort of accepted and and feel more comfortable speaking about our our stories is I felt so much comfort once we shared the loss of James, how many people, not just people, um obviously friends and family knew, but acquaintances, but also strangers who would reach out on social media and say, I've been through the same thing or
Speaker: And that gave us comfort that we weren't alone. But through the process of everything, you feel so alone and you're, you know, you you just say, you know, why us? What what did we do to to to get to this point? And um we, um yeah, so we we, for us, we waited up until 20 weeks.
Speaker: um And, you know, I think also my medical team were holding on to hope. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That things would change. We all want the best outcome. That's right. That's right. That things would change. And then we got a second opinion from another ultrasound clinic here in Perth who are amazing. And I went back to them for my subsequent, you know, with Mila. We'll be talking about that later. But, yeah, so we went.
Speaker: um for a second opinion with them and they, yeah, there was, the words were there was a global issue. um James just wasn't growing. And, you know, by that stage at 20 weeks and I was, again, I didn't know what my body should feel like or look like by that stage either because I had never experienced pregnancy so um before.
Speaker: So I was like, okay. And I had a little bump so I thought I was on track. um But then, yeah, basically we sat down with um the specialist and she said, look, it is entirely up to you but, you know, yeah, it's it's it's it's a decision that you you would have you would need to make but depends on when you want to make it. Yeah.
Speaker: Because it was also hard through the scans. the heart His heartbeat was so strong. Yeah. Strong heartbeat. um You know, there were other parts of the scan where he was perfect, but there were other parts that just were just not there. So um we basically just, well, we did that afternoon. We drove to the foreshore and just sat and cried.
Speaker: Just us two. Just, well, you know, we had a moment. And it was really hard for me. I think that it was harder for me to see my husband break down because he's so strong. He's always been the calm and, um,
Speaker: Like just he'll, you know, turn things into like brightness, you know. He'll he'll turn things around a bit. But that day he just there was there was nothing there. So, um yeah, we just sat at the foreshore, just sat there for a moment and then he just said, let's just let's just make the decision because let's just make the decision. just Also, i didn't want James to – we didn't want James to suffer. No. So, you know, we weren't sure how he was, you know.
Speaker: So, yeah, it was really surreal after that. um You're almost a bit numb and robotic, you know, going through the process. You check into the hospital and, um yeah, it and i I didn't know what to expect from the process. Yeah.
Speaker: And, ah yeah, I delivered James, so I went through labour um and he made it very easy for me. it wasn't ah it wasn't a very long labour. And he arrived very peacefully.
Speaker: And, um yeah, we got to spend the afternoon, the night and the morning with him, which was really lovely. And it was really nice. We got to hold him yeah for long long amounts of time. Yeah. He had like such a gorgeous little nose and the eyes were there as well. So, yeah, but he was tiny. He was like 190 grams or something. yeah So very small. ah and But we thought it was just that was a special time for us. Yeah.
Speaker: Really special
Speaker: um We got to meet him and um he's at home with us. yeah Yeah. Yeah. So we've got his ashes and he sits on this beautiful shrine with um his hand and footprints. They're so so small, so little tiny prints. And then we he had a jelly cat that we had given him, a little bunny, so that sits there. um We have his beanie and his wrap that he was –
Speaker: very okay very gently placed in by the nurses. So we've kept that there as well. So we were always going to take him home. There was an option where like the hospital here in Perth, they have this lovely rose garden. King Eddies. Yeah, yeah, yeah i get is yeah King Eddies. So um they have a lovely rose garden there. So there was the option, but we just felt like, no, he needs to come home with us. So he's at home with us.
Speaker: Yeah. Thank you for sharing James with us. I know that's not easy. yeah um But it's nice to speak about him because even though he existed just for a mere moment, you know, he's always part of our family, yeah part of our lives. And it's funny, though, because even speaking about James, sometimes you feel like, oh, there's that awkwardness a bit like, oh, should I be speaking about? Because when you speak about grief or loss,
Speaker: in the right forum you can get that – you can feel that love and that support. um But when you can go to other sort of environments – and I know grief and loss is awkward. It is awkward for people. Some people just don't know how to handle it, which is fair. ah And, i mean, my thing as well for speaking up a bit more about this is that, you know, i we love talking about it but we we're not – here to be like, well, it was you know, this sorrowful, you feel sorry for me. No, it's more just like this is real. It's what happened to you. This is real life, yeah, but it happens to a lot of people as well. And they kind of almost want to normalise the conversation get rid of that stigma, you know, that's why I feel like –
Speaker: Yeah, that that's what kind of pushed me to get to this point and, um yeah, being able to speak to you about it.
Speaker: It's probably been the first time we've sort of spoken. I've spoken in depth remember ah publicly um about James and and what, you know, everything that happened in the lead up. Because even, you know, i don't think people realise that I delivered him as well. No.
Speaker: Because you were given a label of miscarriage in many ways. Yes. I know it's a termination for medical reasons. yes Like I said earlier, often the two terms get intertwined. People don't really understand the difference or some people will use miscarriage because they're afraid of judgment of termination for medical reasons, which is abhorrent and should not be.
Speaker: That just blows my mind. you know as we Afterwards I felt guilt. yeah There was a huge amount of guilt because we went through all the testing as well to see what what was going on with um with James and why he wasn't growing. um And that was also a very tough um process because – the answers weren't crystal clear either. But I remember because I felt so much guilt and I'd asked the specialist who was doing all the testing afterwards and she was a lovely woman, straight down the line, which I really liked. You need that sometimes. But in an empathetic way and how she delivered um the news. But I said to her if I kept going with the pregnancy,
Speaker: how would he how would he have gone? How would he have fed? And she's like, no, he wouldn't have survived anyway. So she said, you made the right decision. So, yeah i think people, I'd like people who understand with TFMR that it is not an easy decision. And, yeah, there is that guilt that I don't think you will ever go away because you feel like the responsibility is there. But then we also know, you know, it was the right decision. We didn't want him to suffer.
Speaker: All I see from those decisions is parents that are absolutely filled with love for their child and are making a decision on behalf of their child. There's compassion and love and nothing else.
Speaker: But yeah, we still have so many other emotions and there's no wrong or right emotion. I think people get like with grief and loss. They try and fix. They can't find a silver lining. Oh, I can do this and then you won't feel that.
Speaker: No, we all feel these things and the feelings are okay. Like we have to kind of get better at being able to deal with grief and loss make people wear their up, right? And it's funny, I'm going to quote a comedian. Who I found a lot of, like Liam and i felt a lot of found a lot of light. He's very crass. Jimmy Carr. Jimmy Carr. love it. He is so crass. We love him. But he also comes up with such profound. One-liners. Yeah, one-liners. And um I'm not sure if you've probably seen it, Sam. Yeah.
Speaker: there was someone who texted through and said basically i think she had a she was had stillbirth um I think a year i ago and she only ever found light watching his shows. or um And he was the one that said, yeah, like grief is really awkward.
Speaker: And then, you know, some people were like, I don't know what to say. And he said, you know what, just say that. I don't know what to say. And also i just like – to sort of enlighten people, I guess, in a way that just say, I'm sorry. Yeah. That's all you need to hear. You don't have to say anything. You don't you have to fix it, right? stop trying to find the silver linings. Yeah, don't need to find, don't need you don't need to fix it. you just Or you just allow us to so allow us to speak and just sit there and listen. But, yeah, Jimmy Carr, that that clip really got me because I was like,
Speaker: he basic it He just sums it up so. it just should he's But he admits grief is effing awkward. It is. People don't like it. Loss is awkward. but um But if you don't know what to say, just say that. And I was like that's just so, that's.
Speaker: Simple. Yeah. so watch Jimmy Carr. I think we're going link to the clip in the show notes. know. I know. It's so But it's so right. And like we hear this conversation often as well is that all the things that people say that are not helpful and they're not ill intent. It's not done with malice. No. It's just a lack of education around grief and loss. And again, another thing for us is meeting us where we are and not being afraid of our grief and tears. Yeah. Like they're perfectly healthy. It's normal that we're crying. You can't upset us anymore by saying things. Just lean in and be present, I think, is enough, right?
Speaker: And you and you if you allow that time and that, I guess, um it's almost just like a cathartic sort of like, oh, like, you know, you say I i was in tears and now I'm like laughing. You know, it kind of it's it's a phase, right? It passes. Every every every moment passes. so I feel like for those people who do feel a bit awkward when they've got a loved one or, you know, a friend um or colleague or whatever, If they're feeling that grief and pain, just be like, like you know, I'm here, what do you need? Or i don't know what to say or I'm sorry. Like it's just keep it simple. Simple. Yeah. Yeah, it really is.
Speaker: I want to change track now. You've welcomed another beautiful baby in the world now, baby Mila. Do want to talk to us about that experience? Yes. Pregnancy after loss. Yes. So, um well, we delivered James in August 2024. So obviously took me bit it took me a bit of time to recover um after that. And um also, no, I don't think people understand the stuff that happened. happens out to your body afterwards and and other complications. Like I had retained placenta as well. was about to go back into hospital. So even my obstetrician, I'll give her a shout out if I can. aliciarey Alicia McCreary, Alicia McCreary, she was fantastic.
Speaker: And, you know, she delivered Mila as well. And even she was like, geez, been through the ringer. I was like, I know. Just another thing. And it feels like that. Like the universe just kicks everything at once, right? That's right. And I'd rather be like, you know what, everything happens in threes. If it just, okay, a third one come and then and then go away. Yeah, yeah. But um so it was August 2024 and then I think, yeah, so i i I really worked on myself physically and mentally to to get myself back into, i guess, um feeling good again um in some way.
Speaker: And by December I'd felt strong enough. I was like, you know what, let's let's give it another another go But I wanted to go down the IVF path and we did all the testing And again, like Liam and I are very fortunate enough that we can go down that you know down that road because it is taxing emotionally, physically, but also financially. yeah um So I get that. and I know it's hard for so many people out there who desperately want a baby and that's the only way that they can go but um you know potentially can't even get there financially. Yeah.
Speaker: But we did all the testing we could and I, you know, all the injections. But, again, I went down like the road of like I'm going to take all these supplements and see what, you know, what might help. And i believe everything helped in some way.
Speaker: did the egg retrieval in December. We got 13, which was amazing. Really good. Even for my obstetrician was just like this is amazing for your age. Yeah, I love it. I was not going to add that market. But, yeah, that's a really good number. was 41. 41 by then. Yeah.
Speaker: And then um we got five embryos. And this is another thing I think people don't understand is that it's not just the egg count. You've got to get to the egg. So it's like, yeah. And you're holding breath in between each stage. Yes, seeing like, oh, my gosh, am I going to get enough? Like, okay. So, yeah, when we got five, like, this is amazing.
Speaker: um But then there's the next step to see if, um you know, if they're viable. So we ended up with two, which were great.
Speaker: um One is mosaic. So mosaic from my understanding is basically you can sort of, it's sort of the roll of the dice. so You can implant and it could go either way.
Speaker: it It could be great or it could yeah have abnormalities. so um anyway, we had two good ones. we were like, that's great. And then we transferred in January.
Speaker: And um it was a really funny story because the fertility is it was Fertility Specialist WA and the head professor, um but Roger Hart, who's amazing. I know Roger. Professor Roger Hart. But yeah funny story. So obviously with my work, I've done all I do a lot of health stories and I've done a lot of stories. He does a lot in Prem Babies. Yeah, he's great. I've done a lot of stories with him, where especially with fertility um advances and technology. And you're at the opposite end now. I know. And then no he looks at me and we were like, was like, yeah, we I've spoken to i was like, oh, yes. and And funnily enough, the timing of that, I had emailed him only a few weeks prior to be like, what what have you got in in the fertility space for news? So, you know, we came to do a story. He said, I'm going to write ah right i'm goingnna write back to your email while I'm there. Yeah.
Speaker: And he's doing the transform. Liam thinks it's hilarious ah but he's just, you know, talking a away. He's so lovely. Yeah, yeah. And and i felt I felt like, oh, this is this is already, we're on a good we're on a good start here. Like I've got someone who I trust and and he's just making us feel so comfortable. with everything. So we had the transfer and then, um yeah, just waited for the, you know, for the blood tests and then, you know, the the official pregnancy test. And then, yeah, we were over the moon, over the moon, like, yeah,
Speaker: We couldn't believe it that that it actually worked as well because, again, first transfers rarely. No, they don't. And that's another misnomer, right? you think You think, oh, yep, great. You know, they've they've implanted its mind up. it's Yeah. So we got really lucky.
Speaker: And that's not lost on us either, you know. um But there was always that. I guess not heaviness, but just, um yeah, that we were so cautious and I was i was anxious. I was anxious thinking, again, and it was I was counting down the weeks. yeah Come on, let's get to the next week. Let's get to 10 weeks and get the nipped. Let's get to 13 weeks and hopefully that first scan. And it was that 13-week scan for us was like fantastic.
Speaker: It was great. But then we're like, no, we want to get to the 20 week. I think by that stage I think um we wanted to be so cautious that they were willing to. We we did regular scans because of what had happened to us before. So i think we got, we did 13, think 15, 17, then, yeah, and then we got to then And i didn't I didn't officially say anything, I reckon, until about 21 or 22 weeks until I knew, i guess, for certain that, you she was going to be And as certain as you can be still in that moment. And I talk about, um you know, having to deliver James at 20 weeks. And I know second pregnancies can be, you know, your body's a bit different, but I knew
Speaker: this was different because even how my body was and it just changed more. I had, I could feel her more so than, yeah, when I had James at 20 weeks. so um it felt different. Yeah. But again, it was, it wasn't until we got to the hospital in October, 2025. So yeah, just last year that, um Yeah, and then until I delivered her then looked at her and I was like, can you please make a noise and cry? Yeah, that was when I was like, okay, I think she's pretty good. She's really real and she's here, right? Yeah, she's real she's healthy. You know, they did all the checks on her, checks on her.
Speaker: The only issue that she had was jaundice, which is normal, so she had to do the blue light for 24 hours. um But everything else checked out. You know, the paediatricians were happy with her and we got to go home and it was just wonderful. It was so nice to have her to bring her home. yes Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's really important to talk there as well as that pregnancy after loss.
Speaker: There is no kind of safe point where we all of a sudden just lean in and go, okay I can believe now what we hear from our community and what I speak of from lived experience as well is that There are these series of milestones. We even have a checklist on pink elephants for people who are pregnancy after loss because we know what they are, right? We want to see our HCG doubling. We want to have that first dating scan with a strong heartbeat. We then want to get through the nips. And there's an assumption from people who haven't gone through pregnancy after loss in general society that you get past this kind of arbitrary marker of miscarriage risk and you're all okay and yours would be around that 20-week marker for you. But it's not that way because there's a seed of doubt that's been put inside of you a while. because you have gone through lossy pho you can't just remove that. It doesn't just go away, right? that' sits there It there. It sat there throughout and even and not not even like there were minor things. Like ah my placenta was lying low so i was a bit like, what does that what that mean? Like is that going to be an issue? And Alicia was like, no, no, no, it's fine. like We just might have to go down caesarean path if we need to. But we got scans right up until like I think 37. Yeah.
Speaker: 37 and a half or something and then the like my placenta moved. So it was fine. We were clear to go um to go down the natural path, which is what I wanted to as well. But I also was still, when I was in hospital going through labour, I was like anything could happen. And then I was trying to, you know, when they monitor you and I was trying to hear like the sounds and make sure the sounds are all good. And even when I was probably TMI, but... I was pushing, I was like, is that noise still there? Is the heartbeat still going? Like you just, you feel really like, um I wasn't even, didn't even sort of, i was numb to everyone. i was numb, but I didn't even sort of care about what was going on there. I was more just trying to hear out, like listen to the the monitors. Yeah, to hear that heartbeat. To hear the heartbeat. and I was not naive also to the fact that I could potentially potentially have to be rushed off to have an emergency C or whatever. But, um no, our birthing experience was great. It was she made it, Mila made it so easy for us or for me.
Speaker: um Yeah, she it was almost almost like James was also there, you know, making sure that everything was going well and she was going to arrive safely um on Earth's side. so um But, you know, even now though she's six months away old I'm still worried. yeah know, there's little things that, normal things, milestones that should reach. like, is that normal?
Speaker: Dr. Google, which is terrible. I shouldn't be doing that. No, we all do it. Yeah. But don yeah, there's, there's always that level. i It's, you know, you never stop worrying. um But I think having, yeah, a loss, um,
Speaker: that that concern or worry can be enhanced at at certain times, you know. so Yeah, we see that. I think that parenting after loss is a different journey as well. Like we talked about this off camera before, but like I know that I can directly compare just my two. Like I've got three living children and I've lost three babies, but the first Georgie, I had no issues. Yeah. And I don't have this kind of anxiety around her health, whereas with Johnny and Rose something happens and all of a sudden I can catastrophize very quickly. And I've spoken about that on here before. And I hear that so often from our community. We've actually been asked, can you do more parenting after loss? I'm like, no, we stay where we are. We can't service the need that we have here, right? yes
Speaker: But, yeah, it is a different experience. that will And I think that shows the profound deepness that this impacts us with and how long it stays with us as well. Yes, absolutely. And I just I don't think it's ever going to go away. um i and i But I also am so conscious of not wanting it to cloud my judgment and, you know, I want to enjoy all the moments with her um because she is she is happy and healthy and she's safe. Yeah.
Speaker: And I've got to really keep reminding myself of that. But, yeah, you do sometimes when you're sleep deprived or she's like she's a bit grisly or something and you're like, what's wrong? Is she sick? Is she unwell? And they can't tell you. And they can't tell you. But then she smiles and you're like, okay everything's all good, you know. um but yeah, I just... i And we we are we are so grateful to have her in our lives and we we we feel like we've gotten so lucky with her after everything we've been through. And um i think you almost forget as well
Speaker: It's funny how you how when, you know, you're pregnant or you give birth, you just, you don't, you kind of forget certain aspects. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Burst into glasses quite literally. Yes, yeah. And, um...
Speaker: Yeah, because you I guess you've got got to live in the now, I suppose. But, yeah, I think it's we I look at Mila every day and, you know, I just I'm so thankful. Yeah, so thankful. She's happy, healthy. She's so happy. um And, you know, we and I've been bringing her to James's shrine and she just smiles. She's so lovely. Just say this is your little this is your older brother. And, um you know, so we'll always be speaking about James with her. He's part of your family. Yeah, he is. He really is. He's always going to be part of our family and we don't want to forget that either.
Speaker: Yeah. It's beautiful. yeah Thank you so much for sharing everything. I'm sorry. I was such a – No. Oh, gosh. I hope it was Don't. It was so, so I didn't think I would get so emotional so far. That's why they're here, right? I know. You came prepared. You have to be ready. But we all do. They're real. They're our babies. They matter. Of course we're going to cry. But I'll also say like um what you guys do for the for our community, which is a community that we don't want to be a part of, like a club that we don't want to be a part of. But I'm also grateful that there is a club that ah there are a lot of people who are part of it as well. But the sport that you give um all of us is great, even just these these podcasts and just hearing other people's experiences so you can relate and you don't feel alone. So, you know, thank you. um
Speaker: and I'm very excited to be doing more with you guys as well. And I'll be doing stuff with Red Nose. We've discussed this well. So Red Nose Australia is also a wonderful sport. Support network that, you know, and I didn't realise that you guys were there. I didn't know. kind of forgot that Red Nose were there. You know, you just don't think about these things. You're in grief. It's so hard to find what you need at that point. Yes.
Speaker: And you're not sure what support. What's what you need? You've never been there before, right? So not only you in shock that this is actually happening to you, you've had no education, no awareness, no conversation really around it. And then you're expected to navigate your own support pathway. Yeah. It needs to flip the other way. Yes. It will one day. yeah yes and Yeah.
Speaker: I just think one thing probably we haven't really touched on like What do you hope to see change for those that go through termination for medical reasons in the future? What do you think would be really amazing if there could be something that could change around the experience?
Speaker: um
Speaker: And look, the medical team that we had were amazing, but there are certain aspects that, when you're going through that sort of grief and loss, and I'm not trying to, you know, be negative towards some some some you know people, but, you know, I think and i think i think a lot of people have experience this, but sometimes the lack of empathy or just, you know the language that's used or the tone. You know, we had some some nurses were fantastic. Others were a bit...
Speaker: Just a bit abrasive at times, especially when you're going through such a huge... You're you're like ah you know you're you're in the depths of despair. You're so vulnerable. Yes, so vulnerable. Anything can trigger you um i think there's a bit of awareness in terms of tone and language and how you're approaching people who... I mean, I think I was, I'd like to think I've got that compassionate side, but I got that from my family. My parents have a lovely, nurturing, compassionate side to them. So I'm always conscious of how people are feeling and, you know, even your tone can be skin can be interpreted in a really different way. So um i think just that approach, I guess, just when people are in that moment, I'm,
Speaker: having that empathy and compassion. um But also just speaking about TFMR more because I didn't know. i didn't know anything about it.
Speaker: um I did have – I had an old – like a colleague of mine over in Sydney, um she opened me up to a makeup artist that i used to work with back then. She's lovely but she went through the same thing. So we were texting her Instagram and she – So that gave me comfort. But, again, I think not many people speak about it, not many people say that we had to make the decision. Yeah.
Speaker: It wasn't just sort of the universe taking our baby, you know. Like we had to actually say, yes, okay, we've got to go to the hospital and do this. So i think just having more of a conversation and actually making it not,
Speaker: like not stigmatised or you're not making it like, oh this is really yeah an awful thing to talk about. Or I don't know. It's just I feel like um I feel like I hope other families have that strength and feel can feel more comfortable in the future to be able to speak about it openly. And I think that's our responsibility as a community to provide safe spaces where people can yeah share without fear of judgment. Yes. And when we have that, then I think you're more likely to have people say what actually happened to them and that they made this incredibly difficult decision. Like it wasn't a decision that anybody takes lightly and it isn't what they set out for either. No. No. You set out to have a baby in your arms. And to take them home in, you know, like in a happy
Speaker: um healthy sort you know way, I suppose. like you oh We wanted to take James home in our little capsule and in the car and into his cot, but he never got there. So we brought him put him home in a little like a little box that was given to us by the team at King Eddie's. And um he's home with us still, but, yeah, you never anticipate having to do that. ah You know, i Yeah, it's still hard for me to kind of wrap your head around it really. Yeah, it really is. But, but yeah, I think that's probably one thing. i just
Speaker: The more we speak about it, than then, i yeah, I feel like I'm more i'm obviously more very educated about it now because we've been through it and I've read a lot about it. But, um yeah, I would hope that people could feel can feel comfortable speaking about it. Yeah.
Speaker: And, again, like I think maybe even more maybe more education within sort of the medical realm as well in terms of how, you know, it's it's not just it's not a miscarriage. it's It is a loss but, you know, the decision that we had to make and it was awful. Yeah. So even just, I guess, how things are spoken about when you're in hospital. Yeah, the language that's wrong on your sheet as well, right? Yeah, the language. It matters. Yes. yeah Yeah, it's the language that's used. And, yeah, again, I'm not, you know, I'm not criticising. The medical team is so good. It's systems change. It's not an individual nurse doctor or anything. There's no criticism really there. It's actually what's required is government policy and directive yeah to change language. yes Yes. in healthcare settings so that we remove labels like spontaneous abortion so that we can have more reflective, validating, empathetic language in these settings that does not add trauma yeah to the experience. It's unnecessary. And I'd argue it's out-of-date language that doesn't sit today that we can remove, but it's a system and a process that needs to happen. um But we do know there are some wonderful health professionals that just change the language. They just do it. I've got one. She's amazing, in Terry. And then she literally crosses things out on sheets and writes a different thing. And I'm like, I love you for that. Yes. Because she knows what a difference, because she's got lived experience, but she knows what a difference it makes. Yes. It's the language, I think. And... I think educating more people in that sense, it'll make us feel a lot at ease and more comfortable speaking about it. But then, you know, and ah I've got to get better as well because I still have a bit of like, oh, are people going to be like, oh.
Speaker: What's she banging on about? or you know You know what I mean? and i and and But that's I think that's just this almost like a societal thing where yes you don't speak about your grief, you don't speak about your loss or oh she's just trying to get like sympathy or something like that. but um And I've got that internal battle constantly. It's really hard. Even speaking with you and then I've got, you know, some interviews coming up for we've got say their name day for Red Nose which is on March 25 and like,
Speaker: How are people going to take that? Are they going to feel okay or ah do they feel like I'm just exploiting my grief or something? So that's. And that's. Because someone has to go first. Someone has to share to incite change. And storytelling is a big part of the change that we want to see in the future.
Speaker: It also is a legacy for James. Yes. No, it is. Being able to tell James' story. He was really, really. He was here. he had that beautiful little button nose that we talked about, right? He's part of your family.
Speaker: Why should you not be able to speak about him? Why should you not be able to say his name, which I think is part of, I love part of Say Their Name Day for that reason, right? It's giving our community who haven't had a voice or a space to share because it's not had that safe space. It's creating that safe space. so We don't share for sympathy. no We share the most personal, heartfelt, awful things that happen to us because we want to make change so that it doesn't happen to others in the same way. And there's also a lack of shock. But I want to add another thing there as well that we don't talk about enough. Yeah.
Speaker: We don't expect domestic violence survivors. We don't expect cancer survivors, other kind of health issue survivors to step up and advocate for themselves when they're in the system. And I think that says so much around the experience of pregnancy loss, termination for medical reasons, miscarriages, that we're still at a point in time where we are needing to share our experiences on platforms like this to get people to listen.
Speaker: Yes. And hopefully one day they'll just be part of common discourse. It's fine. Yeah. it's It's all good. Yeah. And the thing is i I get so much comfort when, you know, my friends um speak about James or they mentioned jack they just mention James' name or um it's so lovely. Like it's it's it's not – and I want to give them a shout-out because even just saying his name, just even just once – It gives us so much love and comfort. um And it just shows they care. They know that it' like there they care. they they he he he was He existed. It's validating. Yes, it validates him. um and Yeah, again, I don't think we will get that. Like he had he had a strong heart but he was there. He was here.
Speaker: But, yeah, it's just it it's just the way that it ended and it's awful. But... Yeah, just having that little just glimpse, glimpses here and there, it just gives us so much comfort. So i don't think um think people underestimate how significant just saying their name really is I agree. Yeah.
Speaker: Thank you. Thank you. We're probably talking for hours. I know, I could carry on and on and on. It's like such Yeah, I hope this also gives people a lot of comfort as well and I, you know, I love...
Speaker: Also just, you know, hearing and sharing and with other people's experiences too and and when when you can speak it about it so honestly and openly and it it gives me comfort, you know. It makes me feel like, oh, you know, – We've all gone through the same thing and, you know, it's a community. It's it's a special community. it's ah It's a heartbreaking community but a special one too. so And there is a big community out there. Yes, I don't think people realise. No, I mean it's really common. We hear that a lot. and Okay, it's common but to me it's the loss of my baby so don't minimise it with language like that.
Speaker: But I think it's really important that if you are in it, you understand that you're not alone. There are many of us. And there actually is places like the Pink Elephants online communities where you can connect. We've got a specific community for termination for medical reasons. We've got a whole suite of resources on our website just for this experience because we know it's nuanced and different to that, say, of a missed miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy. So please, please, if you're listening today, have a look. Reach out for support. You're not alone.
Speaker: There is so much support. There's us, there's Red Nose, there's Birds of Hope. yeah you You don't have to go through this grief alone. When you're ready, we're all here for you. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: Big, big collective hug. Yeah, it is. I love that.
