Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back to season three of the miscarriage rebellion. I am really, really excited to have Libby here with me today. um Libby reached out to me, think around 18 months ago now and told me she was writing a book about the experiences of miscarriage. um And I looked into what Libby has done before and I was like, okay, this is someone I'll actually, i would really like to give my time to and share my story with. and In all honesty at Pink Elephants, we do get notified about books and different things that projects are working on and we can't contribute to everything. um But I really, really, really connected quite well with Libby and thought, yep, this is going to be done with the care and the empathy that it deserves and it will hopefully make a difference. So I'm really grateful to have you today here, Libby, with us.
Speaker: No, thanks for having me. It's good see you again. I know, right? and So we will kick off and get started and i think the easiest way to kind of explain who you are to our community that are listening is to really start with the vulnerable position of sharing your experience of miscarriage, pregnancy loss and your fertility journey.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. i just, I always wanted to be a mum and I never ever saw myself not being a mum. I wanted a house full of kids. so But I had this dream that I would have my own kids and I would have foster kids and then the neighbours' kids would come and and, you know, like an American sitcom where everyone just drops in and they hop themselves to the fridge.
Speaker: That was kind of my dream. That and also marrying Leonardo DiCaprio, I think, were the same of it. I made I aged out of that pretty quickly um but I just I wanted to to be a mum like that would be it was such an honour to me but i I wanted to do a lot of other things as well obviously but I I um I just I had this dream I just wanted to care I wanted to love and I uh and so that just was was what I wanted to do with and i got married quite young to a a guy who that marriage didn't last very long but we did try to have babies at the time and it it didn't work out and honestly I was too young to be in that marriage anyway but I did feel that sense of loss because I thought it was going to happen easily
Speaker: And I think it's because we're in in the media where and and in movies, people just get pregnant so easily, you know. You you see them in the the scene where they they're having sex and then all of a sudden they're vomiting into a toilet and they're pregnant. and Oh, no what do we do now? um And I thought it would be that easy. So then a couple of relationships later with people who didn't want to have children, i thought, okay, well, I guess I'll convince myself that I don't want to have children. um But then, yeah, I met somebody who I really saw myself having a lot of children with. He had two kids from a previous marriage and so i was like, right, well, let's let's start this party then. let's Let's have a lot of kids. And and so i'd I'd already done the training to be a foster parent and i was about to invite a child into my home but then because I'd gotten together with this this man who had kids from a previous marriage. I thought, oh, look, I'll put that on the back burner while we're doing this. And anyway, so we got pregnant pretty much straight away. um and I thought, well, how easy was that? Look at that. And that wasn't, ah yeah, I was like, I'm very clever. I'm good at this. ah and And it was an ectopic pregnancy, but it was corneal ectopic. And I didn't know, and I didn't do anything about that. corneal ectopic is where it grows on the outside of your uterus.
Speaker: And I just, I thought, I was in pain, I felt disgusting and I thought that's how you feel when pregnant. So I didn't do anything about it. I was directing a fringe show at the time and so just let it play out. And then after it had been there quite a while, I went to the hospital because was in so much pain and I started to bleed. They went, okay, you're in trouble. And I had to have caesarean surgery to remove that because it had sat there for weeks and weeks rotting. My uterus. I'm sorry. That's awful.
Speaker: It was awful and it was I was in hospital a while and I kept having to go back and that was not the dream. that was And it took a long time to get over that. But it was the first of 11 pregnancy losses and no surviving pregnancies at all. um And that was kind of my my journey. ended I'm a foster parent now and I'm still a step-mom, so I've got three beautiful children. But we gave it ah a red-hot go to have children and just I just lost every single one of them. I had two ectopics in the end and nine other losses.
Speaker: And it was, yeah, it was ah a hell of a journey. i found out somewhere in there that I had endometriosis and adenomyosis. as well uh and um antiphospholipid antibodies anything that was seen trifecta right yeah yeah okay like pokemon you gotta catch them all but it was just horrendous so yeah that was my story and i am a teacher by trade and also an entertainer so i got together with the pelvic pain foundation of australia and said look Let's do something about endometriosis. They were already trying to get a schools program happening. So I worked with them on that for endo.
Speaker: I wrote a cabaret show called Endo Days. I wrote a book called Endo Days. And then finally i was ready to write about pregnancy loss, but it took a long time. Yeah. How did you even pick yourself back up? And keep going. Like, I'm just thinking of people here listening today that have had more than one loss that maybe in that recurrent pregnancy loss situation where you were a few years ago. And it's, it's just, I've had four pregnancy after losses. And I just know that each of those was excruciating in its own way. and I just think what's not talked about enough is the, like, and I don't want to say you're strong because you've got no other choice in so many ways. Right. But the ability to put your heart on the line and to try and fall pregnant again,
Speaker: yet knowing that it might not end in a baby in your arms? How did you push through? It's so hard. that is so hard. and And even up until the very last loss, I never lost hope.
Speaker: I always thought that I was going to have a baby, always. and just And even now I'm kind of a little bit bewildered about the fact that I i didn't have one because I just thought it was everybody has a miracle baby.
Speaker: Everybody has that rainbow baby. And I was really shocked that I didn't. And... Yeah, it still it still hurts. um I think when you're in the cycle of trying to conceive, you just keep going. And i think everybody around you, there's a lot of positivity and there's a lot of toxic positivity. Yes. Where people say, oh, next one, next one, just get back on the horse, so to speak. yeah But that's hard to do It's so hard to do. um
Speaker: Yeah, I think i just I just didn't lose hope and whether that is just ridiculous and delusional, I don't know. I just i thought it was going to happen and we just kept trying. i wish I'd gotten therapy. I wish that I'd been referred to a specialist therapy. I was at the end but it really caused some damage. It's only now that I talk about it quite a lot that I'm realising just how much trauma my body and my brain and my heart stored this whole time because I didn't stop.
Speaker: I didn't. I just kept going. That's a mistake. And i I don't think keeping hope was a mistake. I do you feel that not stopping and looking after myself was a mistake. So my my biggest advice that I do, I read through my book again and I realised that I'm pretty repetitive. Having at home, often look after yourself. I didn't and I wish I had.
Speaker: No, I agree. I think that permission slip to firstly grieve the loss without just jumping straight back in again, i think that's so powerful and something that women need to hear um because you're right, we have such a strong desire and so hopeful that we will carry a baby, but sometimes that can veer in that toxic positive psychology side of things and you don't realize it at the time and you're just picking yourself up and going again and again. I just think women are absolutely incredible and partners too, for holding the space through this.
Speaker: Yeah, I think this is what you say as well, that we we don't crash and burn because of the fact that we don't talk about it, but because there's no permission to talk about it because people would think just suck it up and keep going, you know, that that attitude that it's just like another period, it's just a heavy one, it's just, and you keep going. So I think we do talk to ourselves like that as well. and we don't give ourselves permission to, like you say, the permission slip, and you do need to sign your own. Nobody else does it, do they? They they just say to you, you know, all right,
Speaker: next go on a holiday and um just relax it'll happen just relax yeah thought yeah My favourite is just stop trying and I just think do you do you know how this works? I have to try. It's not going to be the immaculate conception here.
Speaker: And it's always from people that surprise you as well as what I found and what I hear as well. It can often be those closest to you that can say the things that actually hurt the most and do the most damage and it's not because they've got ill intent or anything like that. It's Because society has conditioned them to believe that it happens early, it is a heavy period, it's something you just get on with, and because they don't have lived experience, they've got nothing to counterbalance that with. and There's no representation in public media. It's starting to change now. I'm really excited about things that are happening now. But, yeah, I think that then that that's just their belief. There is no different opposition to it still at this stage. Yeah, and it's uncomfortable. It is an uncomfortable conversation. People don't like the the idea that she, you know, is that...
Speaker: that you had a baby and you and it died they don't want to hear about that they love hearing about pregnancy announcements and they love birth announcements but they don't like it and it is uncomfortable but we're probably more uncomfortable I always say you can't upset me anymore than what I already am my baby died like you're not risking upsetting me or triggering me any further by talking about it with me um how did you make the decision or was the decision made for you what happened in the end I was about to start IVF because I thought, I'm just going to give it one last go. I have to just give it one last go because one of the final losses, to one of them because it went for a while, it was looking really good.
Speaker: And the doctor said, oh, your hormones, they're raising, everything's looking great. And I said, cool. can I try some things that I've been looking at? can Can we try me going on corticosteroids and can I try some progesterone pessaries and would it be okay if we tried low-dose aspirin and things that I'd been hearing about? And he said, no, let's just see how it goes.
Speaker: And I said, but I know how it goes. I've i've known time and time again how it goes. Can can I just try it? He said no. And... and And I lost that one.
Speaker: And the next one, like the next couple were, this one's tough because I'm still really angry. Yeah, I'm angry now listening to you. I'm so angry. yeah Because it was, you know, the next couple were, I think there was an ectopic and then there were um chemical pregnancies. Just so angry because it wasn't coming from an uninformed place. I'd been working in the endosphere. ah I'd been chatting with really incredible scientists and and i' and i was, you know, working with the a lot of people who were at top of the big game and I had and and I had these ideas and he just said no and it was it was the last one that was in my uterus uh and I can't help but think every day what could have happened yeah and and whether that would have been the one so yeah yeah so a couple of like ah later i I found a doctor who was also a friend working in the field and she She said, I'm pretty confident that I can get you pregnant and keep you pregnant. And I thought, okay, all right, we're going to do this. So we're going to do IVF.
Speaker: And my husband said, okay, all right, we're going to do it. um And we started the process. So we did the hormone blockers to suppress ovulation and and everything was about to happen. And I just kept waking up every morning with this voice in my head saying, don't do it.
Speaker: Don't do it. This is not the direction. And I thought, this is weird. It was very loud, this thing that I was hearing every morning. And I said, oh, no, no, push it down, push it down. And then one morning i woke up, I said to my husband, I don't think we can do this. I'm tired.
Speaker: I'm really tired. My body's been through a lot. And honestly, i feel like I just wanted... to I want to control over something. I'd just been at the mercy of my uterus for so long and I think i just wanted ah just wanted to control something.
Speaker: And so I said, I'm not going to do it. I want to be a foster parent. And my husband, Matt, said, oh, thank God. Oh, thank God. I was so scared. He said, I thought, you know, this this one might have taken you. You know, like we had some quite a few tricky miscarriages and near-death experiences and all sorts of things. that So he just went, i just I'm so relieved. So the next day we signed up to be foster carers and That is what happened. So, yeah, it's a hard one. I ah ah do think about it sometimes, but I don't actually have any regrets about that.
Speaker: No. It felt right to say no, and I think I just needed to control something. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember that need of control. The need of control was profound for me also. And I hear that time and time again from our community, because if you think about life in general, we are of a generation where we're taught if you work harder, it equals the outcome.
Speaker: So there's a control element that we have built into us from a very young age. And then this is the first thing often for us that we can't work harder at. like I mean, I think an element of you going away doing your research is your way of trying to take some control back. But then you were minimized by a health professional that said no. But yet the evidence now is clear. It's in the Ransgott guidelines now. If there's two, we can do investigations, but there's also evidence for progesterone. And this makes me so angry as well, because I think there's just been this pervasive acceptance that miscarriage is something that just happens. It's women's business. They deal with it in private. Let's leave it alone. Let's not go there.
Speaker: But what they're not hearing, that I'm hearing loudly, is that you now live for the rest of your days with a what if that doctor had allowed me to try progesterone.
Speaker: Yeah. And it might not have worked. No. And that's fine. You would have least tried, right? I would have had a And I, yeah, I'm so angry about it. And i I just don't want that to happen anymore to anyone else. Yes.
Speaker: Who's to say that I didn't have informed agency? it It astounds me that he could look at me directly in the eye and say, no, no well it it actually It would cost him nothing, nothing, to just let me do it. and and Anyway, then we did lose that one. That was that was horrible because when we came in, he went to do the the transvaginal scan to see where we were at and he said,
Speaker: oh, there's no heartbeat here. This is a non-viable pregnancy. And just before that had happened, the nurse was like, oh, I think this is the one. i think And bless her she really didn't mean to, oh, my God, she, oof, that cheery disposition faded real fast as soon as he said the non-viable. He was it you put down the the wand and he said, all right, i get yourself dressed and I'll see you in the office. And it was devastating, devastating.
Speaker: um And I'm not sure whether he even remembered that he had said no to me to try things. And I'm not even sure whether he you know felt what I was feeling, but I went into the office and I sat down in front of him. He finished his email. He looked at me and he said, when are you going to stop doing this to yourself?
Speaker: And I thought, just have a moment. You've just been told your baby has died. In language, it's not appropriate. Non-viable pregnancy, in my opinion, is not okay at that point.
Speaker: You then ushered into another area and know and then that's, no. I'm like, yeah no. And I said, I'm not doing this to myself. I have zero control over this. If it were up to me, i'll have had many babies and they all would have been viable and I would have had a house full of them and it would have been amazing. I'm not doing this to myself. Language is just so important and I am i was still shocked that that there was still... interviewing people for this book and talking to people about the things that they say that there was one woman who said that she she was told that her pregnancy didn't take she was doing IVF uh the you know the was it the transfer didn't take and she said that was incredible the way they spoke to her was the same sort of tone as if they were per cancelling her hair appointment and I think that
Speaker: that sort of I understand that it's your job and and it might feel mechanical, but just don't forget that you're dealing with people and you're dealing with them when they're most vulnerable and they're most anxious.
Speaker: It has to change. It must change. And after eight years of trying, 11 pregnancy losses and just you know so many negative pregnancy tests and and all of the things that I went through there,
Speaker: I've had a lot of experiences. I've had a lot of really good ones. I had great ones. But and because of the sheer volume of appointments and things I had, of course there's going to be some not great ones. And the the not great ones, ooh, they are they're shocking. and then But they're not a surprising story. No, this is the thing. You and I talked about this, right, that it's the the awful part of this is how,
Speaker: common the reaction and how common these experiences are in the health system. I mean, how we're treated in the health system. I don't want to say miscarriage is common. I hate that because you're trying to kind of disenfranchise it by saying that. It's not that.
Speaker: It's how the health system often treats it. There are amazing doctors. There are amazing people in the health system that don't, but there's still a profound number that don't warrant this as the loss that it truly is for that parent right in front of you. And often talk about things like we are literally naked from the waist down often.
Speaker: We are literally in those vulnerable position. You have to apply about wand. It's just got in me where that doesn't feel very good in itself. That's vulnerability. Then you obviously giving me the worst news so that nobody wants and nobody expects a profound shock. If it's your first, maybe not, if it's recurrent, but And the language you use at that point matters so much in how we move on, how we go forward and how we feel. And we had a reference group a few weeks ago, which is community where we ask about experience. And there were things about women not wanting to go back in the health system because of how they've been treated. So they're trying to manage miscarriages at home, which then becomes a health threat as well, because you've got things like ectopics. And know it's just, yeah, I can't go myself. That's enough.
Speaker: Let's, before I get too angry on this, ah and which might make me more angry because I know what's to come next anyway. and Can you talk to me about the experience of a book, but more so from like listening to these women and what they've shared with you?
Speaker: Yeah, I was asked to speak at a fertility conference. And I was excited but also terrified. and I realised that this is not something I'm going to put on my LinkedIn, but I am the worst case scenario. Because I've had all of these pregnancies and absolutely no baby. And and that is...
Speaker: fascinating to doctors, um really sad, really awful. And I realised, okay, all right, that's my niche thing, isn't it? That's that's my special skill. um So I got invited to speak at a conference about the fact that there are some people who they leave they leave treatment without a baby. And this is an important thing for people to hear because of the fact I always had hope because that's what we're told that's what we're shown that everybody has the baby eventually so i i got asked to speak and i and so i did and it was amazing it was amazing because no doctors came to it was at a conference and there were lots of nurses that came there were i spoke at the same one and had the same experience yeah um and that's why i didn't go back and do it again the nurses were that i'm like i'm preaching to the converted often the nurses
Speaker: i mean, they can also say the wrong thing, use the wrong language, but I find there's a difference. But yet the doctors also weren't that because it was a patient experience kind of thing.
Speaker: It wasn't necessarily the clinical science side of things. And I think that needs to change. and In my opinion, in conferences, they need to weave the two together so that we can reach outside of who you would expect to listen to.
Speaker: yeah exactly right and and it was it was i think i was probably up against you know some other headliner you know ever like so my like microbiome or something like i can't even say the word scientific dream and like and i find it interesting how conferences can be divided that way because there's no cross-pollination and there's no kind of and i genuinely think lift experience should be at the center of all of this Because if we don't work from that, why are you even doing this? Like what are your values? Why are you in this? Like it should be about us because we're the ones that are paying for that service if it is IVF that allows you to be in that position. So come at it from what we need. Treat us how we want to be treated and listen to what we're not okay with and change it.
Speaker: Exactly, and there's there's no treatment without us. Nope. So we're literally at the centre of this. Yeah, so there was somebody listening at that conference who said, okay, this simply will not do. She needs to be heard. So I got invited or, you know, recommended to do another one where I was actually the keynote ah speaker. And it was incredible. I got flown over and I put up in a hotel and the room was full and I was like, oh, wow.
Speaker: and they listened they just listened and they asked questions and they were incredible and I am a um um a teacher by trade I'm a comedian by reputation and so i made them laugh I didn't I wasn't a doctor bagging and all that kind of thing no we don't mean to like like the stories speak for themselves but I was able to make them laugh and And then people said to me, oh, have you got a book? And I said, yeah, about endometriosis. And they went, oh, yeah, yeah, but we want something about fertility to pregnancy loss. And I don't say miscarriage. i say pregnancy loss because
Speaker: miscarriage feels like I did something wrong and I didn't so pregnancy loss is kind of my vibe the book is called a common misconception and it's a how-to guide for miscarriage infertility ah um and grief but that's because I have I'm a slave to the algorithm I need to put miscarriage in there yeah so we have it on our website for SEO reasons so people can find it we use it because it's the language that exists now But we agitate where we can and try and change that. And for me as well, even pregnancy loss. I had Christy Hayes on the podcast just last week. She'll be part season three as well. And we talked about we haven't lost a set of keys. We haven't put something down and forgotten where it is. I haven't. This happened to me. My baby died. Can we? And I think there's a kind of tension at the moment. And I think the community is trying to work out.
Speaker: what they can hold space for, what doesn't hurt them too much yet, what they're ready for. And i feel like it will change. And I feel like that's more of a generational change, but I agree wholeheartedly. The language around this experience is medical.
Speaker: It's a patriarchy and it's fine. It's just been given a label. It's been accepted. this and like said, I talked about it earlier, pervasive acceptance and just left. And then it takes us, the victims, to say, not okay with that.
Speaker: like But we need to be heard. Absolutely, yeah. So i talked I talked about that at this conference. I talked about so many different things and then they asked me, do you have a book about about miscarriage? And and i was like, no, no, no, and I thought, not ready for that. I'm not ready for that. Then I got asked to go to another conference and then another one and I started talking to the doctors and I started talking to the practitioners and and all of these allied health people and I went, okay, they're asking for help. They were incredible. the you doctors at the top of their game were saying we need help reaching people because we need them to do things to help us help them and I thought you know that's the thing isn't it the silence around losing a baby is such that we can't help
Speaker: them to help us and they can't help us to help them either because there's this divide it's like we know when you when you have a pregnancy loss or a non-viral pregnancy they say look go home deal with it and if it gets scary give us a call what's always scary when is it not just gonna say that what's scary because your definition of scary would be different to mine so it's it's ironic that a medical professional is giving you language in that way as well because then that's not clear enough And what do we know? Clarity is kindness. So when we're not clear, it's then like, oh, I don't feel like I'm making the right decision. I even know. Like I had one loss at home at three in the morning, in huge volume of blood loss. I wasn't sure what was normal or not. And I was like, where do I go? I'm on Google. And I'm i'm an educated woman going. I know I shouldn't be on Google, but there's literally, this is before I started pick elements, but there was nowhere for me to find information. i didn't want to call triple zero because it didn't feel life-threatening.
Speaker: But there was no in between. There was no midwife on call that I could just give a quick call to and go, hey, I've soaked this many pads. This is where I'm at. And that probably could have been enough for me, right? That probably could have been a reassuring voice who was a medical professional on the end of a phone to hold me until I could go to an early pregnancy assessment service the next day. But there wasn't that.
Speaker: So it's Google, right? And it's still that now. Like 10 years later, we have Health Direct. Women can call nurses, but they don't know that exists. there's not enough awareness about it. And so again, we're still Googling in the middle of the night what's normal. We don't want to bother anyone as well. we're You know, because we're not supposed to talk about it. right and We've been told, oh, it's okay, it's fine, just go home and deal with it. And I i did go home and deal with it. i actually had a i had a DNC. I went home and and they're like, well, you know, you should you should be fine, um should be, but give us a call it gets scary. and And it started to get scary and I felt really sick. And then i
Speaker: I went back to work way too early, I'd run out of sick days and and I thought, okay, I've got to get on with it you' got to get on with it. You know, chin up and stiff up yeahp and all that. So I i went um back to work and I thought, I just want to hide in the library and as well working at a school as a teacher.
Speaker: And I thought just need a little bit of private time. So I went to hide in the library and it was up a a flight of stairs. um and as I was going up the stairs a friend of mine went hey let me where you been because I've been off off work but I didn't want to tell anyone that I had been and I turned around to look at her and I I woke up on the bottom bottom of the stairs so I just passed out and I'd and I'd uh I'd fallen downstairs anyway at home later I realized I didn't I'd really messed myself up I had I'd smashed my face I had you there's all the skin was off my knee my knee was huge I was and I was laying on the couch and I was all wet no why am I all wet and I realized I was bleeding I was bleeding fiercely like really intensely and I rang the doctor I said hey i' just I'm bleeding and it's really bad. And they're like, oh, look, it's fine. you you
Speaker: You're okay. It'll be all right. You probably just shook something up when you when you fell down the stairs. and I said, oh Really? Because i' I've had the cure out, like I had the DNC. like Should i have anything in there to to stir up?
Speaker: and I was genuinely asking the question because I don't like to bother anyone, Sam. I'm ah um'm a chronic people pleaser. we are i right some generations Yeah, I'm sorry to bother you, but I'm just, you know Anyway, they were like, you're fine. You'll be right. Just ice that knee and and get some rest. And I did. And i got sicker. and sicker and and And I rang again. i thought I'm really sorry to bother you, but I don't think I'm okay. I keep fainting. And they're like, no, no, no, it's fine. We'll pass on your message to the doctor. ah And he'll give you call back if he feels he needs to. at This went on for a couple of days until finally was vomiting. I was not good.
Speaker: And I text the doctor. I feel i found his number on the internet. And I text him and I said, hey, listen, this is what's going on. I don't know. Am I okay? And he said,
Speaker: maybe an emergency right now, ah I think that you ah have an infection. And so I went to emergency. he He said he didn't get any of my messages. Now, I don't know whether he just said that or whether they actually genuinely didn't pass any of those messages on. but By the time I got to the hospital, I was um i was actually passing clots. I had a huge infection. i was toxic. um And I was passing these clots the size of tennis balls trying to get through my cervix and I was in massive pain. And I was really, really sick. yeah I was so sick. And probably my life was was at risk and, yeah, but they just said just go home and deal with it. And it's this kind of dismissal, this dismissal that clearly the body knows what it wants to do because women know, you know, we have this natural ability do the work.
Speaker: Yeah, but we don' we don't. It doesn't mean it's not scary to us, though, we either. doesn't mean we don't deserve compassion in that moment. Yeah. like And reassurance. You may have seen this again and again and again because it does happen a lot. But it doesn't mean to me it's happened a lot this specific way. And even for you, you've had several pregnancy losses. It still was a unique experience in itself. Right. it wasn't the same as the other ones. Yeah, were they were all different. I had 11 and pretty much every one of them was different. And I think it's that, that ah it's I think it's medical misogyny. I think that there's this idea that that women are being a bit dramatic. But the situation was dramatic and i could have died from that because I was very, very ill.
Speaker: And I wonder about you know other women that have called up and said, look, I need help. Yeah. How many of us get into that much trouble? it's or Or just don't call after that because one of my next ones was of an ectopic and what if I just hadn't called because I was worried that they were going to dismiss me? It's it's ridiculous. So thought I'm going to put together a resource. um When I've had my first loss, I desperately needed help and i I went to the internet, as you do, and There was nothing like, well, you weren't around for me yet. and I'm so glad that you are now. My goodness, like what you're doing is phenomenal. it's
Speaker: It's so easy to understand. It's laid out beautifully and it's right there. And I didn't have that and there was another group that was on hiatus at the time and I was like, oh, good timing.
Speaker: And there was only global growth. Facebook groups and they were like the wild west my god you go in there and then oh it was it was terrifying as in the beginning I was like oh no this doesn't feel right either this is the other extreme like yeah it's not kind of sensible middle ground that kind of shared with empathy and that's kind of where we came from at it it was like it was all a lot of sensationalizing and other ones and a lot of them you would read things and what I used to find as well I did at the end they'd be selling one like kind of vitamin or pill that would be your miracle cure and I'd be like oh right so that whole thing's not true because you've basically been working to that point and then I'd be really angry and feel even more isolated yeah yeah yeah yeah shocking and and I found that it was quite catastrophic and then
Speaker: There were people who were, because like where they were moderated, these groups were moderated, and then there were there was these pictures, really graphic pictures, where someone was like taking a photo of what they'd lost and gone,
Speaker: you know, can you see a face in this or something? I'm like, oh, my Lord. So I like you needed a middle ground. And i also wanted to know what was what. I i didn't really, I knew what an ectopic pregnancy was because my my sister had had one. so But I didn't know what a corneal ectopic was. now And I didn't know that I should have dealt with that a lot sooner and I i didn't know that you could get an infection after you'd had a DMC and I didn't know what the symptoms were.
Speaker: And I didn't know where to ask about that because once I'd been told this is non-viable or, you know, there's no heartbeat, they don't sort of go, all right, here are the things that could happen to you and here's what you should.
Speaker: You know, like when you go in for surgery and they say, here's the side effects and here's the risks and there was done a lot none of that, none. And every time, every single time I lost a baby, they would I didn't know what could happen next. It was always going to be a choose your own adventure. um And so I wanted to lay that out for people so that they could have a look at it. And because I'll tell some funny stories and make some silly jokes, it'll make them laugh at a time they need it most. But also they can hear stories from other people so they don't feel alone.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. i think this story i didn't under I massively underestimated that in the beginning. the power of like story hell, which is ironic because that's something that I'm quite strong at, but I didn't realize how powerful it is for people to hear other people's stories, even with this podcast. Like the intention with this podcast was one series done. Like we were doing the miscarriage rebellion to agitate government so that we could get some funding. We had it alongside like a petition as well at the same time. And then what actually happened was our community were messaging us saying,
Speaker: we want more stories. we I really like listening on my way to work. It makes me feel validated and strong enough to carry on again. Like ah all these things from women and we're like, okay, right. So kind doubled down and continued on with it. But yeah, you're right. And ah I feel like that's what's going to be great about your book as well. There's some really good stories. that There's some positive ones. There's a woman who used a surrogate and so she's telling her, she told the whole story. She wrote it, sent it to me, and I was like, right, I'm just going I'm copying that and we're just going it's completely in her words. We hear from some men who have gone through the loss as well. um And we do, you know, there's one woman who got donor eggs as well, so there's stories of infertility as well as miscarriage. And there's there's good stories for those people like me who never got to have a baby. And I think that's the thing is that but once we hear that we're not alone, but we we need to hear,
Speaker: experiences from people whether whether or not you want you want to hear that you're not alone in the fact that you never had a baby or that you need to hear that somebody has a baby whatever you need there's somebody out there who feels it too 100% and that's kind of what I want to like almost kind of get to a point of finish with you and end on like what's it like now for you being where you are now going through what's happened to you but having this wonderful experience of being a foster mom and a stepmom to your other with the two as well like how does that feel how have things landed for you now
Speaker: I've finally made peace with not ever having a baby. i know that that I needed my foster son as much as he needed me. needed to mend each other's broken hearts and that's been phenomenal. he Every single day yeah we we find something new and exciting to laugh about and he's brought so much joy. He's hard work but so am I and it's it's pretty, it's wonderful. i i don't know quite what my life would have been if I didn't have him cry Yeah, he's pretty sad.
Speaker: When I think about how we found each other and and what we mean to each other, it's, you know, don't really have the words for how he's filled my heart.
Speaker: I love that. it's it's ah It's been, we've saved each other's lives, I think. But I'm ah helping people and wanting to do be better and do better and is sort of at the centre of what i want to do with everything. And so i wrote this book and I do what I do so that people don't feel shitty and alone like we did. Yeah.
Speaker: And that's what you do and that's why i love what you do. One organisation can't do this alone. So I love the fact that, like, we love what you're doing and when you reached out, i was like, yeah, happy to be part of it. And I just think that the more of us that come together in this space to be there and be a different type of representation for different people, i think the less alone and the quicker we'll get to where we want to go so that everyone has connection and support, that no one goes through this alone, right?
Speaker: but yeah Yeah, let's change the whole conversation. Yeah. We are. We are. yeah my love it. I can't thank you enough for giving us your time and your wisdom and for sharing and also including Pink Alice within the book as well. like i think so Thank you for doing what you're doing. I'm so grateful that you exist. It was neither, but not just the fact that you do you're doing it in language that connects and and language that's easy to understand and feels warm and it feels like empathy and it it feels like friendship and community and that is the most important thing because you you lose a lot of friends when this happens yeah you lose so many friends people get awkward and they get uncomfortable and they think well i won't talk to her it's almost like they can catch it as well i remember after my second loss and then it was a bit like people literally on the side of the road and was like oh don't
Speaker: so you can't catch it. I've not got a cold. Like, come on. like Exactly. Yeah. And I'm not mad that they're pregnant. Like, I'm not upset they're pregnant. i'm I'm upset I'm not. Because what I've lost in losing a baby is as much of that as they have gained in having one.
Speaker: And that that I think is the most important message that I, that i like writing the book, taught me is that I'm not a shitty person. that i'm I'm not upset that you're pregnant. I'm not upset that you've just announced it and you've done your bump photos. I'm not. I'm upset that I didn't get to. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And that's not how I feel about you. um i would love to be you right now. We can be both, right? We can be happy for you but sad for us. Exactly. And again, like society's narratives around emotions and we can like they're very light linear and like patriarchal. You can be one thing at one time and stoic and all that and you're like, no, no, no. I can feel both these things at the same time.
Speaker: I can actually feel joy that you're carrying a baby but and you get to carry. I know how precious that baby is because of what's happened to me. And I can feel immense sadness and grief for me. And then I can also be jealous that you got to keep your baby and I didn't get to keep mine. Like, why? i wouldn't know. And we don't know. And that's hard, too. So, yeah, I think normalizing all of these different complex feelings is yet really important.
Speaker: Yeah. one Thank you so, so much. I am so grateful. and can't wait to share this with everyone. I know it's going to be a huge and help for many, many women out there. So thanks again. Thanks, Sam.
