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Episode 432: Interview with Tacoma Defiance head coach Wade Webber
82 Plays2 years ago
One of the most interesting people in the Seattle soccer scene is undeniably Wade Webber. The Tacoma Defiance head coach is from Federal Way, helped the Sounders win two A-League titles, played several years in MLS, became a high school history teacher and helped run Washington Premier before joining the Sounders as an academy coach.
For the last three seasons, he’s headed Defiance, overseeing easily their most successful stretch during their nine seasons of existence. The Defiance have now won back-to-back Pacific Division titles in MLS Next Pro and have a chance finish with their best-ever regular season with two games remaining.
During our interview, we discuss some of what is behind the Defiance’s success, learn a bit more about Sam Adeniran’s departure, get a scouting report on Braudilio Rodrigues and navigate some cat issues.
In the subscriber-only portion of the interview, we also discuss the improvements Reed Baker-Whiting has made this season, the emergence of Snyder Brunell and get the story behind the banana bread phenomena.
SponsorsNos Audietis is the flagship podcast for Sounder at Heart, which became a reader-supported website on Aug. 21. You can support us by becoming a paid subscriber, learn more: https://www.sounderatheart.com/about/
You can also support the show by checking out our line of merch including every past YachtCon design and our latest skull-and-crossbones logo.
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Transcript
Sponsorships and Introductions
00:00:00
Speaker
This episode of Nos Arietes is sponsored by Full Pull Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of Nos Arietes since 2011. Full Pull was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime sounder supporters. They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, the Pacific Northwest.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hey, this is Christian Roldan. And Jordan Morris from the Seattle Sounders Football Club. And you're listening to... There's no study at this. Thanks to Watson's Counter for sponsoring this episode. Located in Ballard, Watson's Counter is your neighborhood specialty coffee shop, brunch spot, and now, coffee roaster. Sourcing exclusively high scoring coffees, Watson's Counter has started their coffee roasting project to showcase amazing coffees grown around the world. Their first featured coffee is the beautifully complex washed Ethiopian Odola.
00:00:50
Speaker
Follow them on Instagram at Watson's Counter to keep up with all the upcoming releases or check out their website at www.watsonscounter.com. Whether you want to stop by for your daily coffee to go or sit down for delicious Korean inspired brunch, Watson's Counter has got you covered.
00:01:14
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Noce Adietes, sponsored by Full Pool Wines and Watson's Counter. I am Jeremiah O'Shan.
Tacoma Defiance's Championship Journey
00:01:21
Speaker
Joining me today is coach of the Pacific Division Champion, Tacoma Defiance, Wade Webber. How are you doing, Wade? I'm great. I'm great. Our cat is down at my feet and I'm hoping that she doesn't attack me here. She's got her tail up. I'm not sure what's going on.
00:01:42
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. That'll be interesting. Might make for an interesting bit of the podcast. So Defiance, this is a back-to-back division champions, right? Yes, yes. MLS Next Pro, it's the second year they've existed. So this division's only existed as a competition for two years, but we've won it both years, which is great.
00:02:10
Speaker
Yeah. And especially for Defiance who didn't have a history of, of winning, frankly, prior to your taking over the, the, as the head coach during that final season of USL championship, where you guys just barely missed the playoffs. It had been, had been a while where Defiance had really struggled for results. Do you chalk that up to your coaching genius or is there something else at play here?
00:02:37
Speaker
I hope you think that I'm going to answer that there's something else at play here. Actually, I would have hoped that you said, no, it's my coaching genius. That's just not how I see how the coaching experience works.
00:02:52
Speaker
It's always collaborative. There's a lot of factors that go into success and lack of success. And it's seldom any one person's, well, I'd say it's never any one person's responsibility in a team setting. So we had a really solid group of players that were put together for that 21 season.
00:03:14
Speaker
And the staff, frankly, is exceptional. We have had multiple defiant staff members move up to the first team because their performance has been so good, let alone guys like, I guess, there's been quite a few in my time. The Jackson, Regan, Obed, Vargas were both members of the 21 team. And they're now consistently starting for the first team or certainly getting a lot of minutes.
Challenges in Player Turnover and Competitiveness
00:03:42
Speaker
It's a combination of everything. I do think that what we've got now in defiance, and we've tried to define it, and I don't know if that's
00:03:54
Speaker
That might be too strong of a word to define, because I don't know that I could give you the definition. But we want to be a team that every game we play, there's a result that matters on the line. And in the three years I've been the head coach, that's been the case. We've never been out of the playoffs until literally the last day in 21, when at halftime, we were still in it at Phoenix.
00:04:22
Speaker
a difficult place to go back in the day. And I just think that one of the things that if I were to take some pride in is that we've turned the roster over tremendously since that time, since the 21 season. I'm trying to think, I don't think there's Juan Alvarez is still here. He was on the 21 team.
00:04:49
Speaker
Cody Baker came in to about. He was an Academy player at the beginning of the year. Sign was a fine.
00:04:56
Speaker
Reed had moved to the first game. Oh, I see. There are players that are on the first... Yeah, okay. Signed second team players. I think Juan Alvarez is the only one left from the 2021 season. And was he even a signed player? Was he already signed? He was, okay. We signed him at the beginning of the year in the winter and he played... He had 21, 23 appearances
Importance of Recruitment and Development
00:05:23
Speaker
as a...
00:05:25
Speaker
What was he 17 year old or turned 17 that year and he's still with us, but you know, it's hard to, it's hard to have that kind of turnover and still be competitive at any level. And, you know, I would just use the LA teams as an example. Um.
00:05:41
Speaker
L.A. Galaxy were a competitive U.S.L. team for many years, difficult to beat, a lot of first team involvement, solid base signed directly to the second team. And now they're
00:05:58
Speaker
Uh, you know, they're second to bottom in our conference and LAFC who were Las Vegas lights, uh, last place in our conference rail monarchs who have had a good USL team. They've finished outside the playoffs, uh, the last two years. So it it's, it's not as easy as maybe we've made it look. And I give a lot of credit to the recruitment department. That's identified players like broad deal or Rodriguez hack like Sam Adena.
00:06:28
Speaker
who we brought in in 21 to replace Justin Dillon, really, who had been that scorer for the second team. We had to replace our entire attack this last season, Alfonso Campo Chavez, who was the first team player. But he's now at Austin, and Marlon Vargas is now in Colorado. And these guys were so important for us. And we found players who've not only just
00:06:56
Speaker
Uh, fit it in, but they've actually maybe in some ways raised the level. So it's, um, it's
Focus on Training Over Games
00:07:03
Speaker
great. Mike Morris, my, uh, uh, uh, assistant coach, I can't give him enough credit for the job he does every day at, you know, demanding standards be high. I like to think that, that maybe starts with me, but it doesn't, there's no drop off. Um, with him, both of us expect the most difficult thing every week. The most important thing every week is training.
00:07:27
Speaker
And I know games are the thing that everyone watches and everyone is excited to do, players included. But we train four times for every game we play and the progress that you'll make as a player comes at training far more than in games. You need the games to give you a sense of where you're going and what you're doing and how you're developing.
00:07:51
Speaker
without the training environment being competitive, at times, uncomfortable. And I think that's the, you know, we want our top talents to be uncomfortable. I don't want Stuart Hawkins to have easy training sessions. Stuart has got a high ceiling, and he needs to play against players that are going to test him every day at training. I mean, we've got
00:08:16
Speaker
Every day at training, he needs to be tested against people who are faster and bigger and stronger than him. And if he's going to develop and ever be a first team player, it's going to be because of what he does at training that prepares him for competition. And I think that we've done a really good job of creating an environment that is sometimes unpleasant. We've had broken noses.
00:08:45
Speaker
We've had things that training that you wouldn't want, but there's a line that if you're not pushing that line, if you're too worried about how much the players can handle, then you'll never find out what they can handle. You wind up underselling them.
00:09:04
Speaker
We do a good job in that regard. If nothing else, we do a good job in making a very competitive training environment that prepares players to make the jump to the first team field. Whether or not they ever sign is secondary. If players are playing because they want to make money,
Changes in MLS Next Pro Playoffs
00:09:32
Speaker
They're never going to make it, you know, they have to play because they want to, they want to win. They want to compete and fight and scrap. And, and that's how, and you wind up making money as a result of doing that successfully. But you know, you can't put the cart before the horse, um, and, and have any kind of long-term career.
00:09:51
Speaker
Well, I'm curious if this play, this may be a harsh transition, but I think it might make sense. You know, this year, MLS next pro instituted a bunch of sort of tweaks to their playoff format. One of them is you are seated by your point total, but you get to pick your opponent. Uh, what, what, what do you, like, is that, is that, is that, does that ramp up the competitiveness? Is it purely a.
00:10:20
Speaker
Like a like a attention-grabbing type of thing. Do you like it? What's your philosophy going into this assuming you have second pick of who you get to play?
00:10:30
Speaker
Yeah, I don't, what I would say is I really have been happy with the move from U.S.L. Championship to MLS Next Pro. It is more professional. There's a lot of things about the U.S.L. that are more competitive. The environments that you go into are far more hostile. Sacramento on a Saturday night with a full stadium is difficult. And we miss that. We don't get that in our competition
00:11:00
Speaker
But the level of preparation for all the teams we play, the level of first team involvement. So we're actually playing on the road against teams that are sometimes stacked with first team players. And so for our guys, it's week to week.
00:11:21
Speaker
The tactical preparation, I mean, they were in the USL, it was obvious. Nobody prepared to play us. They didn't, they couldn't tell you who the players were, who the key players were. It's, MLS Next Pro has a, you know, they're using the MLS structures. So we have first team analysts.
00:11:41
Speaker
that will assist sometimes in what we're doing. We have our own analysts. We scout opponents. We prepare game plans for every week that are unique. And so what MLS has done with the no ties, every drawn match has to end in the shootout. I really like that. It gives the opportunity to add that extra point, which feels like a win.
00:12:10
Speaker
And and uh, they've they've got the timed like you've got a certain number of seconds to get off the field if you're getting substituted to cut down on time wasting all the time wasting stuff like You know if a trainer comes on the field if you're down for 15 seconds the trainer comes on the field you got to sit out for three minutes as you're playing a man down for three minutes And guess what it's cut down dramatically on people faking injuries You know surprise surprise You don't want to be down. Who would you guess? Crazy crazy
00:12:40
Speaker
So I really think they've done a good job in trying these things out. And who knows if they ever translate, matriculate up into MLS. But I do think that there's much to be said about them. To pick your opponent, choose your adventure, if you will. There you go. I like that. To me, all it does is
00:13:06
Speaker
I don't think I'm speaking out of turn. It's just creating bullet and board material, assuming anyone even has it. It almost seems like it's designed to create bullet and board material. Yeah. I can't say for certain, if we do wind up with the second or third seed, we will get to pick our opponent in at least the first round.
00:13:27
Speaker
I can't say for certain what we'll do just because we haven't had that discussion yet where we still have some games to go to finish. But I'm not interested in playing that game. And I would rather... I mean, it might be that there is a matchup that we go, listen, we're just better against that team and we'd really rather avoid the other team.
00:13:50
Speaker
Um, or in a weird way of thinking, you know, if we're, again, I, I haven't given it the thought it Colorado's the number one seed. They will be the number one seed. Maybe we think there's a matchup that Colorado struggles with and we start thinking, well, if we, if we don't pick them that they're, you know, anyway, I, I just did, did they get a buy in the first round? Is that how it works? Yeah. Yeah. 17 is great.
00:14:17
Speaker
Seven teams make it. The number one seed doesn't play the first round. And then two through seven battle for three spots to then move to the summer. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That was one I did think.
00:14:33
Speaker
There was a little, it felt a little more gimmicky than some of the, like the other stuff I get, I definitely understand the shootouts, the time wasting stuff that all feels like, Hey, maybe this makes sense. And I know there's always been discussion of wouldn't it be great if teams could pick their opponents. And I've always thought it made from a competitive standpoint. It just, it feels so forced and like unnecessary, but
00:14:57
Speaker
I would prefer, I would prefer a perfect world.
Unbalanced Schedules in Sports Leagues
00:15:01
Speaker
There being a balanced schedule, you play everybody home and away once. And, and, and then the seating is, is true. You know, you really do, but we played, um, our, we will, these last two games of the season, the against rail monarchs on Friday and against, um,
00:15:21
Speaker
Vancouver on the following Sunday. That'll be the third time we've played both of them. Everybody else, we've played twice. So until we get an adequate number of teams, you're going to have an unbalanced schedule. And that's the nature of American sports, I guess.
00:15:42
Speaker
Other than those very brief periods in MLS, I think there was maybe two or three seasons in MLS where they had a perfectly balanced schedule. And other than that, the history of MLS has been unbalanced.
00:15:57
Speaker
So I wanted to talk to you about a few players and we may as well start you. You had mentioned Sam and Denerin and Bradilia Rodriguez, and they seem like good places to start in terms of your assessments. Uh, uh, Denerin obviously is no longer with the Sounders. He's he's with St. Louis scored his eighth goal last night. What, what did you see in him? And are you at all surprised by the way that he, his game has ultimately translated to MLS?
Sam Adeniran's Progression to MLS
00:16:22
Speaker
No, I'm not surprised. Sam came to us, Henry Bronner saw him at a combine of some sort and we had him in for a preseason invite and we signed him and
00:16:37
Speaker
uh and you know he is it just one of those things you you think that guy is a striker um he's got great athleticism technically very good uh left-footed but also good in the air and not a donkey with his right foot i mean he's he's okay with his right foot um and for us it was just you know a question that in 21 it was fascinating because
00:17:06
Speaker
he was a poor defender. And I could, I don't think, he and I still text occasionally, but I don't think he would be insulted by me saying he was a poor defender. He didn't, I don't think he was that interested in it. He'd maybe never been asked to defend from the front. And St. Louis is one of those kind of high pressure in your face, pretty vertical teams. So it's clear he can do it.
00:17:32
Speaker
But for us and the second team, we had this saying for a long time that I created the slogan, but I don't know if I didn't have any help. It was, you don't defend your way into the first, sorry, you don't score your way into the first team, you defend your way into the first team. I said that for players in my team, knowing that you could score your way into the first team.
00:17:59
Speaker
20 goals or whatever, you know, you're probably going to get a same contract, right. But it was to try and light the fire under them defensively knowing that if, if you're a hardworking defender focused on that, and you have the ability to score, then you got a much shorter path to the first team than someone, all they can do is score at
00:18:21
Speaker
the MLS next pro or USL level. I mean, there is a gap, right? It's a difference between those two leagues, a big difference, athletically for sure. And Sam, I tell you, in preseason in 21, he was so bad at defending that I didn't even put him on the roster for our first two games. Some people don't know that. He didn't start till our sixth game.
00:18:48
Speaker
Uh, because he just wasn't prepared. Well, he, he didn't understand that I was being serious that you actually have to defend. Um, and then once he sorted it out and figured it out, he slotted in wonderfully. I mean, he had 13 goals and, um,
00:19:06
Speaker
We played him actually more on a left wing with a lot of freedom to come inside and an overlapping left back. So he had a great year. And it's one of those things, the first team, you could look back in retrospect and say, OK, well, why isn't Sam with the first team? A-Bear is a proven MLS goal scorer. Raul.
00:19:33
Speaker
I mean, come on. And Montoro adds more than just contributions on the field. I mean, he's a locker room presence. He's that old head that you want around young guys. It was probably a numbers game, and I don't for a second.
00:19:52
Speaker
think the first team made a mistake. I know that a lot of people would say, well, it's obvious that they made a mistake. It's only obvious in retrospect. And as you look back and you say, well, okay, if this guy had scored eight goals for our first team, we'd be super excited about him. But who's on the bench, right? Is he going to displace Raul? Is he going to displace Jordan or Christian when he's healthy? Or is he just not getting minutes and he's playing with the coma defiance?
00:20:17
Speaker
Um, and I, I think that nobody wanted that reality for him. He's too, I mean, he's not old. He's 25, but way turns 25 on September 30th. And I know that I don't memorize players' birthdays. He shares a birthday with my wife. So just like Obed Vargas is August 5th. That's a, that's our anniversary. So, um,
00:20:38
Speaker
Yeah, but but Sam's going to be 25 in a couple weeks and you know he's got to play, he's got to play, and yeah it would be great if you were scoring for Seattle, but I just think in in the long term that's not how
00:20:54
Speaker
I don't think that's how rosters are constructed. You don't cast aside a veteran just to sign a younger guy unless there is unequivocal evidence that that's the right call. I don't know that that evidence was unequivocal. I love the guy. Sam is a great dude.
00:21:15
Speaker
Just forget about the goal scoring and stuff. He's a really, really nice guy. We had no issues with him at all. I'm so happy for him. And the job of Defiance is to produce first team players. And we want it to be for the Sounders. But I look at Sam Rogers, and I take just as huge source of pride. Jesse Daly was a second team player. He's playing in the Canadian Premier League.
00:21:45
Speaker
Even if playing first team in the USL like Villanueva and Serrano and these guys are competing at a good level and they've come through our system and we're really, really excited for them and they're not all going to be sounders and I'm over that. It's not an ego thing. I just want to make sure that if they sign with us, they can move on and have some success somewhere else.
00:22:11
Speaker
Well, and it seems like Bredilio Rodriguez is a player who could potentially fit into a similar sort of story. You know, he's, as you know, but as our listeners may or may not know, he was drafted by New York City FC. He came to the Defiance on an MLS Next Pro contract, but he was to go to MLS, the Sounders would have to work out a deal.
00:22:33
Speaker
If they wanted to bring him in, I don't know what the his exact situation is But he's having an amazing season scored another goal last night another well-taken goal. He's got 13 goals. I think four assists I he's gonna probably end the season I would think as the well, I guess it depends he needs one more goal right to to set the team Yeah, I think so. I'd I'd have to confirm that but he got last year, but yeah
00:22:58
Speaker
I mean, in any case, he's been a really fun player to watch. I don't think anyone watches this player and thinks like he doesn't have the abilities to play professional, high level professional soccer. But what do you make of his game? Where do you see his future? How do you think he'll translate?
Bradilio Rodriguez's Potential in MLS
00:23:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question. And I think that the thing that we've seen with Bradilio is that he is a professional.
00:23:30
Speaker
You know, another thing that I say, and the Academy kids get sick of hearing it maybe, but that you don't, like I asked them the question, when do you think you become a professional? And some of them will answer, well, when I sign a contract. And that's not the right answer. The right answer is when you behave and play like one. You will never get the contract if you don't have the behaviors of a pro.
00:23:54
Speaker
On and off the field and, you know, last week I came in on a defiance off day to do some work with our Academy. And we're in the stadium at Starfire and I turned my head and walking into the stadium is brought dealio and
00:24:08
Speaker
He's there to get a bag of balls because he wants to work on something. He doesn't have to be in. He's playing. He's our leader in minutes. And games started. And games played. And he's in. He understands that you come early. You stay late. You don't count the hours. You do what you need to do every day to prepare for the next day. And that's kind of the starting point. He has gotten physically stronger.
00:24:37
Speaker
The performance plan that we have in place has improved his overall physical profile. He's hitting more meters per second, larger doses of high speed running per game.
00:24:54
Speaker
more total, total distance, he's doing all these things as a result of playing the longest season he's ever played as as whether it's in college or even as a kid. We're really pushing him and he's.
00:25:11
Speaker
we've yet to break him. You know, we've pushed him to a point and he's still going and he's still going. So he's such an important part of our group. And for those who haven't seen him play, but maybe have heard his name, we can play with both feet. He's tall, but he's not like a big power, like classic nine. He plays in pockets.
00:25:38
Speaker
He likes to be on a wing. He likes to combine with others. I think our leader in assists, Rothrock might be right there with him. Yeah.
00:25:49
Speaker
And, you know, he takes goals with both feet and with his head, the goal he scored on Sunday against San Jose was really well taken. And he had just missed one earlier with his head. So I think he is, you know, I think he's an MLS level player for sure. You know, his age is another thing. He's 24.
00:26:14
Speaker
he's an international so do you want your internationals to be you know the young dp type um you know they can't all be you don't get that many of them so you know would he slot in to uh the sounders i mean i
00:26:30
Speaker
He has trained with our first team. They certainly know who he is. They like him. It's not a question for this year. It's a question for probably the off season. Does he fit in to the future plan? Craig Weibel has got quite the job because I haven't seen it for certain. But I think there's a lot of people out of contract at the end of the year. A lot of contract discussions, a lot of options.
00:26:56
Speaker
Yes. Over half the roster actually is either up for an option or out of contract at the end of the year.
00:27:03
Speaker
That's a big number. That's a big number. It's a big number. And over half the salary cap roster, not that, I don't need to get into this with you, but yes, there's a lot of flexibility this offseason. Yeah. So does he fit into those plans in the future? Maybe. But that's not really for me to say. It's like our job is every day just to try and get them a little closer.
00:27:29
Speaker
to fill in the gaps of what might be missing in a guy's game. I think Bradilio, when he came in, was not similar to Sam. He was not defend first. But like Sam, he has embraced it. And we're better with him on the field in all phases of play. And he's just been a real joy. Some of the goals he's scored have been
00:27:54
Speaker
You know the sort like the bird camp goal against Newcastle all those years ago where he goes around the Greek center back with hits it with his left spins to the right. Like how did that happen? And there have been a couple of those where we on the bench look at each other. Did we just see that? Yeah, he doesn't.
00:28:13
Speaker
I was going to say he doesn't seem to have a type of goal. He just scores a lot. He seems to find new ways to score. It's not like he's lining up headers or scoring. I mean, he does have some penalties, but he's just, the thing that struck me is just the variety of his arsenal sort of that he's, he's just knows how to find the back of the net.
00:28:32
Speaker
Yeah. And not a lot of penalties because AB, I think has four or five. We've scored eight. We've scored eight penalties this year. AB has four or five, how Uteritz has at least one. So, you know, he's got a couple of them, but most of his goals are legitimate in the run of play. And yeah, he's, he's not a big,
00:28:53
Speaker
mean guy. He's, he, he ghosts and he's a shadow and his, his movement. I use the analogy that, you know, there are formula one cars and NASCAR's right. And, and he has got multiple gears in the train. He's not just foot to the floor. He is, he can slow it down and speed it up. And he's a Jamie Moyer fastball for you old Mariner fans.
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00:29:27
Speaker
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00:29:43
Speaker
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00:30:45
Speaker
Let's win another one!