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Episode 10. - Behind the Curtain: Zach Unfiltered
45 Plays2 years ago
In an unmissable episode of The Study Pipe, Andrew flips the script, putting Zach in the hot seat with a barrage of blindsiding questions about the ever-evolving world of cinema. From the heated debate on streaming platforms and cinema's magic, to the controversial realm of filmmaker ethics, and the modern-day relevance of film canons - no topic is off-limits. Join us as we unpack cinema's most pressing dilemmas, challenge popular opinions, and dive deep into what makes movies more than just flickering images on a screen.
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Transcript
Reunion and '12 Years a Slave' Discussion
00:00:25
Speaker
Welcome back, people. It's study pipe time. How's it going, Andrew? Going well. It feels like it's been about 10 years and two months and three days since we last talked. Seven years a slave. Yeah, right. Actually 12 years. That's the prequel. Yeah, right. I'm waiting for that one. It's going to be my opening night.
00:00:49
Speaker
Man, that's that movie, 12 Years a Slave. The scene when he apologized to his family at the end for something that wasn't in his control and he's crying. That
Introduction of 'Film Reel' Episode Format
00:01:00
Speaker
got me, man. That destroyed me. That was a heavy-headed movie. Maybe he'd never liked Michael Fassbender again. Yeah. Dude, he played a villain, man. A mean, mean villain. No. You should have explored that in the Magneto. That guy can act. Yeah, he can.
00:01:19
Speaker
So today's episode is not 12 years of slave or the prequel. It is, what is it Andrew? Today is film reel. And what that's going to consist of is us kind of going off the cuff. I prepared some provocative questions for Mr. Zachary and provocative film questions. He has no idea what they are. And I'm going to put them on the spot for your guys enjoyment.
00:01:47
Speaker
Yeah, on the spot, going in blind, no prep. Kind of just direct, honest. I mean, I guess I could lie my way through some of these, but I'll give it a straight shot, straight answers, because you're up next, so be nice.
Experimenting with Open Concept
00:02:04
Speaker
You're in a future episode. It'll be you in the hot seat. Ted does not be nice at all. This is going to be hell. And don't worry, guys. If he lies, I'll call him out.
00:02:14
Speaker
Yeah, because you probably know from the many years we've known each other. Yeah, for as much as we talk about film on the podcast, we talk about 10 times as much film off the podcast. That is true. That's very true. Okay, so how many questions do you have? I prepared 15 questions. I don't know if I'm going to ask them all, but I'm going to kind of ask them and get a series going and then pick and choose the one I want to ask you after.
00:02:44
Speaker
Cool. Okay. Yeah, this is more freeform open concept we're experimenting with, right? It is. It is. This is our first film reel episode. I really liked the name, right? That was the name that you chose.
00:02:59
Speaker
I don't know if, I mean, that was one of the options. I guess when this goes live and the title's up, that will be whatever it is. That might be our first line of the night, guys. Depends how I feel after the bottom of this pint.
Craft Beer Selections
00:03:19
Speaker
All right. I got my four pack of Kiltlifter from the local Four Peaks Brewery in Phoenix, Arizona.
00:03:26
Speaker
And I am rocking the eye of a sour run from 8-Bit Brewing Company in Temecula. There you go. It is a sour IPA. What's that? Did you say that was like 9.5%? Yeah, it's, let's see, 9.1%. Got two pints on deck. So we're in for a good time, I think. That's a proper fade right there.
00:03:53
Speaker
Yeah. That's what, five Dos Equis or something. Right. Or seven Heineken's. 15 questions on the spot. You have good beer. I have good beer. Let's see what happens. All right.
Do Streaming Platforms Diminish Cinema?
00:04:11
Speaker
I'm going to give you a softball question right off the bat. Is the rise of the streaming platform killing the magic of cinema? That's a good question. No, I don't think it is.
00:04:23
Speaker
I, that's hard. I mean, that's a nuanced, I think, answer. So I think the rise of streaming and streaming platforms make the big blockbuster spectacle movies that are shown, exhibited in cinema or in movie theaters more
00:04:47
Speaker
fantastical, more wonderful. I mean, look at Barbenheimer, for example. I don't know that either film is really a product of streaming, really. But I think when it counts, it really counts now because so much content is really tried out on streaming. It's kind of
00:05:12
Speaker
you can produce a lot of content, you can get it out there. You're not really worried about the box office. So the back of the napkin or really sophisticated financials that you're doing to support a film, you change the calculus of all that. I think right now you get films in theater that have to be big budget, a pill to wide audiences, but I don't necessarily think that takes away from the magic of cinema.
00:05:41
Speaker
Now, do I miss getting lost in kind of a lower budget, artsy, risky project in cinema, in a big movie theater? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I do miss that. I think you only get movies exhibited now in movie theaters that are superhero films, big blockbuster films. You know, they're the safe films. They're not the pushing the boundaries kind of films. And when they are,
00:06:12
Speaker
Like Bo is afraid they flop big time, you know, um, so no, it
Impact of Superhero Films on Diversity and Originality
00:06:20
Speaker
didn't. But, you know, as we said in the very first episode of this podcast, that was a movie that I think I, I mean, I am glad I saw it in a movie theater. I glad I did not see that for the first time on iTunes or Netflix or anything like that.
00:06:39
Speaker
You know, we should start like a podcast series, like a little playlist within this called Zach and Andrew Are Afraid and talk about all the things that make us all mad and afraid of the changes in film. Yeah, that'd be good. I mean, I think I'm pretty progressive in terms of what's happening with the industry. I mean, pop culture, I'm always attacking as a whole, you know this. I'm always saying pop culture is dying and whatnot.
00:07:09
Speaker
No, I think that the magic of cinema is still there. It's just there. It's like a theme park. The theme
TV vs. Cinema: Narrative Complexity
00:07:17
Speaker
park exists. But what they did is they got rid of all of the side, you know, small side rides that had the shorter lines. And they've invested all their money into the biggest roller coasters and the biggest rides at this theme park, thinking that's the only reason people come.
00:07:36
Speaker
And I think Barbie and Oppenheimer challenged that in a way. I mean, Barbie's doing buku books, you know, the highest grossing film from a woman director. It was a new...
00:07:49
Speaker
It's a film that shouldn't have worked with the current box office formula or what people think. Right now, it's superhero movies. It's a big budget superhero movie. You throw it in there and people are going to go see it. But what we're seeing recently is that's not the case. We like The Flash, but it bombed.
00:08:11
Speaker
at the box office. And I'm not really that surprised. I'm getting tired of superhero movies myself. So I think it's there. And I would hope that executives and the powers that be get some courage again, man. Start throwing some artsy shit up in there and start wowing people. Give people a reason. Like, hey, I can't watch this on Netflix. I can't watch this on Hulu. This is a weird, quirky, crazy movie.
00:08:41
Speaker
that I'm going to go see in the cinema and I can only see it there and it's going to be exciting. It's going to be a new, you know, like last month I saw talk to me, the horror movie. And, you know, we'll have to do an episode on that or speak about it at length. But that's a movie that, as with all horror, in my opinion, but that's a movie I loved seeing in the theater.
00:09:04
Speaker
freaked out the atmosphere it created and I think financially it's doing pretty well and you know that that captures the magic of cinema for me so I'll stop ranting and raving but I don't think streamers or streaming services are I think if anything they are filtering out the shit ideas on the stream platform so that the really good ones make up the box office but
00:09:31
Speaker
I think, you know, superhero flicks, big budget blockbusters are kind of holding down some, some of the films that could be in there with them running. Well, I guess, uh, it'll lead to that. I guess I would ask, uh, you know, with the rise of superhero films, especially in the last 15 years, do you think that, and let me specify, not, not where we are today where super health, pure films are kind of on a decline, but just going over the last 15 years, do you think that the, the rise of superhero film helped diversify the types of stories that were being told in cinema?
Do Superhero Films Restrict Storytelling?
00:10:01
Speaker
Or do you think that they had the opposite effect and have kind of stifled the originality in the variety of films that we've seen in theaters? I think that the Rise of Superhero films have stifled original films from long runs at the box office. I think that's why so many good stories are showing up in television series now.
00:10:26
Speaker
kind of in a good way because a story that is so tantalizing or interesting that would have only existed in a two and a half hour runtime at best if you really want that length and exploration now is being explored in 10 hours in a season.
00:10:46
Speaker
And it can benefit from a TV production schedule, which means you're usually getting content a lot faster than you would if you were waiting for entries in a film series. So I think it just shifted where, like what forms these stories are being told. Not that it's a bad thing or a good thing, but like I said in the previous question,
00:11:13
Speaker
Cinema and the magic of cinema being in a theater in the dark where you have to focus on the screen You can't whip your phone out get distracted With a huge, you know sound system big screen all that it it's a different experience by far, you know, it's like riding your bicycle is Watching stuff at home even if you have a good sound system and riding a motorcycle It's like, you know watching the movie in a cinema and in theaters so
00:11:42
Speaker
You know, that that to me is the defining factor or the distinguishing factor between the two. It's just that right now, I think what appears to thrive and be successful in theater has executives, you know, saying no, no, no to some of these other stories. So they go to the streamers that, you know, Amazon.
00:12:04
Speaker
Disney, Hulu, they're at war with each other, so they're willing to take a risk on some of these projects that are appearing in the box office, you know? Yeah, that's a good point. And I guess, I mean, it has been a huge rise of the Superhero film. You know, you got the Marvel Cinematic Universe, you have the DC Expanded Universe, and then
00:12:31
Speaker
And on the side, we have a lot of options of just superhero content in general, right? The stand-alone Batman movie. I guess more specifically, what do you think about the actual stories being told in superhero films? Do you think any of those have led to different types of movies outside of the superhero genre?
Superhero Film Fatigue and Alternative Storytelling
00:12:49
Speaker
Or do you think it's just like a small box of possible directions you can take a superhero and that has kind of
00:12:57
Speaker
warped the creativity as a culture, if that makes sense. Do you think the exposure to that many superhero stories has kind of boxed ourselves in as a society for what we expect a hero to be, superhero or not? Yeah, I mean, I think it has. I think when you are blasted in the face, eyes, ears,
00:13:22
Speaker
with 20, 30 films of MCU and 10 of DC and all this, it starts to define the narrative of a superhero film or what superhero stories should be. Not that
00:13:39
Speaker
superhero stories can't be other stories or follow a different template or formula. I think though that the average moviegoer or the studio execs, whatever, they've been conditioned over, you know, from when did Iron Man come out, 2008, 2007, whatever that was. It's almost 20 years of conditioning
00:14:01
Speaker
you know on what a superhero film is and I think you could tell some interesting stories in each of these superhero films but I think what's been happening lately is that it's the same kind of tired story over and over again and that's why the box office returns are starting to diminish you know these projects are starting to flop
00:14:24
Speaker
I think it's superior to someone who's powered beyond all belief. It opens up all kinds of moral dilemmas and interesting things.
00:14:38
Speaker
The stories we get is someone's called to a higher duty. They struggle personally on whether they can live up to some ideals of society. And then ultimately, maybe they're reluctant. They take up the mantle, fight a foe, and then each of these villains is dispensed or disposed of within a film.
00:15:02
Speaker
That, I think, is getting old. I think that's tired material, at least for me. I mean, obviously, it's just my opinion, and I may be out of touch. But I think that if you explored, I mean, all of us can sit here and ask ourselves, what would we do if we had Superman's power? I'm sure it wouldn't all be great things. I'm sure people
00:15:27
Speaker
would be challenged. And if you're poor, maybe you'd go and grab money and rob a bank or do things to set yourself up or impose your will. I mean, think about how many dictators have appeared. I mean, all of human history, nearly, monarchies, dictators. And none of these superhero films explore
00:15:51
Speaker
what happens when the wrong person gets it. And maybe they do, you know, to an extent, but not fully fleshed out, not in a way that I think really explores what it means to be tempted by power and things of that nature. So, I mean, I think there are stories like that that exist that are out there, or even stories where like, you know, the amazing Spider-Man, I think, too, he doesn't save, you know, Gwen, she dies. So things like that, where you're trying to do your best, but
00:16:20
Speaker
You're not a pro, especially if you got powers recently. Maybe there's collateral damage. You end up killing a lot of people you love or, you know, you mess up big time and you are kind of like Hancock or something. So I think there's a lot that could be explored, but it doesn't fit into the Disney manufactured, you know, machine or even what people think of as superhero films.
00:16:46
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's a good point. We've seen more of that in television, right? I guess the poise would be a great example of people that are undeserving your powers, getting powers. Yeah, and I think that's kind of exactly what I'm saying, whereas in the box office, Disney, Marvel is reigning supreme. So these stories that
00:17:08
Speaker
It's stifling the ability to tell these stories in that venue, but now they exist on Amazon. They exist on the streaming platform. So are the streamers impacting movies or is it the executives in the studios that believe in a formula so much that they've pushed all other stories out so naturally other forums and venues are taking them up?
00:17:33
Speaker
And I think it's more the executive kind of approach to movie making at the big studios. Because these stories want to be told. I mean, if I'm talking about it, I'm not a writer in Hollywood. I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, of writers are already exploring these things. So they just can't get that project greenlit for a theatrical run. They got to take it to a graphic novel or directly to a streamer, and then it gets adapted, whatever it may be.
00:18:01
Speaker
No, that's a really good point. It's a chicken and egg situation, right?
Expanded Cinematic Universes Beyond Marvel and DC
00:18:08
Speaker
Did the executives follow the money from the audience or did the audience follow where the money is pumped into for the film? There just happened to be a quality product and maybe there's some signals being sent or maybe this is something the audience has really wanted. I know there was a long time where the idea of a cinematic universe is really exciting to me. Now it's not so much.
00:18:30
Speaker
I mean, just a quick look at the cinematic universe history, right? Going back to the beginning of film, up until the Marvel expanding universe, there were 17 expanding universes ever made. Since 2007, there's been 17 by themselves. It's the last, you know, 16 years has matched entire film history before that. Yeah, I mean, I think that's it. You know, some formula that has worked for Marvel is now dominating
00:19:00
Speaker
how studios plan and prepare green light projects.
00:19:06
Speaker
And I agree. There was, I remember the idea of like, wait, what this movie about another character will tie into another movie and they're not direct sequels. Like, Oh my gosh, that's unheard of. Like, so excited. And then they, you know, universal announced their monster universe or whatever. And it was like, geez, save me. Tom Cruise bombed, you know, like, come on, you know, get, make it make sense. Make it.
00:19:36
Speaker
Don't go for the easy, low-hanging fruit. Hire people who care. It makes sense to tell these stories in a shared universe. There's some tapestry, fine-woven tapestry, bigger picture that this feeds into because if you don't, like the mummy,
00:19:55
Speaker
with Tom Cruise, audiences aren't going to show up and they're not going to support you. They're not going to do it. So I don't know, man. I think it's an industry that's risk averse. And I guess I understand if the average blockbuster is $200 million budget, you have to be.
00:20:14
Speaker
What about shared universes that are small scale, you know, like horror, like the Conjuring universe, you know, those are that's a cinematic universe. Yeah, exactly. And low budget, they make fat amounts of money. And it's great. It's a great time to go sit in the theater and watch those movies.
00:20:33
Speaker
Why can't you do that with like some gritty true crime cop films or something where, you know, you have almost like true detective, but film style, you know, actual installments and they're tied together in some really cool and interesting way. That's a good point. Or high smoothies, man. Maybe you got a bunch of like high smoothies that tie together or something like there's,
00:20:59
Speaker
So many opportunities to do a cinematic universe, not on the scale of Marvel. That's a good point. So I know in India, they've been doing a lot of their own expanded universes, right? So they have one universe called, I think it's called the hit universe.
00:21:17
Speaker
And that is a series of heist films. Is it really? Yeah. My India film knowledge is slack and big time. Shout out to India and Bollywood and all that, but I need to step up my game for sure. Yeah. I mean, I would say about 25% of these expanding universes that I've been reading about have come out of India and
00:21:43
Speaker
A lot of them are cop universes, spy universes, heist-moving universes, so they're not superhero. See, this is what I'm saying, man. Exactly. See, I'm not in the industry, and if I'm thinking of other people's head, other people have for sure. So that right there is reassuring. I didn't know that that is awesome. We should be doing that here in the States, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you had a perfect jumping off opportunity with like the ocean series, you know, instead of just making oceans 12 or 13.
00:22:14
Speaker
Yep. You know, there's so many great characters of that that could have followed those people for their standalone films. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, tying some like common thread of, you know, how some old crew lead is like behind the scenes on some big job. I mean, kind of like, you know, M. Night Shyamalan did with, um, oh gosh, uh, Split.
00:22:42
Speaker
The beauty of that movie is you don't know it's connected to any other bigger universe until the very end. And that's why it was so impactful when you realized. If you knew from the start, it would have changed your whole viewing experience. I think that Expanded Universe has the best name for Expanded Universe yet. That's the East Rail 177 trilogy. Is it really? Yeah.
00:23:13
Speaker
It's pretty cool, isn't it? Yeah, that's legit. You know, it's a, I think, you know, before we go on to the next question, I just think the funniest.
Actors and CGI: Who Owns the Role?
00:23:21
Speaker
Expanded universe or cinematic universe is Sony Spider-Man universe.
00:23:25
Speaker
which started in 2018 with Venom and they have a full film slate going through 2024 and not one of those films is Spider-Man. So, he has yet to appear in his own cinematic universe. That is interesting. I mean, do they technically count
00:23:44
Speaker
his entries in the Marvel, the MCU. Nope. At least not on the Wikipedia page, at least that I'm reading. I could be wrong. Because I know there was that nod at the end of, oh gosh, which one was it, Venom 2, right? To MCU's homecoming. Yeah, that Venom crossed over to the MCU at the end of No Way Home.
00:24:11
Speaker
But then got kicked back and nothing really came of it, right? Yeah. So they aren't actually in the same universe. It was like a parallel. Yeah. Or the multiverse. So I guess, yeah, that Spider-Man technically isn't there. Spider-Man, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because he's in the wrong universe. So what's the next question? What do you got? Well, I want to move away from the superhero stuff a little bit.
00:24:37
Speaker
Let's move to something that's a little bit more relevant with the Actor Strike, the Screen Actor Skills Strike. So with advancements in technology like deepfakes and CGI, at what point does an actor's performance stop being theirs?
00:24:51
Speaker
That's a good one. I don't know. I don't know that I have a firm answer on this because I think I'm uneducated in a lot of respects. I mean, I can see an argument being made of like, at what point, like, you know, an actor who's in a film, if there's a heavily CGI'd shot of them doing something, is that really their performance? I'd argue no.
00:25:16
Speaker
You know, like when Tom Holland is in the Spider-Man suit and it's a full CGI sequence of Spider-Man swinging through the city, is that really his performance? No, I don't think so. I think his performance is when he is directly bringing emotion to the role, you know, in a scene. I mean, he doesn't have to have his mask off, but, you know, his
00:25:45
Speaker
dialogue is, he's actually doing the work. He could take ownership of that performance. I think when you are no longer doing the work and someone is emulating your voice or restructuring, deepfaking your face, you don't have ownership over that anymore. And if you don't, then I think you have problems there. Yeah.
Should Motion Capture Performances Get Awards?
00:26:11
Speaker
I think he exists currently, but with this technology, it will further diminish the role of an actor. I agree. Let me give you a thought experiment. Let's take Tom Holland. Let's say that Tom Holland
00:26:28
Speaker
acts out his role as Peter Parker, right? No CGI. But at the end of the filming, the producers decided that they really wanted Nicholas Cage in there. And the deep fake Nicholas Cage's face and his voice on the Tom Holland's performance. How responsible is Tom Holland for that role at that point? I don't think, I mean, I think he's responsible, obviously, for the physical
00:26:54
Speaker
work he put in that film. So you're not seeing Nicolas Cage move his body or his face for that matter. That is work that was being done by Tom Holland. But what's coming across the audience is not Tom Holland and his work. It's the distraction of Nicolas Cage as Spider-Man or whoever. He replaced Nicolas Cage with some young up-and-coming actor
00:27:20
Speaker
People will attribute the performance to that person, but they did no work at all. So technically, I think it's still Tom Holland's responsibility, but his association with that obviously is greatly diminished. This is kind of like David Prowse and Darth Vader. He was very upset about being dubbed over by James Earl Jones in the suit.
00:27:47
Speaker
But James Earl Jones is not Darth Vader. His voice is. I mean, the voice and the delivery of these lines is, you know, from him. And you associate him with Darth Vader. But the embodiment, the movements, everything is David.
00:28:04
Speaker
And most people don't give him any credit. They say, James Earl Jones, you know, that's Darth Vader. So I think that's the same thing. People would say, oh, Nicholas Cage, he signed off. He allowed them to do whatever. But it's a performance by Nicholas Cage. Although the body double, the person who's in the suit who is doing the hard work, most of the work in terms of the physical presence on screen is Tom Holland.
00:28:29
Speaker
So it's shared, you know, it's shared at that point. So I guess how would we rate Andy Serkis as Caesar? Excellent. Mastercraft performance. Do you think that any of his performance is diminished by being CGI and the work of the, you know, of the artists that are illustrating him as a, you know, as an ape diminishes his role? No, I don't because I think the audience knows whether they know it or not, or they come to learn about it after the fact.
00:29:00
Speaker
The whole performance is attributed to Andy Serkis. No one's confusing, you know, Gollum for a real actor or Caesar in Ape as being hired, you know, to do the work. Yeah, you know, so I think.
00:29:17
Speaker
You can still say, damn, yeah, Andy Serkis, he killed that. He's there. He's the man in the mocap. He's the man behind the mask. And he is doing everything to sell this role. And I'd say the same thing about Tom Holland as Spider-Man. But when you throw another actor that people know, or even another person, human face, whatever, it makes it much easier to take away from that person's performance and attribute it to that other person.
00:29:46
Speaker
Okay. So I guess a little side shoot from there. Do you think Andy Serkis should have been nominated for an Oscar? Absolutely. Which role specifically? Do you think should be Gollum, or do you think that was too soon, or do you think definitely one of the planet of the apes? Well, Gollum, I don't think... I mean, Gollum's a very important character. You know me. I'm drinking the eye of Sauron right now. So I love Lord of the Rings.
00:30:14
Speaker
I mean, maybe it's too soon. He wasn't really a made man at that point. But I mean, there's some goddamn fellowship. You got nine people right there. So Gollum, it's hard for me to sit there and go, yeah, he should have been nominated for that role and there's so many other performances.
00:30:34
Speaker
I think, you know, everyone in the category is from Lord of the Rings that year, if that was the case, at the Academy. But no, I think for Planet of the Apes, he should have for sure.
00:30:49
Speaker
100%. Well, just because you don't see an actor's face, you know, and on screen doesn't mean they're not worthy of the Oscar. He should have been nominated for lead and lead actor, and he should have got it, you know, if we're war or dawn. I mean, I can't remember what movies were
00:31:09
Speaker
Uh, or what actors were nominated those years. If you can pull that up quick here, have it handy. Sure. But yeah, man, he, that, that those movies, the planet of the apes, the new ones rise, dawn war. Those movies are, they make up one of my favorite trilogies of all time. I'd put that in top three trilogies all time. I put Lord of the rings. Number one, Star Wars. Number two, apes. Number three. And anyone who disagrees, I'll argue with you every day of the week.
00:31:45
Speaker
I don't want to interrupt your rant. I was just going to say, those apes were more human than the humans in those films. And in order to sell that to me,
00:31:59
Speaker
Those mocap performances had to be top two. They had to be better than human performances in order to make me empathize with a non-human in the story more than humans. And for that, in that reason alone, you should have been nominated. Yeah, you're going to be very disappointed when you realize who was nominated for Best Actor that year. Jeez. So let me lead off the finalists.
00:32:23
Speaker
You have, uh, Eddie Romain for the theory of everything. Bradley Cooper for America's sniper. Week performance. Steve Carell for Foxcatcher. Benedict Cumberbatch for the imitation game. And Michael Keaton for Birdman. Okay. Keaton was great. Um, Benedict was, he was good. Uh, but circus was better than all of them. Come on. You tell me that. So what year was that, Don? Uh, uh, this would be 2015 Oscars.
00:32:52
Speaker
So what when did Don come out and war? So I think they came out 2014, right? Don on the planet apes. Yeah, OK. Don, I mean, he killed it and Don for sure. But I would more or more so argue that war was a stronger performance, even though the story overall, I didn't enjoy as much as Don. The story was still good. I mean, it's a redemption story. It's a man ape who loses everything and goes on the vengeance, the war path.
00:33:22
Speaker
loses his soul by doing it and then is redeemed by the end. He goes from the best, perfect leader he can be to being sloppy and making silly mistakes on the pursuit of vengeance. This is a story that's been told many, many times before, but it's an excellent story. So to me, I think as a character story, it serves better for Caesar in war than done.
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah. And, uh, so I mean, in 2018, that's a for war. His competition was Gary Oldman for darkest hour. Oh man. I'm always going to mess up names on this podcast. This is Dingle. Yeah. I don't, I don't know. Forget it out. Uh, Timothy Chevalier, for calling by your name, Daniel de Lewis for Phantom thread and Denzel Washington for Roman J. Israel. Yeah. I mean,
00:34:18
Speaker
Gary Oldman won, right? Yeah. It's hard to say that Andy Serkis did better than Gary Oldman, maybe, but the whole point is Andy Serkis should have been nominated. You know, what's interesting about that is, and I really feel like the 2018 highlights a better disparity between motion capture and acting because Gary Oldman winning for the Darkest Hour, in my opinion, was largely attributed to the prosthetics that he wore in that film.
00:34:47
Speaker
Yeah, I was just about to say that's live-action mocap, if you will. He's putting on a fat suit. He's going to work doing the same performance. Andy Serkis just has a mocap suit on. Gary Oldman has the fat suit. Andy Serkis has the mocap. They're both doing the same thing. Yeah. I think you could have replaced Chalamet with
00:35:13
Speaker
1000% with Andy Serkis, 1000%. I had to say, I'm never impressed with his performances. No, I mean, Dune's all right. He did all right in Dune. Willy Wonka. Oh, man. He's present. I'm not impressed with his performance in Dune. He doesn't hold Dune together. And I think that's the thing, right? It's that that movie is held together by Denis, not Chalamet.
00:35:41
Speaker
So I guess before we get too deep into the Oscars questions, I have a question about the Oscars. That's the perfect opportunity to lead into it.
00:35:50
Speaker
So, do award ceremonies like the Oscars truly honor the best of the film or have they become more about politics and popularity?
Oscars: Politics vs. Quality
00:35:58
Speaker
I mean, as with anything, it's all politics. You never remove anything. I mean, unless you get a bunch of engineers and actuaries and accountants together in a room and they crunch out formulas to award based on
00:36:12
Speaker
budget, box office revenue, average salary, all that for best film. Best film is subjective. And because it's subjective, it's open to all the political theater that comes with it. It's like running from your office. The best person doesn't win. It's the most charismatic or the most whatever at that time in history.
00:36:38
Speaker
It's not an objective best. It's a subjective based on the pulse of pop culture or the media or society. And remember, I mean, these people or these war shows are voted on by the members of the Academy. And these are human beings who are subject to influences of the moment, you know,
00:37:04
Speaker
Whatever narratives are coming out of the campaigns of the awards season, what about a damn good movie that has no budget or no resources to go on the campaign trail? The fact that they even call it an Oscars campaign, I think is telling enough that this is all, it's all politics. You're campaigning, you're trying to win over the masses who are voting.
00:37:27
Speaker
for your movie or your actress or whatever. And then those people are in the industry you work in. So, you know, they may, 30% of them be connected to the person who's being nominated and, you know, Oh yeah, I voted for you. I'm glad you got it. Oh, you put me in a role or, Oh, we're working together on this project. It's all, it's a circle jerk. You know, what's interesting is that if you look at the last four best picture winners, not one film has had a budget over 25 million. What are the last four?
00:37:58
Speaker
So last year was everything, everywhere, all at once. Nice. Then 2021 was CODA, 2020 was Nomadland, or Nomadland. And then 2019 was Parasite. Nice. Nomadland's the only one I think.
00:38:13
Speaker
I didn't really connect with that of those four. Actually, if you go back, I'm going back even further, I stopped too soon. There hasn't been a film with a budget over 25 million since what year? Give me a second. Hargo in 2012. I'd make this argument. This is a very good question. I mean, you've ranted and raved about this in so many different forms, but not so directly. Not like this, I don't think.
00:38:43
Speaker
But I'd argue this, and maybe this is, I'm an optimist. I consider myself an optimist, but I'm, I think, very cynical with pop culture lately. I think I'm, you know, the death of pop culture. I'm always screaming and, you know, bitching and moaning.
00:38:59
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I think that the best picture is a reflection of what the industry wishes it was and what the industry... Think about it like this. If you have 1400... How many people are in the voting body of the academy? 1400 or something? Yeah.
00:39:20
Speaker
I know, you have a mass of people, right? And they're all, what's that? 10,000. 10,000, so even more. You have this group of people who are voting on something that is basically, best picture is a reflection of Hollywood in that year, you know, current Hollywood.
00:39:44
Speaker
I would argue that the best picture is projection of what Hollywood stands for. What movies are being made? What is the best picture? How have we won the hearts and minds of the people? Oh, it's, you know, Koda. Oh, it's everything, everywhere, all at once. You know, predominantly Asian film, you know, lead, you know, deaf, lead actor. You know, not that those are bad things, but I think
00:40:09
Speaker
the Academy tries to aspire or like choose the best picture that people vote because that's their moral high horse. That's their I want to vote for something that's a reflection of what we want the world to think we do here. And then all of the other awards, lead actor and actress and shit. I mean, you still got some of that in there, the politics and the representation kind of things.
00:40:37
Speaker
you know, Oscar's so white a couple of years ago. Now the voting members, I think, are pressured to try to include, you know, more people in the nominations and, you know, as they should be. But I don't, we're getting to the politics now, right? All these politics, I think, bleed into it. And they aren't picking
00:40:59
Speaker
films for Best Picture that are $100 million or $150 million. Everyone complains. When I talk to younger people, I'm like, hey, this one Best Picture, they're like, I didn't see that goddamn movie. I don't care. The Best Pictures aren't representative of the average moviegoer and what they like. I think they represent what Hollywood wishes they were like.
00:41:22
Speaker
Hollywood puts forward a best picture that they they wish they were making movies like that. Like that was the normal movie they made. But they're not. They're making movies that are, you know, 15 white superheroes for every one woman or, you know, whatever the hell it may be, whatever issue that has led to all of these. They've got in heat. The Academy's got in heat for the past five to ten years for being
00:41:51
Speaker
blinded, you know, or blind to like other performances, really good movies, really good roles. And I think now the voting members are starting to say, Oh, we want to start focusing on those films. And rightly so do parasite amazing film. Dakota was great. Everything everywhere all at once was awesome. Nomadland was dogshit. I don't know if you liked it and you're listening. I'm sorry. I didn't have my parents like that one.
00:42:18
Speaker
Francis is great too. But I was like, what the hell? What's the point of this film? It's a big waste of time. That's the best picture of the year. So politics, it's all politics. And you have actors or actresses that win in a given year. And you're like, dude, what the hell? You're only winning because, quote unquote, it's your time, not because your performance was the best.
00:42:41
Speaker
It's just five years ago, they snubbed you. So they gave it to some other person because it was their time. And now they're trying to make amends by you. And that's what these people are thinking when they're voting. They're not voting on some strict criteria of objective criteria. They're saying, damn, Leo, this is the sixth time he's been up. Fuck. All right. Revenant.
00:43:02
Speaker
It's about time I got a majority of these 10,000 and he got it. The Revenant was not his role and the Revenant was not his best role and it wasn't the best role that year. No, no. And I agree. I guess it's an interesting question when you look at what the Academy actually starts to represent and what they award. It does seem to be very much
00:43:31
Speaker
It's either a political message, whether you agree with it or not. And it's a turn-based system, right? Yeah, turn-based and political. And it's a lot of patting yourself on your back, the academy. It's a circle jerk, man. They pat themselves on the back. That was Brendan Fraser, right, for his role in whale. Seemed very much like, hey, we fucked up by not believing your story earlier.
00:43:58
Speaker
Yeah, pretty much. And here's an Oscar. We're sorry. Boom, you're back. Well, it was good. He was the best actor that year. Get real.
00:44:09
Speaker
No, it's another situation where he had a live action. I wanted him to win because I believed in, you know, it was an emotional story that appealed to me. And I was able to discard the objective reasoning that I had seen better performances that year because it was a feel-good story. But at the end of the day, it was bullshit. It was a bullshit win. I love him, I'm glad he has an Oscar, but it's a bullshit win.
00:44:35
Speaker
All right, so let's stay on the same tune on the social messaging of films, because I think we both agree that a great film usually does have something to say about society, right?
Does a Great Film Need a Moral Message?
00:44:47
Speaker
Absolutely, 1,000%. So when considering a film, a subjective message question may be to be one of the greatest of all time. Is it necessary to have a moral or social message, or can a film be one of the greatest of all time when it's made for just pure entertainment?
00:45:04
Speaker
No, you don't need a social or moral message to have a film that's the greatest of all time. I think you need to have a story that moves people and moves them so profoundly that they look inward and change something about their day to day life. That is a movie that I think is the greatest of all time. That's something that
00:45:27
Speaker
sits there, you connect with it so deeply that now you're going home and it's sitting with you. It's informing your decision-making or what you choose to study or learn about or focus your time on. Pure entertainment, I mean, and you can have a movie that purely entertains you and maybe it entertains you so much that you're motivated in that way
00:45:49
Speaker
afterwards but I don't think you need to have some story about you know racism is bad or like everyone should have a voice for that to be the greatest film of all time those are important stories because at the end of the day the reason we tell stories is to pass on critical information about society that is useful for all of us that's why we connect with it because we see these stories in our everyday lives they help shape
00:46:16
Speaker
how we interact with people, who we are, and all that. But I don't think it's a requirement. All right. And I guess let's get to a little bit more of a provocative question, which is, so society is continuously evolving, and older films often get viewed through a different lens, a lens of today's time.
Handling Problematic Content in Older Films
00:46:39
Speaker
And as that happens, should
00:46:41
Speaker
Older films with problematic elements be edited or given context, or should they be left untouched as products of their time? Al, no, they should not be edited or censored. They should be left. They're products of their time.
00:46:54
Speaker
How are you supposed to sit here? Old films should be a cautionary tale for you or the viewer, if you're offended, to remember how quickly things can go back to that. How quickly things were packaged, manufactured into entertainment for you to buy and accept at face value. If you don't understand that that happened before, it's like banning, you know,
00:47:20
Speaker
information about the Nazis because you're afraid of it happening again. I mean, I get it, Germany has their laws, but that should be taught, it should be shown, because if you become unfamiliar with how quickly very shitty ideas propagate and spread through society and are accepted, it's bound to happen again. I think you should be able to watch an old film and be like, holy shit, you know, that main actor was a womanizer, like,
00:47:48
Speaker
glad we don't live in that time. Maybe it gives you appreciation for where you're at now. You're married, you are a woman or whatever, and you're glad that you have a much bigger role in society. You're able to speak your mind. You see some of these old classic films, and the women are relegated to just their appearance. They have no voice in the film.
00:48:12
Speaker
Should that be banned because that's not right? No, that should be shown and people should have to sit there and reflect on what that means. Why did that exist in the past? Well, it existed because of so many different reasons, right? And what are those reasons? Well, now you're thinking about it. It prompts that discussion. If you think about it and you digest it, you can prevent it from happening again.
00:48:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's such an important historical document to see where we were and what we didn't like or even possibly to see what we did like. Well, the thing is like, should you tear up the Constitution or the Declaration because it mentions men and not women? No, you should sit there and go,
00:48:55
Speaker
Damn, that was a time when white men with land owned property. And let's not go back to that. Why was that wrong? It gets you to sit there and think about that. That's how it started. And you had to start somewhere, of course. But if you are blind to that or you don't preserve those things through movies or whatever,
00:49:17
Speaker
I think you're doomed to repeat your mistakes. That's one thing to sit down and watch a movie and say, I enjoy it because the main character's a womanizer. It's another to sit there and go, Dan, this is a reflection of society at that time. It's still interesting and good story, but there are a lot of social issues that are present in this film, and it's a good reminder of how far we've come.
00:49:40
Speaker
It is nice to see how far we've come, isn't it? You look back at the 1960s films, you don't have to go any further than look at the way James Bond has evolved. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good one, James Bond, yeah. I mean, just now James Bond has female characters that actually move the plot along instead of just being eye candy. Yeah, look at Ana de Armas and No Time to Die.
00:50:05
Speaker
She wasn't there to sleep with him. She was there as another agent to help him get out of a bind. Strong woman character, good looking like James Bond's good looking.
00:50:16
Speaker
James Bond isn't there just to sleep with a bunch of women and be used by women. He's the main character. He's doing something. But I think that's what you mean is you're introducing women who can be good looking like him and be their own powerful, capable, smart, beautiful, whoever person. And they don't have to just be there as arm candy or some romantic interest to the main lead.
00:50:43
Speaker
Yeah. So this is really well said. And so I asked that question as kind of a primer for the second question, which is, I think we can all agree that there's a lot of films in the past that have problems.
Can Art Be Separated from the Artist?
00:50:57
Speaker
But this question more has to do with
00:51:00
Speaker
Filmmakers of today who've had problems in their personal life, maybe recent or in the far past, some very significant and horrific problems that you look no further than Roman Klasky and some of the evil things he's been attached to. Should a filmmaker's personal controversies and misdeeds affect how we perceive and support their work? No, unless the personal controversies are tied to the messaging of the film because then you know the artist
00:51:27
Speaker
you know, is imparting their own personal preferences or issues into the artwork itself, right? I mean, I think if you're a cannibal and you've been tried and you're in prison for being a cannibal, murderer, serial, whatever,
00:51:44
Speaker
But you're a fabulous artist, but the work that people appreciated was about some grotesque, horrible pieces of cannibalism or whatever. Say the Van Gogh of cannibalism in art form. I think that...
00:52:00
Speaker
You know, this is a crazy example, but I think it's a good one because now you're saying, well, shit, he's not drawing from a place of like, I don't know, wild inspiration. He's drawing from like what he knows. And we all agree that that's terrible. Cannibalism is a terrible thing.
00:52:16
Speaker
That impacts the finished art that you're now looking at. I think if you are someone who's, you know, you got a DUI, you killed a whole family driving drunk, that's terrible. But if you made a movie about why it matters to be a good person and it connects with audiences and it makes people sit there and try to be a better person, why should that message be diluted or destroyed because the actual person, the artist is an asshole?
00:52:44
Speaker
I don't think it should. Now, if the artist made a movie about drunk drivers killing a bunch of people, then it's kind of like, this is in poor taste. It's easier to divorce yourself from that. So the answer I'd give is it depends.
00:53:03
Speaker
And then there's the other thing too, is that if that person is doing some terrible things, but they've made a really good piece of art, you going there, some people would argue, you know, going to support their art is supporting them financially. And you're enabling them to do whatever the hell it is that they're doing, you know, that's wrong or that people don't like. And I see that argument. I understand that argument, but I don't think as an audience member,
00:53:30
Speaker
The burden lies on you. I think that lies on the people who helped finance and create the project. It's their responsibility to pull it or take a stand or do whatever. That's a good point. I'm not sure how you feel familiar. Because I have an iPhone. Do I support slave labor, child labor in China or anything like that? No, I don't. But if I had to vote by principles, I wouldn't be able to live in modern society at all. That's true.
00:53:57
Speaker
So mining that strip mining required to build electric vehicles to put together all of modern electronics that we use for day to day work in an office environment. How many people die from strip mining and have to suffer through pork? Yes, that's a good point. All society would grind to a halt if we all behaved in that way. So it's nuanced. It's
00:54:22
Speaker
I think it's easy for people who aren't personally impacted or don't give a shit either way to easily remove themselves and say, hey, I changed my profile picture on social media, or I'm not going to buy a Tesla or whatever it may be. But they're not personally invested in the product or whatever the issue may be. So I don't know. I mean, if it was some artist who did something very terrible, I probably wouldn't want to support their work.
00:54:51
Speaker
But if their work transcended them and was important for social commentary purposes or even, you know, moving the needle conversation wise on an important issue, you know, I could kind of move forward and be okay with that. I can make peace with that. Yeah, that's a really good point. And I'm kind of going back to your point about the making the film about the subject of like cannibalism if you're cannibal.
00:55:19
Speaker
And it kind of brings me to Woody Allen and all of what we heard about him and his adopted child and his stepdaughter, right? Those stories. Yeah. Woody Allen's a creep. Yeah. And it just reminds me of a film I first saw that actually a college film class in Manhattan. I don't know if you've seen that one.
00:55:43
Speaker
Yeah, same class. I mean, I took it a year after you, but yeah. Yeah, you remember, you were watching Manhattan there and where... Yeah, shout out Juchel Kim. Yeah, one of my favorite professors ever. Yeah, so remember the content of that film, that's about a guy who
00:56:01
Speaker
is fighting his demons about being in a relationship with an underage woman. And that looks horrible in the context of what we know or have heard about him in recent times. But it makes it hard to... It's hard for me to really put in the words how I feel about the whole situation because everything I read was so horrible, because everything I saw in the documentary was so horrible. But Midnight in Paris is still one of my favorite movies. It's hard for me to
00:56:29
Speaker
kind of come to terms with liking that movie and then also being grossed out by the person that Woody Allen is. Yeah, exactly. I think it's very tough and I don't know what the right answer is because I don't go back and watch Manhattan anymore. I don't know. Yeah, that would be like the cannibal making the painting. I don't watch that and I don't watch a lot of Woody Allen's work anymore because I think he's
00:56:54
Speaker
a fool, you know, I don't agree with him. But, you know, I did watch Midnight in Paris and I do, I do like Midnight in Paris. I like Vicki Christina Barcelona a lot. You know, Scarlett Johansson, what's her name? Rebecca Black, is it? Great movie, you know, and it's these movies are so good that I'm not even thinking about Woody Allen's ass, you know, when I'm watching them.
00:57:23
Speaker
It is hard. It's hard to sit here and be like, damn, when I watch it, is he getting, you know, some cut of the streaming profit or whatever? Because if he is, that's a bummer. And that's kind of what I was saying about the studios, like, you know, or the people who own the rights to allow these pieces of art to be exhibited.
00:57:41
Speaker
I don't know. They're still allowing him to make movies. They're still doing it. Owen Wilson, is he a piece of shit because he was in the film? Is Scarlett Johansson and Javier Bardem because they did a movie with him? Should I never watch any of their films again? I don't know. I haven't stopped watching their movies. I'll continue. I love Javier Bardem, Scarlett Johansson, Owen Wilson. I'll watch all their movies.
00:58:10
Speaker
I don't like Woody Allen, so it's tough. I know exactly what you mean. It's tough. Fuck Woody Allen though. That's what I got to say. I don't want anyone thinking of supporting anything you had to do there. No, you cannot condone any of that behavior. So I wanted to kind of shift far away from this topic and burn it with gasoline.
00:58:35
Speaker
I mean, it's an interesting topic before you shift, because there is, you know, the whole free speech kind of argument to that, you know, you people have they have their free speech, they have their ability to go and make their art and put it out there. It's hard as with any policy issue or any public social commentary issue. It's not black and white. It's nuanced. It's very gray. And sometimes people have an easier, I think, easier
00:59:05
Speaker
go at it than I do. And even you, I mean, based on our discussion, some people can just draw the line in the sand and say, you know, forget them. I'm not supporting whoever that may be, but I don't know. I think you and I, I think you and I suffer from seeing the gray line pretty heavily where it's hard to draw lines. It's hard to find lines often in life. Very hard. That should be a quote you put on a shirt for the study pipe and start selling it.
00:59:36
Speaker
It's study pipe merch. It's hard to draw lines in life. It is. It is hard. It's like the more you learn about something, the deeper the weeds and it's like what's right and wrong really, the more you think about it. These concepts just seem to be like sand. They kind of slip through the fingers.
01:00:03
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, if people really want to bake their noodle, they could go read Nietzsche beyond good and evil, and you can really know where you draw lines. Yeah. That should be a future episode. Yeah, I mean, 100%. I'd be very interested.
01:00:22
Speaker
So the next question gasoline we're burning it we're dousing it everybody Allen and all this Interesting and you know, I think even all these questions we've I've been answering we've been talking about My answer is subject to change. I think though, you know, I I'd like to think I'm an open-minded person and you know, my view on superhero movies or streaming and you know the role of all these things Change over time. I mean
01:00:51
Speaker
I, you know me, I've had directors I really like. And now lately, all I do is bitch them on about them. And I think, you know, maybe I'll go back the other way in a couple years and be like, I really like him again. And I think that's what makes life interesting. You know, is how you, at least for me, change your opinions and views on things. So the ebbs and flows of opinions. Yeah.
01:01:16
Speaker
And so with that, I'm going to bring up a question.
Do Film Critics Need Formal Qualifications?
01:01:20
Speaker
So you've known for a long time that I've been very dissatisfied with the modern film critic world. And I know you have been too. And you and I bit your moan about Rotten Tomatoes scores and just overall how critics approach films in general. So with that being said, should film critics have formal training in film studies or a background in film production?
01:01:43
Speaker
Or is there a role simply to reflect the tastes of the opinions of the general public? No, man. I don't think you should have any formal training at all. I think anyone can be a critic. My mother's a critic of me. What form of training does she have in child care or raising a person? Anyone can be a critic. I think when I go to McDonald's and they mess up the presentation of my burger,
01:02:10
Speaker
I'm one of the best burger critics you can talk to. You have actors who have no formal training at all. We've got Johnny Depp. He wanted to be a musician. He became an actor. I don't think you need formal training to be a critic.
01:02:37
Speaker
I think if you have formal training, if you're doing a lot of additional work to learn and take in new information, it allows your criticism to be more valuable, effective.
01:02:54
Speaker
You know, like I said, my mom could critique how I do X, Y, and Z. If she was taking in more information, she had more training on whatever topic it may be. Her criticism may be more useful for me to change my behavior or do something differently.
01:03:12
Speaker
So I think if you're a film critic, I don't necessarily think you need to go to film school and have those trainings, but you should watch a lot of film probably. You should be aware of how many different ways you can tell a story, an archetype.
01:03:28
Speaker
in these things, because it'll allow you to draw on a lot, you know, a big well, you're drawing from a big well of knowledge and experience to sit here and offer feedback and criticism. It's like, why you should respect your elders, because they have a lot of information to draw upon to help you. And that's what criticism is. I mean, sure, it's whether you like it or not, or you think other people's will, you know, will like it or not. But if you're informed, or you have information, draw upon
01:03:58
Speaker
It could be more targeted feedback. It could be more useful or relevant information. So no, I don't think so. All right. You make a great point because for what we've talked about, just going back to conversations we found in the past, a film critic should just at least be an independent voice and have an opinion that isn't so much swayed by the current culture, I guess, but more of just have
01:04:27
Speaker
like have their own developed taste that an audience can draw on. But beyond that, like when you start putting in requirements, it almost allows for being elitist, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. You gate keep your profession and you know, you gate keep it. You make it. Yeah. I don't think so. I think to be a critic is to have an opinion and you don't need any training at all to have an opinion. You just may have a shitty opinion.
01:04:54
Speaker
or one that's widely appreciated. I do think that we see a lot of shitty opinions. And I think you and I will talk about film criticism more in the future.
01:05:09
Speaker
just the current state of it. We talked about different ideas for episodes. I don't want to get too much on that. I want to save that for a future time. Really, I guess I only have one question left. Everything else we hit on where you already answered. I put that question off to the side. This last question is, what you already hit on earlier, but I really want to hit it again and just use this as a wrap-up point for the questions.
01:05:38
Speaker
Do you think it's possible if time and money and resources were not an object to have an objective best film?
Is There an Objective Best Film?
01:05:45
Speaker
This could be, like you said, gathering all the engineers and film people and everything to create some kind of criteria to make a best film or will always just be subjective or personal preference. I'm having extreme internal conflict right now.
01:06:03
Speaker
Because I'm convincing myself of one answer, then I'm convincing myself of another answer. That's the way to go. Let me walk you through my thought process here. The logical side of me is telling me it will always be subjective and you can't manufacture a best film
01:06:26
Speaker
quote unquote, because with time, you know, society changing, opinions changing, all these things, you know, like Gone with the Wind. Oh, I'm bad. Greatest movie of all time. Yes, people now, you know, a lot of them don't give a shit about Gone with the Wind. And they'd say Titanic or whatever, you know, some other recent film that's more plugged into where they're at.
01:06:53
Speaker
in society and in time and in history. So, no, but I don't think you can. What I think you could do, though, is you could, with infinite money, whatever, you could manufacture something.
01:07:13
Speaker
that appeals to the widest amount of people as possible, that highlights fundamental truths of being human, that people can connect with deeply, that would stand the test of time, but would never retain its status as the greatest film of all time. Because I think what people pick is their best film or their artwork or whatever is really a reflection of where they are in life and what they hold to be near and dear to them.
01:07:43
Speaker
at that moment in their life. Like when I think about pieces of art or music or movies or games that I think are the greatest of all time, they've changed as I've grown and developed into a different person. Now, there are things that are universally loved, acclaimed and stuff like that. And everyone go, oh, Forrest Gump, you know, whatever movie, just fill in the blank. Oh, we all get around. Yeah, have you seen? Oh, that's great. I really like that.
01:08:12
Speaker
But I think the greatest film of all time differs person to person and is really a reflection of their own values and where they are in their life. There was a time when Goodfellas was my favorite movie of all time, and it's still up there. I love Goodfellas. But that's not my favorite movie of all time anymore. I would say There Will Be Blood, but even then,
01:08:41
Speaker
You know, there will be blood as a reflection of like ambition, in my opinion, and I'm an ambitious person. So it reflects a value that I have in my current life.
01:08:51
Speaker
As I've started to find more balance in my life and learn and sit here and reflect on kind of where I'm at and what I'm doing, I fall back to the curious case of Benjamin Button. You know, David Fincher is one of my favorites, but that story is, you know, fundamentally, I think it's a story about a man who's okay being alone and has to be alone in the world.
01:09:13
Speaker
And to me, that's a reflection of where I'm at in my life is, you know, there are times, a lot of time in my life right now where I experienced new things alone. And that is a piece of art that
01:09:28
Speaker
I can connect with and I can sit there and I can champion, I can find comfort in. So this is my long roundabout way of saying, no, I don't think there's an objective best film. I think the things that people connect with, with art, music, movies, whatever,
01:09:47
Speaker
really is tied to where they're at in their journey in life. And I think that's a beautiful thing. I think that's why art is so diverse and far-reaching and expansive, because art is there to comfort the soul in the way that building bridges and all that allows us to live, but to really live is to enjoy art. It's really well said. I think that's a perfect way to wrap up my
01:10:16
Speaker
15 provocative questions. Those were good questions, man. I really liked those. I wonder if we should run it back and just flip it where you have to go through them, or if I should springboard off those and iterate and try and put something forward that is equally provocative or at least interesting, intriguing.
01:10:44
Speaker
enough to get the conversation going. This was an interesting episode concept. Yeah, I really liked it. I think we should definitely do this again. You could use some of my questions, but come up with your own. I really thought about these in relation to you and conversations we've had in the past. These are more questions I wanted to hear your opinion on. I should make an Andrew specific.
01:11:10
Speaker
I won't be lazy.
01:11:18
Speaker
I think that's yeah. Okay, before we sign off, what is one piece of media, it could be film, television, music, whatever, that you've watched recently, or like experience consumed that has stuck with you. I have one, but just plug it now I'll plug mine and we'll conclude. I want to plug dark winds and
01:11:45
Speaker
That is a show set in the 70s about a Native American sheriff trying to solve a crime on the reservation. And it has to do with interactions with the FBI, Native Life. It's a show starring almost exclusively Native Americans, you know, directed by Native Americans. It's got great cultural references. I loved it. Watched it with my father for a recent week trip I took out to visit my parents.
01:12:13
Speaker
And I just thought it was a really enlightening show to watch. What's it on? What network? It's on AMC. Oh, sweet. All right. Cool. I guess that's a good, like, primer, or at least appetizer, if you will, leading into the Killers of the Flower Moon, right? That's exactly what we decided to watch it, actually.
01:12:36
Speaker
Oh, nice. All right. I will add that to my list. I recently, I know I'm late to the party, recently watched both seasons of The White Lotus, and I waited a long time to do it, but I believe the hype now. I really love The White Lotus. You know what I think The White Lotus is, though? I think what it does is it takes reality TV and makes it a serious drama show.
01:13:04
Speaker
It does. It's exactly what it is. It's like schlock with depth, if that makes sense.
01:13:18
Speaker
Like I was there like, why am I watching this so like, I'm like, and I was like, because it's just a bunch of drama with people. Like, it's just people's lives falling apart. And you normally see that in reality TV, which I don't watch a whole lot of reality TV. I don't watch any reality TV. But a lot of people love it. And I was like, you know, I think that's what this is. It's just packaged in a I mean, it's smart. It's it's interesting. And you know, it's well written and all that well acted.
01:13:48
Speaker
But I think it itches or scratches that itch for me or for people that sometimes you just want to watch like dramatic things unfold and things just spiral kind of out of control because our lives are so neatly ordered. You know, society presents this neatly ordered way of living. Sometimes you just want to watch Jennifer Coolidge take a dive off a boat.
01:14:15
Speaker
Yeah. Or the world burned like a joker. All right. Well, I think, um, those are two good plugs at the end there. Um, thank you, Andrew. Those were good questions and I look forward to the next episode. Yeah. Thank you for, for taking the time to answer them Zach. All right, folks with that, we bid you adieu.