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Ep. 10: Kate Fettes - How Soil Health Fuels Global Sustainability
39 Plays7 months ago
“We're overfed and undernourished or underfed and undernourished, and there's this total imbalance in the food system from start to finish.”
How do we address the pressing global challenges of environmental sustainability and access to healthy land? Could the answer lie in the soil beneath our feet? We’re all witnessing the growing impact of climate change, food insecurity, and environmental degradation on our lives and communities. With these overwhelming problems, it’s easy to feel powerless. But what if we could turn to solutions that start at the most fundamental level—our soil?
Prioritizing soil health can lead to ripple effects that create systemic changes, addressing broader global challenges. From enhancing food production to boosting climate resilience, we’ll discuss practical strategies for cultivating healthier ecosystems and communities, paving the way for a more sustainable and resilient planet.
Kate Fettes is the Director of Policy and Research for Canadian Organic Growers and the cofounder of The Rainmaker Enterprise, an organization dedicated to providing access to safe water in hard-to-reach areas of Africa. She’s also an ambassador for the Institute for Economics and Peace and holds a master's degree in Conflict Security and Development from King’s College in London. Her work is at the forefront of creating solutions for some of the world’s most complex challenges.
Are you passionate about sustainable farming, climate solutions, and making a positive global impact, be sure to check out:
Canadian Organic Growers at COG.ca
Farmers for Climate Solutions at FarmersForClimateSolutions.ca.
The Rainmaker Enterprise at RainmakerEnterprise.org.
Book mentioned: Nourishment by Dr. Fred Provenza.
Explore these valuable resources to further your journey in regenerative design:
Discover more about Paulownia trees and their sustainable potential at https://www.paulownia-la.com/.
Dive into the Twelve Laws of Nature and unlock the secrets of harmonizing with our planet at https://www.12lawsofnature.com/.
Fulfill your garden aspirations with expert guidance from the Garden of Your Dreams masterclass at https://www.gardenofyourdreams.com/.
Ready to take actionable steps towards your dream garden? Book a complimentary 30-minute training session with Matthieu for immediate results: https://calendly.com/garden-of-your-dreams.
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Transcript
Human-Ecosystem Interconnection
00:00:02
Speaker
separating ourselves from our environment and from ecosystems allows us to start to try to make these kind of divisions between what's more important and what's less important. A long-term step would really be to break down that kind of division and see more of a interconnected nature of ourselves and the world that we live in. These are precious resources, overfed and undernourished or underfed and undernourished, and there's this total imbalance in in the food system from start to finish.
Introduction to Katie Feddes
00:01:09
Speaker
Okay. Hello. Welcome again to the Regenerative Design Podcast. Today we have another special guest. Her name is Katie Feddes and Katie has an impressive list of achievements. Katie is in fact the Director of Policy and Research for the organization, Canadian Organic Growers. She's also the co-founder of the Rainmaker Enterprise that focuses on creating access to safe water in hard to reach regions in Africa. She's also an ambassador of the Institute for Economics and Peace, and she holds a master degree in conflict security and development from King's College in London. So Katie, wow, that's a really impressive list ah of achievements. How are you doing today?
00:01:54
Speaker
ah Thank you, Matthew. Thank you so much for having me here. um I'm looking forward to the conversation and doing well today. I've been in Canada, so it's been warmer than usual and no snow for the most part over the winter, but it actually has just snowed this morning. So we finally have some, yeah, we finally have some snow. It's really up and down these days.
Katie's Educational Journey and Influences
00:02:17
Speaker
Because usually ah in in your area of the world, you have snow all winter, right?
00:02:24
Speaker
Yes, exactly. So it's been an irregular one. how Interesting. So yeah, tell me Katie, where like i read I find it interesting that you went to London to study there. tell me Tell me a bit more about that. Yeah. So when I went to London, I actually went through the Rotary International Global Grant Scholarship Program. So Rotary is It's a global service club. I think most people know about Rotary because it's all spread out around the world. And out it's it's kind of plateauing in some areas of the world, but growing quickly in others. um so so But one of the programs that they have is to support young people to go and study ah globally. So to to qualify, you have to go outside your country. So I'm from Canada, so I i decided to go somewhere where I could
00:03:16
Speaker
study ah conflict security and development and this program was offered at ah King's College in London so that's where I decided to go and it followed after I was studying um ah peace and peace conflict and justice here within Canada so it's kind of like an expan it's ah interdisciplinary um kind of study but it was an expansion of ah what I was doing before so that was really the the place to go to do it and it was a one-year experience and I was happy to be supported by Rotary to do that. Wow, that's amazing. That's that's really cool that you got to do that. And I have a sense here before like before we get more into your current work with ah but the Organic Growers Organization and in farming, I have a sense here that you are very passionate of having an impact on our world and doing good for our planet.
Youth Perspective on Global Challenges
00:04:10
Speaker
Like, tell me, where did all of this start? Is there some part in your early days as a child that could already given in and a direction that you were going to work on this later on in your life? Yeah, I think there are always those seeds that get planted when you were younger that lead you into where you are. Like, I think all of our lives are kind of path dependent in that way. So I grew up in Northern Ontario, ah you know, in the in the natural ah kind of environment, beautiful forest and lakes and abundance of water around. And so you can really see, I think once you start to go further out and get some more exposure to different areas and and all of that, these are precious resources. And um I think that i I would have started in kind of in the community and just in involving myself in community initiatives and then recognizing the importance of that.
00:05:11
Speaker
like building community for, you know, for, for, for strong towns, strong communities, strong societies. And it just kind of goes up from there. And so it's also driven by a curiosity, right? So if you look at the world, the world is just like, you know, the and the history, it's just conflict, right? And, and these,
00:05:34
Speaker
these um arguments that just kind of build up over time and and history and involves millions of people and um and these divisions and all of this so I think it's just it was part of a trying to get to the bottom of this understanding okay where is this coming from and so that led me into um peace conflict and justice studies and that's really more of an interdisciplinary kind of program um You could look at sort of international relations as a kind of, um, I guess related program to that, but that teaches you more about like state state building. Right. And I think that we, as, as young ish people still right now, we have this sense that, you know, we're facing these big, um, problems that kind of transcend across states. And we look at this um system that we have.
00:06:31
Speaker
our global system we have today and we wonder how well equipped is this in order to be able to deal with some of these challenges, some of these big challenges, right? And ah and and I think we find ourselves in this position right now today where we're finding our institutions are number one crumbling in a certain sense and and even beyond that sometimes it's perpetuating and causing and leading to these problems that are um just putting people at risk right and putting societies at risk. I've actually read an interesting book about I can't come up with the title but the book was really about it was a brief history of ah humankind but a positive one like they kind of went in and debunked all of the
00:07:21
Speaker
the bad things that happened in humanity and that oftentimes it was mostly due to like misconceptions or um wrong thinkings that these kind of became like conflicts. Like both sides were thinking they were doing something good. Like kind of debunked the idea that humans are intrinsically bad.
00:07:41
Speaker
because that was like or that is maybe still a paradigm that if we don't have governance, if we don't have rules, humans become very bad. So I'd love to hear your your perspective on on that as well. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, the big philosophical question. people are People are mostly good, but I think that under immense pressure, people have to do what they need to do. And then also people people acting as appendages of these bigger institutions ah end up not showing up as people first, right? And that's where things start to go awry, I think. And so you can really see like the decisions that that that people are making when they're acting through, you know, big companies or through governments are are, they seem to be antithetical to what you would want to do if you're acting in the best interest of ah yourself, your family and your community.
00:08:39
Speaker
And so I feel like there's kind of a tension there. Um, but, but at the end of the day, you know, if we can have people in governance relationships and also social relationships where it's more of a pro social behavior, right? And it brings out the the positive side in you. This is what we have to do. And I feel like we need to find new kinds of structures that we can, that we can allow people to feed into, um, and,
00:09:08
Speaker
And because really people are just kind of stuck in all of these crazy, crazy different kinds of structures.
Political and Environmental Discussions
00:09:15
Speaker
But I think to go back on the question before, and it it helps to answer how I kind of led to where I am now is that when we're studying in our program, I remember that they have this ah kind of separation that they make in political science that really kind of hit me where they call it high politics and low politics.
00:09:36
Speaker
And the high politics is really what they consider as you know what's existential to their survival of a state. So these are issues of national security and and international security. And those are like things that a a state's going to go to war over. Right. And then you have issues of what they call low politics, which is like well-being, welfare, you know, all of these things that are really, you know, and and it's just I think indicative of this kind of separation of the mind that we have done and also separating ourselves from our environment and from our, you know, from ecosystems that allows us to start to try to make these kind of divisions between what's more important and what's less important. And what we really need to do is, number one, elevate issues of environmental security to be seen as national security. But that's an interim step
00:10:35
Speaker
because then the long-term step would really be to break down that kind of division and see more of a interconnected nature of ourselves and the world that we live in. So I think for me, as we went through the the studies, I didn't necessarily get all of that from there, but it led me and my peers to be seeing, okay, ah you know, it really comes down to environmental stability and access to land and and beyond that access to healthy land. And that really hinges around the issue of soil and soil health. you know that's That's an area that I think you've come to as well yourself. And so I kind of came into it from this security perspective. It's looking at what soil is doing to food production, food security, food sovereignty, and then beyond that, it goes up up and up and up to societal security.
00:11:34
Speaker
Yeah, I really ah really like that that perspective or that analysis that you give that basically, if I understand it correctly, that the policymakers really focus on big threats, like the big threats of security, of war and economic, that the economy would go down, that like climate change is going to have a huge impact.
00:11:58
Speaker
like that these like kind of focusing on the negative and focusing on making the negative less negative rather than the other approach that you mentioned like let's try and make things really good and then it's gonna solve all of the above problems like I think that's that's something that I really like like if we can build communities farming food production and and start like from the ground up, this is going to have ripple effects on so many of these higher aspects. So yeah, did I understand that correctly? Yes, for sure. So building from the ground up and around the issue of food, because really around the issue of food and the food system is in one sense where it's kind of like the center of where we've gone awry in a global sense, right? we're
00:12:53
Speaker
overfed and undernourished or underfed and undernourished. And there's this total, you know, imbalance in, uh, in the food system from start to finish. And, you know, and in one sense also like societies are organized around trying to secure access to those critical resources, you know, and, and food is, is the top food and water are the top really. So these should be things that, that will, you know,
00:13:20
Speaker
We will go to all lengths to protect, you know, access to these things. But instead we see, you know, these huge budgets going to conflict and things that are exacerbating food insecurity, right? While at the same time struggle to find public resources to put towards health care, wellbeing, food security, sovereignty. Some of these things that would really helped us to reduce the pressures of conflict and ah the resources that are going that way.
00:13:50
Speaker
So i think it's I think it's right what you're saying. It's taking all these resources and redirecting them towards things that that actually build resilience for people and allows people to you know keep control over their own lives and and just kind of build out from there, from the ground up. I think it's right what you're saying. Yeah, that's amazing.
00:14:11
Speaker
And then I might have, and and I think I have another feeling that once you got into the the the area of conflict, war, um all the topics where you kind of took off in your professional life, that soon enough you you came across agriculture and food production and saw a huge potential in mitigating a lot of these things. Is that correct? Is that the way that you got into the work you're doing today?
Regenerative Agriculture and Climate Impact
00:14:39
Speaker
Yes, it's correct.
00:14:41
Speaker
And it's because I think, like, you know, we think of regenerative agriculture as something that we that's, you know, a critical kind of turning point that can help us to restore and come back from all of these negative trends we're seeing in all of this, which is true. But it's also like, a you know, you need to be in a kind of stable position before you want to make this long term commitment. That's one way we look at regenerative agriculture, right? It's a long term kind of journey.
00:15:09
Speaker
Um, it takes resources. It's a risky thing to do. Um, especially when you're transitioning from, you know, from, uh, a different kind of, from sort of the industrial model or you're kind of yeah stepping off the treadmill of high input, high output sort of thing. And, um, but where I, where I, the the context in which I actually started with it was, uh, in what you mentioned at the beginning was with the Rainmaker enterprise. So when I was, um,
00:15:39
Speaker
In undergrad, so when I was studying in peace and conflict studies, we had a student in the course who was studying as a refugee from South Sudan. and ah And one reason for becoming a refugee is the conflict, of course, but the other is really food insecurity and the impacts of climate change, right, which South Sudan is experiencing as one of the most vulnerable countries to this, to the impacts of climate change.
00:16:08
Speaker
So we're you know we're kind of over here in our area of the world maybe saying this is a future issue that's coming and and you know people in in South Sudan and and also around the region are dealing with this cyclical extreme cycles of flood and drought and then flood again and drought. And wondering how can we have so too much water that's displacing million people you know a year and then we can have no water at all.
00:16:36
Speaker
And not to mention, this is a society that depends, you know, the great majority on food production, primary food production, as not only the source of food, but the source of livelihood. So climate change is really driving like a complete situation of insecurity, including food insecurity in this region. And conflict is just feeding into that.
00:17:00
Speaker
And it's really, you know, and it really has to do with security to be able to manage your land properly. Because as we know, if you have a healthy soil, you can be able to mitigate flood, you can be able to mitigate the impacts of trout. On the other hand, you get the water cycle going again. So it's an issue of, you know, the water cycle is is completely out of balance and out of whack. um And we're not seeing long term responses to that we're seeing you know the humanitarian sector is dominating its in right yeah so i i just want to jump into there that
00:17:38
Speaker
I came to understand that the humanitarian aid in Africa that Europe has done and other Western countries, obviously, when when people are in real hunger, it's necessary to send them food right away so that they they they don't starve literally. But then there was other research, and this was specifically happening in the 90s to 1000s in Europe,
00:18:01
Speaker
that because you the European agricultural system was so heavily subsidized that we had way too much milk production. like There was just too much milk for the demand there was. So then Europe thought, okay, wait, we're going to make all that milk into powder and we'll send it for free to Africa. See, this is something good that we can do. The thinking was good, right? But then what happens locally, it's really devastating that and nobody thought about it at that time, obviously, they Imagine a community in Africa, there's a farmer, there's ah people that are doing grains, some have cattle, they're producing milk, theyre there's like a ah ah local community that is functioning. Now all of a sudden you get free milk products milk powder in that community. Now everybody goes and gets the free milk and the farmer that has his own cows can't sell his own milk. And he has to start ah slaughtering his cow because he can't afford to feed them.
00:18:57
Speaker
And this has actually had a massive impact on Africa and made things even worse. like This is really something that that yeah people considered and we have to be very wary and in like giving food to to certain areas and
Rainmaker Enterprise and Community Solutions
00:19:13
Speaker
under stress. it But I think the work you are doing with your organization there is is really helping the people locally to to improve the water quality and and and more specifically the capacity to hold water into the soil. So yeah, I just wanted to jump in. in No, exactly. Yeah. and And you're talking about displacing local production and, you know, displacing the resilience of, you know, people to be able to be in charge of their own production. This is an issue of food sovereignty and it's a bigger issue of
00:19:45
Speaker
ah colonial history, right? And it's like a kind of a vestige of the colonial period of, you know, oh, we can all this, we'll just send this there and short term fix solution, the problem. And so this is really where Rainmaker started was from this young man who was in our course saying, you know, I grew up receiving aid for the first quarter of my life, or what, and the ah next three quarters are not going to be like that, you know, because We have seen aid come and go, organizations come and go, and we're not going to be willing to base our own security on the kind of, you know, ups and downs of and whims of the kind of global food system and the global humanitarian food system beyond that. Even though yes, of course, it plays a critical role in emergency situations.
00:20:40
Speaker
And that access is is critical, but when it starts to become a chronic situation, you have to think, you know, this is not really what this is designed for. And so he had wanted to start something that would be permanent. And so this is where the Rainmaker Enterprise comes in is water provision for clean drinking water, but also water for food production. So it's a multi-purpose kind of infrastructure community owned and led infrastructure.
00:21:10
Speaker
using solar energy to create access to water for all the different purposes. As you also have too, the kind of global global or outside of the ground up response would be single problem, single solution, a bit more of a linear kind of approach. So drinking water, so it's a well, boom. And then, you know, water for food, it's a separate thing. But people are saying, no, we need, you know, we need to have this integrated and community led access to infrastructure for all of our resource needs. It also helps to create a local piece, because at the kind of local level, you have intercommunal issues over resource access if it becomes scarce. And so having this kind of community managed system is something that's been working. And so you can kind of see in this kind of emergency situation, you actually have no choice but to go for a permanent ah regenerative solution.
00:22:09
Speaker
And that's what that's what Rainmaker has started to do. Yeah, that's incredible because that really fits into the idea of like we have to be very wary of how we support people, right? Like if you just give them food for free or even very cheap food, it might have a destructive effect on the local economy.
00:22:30
Speaker
And what you're doing is you're looking at it from a holistic approach, like, okay, one thing is food, but there's also water, this community building, there's climate, that's let's bring all of this together, because as it turns out, this regenerative approach, or you can call it many names, but this way that you look at things more holistically happens to solve most of the problems that are happening there. So that that's that's what I really like about the work you're doing there.
00:22:59
Speaker
Yes. Thank you. And problems to, you know, we have to be able to find integrated solutions because we're facing in what you could call integrated problems, like, you know, intersecting kind of issues that can spiral in a negative direction, like we're talking before, or if you can really get them moving in a positive way, they build a positive momentum. So yes, yeah solutions to one has to be solutions for all, for all if it's going to be truly sustainable. Amazing.
00:23:29
Speaker
So what are some of the results of the organization? I think it's been running for seven years if I read it correctly. Is that correct? Yes, it's been six or seven years now. So it started as a kind of a grassroots initiative. um I have always supported from this side. So we do a lot of outreach and, um you know, just awareness raising and people who want to support either financially or in other ways. We're going to mobilize them here in Canada. And then the founder Dooch was going back and forth and is now permanently there in the region. So stationed in Kenya and then moving back and forth. So now at this point, and the organization has
00:24:11
Speaker
um has several sites that are operating in terms of water access provision serving up to 30,000 people with water. So I think some of the, some of the the outcomes that you see are that people had to migrate because of lack of access to water. So this is now becoming a more common source of forced migration is just, there's no water in, you know, there's no reliable access to water here. so Now people who left their homes are being able to return back and but some man and come back home and start to rebuild. That is such an important worry because what we've have we've been seeing it now for
00:24:54
Speaker
It's actually only been for like five to 10 years, but there's huge waves of migration from Africa coming to Europe. And it's really devastating because these people are are and working with human smugglers, there's the human trafficking, there's all sorts of dodgy things happening for them.
00:25:12
Speaker
And they need to pay so much money to get on a tiny boat and cross the the the Mediterranean to get into Europe and then oftentimes to be sent back. It's really, really devastating. And it's not how it should be. And that the work you're doing makes sure that people can actually stay where they're born.
Climate Change and Migration
00:25:31
Speaker
and And obviously if they want to stay, because I think it should be still free to to move around on ah on our planet.
00:25:40
Speaker
But being having to move because of climate and having to move because of, like, there's nothing that you can do in your local communities, it's it's really a very dangerous situation. and And that's why your work is so important. Yes, absolutely. And that's what the founder says is, you know, making migration a choice and not a last resort. Because really, like you're saying, you don't leave your home or you want to.
00:26:09
Speaker
And this is a bigger and bigger problem. As we look at like that microcosm on a bigger scale, which is you know land degradation, desertification, and all of this. So people are people are moving. and And it's creating insecurity that just compounds. So we have to try to reverse that. And we can. We can, for sure. That's incredible. I really like that. And then to tie it back to the organization, your also working with in in Canada, is there even an exchange between these two? There there there is an exchange in the bigger sense that the Canadian organic growers now is part of iFoam, so the International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements. So there's members all over all over the world, right? And it's it's it's group and groups and a movement of people who are focused on ecological agriculture, agroecology,
00:27:08
Speaker
organic farming, you know, we have all these different kinds of, you know, modulations of the same idea, which is ecological egg culture. And so I film an umbrella that we're a member of and we're part of.
00:27:21
Speaker
And that does have members all over the world. And you can see, I guess, as it relates to um East Africa, there's some really exciting policy-related development in terms of and you know Tanzania just passed its ecological organic agriculture policy. I love that. Yeah, I know some countries in Africa are really stepping up and some cities as well. It's amazing to see. And and yeah can you talk a bit more about specifically about the policy in in Tanzania?
00:27:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's, um it's just it's a federal policy that's really about not just organic farming, but ecological organic farming. So it's, it's, it's meant to try to look at what are the best practices, and to make sure that producers have access to, you know, produce in the way that they want to, which is organically, if they choose that, and that they would have access to markets. So that has to include both the production supports and the market supports. And we here in Canada have been working with um a particular ah consultant who is ah from Denmark, but also working in the EU and now working also in East Africa and trying to work with us in Canada to advance this kind of knowledge sharing and seeing, okay, what are other cities, communities, localities, countries doing when it comes to public policy?
Supporting Sustainable and Organic Farming
00:28:45
Speaker
um to support organic farming. Because other countries and other regions are really, and I mean we're starting to hear as well, seeing organic farming as and ecological farming as a mechanism that they're going to be able, a tool that they can use in order to meet their biodiversity commitments, their climate change commitments, their economic resilience and development commitments,
00:29:12
Speaker
um all around the world, right? And we all need to be moving in that direction. And the same for you and that you is with, you know, under the farm to fork strategy, 25% of farmland to be organic by 2030. So you're seeing these, you know, these connections being made at the policy level and these huge, you know, commitments with resources behind them, um you know, goals and targets and all of this.
00:29:39
Speaker
Uh, and it includes some common things. Um, you know, like we said, production support, um, market access, you will hope that it's building local resilience as well. Um, I think that we have this tension where we're operating in this globalized food system that we were talking about before. And so we really have to watch, okay, are we balancing properly this, like this and the way that our food system is globalized, but also with the need to have.
00:30:09
Speaker
local food security and rebuild community at the same time. So it's definitely a tension that's there, but there are some common elements. And so now we're trying to work the same in Canada. Yeah, I think that's an amazing approach rather to focus on support, to getting access to market, to to getting access to knowledge, because the organic label in Europe which is bio has been, like it's it's commonly known as bio in Europe, it's been on under quite a bit of pressure as well because what the what it does is actually makes it
00:30:48
Speaker
the life of organic farmers wait way more difficult. There's like way more bureaucracy that they have to do. The the guidelines are are very strict and it makes it the production way more expensive as well. So organic has also been like going a bit sideways in in Europe or in some countries.
00:31:09
Speaker
And I think putting the focus rather than this is again like so similar to what we talked about at the beginning, like rather to focus on doing things less bad, because even in our getting and the BO label, there's still things that are allowed such as copper, which is copper is is very toxic as well. And it's bad for the soil, definitely in high doses. And like for organic potatoes in in Europe, it's still commonly used.
00:31:37
Speaker
And it's not good for the health, it's not good for the soil. So rather than focusing on doing things less bad or less chemically, try and focus on doing it really good. And then that's why the regenerative organic approach really fits in well, I think. Yes. Yeah. Yes. The best practice approach. And yeah, there's, we have a researcher here in Canada who says, you know, maybe the dichotomization of conventional versus organic is actually less It's not the right one. I think that most people who are in the kind of regenerative realm are, yes, of course, you know we need to transcend this kind of binary anything. you know But it's it's less interesting even from a research perspective because you have such a spectrum of management.
00:32:25
Speaker
right just across the board, whether you have your organic certification or not, or whether, yeah you know, your approach you're using, there's just a spectrum of management that's achieving certain outcomes. And, exactly you know, and and totally, if you're doing everything, you know, right, if you're if you're if you're putting the most in, you should be rewarded for that. And I think this is one of the challenges. And that's part of what, you know, organic farmers who are who are really doing their best are Facing is okay that you might incur extra expenses. um You should be recognized and rewarded for that on the basis of the outcomes that yourre that you're achieving. So I think you're totally right. The regenerative um mindset has a lot to offer in terms of working towards the best outcomes.
00:33:16
Speaker
This podcast is brought to you by the Garden of Your Dreams Masterclass. Are you struggling with finding the right tools and tricks for your garden? Are you lacking the confidence to cultivate the garden you have always wanted? Do you have a backyard with lots of potential, but you get overwhelmed by the lack of knowledge and time to do gardening? Then the Garden of Your Dreams Masterclass is for you. Yeah, and I think then it's also really about focusing on outcome basis. like I've also, together with my brother, who's a farmer in Belgium, we've we've been invited to speak for the ah greekcological and an agroecological organization in in Belgium that gives direct advice to to the European Commission, um for the specifically for the Green Party. And were what they were really focusing about is is rather to focus on on legislations about what is allowed and what is not allowed within organic
00:34:15
Speaker
It was more about what are the outcomes. They were talking, and this is happening with the Green Deal now, is that farmers will be rewarded for the amount of biodiversity that they have. yeah You have researchers that come out to the farm and they count the amount of insect they count, how healthy your soil is. And based on that, the farmers get their subsidies. And I think that's a great approach because that really incentivizes farmers to do it.
00:34:42
Speaker
And on top of that, it will help them on the long run to be more to be more resilient but to with the practices that they they apply. yep Yes, absolutely. I agree. and And here in Canada too, we have our organic standard. So it's, you know, it's federally regulated standard, which is one of the strengths of the organic is that you have that infrastructure there that's recognized. So that's why organic is kind of a tool that you can use towards achieving best outcomes. But it's, you know, it's along this whole spectrum that everybody needs to move ah along. But it can, it's really a market based approach that can really help you to maintain what you're doing and all of that.
00:35:24
Speaker
But every five years, the standard gets reviewed. And so anybody, it's kind of a democratic process in the sense that anybody can propose, you know, an update to the standard. So the standard really, it has the potential to be, you know, to be a really top kind of bar, and then it has process goes through. And but we but people also in one sense, kind of regard organic as a marketing tool. And I think that We have more to do in terms of seeing it as a, you know, as a systems approach towards best outcomes. Um, and, and just moving in that direction. So from the policy perspective, that's one of the things that we push for is, you know, our, our regulators recognize and and regulate organic because they know that, you know, we have to meet the demands of consumers and demands for transparency and all these things, but we also need.
00:36:22
Speaker
support for producers to achieve best outcomes and recognize them for doing that. So this is where you need support on the program side for farming programs that are really helping people to achieve resilience and you know, like you're saying profitability and and ecological health and all of that. Yeah, let's talk a bit more about the the programs that you're talking about programs that are part of the the Canadian organic growers organization. Is that correct?
00:36:53
Speaker
I'm talking, yes, we can talk about that, but also just about public policy programs that are available to all farmers. Yeah, I see. ah yeah But let's dive back a little bit more to the organization. So how are you supporting farmers directly or how how are you supporting farmers ah with the organization?
00:37:14
Speaker
Yeah, so the Canadian Organic Rose, it has been almost 50 years that we've been here. So next year will be our 50th anniversary. It started as a grassroots organization um well long before we had the federal rule standard and regulation, but now we've had that for almost 15 years. So it's really about exchanging information between farmers. So one of the big things we do is we have guidebooks that are, you know,
00:37:41
Speaker
field crop planning or horticulture crop planning, just those kind of knowledge exchange materials um that has been one of the things that's been a mainstay for a long time. And then also now today we have a lot of different programs that target different audiences. So number one is farmers. So farmer extension and transition support is huge. We have to have more ah access to an availability of extension support of skilled extension and knowledgeable extension that's independent of I think agribusiness because most of the time today you'll find extension is available through input supply companies. And so we really need to have- Yeah, that's correct. Most farmers get their farming advice from bigger companies that get their profits from selling chemical products. So it's not in their best interest to do it.
00:38:41
Speaker
that is necessarily good for the soil or good for the long-term, right? Yes. And it's hard if your job is, you know, use this input and then turning around and saying, don't use this input. Use it, don't use it. It's kind of a mental challenge for somebody. So we need to really have much more access to independent extension support. So this is one of the programs that we have is a regenerative organic transition support program.
00:39:07
Speaker
and Right now we're working with um with producers who are growing oats and they're trying to move towards regenerative organic. And it's kind of a pilot program for what can be expanded a lot. It's just providing that community of practice. That's one huge part of it. It's like a farm peer learning network, and bringing resources among people and then also to people who are within that network. And we can expand it.
00:39:34
Speaker
It's in the ah prairies right now. So it's in one of our big farm producing areas in the country. How about we can expand it all across the country and we can expand it to different crops and different and diversified systems as well. So I think that just building on that kind of local strength, that's one of the superpowers of the program, um but this network that spreads across the country. So that's one.
00:40:02
Speaker
And then I think another one that's a really exciting um kind of thing that we have going on in Canada is a coalition called Farmers for Climate Solutions. So this was launched about four years ago now, and it was started as a policy coalition of ah farming associations that really wanted to, you know, push for more policy support for farmers to adapt and respond to climate change. The need to adapt, but also the possibility to lead on mitigation.
00:40:31
Speaker
and all together the groups and COG was one of the founding groups so all together the groups are about 28 or so and they represent more than 10% of the farming sector so it's a significant enough amount that you can really make a difference and they've had success in we've had success in policy um we helped to have a new program introduced called the on-farm climate action fund program that provides financial support to producers adopting ah management practices or rotational grazing, cover cropping and nutrient management so far. And now they're looking at renewing and expanding that. um But farmers for climate solutions now has expanded into providing on field support. So COG has developed the training program for cover cropping in particular, um as kind of a, you know, something that's really that the organic sector has a lot of experience with and can share that out to the broader farming sector.
00:41:31
Speaker
So it's another thing that you see, right? Is that organic producers are really on the edge of innovating and developing and prototyping practices, you know, best practices. And those are things that as, as others kind of see this need to build a resilience into their operations and they're going to look, you know, what are the organic, what are the organic guys doing? And trying to pick that up. So we're really trying to spread that out now.
00:41:59
Speaker
And then beyond that, we have a program in schools with kids. So we have our growing up organic program, and we also have a consumer education program. So we're just trying to work with all. That's really cool. I think that's that's the three most important pillars, right? If we have to get the farmers involved, that's one massive thing. But then if the consumers are not convinced, and then it's then it's kind of it's not going to work. And that's one of the big things that I heard here some, some journalists or I read an article about it that in, and this was specifically about Europe that the, the person that goes to vote is a different person that goes to the supermarket and buys his products. It's, it's in itself, it's the same person, but the one that goes to vote obviously wants to have a greener, a more sustainable future that is more good for the nature, but then
00:42:56
Speaker
Once he goes to the supermarket, he'll he'll be more, um they'll buy more like cheaper food, right? So it's kind of contradictory. And that's why also now the farmers are in in ah and a lot of stress. like It's like you want us to produce cheap food, but then also become really um good for our planet.
00:43:21
Speaker
And I believe that they do tie together as well at some point, but it's really that transition that is is the most difficult and the most overwhelming for farmers. And sometimes it's just not even in their in their mind because they're so financially like blocked that they can't take any risk or any transition. And that's where the the support becomes really important because I do believe if you prepare it very well, you can become more profitable without going like Like down, there's like this this graph that says like when you make the transition, you'll have a one or two years that your profit goes down before your profit goes up again. And I think we can curb that that line by the sharing and support of of yeah what you do, what other organizations are doing work, what consultants are doing. yeah And I have one big question to you around that is like, what in your opinion is the is the most important thing for farmers to to make that click and say like,
00:44:19
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I'm going to change my farming system. or well What can you see as as like a thing that makes that transition happen? Yeah, I think and think it's elements of all of the things that you've just said in over the last couple of minutes because it's ah it's um you know a journey for everybody.
00:44:42
Speaker
And, but you see a lot of people making that shift into regenerative and into towards organic because of, you know, because of some kind of, um, you know, scare or moment that happened where like a financial crisis either acute or prolonged where they're saying, okay, I can't do this anymore. You know, like we have, um, one of our regenerative pioneers here in North America, Gabe Brown,
00:45:08
Speaker
who had hailstraps four years in a row that took out his entire crop. And then he was just like, okay, I don't have any more money to to spend on all of these inputs. I have to find another way to do this. Like I just have to get creative if I'm gonna um continue with this. So i think I think it's that. And then once you start down the path, then you know you really can get rolling with it. um But what we see, and we're still in this kind of stage of like,
00:45:38
Speaker
pioneers or early adopters or what is, like you're saying, there's there's a complete lack of ah comprehensive support for the transition.
Farming Transitions and Support Systems
00:45:47
Speaker
So the people who have made the transition and are really leading on it, they've taken a lot of risk on their own shoulders. And you also find those same people taking a lot of their time to go and be able to provide that support and knowledge of what they how they've been successful ah to others. So I really think that we're in this kind of early adopter stage. And now is the perfect time to recognize, okay, we have this transition period, and we can characterize it better, you know, we need support for three years, you know, that the process towards getting your organic certification is three years. So that's a good concrete one. um But you know, we usually say it would take anywhere between three, three and 10 years before you can really
00:46:33
Speaker
change your way of thinking. um So I think that it's it's one thing is really having that access to the to the peer learning network. And people can be able to tell you, hey, you know, you can reduce your inputs. People are spending more and more and more on input costs. You know, I think this is a global thing. And then, you know, once you see quite quickly, right, some progress. And I think the and Christine Jones, a soil scientist, she said, you know, we think that it takes thousands of years to build soil if it's on its own, but you can really see progress within 12 months and a significant progress within three years if you're doing it, you know, if you're doing it properly. So people need to have that access to, you know, mentorship and guidance. So it's so important what you're doing, right, is mentorship mentorship and guidance and helping people with the design. That they can be successful faster and not get discouraged.
00:47:32
Speaker
But then with what you're saying about prices, I think it's very important that the market will be there at the end of the day. So it's not going to be sustainable unless really there's a, you know, people can sell their products and be recognized for for that. And I think one thing that, um, uh,
00:47:50
Speaker
The guy who works with us in Denmark, he said is that it takes everybody, right? And so you also have to work with retailers because what you're saying, people are going to go to the grocery store and we're dealing with, you know, uh, affordability crisis here now as well and inflation and all of this. So people want to, they're feeling so torn because okay, I want to be able to make better individual choices, but there's a lack of choices for me to make. And what they did in Denmark is they worked with retail and they had partnerships there.
00:48:20
Speaker
where you had these big retailers coming out and saying, you know, everyone should be able to afford healthy food, right? And that includes organic food. And so that's just it. It's, it's not saying, okay, you're going to have to make this impossible choice, but instead it's saying, you know, it's your right. It's your absolute right to be able to have healthy food because that's really at the basis of your health. And then going back to what we talked about before,
00:48:50
Speaker
That's at the basis of the health and functioning of the whole society at large. So I think that it's a combination of things that all has to come into place. But once you get a good momentum going, then it just, it just goes. So we're starting to see little glimmers of it. And now is the perfect time for public policy support to recognize that. Yeah, I think as well that if it kind of has ah an exponential effect, like there's all these pillars that you just touched upon.
00:49:20
Speaker
if each and all the each and every one of these pillars increases by one or two percent, yeah the whole becomes exponential. And that that's something that we got to experience on on our family farm as well. My brother's a farmer, we helped to transition. And like the farm was not under huge stress, but we know that we knew that bad things were gonna come, that that policies were gonna become stronger, that climate was gonna become tougher. So we made we started making shifts, we added new,
00:49:49
Speaker
in income streams to the business that are are more long-term oriented and then it became a success story and it took about seven years roughly to to a point where we could say okay now you can go to the consumer there's it's a farm that is open people come because that's the thing as well most of the industrial farms no farmer doesn't even want to show his farm because He's kind of, I wouldn't say they are a shame, but it's not not the nicest place to go to. So once they get into this more naturalistic approach, the farm becomes a beautiful place as well. And you can design gardens around it or or make it natural. And then the community can spend time there and you can actually market that as well as a farmer, because who has still access to a beautiful surrounding, so especially in in cities, like why not drive out
00:50:40
Speaker
from the city and on on on a Sunday to to visit the farm and spend some quality time there and eat some very high quality food. So these are like things that we added to the farm. And that's that's really cool to see. And and interestingly enough, it was also a generational switch. I mean, still my father is very active on the farm. But then the thing that we could see is like we as younger people people, we were more like inspired to make change, but then my father was overly scared.
00:51:09
Speaker
I'd say like, no, you should not do this. It's too high risk. And then we still kind of pushed it forward. And then once we could generate success stories, like with the cover crops, there's some amazing results. Then my father was like, well, okay, this really works. He told like, you're crazy doing cover crops. What what does it even mean? yeah But then we showed it to him and we showed the results and we showed that the, the, the,
00:51:35
Speaker
the yields became higher and then now he's the one who's sowing all the cover crops. So I think that's a big aspect as well to show the farmers. And and yeah even you have to show it on their farm specifically because farmers also have a tendency that if they say like on that farmland, it's working, but they'll be like, ah, but it's not gonna work on my farm. So they have to be incentivized to try out things on their own farm. And then obviously a massive part I think probably the biggest one nowadays because I think that the the access to the knowledge will become so cheap and readily available, especially with AI that is becoming more and more integrated in all of the systems. yeah it's not it's not the The issue is not around the information, it's about support and the mentoring and helping the farmers. Also on a on a mental level, farmers are under such deep
00:52:32
Speaker
pressures there are oftentimes under a lot of mental stress. yeah like Farmers even have the highest suicide rates globally in in terms of job. So it's it's kind of really important to focus on on that aspect as well, I think. Is that something that in in the organization it's it's worked on as well? Yes. Yeah. All the things you're saying, so important. Yeah.
00:52:57
Speaker
And we have here the National Farmers Union, which is a fantastic organization we have in Canada, has just done a a study and published a report on farmer mental health in Canada. And we're seeing the same struggle that people are facing. And so you have initiatives globally, I mean, and so you have initiatives that are coming up in terms of farmer mental health support networks. It's so critical.
00:53:24
Speaker
And also, too, with what you're saying about just reconnecting people to the source of their food. Canada is a very urban country, you know, it's massive, but most people are living very close to the US border in cities. So a lot of people are are quite disconnected from where their food comes from and what the that looks like at the farm level. And so there's more, I think, interest from younger people in, you know, kind of returning to the farm or um or wanting to start as a first generation farmer. And we have this huge generational shift coming. I think this is probably a global trend as well. But we have, you know, the average age of a ah farmer, I think it's 56 or 57. So a lot of people are getting ready to retire. And not many involved with succession planning.
00:54:15
Speaker
um kids want to come back to the farm, but maybe they don't see it as a viable pathway and and or people wanting to get into it and and the the cost is just absolutely prohibitive, right? So and it's really difficult to buy a farm or even to be starting out renting and we do have I think about 40% of farmers are leasing land. So there you have another And this is in Canada, it's the same in the US. So this is a North American trend. And there you have people who want desperately to make a long-term ecological kind of commitment, um but they don't have any type of security in that land, really. So if we can just have, you know, more access to bring younger people and also, you know, new immigrants to our country,
00:55:06
Speaker
Um, and, and, and everybody who's kind of left out of the the mainstream support farming, then we will really start to get somewhere in terms of diversifying, um, and creating a more ecological kind of farming sector here in North America.
Innovations in Resilient Farming Systems
00:55:23
Speaker
Demonstration farms is a huge part of that. If we could have a demonstration firm in every, you know, locality, at least every kind of bio region.
00:55:32
Speaker
Because it spreads across such a giant range of like agroclamatic zones, right? So you really have like farming in BC, compared to farming in, you know, Western Canada, Ontario, Quebec, the east coast, the north, it's totally different, right? So we really need to have these kind of, and this is the challenge at the federal policy level is, okay, what do you do over here versus here, we really need to have local demonstration sites everywhere that can be able to show everyone right here's what a regenerative setup looks here and it's really on this whole question of who's going to be feeding the world this is something that we're thinking about a lot you know as we have this growing population we have to provide more food out and um I remember also going back to Gabe Brown
00:56:26
Speaker
him saying, okay, you know, I hear this all the time about feed the world. And if you look at what I'm doing here, you know, I grow plenty of different crops, I've got, you know, all these different livestock, I'm going to bring them into graze. And so you have so much and different like vertically integrated business models and types of food also coming off of that one piece of land. And is that feeding the world before, you know, a monocrop system of uh you know of corn and soy that's oftentimes not feeding people right so who's going to feed the world first and that's what we really have to keep in mind is that diversity and rediversifying our farms yeah i really like that comment and it kind of ties back um with where we started like the compartment thinking like okay we have the economy then we have ecology then we have agriculture
00:57:25
Speaker
This kind of puts things into boxes and yeah it's not very good but because nowhere in the natural environment or nowhere in the universe, things are like completely separated. And I think how you answer the question to how are we going to feed the world, it's going to have to be very diverse because all of the other ways that of producing are are going to fail or are actually failing at the at the very moment.
00:57:52
Speaker
but That's the beauty of the story of Gabe Brown. like he He basically had no choice. And this is going to happen to to all of the other farmers that stay behind. But the longer they wait, the the harder the transition will be. And and like the climate is just getting more rough and rough. um Governments are not going to step down on on allowing more chemicals into agriculture. The day and age is gone. like europe is going to abandoned glyphosate within the next five years. They kind of pushed it again a couple of years, but it's like, it's inevitable. And that's what I also tell to farmers. Look at this. These are the securities of farming. Like they talk a lot about the insecurities, but these are actually the things that they are happening. It's like, you're sure about it. So let's let's act on it now. Yeah, yeah totally. Yeah. the The change is inevitable and resilient form of farming.
00:58:47
Speaker
is going to be the only way to farm, really. And um in the climate future that we're moving into, I think. So better if people can be supported to make that shift, for sure. Exactly. Because not for everybody to be, not everybody will have the opportunity to make a, like, if they're under very deep financial stress already, it will mean bankruptcy for them. So better to to act now and get support around it. Yeah. Yes, absolutely absolutely. Yeah, awesome. I think we're going to start wrapping things up here slowly. ah This has been an amazing talk. I think you're very knowledgeable about
00:59:34
Speaker
looking at things from a bigger perspective. I'm i'm very happy and thankful for for bringing that perspective into the podcast. That's really amazing. Is there any last words that you would like to share with my but the audience here? I think I just wanted to share one example that I thought of when you were um when you were talking about, you know, if you really look at how, you know, the natural world would have set up this ecosystem, find animals there.
01:00:04
Speaker
right We don't find and a functioning ecosystem that doesn't have animals in it. And so I think one what it's going to really take is big collaborative broad-based coalitions. So here in Canada, this is also around the world, this is why we have to be connecting more like you're saying to movements that are going on all over East east Africa, Southern Africa, everywhere, right? In Europe, everywhere.
01:00:32
Speaker
and it also is is locally and within the place where we are. So we need to have these bigger kind of, I guess, unconventional collaborations.
Defining Healthy Food and Production Methods
01:00:42
Speaker
And just one example that I thought of when you mentioned that is we have our, cat att the Canadian Cattle Association has been working in the Canadian Prairie with Docks Unlimited and a number of conservation groups. And they have this common, right, they have this common goal of protecting habitat for wildlife.
01:01:02
Speaker
And ah the Canadian grasslands are some of the most endangered ecosystems we have here in this country. And we have our livestock management, you know, our our grazers who are managing what remains of our grasslands. And I think together in this alliance with conservation groups to get the message out there to the public that, you know, as they say, it's not the cow, it's the how, it all comes back to our human management and how we manage you know, with and in these bigger ecosystems. So they've come out with a short documentary called Guardians of the Grasslands. And so I think that people can take a look at that. It's a really positive story. um It's really about, you know, people who are land stewards um really being connected and wanting to not just not just sustain, but regenerate and restore. And we can really get back to how these grasslands developed.
01:02:01
Speaker
with, you know, with animal impact. And that the the fact that I think people can have a positive impact environmentally is really a message that we have to hear now. And it's a challenge for those of us who live in cities. um But I think that just starting by connecting more with where your food source comes from is a great step. And then plugging into these bigger coalitions and collaborations.
01:02:27
Speaker
It's a much better way to go than this competitive kind of thing. We have to be collaborative. That's how we're going to make Yeah, I love that example that's that's a really great thing and I think that That's a common thing nowadays. There's there's so much discussions around what is healthy food and everybody is focusing on if is a banana good or not is meat good or not is a soybeans, is it bad for your hormones or not? And I think it's all the wrong discussions because it's really about how it's produced. And also each and every human is different. There's now research showing that each has a different because of our genetics, you might have different dietary preferences, like some people will do better with meat, some will do better with a vegan diet. So yeah I
01:03:18
Speaker
I don't think we have to look at it from a whole other perspective. You have to look at what is healthy for you ah at first, like what what you but you prefer to eat. And then obviously a big part is it like how is it produced? like Is it sprayed with chemicals? Is it cattle that is indoors most of the year? Or how how is it produced? Is it grass-fed beef? Then all of these things that are more naturalistic is going to be beneficial for your health.
01:03:47
Speaker
Most importantly, yes. And it's all about that aspect of reconnection. Like this all comes back to this theme is that, you know, as the nutritionist, Dr. Fred Provenza says, you know, we actually have this bodily wisdom to meet our nutritional needs. You know, our bodies know what we should be eating. Oh, I'm reading his book at the moment, actually. It's an amazing book.
01:04:13
Speaker
It's deep down their door. Yes. But we know how to nourish ourselves. So we really need to be trying to reconnect to those, um, those, you know, intuitive, um, kind of system that we have. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. We can shortly talk about the book. So this book is, it's a high, I can highly recommend it and I love it that you brought it up now. So it basically is a researcher that ah looked at how animals,
01:04:41
Speaker
were grazing and what they could see is that the animals were grazing different things at different moments based on what was healthy for them at that very moment. And we as humans would have that, and or we have that instinct as well, but we kind of got, we kind of lost it, but there's ways to to get back to that. So yeah, thank you for bringing up that book as well. ah It's an amazing book.
01:05:08
Speaker
Yes, it's a piece of of the puzzle. for sure. Exactly. Yeah. That's great that more and more research around that is is coming out. Yeah. Okay, perfect. Well, Katie, thank you very much for coming on the show. Just for our listeners, if they want to connect with you or connect with your organization in Canada or in Africa, how can they best ah get in touch with you?
Resources and Further Reading
01:05:32
Speaker
Okay, so you can find Canadian organic growers at cog.ca, cog.ca. Also the bigger coalition we're part of is farmers for climate solutions, farmersforclimatesolutions.ca. Rainmaker, if you want to connect there, rainmakerenterprise.org. And all of those are also on various social media platforms.
01:05:56
Speaker
So please find us and reach out. And we're working right now at Cogoner Organic Action Plan that we hope will feed into a bigger strategy for agroecology. And so we welcome collaboration and input from everyone in Canada and otherwise. and and I think everyone listening has something that they can do okay after that. Yes, I agree. It's all part of Doesn't matter what industry you're really active in, you're always a consumer. So there's always something that you can do. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. We'll put all these links in the show notes and people can just click on it. So yeah, Katie, thank you very much for being on the show. It was amazing. And have a great day. Thank you, Matthew. You too.