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Ep. 19 with Louis De Jaeger - Food Forests, Future Landscapes, and a World Beyond Lawns
48 Plays4 months ago
“If we want to change something on the planet, we first have to change our mindsets. And that starts with understanding the connection between humans and nature.”
Sustainable landscapes, edible forests, and a vision for a greener planet—this episode dives deep into the intersection of nature, gardens, and environment to lay the groundwork for a sustainable future. Our guest paints an optimistic yet urgent picture of how we can regenerate ecosystems and reshape the way we coexist with nature. Discussing topics from permaculture to the transformative power of invasive plants, he illustrates how regenerative practices can not only heal the land but also inspire communities and empower individuals. With a mix of hard science, personal anecdotes, and a vision for celebrating nature, this episode challenges traditional thinking and encourages listeners to take actionable steps toward a harmonious future. It’s not just about planting trees—it’s about planting hope and tasting the fruits of a better tomorrow.
Louis De Jaeger is a visionary landscape architect and the founder of The Comencalist, a firm dedicated to future-proof landscape design. With a passion for sustainable living, Louis co-founded the Food Forest Institute and the Bye Bye Grass campaign, aiming to replace traditional lawns with thriving, biodiverse alternatives. He’s also a documentary filmmaker, with works like The Food Forest and the upcoming Eat More Trees, combining his love for storytelling and nature. A public speaker, author, and advocate for regenerative agriculture, Louis is on a mission to inspire, regenerate, and celebrate our planet through innovative approaches to design and education.
Learn more and connect:
1. Fred Pierce’s Book: The New Wild: Why Invasive Species Will Be Nature’s Salvation
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22373317-the-new-wild
2. Documentary: The Food Forest
3. Documentary: Eat More Trees
4. Louis De Jaeger’s Website:
Explore these valuable resources to further your journey in regenerative design:
Discover more about Paulownia trees and their sustainable potential at https://www.paulownia-la.com/.
Dive into the Twelve Laws of Nature and unlock the secrets of harmonizing with our planet at https://www.12lawsofnature.com/.
Fulfill your garden aspirations with expert guidance from the Garden of Your Dreams masterclass at https://www.gardenofyourdreams.com/.
Ready to take actionable steps towards your dream garden? Book a complimentary 30-minute training session with Matthieu for immediate results: https://calendly.com/garden-of-your-dreams.
Recommended
Transcript
Mission to Regenerate Land
00:00:00
Speaker
I have three missions in life um and mission number one is literally regenerate as many hectares of land as possible and that's because you have this prediction of the United Nations that says that if we don't do anything if we keep on continue doing farming the way we do it today doing landscape design the way we're doing today and 2050 90 percent nine zero percent of our topsoil will be degraded Hello and welcome to the Regenerative Design Podcast. I'm your host Mathieu Mahes and in this show I interview the leading authorities in the world of regenerative practices. People who do good and do well. Are you a person that cares about your environment and our planet? Are you a person that wants to leave the planet to our children to be something that we can be truly proud of?
00:00:50
Speaker
something to enjoy for many generations to come. But are you also a person that believes we can do all of this and do good in business? Well, I have really good news for you. You're here listening to the podcast that is all about making our planet a better place and making your business more successful. Enjoy the show.
Introduction to Regenerative Design Podcast
00:01:16
Speaker
Hello and welcome to another amazing episode of the Regenerative Design Podcast. Today we have a very special guest. His name is Louis de Jager. And Louis is a landscape architect just like myself. He's the founder of the Commensalist, which is focusing on future-proof landscape design. Louis has also written numerous books on agriculture and how we can actually best save our planet. He's also a public speaker, he's the co-founder of the Food Forest Institute that is focusing on spreading knowledge about edible landscapes. He is also the co-founder of Bye Bye Grass, an amazing campaign to replace lawns by
00:01:57
Speaker
more sustainable alternatives. The list goes on. Last year he has also released a documentary called The Food Forest ah where he was the director and the music composer. He has another documentary and a new worldwide movement which is called Eat More Trees.
00:02:16
Speaker
And more recently, he also helped develop a sleeping train between ah Brussels and Berlin. Louis, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?
Louis' Life Missions
00:02:25
Speaker
Hey, I'm doing very fine. Thank you for having me, Mathieu. Yeah, it's incredible. You have such a long list of things that you've already accomplished accomplished at a very young age. like Do you still sleep or do you always sleep on the sleeping train? Well, good question. No, I actually need a lot of sleep. I'm sometimes very jealous of people that only need five hours, but I need eight hours of sleep. That's incredible. I actually have to sleep a lot.
00:02:51
Speaker
So just let's let's go a little bit back like or maybe a better question is when when you go to a dinner party and you kick together with Friends, maybe people that you don't know really well And everybody's talking talking and all of a sudden the room goes silence and they look at you and they say Louie What do you do?
00:03:10
Speaker
yeah How do you reply to that question? It depends on which scenery I am, because if I sometimes really tell what I do, I come over as a too big of a nerd. And people are like, what? um But I try to explain it very simple, um that I have three missions in life.
Concerns and Optimism about Soil Degradation
00:03:32
Speaker
um And mission number one is literally regenerate as many hectares of land as possible.
00:03:39
Speaker
And that's because you have this prediction of the United Nations that says that if we don't do anything, if we keep on continue ah doing farming the way we do it today, doing landscape design the way we're doing today, um and 2050, 90% of our topsoil will be degraded. So that's in less than 30 years. That 90% will be degraded. And then I'm a super optimistic, I'm a happy person. But if I hear this prediction, I'm like,
00:04:07
Speaker
I want to keep this happy paradise. I want to keep on having the possibility to go to a fantastic restaurant and have the best food you can imagine. But if 90% of our tops are integrated, we're going to have a lot of problems. People are going to die because of hunger and not only in developing countries, but also in the United States and Europe.
00:04:26
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um We already see it in Spain, where entire areas are are becoming deserts. and For me, that's my biggest driver in life, so I define myself by and that problem I want
Changing Mindsets for Tree Planting
00:04:40
Speaker
to solve. But maybe if you go a step further, I actually love this planet. I'm in love with this planet.
00:04:46
Speaker
and I enjoy people. I love people as well, so I'm not against people. I don't say that people are the bad guys. Of course, there are some bad guys, but they're only in the minority. um And even then, I would call them less informed guys or girls.
00:05:01
Speaker
um and um and And I actually just want to preserve or make this paradise even better. And for that, we need food. So regenerate as many hectares of land, inspire as many people as my second mission, because if we want to change something on the planet, we first have to change our mindsets. We cannot go and ah plant the seed on the field if the seed is not first planted in our minds. The people need to be ready, for example, to to do certain things, to plant more trees, for example, to have more trees in the landscape.
00:05:32
Speaker
yes In a lot of countries, farmers don't like trees. ah Why? Because they have a long history of tree people being angry at farmers. And then it's logical that they don't like trees because they don't like the tree people. um Interesting.
Celebrating Earth's Beauty
00:05:47
Speaker
And then the third mission is to celebrate. Nice. um And it doesn't mean that I go partying every night. You love music, right? I love music. po Yeah, if I have some free time, which I don't really have, I love to play piano. piano yeah I just learned it now. Yeah, I'm learning. Nice. Yeah, well, it's it's nice to, it's also very natural, right? oh yeah Music. um So, celebrate is more like being grateful.
00:06:14
Speaker
um I think we both are in the business of wanting to change the world. um But if you want to change something, you first have to like landscape architect observe what's already there yeah and be grateful what's already there. And if you look around, we are in a paradise. oh yeah This is an amazing place. We can just go to a place.
00:06:33
Speaker
use a card or even your cell phone, you push it against something and you can like get everything you want from food, from from from materials.
Invasive Plants and Their Benefits
00:06:42
Speaker
We live in such an abundance world and of course we can't ignore that there are a lot of problems too. A lot of people, ah even where we work here, um there are a lot of homeless people on the street. You can't ignore that there is trouble in paradise as well. um But to celebrate is to acknowledge all the good things um and in our profession.
00:07:01
Speaker
For example, a lot of people are angry at Japanese knot wheat, a very invasive plant in certain parts of the world. um And we always ask ourselves, well, let's say we would celebrate this plant. How would we look at it? And then we'll say, well, imagine if we would be an alien. We get stranded on this planet and you get Japanese knot wheat, which is like very edible. You can make beer out of it. You can use it as rhubarb.
00:07:26
Speaker
And then I'm like, wow, this is an endless food supply. oh And now no matter how much I molest this plant, it keeps coming back. It keeps coming back. It's like an ideal plant. You can't eat enough of it. And it keeps coming back. It's like free food forever. And people are angry at that plant. Yeah, it's crazy, right? I call it plant racism. Exactly. We just talked about it before the interview that What was the title of this book? Can you help me out? It's something about the new wild and new wild by Fred Pierce. Nice. And it's about that invasive plants can actually save our planet. Yeah. So there's ah an amazing book. I recommend everybody to read new wild Fred Pierce, who actually went around the world and looked at the bad things that were happening because of invasive species, invasive plants. And he actually concludes that these are the plants that are going to save our planet. Oh, yeah. um Because they're high on photosynthesis. They're absorbing a lot of carbon dioxide. They're producing nonstop. they're yeah They're helping to restore the water so water cycle, restore the biotic pump. um and And of course, you don't have to look black at black on white. Sometimes it's good not to introduce some exotic species or invasive species as well. So be careful, yeah i know what you're doing. but Monitor it. But the thing is, what he discovered is that actually it's
00:08:46
Speaker
humans that first destroyed an ecosystem and it's then most of the time when the invasive species come. And it's not the fault of the invasive species, it's the fault of the humans that just destroyed an entire habitat and then yeah, who wants to come in a toxic environment? Strong guys, strong plants. and Yeah, the invasive plants are actually like getting rid of, they can break down all the bad chemicals in the soil.
00:09:12
Speaker
yeah So that's really amazing. Good topic. I think we could talk about it for hours, but definitely.
Influences from Family and Travel
00:09:18
Speaker
But let's go even a little bit back in time. I always like to ask people, or you in this case, how did all of this start? Like you grew up as a gardener, as a three-year-old, or how how did things evolve for you? Well, I think a lot of ah things actually um came together. So when I was a young kid, my mother always used to yeah work with me in the garden. She's not a gardener or something. She just loves gardening. um We did a lot of things together. I had my own little garden with vegetables. We dug a ah pond together. um And just that made me
00:09:57
Speaker
realize that even if you know nothing about it, you can do a lot. You can have the self-confidence to just go and plant a tree. A lot of our clients, for example, they come ah ah to to our company and say, oh, Louis, do you want to help me? um Doing this, this, this. And a lot of the time I say, sorry, but I hear that you know a lot about it. Go and do it yourself. yeah Here, I give you the empowerment. ah Don't pay us to do it. Pay money to buy the wrong plants and make mistakes. ah Use that money to make mistakes instead of paying us. and So that that helped a lot. ah my My aunt and my grandmothers are herbalists, so so they they know which plants are medicinal. And it's not that they like talk about it every day, but little by little, you know how it happens. This information reached me. It infiltrates. Yeah, it infiltrates. The seed was planted there. Exactly. and we We used Calandula, for example, mixed it with some so my oil, and then we made this ointment. And then you see, well, if you hurt yourself and you put this ointment on it, it's just olive oil with Calandula. It heals faster. Wow, as a small child, it's fantastic. And then, of course, a very big influence is my my my dad, who is an architect. He built schools here in Brussels.
00:11:09
Speaker
And as a young guy, I got away with my sister. i um i was ah yeah took a He took us along to go to the sides. And then he said, yeah, now you have to be quiet and just play together. ah here we get Here a cookie. And for instance, oh, we get a cookie. um And then we were like, OK, now be quiet. And Daddy was like,
00:11:32
Speaker
talking with the with the contractors, and then yeah just like sitting on his back while he was like drawing. and he he yeah You know how i think how fathers are. If they're passionate about something, they they like they forget you. yeah And they keep on talking about it. um For example, yeah yeah just keep on yeah giving us the information we didn't necessarily want to hear, but it came in anyway. So and I think that formless and all these things together,
00:12:02
Speaker
yeah That's incredible. From an early age, you saw like architecture design and and yeah building that pond, everything kind of started there. Yeah, exactly. And then, like for example, my father, he doesn't really care about nature. So that's the combination of architecture and the nature of my feminine side of the family, maybe. and Bringing it together, the product of that. Yeah, exactly. It's nice.
00:12:25
Speaker
And then later on in your life you had a big impact on, yeah I think you traveled to the US, got to like know about regenerative farming, started writing your book. yeah this Was that a pivotal moment or how did that influence you? A very pivotal moment was actually so when I was 16, 17, 18 years old, I really didn't like school anymore, I didn't find the motivation, I really thought it was stupid, of course.
00:12:49
Speaker
Now I realized the privilege I had of going to to school and I'm very grateful for it. I actually, I followed Latin, so it really helped me a lot but with learning all the plant names. um But um when I was 18 years old, I really wanted to be free. That was um my only goal. I saw a lot of people who like worked until they were 65, complaining their entire lives about their job.
00:13:11
Speaker
um And then finally they were retired and then two years later they died. And I was like, okay, I'm not going to make that mistake. And the ah I was like, okay. That's crazy, right? I had maybe a crazy or naive idea and I said, I want to take my retirement first. oh yeah I did the same actually. Wow. So that was traveling to the US and other countries in the world.
00:13:35
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So freedom was my only goal. um We didn't have a lot of money, so we did everything on the cheap. We bought a 30-year-old motorhome, which made living practically for free. The only thing we had to pay was food and gas, which in the United States at that time was pretty cheap and still is, ah compared to Europe. um And then we were um so driving around. we In the United States, we saw a lot of monocultures, which were like super bad. um I was already interested in organic food, so I was looking for it. I found it was super expensive in a lot of places, especially when you were on a tight budget. Made me realize very early on that if you don't have a lot of money, then it's not very reachable to to buy organic food. So that's what like my first alarm bell. I went down and I said, what's happening here? But then we were backpacking in Mexico.
00:14:26
Speaker
um And there I had a really big aha moment. That moment changed my life forever. I was staying with a a young couple who was living in ah in a party town in in Mexico, um in working as a money exchangers. They had this money exchange office.
00:14:43
Speaker
And they realized, what the hell are we doing here? ah How stupid, all the rules, regulations, the the party people, like so destructive for the planet. And they decided to go and live off-grids, become self-sufficient according to permaculture rules. And we were backpacking, hitchhiking a lot, we were couch surfing, sleeping on people's couches, um or beds sometimes. If you're look if we were lucky. And and there,
00:15:11
Speaker
my eyes opened because they were living self-sufficiently. They planted all the seeds in my head about permaculture. They showed us that it's perfectly possible to grow food yourself, to survive on it, um to build your own house. um They converted an old school bus into a house. and And then I was just like the the guy, um the the husband of of of of the couple,
00:15:38
Speaker
I just like kept on asking questions. I had my little notebook and I was like, okay, Masanubu Fukuoka, the once real revolution, ah Emilia Hazlep, a very ah famous French permaculturist. All the names I had to hear, ah Elaine Ingham, the soil scientist. And I was like, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, and then okay. How do you filter grey water? Okay, this is a nice sketch to do all out. And I was like, oh my God, for me that was paradise. And I said, well, if it's possible to live so much in harmony with nature, um I want to make my rest the rest of my life about it. um So that was a very pivotal moment.
00:16:14
Speaker
um Very funny, in Mexico it was 2012 when the world was going to end according to some people. And we were also at the ruins there with people in their white gowns, their dresses like rituals. The world didn't enter, not that I know of.
00:16:32
Speaker
But for me, an old world ended and a new world started. Amazing. What a coincidence. I think for many people, 2012 might have been a pivotal moment. and Maybe the Mayas were right after all. and then i just yeah I was just an obsessed person, just reading everything that I could about it, visiting projects.
00:16:52
Speaker
um then Keep we we kept on being retired for five years Living in different places as a house sitter taking care of people's properties ah we lived in a castle and between new vineyards and ski area the Alps and I saw a little lot of different climate zones where I also experimented with plants and we absorbed a lot yeah and then from that whole experience you went to a Start your own business. Yeah, or was there something in between it was like I'm gonna do this for people So that was my next pivotal moment ah One of the last travels we did and we didn't plan it to be our last travel and we were traveling for a couple of months in Morocco ah visiting the entire country and there I really had this big aha moment when I saw a project being developed by a French guy and And I was like super excited. And I also, very inquisitive, kept on asking questions. Oh, cool. Is he going to use solar panels to make it off-grid? I don't know. They're using generators. I said, OK. Oh, but they're probably going to use the gray water to plant their ah to to water their gardens.
00:18:04
Speaker
and No, you're just kind of went into the ocean. Literally. ah And the Blackwater, you're going to probably use compost toilets and... No, no, we're also just dumping it in the ocean.
Epiphany in Morocco
00:18:13
Speaker
And everything that I was like, oh my God, this could be such a good opportunity to have like a perfect ecological yeah project project. But he would just was in it for the money. And at the same time, I was also in the desert of Morocco.
00:18:29
Speaker
And I'm a forager, so i I learned how to survive in the wild by eating edible plants. um Not that I would like to do it. I'd rather prefer to go to a restaurant or to have a a good fruit at the friend's place, for example.
00:18:45
Speaker
um But I could survive if I wanted to. um But in the desert, for some reason, yeah I was actually pretty at an unease because there I really couldn't survive. The only thing that you could eat was sand, or maybe if you could steal a camel from somebody. That's very low protein.
00:19:05
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. um So for me that was really a scary moment because then I also heard that um used to be a very fertile area, used to be a food forest and there are still some remnants of it near Agadir. There are some old food forests left.
00:19:24
Speaker
And then I realized that we as humans are like turning everything into a desert. It's happening in Spain, where I lived in the south of France. It's happening there. it It is happening there. And then even yeah we kept on going back to Belgium from time to time for Christmas or for meeting our family.
00:19:41
Speaker
um And then we had this droughts in Belgium as well, um where yeah we always laugh because it rains too much, but even in that country, things are happening. And ah then I realized, well, okay, I have a chance now, or I'm going to keep on playing the vagabond and being nomadic and and just work if I need to and just live on dirt cheap.
00:20:04
Speaker
ah lifestyle lifestyle or I'm just going to do everything in my power to be the change. And then the moment I realized that, ah that I wanted to be the change.
00:20:15
Speaker
um I would help me in that that I didn't had the illusion that I had this retirement that I'm looking forward to because I already had it. To be honest, being retired for five years as a very young person ah can be hard. Because you sometimes you fall into a void oh yeah and you have the feeling of, what am I doing with my life? I, of course, did a lot of things, played a lot of music. We also made some films. um Interesting. I was in a very similar situation. How nice.
00:20:46
Speaker
um Or nicely, I don't know. well yeah You learned a lot from it. Yeah, I learned a lot from it, but at some point I was like, okay, am I just going to keep living like a nomad and kind of live, not have a huge impact on the environment? But then actually I became sick and then that was a pivotal moment to start really helping to restore the health of our planet. Your own health and the health of the planet. Yes, it came all together. Crazy, I didn't know that.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah, so but back to you, so how did you then became to start your business, the command cell list, and that was the first
Viral Campaign for Sustainable Lawns
00:21:20
Speaker
business you started? or Yeah, ah well the first business I started was like selling pancakes on the street when I was a kid or something. I had an egg business. I had 12 chickens and I was selling eggs. Nice.
00:21:33
Speaker
um Yeah, no, the first real business. But I actually didn't want it to start a business. I i actually wanted to be an activist, or I just kind of was an activist, I think from from major on. And then I started like, um I started the campaign by by grass campaign, it was like a huge campaign in Belgium to to inspire people to have less lawn and more food forests, more flowers, or just letting it letting it grow. And it was really a viral campaign. um We reached a lot of media outlets. um I sent a letter to the king to ask if he would like to change his lawn into something more biodiverse. And and that was ah that really went viral. I even even had articles in in royalty magazines. It was really funny. So we we touched a lot of people, even people that... People are ready for that change.
00:22:23
Speaker
it It shows that people are ready for yeah change yeah like touch the the right string or something something and then it exploded. and then Then I i had a a very interesting conversation with a politician um and I asked,
00:22:38
Speaker
um Yeah, um I had like this entire list of things that I wanted to change. yeah And then i I said, yeah, to the politician, well, you're a politician, you have to do these things to save the planet. And I said, well, louis we I'm gonna tell you something, we politicians, we actually don't do things. He said, we look at what the people are doing.
00:23:00
Speaker
And if we see that people are doing things that work, we are going to support that people, those those people. So I had this entire misconception in my mind that I thought, well, politicians, they think of the big ideas and and and help the people and help the people. But no, they actually like, look at what's going on.
00:23:18
Speaker
Or that's what's what he told me, look it's what's going on. And then they're gonna like enhance and enhance it or push it down sometimes too probably. um So that changed my entire conception of it. And then I realized that just screaming in the streets to ask for better agriculture, better climate, better whatever.
00:23:36
Speaker
It's good. We need to make it ah more known. I also was in some... ah Yeah, there's some value to it at the end of the day. But at the end of the day, you're you're not super constructive, although we wouldn't be here today without them. So I'm sort of i'm very grateful. And I also participated in some rallies. But then I quickly realized that if you want to make an impact, you just have to do it yourself. And you have to add value, you have to um help people achieve it and and not by talking about the bad things, but by talking about the good things. And for me, its I quickly realized that one of the things that that I see as the biggest
00:24:17
Speaker
Drivering changes the connection between humans and nature. um And a lot of people just go into nature and they say, well, it's green, green, green, green, green, boring. They do something else. But the moment you take them in nature and say, oh, this leaf is edible. Did you know nettles are actually edible? Nettles actually produce more proteins per hectare than soybeans.
00:24:40
Speaker
Wow, really? Melted reliefs, also edible. Also more proteins per hectare than soybeans. Oh, cool. um Did you know that this plan is edible? ah No, really? and And by having these people really like interact with it, taste it and taste it something magic. Have people taste something and something changes in their minds.
00:25:00
Speaker
This podcast is brought to you by the Garden of Your Dreams Masterclass. Are you struggling with finding the right tools and tricks for your garden? Are you lacking the confidence to be a self-sufficient gardener? Do you sometimes get overwhelmed by the lack of knowledge and time you have to actually do gardening? Then the Garden of Your Dreams Masterclass is for you.
00:25:23
Speaker
So by doing this, yeah I quickly started very small with my little bag that I went to clients as a consultant um to consult on on certain um little gardens. I was actually studying again because at 18 years old i I stopped my school and then when I came back to Belgium I said, okay, I learned so much now but I also want this scientific background.
00:25:47
Speaker
So I went for a bachelor's degree in science. And um and then yeah just while I was like studying as a working student, I started my company, which is called like a student company. like You don't pay an idea as much taxes as an as a normal person. So that's a nice first start for a business. And then little by little, I grew into a landscape architecture company going from small gardens. And today, we're designing private islands, hotels,
00:26:16
Speaker
high-end hotels, resorts, bed-and-breakfasts, agriculture, um everything that actually brings together people with nature um and with three missions still regenerate, inspire, celebrate. so and watch Yeah, that's very impressive. And I really like, I think we have we really share this idea of that we can at least sustain this blood planet in the best case and that's where we're actually aiming for completely regenerate and make it even better and the idea of like leaving it better as we found it so that's incredible now what do you see as the biggest challenges within let's call it the landscape design or or agriculture industry what do you think are like the top three
00:27:06
Speaker
biggest challenges to go from A, which is today where we see all the big problems, to B, where it's like paradise, every food is accessible, it's healthy, it's everybody's living healthy. like how What do you see ah are the biggest challenges on that road that we're already traveling? Yeah, I love the question.
00:27:26
Speaker
and Yesterday, i was I was given a keynote for ah one of the biggest food distributors in Belgium and even worldwide.
Community Norms and Environmental Practices
00:27:35
Speaker
and um I asked the question, imagine you would be an alien ah or a human and you would go into a planet and there are no rules. You just have to start from scratch. How would you build it? That's actually the way... That's a cool exercise.
00:27:50
Speaker
Yeah, and it was very, very cool. They would say, well, I would have to control the weather. I have no diseases, no this, no that, no that. And then I said, well, actually, all the things that they said during the presentation, I said, well, it's perfectly possible. And it is possible if you look at it with a clean slate, we tend to hold too much to the past um in in a bad way. You have to keep on looking to the past as well because otherwise you get that we like have these beautiful historic old cities, we tear them down to build ugly modern houses. Don't do that too. So of course it's it's good to look at at the beauty we created in the past, but we have to let things go that don't help us. Like for example rules and regulations, that's a huge one. And it's very stupid, but in architecture business,
00:28:45
Speaker
the sometimes the biggest limiting factors are stupid rules that don't serve anybody that are just old rules that are still there. Complex, they don't apply to a modern world. Voila, exactly. and That and also that's not the biggest problem, but it's part of the problem. um And then just the mindset of people. um And we as humans are very much influenced by The group, we are social beings. And I'm going to maybe just give a very interesting example where they did a study. um It was the city of Perth in Australia, um where do they have a very, very big neighborhood, where they have like this very good manicured guards. Everything's perfect. They spray everything. They kill everything. that's that They don't want to. Grass is green, although it's in the desert. um And there is also a neighborhood where everything is ecological.
00:29:39
Speaker
have and ah They have native plants, they don't water too much. Everything is organic, natural, the ideal world for us. For other people, maybe the manicured lawns is ideal. It's not very sustainable or regenerative. And they did a sociological study. Why is it?
00:30:00
Speaker
that one community is doing the opposite of the other one, and what they also saw is that if people go from the regenerative community to the degenerative community, sorry to call it that, but you are degenerating the world, so it's a degenerative community, um they actually become like them.
00:30:17
Speaker
vice versa, if you take a degenerative community member, put it in a regenerative ah community, they become to to do it as well. So how is that possible? And it's very, yeah, maybe very interesting on a psychological level that we we're like a herd animal. Exactly. And that is that that It's just that we want to belong in a group. We just feel so much, the urge so much to be part of something, to be loved. And it's natural. I have the same. I also want to be loved and be part of something bigger. um and and And people go to great lengths to to do that. And sometimes they let aside their principles and start eating meat again to be included in a family of meat eaters, to say something stupid like that. ah so So the moral of the story is,
00:31:06
Speaker
If people think that the new norm is less lawns and more other things, then everybody everybody will follow. Oh yeah, um like from your movement nowadays in Belgium, everybody's like, my may needs is like, don't mow may, everybody knows it now. And they're actually doing it. So it's something that started. Yeah. And then then everybody thinks it's the norm now.
00:31:30
Speaker
one campaign leads to the other. So actually change can happen very fast if like there will only be a couple of people that start standing up yeah to make change but once I think there's like 10% 20% rule as and when 10 to 20% start doing something different and it works boom all of a sudden everybody will follow because it's shown to be better. That's a big point that we want to reach and so I think that's a call to everybody listening to this podcast or to everybody in general. that yeah We just have to yeah shout it from the rooftops. Hey, guys, this is the new norm. And don't say, well, the new norm is to buy a bigger pullover and we have to go back to the caves. No, we're going to go to a fantastic paradise where there's even more abundance. um But we're not going to spray poison on our food anymore. No, exactly. Like the most absurd thing people do, have it still. um But that's incredible to see that yeah change can happen fast and then it's definitely possible to live in a world where everything is kind of in harmony yeah and it's happening because the other system, the industrial complex system is falling apart with
00:32:44
Speaker
climate change becoming more dominant it's like the old system doesn't work so I'm also very optimistic to see a fast movement so I think we both of us are in one of the most upcoming trendy businesses because like there's no doubt that it will go into that direction I feel like even though it might still feel like not much is happening but I'm very hopeful about that.
00:33:07
Speaker
Yeah, i'm glad ah I'm glad to hear other optimistic people. And that's the thing, it's good to be optimistic, but we have we're gonna have to work freaking hard to get there. So it's like these both things, it's not like, oh, we're optimistic, let's just watch Netflix all day and drink Coca-Cola. ah have to get to work. It's like be optimistic, but do the dang work. Exactly. yeah And then the community aspect is so important, right? If people are listening, try and connect with other like-minded people. That's why um like permaculture is a great way to start. I'm not sure if it's like the solution, but it's definitely a good way to start and to connect with people. and
00:33:47
Speaker
I have a bunch of friends, they're living completely off-grid and they they live a happy life. I think there's a lot to be learned from that, so try and identify yourself with with a group of people that that think in the same way is a big one. and know and And that's an interesting thing about Permacoach, it's just something very accessible for people to get started with. yeah Most of the information is for free, and actually. you can You can take courses and pay quite a bit for it, or yeah Google and you find everything.
00:34:14
Speaker
That's a nice thing about the internet. and and And the thing is that, for example, it's good for on a home scale, but if you have thousand hectares of land, then permaculture, the same principles might still apply, but then you quickly go to agroecological farming or regenerative farming, which is like the bigger brother of permaculture. yeah That's a good way of saying that. I never thought about that.
00:34:36
Speaker
It's always how I have seen it. So now even more like we kind of talked about on the broader scale what the problems are. It's kind of like we all watched the movie of Al Gore, yeah the inconvenient truth. We passed that point where we'd like dooms thinking is over. We're actually looking ahead into the future. yeah But still, like we touched on the most the biggest challenges on a broader scale. What do you see as the biggest challenges within your personal business with the comments list or or some of the other business that you're working on?
Balancing Business and Food Security
00:35:12
Speaker
um
00:35:15
Speaker
Well, the biggest challenge I actually see, and that's a challenge that overrules everything. It's just, if you're not going to have food in 25 years, then we're all going to die. like Of course, running a business has a lot of challenges. it's It's working together with people. We need to be aligned. We need to make sure that everybody is happy within within the business.
00:35:38
Speaker
um You have to make sure that's that that's ah it's a healthy balance between income and investments you make, um client relationships, all of these things. Of course, it's challenging and and and the more you do it, the better you get at it. And that's always like a season go can can go up and down, but but really to be honest,
00:36:01
Speaker
all these things compare with if you don't not gonna have food in the next 25 years then yeah it's gonna be so trivial oh I wish I wish I was back in the time where I had to worry about ah ah somebody I was working with that was a I don't know complaining or something that I wish that that was the problem no yeah that's crazy also sometimes I can get honestly a little bit frustrated about that there's a whole business or industry that's talking about how to optimize your business coaching like I'm i'm ah actually also a big fan of it because it's helping me of course but at the same time we're also like all of that work is like
00:36:39
Speaker
It's like rub is to the waist if we don't solve the bigger scale of things of like, okay, let's try and not try, let's keep this planet livable. Because as a matter of fact, I'm not the one that wants to live on Mars. It's very cold there. and you're going to have to live in like a pot, maybe have a few house plants and look outside like storms and ice cold. I'm going to have a nice view but it's going to be boring. up It's going to be really boring because there's no waves. I love surfing. like I wouldn't want to live there. I'd be the last one leaving. Let's put it that way.
00:37:10
Speaker
but yeah i think that whole movement is is amazing. So for you the biggest challenge you see is is that, but even is there some specifics other than the regular um challenges as as a business owner or like specific for our industry?
00:37:27
Speaker
Well, I think it's important that, and and that's just coming from a very personal perspective, that you have to be more than a business owner, you have to be an activist. um be You can call it an activist entrepreneur. You have to, you you really need to change things. Stick to your values. Stick to your values. And of course, running a business is great. I would recommend it to everybody. It's the biggest and coaching you'll ever have, the biggest spiritual growth you'll ever have.
00:37:55
Speaker
um And you get so much pleasure if if clients are happy. It's one of them the happiest moments when a client says, wow, such a beautiful garden or or island you've created. And that gives so much positive energy. um And that's great, but yo yeah we all have to really be part, be co-creator of the change. And it's funny that you say ah the movie of Al Gore, Inconvenient Truth,
00:38:22
Speaker
i' I've met a lot of people that changed their lives because of it.
Inspiration from Films and Documentaries
00:38:25
Speaker
um But what we see now is more and more movies are coming out now that also show the the positive positive things and also the solutions. oh yeah Don't ignore the problems, but so solution for example, Kiss the Ground, yes fantastic movie, also great people that made that movie.
00:38:41
Speaker
um ah that show how regenerative farming can really save the world. And that's also because I've met so many people that ah that changed their lives after watching a documentary. That is hopeful. yeah Yeah, exactly. I'm also in the business of wanting to change people's lives. You made movies yourself that showed the benefits of it.
00:39:02
Speaker
Exactly. So that's actually the reason why I said, okay, but if so many people change their lives by seeing movies, so I'm going to make movies. So we're now making Eat More Trees documentary. And it's a documentary, but it's also a movement. um And the biggest main theme, and no matter if you just look at documentary or just at life, it is the connection between humans and nature. We are living in a society where we think that nature and humanity are separate. ah We use hand shells every five minutes after we've touched something that might be dirty. um We use all kind of medication to kill everything. We use sprays in our house to kill everything. But once you realize, and that was also a big aha moment for me,
00:39:49
Speaker
I discovered that when I was writing my first book, um is that we as humans have more non-human cells in our bodies than human cells. so yeah And these are the little creatures that actually keep us healthy. These are bacteria living in our guts. Yeah, that's incredible. Just to stress that for the listeners, our body weight our personal body weight in our own cells is less than the amount of microorganisms, right? Yeah. That's crazy, no?
00:40:16
Speaker
Yeah, so the moment you realize that... Well, when you're a healthy human, I would say, if you're full of antibiotics and all this stuff, it's probably not like that. You probably killed half of them. But once you realize that, then it changes your entire paradigm because your hands are full of beneficial microorganisms. And every time you clean it with ah so hand sanitizer, um that like, like it's a mostly in America, like I live there, so I know it. ah You had these big letters on it saying, well, it kills everything. I like and they're proud of it. I know. Yeah, kill everything. But they also killed good guys. ah And more and more, there is a change happening. People see that, well, we have to work together with nature because these little creatures in our guts, they keep us healthy, but also happy. There's something called as the gut-brain connection. yeah
00:41:09
Speaker
um that's and A lot of research has been done that shows that a lot of depressions and yeah almost one in four people is the depressed or has been depressed. yeah ah So that's one of the biggest epidemics, I believe. oh yeah Unhappiness. which I want to see people on the streets with big banners. We need more happiness. Really true. um Because it might be driving your Tesla and having the newest iPhone, but if you're unhappy, yeah then... What's the point? That's probably why forest bathing is so popular in Japan. yeah It's an actual thing. like You go in nature, you touch everything, you soak up all the microorganisms. so yeah And then eating, the obviously, the regenerative food, organic food is the main way of of achieving that. I think it's so beautiful to see. And for me, once like I started to realize that like I went into this industry because, OK, I want to help.
00:42:03
Speaker
save the planet, let's call it. It sounds quite heavy, but okay, not we're doing it. good When you realize that that when you do that, there's so much other benefits like personal health, community building, like there's so much bonuses yeah that come with helping our environment. So much free stuff, and there's even more. yeah So that's that's nice to hear.
00:42:24
Speaker
Yeah, and once you realize that that we are nature literally with with our our cells that are mostly non-human, then you realize then, well, every time I i use hand spray or if I use fungicides on my food, well, the fungicides will kill the fungi that is keeping me healthy.
00:42:42
Speaker
other bacteria sites, getting the bacteria that actually fill the holes in our guts. Our guts are actually filled with little holes and these bacteria actually, yeah, they make sure that no bad things pass these holes, they protect it.
00:42:57
Speaker
And if they're gone, then you have leaks in your gut. And you have leaky gut, for example. A lot of chronic diseases actually originate in your gut. So once you... I just heard from from a doctor that people that have a and bad breath, when their breath is smelly, it actually means that they're having a leaky gut. Ah, really? So that just to put it on the side. Next time I'm going to give them a copy of my book if I see that. If I'm like, oh, I grew up here, read this. That's a good one.
00:43:25
Speaker
I didn't know that, okay, and now, okay, but makes a lot of
00:43:33
Speaker
I think you're good. yeah um yeah so and and and And that's the big message um that we have to work together with nature. And and also trees play a very big role and in regeneration.
Advocating for Food Trees
00:43:46
Speaker
And a lot of countries in the world want to plant trees, but they don't succeed because they get in a fight with with farmers. And trees are actually now the cause of fery a lot of conflicts. oh yeah um and I've been to the Amazon rainforest um where I talked to an indigenous indigenous leader ah where I saw vast areas cut down, vast areas that were still pristine. It was one of the most humbling experiences in my life to see so much biodiversity, things we will never comprehend with our excel mindset. um and And there I talked with them
00:44:24
Speaker
I mean, Professor Carlos Nobre, a Nobel Prize winner, um and he said, well, um we're almost reaching the tipping point. Now 17%, 18% is cut down. If you reach 20%, 25%, it will collapse the entire Amazon rainforest, and it will become a savanna. And that will be like this card house where one part is destroyed, and then all the rest in the world will follow. So then we are basically screwed, almost there.
00:44:50
Speaker
um But the good news um is that we have to plant trees. We can't plant trees because it's agricultural land, but we can plant food trees. And for me, that was also one of the biggest aha moments when I learned that um if you plant food trees, they have the same beneficial effects. One in every two drops of rain that falls on this plant is created by trees. So we have to plant trees to create more rain, we have to to have this biotic pump having a small water cycle yeah that that that creates this rain, creates a good climate. Climate is much more than CO2. It's about having a ah
00:45:32
Speaker
Healthy water balance the biggest greenhouse gas is actually not co2 but water vapor something that's Rarely spoken about but how do you control water vapor with vegetation? um So actually has a bigger impact on our climates than than carbon um and and so I always joke or I actually mean it that a Tree a food tree should receive the Nobel Prize of Peace because it brings together climate farmers, consumers, and nature people. So it brings harmony between everybody. And if we would focus less on planting forests, but more ah focus more on planting trees, we would be planting so much more trees.
00:46:18
Speaker
Edible trees, yeah. um And I'm not against natural forests. I want as much natural forests as possible, of course. But we have to be fast. Like I said, we only have 25 years. So we have to focus on these edible trees, nuts, leaves, like I say, mulberry leaves, more proteins per hectare than soy. and They regenerate the land.
00:46:40
Speaker
and then Yeah, that's that's I find very hopeful. And to cool down a planet with two degrees Celsius, you only need 550 million hectares of trees. That's doubling the Amazon rainforest, and then we cool down a planet with two degrees Celsius. And we're not even calculating carbon. We're just looking at the cooling effect of trees.
00:47:00
Speaker
so That's incredible. It's very attainable. yeah and This is a very interesting perspective to look at edible trees in that sense because it's true and in, let's say, combating climate change paradigm. It's all about, okay, let's stick a branch in there.
00:47:16
Speaker
and the in the soil and hope it grows. yeah And then we can carbon offset it and get financial rewards for it. yeah it's There's some, definitely some value to it, but if we can focus on edible trees and that's amazing because now also I think you know what some research is showing that the Amazon rainforest was actually to a certain degree man-made and most of the plants were planted by by the indigenous people and they were mostly edible.
00:47:45
Speaker
It's a 12,000-year-old food forest. Yes, that's incredible. and We have to preserve that and again enhance it. And again, that's that's what I love so much about Amazon Rainforest is that nature people say, well, you can't have nature if you farm in nature.
00:48:00
Speaker
And then farming, people say, well, you can't have good farming if you have nature in farming. And then I say, let's have a look around the rainforest. It's a 12,000-year-old ecosystem. Perfect. The best nature in the world. so Every ecologist ecologist agrees that it's the greatest nature you can imagine. It produces tons of food. And then yeah and then you realize, oh, but it's actually a farming system. No, no, it's a natural system. No, it's a farming system. Oh, no.
00:48:25
Speaker
It's both. It's both. It's not the black and white thing, right? Yeah, exactly. so But then, of course, then the critics say, yeah, but you you can never fill the Walmart with the Amazon rainforest because it's not scalable, blah, blah, blah. And of course, they're right. so Then you go to other farmers that say, well, like Ernst Gutch, for example, um well, let's take the Amazon rainforest and just put it on rows and use tractors or maybe later even drones to go and manage and harvest everything.
00:48:53
Speaker
Yeah, change the whole farming machinery because most of the machinery is built to but what Ernest she calls war farming. I love that term because it actually comes from the industry or the war time that they've used all the products after the world wars. They refurbished tanks and into tractors. And all the toxic gases and all the like things they couldn't use anymore for war. Who can we sell it to? We could sell it to farmers. That's actually happened. So it's crazy. yeah So he's referring to peace farming. so I think that's amazing. I've never heard that one. Peace firing. yeah so yeah He's also at peace. so yeah yeah So I think, Louis, we could even continue this conversation for a whole day. Probably. But we're going to have to start wrapping up. We still have some time. But I want to ask you this question. What are you most hopeful or excited about for both your personal life and your business in the next, let's say, in the next year? Yeah.
00:49:50
Speaker
um well i first i thought but at First, I thought I was in the business of spreading information to change people and information via plans we make, building plans for gardens or information by writing books, giving keynotes, making documentaries. um I also give ah courses um about food forestry or to farmers to become regenerative. That's what the Food Forests Institute, right?
00:50:16
Speaker
Yeah, or with a or we also did some trainings for 20 farmers who had a total of around 1000 hectares to go from conservative to conventional to regenerative farming. um And the more we've been doing giving these trainings, talking with clients, giving keynotes, I actually realized that we're not in the information business at all. We are in the empowerment business. We're in the personal growth business. And it's very funny because ah Sometimes I'm like, oh, all this personal growth bullshit. It's so much wishy-washy things. And just people like thinking too much or meditating too much and not doing enough action. this um But now I realize that that's actually a huge part of it. And for example, the the week courses we give. um
00:51:05
Speaker
of I more and more see it as a week of transformation of empowerment that people go away from this week. okay They have gained a lot of new information, but they've got the self-confidence now to be part of it of the change. Confidence to take action because and support. There are so many people that have so much potential um and because of a block ah personal blockage because of their have an imposter syndrome because they're afraid to fail because it's so slightly strange to do certain things they just don't do it and that's in my opinion the biggest challenge that's out there if everybody would today just follow their bliss
00:51:53
Speaker
just follow their calling, maybe first find out what your calling is because it takes some time. But if we would do that next year, all problems will be solved. If we would live up to our full potential as a human being, and it doesn't have to be much, everybody just even would do it a little bit, there will be no problems.
00:52:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's incredible. I love that perspective because even in my own business, I started to teach people how to design their own garden, how to do everything in the online course. And I also realized you can actually find all of the information online. Most of my work in helping people to succeed is like cheering them on, supporting them and nurturing them. And even it's becoming like the information economy, which is pretty much getting eradicated by AI yeah because you can ask anything information related to AI, build me a business plan, build me this to that. yeah So like it's all covered and when you're becoming yeah it's becoming very cheap to get information with AI and very fast. So then it's like, okay, what are we going to do? And it's about supporting because ah robots and AI systems don't have that human connection.
00:53:09
Speaker
Let's put it yet and see what happens. But I think it will be very hard for AI and robots to cheer on people and support them because it's a real human thing. And even if they would be able to support it, if it would help us to become our full self and reach our full potential, why not? Exactly. But right now, we're not there yet. Yes.
00:53:34
Speaker
I agree. Wow, that's a beautiful insight to start wrapping up the interview here. So it's all about, not about information, but about support and cheering people on and supporting them and and achieving their goals, empowering them. I love that the empowerment business we are now in.
00:53:52
Speaker
and So yeah, how just to wrap up, how can people best reach out to you, work with you, if they feel they want to start gardening, farming, or they want your amazing support, how can they best ah find you? ah Well, just Google me and my name is difficult to to say in English, so if you go to lubydj.com and DJ like the real DJ. dejy Are you a DJ now as well?
00:54:15
Speaker
That's DJger. I like Jagermeister. But it's just louiedj.com. There you find all my projects, keynotes I give, contact details, and links to all the projects that I'm working on. Amazing. That's really cool. So it's very simple. We'll put that even in the show notes. And then ah we're very excited to see you DJing into the next year. Well, ah once I met a permaculturist, and he said,
00:54:44
Speaker
Well, we, the permaculturists, or we the regenerators, we are the new DJs. We're orchestrating nature, and you're a composer of nature, so that's amazing. Alright, Louis, thank you very much for being on the show. Thank you, Matthew, for being such a great host. Yes, perfect.