Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
As Dusk Falls (Ft. Casting Views)
332 Plays1 year ago
In this episode, Satsunami is joined by Dan from the Casting Views podcast to discuss the indie game As Dusk Falls as well as its narrative brilliance. But can this game survive alone on its story? Only one way to find out!
Patrons:
- Battle Toaster
- Sonia
Use my special link zen.ai/chatsunami and use chatsunami to save 30% off your first three months of Zencastr professional. #madeonzencastr
Check out more episodes here!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Collaboration Discussion
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. My name's Chatsunami and joining me for this, well, it's not quite a dark episode, it's more of a dusky episode. Joining me today is none other than the fantastic Dan from Casting Views. Dan, welcome to Chatsunami. Hello, hello, thank you. I like the intro. I like it. Oh, thank you.
00:00:42
Speaker
But sorry, it's great to be on. Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to coming on to your show. Honestly, it has been an episode in the making, hasn't it? We've been talking about this for a while, saying, oh yeah, we should do more co-abs. In fact, I can't remember when it was. It must have been a good year or two ago when I came onto your show. And we said that at the very end, I'm sure, that, oh, we should do more co-abs and things. And it wasn't just that, oh yeah, sure, we'll do it. Then we never did it.
00:01:09
Speaker
It's, I think you were one of our first guests, sorry, I was just, you were one of our first guests and then I've been meaning to get a second episode work with you, but then we were talking about this and I think we both thought we'd arranged it, but then we realised we hadn't, didn't we?
Balancing Busy Schedules and Gaming Passions
00:01:22
Speaker
Oh yeah. It's always the case though, because I had someone the other day messaging me and they'd said, oh do you want to do a co-op and everything and waiting space to do it? And I was like, oh yeah sure, you know, I'm available this time, that time and then all of a sudden I got a message out of the blue from the same person saying,
00:01:39
Speaker
Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry. I didn't realise I hadn't replied and everything. It's been really busy. And that's the thing, isn't it? I mean, it's just life. That's the sentence. It's just life. Yeah, that's life as the song goes. But of course, today we are indeed talking about a game that really you and I were discussing quite a bit when we were
Exploring 'As Dusk Falls' and Indie Game Appeal
00:01:59
Speaker
both playing it. That of course being As Dusk Falls, which is an indie experience.
00:02:04
Speaker
Absolutely yeah I remember talking to you and I know we'll get into it and I remember kind of frantically messaging you as I have been and I seem to do all the time now this game this is my favorite game you need to play it and it always seems to be poor you you've probably got about a list of 30 tweets queued up Dan's playing this Dan's playing this but yeah as soon as I started playing I thought you had to do this I wanted to hear you talk about this on your show the fact that I'm on to do it is even better but yeah as soon as I played it I thought this is a brilliant chat tsunami episode
00:02:32
Speaker
Oh no, absolutely. And I have to admit, it probably came at the perfect time because the time that you actually recommended this was probably about the same time that I was falling down a indie rabbit hole in gaming.
00:02:48
Speaker
where I was playing other games like What Remains of Edith Finch, Telling Lies, To the Moon, very story-based games. And I don't know whether it's just in my, and I'm going to say old age, but I've only just turned 30 last year. I'm saying that. I've just climbed over. I'm ancient then. I'm ancient then.
00:03:11
Speaker
I know, honestly, see when I hear gamers say, oh, I'm so old, does anyone remember this retro gem and it's like from the Wii or Xbox C60 and I'm like, get away, just get away. That's not a retro, but yeah, I was really into, and this still
00:03:27
Speaker
You know, I love games that have a very heavy emphasis on narrative. For example, last week I talked to Jess from Opinionated Lushes about Firewatch. And again, that's another game where basically you just walk from point A to point B and the story kind of unravels. But for this one that's a bit different, it feels almost like a visual novel. And I hate to call it that.
00:03:52
Speaker
But, you know, when you think of visual novels, you think of those very peculiar anime games, you know, where it's like you click the option and it's like, well, you fall with love, won't you? But as this is far from that, isn't it? Yeah, actually, that's a really good comparison because Firewatch I've played and I think Firewatch gives the impression that it's a game, but it's not.
00:04:13
Speaker
You know, I don't mean that in a harsh way, but it is ultimately, it's not like an Elder Scrolls or a Fallout. I would put it in a similar bracket as Dusk Falls in terms of it's got a path that it's going to take one. But yeah, we've recently done an episode on newspapers and I talked about the old photo stories used to get in magazines and newspapers and it's got that feel to it. It's almost like you're reading a paper like a visual story in a paper.
00:04:37
Speaker
Because one of the things I have to admit it reminded me of, and I don't know if you've seen this with other games, like I think it's Dead Space and Halo, especially the other two that come to mind, but they had these, I don't even know what you would call them, they were like extra Kingdom movies that were made to tie into the games.
00:04:55
Speaker
yeah they were like part of the expanded kind of lore where you got characters that were never featured in the game like for example you had one for Halo where a group of marines trying to escape this prison ship and there was like a elite trying to run away with them they were fighting against the flood but they had very much that animation style as Dusk Falls has where it is just basically a powerpoint presentation at times. It's always like you are going from panel to panel on a comic book
00:05:22
Speaker
but certain elements will be animated. So the characters' mouths don't speak as such, the lips don't move, but you might get a character like a cigarette and that's animated. Or it really threw me a couple of times when you see a car drive off because that would be animated. But the characters are moving in jarring action. That doesn't sound great, but it just works, doesn't it? Oh, absolutely. After Matt, I was quite taken aback.
00:05:45
Speaker
I suppose is the right term with the very beginning because I was like, really? Is this the animation style that they're married to? I was like, is my game broken? I genuinely didn't know. But the more you get into it, the more that doesn't matter because I've played loads of games, for example, To The Moon, which is quite possibly one of my favourite games of all time. That is a very narratively rich game.
00:06:09
Speaker
and throughout that it's made in RPG Maker, which if you've seen any of those games you'll know that it's just as very pixelated, it's pixel people as it were, but it's one of those stories that made me very emotional. I was like, oh my god, I can't believe how much I'm feeling over these, as I said, these clumps of pixels.
00:06:30
Speaker
And it was the same almost with As Dark Falls. Obviously there's a lot more in this game, but you know, it almost didn't matter because the story was just that good. And I know it's not a perfect story, we will definitely go into that.
Game Discovery and Influences on Choices
00:06:44
Speaker
But you know, before we go in and talk about this game as a whole, how did you actually hear about this game? Because this game is indeed relatively new. Well, as of recording this episode, it's a July 2022 release. So out of curiosity, how did you hear about this?
00:06:59
Speaker
I think I saw this originally, it must have been in a showcase in one of the E3 or whatever that's grounded now but you know each year you've got the E3 expo. I think I saw it advertised in that and like you I think I need to say right up front yeah I'm also massively into narrative games. I need a purpose for playing my game.
00:07:21
Speaker
other than just getting the high score in a multiplayer or something and so it already got my interest because it looked you know they showed a couple of really good scenes and i'll be honest again the art style really did jump out to me but then i probably didn't pay any attention to it and i think what then happened was got game pass and you know it's fantastic that this came out they went on game pass and i like to look at what's coming you know in the in the coming soon tab saw that played the trailer
00:07:47
Speaker
and kind of just download it. I actually stayed away from a lot of any Hypo reviews around it because I knew it would be a day one downloaded, day one place. So yeah, it's kind of a weird one in that a brief bit in E3 and looking at it through the Xbox, the Game Pass tab. Because I have to say I think
00:08:04
Speaker
I must have saw this floating about on Twitter and places like that, people talking about it and saying, oh it's a new indie game and I think it was just coming off the back of, as I said, other games like What Remains of Edith Finch, Coffee Talk, those kind of games and I was like,
00:08:20
Speaker
OK, I'll give it a go, you know, but it was kind of the game that I saw and I thought, all right, I'll add it to the backlog. And then, of course, you came to me and you were like, oh, it's a great game. It's a very good story. And I mean, if it's you praising this game, I was like, well, I have to play it because we've got great taste in the video games, so I can't not afford to play this. Thank you. I love how you're trying to make me sound all cool and nonchalant about it when I was probably going, you've got to play this. This is amazing. But yeah, no, I was nice and cool.
00:08:48
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I do need that push. See when someone recommends a game, as I said in my To The Moon episode. That game came out in 2011, and I must have got that game in the humble bundle in 2012, 2013, and I never played it until last year. Same with Spec Ops line. What remains of you to think, as I said, Papers, Please, you know, all these amazing games that I haven't played, and I'm
00:09:12
Speaker
slowly making my way through those games. So the fact that this came out in 2022 and I played it relatively soon after, I don't know if that's a testament to how good this game is or how good your negotiation skills are. How annoying I was by a Twitter. No, not at all. No, no. I needed that push. I needed that push. But, you know, same without any further ado, while we just jump in and talk about the goods, the bad and the dusky, I suppose,
00:09:51
Speaker
Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:10:02
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all big podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated. I'm Dan, I'm Lou, and together we are Casting Views.
00:10:31
Speaker
An uncle and nephew chatting on random topics. Some heavy, some fun, but we aim to amuse. Don't miss out, don't delay. Subscribe to Casting Views today. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Anchor and Good Pods.
00:10:55
Speaker
This episode is sponsored by Zenkaster. If you're a podcaster that records remotely like me, then you'll know how challenging it can be to create the podcast you've always wanted. That's where Zenkaster comes in. Before I met Zenkaster, I was put a naive podcaster, recording on low quality, one-track audio waves.
00:11:30
Speaker
I want you to have the same easy experience I do for all my podcasting and content needs. It's time to share your
Art Style and Narrative Impact in Games
00:11:41
Speaker
story.
00:11:41
Speaker
Well, I'm happy to just throw in a couple of things right off the bat if that's okay. We've mentioned it, but my number one point was the art style. I love it. I know some people have got an issue with it and I recently replayed it. Well, I started to replay it for this and then I'm going to say I got towards the last third and I managed to accidentally wipe out a chapter's progress and I got in a mood, so I didn't complete it.
00:12:03
Speaker
However, up to that point, I noticed my partner kept watching, you know, she would be sitting down, she kept watching it. And I've said in another episode that I know a sign of a good game in terms of story and how it looks as if she gets drawn into it because she's not a gamer. And I found her sort of watching it like it was a film or a program. Now the art style for me, brilliant. It's an odd thing in terms of like we said that it feels very stop motion. But I did see a line from the studio saying that basically every frame is hand painted and there are 15,000 frames or unique frames. So.
00:12:32
Speaker
It's a bit of work gone into it. That is crazy, hasn't it? Yeah. And I think it really shows because it's got this weird, they're almost realistic. So they are all actors and actresses, but they're not quite real, but are real. You know what I mean? They are based on their real look. And it's like, I think the early 2000s and probably now there was a trend in comic books for that almost lifelike artwork in some of the comic books. And I kind of think of it like that.
00:12:59
Speaker
Yeah, it doesn't feel as if, and this is going to sound really weird, but it doesn't seem as if these characters are created, if that makes sense? It's not like they drew them up on like a drawing board or a concept board and they're like, I don't know, this is Vince Walker and we've got to have like the beard, we've got to have the messy hair, you know? It does feel as if it's actual people behind it and no more is that evident and we will get onto it, but there's a particular character later on that
00:13:27
Speaker
is in the very critically acclaimed, may I say, heavy rain of course. And yeah, that took me completely out of it because I was like, sorry, before I go on, I just want to point out that as we go into this episode, we will be going into spoiler territory. So if you haven't played this game, go away and make a cup of tea, play through the game if you want, pause the episode and then feel free to come back. But
00:13:54
Speaker
If you don't really care about spoilers, still get your tea or coffee. But yeah, come back and listen. Yeah, when Scott Shelby popped up, I was like, what are you doing here? Oh my God! Yeah, that kind of took me out of it because he is just a spitting image, obviously, because they based it off the actor himself.
00:14:11
Speaker
Well I feel a lot of the actors are based on them and that is the weird thing and that's what I think draws you in on it. But yeah, I can imagine if you are a big PlayStation player or a bigger quantity fan. I guess I did play Heavy Rain but only briefly. So yeah, I can imagine that can take you out of that moment in time in the game.
00:14:30
Speaker
when you kind of say, oh, I know him, he's such and such. Oh no, absolutely. As I said before, this game is very narratively rich. It's a game that, and get used to that term because I'm going to be throwing that around quite a bit probably.
00:14:45
Speaker
throwing it around more than the Hope Brothers throw around the hostages. So the game of course is split into two parts, which I have to admit before I went into this, I had zero clue what the story was. I didn't read up on anything for this game. I really just had no idea what I was getting myself into. And I feel as if that is probably the best. Would you agree with that? Just go then blind for this game. Hands down, I absolutely agree. I think that will give you the best
00:15:14
Speaker
experience, at least in the first, well obviously the first playthrough, but I think it will give you the best experience. But of course, as I said, it's split into two distinct storylines. The first one being, in fact, is it right to say that it's split into books? Because it seems to be called book one is collision and book two is expansion.
00:15:35
Speaker
yeah it's almost like it's trying to be a novel slash almost like um serialized program isn't it you could easily imagine episode appearing instead of chapter i think or book sorry book yeah yeah the bbc would definite would be picking this up like on a sunday night or something yeah oh yeah that's prime sunday night viewing you i mean this is gonna age the episode purely but happy valley is over okay so bbc if you're listening you know you've got as dusk falls to fill the slot
00:16:05
Speaker
But would you agree that the first part of this game, and this is going to sound controversial, they don't want to start on a low note, but would you say that the first part of the game is probably the strongest part? Yeah, and this is where I have to remember back to when I was messaging you and I was
00:16:23
Speaker
giving you all the excitement to play it. I then got to the second part and I thought well if I say to you the second half's not as good then you're gonna have no emphasis or
Character Dynamics and Emotional Depth in 'As Dusk Falls'
00:16:31
Speaker
motivation to play it so I felt really bad as I let you play it but having just recently replayed it it's not as bad as I think first time I played it but I think because the first part is so strong
00:16:42
Speaker
And the first time you experience it, it is a great rush. The second half, what I would say, just doesn't live up to the first part. I think, or it can't compete as much because they're two very different animals. So you've got the first part, it's like an action thriller, obviously. I know it sounds funny to say that as a visual novel kind of book, but it is, it's an action thriller. Whereas the second half feels a lot more contemplative, doesn't it?
00:17:05
Speaker
So, for the first part of the game, you're right, it is action packed. It's about this family called the Walker family who are travelling to Missouri and they end up going through a place called Turok, Arizona. I don't know if that's a real place. It probably is. America's massive, but I'm Scottish, so I'm putting on the Turok app here. I'm like, no idea, probably. Arizona's a big place. That's all I know. It's just there. It's desert.
00:17:31
Speaker
So they end up getting into a car accident with this other car driven by the Hope brothers who will get onto them, don't you worry, we will get onto them. And of course they're forced to stay at a motel but unfortunately as fate would have it, they have an encounter with the Hope brothers again who come back from a relatively unsuccessful heist. They pull it off
00:17:55
Speaker
just not in the best way. So they end up in a hostage situation, they have to do the best to survive. It's very on the edge of your seat kind of stuff, isn't it? Yeah, and I think it's also good to say there are choices to be made. Some minus, some can have some big ramifications, which I'll mention later. But it's also mixed in with some quick time events. But yeah, I think you summed it up perfectly. I know I made though about the story because overall I said I do love it. It is a positive, I think, when I look back at it now.
00:18:25
Speaker
But it starts off almost like, it could almost be like a National Lampoon's vacation one because you've got this oddball family, haven't you? In the sense of they're arguing with the dad in the back and they're playing games and it almost feels like initially like it's going to be a comedy with the grumpy old granddad in the back.
00:18:41
Speaker
But then after a few minutes, some sinister undertone, well, sinister is probably a strong word, but you get some sinister undertones coming through, like about something with the main character's job and something with the dad. And it just doesn't take long before that snowball starts rolling and getting into, well, where the story ends up. I mean, it does get really dark, really fast.
00:19:00
Speaker
I have to say, you know, as we said, it starts with this family drama where, as you said, they're all arguing with one another, they're all irritable, they get to the motel, oh, they've got to get the car fixed, oh, I don't know how long I'm going to be here, you know, it's the whole back and forth as you expect.
00:19:16
Speaker
then of course it cuts to the Hope Brothers where you've got Tyler Dale and Jay who, the three of them really don't get along. They are very confrontational. Jay is the sensitive is probably the wrong word but you know he's not as assertive as the other two. He's quite empathetic, he's very thoughtful about what he does. I mean no more is that apparent man
00:19:40
Speaker
And this is something that I feel as if the game does perfectly is its characterisation of the main characters. So, for example, even when the whole brothers end up at the house of a corrupt sheriff, and they're basically going there to steal his money, but during the quote-unquote heist, Jay goes in with his brothers and he goes upstairs to see where the money is, and he comes across the wife of the sheriff, and she's a mobility scooter, she's got her
00:20:10
Speaker
I can't remember what's wrong with her, but our vocal cords have been taken out, hasn't it? Yeah, she's got like the Stonewall song where she can't speak, yeah.
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah, so she's a person who clearly is vulnerable. Anything could happen with these three guys in there and he is very empathetic. He tries to stop her, but he's not aggressive. He doesn't like, you know, push her to the floor. Because he also doesn't tell his brother downstairs that she's upstairs because he didn't want it, you know, it's a subtle thing, but he didn't want him to know.
00:20:40
Speaker
Yeah, he just walks the door and then says, oh, there's nothing here. Let's go to the office. And you're completely right. That is such a nice touch to say, oh, look at this guy who clearly you're supposed to see them as the antagonist until you get to the sheriff. We will get on to him, don't you worry. But then, of course, that leads them to run to the motel where they hold it up and they take hostages.
00:21:02
Speaker
Sorry, I just want to go back, sorry, to the heist itself though. There's two things in there. One was, yeah, actually, then the wife helping Jay. Doesn't she? She says, oh, the safe's down there behind the picture or something. She's so pissed off at her husband. But also, it's that scene that made me really hate the older ones because you've got Dale peeing in the lemonade, haven't you, of the sheriff, if you remember that scene. And I'm like, even though it's a game, I'm thinking, dude, come on.
00:21:25
Speaker
As I said, they are very confrontational, they're very aggressive, they smash up the place. There's not a lot of forward thinking. They obviously have a lookout in everything. They have the brother beating the horn, which I feel as if, and I know why obviously they have G in the house, but probably would have made more sense to have had G in there rather than
00:21:47
Speaker
the honour brother. Even still though, it's great characterisation and once you get the safe and the money and everything, you have to escape and we find out that the sheriff isn't exactly the nicest of people, but of course that leads us back to the motel where we've got carry-on walkers.
00:22:06
Speaker
who are, you know, they're just arguing with one another. It kind of puts a dampener on your holidays. That's safe to assume when three men come in with shotguns and they're like, yeah, give us your money. Oh, this was a heist. And you're like, oh, God, no. On your point about characterisation, again, you're right on it. I think this is what makes a game stand out above certain other genre as well, is that a lot of the characters I really did like, like Vince,
00:22:30
Speaker
I couldn't help but feel like I was going through that with him. I kind of really wanted to make sure I got him through that scene okay. The Hulk brothers, even though I disliked them in terms of the characters, they were played really well. Jay played it really well and I think that's what makes that first book or the first half of the game so exciting is because they were really well voice acted and yeah, they were kind of well portrayed on the screen.
00:22:54
Speaker
Yeah, it definitely felt like an audio drama, didn't it? Yeah, that's a good parallel, yeah. I honestly feel as if you just took the audio from this game and just put it into, I don't know, Spotify or Zinkaster, you would be able to just listen to this. You wouldn't really have to watch it. I mean, maybe you could get some descriptions about what's going on, but
00:23:16
Speaker
long and the short of it is, it is just done so well that you can follow along by just listening to what's going on with the cues and everything that they give. And what I do like as well, going back to the characters, Vince is, and this is going to sound weird, this is a phrase that I used in my review of Firewatch, but he seems like a very human character. He doesn't seem
00:23:39
Speaker
like a superhero or wrestling the guns out of their hands or a quick time event to punch them all out or anything. It takes very reasonable decisions for the most part. You're given the option to lie about where your daughter and wife are. You get the choice between stopping Joyce from antagonising the brothers versus stopping your dog from antagonising
00:24:04
Speaker
agonizing which I have to admit as a dog owner myself I was like no I'm sorry Joyce I'm saving the dog don't get me wrong in my playthrough none of them died but I was still like I'm keeping the dog safe he just feels like a husband and father who's trying to get his family through a very bad situation you know he's not like he said he's not master chief he's not some action hero you can almost feel him sort of whirring through all the things in his brain about what is the best decision what do I have to do to get my daughter and wife and dad out of this
00:24:32
Speaker
This is something that I was initially unsure of, where the story has this weird habit, at least in the first part of the game, it has this weird habit of jumping around quite a lot. You know, it flashes back and then it goes forward and then it's back and forward. And personally, I don't know how you feel about this, but I feel as if there's a kind of final line when you're implementing flashbacks. Because sometimes, like this game, it can be done really well when it just adds
00:24:59
Speaker
heaps onto the story because I was messaging you about the particular twist where we find out why Michel and Vince are agitated with one another. You think there's something going on there, but I don't know why. Of course, the reason being that Vince was fired from his job as an aircraft engineer because they blamed a technical fault on him and then Michel had had an affair and
00:25:24
Speaker
I just remember messaging you at the time, and I was like, oh, this Michelle's abandoned. She's that bad, that person. That broke my heart. And that's what I was going to say earlier. And I thought, wait, when you said about the characterisation, that scene, that broke my heart. That did, you know, because you just felt for Vince at that time. Because again, he's just a husband who's gone through a bad time trying to do the best for his family. And then that happens. That was emotionally devastating for me as well. I was just like, I can't believe that, you know, it's been dealt a horrible hand with.
00:25:54
Speaker
you know, everything that's going on, never mind the heist and the hold up that's going on in this game. But even before that, to have a wife who you have a strong relationship there and then all of a sudden it's like, oh by the way, I had to know. In fact, no, it isn't even
00:26:09
Speaker
Oh, hold on, I had enough air. He finds out because he accidentally reads her phone. He's like, oh, your phone's panging. Let me have a look. See who it is. They're waiting for the movers because they're moving home. So he thinks it's the movers. So he goes to look at it to not miss it. And then he accident. Yeah, he accidentally reads. I think it's from Bruce. Damn you, Bruce. Was it something about cupcakes or something? Yeah, he called it because he called a cupcake says something like, I'm going to miss your cupcake or miss your smile. Do you want to go for one last drink? And it kind of all kicks off from there.
00:26:38
Speaker
But in terms of the flashbacks, yeah, I agree with you. I think, again, the first half did it well. There are just one, one of my, I think, negatives though, is that there are certain, I think, they could have done without or more they could have put in. So whether it would come in a second game, I think there should have been more on what happened to him. You know, I think there could have been more on the incident. I think building up, because he was one of the best characters. And I think if I'm not out of line stepping forward, he's pretty much, and he is absent from the second half, isn't he? Pretty much, yeah.
00:27:06
Speaker
Yeah. And you've built up this great character, this great family unit to then just discard them. And there's that whole storyline with him. And in the first half, there's that scene with Joyce's son, Ash, where they go to Sam Shelby's hut. He points his hut in the photo.
00:27:22
Speaker
And I felt that didn't need to be in there. I know there's a ramification, there's a choice there about, you know, whether the police find a hut, but I didn't care for that kid. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but he had no real impact. They just brought him in for that moment. And so I think it's the choice of flashbacks that they did do and some of the ones that they probably could have done.
00:27:40
Speaker
No, yeah completely right. I feel as if the only reason they had that scene in there was so that later they could say, oh well if you chose to tell the sheriff at the time that this was his hideout then the police would search that house and you would have to run away and it would be another action scene which I liked in a way but I do agree. I feel as if
00:28:00
Speaker
There's a lot of characters that they put all their eggs into one basket for and then all of a sudden someone just takes the basket away and goes, okay, you've had enough eggs for this character. You're like, but I want to know more and you're completely right. The first half I was absolutely hooked.
00:28:16
Speaker
throughout the entire thing. I was like, how are the walkers going to get out of it? There's one point where Michelle gets shot and you have to decide whether or not you forgive her for the affair and everything, which again, she thought she was dying. But at the same time, I remember being at that scene and just being like, honey, this isn't the best time our daughter and my father's someone there. But can we discuss this later when you're at a hospital?
00:28:42
Speaker
but that means what they are but I was gonna say I'll go through after but there were some quite big differences in my playthrough so yeah absolutely I got Michelle shot in the first game but in the second game she was fine so there are some quite big differences that you know normally in choice driven games you think oh it's very minor but there were some quite big differences for me
00:29:00
Speaker
between the two. Because I mean you can actually get characters killed in this game and it does affect the rest of the story going forward. For example, there's a scene where, and apologies if I get his name wrong, but I think you go outside as Vince with Dale to confront the police, but you see like a sniper laser kind of
00:29:21
Speaker
train on you, or rather train and deal, and I think if I'm remembering correctly, because I had to look it up, but I think if you let him get shot, then you run inside again, and Tyler gets so angry that I think he shoots Joyce and
00:29:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I've got. I was really upset that. Yeah, because if you let him go or warn him, everyone kind of survives. I mean, Dale always ends up getting killed in the game, so you can't save him. But yeah, in the second playthrough, I let the police shoot him, thinking that's what I must have done in the first game. But yeah, it all then kicks off. And yeah, Tyler kills Joyce, which I found really gutting as well because she was a nice character too. I would say at least for the first half, there's not really a week.
00:30:02
Speaker
character you know each character kind of plays and sorry I say that the only one I would say I wasn't a big fan of was is it Sharon who's like the mother of the yeah yeah
00:30:14
Speaker
don't like her character. I'll go on to that later but her inclusion felt a bit weird. Yeah it was just it was just to almost bring in that head of the family dynamic wasn't it and then she has got a relationship with a couple of the other characters later on but again it just feels they didn't pad her character out. It's like I've said in some of my notes I've said I almost would have liked
00:30:36
Speaker
a bit more backstory on the halts but not so much just general stuff like some of the things they had to do to survive as a family because you might have then had a bit more sympathy for them and even further because when you see how basically that she was trying to keep the family together because the dad was a bit of a deadbeat you kind of get why they were doing anything for her i think if you'd have had more of that you might have warmed to her a bit more even though they are the villains
00:31:00
Speaker
piece, but which brings me on to I would want it to have more the Sheriff Dante. I wanted some of his backstory as well. I saw as a character, whilst he's probably the big villain, I thought he was brilliant. I loved him. Yeah, I totally agree. I feel as if and this might be a hot take in the As Dusk Falls fandom, but I think he is probably the most
00:31:23
Speaker
criminally underutilised out of all the characters, purely because it's set up that the Hope family are down on their luck, and as you said, they are Father Bear who's called. I just want to emphasise that in case people think I'm just randomly saying Bear. Scott Shelby Bear has a call. He has a crippling gambling addiction to the extent that there's a very horrible scene later on where he attempts to take his own life and he also tries to kill one of his debtors because
00:31:53
Speaker
Yeah, he's just in such a bad place that he's basically ruined the family. And again, there's more to it. I can't just simplify it and be like, oh, it's because he's a gambling addict. There's obviously a lot of mental issues that go behind that, which again, looks quite interesting the way that they approach that. So they characterise the whole family as being completely desperate and financially on rocky terms. So that's why they target the sheriff.
00:32:19
Speaker
and they do explain that the sheriff is corrupt, he's got all this money left over from dodgy deals and things like that. And that is interesting because you also see things like Aswick said at the very beginning of the episode that the wife is quite cold towards her husband, even though obviously she's got that condition and it seems as if he does look after her.
00:32:43
Speaker
but at the same time probably doesn't look after her well enough that they have anyone to care for her during the day. She just kind of goes about her business and everything and she's obviously isolated while her husband is out all day with all these dodgy feelings and things. That's the other thing about it. It all kicks off because they try to rob his house but that's not the problem is that Jay takes a book. He spots a book on birds or something. Birds of Arizona, doesn't he? But hidden in that is a black book
00:33:11
Speaker
with all Dante's dodgy dealings. So yeah, Dante, while he's a sheriff, and I think he does care for the people in there like Joyce and the kid, the escalation comes from the fact that he just wants that book back. So there's a huge shootout, there's a bus that drives through the front of the motel. It's purely because all he cares about is getting that book back.
00:33:29
Speaker
It's that kind of side of him that I really wanted to see more, that Wheeler dealing, conniving, scheming, how he got to where he is. Because again, like I said, the voice, the guy who plays him as well, it is just very watchable and listenable. And again, I think you said it criminally underrated, which is quite ironic for him being a sheriff, but it's spot on. He needed to be in it more. And I want DLC with his backstory.
00:33:52
Speaker
Yeah, because the sequel, or rather the second part of this game, definitely sets up for some kind of DLC. And I'm gonna be honest, I don't know if it's been confirmed that they're working a DLC, or maybe it's a sequel to the game, I don't know, because it feels like
00:34:13
Speaker
This is definitely a game that will require a lot of work to be put into. As you said before, with all the characters getting rendered and created and everything else, there's going to be a lot to put in the game. I have to admit, my jaw hit the floor, see at the very end where the motel goes on fire and there's the big standoff between Vince and
00:34:37
Speaker
the Hope brothers and I don't know how you tackled this one but for me personally I gave myself up as Vince to the Hope brothers and I said to them, oh take me, I'll be your hostage in order to let Zoe go because that is the kind of game this is. You're still playing as Vince but you're seeing it through his eyes, you're seeing it as, oh my god they've got my six year old girl here, they're gonna kill her or they're gonna kidnap her and it's like
00:35:03
Speaker
I don't want anything bad to happen to this child. You know, you want this family to escape with their lives. So I made, of course, the ultimate sacrifice and I gave myself up. But did you do that as well? I did in the second playthrough, but in the first, for whatever I felt like, because I wouldn't have said send a girl.
00:35:21
Speaker
But I think in the
Critique of the Game's Second Part
00:35:23
Speaker
first playthrough, for whatever reason, they did take Zoe. So yeah, it just shows again the difference. Because yeah, Vince can actually die in that scene if you go with him. He can actually be killed off in the game, which would... I'm so glad I never got to see that ending for him. Because that would have been me deleting that off the hard drive straight away. But yeah, I think how you've played it certain options beforehand, I think it does then force you down as one of two specific paths. Because yeah, I couldn't imagine him willingly letting them take
00:35:50
Speaker
the daughter, which I somehow managed to do in the first game. And I think that's what this game does. At least for the first part, I feel as if this is what the game does perfectly. It gives you stakes that you want to invest in. And I feel as if it gives you the perfect golden blocks about these characters in the first part. So, you know, you've got the Hope Brothers burning down the... well, not
00:36:12
Speaker
then burning it down, but fleeing the motel with their hostage of choice, as it were, the family more or less escaping with one or two exceptions, and you have this grand Thelma and Louise-esque, I suppose is the right term, chase scene with the police. It is, it's very grand and epic, and once you get away it then cuts to really just the second part. I don't know if this is where book two actually comes in,
00:36:39
Speaker
but this is where I feel as if the game started and I feel bad for Cygnus but started to kind of go downhill once the whole brothers escape and then they get to the forest and then they release the hostage. Did you feel as if from that point on that was the tipping point or do you feel as if it came later?
00:36:58
Speaker
i think that's it there's still quite a bit of a good game there where yeah well you can either choose to keep it or release the hostage and then is it i think it's tyler jay and the mother go to the cabin and there's a bit of a tent scene that plays out there because tyler only has got a motorbike for two people to go across the border and he wants to leave jay behind well that's what he's saying and that kicks off
00:37:22
Speaker
some further scenes but for me where it broke down was when the other characters come in so like Vanessa said Jay's love interest potentially now I actually liked her as a character and I think them together were great but they've thrown in new characters towards the end of the game where again I've not invested in them and to rush a story along because basically you're supposed to hate her father he's a controlling overbearing father to her she just wants to get away because there was a tragedy that befell her brother when he died
00:37:51
Speaker
And I'm looking at it the other way, that he's just the father who's trying to protect her from not having the same thing happen to her. And you're supposed to invest more in her. Even though I like the character, like I said, I like the character, that part of the story just felt rushed. And it's like, oh, here are characters you've got to care about them now. And the side bit, which you should probably say, is then it focuses on Zoe in the modern day. But again,
00:38:11
Speaker
we haven't seen enough about her how her life was affected and then it's just the bit with the granddad which i'll let you go on to after but just felt a bit too rushed too disjointed and other than jay jay was really the only ever present i know that sounds funny because zoe was in the start but she was like a tiny kid then and then later in the game she's like a young adult
00:38:31
Speaker
And yeah, it just kind of felt disjointed is the word for me. That's how I felt. I completely agree. I think that's probably the perfect word to describe this part of the story, because even though I said that that's probably the split for me where they escaped the police and everything,
00:38:48
Speaker
completely right. I still feel as if there is some kind of coherency there but then you've got the Romeo and Juliet style love story where Jay's lying about who he is to Vanessa and oh I'm a schoolmate or whatever and then the FBI get involved in everything and it feels maybe not a completely different story but it does feel a bit disconnected compared to what we had before
00:39:11
Speaker
You've got to believe that this girl, and she's a school age, just wants to go away with this. I think you can admit to her you're a criminal, criminal steal a car, go joyriding across to Canada all of a sudden, just like that. And part of that then, the thing that kind of made me cringe a little is they go to like a house party because she wants to try and get, I can't remember if it's like fake ID or something. And it just feels like it was to put stock
00:39:32
Speaker
images of cool hip kids at a party into a scene. Do you know what I mean? That's all it felt like to me and it's just when you see her in the house it seems like again she's got an elderly ill grandmother, it looks like the father's trying to take care of you know his mum and his daughter and then she just runs off with this convict or potential criminal. I completely forgot about that party scene.
00:39:52
Speaker
Yeah, very cringe. I think that just summarises the second part of this game that so much happens, but it's just it's not paced out very well. And then if I could say about one of the endings, depending on which you do. Again, I know it doesn't seem like it. I do like Vanessa and I like Jay and Vanessa, right? And you see them, depending on what you do, they escape, they make it to Canada. But then in a scene later where the adult Zoe comes to talk to Jay, you just say, yeah, we were together six years and she's gone.
00:40:19
Speaker
And it's like, so that character as well has been built up just like, you know, the family like Vince at the start, just like the Sheriff Dante. And now this Vanessa character you want to, you're supposed to invest and you try to invest in them, but then they're just thrown away in a one line conversation. Yeah, I was quite angry at that. I have to say, I was like, well, you're telling me that you jumped off a waterfall to flee from the FBI, the FBI and your overbearing father. And then all of a sudden, six years later, you went, nah, this isn't really for
00:40:49
Speaker
me. I'm just going to go home. We don't have Netflix out here. It was just a phase after all. I get it. Vanessa's supposed to be this rebellious teenager who goes to these parties and she does everything that her dad doesn't want her to do. I mean, there's some weird
00:41:08
Speaker
moments though where they're in Salt Lake City in Utah and they go to this hotel when they're together and then all of a sudden the dad shows up just randomly as if he's got like a tracker on there or something. I don't know if he does have a tracker on there but it's weird. It's a weird scene where you're like, why is he here? Is this to ramp up the stakes? Oh no, the dad's here. A quick bit of climbing in the window. It almost reminded me of this literally weird comparison but have you ever seen the naked gun films?
00:41:37
Speaker
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know the very first one when he sets the apartment on fire accidentally and he has to like climb out? You know, it was almost like that kind of absurdity when he has to climb away and you're like, really? To link back to one of your themed months, to me it feels like it was a T-1000 because he's this evil guy just determined on tracking her down wherever she goes. And it's like, that's what it almost felt to me like he's this, you know, this supernatural villain.
00:42:02
Speaker
that's come after her. But something before, because I'm going to completely forget, something about her and Vince. Why I didn't realise until I was looking some things up for this episode, is they're actually British. Really? Yeah, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. So again, that just goes into how well they played those parts. Again, I do think that it is just very haphazard, the second part, where again, the only reason G, and I feel like this is quite
00:42:25
Speaker
horrible moment where Jay reunites with his family. I feel as if this is the end of the first book where Jay eventually reunites with his mum and his left over brother because I think Dale, regardless of whether you let him get shot or not, he does still die in the crossfire and they are talking about leaving. They're just really horrible to them, to the extent that like, oh maybe we should just off him and things like that. You're like, what this
00:42:51
Speaker
There's something you might not remember if you played it because I didn't remember it and it came as a bit of a shock. So I don't know if either you have to do a specific option or I just forgotten, but it turns out he isn't actually their brother. He is I think Sharon's sister's son. And that's why they feel like there's this resentment. There's this big scene in the cabin short while into book two where he says, you know, something like you're not even our brother or she's not your mum or something like that. And she goes, you are your family by blood.
00:43:19
Speaker
you know and i raised you and yeah i think it's her sister's kid oh no you're right yeah which then makes it realise why he's the good egg supposedly of that family i truly remember feeling like it was very much a new standards moment you know like very much a so popular moment when you're expecting the dun dun
00:43:53
Speaker
DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN
00:43:57
Speaker
It just seems to kind of go... I would say Downhill. Downhill is probably too harsh a term for this game to be like, oh it's terrible. I think it's disappointing based on what the first half gave you. That's how I felt. It's very lackluster, it's very... just not great, I would say. Again, it's not bad by any means but compared to what we got before and then it feels as if all these ideas of, oh Jay's running away with Vanessa and everything and that is
00:44:26
Speaker
probably with the majority of Book 2 focuses on Jay's journey to try and escape with Vanessa. At the same time, we do have Zoe's interactions with her grandfather, which annoys me.
00:44:41
Speaker
to be honest, it really annoys me because there's a scene later on where the grandfather is like, oh, there's a reason why we stopped at two point in Arizona. It's because of blah, blah, blah. But then at the very end, there's like a very much a Sopranos moment where he just gets shot and it fades to black and I'm like, are you serious? Are you serious with us? And yeah, it's just there's no explanation for it. So that's why there is obviously, there's definitely more
00:45:09
Speaker
to the story but again whether that is going to be an expansion as a DLC or it's going to be another game, I don't know. As far as I know anyway, I could be very wrong so please feel free to correct me but I don't think they have announced any of this at all. I've not seen it. I've not seen it. But like I said, it only came out last year didn't it? So we've got a bit of time.
00:45:31
Speaker
But yeah, on that ending, yeah, I'd forgotten because they alluded to it earlier on. So also one part of this thing is the granddad had been estranged from Vince for many years, hadn't he? And then he says he's got a brain tumor, but that turns out to be a lie, doesn't it? If I remember right. And there is a scene early on when they stop in the motel that the guy that works there, I think his name's Paul, seems to recognize him. And then the dad sort of puts his head down and put the cap down and say, no, no, I've just got one of those faces or something. And it's like, yeah, if they've
00:45:58
Speaker
All they've then done is potentially killed him off at the end because you don't see that, you just see the gunshot and the guy running out. That needs to be explained because that probably would have been a great backstory to have had happen during it or maybe they are saving it for the sequel. I don't know how to feel about that to be honest.
00:46:14
Speaker
There's a lot of plot threads that either end really abruptly or they just kind of go nowhere. So, for example, there's a particular scene in I Think You and I got different scenes with this where you get to see what happens with the whole family as a whole, where they end up going and you see Sharon go into the arms of Paul, as you mentioned there. I got her arrested.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, see, I didn't, and it's not because I liked the character for the defense, your honour. I'm not a big fan of a character, but the only reason I let her go was because I thought that was going to lead into an extra chapter or something. You know that way when you get Make Your Own Choice games, there's always an extra chapter
00:46:57
Speaker
you make certain decisions and after I did that I was like oh I can't wait we're going to be getting chased by the police there's going to be a shootout or something there's going to be something exciting but it's like oh no they empty the offshore account and they just bug it off to Cuba I think and you're like okay
00:47:13
Speaker
I felt really disappointed with that. I was like, oh great, that's not the best. So yeah, I kind of wish I did just say, yeah, just the rest there because I don't like Sharon, but I don't like the sheriff either. So both of them, it was genuinely like a, who do I hate more?
00:47:29
Speaker
Do I hate the sheriff more? Do I hate Sharon more? That's the thing, that's why I really like the sheriff in a way that you really hate a really good villain. That was the thing, I'm not going to say I was rooting for him but that's why I was saying I wanted to see more of him because he had the potential to be just that villain that you really despise but did it so well. He's a great villain.
00:47:50
Speaker
It's just such a shame that his storyline, even though he is very central in the first story to the reason why he's so very cavalier about throwing buses into the motel and doing all he can to stop these Hope brothers before the FBI can come in and resolve the situation relatively peacefully. But
00:48:12
Speaker
Yeah, in the second story it's just like, oh yeah, Sharon and Paul run away and that's it, it's just end of story. You get like a resolution off screen, you don't get it on screen, you don't get to really see much of it, which is a shame. Again, because you're completely right, he's such a good villain but it's almost like in the second act they don't know what to do with these characters, because obviously they're focusing on Jay and his journey to quote-unquote redemption to escape to Canada. Again, I like
00:48:41
Speaker
the ideas that they were going for with Zoe. I do like the likes a strong word, but I do find it interesting that she has very much this PTSD attached to those events at night. Is it right in saying she becomes a swimmer?
00:48:57
Speaker
after that yeah because there's a theme at the start right at the start of the game and towards the end where she's trying to hold her breath underwater for as long as she can almost like i think that's supposed to be like her safe space almost like her quiet place but yeah she's in the swim team but the thing is for me and i'm not going to say that that wouldn't be traumatic as a child but again you kind of don't see a reason you don't kind of see what leads up to her having these problems and i'm not saying i wouldn't want to see
00:49:22
Speaker
someone go through torture but you know her I don't mean she would actually been tortured but I mean like the mental torture because in my game and I'm sure in your game the mother survived the father survived the granddad survived and again I know it was traumatic and in our games I'm sure the parents split up but you know it's like she's got this hatred for Jay which even in my game he did try to do the right thing by her I'd like to have seen a bit more about maybe her memories and how she got to the point where she can't let go of that
00:49:50
Speaker
it seems like a very heavy story beat, I would say. It's very complicated. Obviously, the whole concept of mental health is a complicated issue. So to kind of tack it on as a side plot almost, again, I'm not trying to minimise it, but it does feel as if at some points it is first and foremost you see her at the bottom of the pool and things, and it's the idea that while she's down there, you summed up
00:50:16
Speaker
perfectly. It's her safe space, the only space where she has complete control over herself, over her environment and things like that. Those are all interesting things, but it's kind of hard to focus on that. You've also got the Jane Vanessa storyline, you've got Paul and Sharon hitting the sheriff over the head. It's all these other things that get just
00:50:38
Speaker
the rule of that. At that point, I kind of feel more sorry for Jay than her almost because of his life and what he's gone through. I kind of feel more sympathy for him at the end. And again, I don't think that sounds heartless, but again, they made you care about the young Zoe. I hadn't seen enough of the older Zoe to understand why she was feeling the way she was, if that makes sense. Maybe I'm not making sense, but in my head I am.
00:51:01
Speaker
No, you're completely right. They don't really spend enough time with her. She was like a completely separate character almost. Oh no, absolutely. And I completely see your point. It does feel as if, although she has gone through this traumatic experience, and obviously I don't speak on your behalf, but I know that you and I wouldn't want to see a game where a six-year-old goes through this mental anguish or anything, but at the same time you're completely right. It feels as if they just throw her in and they're like, oh, here's Zoe and she's not happy with her life because of that.
00:51:31
Speaker
of end as she wants that sense of closure and obviously that'll depend on whether or not the mum dies or the dad dies or anything like that. No Vince could die but I think it would have been far better for him to have gone and confront Jay because you know his marriage, I know his marriage hadn't broken up because of that but you know they've gone through that, that was the deciding point especially if you said no or if they had kidnapped the daughter as part of it he might have had trauma from that or if his wife
00:51:57
Speaker
got shot. Those to me are more compelling reasons to have someone go back to confront him to almost say, I forgive you. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, there definitely could have been more work done there. And again, hindsight's a wonderful thing. It's easy for us to say like, oh, they should have done this or they should have done that. And I'm not saying by any means that this is a bad part of the game. I'm not saying that, oh, it's terrible. They shouldn't have done that. But
00:52:23
Speaker
definitely could have been more development done there. There definitely could have been more development between Zoe and Jay because I feel as if with Zoe she keeps having these nightmares that she keeps seeing this stalker figure and everything. But then it turns out that the stalker figure really isn't related to Jay because we see at the very end there is a stalker figure and they shoot so good and bad. So you're like, well, that kind of undermines the whole PTSD thing. Yeah, that's very cool.
00:52:50
Speaker
So what you're saying is, there is actually a stalker. She's not going mad. And maybe it is. Maybe it is in her head. I don't know. But yeah, it's like, okay, the stalker's real and he has shot her granddad. And you're like, well, okay, so she did have a reason to feel very worried and anxious and everything. And then when she confronts Jay, it's very amicable. And I do like that interaction that they both have. Although you can get him arrested and executed.
00:53:16
Speaker
that's the ending i had read about what executed i think you can get him turned into the police and they i think they give him the death penalty oh my god yeah there you go i'll give you that bark ending there but obviously you and i would never have gone anywhere near that ending so it's all good i'm actually just reading the ending now just not because i don't believe you but i'm just like surely
00:53:37
Speaker
But yeah, reading the synopsis here, it says Zoe can forgive Jay but asks that he no longer contact her or she can turn them into the police. Jay can live free but on the run, be imprisoned or executed. Jesus, that is grim. Because of all the people, it goes back to what you were saying, they do such a good job of characterising Jay as this very sympathetic
00:53:59
Speaker
I would say more antagonists, but even then I'm very hard-pressed to say he's an antagonist. I would say he's more just a victim of circumstance, kind of ironically enough. Like Zoe, she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, much like Jable is at that particular point because he didn't want to do these things, but he was forced by his family. And you know, there's that whole thing about culpability and accountability for him being a relative.
00:54:27
Speaker
adult slash late teenager. I can't actually remember how old he's supposed to be in the game. Hank is in his late teens. Yeah I got the impression he was in his late teens because I think he was just out of school because when he met Vanessa I think she recognized him or he was going to the same school I think.
00:54:44
Speaker
What you've said there has made a few things fall into place. I think he's very similar to Vince in the sense of Vince was a man trying to do what was right for his family. And at the time, even though Jay didn't want to do the bad things, the scene with the dad trying to bury the debt collector, et cetera, you know, you can refuse to it. Jay was very loyal to at the time what he thought were his family. You knew he didn't want to be there, but was doing what he thought was going to be right for his family. So you've got very opposing people at the end of potentially the ethics scale.
00:55:13
Speaker
in their heads they are just trying to do the right thing for their family. It is a very, and not to borrow a quote from Fast and Furious here, but it is like a very family centric game, isn't it? You know, each side, whether it's the hopes or the walkers, they both want to do what's right for the families. I mean, even though the hopes
00:55:34
Speaker
are, again, they're the antagonists of the villains. But even when Bayard gets into the debt that he does, you do see that very brutal realism where, again, going back to the sensitive topic I was talking about earlier, it's where he decides that he's going to kill himself so that they are absolved and they are free. And you do get the choice whether to just leave him or save him, which I saved him after a bit, despite what he did in Heavy Rain, but you know.
00:56:04
Speaker
I'll let bygones be bygones in that one. But there's a sense of desperation from all sides. I think that's what annoyed me probably about Sharon's character, because I can sympathise with all of them, you know, saying, oh, we're doing this for our family, we're doing this for X,
Character Depth and Handling of Themes
00:56:19
Speaker
Y, Z. When Sharon just kicks in the doors like, and I'm telling you another thing, and I'm like, just bugging off.
00:56:26
Speaker
You're completely right, it's a sense of desperation from each side. And something I noticed, I just had to double check the cover for this game, and I do feel as if it perfectly summarises the core three characters. You've got Jay who is prominent, he is the person on the middle, just staring right into the camera. You've got
00:56:46
Speaker
Vince who is kind of off to the far right, and then you've got Zoey who's on the left. I do think that is quite interesting that these are the three characters that the game invests the most time in. It's not as if there's other characters just kind of littered there. It's definitely their story, but I've got a question for you though.
00:57:06
Speaker
Would you say this game belongs to a particular character? Like, would you say this is Jay's story or is it Zoey's story or is it even Vince's story? It's a really good question. If you play through it, complete it, I think you would have to say to me it's almost it's Jay's story. Even though Zoey's narrating it, to me it feels like it's his story. And again, it's just because of the disconnect between her characters, the start and end of her characters arc. Although for me, it's all about Vince.
00:57:34
Speaker
But the fact that he's then kind of discarded in the second half makes it hard for me to say that it's about him. So I would say it's between those two for me. But I think if you had to pin me down for it, I would say it's going to be Jay's. You know, I would completely agree with you there. It seems as if Jay is the most consistent character throughout this story. You know, he starts off, he's quite empathetic, he's not as aggressive as his brothers.
00:57:59
Speaker
as you pointed out for obvious reasons, because he's not really related, as in he doesn't share the same mother, and he has to find his own way in the world both metaphorically, you know, by getting that bombshell thrown on you before then saying, yeah, now bugger off.
00:58:16
Speaker
it seems quite harsh but you know metaphorically he has to kind of refine this place in the world because he's always been a holt and now he's kind of like well now I'm no longer a holt. He technically still is but he's not you know but he's like a completely new person but he never really loses his identity. Behind that he always stays J, you know he's always J and when he falls in love quote-unquote with Vanessa and he tries to escape, it does feel as if
00:58:45
Speaker
he is the most consistent and he is trying to evolve and try to become a better person no matter what happens. Vince, again, you're completely right, I would say Vince is probably one of my favourite characters purely because he is just very realistic.
00:59:01
Speaker
and I sense he is just a dad trying to make the base of a bad situation, and I know that's a very flippant way of describing a hostage situation, but it's really interesting to see what they did. But for me, I remember he got taken by the Hope brothers, and I let him out in the forest. I was just like, yeah, go, you're free now, Vince. But then after that you don't see him until the very end when the credits are rolling, or rather the epilogue's playing so you like this.
00:59:27
Speaker
There's not really anything there. And again, you're completely right with Zoe, it feels as though
00:59:33
Speaker
Her character as a six-year-old compared to how she is as an adult is completely different. And don't get me wrong, I know children change. None of us are the same person we were as a child as we are when we get to adulthood. But at the same time, there's a lot of inconsistencies. Did you feel this way as well when they were talking about the stalker and everything, and then they talked about Jim, who was Vince's father, when they talked about, oh, he had a dirty secret and two rocks.
01:00:01
Speaker
Did you feel as if she was there to really just set up a sequel at points? I think so, because like you said, she without sounding harsh about a game character, it felt like she served no purpose in the wider game other than to bring that stalker element and granddad element at the end. Because again, you see nothing of a life, you don't see her. For me, the game is about the heist, it's about the standoff in the motel, and then it's about Jay's escape.
01:00:28
Speaker
and almost a bit that happens with her and her granddad could be the epilogue itself. So that's what it is for me. You just don't see anything. You've not gone along a journey with her. No, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It does feel as if they needed another character to get a sense of closure or resolution from G, but they didn't really know which character to use because Michelle can die, Vince can die,
01:00:53
Speaker
but Zoe, I think, and I could be wrong but I'm 99% sure that she's the only one that can't die. Flour in the grandad. Yeah, so it kind of makes sense why they would use her in the second part of the story but you're completely right. Like obviously it wouldn't make sense if Vince was killed in the first act of the game and then in the second act they brought him back.
01:01:16
Speaker
not like tada just kidding but maybe make her 10 years older so she's like 16 17 when it happens and then do it a couple of years later the end scene you know it doesn't have to be 10 years later maybe you can do it like that but then at least you've made her the main character in that siege as well because vince would still obviously want to protect her and do what you can but maybe you've got more of that attachment to that character at the end
01:01:40
Speaker
I don't know. I don't like video games. I just play them. It is quite a weird time skip I have to say. I'm reading when Zoe comes back into it and it's 2012, which just seems like a really random year. It's like 14 years after the events of the story. So she would have been about 20 because she's six years old when she begins.
01:02:04
Speaker
And then all of a sudden she's 20 years old and it's like okay fair enough I know why they obviously wanted to age her up so that they could have her going through college and you know have these PTSD attacks and these delusions and she starts talking to her granddad and everything.
01:02:20
Speaker
And what I will say, and this is going to sound like a random comparison, but what I do love about this game is I never felt as if there was anything too gratuitous in the game. There's a lot of moments where a game, for example, the one that is flying off the top of my head here is Heavy Rain, where have you played Heavy Rain? Sorry, just before I go. Yeah, I have. Sorry, yes.
01:02:41
Speaker
You know the scene where you play as Madison Page for the first time? And it's like you have to walk around this apartment as a woman and her scantily clad attire and everything. You can tell there was a certain demographic of director that wrote it, but for legal reasons I'm not obliged to say.
01:03:01
Speaker
But yeah, you've got her walking around like that, and there's very exploitative moments like that. And obviously I'm not saying Heavy Raid's the only game to do that. There are other story-based games that would slip into that, but it doesn't feel as if they do it with this game. There's no over-the-top violence, I would say, or graphicness. There are moments that are very dark, as I said, especially about the attempted suicide scene with Bear and everything, and him
01:03:27
Speaker
nearly bidding a guy alive. It's some really horrific stuff, but at the same time it serves the story. You know, and I never felt as if anything was the road into the story, just to say, oh yeah, we've got this in, haha, bump up the age rating. Would you agree with her? No, I would agree, and actually I was going to throw something at you. Did you feel, or I had a sense that, and this is going to again sound weird because they do shoot Michelle or Joyce, but I had a feeling that if everything was kind of going to plan, I don't think the Holt family
01:03:57
Speaker
were out to hurt any of the hostages. It's purely the extenuating factor of the sheriff escalating it to get that damn book. So for a while I thought, no they're going to be safe because they genuinely don't want to hurt Vince or his kid or his wife but things just escalated out of control and I think that fits into kind of what you were saying about it not being gratuitous and I was just wondering what you think about that.
01:04:19
Speaker
No, it's a good point. It does seem as if they just want to do the job and go home, because there are moments where they do incapacitate the people. Like, for example, there's a scene where you're either, you get the choice, but you're forced to tie up Joyce, for example, because she's the only one who would speak out against the halts and keeps antagonising them. And it could have been very easy at that particular scene. They could have just dragged Joyce back out to the back of the motel and did an old yeller, and that would be it.
01:04:49
Speaker
you know and that would be like oh my god these people are pure evil but they don't you don't take hostages and try to incapacitate them like for example there's also another scene where the incapacity Vince and Michelle you know they put they basically lock them in a cupboard this age or an office and that's the thing though they're not out to kill them they're not out to torture them or anything they don't get me wrong they're very aggressive with them and
01:05:12
Speaker
they're doing things to them that quite frankly no human being should be doing to another human being. But at the same time though, you're completely right, they're not out to fatally injure them. Whereas if you look at the sheriff, he completely escalates the situation which kind of backs them into a corner. What sheriff would get a bus in Rama into a motel with sound mind and say, this is a good idea because some of his police officers end up getting shot and you think,
01:05:39
Speaker
Oh yeah, yeah. This is not a man of sound mind. It's clearly a man who is, again, he's desperate because he wants the book. And there's even a moment where you do get a 24-esque. That's all age me as well, but you get like a kind of 24-esque scene where you get a pager from the police chief.
01:05:58
Speaker
Yeah, and then he's like, oh, you've got to find the book and everything. And I was hearing those real clock beeps between the Hope Brothers and Vince and everything. Okay, that's pretty clever. I don't like that. I have got one other thing I want to throw right in right at the end that I want to say.
01:06:15
Speaker
I really liked. And that is the music. Oh yeah. I think the main menu music as well, it's called Hole in the Middle by Emily Jane White. I would just listen to that play. I think that's brilliant. And the choice of music, I think the end of book one, it's not Johnny Cash singing it, but I think it's a Johnny Cash song. And it just fits, you know, the bit where he's driving a car across the train track to avoid the oncoming train. And the use of music, I think, is really good in this too. A hundred percent agree with you there. The music is absolutely stellar.
01:06:44
Speaker
That is something that I have been noticing with a lot of indie games recently. I do feel as if they have been excelling in that field. When you get some AAA games where you're like, that soundtrack's a bit generic or whatever. No, with this, it can be slow, it can be very bombastic, it can up the pace in the tempo and everything. There's never really many quiet moments, I would say. I mean, there are a few, but I wouldn't say there's any moments where you're left thinking, oh, that was a weird song.
01:07:12
Speaker
Especially, and I'll keep going back to that main one on the main menu, just fits the setting of that dusty middle of nowhere, motel vibe, almost like the storm that's about to hit it. It just, it capsulates that perfectly for me. Absolutely. It does characterise it really well. And again, it's going back to that buzzword of the night characterisation.
01:07:33
Speaker
Yeah, it really characterises it well, but speaking of that, before we wrap up and give our final summaries of the game, I actually put out a tweet and I was asking people what they thought of the game. We got two very interesting responses and I want to know your opinion. Am I correct in saying you played this on your own like me? Yeah, I did. So it turns out that much like other games like I think
01:07:57
Speaker
hidden intention is one. It's a game I've not played but basically that's another story based game where you can get other people involved you know with the I think there's an app or something or there's a website that you can log into and give your decision for the game like for certain dialogue options or things like that.
01:08:17
Speaker
So the first comment came from a Twitch streamer called Bad Games Jewels who said, it was a really fun experience. I played it with my best friend and Gaming Together podcast said that they asked, did you play it with a bunch of people? We played six player and it was madness. And then they said, if the story is good, we would never know because we purposely made it a slapstick comedy.
01:08:40
Speaker
with each character being a buffoon, yeah. Oh, it's so good. I love that comic. But that raises a very interesting question. Do you think this game does work more as, not a comedy, that's the wrong word, but do you think it works more as a cooperative experience or do you think it's very much a solo experience that should be played by one player?
01:09:02
Speaker
It's hard to say because I've not done it. And I said to you at the time, didn't I? I said, we missed a trick by not playing this beforehand as a duo. So maybe we should. I think it definitely needs to be played alone because it is such a good story. I would love to see if you played it, if it gives you more time because certain options are kind of under a quite strict time limit. So I would love to see if you had two or three people. And if you were arguing about a decision, I don't know how it does that. I think that would be a great idea because I played
01:09:44
Speaker
interesting one because
Multiplayer Options and Final Recommendations
01:09:46
Speaker
I completely agree I haven't played this game cooperatively so I don't know how different it would really play as because at the same time there's certain games that I would admit I would never play on stream, especially games like To The Moon, AB What Remains of Edith Finch, games like that.
01:09:46
Speaker
with the mind of
01:10:03
Speaker
because they're so emotionally heavy. You know, they're games that have very serious themes. And if you've got someone who is trying to crack a joke every five minutes, and don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to that kind of play style. If that's the way you want to play it, that's fine. But I feel as if you turn it into a three for all storybook,
01:10:23
Speaker
experience. I appreciate the idea of it and I do think it's very interesting. What they did, going back to an example that I raised there, Hidden Agenda, the whole dynamic there is that you have to choose, much like this game, you have to choose certain options on how you want the game to progress.
01:10:40
Speaker
but one of the characters has, as the name suggests, a hidden agenda where they have to sway everybody else into voting for a certain option. So it's like if someone says, let's go through the store, and then there'll be one person that has a thing on their phone saying, don't go through the store. You'd have to say things like, no, don't go through the store. It's smelly. Obviously better than that. It might work well if you take a character each. So I don't know, like if you were, say, Jay and I was Vince, you know, that might be an interesting way of doing it, where you take one character.
01:11:09
Speaker
It's a hard one though, isn't it? It's hard to say what's the right way of playing it because I don't want to sound gatekeeper-y to be like, oh, you have to play it super seriously. You can't choose any of the funny options or anything like that. But I feel as if, at least for a first playthrough, I would personally recommend that you play through it by yourself. I would say experience it by yourself and don't really look up anything like go in as blind as you can for this game because there's a lot of great twists and turns.
01:11:39
Speaker
Maybe after that I would recommend to jump into it or at least you don't care about this kind of game or you don't care about the story then maybe? Go nuts. If you've got an interest in it I definitely think a solo playthrough and I think the first time would have to be because I think a lot of the story beats would absolutely gonna lose their impact. I know you'll probably see a lot more different scenes
01:12:00
Speaker
within a group but yeah play the first time on your own I would say. Thinking back to a game I played on stream like years and years ago I played Red Dead Redemption 2 and that has a lot of very heavy scenes in it and obviously not to the same extent as some of these story-based games but there's a lot of heavy moments.
01:12:19
Speaker
but it didn't really impact me the same. Not because it was written poorly or anything, far from it, but it was because there was that kind of pressure that everyone was watching me and I had to keep up that entertainment value and things. So I feel as if he had to do that. It's not just Twitch streamers, it's like YouTubers as well.
01:12:38
Speaker
other content creators, they have to put on that persona, they have to think, okay, how do I make this game entertaining? Whereas the game itself should be carrying that burden, they should be saying, yeah, we have to be entertaining. And don't get me wrong, it does that. It definitely does that. But kind of going off as a final point, have you got any final thoughts about this game?
01:12:58
Speaker
No, I just want to say, I know it sounds like we probably have ragged on it a little bit the second half, but absolutely play it. I do love it. I think, like I said, I think it just comes from a place of just being slightly disappointed from the first, but, you know, I applaud the studio and, yeah, and the actors involved. I think, for me, it's a must-play game. Aye, a hundred percent. And not to ride your coattails, I apologize, but I completely agree with that, I do think.
01:13:23
Speaker
but it is a game that is definitely worth checking out. The actors do a fantastic job, the writing, although as you said we did kind of rag on the second half, it is still solid. It's still a solidly written game and I do think that this is a very interesting take on the, again I'm using it very loosely, but the visual novel.
01:13:45
Speaker
genre almost and again as I said I'm using that very loosely I'm not saying that this is a visual novel but it does feel very much like that in all the right ways. Actually you're making me laugh because you made me remember my final comment on it is at one point I actually said to myself on the second playthrough do you know what I'd actually like these quick time events not to be in I just want it to play out and then I thought then that's a film.
01:14:07
Speaker
But that's how good it was. That's how good I was. That's how caught up I was in the story. And it is very different. I've played visual novels. I've played walking simulators. None of them have grabbed me quite as much as this in terms of just being sucked into kind of what's happening. And I think for me, that's the biggest compliment I could play to it was I almost wanted them to take the only game element in it
Reflections on 'To The Moon' and Emotional Gaming Experiences
01:14:28
Speaker
out of it. That actually reminds me of a previous game that my co-hosts
01:14:33
Speaker
and friend Adam and I played, where we played three games of the same series, that of course being the To The Moon, The Finding Paradise and in post-the-factory we did episodes of the first two games and it actually reminds me of something that he brought up
01:14:48
Speaker
in that episode where there were elements of that game that, although I did criticise quite heavily, we both agreed that the only reason we are criticising it heavily is because we care about it. It would be far different if this game was just a lazy cash grab or, you know, there was no real consequences or anything, but the fact that this game kept both of us engaged, we kept thinking, oh, what's going to happen? Because I binged this game in like two or three days and
01:15:18
Speaker
would they say? I really, I raced through this game because I was texting you and you're like, Jesus, how far are you? I'm like, yeah, I'm really fast. Because it is, it's like a game that you don't, I mean, it obviously has to end, but it's like, you don't want to end. You want to see what happens next and you're flipping the pages and they're completely agreeing with you. There's so many games like that that I've seen where, whether it be a visual novel or a walking simulator, as you said, it is that experience. You want to see the
01:15:44
Speaker
the story. You don't really want to, I mean don't get me wrong, that kind of defeats the whole purpose of it as a game but I completely agree. You do care more about the characters and the story itself rather than what prompts you put in because I think that is a criticism that a lot of people say about these games. They're like, oh well, what's the point?
01:16:02
Speaker
It's almost like, I think I've worked it out. It's almost like I didn't want my wrong decision to ruin the story as in ruin a character for me. I'm almost like, no, you should show me the best outcome for that character, please. Because I don't trust myself in making that decision. Because there were some moments when I saw it and I was like,
01:16:19
Speaker
I better Google this just quickly to make sure that no one's going to die. Because that's how invested I was. I wasn't just flippantly saying, oh yeah, Vince punches him for no reason and that's going to get so far. I was like, I had to look it up because I just had that anxiety. I was like, oh my God, am I making the right decision? Is he going to survive? Is he not? So yeah. We are so similar. We are so similar. Oh yeah, absolutely.
01:16:42
Speaker
But honestly, all I would say is if you haven't played this game before, what are you waiting for? It's still on Game Pass as of this episode, so... No excuse. Yeah, there's no excuse if you're signed up for it. Even if you don't have Game Pass, I would still recommend picking this game up because it is definitely a very interesting take.
01:17:01
Speaker
on the narrative experience, as it were, of games. Games have become so much more than the Pong days or the Tetris days. To borrow a phrase from yourself, it's become so much more than getting the high score in a video game. These have practically become another form of cinema at times. So if you love narrative-driven games, then all I can say is, yeah, check as dusk falls out. Honestly, I don't think you'll regret it. No, you'll love the first playthrough. You'll love it.
01:17:31
Speaker
that way enough, even though we said that the second half might not be as good as the first half is still worth a playthrough. It's absolutely worth a playthrough.
Wrap-up and Acknowledgments
01:17:40
Speaker
But on that note, thank you Dan so much for coming on this episode and waxing the lyrical about As Dusk Falls. Nice. Again, thank you for having me on. It's been great.
01:17:50
Speaker
As I said, this episode is a long time in the making, but I am so glad that we finally got a chance to do it. But before we wrap up, where could these lovely listeners at home listen to your content? So just look for casting views on anywhere where you can get your podcast. I'm quite active on Twitter, so that's at castingviews if you want to get in touch, or you can always drop us an email at castingviewspod at gmail.com.
01:18:17
Speaker
But yeah, just look for casting views and you'll see the picture. It's me and my nephew. We do a random topic podcast and it is usually something quite random each week. So yeah, if you'd like to give us a listen, please check us out. I would just murder that. Definitely go check out casting views and not because I've been a guest on your show. No bias there.
01:18:34
Speaker
but you know it's fantastic. Definitely go check them out and if you want to check out more Chatsanami content you can of course check us out on our website podpage.com forward slash Chatsanami. We're also available on Spotify, iTunes and all good podcast apps. I also want to give a shout out to our current patrons over on Patreon, Sonya and BattleToaster, which every time I say BattleToaster I still love the name, still love it. So thank you both so much for supporting the channel and
01:19:04
Speaker
Yeah, on that note, thank you all so much for listening to this episode. Stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated.