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Terminator Month: Terminator and Judgement Day
331 Plays2 years ago
In the year 2022, the world of podcasting has been overrun with Podcast Bots. All that stands in their way is a Scottish red panda and a talking sandwich. With time not on their side, the duo must make their way through the good, the bad and the downright ugly of the Terminator franchise in order to keep their podcast alive for their third season.
In this episode we discuss what could easily be considered as the golden era of the Terminator franchise starting with Terminator 1 and 2. What are your thoughts on these films? Do you have a favourite? Be sure to let us know below!
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Transcript
Chat Tsunami Origins
00:00:00
Speaker
In the year 2020, a red panda in a talking sandwich began a podcast called Chat Tsunami. As the podcast grew, they began attracting the attention of the dreaded podcast bots.
Season 3: The Terminator Saga
00:00:13
Speaker
Now, in 2022, beginning their third season, they must make their way through all of the Terminator films. Wait, even Genesis? Yes, even Genesis.
00:00:25
Speaker
Oh, man. Well, Lisa's no birdemic. Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:41
Speaker
Hello everybody, and welcome to the third season of Chatsurami. I wish it was under better circumstances, but as you can hear in the background, we are under attack by podcast bots. Right now, I have travelled back in time to the year 2022 in hopes of really just stopping them. So, honestly, I could not have done this mission alone. I've had to bring in an expert on the topic we're going to be talking about today, and I think I hear him now. Yep, there he is. Adam, the man, the myth.
00:01:11
Speaker
Adam, are you naked? Nice night for a podcast, eh? You do know you can use the time machine with your clothes on. Look, look, okay, I don't know how much you know about time travel, but only organic sandwich material can make the time travel journey. Okay, which Doctor Who fan did you talk to?
00:01:30
Speaker
I said that. I talked to all of them and they all told me the exact same thing. Are you sure they weren't just hungry? Well, I spoke to Tommy Cooper and he told me that it was all fine. I mean, he wore a face. In your defence, he wore a face. To me, that isn't that, any man wearing a face is Doctor Who to me. Yeah, that is indeed true.
00:01:48
Speaker
But don't worry, we're not going to be talking about that particular film with Matt Smith. Other than the podcast bots, or PB's as we call them around here. Other than them, how are you doing today? I'm doing pretty good, I mean the Chatsunami studio has definitely changed.
00:02:03
Speaker
changed since we were last here. I don't remember quite as many human and sandwich skulls littering the ground, but you know what? I'm still happy to be back and I'm incredibly excited to be getting in on this journey. This is something that I know me and you have been talking about for a while now, Satsu, and that we're finally pulling the trigger, so to speak, is incredibly exciting. So just before we go on, what does a sandwich skull look like?
00:02:24
Speaker
What do you think it looks like? Is it just a sandwich but both? Do you not know when you have a sandwich and you hear that crunch? You think it's the lettuce. You lost a lot of family members that way.
00:02:38
Speaker
a sandwich, a sandwich aside as I call it. The great subway incident of 2025. Anyway sorry, we're spoiling the future for you guys. Today we have indeed travelled back in time to the year 2022, where we are going to be doing Terminator Month, which is the only way we're going to stop these PBs. And see in all honesty, this is actually one of the films that brought us together closer as friends, isn't it?
00:03:05
Speaker
Literally, I think we may have talked about this back in maybe season one, but I consider that there are three pillars to the friendship that me and Satsunami have. One is deadly premonition, which we've done an episode on. Another one is D&D, which your very first episode of Satsunami was on. The third, and technically the first, and you might argue the most important as it did set us off on the path towards where we are now, was Terminator 1 and Terminator 2.
00:03:30
Speaker
So for anyone who doesn't know Adam and I ended up meeting because one of our mutual friends asked us to go to the cinema where they were showing a double bill of Terminator 1 and 2. Both fantastic films but yeah because I didn't realize like I hadn't
00:03:47
Speaker
really met you at that point or maybe I'd met you like once or twice but hadn't really spoken to you and then afterwards like you and I were just talking about Terminator being like oh that was so cool this bit was so cool and yeah as you said it was that kind of like snowball effect wasn't it?
00:04:02
Speaker
Yeah, literally everything that happened up till now is because of that. These were already very important films to me to begin with, but that extra layer has lifted them into, like, hallowed territory. Now for me, when I think where I am, it's all because of Terminator 1 and Terminator 2.
00:04:18
Speaker
and I nearly spoiled the friendship between us when I said that your favourite film was Terminator Salvation. I don't think we'll ever quite get over that. Our friendship is now divided into two distinct zones. There's the pre-salvation gap, I call it. The post-salvation gap can never go back.
The Threat of Podcast Bots
00:04:34
Speaker
We're working through our issues, okay? We're working through them. You're just lucky all these PBs are the immediate threat right now. If the PBs went around, we would be going to podcast counselling, okay?
00:04:47
Speaker
said you'd go, you promised. Look, it's not my fault that PB's have destroyed the world, okay? Them with their self-remotions and reality records and all of that rubbish. How was I supposed to know? You're right, they're the true enemy, the true enemy. We can't be distracted. And indeed, as you said, we are going to be talking about, at least today in this episode, we are going to be talking about the… is it right to say the golden age of Terminator?
00:05:11
Speaker
we were going to be talking about the first and second film. I mean, I think if anybody, if anybody posits a different Golden Age, I would seriously question, I would seriously question them on their life decisions and life choices. I mean, but yeah, like for me personally anyway, this is quite clearly the Golden Age and the Silver Age and the Bronze Age.
00:05:29
Speaker
What you're saying is Terminator Salvation isn't the quadrilogy that you hoped for. I mean, despite my apparent love of that film, it's not quite in the golden age, I must admit. You know, you're amongst friends here, and PBs, but you're amongst friends here. You can admit it. It's not going to happen. Not today. I know a particular scene you're thinking of, and it's too early for cursing. I'm going for the list in my head right now, so be careful.
00:05:55
Speaker
I can hear it right now. But yeah, these films are quite possibly some of the best sci-fi films you will ever see in your life. You know, you've got your aliens and predators and you know, you've got all these films that at the time came round and they were totally just bookmarks of the time for what science fiction movies could become. But see before we jump into it,
00:06:20
Speaker
What attracted you to these films Adam? Because I know you are an absolute mega fan of these
Terminator's Pop Culture Influence
00:06:27
Speaker
films. What was it about Terminator? Because for me personally I would say it was more the pop culture side for me. So you know people talk about Terminator, they say I'll be back and you know they say all the lines and things so that's what introduced it to me. But I'm quite curious for you, was that the same or
00:06:44
Speaker
Not quite for me. So I remember at the time that Terminator 3 was about to be released, I remember seeing some trailers for it. And I was 11 when Terminator 3 came out. And it was like, I was like, Oh, this looks really cool. And, you know, I was I was getting into like action films and kind of like war films and things like that. So I was like, Oh, this looks really cool. I want to see more. I didn't really even think about it being like a third film. I didn't really register with me. And I'm like talking about it to my mum. And my mum is a really big fan of Terminator 1 and Terminator 2. And she kind of started to talk about the first two films. I was like,
00:07:14
Speaker
they sound really cool like I was like oh can I watch them now at the time Terminator 1 was rated an 18 it's now a 15 I think but I'm sure it was still an 18 at that point classification wise and Terminator 2 was a 15 I don't know if I was incredibly persuasive or whether my mom just wanted to watch them again mom was like okay right before we go see the third one I'll show you then I'll show you one and two so we went and watched one and two I just remember being
00:07:36
Speaker
absolutely hooked into them and just being like absolutely captivated and loving them like from the very start. I will admit that Terminator 3 was my favourite Terminator film for a very brief period, but then I saw it in the cinema book, jump in ahead here and we'll come to that film later, but very quickly my favourite Terminator film became centred on this period. I wonder how long it'll take the audience to figure out which of these two is my favourite, how quickly will I give the game away, but I'm not going to spoil it right here. But yeah, really my mum got me into them and just getting more interested in films at the time Terminator 3 came out.
00:08:04
Speaker
A nice little lucky coincidence, I would say, got me into this series. Looking back on it, I remember Terminator 2. I don't know about Terminator 1, but definitely for Terminator 2. I always remember it was on a channel here called ITV2. And ITV2, for any British listeners out there, is, I wouldn't say infamous, but is rather well known for rerunning the same films over and over again. It's actually how I got to know what Starship Troopers was, fun fact.
00:08:34
Speaker
I actually remember watching Starship Troopers on ITV2. Not to my parents' knowledge, like they obviously weren't in the room, otherwise they would have turned it off right away. But yeah, for Terminator 2 I think I watched it, or some of it anyway with my family, but that was more when I was older, because I'm going to be honest, that was a bit of a scaredy-cat when I was a child. There's a particular scene. I don't know, have you ever heard of a show, this is going off tangent, but have you ever heard of a show called
00:09:01
Speaker
Earthwarp doesn't ring a bell for me. If there's any British listeners out there like maybe you'll be able to help me out here but it was like this educational show that they used to show us in primary school and basically it was about an alien crash land onto Earth in like a random English village and they're like oh what's this? And I always remember the end of the second or sorry the end of the first episode scared the poop out of me
00:09:31
Speaker
because the way they end it is like it pans up onto this dark beach and all you see is a silhouette of one of these rubbery aliens that you would see in the old Doctor Who's or something like that. And then after
00:09:46
Speaker
hearing the like ominous music in this thing loads on the way it goes into the cheery theme song. It's a bit like if we started the show like really seriously and then we had you know the OG theme going doo doo doo doo doo doo and it terrified me so going into something like Terminator definitely had to be a lot older but going back to what was saying before it's just such a fantastic film. I remember seeing bits of it and you know obviously get my shielded for some of the other more
00:10:13
Speaker
I wouldn't say it's the, would you say these are the goodest films of the series? I mean it's been a while since I've seen the others but I definitely think these ones particularly are, especially the second one. The second one has some pretty horrifying stuff in it rewatching it. The first one is very much like
00:10:31
Speaker
infused with horror and that there are some elements in there but the second one has some particular scenes like i'm thinking of the bit where the the t1000 like points his finger through the the security guard's eye and stuff i'm like that is you know it's like holy shit that's pretty extreme i was thinking of that as well but then again you don't have to endure emotional pain by watching that good point which if anything is is the worst so you know what i'll take the eye twitching like scene any day over the emotional pain of
00:10:56
Speaker
of the later series. But same without any further ado, I think we better move away from this location because either the PB's have spotted us or maybe your eyes were talking about a podcast episode, so should we move to safer ground? Satsu, come with me if you want to be famous on Spotify. Oh no, I've got to you too! But yeah, we will have to move location, so listen to these transmissions if you want to be safe and we will see you in just a
Diverse Topics of Chat Tsunami
00:11:25
Speaker
moment.
00:11:25
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and journal interests. Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:11:44
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all big podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated. I'm Dan, I'm Lou, and together we are Casting Views.
00:12:13
Speaker
An uncle and nephew chatting on random topics. Some heavy, some fun, but we aim to amuse. Don't miss out, don't delay. Subscribe to Casting Views today. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Anchor and Good Pods.
00:12:37
Speaker
and we are back. So as we were saying before we are going to be tackling Terminator 1 and 2 and honestly there is no better person in the world that, well maybe James Cameron but second best person who can really tackle this and give these films the justice they deserve. It's of course Adam who is, is it right to say super fan?
00:13:01
Speaker
I think I'm very close to being being a super fan of these two films, I'll be honest. There's other people out there and there's other people that we both know who might rival me. It might actually be on surpass me in like fandom, but I hold these films very near and very dear to my heart.
00:13:16
Speaker
without any further ado, I am going to pass this on to you. The torch has been lit. Actually, I better put out this torch before the PBs see it. Come on dude, that's like 101 of surviving the PB nuclear landscape that we're in. Have you not seen Hunger Games where they light a giant campfire? You know what, good point. I retract my statement.
00:13:37
Speaker
I'm sure that person won the Hunger Games. I have to admit, I don't remember the film at all but I'm sure that person won. Why do I feel like you'll light the torch and do the sensible thing, then I'll be like the Jurassic Park scene, I'll come out like Dr Malcolm and be like, hey! Just make everything worse!
00:13:53
Speaker
Or better yet, the moment end. They'll ship her the ring. Do you remember that? With her cooking 50th breakfast on the mountain side. He's like, put it out you fools. Making mushroom sausages? They nearly got killed for a fry up. You've got to respect that. Anyway sorry, the floor is yours Adam.
00:14:11
Speaker
Well, we can't really talk about the history of Terminator 1 and Terminator 2 without briefly diving into the director of the two of them, James Cameron, who is now probably most famous for directing films like Titanic and Avatar and Avatar 2, Avatar 3, Avatar 5000, probably by the end. But before any of those came out, James Cameron's directoral debut was a film called Piranha 2. Have you ever heard of Piranha 2, Sato, or have you seen Piranha 2 potentially?
00:14:38
Speaker
I have not heard of this at all to be honest. I heard of it when there was research in this episode but genuinely never heard of Piranha 2. I think James Cameron would rather it stayed in that experience of the film because there's not something that he's particularly talked about with much reverence and passion. So Piranha 2 was low-budget, sort of horror, a kind of creature horror flick.
00:15:03
Speaker
that James Cameron originally joined to be the special effects director, but after the main director was fired by the studio, James Cameron was elevated to be the film director, and this was the first film he directed. Wasn't particularly a pleasant experience on moral accounts. He's not spoken very highly about it, and for a long time he disowned this film. He's become more willing to acknowledge it now as his first film.
00:15:24
Speaker
But, importantly, during the filming of Piranha 2, James Cameron fell ill. And while he was ill, he had a dream slash nightmare about a metallic torso holding kitchen knives, dragging itself from an explosion. And this is really the genesis of, pardon the pun there, of the Terminator franchise. And so, thinking of this, Cameron took a sketch of the dream that he'd had and thought this would be a very cool idea to base a film around.
00:15:47
Speaker
So, you know, he put together a script, put together some ideas, and he decided that he wanted to try and create a kind of slasher-type film based off this dream, kind of taking influence from films like Halloween, which had come out not long before. His agent at the time was not a fan of this, didn't think it was a good idea, and he really tried to dissuade James Cameron from pursuing this course of action. Cameron's response was to promptly fire his agent, and then he began work on it.
00:16:10
Speaker
And so he continued, he drew influences from kind of older 1950s sci-fi films and 1960s kind of fantasy TV series and sort of contemporary films of the late 70s and the early 80s, especially things like Mad Max 2. So he managed to secure studio funding after several tries, and he was given a budget of $6.4 million to make The Terminator, which was released on the 26th of October, 1984.
The Terminator: Story and Impact
00:16:35
Speaker
Now I'm going to, I'm going to turn the floor over to you here, Sadzu. Give us all a brief plot synopsis of The Terminator.
00:16:40
Speaker
So the plot of Terminator is about a woman called Sarah Connor who is really just living a normal mundane 80s life and what she doesn't realise is that a killer robot from the future has been sent to hunt her down and kill her and in retaliation for that the
00:16:59
Speaker
human resistance of the future has sent back a person from their ranks to try and protect this woman and what is revealed later is Sarah Connor is going to give birth to the future leader of mankind John Connor where he will rise up against the machine's Skynet and yeah lead them all to victory but of course the machines clock that and say ah wait a minute if we do the old
00:17:24
Speaker
time travel thing and we kill him before he's born then we'll be able to win the war. So it's very much a cat and mouse story where Sarah and this new character Kyle Reese, both of them are running away from the killer Terminator played by I wish I could say this was his debut but I think it was like Hercules in New York wasn't it Arnold Schwarzenegger? That was his first film.
00:17:51
Speaker
I know he's supposed to be an emotionalist or robot, but he does a fantastic job in this. And yeah, is that a good enough plot or is there anything I missed? That was excellent. As all your synopses are, that was excellent.
00:18:07
Speaker
and the perfect jumping off point for us to get into the Terminator. So I'm going to presume that you like this film. If I'm wrong, please tell me. As a matter of interest, was this the first Terminator film that you saw, or did you see any of the others prior? No, the first Terminator film I'm pretty sure I saw was Terminator 2.
00:18:27
Speaker
interesting. As I said before Terminator 2 came on ITV2 on TV a lot when I was younger when the TV channel couldn't afford to put Liar Liar on for like the fiftieth time and yeah they decided to put on Terminator 2 in the evening and
00:18:46
Speaker
I would say yeah it's probably the first one because I actually don't remember when I saw this film first of all. I genuinely think us going to the cinema might have been the very first time I sat down and fully watched it from start to finish. Really? Wow!
00:19:02
Speaker
Well, if I had seen it in the past, I definitely forgot about it. Like, I might have seen snippets of it, but it's not if I've sat down and I've watched it, so being forced into a cinema wedged in between two people, I was forced to watch the full thing from start to finish. And can I just say, I love this film. I think this film is quite possibly near perfection. I'm gonna go as far to say this film is near perfection as far as sci-fi films go.
00:19:29
Speaker
I mean, not to be coy or anything, but I'm inclined to agree with you on that opinion there. So I guess I can presume that you like this. Just going from what you said there, I'm going to take it that you generally like this film. But what specifically is it about The Terminator that you really like?
00:19:44
Speaker
one of these films that's held in the pedestal of iconic pop culture references, you know, as I said in the intro, you've got the I'll Be Back, Bleep You, Bleep Hole, you know, there's like loads of terms, loads of scenes, Come With Me If You Want To Love as well. You've got all these scenes that mesh into this very iconic film, but as you said, it's like what makes this different compared to something like
00:20:10
Speaker
I don't know, Robocop or Alien or something like that. What I can say is it has its own identity and it has a simplistic, well, relatively simplistic story that is done so well. Can I gush about the intro for this film? Gush away about any part of this film, I'm not going to interrupt you, I promise.
00:20:31
Speaker
The reason I love this film, and I went back obviously for this episode to rewatch the film, and what I never realised was, see the intro, there's no big monologue, there's no, in the year 20 whatever, humanity has been destroyed by Skynet, there's nothing like that. All that shows you is a ruined future, robots going through it, just complete desolation, they roll the credits for the iconic Terminator theme,
00:21:01
Speaker
And it just sets it up perfectly. You can go into the semantics of old time travel, how does that work and things. But deep down, I personally think this is a very simple story. It's about a machine trying to kill a woman and she is running away. She finds the short-lived love of her wife as she runs away and he's trying to do everything he can to protect her for the future of the human race.
00:21:27
Speaker
It's a simple setup. It's this guy trying to save the woman he ends up, as I said, he ends up falling in love with her. And it's just so well done. Like, I know I keep saying, oh, it's so well done, like a broken record, but it's the simplicity that I love about this film. The one thing I'll say is the effects. Obviously, it's a film made in the 80s, so the effects
00:21:47
Speaker
effects don't hold up maybe as well. But everything has a purpose, everything like from start to finish, every single scene has a point, every scene pushes the plot along and really it's just fantastic filmmaking personally. I mean I couldn't agree with you more.
00:22:05
Speaker
I really agree with that point about the kind of simplicity of this film, I think is one of its great strengths. And I think that really came from it having a very like six million dollars, it's still a lot of money. Don't get me wrong, but for even if we take into account like inflation and things like that, six million was probably more in the 80s than it is now.
00:22:22
Speaker
But even that is not a large amount to make a film. And I think that is a real strength of that, for James Cameron having to work with such a restrictive budget. I think it's such an economical film. I don't feel there's any wasted motion in this film. I don't know how you feel about that, but I don't feel like there's anything here that drags or slows down. I don't look at the film and be like, that's a bit bloated, a bit too long.
00:22:43
Speaker
I feel like everything moves along at the perfect pace and that's why I think it makes it so rewatchable. Like you can just sit down and you know you're just gonna be swept along and just be like completely drawn in for the whole of like was like an hour 40 or something like that maybe maybe an hour it's probably an hour 40 I think you're just gonna be swept along and you're not gonna like you're not gonna feel the time drag at all. One thing I particularly like about this film
00:23:03
Speaker
And I think another thing that I think makes it really stand out from other films in the Terminator series is those kind of brief moments where we get to see, you know, the future after the kind of nuclear like nuclear Armageddon and when the machines are trying to basically wipe out the last kind of messages of humanity. And a lot of the other films, when they portray that period, it's very much portrayed as a war
00:23:23
Speaker
a straight-up war. Obviously, Skynet has a lot more advanced technology and everything than the humans, but it still feels like a human army that's fighting a robot machine army. What I love about the first film is that it really feels like a resistance movement. They're always called the resistance, the human thing, but they always, to me, feel more like an army, while in this first film, they generally look like a ragtag.
00:23:45
Speaker
a bunch of gorillas who are using whatever comes to hand and you can see it in the rusting, like, jury-rigged vehicles that they drive around in, like, the kind of tattered clothes and everything they're wearing, and they're literally, like, crawling through, like, burnt-out buildings and, like, mountains of bones to, like, basically, like, hit and run HKs and Skynet tanks and everything.
00:24:04
Speaker
And you also, as well, get to see actual civilian life in this world, which I know Turn It To Salvation has a bit of that as well, but there's something about the scenes in this one where you're watching literally humanity just clinging on desperately, trying to stay off the extinction however they can. And you get bits of human family just sheltering in this bombed-out building as our main protagonist, Sergeant Kyle Reese, as he goes on his mission. And then we go down into a shelter and there's
00:24:29
Speaker
humans chasing down rats to get food and there's the one bit that I always think is great is you see the back of a television set and you see I think it's like two girls looking at it and then it kind of turns around that it's just like obviously the screen smashed everything it's just like a little fire it's always I thought something really good and it just I mean as weird as it is to say enjoying watching this you know like brutal like
00:24:48
Speaker
future I just really adds this to me it makes it so much more effective this generally looks like it is a resistance movement are just trying as hard as they can just to like keep humanity alive and we hear a lot more there is like a kind of genocide holocaust element to this especially when Carl Reese talks about his upbringing and the camps and everything and it's just it's something I don't think the other films ever really ever bothered to explore if they did I don't think they ever really fully affected
00:25:13
Speaker
effectively looked at it in a way that I think terminated one of those very brief scenes and it was very interesting you mentioned this when we were like messaging back and forth about this you talked about these scenes as being like PTSD flashbacks from Kyle Reese and like I think that that is the best way to describe it and it's another thing that I think makes his character and the film so great that's just one thing that I really like but literally everything else you've said as well like I completely cosigned
00:25:36
Speaker
I think it's very near perfect this film. Again with you like maybe the effects are the only thing I might say don't hold up but then again as you've already said it was the it was the mid 80s and as well we got a factor this is a very low budget film they were really trying to make do with what they had so it isn't of the best quality but for me it doesn't harm the film in any kind of way at all.
00:25:54
Speaker
One thing I just want to point out, just going back to the quote-unquote flashback scenes to the future, which again I totally agree with what you were saying there, I think they're fantastically done, but I feel as if for this film, and maybe we'll get onto it, but maybe by extension Terminator 2 as well, is the scarcity of these scenes in the future. Kyle talks about a world of, as you said, the machines, the hunter killers, the T-800s, and all of these like
00:26:24
Speaker
horrible machines. Like there's literally one scene, and I shouldn't be laughing, but there's one scene where Reese and one of his colleagues, I want to say, or you know one of the resistance members, goes out and gets absolutely blasted by like this laser. He doesn't do the stereotypical Hollywood thing, you know, where like if his friend gets blown up he goes, no! And then he runs out and shoots. He has a very subtle emotion. Like did you pick up on that where he kind of looks that he's just like, he shakes his head as if
00:26:54
Speaker
not another one like he doesn't say anything he just kind of shakes his head as if damn this has happened again you're completely right and it's such an effective moment as you say because it just it conveys so much about not only his character but this world you know where like so many people have died already that there's no time to mourn individual people it's just oh
00:27:11
Speaker
it is just that way of just like as you say just not another one and it's but it's so quickly like it's almost like he doesn't have time like he can't afford to like ruminate on this because you know it feels like he's holding himself together like barely as he is if he if he like stops really maybe the whole thing is just gonna collapse in on him so I completely agree
00:27:29
Speaker
It's just so well done, personally. I think the whole future sequence is like, you see the brutality of the machines as well. Actually, here's a question for you, and apologies for throwing questions back at you, but would you say this is probably the most brutal we see, the terminators? Obviously, as we said, you've got in Terminator 2, you've got the T1000 that stabs people through the eye and everything, you get
00:27:55
Speaker
horrors in the modern age. But seeing terms of the future, have we ever seen a film that portrays the terminators as being utterly ruthless killers? Like, even in Salvation, where you've got a film that is focused completely in the future, it all seems kind of generic. And again, I won't dive too much into it because this isn't a Salvation retrospective yet, but
00:28:17
Speaker
You know, they all seem kind of generic. Oh no, they shot everyone. Oh, but in this film you genuinely get like a Terminator going into like a civilian area, shooting up the place, even shooting the dogs that are trying to warn them. Oh no, this is, you know, a Terminator. Would you say this is the most brutal film in terms of like portraying that dystopian future?
00:28:39
Speaker
a hundred percent. And we get that right from the beginning, like the T-800 wipes out those street punks right at the beginning, which shout out to young Bill Paxton right there with his spiky mohawk. I think one of his first film roles, but they get instantly wiped out and, you know, they're just street punks. So perhaps we don't really care all that much. But then like we watch Arnie's T-800 right up to this house, like crushing this child's toy. He then gets out and then, you know, he's basically he's so he's going after, as you said, Sarah Connor, because she's the mother of John Connor, the leader of the resistance.
00:29:06
Speaker
But the Skynet doesn't know, like, there's three Sarah Connors living, and they know she lived in the Los Angeles area, but they don't know which Sarah Connor is, so there's three, so he basically gets hold of a phone book, you know, and he's just going down, methodically, down the three of them. And so he gets to one of the houses, and he knocks on the door, and, you know, the door opens up, and he's like, Sarah Connor, and she's like, yes, and he just, like, smashes the door open.
00:29:26
Speaker
pulls out his 45 handgun and just proceeds to shoot her in the head and then a couple more times just to be sure it's really methodical as you say like brutally efficient way of eliminating people and we see it as well like when he takes out the real Sarah Connor's flatmate and like her boyfriend there's no remorse to this
00:29:43
Speaker
He's not like, the Terminator, it doesn't kill every single human being that it comes across, but it shows a complete willingness to eradicate any human life that stands in its way. And I always think back to the, one of my favorite scenes in the film is the police, is when the T-800 attacks the police station, about the midway point. So basically Sarah Connor and Kyle Reese are basically taken in by the police, because they basically think that Kyle Reese is mad, which you could see why. But even though he's not mad, you could see why. And they take him into the T-800 attacks, and that's where we get the famous,
00:30:10
Speaker
backline, he drives the car into the police station and then he begins to hunt through the police station to find Sarah Connor and he's just taking out all these cops who are powerless against him because even though they've got guns and everything they can't make any kind of dent on him and he's just gunning them down in this really brutal and efficient manner and that's saturated throughout the whole film and it really is that The Terminator is portrayed as this relentless
00:30:32
Speaker
figure, and that's where Kyle has that great speech where he's like, it can't be bargained with, it can't be reasoned with, pleaded with, like it feels no fear, nothing, it won't stop until its mission's done, and that, the film portrays that so well. Arnie is my favourite, is my personal favourite actor of all time, like I'm not here to tell you he's the best actor of all time, but he's my favourite, but I completely agree, I think you did say you think this is his best role, didn't you? Or did you say that, sorry, am I putting words in your mouth?
00:30:58
Speaker
Yes, I think that people will probably say when they're criticising this film, oh how hard is it to be like a robot, but have you ever seen a show called, I think it was Humans? I feel like I've asked this before and if I get the wrong show please just tell me, but is that the one with the ghosts and the werewolves and the vampires and my thing isn't completely different? No, I know the one you're thinking of
00:31:21
Speaker
What's that called? Humans? Well, I'm thinking of I just completely confused it for context. It was like, I think it was on the BBC. There was this British show, probably 10 years old now, actually, probably isn't there or something like that. But that was to do with like werewolves and vampires and ghosts. And I'm sure that that's not me to ask me if I see the show called humans. I always think of it as that one. But I'm probably wrong. But anyway, sorry. So I don't think I've seen the one that you're talking
00:31:41
Speaker
Humans is a 2015 drama from Channel 4. So to all the British listeners, you'll be like, whoo, Channel 4. Humans is about these androids. It's basically like Detroit become human. Domestic androids have become like such a widespread thing. And it's basically like a better version of Detroit become human, if you can believe that. Anyway, the point is in humans, the actors actually went through like a lot of classes to learn
00:32:08
Speaker
how to be robots, because a lot of the cast members are supposed to be very synthetic. For example, for me, I would be like, hello, my name is Sad to Nabi. How can I help you? You know, obviously that's terrible, but they did all these things so they could copy the mannerisms, they could copy how they walked, how they talked, how they would interact with certain things.
00:32:29
Speaker
And it is absolutely, it's a fantastic show, first of all. I would wholeheartedly recommend it because I keep slipping that into every episode until Adam watches it and I'm like, God, it's on Netflix, go on, go on. But my point going back to Terminator is it's easy for someone to say, oh, he doesn't have to act because he's a robot. But I think the way he walks, the way he holds his, because I mean, back in the 80s and
00:32:52
Speaker
I mean, technically nowadays even though he's older, but Arnie is like a beefy guy. You know, he's a bodybuilder, that's what he's famous for. You know, his action films and being muscular as hell. I mean, we've all seen that scene out of Predator 2 where he locks hands and bulging muscles come out, so he's like a big intimidating guy and I think he is probably the perfect
00:33:13
Speaker
choice for this particular Terminator? I mean, I would personally be afraid. Would you be afraid if Arnold Schwarzenegger came out and was just like, are you Adam Connor? If 80s Arnold, 1980s Arnold Schwarzenegger approached me with the look on his face that he does in this film, I'd be.
00:33:29
Speaker
I'd be absolutely crapping my pants. There is the very funny thing about the logic of it doesn't make sense because the terminators are meant to be like infiltration units. I'm sorry, 1980s, 1980s Arnold Schwarzenegger really stands out. You're going to probably notice him, but what I think really works about this film is that that doesn't matter to me. That kind of like plot hole really, I couldn't care less because I think he embodies it so perfectly. Just as you said in the mannerisms, the way he walks, like the way he moves, you know, like his head
00:33:58
Speaker
like I think he did a lot of training with using guns and firearms because even the way he does that he manages to keep that such a blank you know neutral expression on his face like a machine would in a way that human beings going to probably show some kind of emotion in a situation like that so it's just it was a
00:34:13
Speaker
purely perfect piece of casting. Interestingly, you might know this hat so bad, just for the case of members of the audience. Originally, Arnie was scheduled to was down to play Kyle Reese, the main hero alongside Sarah Connor. In this film, James Cameron was very against that idea. And in his first meeting with Arnie, he was determined that he was going to get to like back down from this role. So he planned to have a fight with him and just to like kind of piss him off. So he would go away. But he actually got talking to him and he actually really liked Arnie. They developed. I think they still have a lasting
00:34:43
Speaker
I think they're still very good friends, but they kind of both sort of gravitated thumbs up, gravitating more towards the Terminator role. And that's where James Cameron had a thought and be like, I think he could be great, you know, at this role. I mean, there's that, there's that, um, it's funny in one sense, but not funny in another sense. OJ Simpson was somebody who was touted to play the Terminator originally. For those who don't know, OJ Simpson was a, was a very famous running back in the NFL in the seventies, I believe, and became very infamous in the nineties for
00:35:10
Speaker
been accused of killing his ex-wife and her boyfriend in a very kind of famous trial and very dubious, you know, but not we're going to get into that in this episode, but at the time James Cameron didn't want him because he said I didn't think OJ would make a convincing killer. One of these very sort of, you know, darkly dark comedy moments. Age like milk. Age like milk in the sun, really that one.
00:35:33
Speaker
Yeah, but like, it's a complete perfect piece of casting.
Performances and Character Evolution
00:35:36
Speaker
And since we're on the topic of character, what do you think about the rest of the kind of main cast of this film? We've got Michael, I always say Michael Bein, I'm not sure if it's Michael Bein, but do you know which way it's meant to be? No. Let's say, you say however you want, and I'll say however I want, we'll compromise there. We've got Michael Bein, who plays Kyle Reese, the soldier who sent back from the future to protect Sarah Connor. And then we have Linda Hamilton playing Sarah Connor herself. What do you think about Linda Hamilton and Michael Bein in this film? How do you think they do?
00:36:03
Speaker
they both do fantastically to be honest because I'm going to be honest maybe I'm taking too much of like a modern approach to this but it could have been so easy to have Linda Hamilton as this kind of damsel in distress because there's a very fine line when it comes to action films like this and it's something that a lot of 80s and 90s action films fell into the trap of where and I know I said it's a sci-fi but come on sci-fi action
00:36:32
Speaker
there's this trope where you've got to have the muscular male hero and you've got to have the screaming lady at his side and she can't do anything except get kidnapped by the villain or you know like quite helpless while the guy has to go and do things and
00:36:49
Speaker
At the same time for this one, I think she plays the character perfectly. I'm gonna say this, she plays the character absolutely perfectly. Is this a woman who is living through the 1980s, she's just living her life, and then this weird man in a stolen trench coat comes up to her.
00:37:08
Speaker
probably a smelly trench coat because he stole it. But, you know, he comes up to her and he says there's a robot that's sent from the future that's trying to kill you because your name's Sarah Connor. Don't get me wrong, if I was told that regularly, if someone said there's a robot from the future trying to kill you,
00:37:23
Speaker
You would be weirded out by the guy telling you this, not the other way about. You would be like, oh my god, let's go. She doesn't do that though. That's the thing, she doesn't say, oh yay, okay, I'm getting chased by a robot, let's go. It's just very realistic the way she reacts
00:37:40
Speaker
the time she sees the Terminator, she's scared, she's vulnerable. At the same time though, she is really strong-willed, she fights back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does she help throw bombs out of the truck, or is it her running down to distract the Terminator?
00:37:57
Speaker
Yeah, she helps make them and then she ends up driving the car when, I think it's just Kyle who then kind of lobs them towards the end of the film where they're being chased by T-800. Yeah, it's Kyle lobbing them out. But yeah, as you say, she's always thought of funny, I always thought, all right. He's like, run quickly as the Terminator's basically got into this like giant fuel tanker, chasing them down. He's like, run quickly. So he jumps into this like dumpster.
00:38:18
Speaker
and the terminator just drives past the dumpster and just like starts chasing down Sarah Connor and well that's very brave of you Kyle for like the one the moment that you're meant you had one job which is to protect Sarah Connor and you left her in like literally the most vulnerable situation here but yeah as you say like she gets this there's that particular bit at the end after the terminator has been basically reduced down to its metal exoskeleton which can i say by the way
00:38:38
Speaker
The Terminator, the T-800 is a pretty terrifying design. I find this incarnation of it in the Terminator to be the most scary, the most terrifying. I think a lot of that comes from this kind of stop motion. I don't know. I find stop motion quite freaky and quite scary. So I don't know. Maybe you don't feel the same way. But I find this particular version of the Terminator when it's chasing them through the kind of like factory to be incredibly terrifying. As her and Kyle are trying to get away, Kyle's been quite badly injured. My Terminator and he's kind of just like, looks like he's about to give up. And then Sarah just grabs him by the lapels.
00:39:08
Speaker
move it on your feet soldier and it's the kind of start of what that character will become especially in the next film. I think Linda Hamilton does a very good job of developing that character over the hundred minutes of the runtime. What about Michael Bayne? How do you feel about him?
00:39:23
Speaker
he does a good job and he does that sense of desperation really well. As you said, there's a scene where they get arrested by the police because of everything going on. He's begging them, he's desperate, he's saying, you know, we're all gonna die and everything.
00:39:39
Speaker
And then of course they laugh it off because why would you believe someone who says they are quote unquote from the future who's gonna save humanity. But then obviously the famous scene of I'll be back and then he drives into the police station, or sorry the terminator drives into the police station, blows away everybody in his path.
00:39:58
Speaker
it's just like such a fantastic sequence but I do think Michael Bayne, he just does a fantastic job I think of trying to be this protector but at the same time realising he's out of his depth because would you agree with this, would you say that a lot of films, maybe not modern films but kind of recent films anyway, they have this thing where they have the trope of the savvy time traveler
00:40:23
Speaker
Yeah I exactly know what you mean like one who's like he's kind of au fait with the time period he's jumping into completely while Kyle is anything but that. Like he has no idea about this future he only knows about it from what John Connors told him and I think that's fantastic because obviously you're not going to have
00:40:40
Speaker
many history books I'm assuming and like this model that's been ripped apart by terminators. So the only real historical information you're getting is, and I'm gonna put on that history nerd glasses here, you're only gonna get like oral primary sources here, you're only gonna get like very biased sources where maybe there'll be a kind of hint of romanticization from John to say, oh in this time before the dystopian hell that they're in just now,
00:41:09
Speaker
it's everything that John is telling him. Am I right in saying that Kyle was born in this world? Yeah, yeah, he made the point that he was born after Judgement Day. Yeah, he has no idea about what this kind of world could have been, because it's not really… you know how we look at history, where we both look back on it and we kind of compare it to where we are now and we think, okay, there's like a development
00:41:33
Speaker
going on there for these people, and by that I mean like Kyle Reese and anyone in the future, that has always been their life. So to go back into a world where there's humans everywhere, there's no Skynet, I think he does a great job. And I honestly think the actor does absolutely fantastic job of portraying that. But sorry, just before we go on, you've actually got a claim to fame with this actor, don't you? A very embarrassing, let's say very
00:41:59
Speaker
embarrassing, like, story with... Yes, I met Michael. I met Michael Bynne at a Comic Con in Glasgow. Maybe one I was nervous of ever felt in my life when I was standing in the EQ going up to meet him, just because I love this film so much. I really love Karagoi's character, and I really, I really like Aliens as well. That's probably Michael Bynne's other biggest film, I would say. So yeah, so I came to meet him, and he was very, he was very nice, because he was obviously quite tired. I was getting towards the end of the day, so I think he maybe had enough, but he was a nice guy. But yeah, I stood there and embarrassed myself. I was like,
00:42:27
Speaker
I really like The Terminator, it's one of my favourite films I'm sitting there. Poor guy, he's just being like, oh my god, like, it is nerd out of my face right now. But yes, I did meet Michael Bein and I did embarrass myself in front of him in my eternal shame. Come with me if you want to cringe. That was literally the title to that, to my encounter with him.
00:42:45
Speaker
I actually remember that one because I was standing in the distance and I actually didn't think there was anything wrong until you shimmied back over. You're like, yeah, no, this is, it's like, no, we need to go now speaking this again. But don't you want to see the Tommy Cooper note to who constantly? It's like, no, I want to go home.
00:43:02
Speaker
At least I got his autograph out of it, so there we go. I think he wrote the Come With Me If You Want To Live line on it as well, so there we go. I'll need to, I don't actually, I'll need to go dig my autograph out, but yes. Do you know, it's funny with Michael Bayne, this film, he said he was a very nice guy when I met him. I'm gonna, and I don't mean to be, I don't mean to be mean to the guy, like, I don't think he's the greatest actor of all time.
00:43:21
Speaker
I think to be honest, I think he was limited. I think he is limited as an actor. But that being said, I think that limitation actually works really well for this film and it's for all the reasons that you've just detailed. I think not wooden delivery
00:43:56
Speaker
is too strong.
00:43:59
Speaker
tickly fascinated with things about this world he is. He is of anything just as mission focused as the Terminator is. He's almost become machine like in his own way. I actually think Michael Bayne does a really good job at betraying that. I don't know if it was deliberate. Maybe it was. Maybe I'm not giving him enough credit.
00:44:16
Speaker
You know, whether it was deliberate or not, I think Michael Bynes does a really good job of bringing this character to life and bringing that across as somebody who is just out of touch, out of step from a completely different world and time. And I think that also really helps that scene that we were talking about earlier when his squad mate is like disintegrated by the... I don't know, actually, this is how terrible a fan I am. I don't actually know if there's a proper name for those kind of big tank.
00:44:37
Speaker
things, but I'll just call him the tanks when this is integrated and he just does that kind of like, not another one. I think Michael Binder does a great job of just portraying that character. So I think he's actually perfect for this film, whether like, you know, it was all deliberate acting, whether it's just maybe to do with his slight lack of complete acting. And I'm sorry, if Michael Binder listens, I'm really sorry. Thank you for being so nice when I met you, and I'm really sorry that I've made it seem like you're a terrible actor, because you're not a terrible actor. I love Terminator, I love Aliens, and you know, I think you're great. But
00:45:05
Speaker
I'll take the blame if Michael Baye comes after us and we're slamming his ability. So just before we wrap up and move on to the next film, as one last point, this film has a very different feel to the others in my opinion and I feel like it's basically kind of a horror film in many ways, almost like a horror slasher film. First of all, do you agree with that? And number two, what do you think about that? Do you like the fact that it's slightly more different tone and genre to others in the series or do you prefer more the way that the Terminator series moved more into the action genre?
00:45:35
Speaker
No, I would absolutely agree with that. I think the Terminator definitely has a different feel to, like completely to the other
Terminator 2: Stakes and Budget
00:45:43
Speaker
ones, even to Terminator 2. And I think the best example of this is probably if you compare it to something like Alien.
00:45:50
Speaker
So Alien 1 was very much this horror film where, as you may know, there's an alien aboard like a spaceship, it's stalking the crew, and one by one they're getting picked off. And much like Alien, Terminator's a film about this robot from the future that is hunting down Sarah Connor and killing anyone and everyone in his way until he gets what he wants.
00:46:16
Speaker
absolutely fantastically done and there is that sense of horror watching like all the films back to back because I'm a psycho, I watched all of these films back to back over a couple of days. I think this is where the T-800 personally is its strongest and its most intimidating because as we said before the Terminator, what is it the coyote says the Terminator doesn't sleep, it doesn't eat, it just keeps going?
00:46:45
Speaker
That's the only time you really see that side of the Terminator, especially the T-800s, because later on they recycle the formula of, oh look it's another Terminator, oh it's evil when it's got a couple of fancy gadgets. While it was some novel there, it's not really that great when you keep repeating that formula over and over and over again.
00:47:09
Speaker
and the Terminator that you grew up with watching being this absolutely murderous horrifying machine just suddenly turns into comic relief or, oh look, I know that guy from Terminator as you point to the CGI husk of Arnie in Terminator Salvation or in Genesis or other films you think. Really?
00:47:32
Speaker
I don't know, would you agree with that, that this is probably the scariest the Terminator films get with portraying the Terminator? Because don't get me wrong, T2 does have its scary moments, but I feel as if the levity of a lot of the situations do kind of outweigh it. No, I completely agree.
00:47:51
Speaker
especially for your standard terminators, but this model of the terminators becomes the more standard one that we see. We see quite a few of them in the opening of Terminator 2, but as you said, they never have that fear factor that they do in the first one.
00:48:06
Speaker
because I think it is that because it is the kind of man versus machine quality and I think I think the minute that other Terminator films started adding basically a lot of time machine versus machine it's not as terrifying you know even though the like the t1000 is terrifying and scary in a lot of different ways because it's fighting you know a t800 it's not the same as when it's like two humans desperately trying to do anything they can to like hide or just slow down this like relentless machine and yeah so no I'd completely agree
00:48:33
Speaker
that this I think is the scariest the Terminator films got. It doesn't seem like they want to kind of go back to this or if they do they don't want to like fully commit to going back to this way so yeah I don't think we'll ever see another Terminator film like this honestly. And again sorry I know I'm prolonging the inevitable ironically enough I'm prolonging our judgment on Judgment Day but
00:48:53
Speaker
yeah they never really go back to that and it's weird because that's the thing that made this franchise so famous and popular and just one more point before we move on though because as you said it's almost as if they normalize the T-800 isn't it they like make them the standard model if that was the case though then what would stop them from just sending a whole bunch of them back because I know obviously if you think about this film too much like the time travel part of it you kind of think oh
00:49:22
Speaker
though and I don't know if that makes sense or this makes sense but the fact that they only sent one and a machine that's only programmed to think logically believes that they can do the job was just one terminator because if they thought that they could kill Sarah Connor or they were going to have difficulty then they would have sent more than one and I know from a technical perspective that's because James Cameron wanted to have the team 1000
00:49:48
Speaker
In the first Terminator film, did you know that? Yeah, I saw some stuff saying he'd hoped to put it in. See, in all honesty, I think that would have ruined the film. Completely agreed. Just thinking about 80s technology, I think that seemed to be, from what I read, the reason that they didn't decide to go ahead with it. But if we think about kind of 80s technology, that would have aged very badly. So I completely agree. I think it was a great decision to scrap that. But yeah, sorry. That's my final point, I swear.
00:50:12
Speaker
Can I sum up for both of us and again tell me if I'm being unfair but I think we like this film just a tad just a tad I think we like this film a lot again I think you said this you said this right at the beginning and I'll just cosign again I do I mean effect aside I do think this film really holds up even today would you would you agree with
00:50:28
Speaker
Oh absolutely. As I said the only thing that doesn't hold up in this film are the effects but honestly there's not many films at the time. There are a few, you know, there's that fair few that you think how did they get those effects and how did they get that particular shot and things like that. See for the time and the absolute dedication for this film, like one of the facts I read about this as well was that
00:50:55
Speaker
You're gonna hate me for this, Adam, but James Cameron went to the James Nguyen School of Filming. Did you know this? My god. I don't know if this is the official term, but it was like Guerrilla Filming, where you would film in a location in secret and then run away. Oh, is this for the final shot?
00:51:13
Speaker
There was that as well, yeah. You mentioned how much you loved the intro, can I just briefly state how much I love the outro. The end of this film I think is amazing, with Sarah Connor in Mexico and then being like, there's a storm coming, and I know and just started driving into it, I love that. So that was a tangent, but I heard that bit was, as you say, guerilla film, were there other bits?
00:51:33
Speaker
I think there was some in the streets, but I don't quite know which bits, but there's definitely other bits, I'm sure, where they just had to fill them and then run away before the police showed up. And I thought, wow, I wonder where James Nguyen got that for pandemic.
00:51:51
Speaker
Maybe I'm too harsh on James Newman for that. He was a visionary. You did not understand. No, it's true. I didn't understand the appeal of diagonal camera angles. Then again, I don't think anyone understood that film. Maybe gone, no, sorry. You just had to bring, well, you couldn't help yourself, but you couldn't, we couldn't just have nice things. We couldn't just talk about films that we liked. You had to bring bardemic into it. It's season three, okay. Is this called a callback? I can't believe it. It's like that old meme. I can't believe you've done this. God.
00:52:19
Speaker
Please don't maybe watch that. Is there anything else you want to say about The Terminator before we move on? Honestly, I would say this is probably, if not one of the best, probably the best in the franchise in terms of their pacing, characterisation, and the only thing that lets it down is really the effects. Like I would go as far to say this is near enough a perfect film in terms of every single story beat. Come at me. For all those Salvation fans, all one of you. Come at me, bro.
00:52:48
Speaker
Are you talking about me the one? Yeah, oh yeah. Come at me Adam. I mean, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna just stop the charade. This is not only my favourite film of the series, this is my favourite film of all time. Again, just my personal opinion, I think this film was perfect.
00:53:03
Speaker
watching it again I tried to see if I could find something that I thought like well maybe that's not perfect and the effects are the only thing that are close but even then I can't dock it for the effects because I'm just like it's mid 80s it's low budget I really don't think there's they're in it long enough to really detract from it this film was perfect to me if you haven't seen it I highly recommend go watching it if you have seen it go watch it again it's still great it still stands out
00:53:26
Speaker
So the Terminator proved to be both a commercial and a critical success, and the film studio was keen for work on a sequel to begin as soon as possible. However, disputes between Helmdale Film Corporation, which partially owned the rights to the Terminator, disputes between them and Cameron Schwarzenegger, stalled any further progress on making a sequel.
00:53:45
Speaker
However, this dispute was resolved in 1990 when Helmdale were bought out for their rights, and production of Terminator 2 began almost immediately. While the first film had a budget of $6.4 million, Terminator 2 had an estimated budget of $94 to $102 million, just a little bit more, and this made it the most expensive film ever made at the time, and it was released on the 3rd of July 1991.
00:54:09
Speaker
I tell you what, I won't be harsh that, so you did such an excellent job with this plot synopsis determinator that I will take over and I'll give a brief plot synopsis determinator to. Good speed. So we flash forward to 1995. Sarah Connor has been captured by the police. She is now committed to a mental institution and her son, who's now born John Connor, has been taken away from her and is now being raised by foster parents.
00:54:35
Speaker
Jon is a bit of a delinquent, if we're honest here, always getting into trouble and is kind of aimless and anger at his mum for feeling like she lied to him about what his future was going to be and what his destiny was. In the meantime though, Skynet sends back another Terminator, this time the T-1000, to take out Jon while he's a kid and again ensure Skynet's victory in his war against humanity.
00:54:59
Speaker
The T-1000 this time is made of a kind of liquid metal alloy, which allows it to not only turn itself into knives and other stabbing weapons, but also to imitate other human beings and even disguise itself in kind of floors and things like that. So to counter this, the Resistance sends back another fighter to protect Jon and ensure his survival.
00:55:18
Speaker
But rather than sending a human, this time they decide to send their own Terminator, which they've reprogrammed, and turn to the good side to protect John and to hopefully defeat the T-1000. This turns out to be a T-800, very similar to the model that was sent back in 1984 at a Kill Sericon.
00:55:33
Speaker
After John links up with the T-800, he decides to rescue his mother, break her out of the mental institution, and the three of them then are forced to both try and evade the efforts of the T-1000 to find and eliminate them. But also they begin to uncover more about how Skynet is formed, and they learn that the origins of Skynet are being developed currently by a company called Cyberdyne, and by a man called Miles Dyson. Sarah Connor takes on herself and decides that the best way to prevent Judgment Day is to eliminate Miles Dyson,
00:56:03
Speaker
However, John and the T-800 dissuaded from that and they begin to form an alternate plan to see if they can halt Miles' work and prevent Skynet from ever being formed, all while the T-1000 continues to track them down. This was the first Terminator film that you saw. First of all, what's your kind of general feeling on this film? And if you do like it, what are the things that you particularly like about it?
00:56:23
Speaker
so i saw this film again as i said i think the first time i saw this film was like on the tv when they were re-running it a thousand times and i remember watching it i was really hooked by the intro because they start off again in the future but
00:56:39
Speaker
maybe I'm gonna get a wee bit controversial for my takes in this film but I feel as if this is when they started. I'm not saying it was bad in this film because this was the first time they did these tropes and things but I feel as if this is when they started all these tropes like this was the basically the ground zero for the narration over Judgment Day, the narrations over the future landscapes and things because as we said before the first film
00:57:07
Speaker
does such a great job of telling you nothing, just showing you this dystopian wasteland where all these machines are crawling over like skulls and things, and then in Terminator 2, although it's well done in that film, you get the whole, in the future, they try to kill me, my name is John Connor, you're like, ugh.
00:57:25
Speaker
they don't do it in this film, they do it a bit more upbeat, but that's the kind of precedent they set to go forward with the films. And there's a lot of other things like making the T-100 into more of a comedic character, which I know we'll get onto, the gimmicks as well for the rival Terminator. Like, don't get me wrong, the T-1000 is really cool, and the effects
00:57:47
Speaker
I'll actually get one to that because this is a film that famously people say oh the effects hold up really well. All I'll say is don't watch this film on Blu-ray with hyped up graphics because I'm gonna be honest some of the T1000 scenes did
00:58:05
Speaker
not hold up very well when I was rewatching and I was like you know the scene where they're in the mental asylum and they go through the bars like that's really well done but then other scenes where it's like he's a puddle when he's coming up like it still looks great but you can still tell it's CGI you know and I don't want to harp on it too much but
00:58:23
Speaker
yeah I feel as if with this one as I said the gimmicky terminators make their debut here where they have to have like a superpower as a way I know it's like an ability or whatever but they have to have a power that supersedes the T-800 because that's what the amazing thing about the first one was the fact that the T-800 was just a robot you know stomping around and trying to kill Sarah Connor but this one can morph into anything can
00:58:51
Speaker
copy things. And that is a cool concept, don't get me wrong, I love it. But you know, where were these things? I'm going to be honest, see if the future Skynet had like T1000s running around, or TXs or whatever. Where the hell were they? Like I know from a technical level they hadn't been written yet, but yeah, kind of pro to a kind of big plot hole, don't you think?
00:59:12
Speaker
you're completely right it is like maybe you should have sent this one first or even you know even like the TX from the next film perhaps these should have been the ones they were sent I mean trying to think if they have done I've seen some games and things that have like tried to explain it a little bit more but you're right it is a bit of a plot hole let's be honest
00:59:31
Speaker
Again, that's nitpicking because I don't want to be one of these people that say, oh, the film is ruined for me because they didn't send the T-1000 first and all of this because otherwise obviously wouldn't have Terminator. Yeah, it doesn't ruin the film for me or my enjoyment of the film. I genuinely think it's a fantastic film regardless.
00:59:50
Speaker
Terminator, I think as a whole, even for the first one, is one of these films that if you think about the time travel too much, you are gonna drive yourself crazy. I'm gonna bring up a point, and I don't know if this is explained in like one of the Wikipedia pages or something, but
01:00:05
Speaker
I'm correct in saying, aren't I, that terminators to go back in time, or for anyone to go back in time, they need to like flesh on them? Yes, you're correct. So they need like a fleshy exterior. So my question is, it made sense for the TX, it made sense for the T-800, what's the reason for the T-1000? Because although he is like cloaked in that kind of material, does that just get absorbed into him?
01:00:33
Speaker
because you know like it goes into like a puddle of I don't know nano bullets or whatever or like just a puddle and as cool as it is he doesn't exactly have a skeleton that's a good point where's your skin that's a very good question maybe they refined the time travel briefly and then forgot how to do it
01:00:49
Speaker
Oh yeah, that one time. That one time they were like, Dad, we cracked it. Oh, now we've lost it again. Can you imagine being a scientist for Skynet? That would be amazing. I want to see a film like that where it's just all the incompetent robot scientists trying to work out time travel. Figure it out. My God, Robot Einstein. Can you imagine that though? It's like the robot saying, Sir, it's a success. We've got this T1000 model. Then why the hell didn't you send him first? Quick, send him back. Wait a minute. Where's his skin?
01:01:18
Speaker
Ah, it's like they've had this the whole time. And you know they have to destroy it because they don't want to get embarrassed. They're like okay, okay now they have to go back with skin. Can I just say I really want to see this now, I want to see like the sky net scientist. It reminds me there's a great little like bit in, oh it's the, I think it's the second shadow of Mordor, it's that shadow of war that
01:01:39
Speaker
game set in the Lord of the Rings universe where you come across, I think at one point, some orc builders and they're busy trying to argue and they're like, yes, you know what? Building is just as important as being a warrior. They're trying to convince themselves. And I really want to see that with the Skynet scientists being like, yes, building the T-1000 is just as important as being out on the front lines and wiping out humanity.
01:01:58
Speaker
We're the real heroes. I just really want to see that now. Here's another question completely off topic, but this is me nitpicking. Like, I don't want to give anyone an impression that I don't like goods film because I really do. But I was actually asking you this and you said it was horrifying. You know how terminators or as we said, it has to be organic beings that go through or people cloaked in skin and organic materials. What if you wrapped a gun in skin and I said this to you and you said that would be horrifying.
01:02:26
Speaker
I was like, you're right, for the humans that would be horrifying wrapping a gun in skin. What's to stop the terminators from doing that? There's no reason, but once again can I just say that's horrifying. Also, but what have you wrapped it in? What have you wrapped it in, like, bacon? Would that work?
01:02:41
Speaker
Oh my god. Does bacon count as, like, just raw bacon? I mean holding raw bacon is also not particularly great but I think I would take that over, like, human flesh to be honest. Do you know what I'm laughing at? Now back to our sitcom skynet scientist here. The fact that there's a T-800 out there, it's just wrapped in bacon.
01:03:02
Speaker
like the motherboard or whatever's control when I was just like, what the hell was this? Gym 1000? What the hell was this? He's like, it's wrapped in organic material. I was like, I could see that. Why is it baking? Why is it cooking? His servers are literally cooking the bacon. That was like the T-100 because I think they talk about the T-600 being like really rubbery. Before the T-600 there was a T-200 like covered in bacon. They just really worked their way up. I love it. What does the
01:03:32
Speaker
Turkish will lead the charge when the machines rise. Oh, can you imagine just an angry toaster and this then back instead? I really don't want this, it's terrifying. Does it only have terrible 80s slasher-type films? Sorry, I know we've gone in a massive tangent here, but I swear there's a point to it. Actually, the whole point was for Netflix to pick up a show. It's got Netflix, you've got my number, if you want to call. But yeah, sorry, go back to Terminator 2.
01:03:57
Speaker
I don't know where I can go after this. This for a while was my favourite term. I feel like if people were to pick a favourite film of the series, I feel like this is the one that would probably get the most votes. And I can see why. I think as a film it's incredibly polished. You instantly get a sense of how on a bigger budget and a bigger scale this film is.
01:04:18
Speaker
As much as I'm not a fan of the kind of future stuff being more like a kind of conventional war, I do think the scale and when you see the number of extras and the kind of big battle scenes, it is very impressive. Don't get me wrong. And so I think this whole film is incredibly polished, as I say, and I think it's very well structured, well put together. I think the story beats are great. The acting, I think, is good, though. We'll come on to that.
01:04:40
Speaker
This is very much more an action film and you know what I think you made such an interesting point when you talked about this being like the Ground Zero film for what the Terminator series would become and everything you said was completely right in talking about the kind of shift towards action, the gimmicky nature of the Terminator adversaries, the kind of transformation of the T-800 and Arnie's character into like a heroic kind of
01:05:03
Speaker
comedic figure. It's all in this film. It's just that this film did it really, really well while later films didn't. What are your general feelings on the shift into action? Do you think it was a good idea for this film to become more of an action film or would you have liked to have seen it retain that horror slasher vibe of the original?
01:05:22
Speaker
I mean going back to one of the comparisons I made earlier about comparing this film to something like the Alien franchise. Alien 1, much like Terminator 1, is very grounded in horror and stalking your victim and trying to get them with the Alien or the Terminator as it were.
01:05:41
Speaker
as Aliens and Terminator 2 are more action-oriented. You've got the big guns, you've got spoilers for aliens, but you've got the big, like, mech fight scene at the end, so you've got the big fight scenes and this. And don't get me wrong, the action is incredible.
01:05:57
Speaker
As an action film, I think this is superb, it does a lot of things well, but going as a Terminator film, because it is something that was very, and again I don't want to downplay the significance of Terminator 2, but
01:06:13
Speaker
It was something that was quite common, correct me if I'm wrong, but do you think it was something that was quite common for a lot of these films that started off as like a horror film for certain film franchises and then it moved into more action-y stuff? You're right, and that's quite a trend for a lot of these things. I mean, Aliens is obviously the best example of that, and Aliens was directed by James Cameron, you know, and obviously that is very much an action film, as we say, but even thinking about a lot of kind of horror franchises,
01:06:42
Speaker
I wouldn't say a lot of them became action films, but they certainly develop a lot more kind of action elements, like thinking about things like Friday the 13th, Halloween and films like that. There's a much bigger focus on action, it seems, as a kind of franchise goes on. Even to be honest, not that like I'm trying to compare this series to like The Terminator, but even like Fast and Furious, which is very much a kind of street racing film, has now become really big kind of action. It's a really big action franchise.
01:07:08
Speaker
It almost seems like it's a logical progression if your series goes on for long enough it kind of falls into the action genre. But yeah like I mean I agree as well like again obviously I'm with you I prefer the kind of horror vibe and slasher vibe of the original and I think this did set a trend that became a problem for this series I don't think we can argue against that and we can deny it like I think we have to recognize this film did set a lot of
01:07:30
Speaker
bad things in motion. Sort of like you might argue, something like Call of Duty 4 did as well. It just happened to do these things so well that we kind of forgive it for that. But I think it made sense to transition, because I'm not sure. Just look at the two films, it's kind of nice that they have their own kind of different identities. I think as two films, that works well. It's nice to have them both be different things. It's nice that Terminator 2 wasn't just like a kind of straight pastiche or copy of the original. It's just a shame that we can foresee the future and we know what's coming after this.
01:07:56
Speaker
Going back to what you were saying there, it is definitely, you're 100% right, it's a film with its own identity and I think that is something that this film desperately needed after the success of the first one. Going back to, I'm gonna lift a quote from another famous film Dark Knight where they say, you know the iconic line, I'm gonna say, you either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
01:08:22
Speaker
feel as if Terminator is one of those franchises that fits into that because as we said the first one very dark horror gritty then we get to the second one which completely goes in the opposite direction there's a lot more moments of levity compared to the first one that was
01:08:39
Speaker
barely any kind of joking moments or moments of peace really. On the one hand that was a great move by James Cameron and everyone involved because it meant that they could explore more of the future, they could explore other aspects of this wider world and I think that's a really interesting idea. But then you look at the other films like as I said you've got Terminator 3 where you've got the
01:09:05
Speaker
female Terminator that has like a built-in gun, which I completely forgot about. Can I just say, before rewatching, I was like, oh yeah, she's got a portable flamethrower. You've got Terminator Salvation, where they do the whole, my name's John Connor, very serious and dark and
01:09:22
Speaker
Yeah, I feel as if because Terminator 2 was so successful, and don't get me wrong, with so many good action scenes, there's a scene where they're getting chased down the valley bit by the big truck and he's on the motorbike, you've got the chase scene, you've got the sequence of RNA shooting
01:09:41
Speaker
Okay I'm gonna ask you something quickly just before I go on but do you feel, is he going back and watching the first Terminator and then watching this one? Do you find it weird that the T-800 isn't lethal to put it nicely? It makes sense later on because obviously John Connor are like
01:09:57
Speaker
expressly or forbids it from killing you know that kind of makes sense but you're right before that it does show like a unwillingness to like to take people out and if you think about when it first arrives and enters the bar you know the famous I need your clothes your boots your motorcycle if that was a T-800 from Terminator 1 it would have like ripped out all the biker's hearts like without even thinking about it but this time it like you know I know it froze the guy on the stove and everything and
01:10:21
Speaker
It does break a guy's arm and stab him and everything, but it doesn't kill anybody, even the guy who comes out with a shotgun and threatens it. So there is an element of that that does, as you say, completely detract from its apparent lethality. And as well, I think it's a shame as well because I think the film has an interesting opening thing in that, obviously, we saw Arnie as the bad character in the first film, but then we have Robert Patrick's.
01:10:43
Speaker
T1000. We don't know that we know it's a T1000 to begin with, but we have both of them arriving back. And I think the film could have done something more interesting about who is the bad guy here. Before I seen this film, I kind of knew that Arnie was the good guy in the second film. I kind of knew that. So perhaps if I didn't know that, I might have been a bit more wondering, but just thinking the fact that he doesn't kill his bikers and everything kind of signals
01:11:01
Speaker
that he's the good terminator in this one and it's I'd like the film to have played a bit more with that until like the very last minute you know when John is in that hallway and he's running away and the t1000s at one side and the t800s at the other and that would have been great if we had just no clue at that minute who's on what side if Robert Patrick's character even is a terminator
01:11:19
Speaker
that could have been really great but this one I think kind of undercuts that. Correct me if I'm wrong here but is it correct that the marketing for this film also spoiled it? You could be right there. That does sound like something that probably would have happened. That is something I have heard other critics say and myself included I was going to bring that point up as well because it's completely like if you watch this film for the first time you had no idea that he was supposed to be the bad guy.
01:11:45
Speaker
you would 100% believe that the T-1000 was a good guy and our neighbour was the villain again. But yeah, that scene in the hallway is just so iconic. He's got a walking pond. I take it you know what the pun is, I'm gonna mention. I think I know. Literal guns and roses.
01:12:06
Speaker
as he pulls out. He blasts the T-1000 and you realise, oh my god, the police officer's actually a robot and they have to run away. I feel as if it would have been better, but being someone who, obviously, I was born in the 90s but I wasn't old enough to see this film. Definitely not old enough to see it and I was born probably after, is it right in saying this came out in 1991? Yes, 1991, but before both of us were born.
01:12:31
Speaker
We wouldn't have seen this in the cinema and we obviously wouldn't have been old enough to see it in kind of repeat viewings, but I totally see what you mean. I think that it would have served the film better if it was kept a mystery. But then again, that's the thing with this film. It's so popular and it's such like a cornerstone of films as a whole that, I mean, it's like knowing the Darth Vader twist.
01:12:54
Speaker
You can't really hide that anymore, no more than you can hide the twist on this one. Whenever people think about Terminator 2, I mean they think about Arnie, don't get me wrong, but they think more about the T-1000. And when you think about the T-1000, you know he's the villain. So as soon as you see him, you're like, is that the T-1000? Is he the T-1000? So I just wanted to say I completely agree with you on that point.
01:13:15
Speaker
No, it's really good. As you say, like, it is just an ingrained part of popular culture now, you know, you'll be
Character Analysis and Plot Critiques
01:13:22
Speaker
right. We think of the T 1000, you know, instantly as this like very villainous malevolent presence. And we also we but you know, we think about only we think about like hasta la vista baby and everything, which you know, good guys have these kind of lines. That's not like about you can't manage the T 1000 saying that it's a shame that we're never going to get that. And you know, you're probably right in the marketing probably sprawled out to begin with. So it never really was like a
01:13:42
Speaker
an element of the film but it's a shame because I think it could have been a very interesting one but I guess you know the demands of marketing and everything would probably have rendered that like null and void but like since we kind of talked a bit about the characters what do you think about kind of Linda Hamilton in this film and like what she did to kind of develop the Sarah Connor character and then also what do you think about Edward Furlong who plays John Connor in this film which I believe this was his film date
01:14:05
Speaker
What do you think about those two? Linda Hamilton. Again, she's a completely different character compared to the first film. She's no longer this scared. Again, she's not a damsel in distress in the first one. She's just like this normal scared woman who is running for her life and she learns to adapt very quickly to be fair on her.
01:14:24
Speaker
And the second one, she takes more of like a kind of PTSD, SCARDS individual really, and I think she does a fantastic job. The only thing, and I know I text you when I was rewatching this film, but the only thing I really don't like is there's a particular scene in the psych ward
01:14:42
Speaker
That's probably the biggest plot hole you could levy against this film, where Linda Hamilton gets arrested and she starts telling people about the Terminators, even though she saw what it did to Kyle Reese. He got arrested and they said, oh they're gonna kill us all, and then she's doing the exact same thing. It seems like a weird choice for her character to openly say about the Terminators, but
01:15:05
Speaker
again there's gonna be a plot there but the other thing I didn't like was the overly creepy orderly and I think you came up with a good reason why that happened but the fact that like she's made to be drugged up and she's like tied to the bed for her own safety and the orderly licks her and I'm like
01:15:23
Speaker
that's not necessary. I think it really is there so that when he gets like she beats him in the face with that broom we're really like yes you deserve this like oh you're not getting any sympathy from me at all. I really feel like it's there for that if nothing else. I think Wunderhambleton treated us a fantastic job. Edward Furlong, I have mixed feelings about him like on the one hand I think he plays the role
01:15:45
Speaker
really well but there are times he can get very annoying and I don't know whether that's just because he's clearly a product of the 90s to say talk to the hand, ask the la vista baby and everything like that. Did you feel the same when you were rewatching this? Like when he's teaching the Terminator the lingo of the time? Again I'm like you, I feel very conflicted about it. In the way that I said Michael Bynne I think was perfect for the role of like Kyle Reese, I do think in many ways Edward Furlong
01:16:15
Speaker
was perfect for this role as you've said like i think he plays that kind of bratty delinquent teen like youth really well he was really good at doing that my problem isn't so much with him my problem is with the kind of character they've devised i don't know like it is that way you're right it does feel like so 90s and it does just feel a bit corny at points and
01:16:34
Speaker
What I will say is I do think Edward Furlong works very well with Arnie and I do think the two of them actually have some very good scenes together and it was going for obviously a more light heart. There is serious stuff in this film, don't get me wrong, but I feel like a lot of it revolves around Linda Hamilton, Sarah Connor, more than the other two, John Connor and the T-800. There is charm and there is some fun to be had.
01:16:54
Speaker
John Connor trying to teach the T-800 to be more human than everything. It's not in the theatrical release. I think this is a scene from the extended version, but there's quite a funny scene where he's trying to get the T-800 to smile, and Arne does a very good job of this. I don't know if you've seen it at all, but it's quite a funny scene. I think some of it works, but you're right. Again, it kind of goes that way, that it is undercutting a bit of the T-800's threat. There is, I do think, there is a kind of emotion with this, like, kid trying to find a father figure, you know, and trying to find some stability and kind of finding it in this robot. And there is something there, you know, that's
01:17:23
Speaker
That's a theme that's been present in films and science fiction for a long time and still is, so it's not exactly anything novel. But I do think the film does it relatively well. So again, I'm conflicted about the John Connor character I have to admit. Speaking of the lingo though, do you want to know a fun fact about a particular line in this film?
01:17:43
Speaker
I'm always down for some fun facts so hit me up with it. As many long time listeners of Chatsunami may know, I am an absolute language nut. I love learning about different languages, I love meeting other people from other countries to talk about it. I'm basically like that version of heavy breathing guy at your window as soon as I hear the language I'm like...
01:18:03
Speaker
who want to learn Spanish. Yeah like they do a lingo essentially and I was talking to one of my friends who comes from a part in Spain called Galicia. I had to research this particular point because I thought there's no way this can be true but apparently for some reason in the Spanish dub, so at the very end one of the main lines to finish off the film is as the la vista baby and that is one of the most iconic lines that came out of this film.
01:18:30
Speaker
Now, apparently in the Spanish dub, and this doesn't apply to Latin America, it's only Spain. They changed it to Sayonara, baby, which I was like, huh, and that is very interesting. But even better, so as I was saying, this trend comes from Galicia, and Galicia, much like other parts of Spain, have their own language and their own culture and everything. Did you know they got a dub as well that has their own version of Hasta la Vista?
01:18:59
Speaker
Wow, I didn't know that. The storied history of this line. If there's any Galatians out there who are a bit adverse to bad language, and your own language, I apologise and I apologise if I'm butchering this line. But the line they said was,
01:19:15
Speaker
which essentially translates the general term as like f-off boy or f-off lad. But if you translate it through Google Translate, I got the term to scratch her boy. So I went back to my friend and I said, well, what does this mean? Apparently at Ranjala, they essentially mean to go and scratch it. So like your nether regions down south.
01:19:39
Speaker
fun fact instead of saying something quite innocent like hasta la vista yeah the terminator tells the t-1000 to scratch his balls as it blows them up or to f off that's the story of becoming human isn't it now i know why you'll cry oh my god i had so much more meaning to that line
01:19:58
Speaker
So yes, that's your fun language fact of the episode. Oh, thank you for saying that. That was quite amazing to hear actually. You're totally right in how interesting language is. So I think we should all pay more attention to and perhaps read a bit more out because it is a fascinating thing. So thank you very much, Satsui, for educating us. If you didn't know Galician, well, go pick it up. It's not in Duolingo yet, but I'm sure it'll come down to it. You cowards, put it on.
01:20:24
Speaker
put it on so we can watch the Galician dub of this film.
01:20:41
Speaker
You know what, David Cage, get in here. Get in here, you son of a bitch, get in here. For legal reasons throughout all of these names, this is a joke. This is the first time we're saying that's in this season, but it is a joke. Anyway, sorry. Yeah, well we did, so we've gone so long before we had to put a legal disclaimer. Maybe we'll get it for a season one time.
01:21:00
Speaker
to be fair.
01:21:21
Speaker
I find her scenes to be the most captivating in this whole film. It's the character that I still identify, but I'm drawn to the most. I love her storyline about a woman who knows what's going to happen. It's like that Cassandra role. She knows what's going to happen, but nobody's listening to her. Nobody believes her. Then she decides to take it on to herself to change the future. In doing so, she actually becomes what she's fighting against. She becomes an emotionless robot as she basically tries
01:21:47
Speaker
take out Miles Dyson just sees him as a target but can't quite do it because she realizes he is a human being and she recaptures that humanity and she plays off Edward Furlong's John Connor really well as well like I think she does that great thing of like struggling to be like a mother but you know also like a teacher and a drill sergeant in many ways and prepare him for the future. I still choke up when you know right then just as sad as it is when John is like hugging the T-800 and being like no
01:22:11
Speaker
Tongo, the bet that gets me is just the handshake between Sarah Connor and the T-800. It's just like mutual sign of respect because she has been incredibly, for obvious reasons, having gone through what she did in the first one. She's very mistrustful of the T-800 and really doesn't want it around. And there's quite a good scene in the extended version as well where she tries to like destroy it at one point and John like stops her. And I think when you get that kind of like mutual respect between the two at the end, I think is really well done.
01:22:37
Speaker
And what do you think about the ending to this film as a matter? Because some people call it corny and out of place, but I'm just interested to hear what you think about it. Well, I also watched the extended cut of this, because all the scenes you're talking about there, I'm like, oh, yep, so that way. You know what I'm talking about, that's good. Yeah, because I was actually going to bring that off there. Yeah, that is fantastic, that scene where they are supposed to take out, is it the chip or something? Yeah, it's like this neural processing chip or whatever they call it, the thing that makes it learn.
01:23:04
Speaker
and Sarah just goes to smash it to pieces and they're like, oh, what are you doing? And he stops it at the last minute. I feel as if that is such a natural reaction. You know, if you were chased around in the first film by this thing, and then in the second film you're supposed to automatically trust it, and she doesn't automatically trust it, just as she didn't trust coyotes. When Dee came up and said,
Franchise Legacy and Future Discussions
01:23:29
Speaker
there's a robot after you, and she went, get away, and then
01:23:31
Speaker
thought. I just feel as if our reactions and everything are so natural. I felt as if that was great but going back to your question now when you talked about the ending, I'm mixed on it because on the one hand I know there's a deleted scene, correct me if I'm wrong but... There was supposed to be that one where it was like an elderly
01:23:48
Speaker
Sarah Connor, a definitive end, but was taken out and it's that kind of shot of the road basically driving by with like Sarah Connor's narration about feeling hope for the first time was put in. But yeah, I remember, you know in video games where it's like, you got the good ending. I think it does it really well. It's one of these endings that I think wraps everything into a neat bow, if that makes sense. It wraps everything up. You think, okay, they stop Judgment Day and
01:24:13
Speaker
I get him without going too deep into it. It really tipped me off when I was watching Terminator 3. Then there's a particular line where John Connor's talking to the Terminator and he goes, oh, but we'd stop Judgment Day. And then the Terminator goes, negative, we only delayed it or postponed it or something. And you think,
01:24:31
Speaker
What was the point? Oh, it just really angered me because I thought, well, the struggles, the, you know, everything else in the second film, it was all for nothing because this was so popular that it was going to become a franchise. It was going to be slapped on a Happy Meal. Like, can you imagine that having one of the T-1000 toys where it's like you press the back and just the metal spike comes out of its hands? I think we can probably say as well, part of the reason that I think Arnie got turned into a more sort of friendly and comic role, first of all, not that it fully went
01:25:01
Speaker
way yet but it does feel like that would maybe attempt to appeal to a younger audience as well. Ever so slightly with him obviously he'd done more sort of comedic and heroic roles post the original Terminator and so it does feel but you're right like it. It does feel like we're slightly moving towards that sort of happy meal. Happy mealization if that's even a word of the Terminator franchise. Because don't get me wrong like I'll sound like a very harsh and depressing person to be like oh Terminator needs to be gritty and he
01:25:28
Speaker
It has to be all these things where no one's allowed to have fun. Don't get me wrong, this film does have its fun moments. It has its great action set pieces and things like that. But when you have a terminator that can't terminate, what would you call that then? Because you can't terminate anything.
01:25:46
Speaker
and Peter exactly. Yeah, he can't do his job and I know he's reprogrammed. Can't just say like, again, I've got no issues with pretending that X and Y is happening and believing the premise, essentially. I don't mind that, but...
01:26:02
Speaker
I think a terminator back seems like a very risky move can I just say. It feels like the kind of desperate move that like Skynet are supposed to be pulling off at this point because the reason they're apparently sending these terminators back is because they're on the verge of defeat but like it does feel like a very risky move on humanity's part but I guess it's like no time quickly get a T-800 in there it'll be fine we'll work it out as we go along.
01:26:24
Speaker
But they managed to reprogram and clothe and everything a T-800, like it's skin. Surely they would have time to be like, no time sending Jerry from accounting. That'll be term rate of 20. Your taxes are overdue. It literally would be something like, you've been shredded or it'd be something terrible like that. You know, he just hits him with like a book and goes, these aren't in the books. I don't know. I'm not an accountant, okay. You're in the red.
01:26:50
Speaker
count on me. You know we're actually talking about this earlier where you sent me a screen shot of oh what was it was it
01:27:05
Speaker
Call of Duty. Oh yeah, yeah. We're at a suspicious time for doing a termination month as Call of Duty Vanguard has introduced T-800 and the T-1000 skins from Terminator 2 obviously into that. I'm not sure if it's Warzone or a bit slight. Call of Duty Vanguard's multiplayer, I'm not entirely sure. I don't even know anymore because it could be Warzone.
01:27:23
Speaker
and maybe it's a bit of both but honestly I couldn't tell you nowadays because there's so many variations on the skins now but you've got anime characters you've even got a dog warrior just like my grander told me about world war two what you mean all the corgis like storming the beaches are normandy
01:27:39
Speaker
Yeah, there was Gold Beach, Sword Beach, Corgi Beach. What, fighting the German Shepherds? I love it. My God, let's make this alternate World War Two. Anyway, sorry, that's for another episode. What could make College of Tigray? Let's add more dogs. Let's go with the College of Tigray. See, I had to put a job in. I'm going to say that line again. I'm just going through working down the list.
01:28:02
Speaker
Yeah, Terminator has been introduced into Call of Duty. He's been introduced into Mortal. Is it Mortal Kombat? No, it's in just a certain time. No, it's in Mortal Kombat. Or is it Mortal Kombat? He's also been in the WWE games a few years back. Oh, God. He's probably in Fortnite. I don't know 100%. I'm assuming. I feel like he was in Fortnite.
01:28:22
Speaker
I'd be surprised if it was not in Fortnite. And then if Darth Vader are fighting like Rick and Morty and all of that, and Thanos is there, the world's weirdest fanfic, if they had ended it, the terminator's probably at that. But going back to the original point I was making,
01:28:37
Speaker
it does feel as if they are commercialising the Terminator, if that makes sense. As you said, it feels as if they're trying to make him a lot more marketable and kind of, oh look at me and my big smile and I don't kill people unlike the original one that did kill people. And it takes that grittiness and that kind of age away from him, if that makes sense. And don't get me wrong, as I said, I'm not criticising this film and saying, oh it's the worst thing ever,
01:29:07
Speaker
it's not by far it is not the worst film ever but at the same time there is definitely that it's the primary stages of them trying to appeal to like a wider audience because in the 80s I'm going to be honest there was things like Robocop
01:29:25
Speaker
where they tried to make it or rather they tried to market it towards kids with their toys and things like that. Even though that fell on clearly, it's not for kids. I feel as if that was like the beginning of the end for Terminator. I'm gonna go one step further and this is probably quite controversial or maybe it's lukewarm, I don't know, but I feel as if this was both simultaneously the beginning and the end for the Terminator franchise
01:29:52
Speaker
It was the beginning in the sense that it was one of the greatest action films in history to ever grace the screen, but it was also the precursor for the other films that were to follow that. Because, and correct me if I'm wrong Adam, because maybe I am a thousand percent wrong here, but I feel as if
01:30:07
Speaker
all the other films just decided to copy Terminator 2 but they never decided to look at what made it great to begin with with the first Terminator like all the tropes all the one-liners all the characters they all come from Terminator 2
01:30:22
Speaker
you're a hundred percent right. This became the template for what every future Terminator film was trying to replicate. A lot of that is because this film was enormously successful. It was like the highest grossing film of 1991. At the time it was the third highest grossing film of all time. So like it's only natural in that sense that this would become the one that they tried to replicate. But you're right. You're right in that no none of the other films either couldn't capture it or didn't understand what made Terminator 2 so good. I mean I'll push back
01:30:52
Speaker
ever so slightly a very gentle nudge because I do think that Terminator 3 had its own slight identity like it did try to do something different but again I've not seen that in a while and perhaps by the time of our feature episode I may have changed my opinion on that but I do think that one as much as I do think it is still a it did try to copy Terminator 2 obviously and it didn't succeed fully I do still think it
01:31:17
Speaker
slightly than his own things. I'm going to give it slight props there, but I completely agree with the others that I think it seemed that they were desperately trying to recapture that magic of Terminator 2. And as I said, it's understandable. I get it. Hollywood is a business after all. It wants to do. It wants to probably be successful, proven things. So I can't really argue with it. It's just, it does like a shame that that just became like the one thing
01:31:37
Speaker
about the term real film was like, let's make me to make the big action film again, you know, they probably would have benefited from maybe doing their I mean, well, either from just ending the series or potentially maybe doing slightly different things. But yes, unfortunately, that is the that was the future that lay it lay ahead for this for this once great series.
01:31:54
Speaker
But is there any other points you want to bring up about Terminator 2? All I'll say is, it is a fantastic action film. I know I've been kind of ranting on it and poking fun at it and everything. I would say that everybody involved are not actors wise, writers wise and so forth.
01:32:10
Speaker
they all do a fantastic job and I feel as if it does set the tone and really the stakes as well, you know, because there's that sense of desperation, like as you were talking about with Miles Dyson who is this just innocent programmer who thinks he's going to change the world and they have this really realistic way to continue the film because they use the arm from the first film that Sarah Connor crushed from The Terminator to basically try and boost their
01:32:38
Speaker
What is it they're actually trying to create in Cyberdyne? Do they ever say? I think it's like an advanced computer chip. I think it's what he's working on, like an advanced kind of neural processor, you know, something that can like collate and collect and understand the information at a heightened rate, you know, much faster than any human brain or previous kind of processor could. I think it's what they're trying to create and that's eventually what kind of leads to Skynet.
01:33:00
Speaker
Can I also quickly say as well, like, I want to just give us some small props to the actor, Joe Morton, who played Miles Dyson. He's not in the film for very long, but I think he's very good in the role in it. It's a shame that that character doesn't perhaps get him more times. I think it's an interesting character. One of the things I think this film does well also is the fact that when the stakes have to get serious, they do up them. So, for example, going back to Sarah Connor and the way Linda Hamilton portrays her.
01:33:26
Speaker
One of the things that I thought was really well done was the fact that, as you brought up earlier, the fact that she has almost become the terminator, she's like so hyper-fixated on achieving her goal, so much so that she's willing to kill a relatively innocent man. You know, he obviously is not doing it for malicious gains, but she's gonna kill an innocent man just to save the future, but she's gonna do that in front of his family.
01:33:50
Speaker
You know, there's no, like, tact, there's no… it sounds like a dinner party, it's like there's no grace, there's no decorum, it's just shooting your hosts in the face. Where are the standards, dammit? Back in my day we sent a Terminator to finish the job. But I think that's really well done.
01:34:07
Speaker
And I totally agree, I think he's such a well-done character, especially like the way he goes out and that desperation for him to hold the explosive. I thought that was a nice and very touching scene where he's panting heavy and he says, oh I don't know how long I can hold this and he's, you know, very panicked and everything and even to his last breath he's trying to do something to benefit humanity. You know, he doesn't just automatically blow up the police officer, so yeah,
01:34:33
Speaker
he's a great character and I feel as if even though they're certain characters I said oh I don't know. I feel as if everyone plays their roles really well and yeah I think this is a fantastic action film. In terms of comparing to the first one I still would say that the first one's probably better in terms of pacing and characterisation and that kind of thing but this is a classic.
01:34:57
Speaker
and it's a classic for a reason because it is just such a fantastic entry into the action genre. I couldn't agree more like this is one of the best action films of all time and it's a great film. Again I feel it's endlessly rewatchable as well like the first one for different reasons but I still think it's great. I watch this film a lot.
01:35:15
Speaker
but I'm with you. I do prefer the first film. I just feel the first film has such a great kind of, and you kept saying gritty and gritty is the perfect word to describe the first film. I think it gives it like a real edge and just a real unique identity that makes it stand out from the rest of the series. And it's why I've always been drawn to it. And I just, I love that. I just love the kind of energy and the tone from it. And I love this film as well. I love its energy and I love its tone and what it's trying to do. But there's just something about that first film that resonates more for me than this one, but that's no shade on this one.
01:35:44
Speaker
one is the most popular for very good reasons and if this is your favourite of the Terminator films I'm not going to argue with you, it's a perfectly valid opinion I completely understand because I love it as well but I love the first one, the first film more. So as we kind of wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to say about the Terminator, Terminator 2, the two films together? Well first of all I want to shout out the cinema in general for actually showing these two films back to back. As I said before, without that we
01:36:09
Speaker
probably wouldn't be doing this episode. It seems unlikely, I agree. It seems like a weird coincidence that one day that you and I went to the cinema to see a double billing of Terminator 1 and 2 ended up in a podcast. Here we are now. How time flies.
01:36:25
Speaker
I mean, I don't even know what year that was. That was like... 2015? Somewhat that, yeah. It's been years and years ago. It is absolutely crazy. For that reason, Terminator 1 and 2 will always hold a nostalgic place for me. Whether I've got gripes with the film, I honestly think that this is the golden age of Terminator and for good reason. These films are... they're a lot of fun to watch. They'll have you in the age of your
01:36:51
Speaker
you'll just have such a great time. And although we're probably going to get a little bit negative into the next couple of episodes, I'm not going to lie, we are going to get a little bit negative, but seeing till then, honestly, if you haven't seen Terminator 1 and 2, what are you doing? Go watch them, go check out their... Honestly, you're not going to regret watching them. So yeah, that's all I would have to say. They're both absolutely fantastic films. Well said. Again, completely cosigned.
01:37:18
Speaker
Who knows, maybe we'll be really positive through the next couple episodes. Who knows, can you read the future, Sat Tsunami? Well, the future's not set. Exactly, but we all know we're going to be really negative, so I hope you enjoyed this wave of positivity while it was here. You said you wouldn't be negative. Negative, we only postpone the positivity.
01:37:38
Speaker
Oh my God. Well, that perfectly sets up for what we will be tackling next. As we've said, this is Terminator Month, as we have dubbed it. So since we've covered Terminator 1 and Terminator 2, it only makes logical sense in the next episode that we're going to look at Terminator 3 and Terminator Salvation. Then in the episode after that, we will be looking at Terminator Genisys. And then the last film, the most recent film in the Terminator series, Terminator Dark Fate.
01:38:04
Speaker
And then because I presume those two episodes might be a little bit of a, a little bit tricky, a little bit taxing for us both. We thought we'd round Terminator Month out with a nice, another quiz. So we'll be having a quiz on the Terminator series, but this time it'll be me sitting in the imposing question chair and Satsu sitting across hoping he's done his homework.
01:38:25
Speaker
Look forward to all that in the episodes to come as we speed on with Terminator Month and see if we can take down these damn PBs and reclaim the future and reclaim hope. But thank you once again, Satsu, for both for watching these films and for being the one who suggested Terminator Month. And believe me, I was thrilled when you mentioned that I couldn't say yes quick enough.
01:38:44
Speaker
To be honest, it only felt natural, but after doing Halo Month and Sonic Month and all the months we've actually got planned for the future episodes, slight spoilers. But no, honestly, it was a pleasure watching these films again because they are fantastic films and it was a lot of fun going back and watching good films for once for this podcast. It feels weird, doesn't it? It feels wrong in many ways to be watching good films.
01:39:06
Speaker
Well, then again, we did go back and watch a bad film. Actually, four of them. So, yeah. Good point, good point. I'm forgetting there's more to this series. I'm like, oh, that was fun Terminator month. What fun I had doing this. And we're done. Then you throw a copy of Salvation in my face. That's what you're getting for your Christmas. Yeah, yay! My favourite film, apparently. What do you mean, apparently? I mean, it was on a podcast. It's official now. Yeah, exactly. Do you think people would go on the internet and just lie? Come on now.
01:39:34
Speaker
I mean, I'm sorry for ever suggesting that that would be the case. Terrible business. Well, thank you once again, Tatsu, for joining me on this retrospective. And thank you to everyone for listening. Without further ado, stay safe, stay awesome, stay undercover while the PBs are doing their sweeps, and most importantly, stay hydrated. And we'll see you in the next episode.