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Bishop Barton, DPT, Deloitte
19 Plays22 days ago
In this episode, Steven sits down with Bishop Barton, DPT, a Managing Director at Deloitte.
Learn more about SaRA Health: https://www.sarahealth.com/
Check out Deloitte:
https://www.deloitte.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Disruptors' Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of The Disruptors, where we're arming you with the tools you need to innovate within the physical therapy space by highlighting those who have come before you. I'm your host, Stephen Cohen. Now, let's get into it.
00:00:15
Speaker
All right, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Disruptors, where we're highlighting those that are innovating within the PT world.
Dr. Barton Bishop's Background and Motivation
00:00:24
Speaker
Today, i am blessed to be joined by Dr. Barton Bishop,
00:00:28
Speaker
Dr. Barton is a managing director at Deloitte, where he works with state Medicaid agencies to improve their operations and intelligently apply analytics to reduce fraud, waste, and abuse in Medicaid spending.
00:00:41
Speaker
Prior to that, he practiced outpatient sports medicine in the DC Metro for 15 years. He is married 20 years. Very impressive. Has two children, Katerina, 15, a sophomore in high school, and Alex, 12, seventh grader, and Dr. Barton, welcome to the disruptors. It is a pleasure to have you.
00:01:02
Speaker
Thanks so much. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Well, let's let's hop right into it. To get to my first question. What is the why behind PT? know, why did you get into it?
00:01:13
Speaker
Why did I get into it? Um, great question. So when I was in high school, um, I have a disabled older brother and he is a lifetime recipient of Medicaid and social services benefits in the DC or in Nebraska.
00:01:27
Speaker
And so his experience with doctors just over ah it through all walks of the medical profession, um led me to say that when I graduate high school, I'm going to go to a school where I can then push myself to get into some sort of medical field.
00:01:45
Speaker
I toyed around with pharmacy. I toyed around with medicine and ultimately landed on physical therapy and decided that I couldn't live my professional life away from sports. And so I wanted to go into sports medicine, PT, and that's where I ended up.
00:02:02
Speaker
Uh, so yeah, it ties that experience, ties a lot of things together now for what you're doing now within Medicaid. Um, and so one of the things that we like to highlight here, the, the reason I started this show is I thought there was a lot of content around innovation on the clinical side of physical therapy, but not much highlighting those who are doing different things with their career, different things with the way that they run a business,
Transition from Clinical Practice to Consulting
00:02:29
Speaker
right? Those pieces. So, What was that the why behind the transition
00:02:36
Speaker
from treatment into consulting. I'd have to imagine there's a tether there for Medicaid piece or at a minimum a tether, right? Well, no, there's, yeah, there's definitely. So I was practiced for 15 years, as you mentioned, for the last 10, I was the chief clinical officer of our multi-location, multidisciplinary physical therapy, chiropractic fitness, wellness, and research institution in the DC area.
00:03:02
Speaker
So we had eight clinics, we had four business lines, I was responsible for all things operations out of our clinics. About the last five years, I did less and less patient treatment, patient management, and more into operations and, and executive leadership.
00:03:18
Speaker
um And I found that very fun, but I also realized that I either wasn't being challenged enough or wasn't challenging myself enough. And I think they're kind of one in the same. And I started to look into other areas um to see what what else I might want to do. I talked with a bunch of people, um talked with Heidi Janenga, who started WebPT and a good friend of mine, talked with... um
Journey in Consulting and Medicaid Operations
00:03:46
Speaker
partners at Deloitte that are good friends of mine. and I started to just open up the lens. Did I want to go into larger physical therapy clinic and business management? Did I want to go into hospital administration, lobbying, consulting? Like, what did I want to do?
00:04:02
Speaker
And i ultimately found that one of the things I did in my old job was some small business consulting. And I would help ah product companies. I would help physical therapy clinics expand their service offering, improve their operations, whatever it may be.
00:04:18
Speaker
And what I realized was that that challenge was what I was looking for. And so when I came down to it, um I landed at Deloitte and I didn't land in any of our Medicaid offerings. I actually started in our military health service where I was helping ah military health improve their operations and and ah quality of care and service delivery, reduce risk in the way they're doing things. And then I made a pivot into in a Medicaid. um about, well, just before COVID, like 2019, and really have ah thrived and and loved it ever since because it has hit home for me to say that what I want to do is I want to improve the way Medicaid is being delivered. I want to improve the way the ah most vulnerable population among us are receiving care and also to make sure that they are able to receive that care because we don't have a bunch of you know fraudulent activity that's happening.
00:05:13
Speaker
But I'm sorry for a long answer, but also... I know as a therapist and as a business owner, it's incredibly difficult to bill for and get paid for the services that you need, that you're doing.
00:05:26
Speaker
And so I want to help us be more intelligent about what we're doing and not indiscriminate and help us to be more surgical ah with with how we're finding this potential fraudulent or or untoward activity, as opposed to just kind of like a ah gross, hey, let's just audit 10% of the population and see what we find.
00:05:46
Speaker
there's a tension there, right? And like anything, it can be on a spectrum in terms of how tight the tension is to one way or the other. And there's pros and cons to both sides. And and so I hear you say
Challenges in Medicaid and Regulatory Hurdles
00:05:58
Speaker
that. and I think of a, and I hope I'm okay with saying this, uh, yeah, that later, but In Colorado, right? So we facilitate the remote therapeutic monitoring CPT codes. It's the company that I co-founded does. And the waiver process is so arduous that these groups are like, do we even continue to enroll patients even though we see the clinical outcomes are getting better, the no-show cancellation rate is going down, and it allows us to space out treatment, meaning fewer resources,
00:06:31
Speaker
from that individual and or their family are required to get the treatment they need. yeah But I would imagine that that waiver is probably due to having it swung the other way, right? And some folks, whether, you know, in in a mal, you know with malintent or not, right, raise some some red flags. Oh, yeah, I mean, stay in Colorado, and this is public news. so you know, I'm not giving anything away here. But Colorado has had a massive fraud scheme around non-emergent medical transportation. So basically what you had were companies that were saying they had like a specialized vehicle to help transport people that needed help.
00:07:17
Speaker
And they didn't. They were driving a Hyundai Sonata. Totally fine, but not a specialized vehicle. They were also picking up multiple people, as many as nine or ten at a time, and throwing them in one vehicle and charging for each of those people, which you're not allowed to do.
00:07:33
Speaker
And then they were also even driving around homeless centers, picking up homeless and and paying for them to to get around and drive in their car. I mean, it was a massive it's a massive issue that Colorado is still unwinding.
00:07:48
Speaker
So when when you think about like there's one state. And you've got something that you know can help people and can improve access and quality of care and outcomes.
00:07:59
Speaker
While the state is dealing with something that is designed to help people with quality of care and access, helping them get to their doctor's offices or their dentist or their drug treatment facility that's creating fraud.
00:08:11
Speaker
The state's now just like, whoa, what do I do? And I'm not saying Colorado is doing that with the waiver program, but you can imagine why they would. So how do you be more intelligent to prevent that so that the good stuff can get through too?
00:08:24
Speaker
I think it's ah it's an admirable mission to to undertake. And I really appreciate that you and your team are going through with that. And not ah not from a selfish reason, but like as we just see this the Medicaid population in particular, and when there's, yeah I mean, I hate to you hit on this, but yeah, transportation and security, even housing, food insecurity, right? And these things that make it very difficult to like live much less recover from an injury it's like jeez like
00:08:55
Speaker
yeah It makes me yeah sick that that folks would would yeah take advantage of that in that nefarious of a way. But I'm glad there are folks like you are saying, hey, yes, there are bad apples. like We need to design systems to protect against that. So that way the coffers are full to be able to pay for the things that are really, really going to help and not put those arduous steps in place that are going to you know titrate treatment in a a non- clinical or like efficacious way. um Yes. So I, agree I appreciate that very much. And you know let's, let's actually peel the onion back a little bit on consulting. And you said earlier, you know, sorry for the long winded answer. Don't be. So the the entire goal of this is that someone could listen to this and yeah get one step closer
00:09:45
Speaker
or maybe two or three, you know, but, you know, setting
Translating Physical Therapy Skills to Consulting
00:09:48
Speaker
expectations, right? One step closer yeah to being able to make ah a change in their career, or at least feel that much more enabled to to make a step.
00:09:56
Speaker
And cool so you looked at different levels of consulting. And and as we talked about before we started recording, I spent seven years at Deloitte, right? As analyst, consultant, senior consultant, manager. I didn't know that. And, you know, I made the joke that like,
00:10:13
Speaker
A PT with some Excel skills would be absolutely just a game changer. Yeah. on a client you speak Because of you know, I'm going to stop myself there and not a pine because i want to hear what you have found. And then then also what you think are some of the skill sets you learned by treating that have directly translated. Cause know there's a couple in my mind that instantly. Yeah.
00:10:39
Speaker
come, but I would love to hear your thoughts. Yeah. so it's funny. So I started at Deloitte seven years ago. Actually, i think seven years ago tomorrow. This is October fifteenth when we're recording. Happy anniversary. Thank you. and And I remember going to my first CSM after I had started and good friends of mine were like, what what did PT teach you about consulting? Like, how could you go to consulting?
00:11:05
Speaker
and And my answer then is really the same now, which is I think as a physical therapist, we are in a unique position that not many other healthcare professions are. Occupational therapy would be one, chiropractic is another, where we spend a lot of time with people.
00:11:20
Speaker
And we also have to therefore learn how to communicate with people from across the spectrum. We have to learn how to understand what people are telling us and what they're not telling us. And then we have to be able to think rapidly on our feet.
00:11:32
Speaker
And so when you when you take this into you know into consideration and then you say, well, what is consulting? Well, consulting is effectively that. It is thinking about what our clients are telling us and what they're not telling us. What are the real needs that they can't quite articulate either because they don't want to or they don't know what they really are? How do we think quickly on our feet when a client asks us a question?
00:11:56
Speaker
How do we engage clients from across the spectrum, government, commercial, executive, junior, whatever it may be? And so i think that those core physical therapy skills that I had, not treatment skills, not, hey, I can figure out how to you know activate your glute because you're having medial knee problems.
00:12:15
Speaker
But the other stuff of it, yeah how do i how do I relate to people? How do I work with people? That is a core foundational skill that physical therapy innately teaches us. So when you then take that and put it into, okay, now what do you want to do in consulting?
00:12:32
Speaker
how do you Where in consulting do you want to go? where do you What do you want to be? you know who As I say, who do you want to be when you grow up? It kind of depends on what type of firm you want to go to. So if you're looking at a firm like Deloitte, you know, Stephen, you were at Deloitte.
00:12:46
Speaker
um Deloitte is the largest professional services firm in the world. um To put it in perspective, we in the U.S. have, i don't even know, 220,000, 200,000 employees U.S., two hundred and twenty thousand two hundred thousand employees in the u um We do ah worldwide on the neighborhood of $70 billion dollars a year in revenues.
00:13:05
Speaker
So we are we are not small, which means that generally speaking, we work with larger entities. And so if your goal at a physical therapy is to say, hey, I've been a physical therapist 15 years, I really know what I'm doing. And I think all these other physical therapists out here have no clue what they're doing.
00:13:20
Speaker
And I want to help them be better. That's not really a ah Deloitte thing. But there are many smaller physical um consulting firms out there that would be great.
00:13:33
Speaker
So you almost have to decide what do you want to do? Do you want to be someone like me that rarely uses physical therapy or my clinical background, my actual clinical background, or do you want to be someone that uses it every day, just in the consulting world, whether you're helping with product development or innovation or, or, um you know, business operations, there's a huge spectrum and you really have to decide to, in order to make that biggest impact.
Life at Large Consulting Firms
00:14:04
Speaker
ah I love it. You know, you you mentioned that there's couple pieces I want to highlight. yeah One is PTs become geniuses at context, like absolute geniuses at context. Right. So you mentioned the you know getting that that glue to fire. Right. And I imagine, yes, that is the outcome that you want to see, the behavior change that you want to see, which behavior change and change management.
00:14:32
Speaker
are pretty much synonymous, right? Yeah. well Yeah. One is, one is down to the person level. The other is systemic, but there's always people involved in it. Right. Yeah. I like that. Yeah.
00:14:43
Speaker
I think that's where PTs that are listening, like the thing that you probably don't give yourself enough credit for, because it's so just wrote at this point, right. Where it just feels like just natural muscle memory is you are a genius at context because i love it two people that present with the exact same thing, you want the exact same,
00:15:02
Speaker
outcome, which is a behavior change of getting that glue to fire. If it is a, you know, to use your military, right. If it's a military special operator, it's gonna be a very, very different thought process and but protocol than a 67 year old who wants to be better on the pickleball court, right. To an 87 year old that's in a assisted living facility, right. That you want to see. So all have the same, you know,
00:15:31
Speaker
protocol, if you will, or even, you know, even down to their home program, right? Like, okay, I want each of you doing this thing, but for the special operator, right, it's going to be very different than, and you know, maybe more around like, hey, if you want to be able to get in and move in things where you're crouched down and be able to be solid, or not be sent back to Germany, right, to get to see, and you want to stay on the battlefield,
00:16:01
Speaker
So that's the the mechanism of change versus the 87-year-old like, hey, i I don't even need you to go to the gym, right? Well, all I want you to do is like these step ups and think about this this thing or even balancing on one leg, right? and Close your eyes a little bit. like Anyway, I'm not honest. Yeah, agreed. No, you're gear one speaking like one. Good job.
00:16:24
Speaker
ah I like to say my non-clinician shows, especially when I, you know, had to demo and like show documentation and all that. like, yeah, I'd get, I'd get reprimanded pretty darn quick. and And my non-core consulting skills show regularly in consulting. So, I mean, I didn't grow up in it.
00:16:42
Speaker
um You know, just like you didn't grow up in physical therapy. um And so you, you have to recognize where your gaps are and then figure out Do you need to fill them or do you want to fill them or can someone or something else fill them for you?
00:16:56
Speaker
Oh, that is, there's, there's brilliance in that statement. um And I've been lucky enough to mentored by quite a few people. And luckily one of them who I actually worked at when I was at at Deloitte, I don't know if you've ever come across a DICE, if they still call it that, but it's the group that analyzes contracts using that AI tool. We bought it back in 2013. But the CEO of that startup we at Delay partnered with, when I was starting Sarah Health, I asked him, yo know hey, how do I think about this? Should i start coding and all that? He's like, well,
00:17:32
Speaker
do you think that you will be able to, with intense focus, be a top 1% developer? Like, what are the chances of success there? was like, na probably pretty low, right? Like, it's a yeah pretty small end of the pyramid to get into. And I don't know if I have that, some innate talent, have the work ethic, but i don't know if I have the innate talent to get there. And so...
00:17:56
Speaker
I chose to supplement that by finding a co-founder. So i there's a lot of brilliance in that statement in that you don't have to be the perfect consultant, which by the way, doesn't exist, right? no Just knowing, Hey, I'm really good and passionate about these things. And then these are going to be gaps that I'm going to have to find an organization that I either fit into or can hire to be able to supplement. So I think that yeah there's,
00:18:23
Speaker
Already a couple really, really good pieces of insight that are are coming out and which I like to restate just to make sure everyone gets it. One is finding where you think you should land based on what you want to do, right? I think you laid it out really, really well. Like, hey, if you want to be in PT still,
00:18:44
Speaker
okay Probably your Deloitte, your Accenture, your E&Ys, right? Your BCGs, Bain, probably not going to do much there, right? Outside of maybe having some hospital clients that can, to your point, afford the the fees that that yeah large groups have. um And even then, the likelihood you're going to be working much with the rehab group is is probably... No, no, you're doing you're doing emr implementations.
00:19:12
Speaker
yeahp You're doing revenue cycle management. I mean, truly, that's what you're doing if you're goingnna if you're going to go to hospital groups like that. Yes. Yeah. And maybe there's some digital transformation in there that that might touch some rehab outside of the EMR, but that's maybe. all right And niching down isn't necessarily a bad thing either. right if If you came to a Deloitte, like, hey,
00:19:33
Speaker
I think there's a whole business here to be made by consulting with large health systems to be able to optimize their rehab group. And like, here's how i think you can do that. Yeah. I know a lot of partners, including probably yourself that would happily take that.
00:19:47
Speaker
v Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, it's funny because, um, I think, I think you can create a business case for, for anything and no one's going to really shut you down really anywhere you go.
00:20:00
Speaker
It's a matter of, have you, have you, proven it out, and do you have the runway to be able to make it happen? You know, whether, whether you're designing a, you know, a remote therapeutic monitoring business or a new physical therapy clinic, or, um you know, helping a Medicaid agency improve health equity or access to care, like, no one's going to stop you really anywhere.
00:20:23
Speaker
It's just, have you done enough research to say, yes, there is a there there. And here's how we differentiate ourselves in that market. You know now that you've been in for for almost seven years, seven years, right? yeah We're not that quick. It's not going to live tomorrow.
Personal Challenges and Rewards in Consulting
00:20:42
Speaker
What are some learnings? Maybe pick one, maybe maybe one rose, one thorn, right? Like, okay one is what is one thing that you, what has been a happy surprise about consulting? and Yeah. And one thorn maybe that you didn't expect that that you've now seen.
00:21:01
Speaker
Uh, so I'll go with the thorn first. yeah Um, for me, the thorn is that in a large firm, um, you have to become externally someone you weren't.
00:21:16
Speaker
So as a physical therapist, I can walk into a group of consultants at any level. And if I don't have something that they think I'm going to add to their, you know, add value to what they're doing, then they're not, they don't really have much use for me.
00:21:36
Speaker
But as a consultant who is a physical therapist, I can add value. And so I have to figure out like where in that consulting, what do I have that is different than someone else? Or what do I have that's additive that from someone else? And so, you know, for myself, that just happened to be, I guess, being able to connect dots and and being better at business development and and an alignment of these of of client needs and and what we can deliver better than than others, maybe um for other people. you know i have a friend that i hired to deloitte as physical therapist um prior to coming to deloitte he went out and became what's called a certified scrum master and there's a there's a system out there called agile methodologies for delivering um software and and solutions and the scrum master is like the the ringleader of the thing they're the one that say okay
00:22:35
Speaker
You talk for five minutes, tell us what you're going to do. And then now your time's up. We're going on to the next person. And they set what are called these sprints. Every two weeks, we're going to work through this thing. And then we're going to follow up to see how it goes. So he he did that.
00:22:49
Speaker
And now he became somebody that he wasn't really. He was a physical therapist, still is. But now from consulting lens, he's a scrum master. And that's what then we can use him for.
00:23:01
Speaker
And then when you put him on a healthcare project, all of a sudden he's a scrum master that has a background in healthcare. So we can talk to our clients a little bit better than someone else. He can help them to understand that, yes, I've been there. I've treated like your end users treat your, your clinicians treat your members, depending on where you are.
00:23:20
Speaker
That's what kind of makes a difference. So the thorn is you think you can come in and you're fine and you've got it. The reality is you kind of have to, you You have to learn a new something new and and and that's hard um and not always that much fun in the beginning.
00:23:36
Speaker
um The rose for me, and this isn't for everybody, is it's hard work. and And the reason I say that's a rose is because I really like to be challenged. I like to i like my brain to work differently every day. I like to come into one day and it's a it's all about personnel. And the next day, it's all about business development. The next day, it's always all about client management. And every day is just kind of different. And for me, it it eliminated a little bit of the monotony of physical therapy, which can be a lot the same every day. So I've i've really enjoyed that. i
00:24:17
Speaker
man, I would almost say those are both roses, depending on how look at it, right? Like, yeah, your report is is is so important. I think that's ah another really valuable lesson here is that you have to be comfortable being a PT second almost, right? Like- Oh, in ah in a firm like mike mine, 100%.
00:24:41
Speaker
But even in ah a smaller shop, right? No longer is it treatment, right? Like you're you're helping them rev cycle first, right? Even the folks that have gone to to the rev cycle companies, right? Or are doing some sort of rev cycle consulting, you are still a PT second. Now that is a very valuable second. where you're able to look at things and be able to say, o if you ask that provider to do that extra click, like we're going have some real issues like that's going really, really problematic because of X, Y and z right you're You're able to lean on that past experience to be able to be more efficient, be more effective as a consultant and and as an outside you know objective view for for those groups. but it's not PT first, RevCycle consultant second. It is RevCycle consultant first. Just to use that as a... Yeah, totally.
00:25:34
Speaker
Totally agreed. And, you know, theres a couple of thoughts have have come off this. So one is that... um i'm not I'm not saying we're physicians, right? But physicians in general have been comfortable with doing this for many years. You see many physicians that are CEOs of businesses and firms that, you know, don't don't really deliver medicine.
00:25:59
Speaker
and they you know they're they're just They're business managers, they're business owners, they're executives, they're someone. And and medical doctors have done this quite regularly um and obviously way more than physical therapists. I i still believe that I am the first and thus far only person physical therapist to be promoted to the partner principal managing director level at Deloitte. um and And I wouldn't be surprised if I'm one of the first and in the big four, um Deloitte, Ernst & Young, PwC, and KPMG. ah Which goes to show, it's not that I'm special, it's just I did it. Someone else has to, and someone else will, and and others should.
00:26:38
Speaker
um But then the second thing I was thinking of is I get reached out to regularly from young physical therapist professionals that maybe been a practice two, three, four years and are looking to do something different. And that's great.
00:26:52
Speaker
And what I'll say is pivot the lens back on yourself and say, okay, so I've been practicing for, let's just say three years. And now I'm going to go into consulting. And I expect that I'm going to come into some healthcare company and I'm going to show that my expertise as a physical therapist is something they really need.
00:27:12
Speaker
And you're going to be talking to someone who's 50 years old, who's been in business for 30 years, who um you know is an expert in their field. and And they're supposed to, quote unquote, listen to you because you've been practicing for three years.
00:27:28
Speaker
Now, you've done it three years longer than they have. Okay, so so great. You've got an infinite more experience. However, you've been doing it for three years. And not that that's bad or wrong, but you have to recognize where your endpoint is based on your level.
00:27:46
Speaker
If you've been doing something for 10, 15, 20 years, yeah, you're gonna be able to turn that around and say, look, I'm an expert in this. And that goes for anything you've done, whether it's physical therapy or or you know product management or whatever it is. like At some point point, you become an expert. Let's call it 10,000 hours. And now you've got to continue off of that. So it's just a funny thing that I see when I talk with people that are looking to get into this profession.
00:28:13
Speaker
Thank you for listening to this episode. This would not be possible without sponsorship of Sarah Health. Sarah is the relationship operating system for physical therapy practices, driving better patient outcomes, improved arrival rate, and improved financial margins. If you'd like to learn more, check them out at Sarah, S-A-R-A health.com. sarahhealth.com. And if you'd be interested in advertising with us and helping us produce even more great stories, please let us know at steven at sarahhealth.com. Now, back to the episode.
00:28:50
Speaker
you're just You're bringing back a lot of good memories, right? ah for For me, especially my core, I guess, project that I did over and over and over again was a lot of supply chain negotiation during M&A and divestiture events. Oh, yeah. And so, yeah, the first project was, it was rough. I'm very grateful to have some amazing mentors and then senior managers and partners that helped help me quite a bit.
00:29:16
Speaker
But by the time, like, number three came around, like, I've seen this before, right? And so when we did the eBay and PayPal divestiture, like I was number three or four of that same project that I had done.
00:29:29
Speaker
And was able to have that that level of expertise and be able to say, yeah, no, like here's what SAP is probably going to do based on what I've seen, like in these other negotiations. So like, here's what we should expect. Here's the model. Here's how we're going go about it. They're going to be one of the toughest to negotiate with. Let's just like know that ahead of time and to be able to have that expertise, which to your point, because I'd seen it three or four times, I'd seen it infinitely more times than the group I was working with who had seen it. yeah Right. Yes. Yes. they' Like, I don't know. um And I think that. That goes back to your, your rose on like, it's, it's hard work and it's challenging. And I believe in probably in bias, right? that No, not probably. I'm a hundred percent biased, but
00:30:18
Speaker
it was that really hard work that was extremely challenging that allows you to learn at a pace that you may have never experienced before. And so for the folks, again, speaking from my own experience, sounds like you're echoing the the same sentiment. um If you want to learn at an absolute, just insane clip, consulting is a great place to do that at.
00:30:43
Speaker
Like if you want to, be you can be comfortable with hey no longer are patients going to be walking in the door and you are going to be the expert every single day it's going to be almost the exact opposite right you got to be comfortable flipping it and be like yeah i don't know much uh no don't say that uh hey fake it till you make it yeah fake till you make it uh don't be like and i won't name it um But in that same project, I was a consultant at the time reporting to a senior consultant and he leads off the call with, and we, you I built some good relationships.
00:31:21
Speaker
Thank goodness. And he's just, Hey, it's, it's, you know, day 10 at the the firm and i'm I'm really excited to, to be able to get in.
Growth and Mentorship in Consulting
00:31:28
Speaker
And was just like, Oh no, Oh no. yeah I'm about it. and I looked at it. I was like,
00:31:34
Speaker
Man, I'm about to get a call from like our our lead here. I'd imagine less than five minutes after this call gets over, he's like, no, no way. That's not going to happen. We're just waiting. Yeah, sure enough, like 3.30, boom. here Here it comes to you walk ah walk him off the cliff. but ah Yeah. yeah Exactly. you you it is um It's the most challenging and and then rewarding thing for me. I just i find it fun and tough all the same time. It's great.
00:32:05
Speaker
Oh, it's, it is. Well, I want transition into, know, you mentioned you, you probably are. And based on what I've seen, I'd say you feel even more secure in the first PT to hit that PMD status yeah within the the big four. um And that's a heck of an achievement. That is an absolute monster achievement. Thank you.
00:32:28
Speaker
Yeah. but I don't want to assume that it is your proudest one that you've made with within your career. So I'd say, what, what is that, know, what is that moment or or that achievement that you are are really super proud of in your, your career today, right? It's not over. So yeah yeah you we can edit this in the future. to show yeah, totally. Exactly.
00:32:51
Speaker
So professionally, um, I would say that the thing that I'm the most proud of is not the achievement of managing director, not, not the achievement of a, of a win of a big project or, you know, back when I worked as the chief clinical officer of having a, you know, a doctor clinic do really well, or even as a PT, a patient, you know, exceeding their goals and walking out pain-free, you know, whatever. um
00:33:23
Speaker
But it has occurred in the last few years, which is I made the conscious decision to put my entire effort into something. And i found that, um you know, I can almost become, and I don't, I don't mean to, you know, I hope there's no hubris in this statement, but i my potential is limitless.
00:33:46
Speaker
When you put all that you have and all your, you know, kind of head down, I'm going to dig into something. that has been fun because I received the ah the reward, the outcome of of managing director or winning a project, but it was only because of the means that I that i took to get to those ends that I am going to put it all in.
00:34:15
Speaker
And by putting it all in I got something out, but that process was fun to to do that. And that's what I'm most proud of that I was able to to put that kind of energy into something um mentally and physically and and have the outcome that we did.
00:34:31
Speaker
And I will say, sounds like based on your experience and mine, ah consulting is a great place to do that. Like if you want to take a big risk on yourself, it is a fantastic, fantastic place to do that because there's always going to be opportunity there. And if you can, to your you know earlier point, make a business case and and go for it, you're going to get a pretty long leash to to be able to go improve that.
00:34:57
Speaker
as well as a soft landing, should it not work out the the way that that you thought? And we had stuff that, you know, I was lucky enough to be involved in that didn't quite go how we were were hoping.
00:35:10
Speaker
And yeah it's it's not the end, right? As long as you can show good learning, at least my experience at Deloitte, and this is not meant to be a Deloitte commercial, but no i had a great experience, right? Yeah.
00:35:24
Speaker
But I knew what it was going into it. i knew it was going to be a lot of hard work, a lot of travel, which I saw as a pro, not as a con. And you're going to get in rooms where you get absolutely grilled. And but then you have that like you have that muscle memory and it just – it's It's not scary that that next or as scary, at at least that second, third, 52nd, 53rd time.
00:35:54
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think between consulting and small business ownership. You can put in as much as you want to it.
00:36:06
Speaker
And it'll always take more. You wanna put in 50 hours, you put in 50. You wanna put in 90 hours, you put in 90. It doesn't matter, it'll always take it. There's always work to do. And so it's not so much do you need to work harder, but do you need to work smarter?
00:36:22
Speaker
um And then sometimes it's you need to work harder. and i And I'm not saying you have to work 80 hours a week to make anything work, but if you want to, it'll take it. There's always more research to do. There's always more information that you can get out to clients or to your teams or whatever.
00:36:37
Speaker
believe me, there's enough. there's There's always one thing to research a little bit further, right? There's always another way to analyze something, another way to slice it, another way to to go into it. Absolutely.
00:36:50
Speaker
A hundred percent. And, you know, as someone who has been there, exited, and I'm not saying there's a chance I won't come back one day, but I really did enjoy it. It is heck of a lot of fun working with super smart people yeah all day, every day. Yes. that We are fortunate.
00:37:07
Speaker
Oh, extremely. Right. we are We are very fortunate. If you have not had the chance to work with some of the, especially the analysts consultants, right. That, that um you now get to work with on a daily basis. It's, it's incredible.
00:37:22
Speaker
These young professionals walk circles around me and in things, the way they think and the things they do. um And I'm incredibly bullish on where we can go in our firm and based on based on some of the quality of the people that I see that are at all levels of of our firm.
00:37:45
Speaker
Yeah. And man, a lot of lot of really good ah pieces here. And I think hopefully at this point for for folks that are listening that are even considering it, like have a conversation, right? Reach out.
00:37:59
Speaker
You know what? Let's give some tactical advice here because I get this too. Yeah. If someone's going to reach out to you, right? And I have some ideas here, but again, I'm going hold it. If someone one reach out reaches out to you, I would imagine the, hey, I'd like to learn more about consulting. Can we talk? Yes.
00:38:19
Speaker
Oh, man. ah Yeah. like Yes, but also no. Like, we can't. Yeah. yeah um How, if you had to design a playbook, right, or a set of simple steps as folks think about how to start ne networking within some consulting firms to learn more, which, by the way, you have to do, like, you have to do it, right? Your network is your net worth is not only applicable in broader life, but I think it's especially pertinent framework for consulting. So yes, yeah. Well, if you you give give the keys to the kingdom, right?
Advice for Transitioning to Consulting Roles
00:38:56
Speaker
How would you how would you advise folks that are looking to to network in?
00:39:01
Speaker
So I'm going to go, ah you know tactical and strategic and in and where we are. So very tactically, your resume cannot be a physical therapist CV. No one in consulting cares that you know how to manage total knee arthroplasties.
00:39:16
Speaker
Okay. Or that you have, you know, treated this many people or that you've done these things in clinical, like they just, they don't know what to do with that. So in general, your CV, your resume has to, i like to say, if all applicants were apples, you can't look like a piece of bacon.
00:39:41
Speaker
It's still a food. You're still a human, but you're not the same. You have to do your level best to get your resume to look like an apple. And so when you think about things like, let's say you're in a small business in your resume, you want it to talk about, not that you have, you're the clinic director, but that in this role, you have, um, done human capital management of this many people that you have, um,
00:40:09
Speaker
that you have done, um that you have helped ah the revenue um increases of 15% over the last two years, that you have stimulated a marketing and sales plan that has grown XYZ, something like that, because that means that you've got a skill that our clients often need help with.
00:40:32
Speaker
So your resume needs to read, your CV needs to read like you are someone more in the business world than in the clinical world. And they're going to see that you're a physical therapist. They're going to see that you have a doctor and PT, that you've done these things and those things. But being a certified strength and conditioning specialist doesn't help you.
00:40:52
Speaker
I promise you, it doesn't help you in this world. I have it. I've never used it. It doesn't help me. um The second thing is that when you... you you In order to more look like an apple, you have to have something they need.
00:41:06
Speaker
So for example, I talked earlier about the guy who's a certified scrum master. That is something that we need in consulting. I have another physical therapist at Deloitte that we've hired who has an MBA, an executive MBA.
00:41:18
Speaker
And his MBA work was in business management. And and he can he talk he can talk a story that people understand. um I've seen ah physical therapists that, or or anybody that have like,
00:41:34
Speaker
coding background, maybe they understand, you know, SAS or SQL or Python, or they've started to dabble in cloud technologies, AWS or Google Cloud or something.
00:41:45
Speaker
These types of skill sets are things that you have to be able to have. So they open the door. Otherwise they're going to look and be like, okay, great. You're a physical therapist. I don't know what to do with you.
00:41:58
Speaker
I don't know how to parlay that physical therapy into consulting or into business. I would put that for almost any line, any profession that is outside of like the core physical therapy profession.
00:42:10
Speaker
If you're looking to to make a leap anywhere in there. Um, And so so very tactically, like that's the the the resume has to change. And then that that strategic piece of you've got to get more in there, which means you have to put in some effort before you were to apply to come to something. you have to get at some sort of certification, get an MBA, get something that is extra and different, so that different from physical therapy, but not different from the people that firms like Deloitte or, you know, other competitors of ours, uh, see on every resume every day.
00:42:46
Speaker
I like that. And there's, there's a couple ways that I think about that is, you know, show the projects, not your clinic metrics, like, right. Like, okay.
00:42:57
Speaker
That's fantastic that you, your clinic was doing a thousand evals a month. yeah that That's great. But i think, I'd be more, if I was hiring, right? If I'm a manager trying to staff my team, I see them like, oh, okay. But like, did it have 1200 before you got there? Like i know your point I don't know what to do with that. But now if you say, yes I learned enough SQL to pull our outcomes data to learn that we do really well at knees. And then I organized the sales and marketing program to directly target those referral sources. and saw our referral source, like our referral volume increased by 15% and that equated to X much extra margin. Even if you're not exactly sure like exactly what that that number is, like even that thought process
00:43:46
Speaker
um saw a thing, did some additional research, implemented a change, saw this as a result, even if the result isn't great, like, hey, saw the result that was 1% improvement and likely due to XYZ if I was to do it differently. yeah All of that, I'm like, oh, I can work with that.
00:44:04
Speaker
That yes makes a ton of sense to me. Totally love that that. That's a perfect example for people to think about. um Because it's it's just goingnna it's just going to get you in that door.
00:44:16
Speaker
And that's the most important thing. you have to we We have to know what to do with you. um I was fortunate enough, and I don't have any of that. I'm not a coder. i didn't know cloud technologies. I don't have an MBA. don't even have a bachelor's degree.
00:44:28
Speaker
um But... But what I had done through my career is I had been fortunate enough to been published 20 times in peer reviewed journals and written book chapters and lectured around the world on physical therapy and business management. um I was the chair of an institutional ah review board. Those things were able to get pulled into some areas that we do at Deloitte to help Navy medicine and and so on. So it like that was my hook.
00:44:58
Speaker
And that worked for me, but that took 15 years of of work to get there. And if you have that, that can be your door opener. But by God, your resume needs to read that way.
00:45:10
Speaker
I guess it's really important. And yeah there's a little bit, especially for the younger crowd there to to that's it's kind of between the tea leaves a little bit, which is take that extra project on, like take that extra project on. Right. Like, hey, my clinic's looking for somebody to, you know,
00:45:26
Speaker
pilot this this new marketing outreach program. Yeah. Take it and own it, right? Like if you do that and you have ownership of it and you can talk about it it's just gonna make that that process way, way easier for you. And you can cir you can at least like short, sets it's not even a shortcut, just like you're yeah just pushing work further upstream to to get it done. But I think that's extremely valuable insight and advice to folks. and And then I know from my experience running the campus recruiting team for a couple of years at Kansas State, as well being part of the UCLA Anderson MBA recruiting program, like get that gold star of a PMD referral on your application before you even send it back, right? Like that is that is key. That is so key. is what Because if i had if I had to guess, I haven't even looked at the, ah you know, the the, I guess application process, but i had I'd bet if you went there today,
00:46:34
Speaker
there is a box for referred by or something like that. And yeah not that it has to be a PMD necessarily, or you know partner, principal, director, sorry. The acronyms come back. The late terms, yes, they do. um yeah It helps a heck of a lot. it it wait It does. And I'll tell you probably more impactfully what that you know partner, principal, and managing director is going to do is they're actually going to go behind the scenes to just at least tell someone, look, I can't influence, like I can't hire someone that is, you know, friend, family or whatever. i can't, it's not, not a nepotism thing, but we're gonna say look, I've talked to Jane and she's phenomenal.
00:47:18
Speaker
And I think you should talk to her because I think she might be able to help us in this area. done. Right. And it's that, that thing that happens, but I tell you, like, I can't do that personally. And the people I know at my level can't do that unless they know what to do with you.
00:47:36
Speaker
And feel comfortable sticking your neck out a little bit, right? Like, well yeah you only have so much leadership capital, right. That, that you can expend. And so I can just make it easy on them. but It's just kind of funny. It's like,
00:47:49
Speaker
as a PT, you make it so easy for your patients to be able to make a behavior change. Like take that same thought process of like, Oh, how can I make this just stupid, simple for someone to help me out?
00:48:02
Speaker
Right. And if you think of it that way, it's like, Oh, okay. Well, What are their next steps going to have to be? oh they're going to have to go talk to h r likely or, you know, be a part of some sort of hiring group, even if it's just an email or a call. And so if I can give them that person what they need to be able to make it that much simpler, then.
00:48:20
Speaker
It kind of goes back to what we're talking about, the whole theme of of this conversation around, you know it's something else first, PT second. very valuable piece, right? Totally. that Very valuable perspective and skill set. And then show how you've done the things and also make it easy for someone to be able to be a champion.
00:48:43
Speaker
Absolutely. Agreed. That's a nice summary. Well, I've been writing fever. like you've done this before So, okay, my my my last question, and this is definitely my favorite one. and If you had a magic wand and could change one thing about PT, what would it be?
Challenges and Opportunities in Physical Therapy
00:49:07
Speaker
Oh, gosh. um Is the American Physical Therapy Association going to watch this? No, and not against them. Nothing against them. um
00:49:17
Speaker
I actually think we are too spread. I think we have too many. we We do not have the ability to define who we are as a profession very well because we are doing so many things.
00:49:33
Speaker
We are a little bit of something to everybody. right So we do pediatrics, we do neuro, we do um skilled nursing, we do inpatient hospital, we do sports medicine, orthopedics.
00:49:45
Speaker
um i'm I'm forgetting things. right we We do all these different areas. And it's great. It's wonderful that we do all these different things. um But as a result, what physical therapists do in inpatient rehab, or like sorry, just inpatient, just like major med surgical inpatient, right? Versus what a ah sports medicine physical therapist does are are two worlds apart.
00:50:11
Speaker
Granted, you're still trying to improve movement. You're trying to get people back to their life. I get it. But what happens is we we lose a little bit of who we are. In a hospital setting, we're almost a paraprofessional, right? The physician tells us what to do and we do that thing. In in an outpatient setting, we want to be that primary care, that that direct access. We're going to be able to make the decision for musculoskeletal conditions, neuromusculoskeletal conditions, and we're going to you know be able to refer when we need to.
00:50:41
Speaker
they're They're just too far. And so I think we actually need to bifurcate or cut. And i would actually, and this is my bias because I was an outpatient orthopedic sports and I'm an SES.
00:50:56
Speaker
that' cs i would I would cut the most of the inpatient stuff. um I think we've bled far over with occupational therapy. um I think we can probably give some of that work to occupational therapy, whether it's pediatrics or some of the more inpatient skilled nursing acute rehab work.
00:51:19
Speaker
And I think we can shift more toward um the outpatient setting more towards the advanced rehab setting, um whether it be pediatrics, neuro, ortho sports.
00:51:34
Speaker
um I think, i think we're just going to be, we're going to be better off as a profession because we'll be able to define who we are. And our biggest problem in my mind is that we are still trying to work out of this pair of professional mold.
00:51:51
Speaker
We're still trying to define ourselves as the primary, care clinician for neuromusculoskeletal conditions. We're still trying to get direct access and allow physicians and patients to say that we know what we're doing. We're still trying to get the patient out on the street that came to you and you told them what was wrong with them with their lower back. And you know that you can help them. And a week later they call you and they say, yeah I went to my physician and he said, I needed to take a prednisone dose pack and rest for two weeks and I'd be better.
00:52:25
Speaker
But who won that? The physician, because the physician is still that head of healthcare care delivery. And I think until we become more unique in what we do, don't know that we're going to be able to make the kind of progress that we want to make in the time that we want to make that.
00:52:47
Speaker
I really like that answer. i like so sorry Sorry for everybody on the other side that it I love you. i i just That's just what I would do. Well, i think we see it all the time, right? Where we have customers that have PTs and OTs in the same clinic, right? And it it does breed this, like,
00:53:07
Speaker
what are you, this lack of identity, right? And maybe if you told me, hey, that is a main driver of payment issues that that we see, i would 100% believe it, right? Because like, what are you paying for, right? It actually goes back to our earlier conversation around like, hey, like showing how like I can solve your problem. Well, you can do that at ah at a personal level, and I think PTs are really good at doing it at a personal level, but as at a professional, like systemic level,
00:53:38
Speaker
What does PT do? Like, well, we can do everything. It's like, whoa, like that's, like I got to have a better way to think about this. Whereas like, okay, I'm Blue Cross Blue Shield and i pay an ortho to do, like this ortho only does total knees and maybe a couple of total knees, right? But like, that's all she does is total knees. And I know that. And I know this ortho group specializes in this thing. Whereas if you have an outpatient PT department, or especially when I think of the groups we work with, in particular, the physical FYZ, see, like, holy cow, the, they, they so specialize in balance and in movement disorders. yeah They do a fantastic job. stories coming out of those, those clinics are amazing, but you could all argue like,
00:54:29
Speaker
hey, the the groups that are doing that as well as you know helping a 15-year-old with their ACL recovery, like it's hard for folks to like even be able to fully grasp, like if you do everything, then what do I do if I have a specific issue?
00:54:46
Speaker
right like yeah yeah And that's what people have is specific issues that they want addressed. um So yeah, it's almost just like if you do everything, you actually do nothing. um and And that can...
00:54:58
Speaker
I really like that answer because I think it gets to the heart of the the some of the core, maybe even the core issue of of why PT has trouble getting paid for the value they deliver because like, well, what is that?
00:55:16
Speaker
Right. What is that? It's like, well, depends. Yeah. Like, well, it depends. Like even as a consultant, like we know that's not a great answer. Right. And well we're super good at saying that though. Yeah.
00:55:29
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. I mean, you know, there, one of my, got a book around good to greatest somewhere around here. Oh, uh, by Jim Collins is right there on on my bookshelf. Yeah. Um, yeah, down over there. Um, but good to great, even the hedgehog concept, right. Be, be best in the world at one thing.
00:55:48
Speaker
And i would say, you know, when Hedgehog, We're not there as a profession in physical therapy. And I just can't, I don't know that I see a path that we will be when we're this broad, just as a profession, not just talking about an individual business. I'm just talking about the profession.
00:56:08
Speaker
And so you kind of have to, to have to choose in my mind as to what we're going to do. um You know, I can't tell you how many times I, when I worked inpatient, which I did for a little while and and I, I like would painstakingly document that I, i ambulated, you know, with contact guard assist, 250 feet, you know, we rested three minutes. We did sit to stand transfers times 10. And then we ambulated 250 feet back with, you know, contact guard assistance times two, right? Write that down. and And then I come in the next morning and the overnight nursing staff would say, we walked to the cafeteria, you know, we had a, a, an ice cream and then we walked back and then I put them in the chair and I'm like,
00:56:52
Speaker
What? But see, we, but I said you couldn't walk farther than 250 feet. And so then it's kind of like, was that skilled? Was what I did skilled if, if a certified nursing assistant came in and like just did their own thing that was different or better or more or whatever than, than what I did.
00:57:13
Speaker
and And I think that's the that's that difficult part. And so then you get the physician who's reading that and says, well, and well why are we doing the physical therapy that way when they're just walking it? And then that permeates into the rest of what they do and where we so we sit as a profession.
00:57:32
Speaker
And I tell you what I would put 90% of the outpatient orthopedic sports physical therapists as to be a better diagnoser than 90% of the physicians out there, whether your primary care, orthopedic surgery, truly, I don't care.
00:57:51
Speaker
I just think we're better at it because I think we look at more than a picture, you know, an MRI or an X-ray or whatever. We're just better at it, but we're not very good at being the person to diagnose.
00:58:06
Speaker
And then our diagnoses get kind of loved because it's like, you know, the person has some random thing as opposed to a medical diagnosis that no one understands outside of physical therapy. So I digress. ah You're, and we just got done with, with private practice section, right? So okay yeah big big conference conference. um had dinner with ah a clinic owner and it's it's just resonated with me and what he says like look i i don't need 40 minutes to eval you like i can watch how you fill out your forms in the waiting room and how you walked and sat down in the chair how you waited if you were in pain if you score like i can see all that and then i can see as you're walking back to me like
00:58:53
Speaker
I'm 95% of the way there within 10 minutes. um And i I wonder if part of this is is driven by what the system has in place of like an eval equals 40 to 60 minutes. like god why does it what is it Like, why does it have to be that way? And I know some of the things that we're doing as far as collecting data from the patient in between visits and then sort of seeing that an AI generated summary, right? Like what if your subjective portion is just done?
00:59:26
Speaker
Like it's done because the patient has chronologically logged the key data points that you want in between the visit. Does it even need to be a 30 minute, a 40 minute, deal will you name the time increment yeah of 10, right? Does it need to be that anymore? And like is, and this is me completely just shooting off the hip, but like, are the longer visits actually at a detriment to the profession?
00:59:55
Speaker
um Well, I think unless there's a guy here that that's in in the D.C. area um that's charging $250 a session, right? That's not eval. That's a session.
01:00:09
Speaker
um I don't know. Maybe he needs a longer visit because he's charging $250 cash. But I think if we're getting paid $19.54 for manual therapy and you know seventeen dollars for ah and reevaluation Gosh, it's hard to do for half an hour.
01:00:27
Speaker
it's it's hard to It's hard to make any money um and and actually demonstrate that level of value. but yeah Yeah, you're entirely correct. And i yeah speaking very naively, but like I would imagine that an ortho doing a consult doesn't it need to spend eight minutes on anything.
01:00:50
Speaker
and ah Just a guess. Just a guess. No, they don't. Yeah, you've been to them. You know that. I have. Yeah, I've been to them for labrum repair, ACL meniscus repair. So, you know, as I said a frustrated patient, which is why I started the the company. But by the way, in my world, guess what ah code they're charging for that? and and how how much they're getting paid and whether that service is actually justified at ah at a high complexity. But I digress.
01:01:20
Speaker
for For a follow-up conversation, I'm okay Dr. Barton, I just want to say thank you. Thanks, Steve. As a quick recap, and I'm probably going to miss a few things, but for those that are interested in going into consulting or at least exploring, think you gave multiple really good insights, but just tactically, like,
01:01:44
Speaker
how think of it from the terms of who you're talking to and have it be easy to be their champion. And how that happens is i think your your analogy, the apples to bacon is, and I know I'd pick the bacon, but like it's really, really good in that if if I'm going to make an apple pie, saying your bacon isn't isn't super helpful. like, and like yeah you I don't know. like I'm not Gordon Ramsay. I don't know how I can make this all work. Right. And so think of how to be at least an apple with a better shine to it. Right. Yeah. And think of it that way.
Encouragement for Professional Exploration
01:02:16
Speaker
um
01:02:17
Speaker
knowing that the networking and and having someone who's going to put a gold star on your resume is incredibly important. But again, with the foundational understanding that I need to make it easy on on them to do so. And before that, even just doing some of your own research around, okay, who do I want to serve as a client? Because that's going to be a major determinant of what part of the consulting industry that I target to. And I really, i really like your answer to the my favorite question, the ah the the magic wand. And, and yeah, there's this identity crisis that the profession is is suffering from. And I think it's, it's almost like this rot, right, that spreads and has all these other symptoms that pop up. But it's potentially one of if not the like core issue that that needs to be solved. So I just want to say thank you very much for for your time. i know how much it means for you to dedicate this much to the listeners. And i hope for the next time you get your inbox blown up, you could say, hey, watch this yeah and and get some you some high ah ah ROI from it and gain some hours back while also delivering things. a lot of really good information to folks. Um, asynchronously. Wow. Like who to guess, right? here I love it You're, you're delivering care asynchronously. So, so there you go. Just a career care versus clinical. Exactly. Exactly. We need it. We all need it.
01:03:52
Speaker
That we do, that we do. Uh, any parting words before I, uh, cut us off? Thanks for what you're doing, Steven. Um, we, uh, We are more as a individually and as a profession, physical therapists, we are more than we think we are.
01:04:09
Speaker
And if you look into yourself and if you examine, I guess your potential and think about broadly what you can do, i just think that the sky is limitless for all of us. And the more we get physical therapists out in different areas of the world,
01:04:32
Speaker
the better off our overall profession is going to be. um the the better um you know The more people are going to think of us as being, um I guess, a force to be reckoned with in in the business world, in the consulting world, in hospital management and whatever.
01:04:51
Speaker
um But I think we do a pretty good job of limiting ourselves. think we do a pretty good job of saying, this is what I know and this is what I'm good at and that's it. And I would just encourage you to not.
01:05:03
Speaker
Let's let's end on that as a profession that, yeah, ah PT way more than than you likely think you are, you know, down to the the personal level. And if you want to be the change in the world, you need to open it up open it up others eyes and and let them see it. So with that, absolutely i want to say thank you so much for being on. Thanks, Stephen. Thanks for having me. Look forward to next time.
01:05:28
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for listening to another episode of The Disruptors. I hope that you were able to take one or two things away that you can apply immediately to your own innovation journey. As always, I'm your host, Stephen Cohen, sponsored by Sarah Health.
01:05:42
Speaker
Let's keep moving.