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Maggie Henjum, Therapy Partners Inc. and Motion LLC
35 Plays1 year ago
In this episode, Steven sits down with Maggie Henjum, PT, DPT, OCS, FAAOMPT the Owner/CEO of Therapy Partners Inc. and the Owner/CEO of Motion LLC.
Learn more about SaRA Health:
https://www.sarahealth.com/
Check out Therapy Partners Inc. and Motion LLC:
https://therapypartners.com/
https://motionclinics.org/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to The Disruptors Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of The Disruptors, where we're arming you with the tools you need to innovate within the physical therapy space by highlighting those who have come before you. I'm your host, Stephen Cohen. Now let's get into it. Welcome to The Disruptors with the Capital PT podcast, where we are going to highlight the amazing journeys of people that have disrupted for the better, the physical therapy industry,
00:00:27
Speaker
how they got there, what they did in order to make innovation in this area more accessible to everyone.
Guest Introduction: Dr. Maggie Hindrum
00:00:35
Speaker
On today's first episode, I am so blessed to be joined by Dr. Maggie Hindrum. So Dr. Maggie Hindrum is both a PT practice owner and CEO of a managed service organizations that helps 25 companies like Resilient PT and Vagrant Movement, treat more patients more profitably by aggregating the services so that clinicians can be clinicians.
00:01:01
Speaker
Dr. Hengem graduated from University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire with her BS in Kinesiology. She then earned her doctorate at the University of Colorado. And because school didn't seem hard enough, she became the APTA Student Special Interest Group President. Additionally, she completed a postdoctoral fellowship in manual therapy
00:01:20
Speaker
through evidence in motion. She's been an adjunct faculty at South College and the University of Minnesota while working at Tria Orthopedic Center, Viverant, and now Motion and Therapy Partners. And in her spare time today, she works for USA Ski and Snowboard.
Personal Life and Motivations
00:01:39
Speaker
On a more personal front, she lives in Minneapolis, Minnesota with her wife and son, is a fun haver and appreciates good Portuguese wine as well as I'm sure does not discriminate against other varieties and locations. Dr. Hingem's impressive career shows a desire to help people. And that has been my experience in all of our interactions. A trait I hope all of us listening to watching, including myself, learn how to activate one degree butter as a part of this conversation today.
00:02:07
Speaker
Dr. Hindjem, you're a disruptor and the most positive since. Thank you for being on the show and welcome. Thanks for having me. It's been really fun to get
Journey in Physical Therapy
00:02:16
Speaker
to know you. So it's going to be fun to have a conversation about healthcare, my favorite topic.
00:02:21
Speaker
Might as well, might as well. So my first question I wanna start with is how did you get here, right? And feel free to skip over if there's things that don't help with the journey and then go quickly. I know a bit of the story from our mutual friend, Matt Kruger, and how you broke out on your own, but I would love to hear your version and how you got here.
00:02:49
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Absolutely. So as you shared, I came out of Colorado, and Colorado was a very fun state for PT. I came out at a time where private practice was just rampant, and there was a private practice on every corner. And I don't know, I just felt super jazzy about the career, I think as all new grads do. So I worked at a private practice, and it was fun. I got to work out after hours, and I was a part of the community, and taping ankles for somebody that just walked in. It was just like a really fun little family.
00:03:19
Speaker
I moved back to minnesota as that's where i'm from and i just couldn't find that same vibrancy of a clinic and company and i thought it was my education deficit so i was like you know i'm gonna go back for a fellowship i want to learn more i was just hungry for knowledge and growth and.
00:03:36
Speaker
So I went back and did that residency fellowship and came out of that and thought, gosh, during that process kind of wrote down, what am I looking for? What's my perfect job? Because we're all choosing, there's no perfect, there's always a negotiation. And so knowing your own personal wants, needs, and interests was a super good process for me to go through. And so I did that through fellowship, just kind of, again, just journaling and
00:04:01
Speaker
at my girlfriend at the time, my wife was like, you know, this looks like a business plan. It was like 50 pages. It was like very
Creating Motion Clinic
00:04:08
Speaker
robust. It was, you know, what I wanted, mission values, you know, the type of care I like delivering, you know, education focus, community inclusive, like all the little pieces of my best moments at that previous job. And so I was like, oh, maybe you're right. So I decided to open Motion in 2016, just because I wasn't able to really find the
00:04:29
Speaker
the culture I was looking for. I'm sure it was out there. No negatives against anything that happened at that time. I just wasn't really hitting that nail on that. I started motion. In 2016, again, it's an intimidating landscape of how do I be an inclusive provider that accepts insurance, that allows all people to walk through my door? How do I create structures and systems to be able to support education,
00:04:57
Speaker
and do all of the things I really wanted in my business plan that were attached to our mission. I struggled to find the ability to do that on my own. Therapy Partners was an existing company since the early 2000s, late 90s. It was this beautiful landscape of it took away all the stuff I knew nothing about. It just took everybody together and said, hey, we'll take care of all the stuff that does not get you out of bed in the morning, but potentially the insurance,
00:05:23
Speaker
the EMR, the billing, revenue segment, all the stuff.
Joining Therapy Partners
00:05:27
Speaker
Hit the IT, security, the things that just embed the background that allow us to do the work that we want it to do. I joined Therapy Partners in 2016. As the Therapy Partners owners were starting to age out and COVID happened, I think we were all exhausted with
00:05:44
Speaker
with just working during COVID. And so I went to the owners and said, what are you guys going to do? If I had the option today, I may retire as well. And they were looking to retire and succeed. And so I stepped into that role to be able to protect the mission of what they really set off to do, which is taking small practices that are value-based practices that really deliver high excellent care.
00:06:09
Speaker
and giving them the services they wouldn't otherwise be able to obtain to be able to maintain autonomy and independence and focus on the things that we wake up to focus on, which is helping patients. And so now I live in the duality of those roles. I live as a provider, as a clinic owner, and I live in the therapy partner's ecosystem as well to try to blend all of that together. So that's my story. Did that capture it? I think it did. I think it did.
00:06:37
Speaker
I think the math, you know, I guess.
00:06:43
Speaker
event, right? So I believe you're treating one of his family members and then went and shadowed him for for a day or something like that. And that stuck with him as something super impressive. And so that, yeah, he still remembers that. Oh, I love that. No, we have such a cool I love about health care is I think we have the coolest community in the world. You know, like I would not want to go to a banker's association dinner. I love. I love nothing against bankers, but I love health care.
00:07:11
Speaker
We all are, I think we're the only profession that goes to a conference and we're there from seven till six and we're learning. And then when we go out to dinner after, we're talking more about learning and what we can do to help people and what we can do to create an evolution change around making healthcare about people again. And so I love getting out in the community and meeting people. That's like my favorite thing.
00:07:38
Speaker
I think there's definitely a difference in healthcare, but I think there's even a difference with PT within healthcare. Physical therapy in particular is some of the most non
00:07:51
Speaker
call it like intra or inter-brand competitive that you see anywhere, right? It's amazing, especially in the private practice world. And there's a story that I think you'll love, which we onboarded a practice in West Virginia and they're really, really excited. And I'm walking out with the owner, Natalie, and she points at another PT group's sign, because it's right where their clinic locations is,
00:08:21
Speaker
And like, Hey, if this goes well for us, I'll introduce you to the owner of that. Uh, I know they've had some, some pits and stops with, with what they're using. So I'll just, you know, let's see if this works and it'll just do that. Yeah.
Collaborative Community in PT
00:08:34
Speaker
What do you mean? Don't you compete against each other? No, there's so many more patients to be seen that you can't look at this in a scarcity mindset because you're going to end up doing things that ultimately harm access to the patients.
00:08:50
Speaker
a lot of other negative things, right? Totally. What's better for everyone is better for everyone. I think most people have that mindset. That's a fun place to live. I would agree entirely. It's definitely through lived experiences that I have been convinced that PT is even more different in a positive way than healthcare and healthcare is different than other industries. Yeah, I agree.
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. So what we haven't talked about yet is why PT? So why physical therapy? So start out in kinesiology, right? Did you always want to go into PT from the time you entered college? When was that? I want to be a physical therapist. You know, I like I remember trying to answer that question on applications and being kind of stunned by it because I think I've always been a person where I
00:09:47
Speaker
Identify what I want before what it looks like. Does that make sense? So meaning I really liked people. I'm obviously an extrovert. I love people. I'm a puppy. So I wanted to spend a lot of time with people. I wasn't going to be happy behind the desk. I loved health and wellness. I loved movement. I loved relationship development and PT just kind of hit all of those things. Right. And so I started taking classes that interested me more than taking classes for a profession that I wanted to do.
00:10:15
Speaker
Um, and it just kind of landed into the kinesiology where you're like, Oh, I'm loving this. I love movement. Um, I'm, you know, athlete at heart. And I think it's everybody's story that started off in our world. We, we like to move like people. We want to help people move. Uh, and those just kind of sink and ease together. And, and I wish it was this like glamorous, you know, the skies opened and I walked in and saw a PT clinic that had everything I needed.
00:10:41
Speaker
It really wasn't I just I like what I like and I was taking what I enjoyed and identifying variables of what made me the best person and the happiest human and I kind of just landscaped those into a profession, which is not a sexy story, but I think it's a real one and I I think you know a lot of I just I spoke at a high school and
00:11:00
Speaker
And there's freshmen that are like, how'd you know you wanted to be a physical therapist? I was like, I didn't. I went to Eau Claire because it was sunny. It was like a nice day. I was like, this looks fun. So I think there's a lot of pressure around my two and a half year old. Like, what are you going to be when you grow up? He's like, I don't know.
00:11:19
Speaker
I just want a popsicle. I think the more focus on your relationship with work and your relationship with your passions and how to kind of cinch that together into a profession is, I don't know, maybe that's my bias because that's my journey, but I think that's been my experience. I think that makes a lot of sense, right? Instead of identifying with the
00:11:46
Speaker
to use maybe some younger terminology the vibe right of a specific profession or you know what it entails it's more of I like these five or six things now where does this Venn diagram best point me to it what are the things that are in that Venn diagram that are really
00:12:06
Speaker
really, really powerful, right? And yes, love helping people with movement relationships, right, you get into likely something in any of their physical therapy, maybe you could have had a career in a almost one of the
00:12:21
Speaker
I like to call it like, you know, tactical athlete wellness. So thinking of even like firefighters, police officers, right, which would still be in a branch of physical therapy. Like there could be a more higher performance, but I wanted to help people, right? It could have taken you anywhere, but you knew, okay, it's got to be movement related. It's got to get me out from behind a desk and it's got to be something where I can build a relationship with somebody, right?
00:12:48
Speaker
And when you put that Venn diagram together, it really shrinks your sort of the universe for you.
Aligning Career with Personal Values
00:12:56
Speaker
But that's a blessing, not a curse, right? Where, okay, awesome. Now don't worry about analysis paralysis. With all this, there's like three things that I really like. And now I just have to pick one. And picking one out of three is much, much easier than one out of 3 million, right? Much, much easier. Julie Whitman, who's like a leader in our field, I love her as a human.
00:13:18
Speaker
always gives the best advice and I believe that same thing about choosing a profession and choosing your employer or starting your own practice etc whatever that looks like is you know I think as PTs we focus a lot on the outcome like where do we want to get and her biggest advice was focus on how you feel during the journey and identify those variables
00:13:41
Speaker
Because, you know, once you start like experiencing in your own emotions, like, Oh, you know, I feel really healthy and happy. This is my best self when x and, and that was really powerful for me. So I started slowing down to be able to do that and identifying, you know, like, similar to how you choose your spouse, right? Like,
00:14:00
Speaker
they're a part of my best self looks like X. Maybe that person isn't exactly what I thought they were going to be, but it is a very healthy experience as we can share life together. That's the same way as a profession and an employer. Talking through that with somebody that's been through that was really helpful for me at a really young age. That's amazing advice. Not my advice to make that very clear.
00:14:26
Speaker
We'll make sure to cite our sources. We'll make sure to cite our sources. I appreciate that very much. Document really how you feel during the journey and not a sole focus on the outcome. That's sage advice from Julie.
00:14:50
Speaker
And it's, it's, it's held true for me as well, right? Like, okay, I like these things. All right. Well, what does that look like? Well, probably means you're starting your own company and then, okay, where do you put it? Like, well, I've had a lot of physical therapy myself with blowing out my shoulder, blowing out my knee. And then now as a, um, you know, national, uh, level Olympic weight lifter, just.
00:15:11
Speaker
It's not if, it's when, and how many. I get ahead of it with tweets. I'm in. I'm ahead of my PT. There's just, I don't wait on it. Thank goodness for direct access in Kansas. So it makes it really, really easy. I feel like you're an Olympic weightlifter. I feel like we need to pause on that. The world needs to know more about that. I feel like, is there, do we, am I interviewing you? Cause I'd like to, I'd like to look,
00:15:42
Speaker
I'll keep it very short because this is your session, not mine. Started out doing consulting for manufacturing companies through Deloitte. Was my first expense card, was flying around everywhere, all that. Got fat and then looked up at an airport, I was at an airport Chili's.
00:16:00
Speaker
still vividly remember this at Airport Chili's and saw CrossFit on TV. I was like, I want to look more like that than I do like this. So that got into CrossFit for a few years, really like the barbell stuff. And so I've been competing in Olympic weightlifting and I'm not super strong by any stretch. But luckily, luckily in the genius minds of the USAW, that you can either get stronger or
00:16:28
Speaker
get older and hit the master's divisions and they lower the required total amount lifted for some more of their their premier competition so uh that's that's my my advice now if you can't get stronger get older and luckily everyone can follow it so i love that i really do i love love that so now i can feed it as a master's uh in the master's division and
00:16:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's, it is nice not having to compete against some 18 year old just straight beast of a human that weighs the same amount and can squat somewhere in the six, 700 pound range. It's just a, there's some amazing humans out there. Absolutely amazing humans. So we're gonna switch gears a little bit. Great. And we're going to probably do this quite a bit, right? Keep you on your toes. It'll make it fun. So
00:17:26
Speaker
talk to me about your proudest achievement or achievements. And I actually want to start outside of physical therapy. So as you look back at some of the things you're the most proud of, and maybe it's a process that you went through versus the outcome to go back to Julie's advice, right? What is one or two of those really proud achievements you've had outside of physical therapy?
00:17:52
Speaker
Oh, good question. I would say I'm going to do the cheesy. I'm kind of a cheesy person. I'm going to do the cheesy one and say, our kid is so fun. And he is just like watching, watching him exude kindness and sharing and kisses for grandma when he senses sadness and
00:18:12
Speaker
You know, last night the dog bit my finger and I was like, oh, he's like, oh, I'll get you a paper towel, Mama. You know, he's two and a half, by the way, for everybody. So he's not 18 saying Mama, which is fine. But he is watching your child exude kindness to the world is like it like throws me for a whole new sense of emotions. So I know that's probably a hokey answer to a simple question, but that is my favorite thing in the world is to watch him be sweet to others.
00:18:43
Speaker
Well, I'm about a year behind you, right? So my little guy is 18 months. And they do pick up on everything you do, right? If you want to look in a mirror, just see how your child acts, right? And I'm already starting to see that with him. And it sounds like you're further along in that process. I'm sure others that are watching are listening. Yeah.
00:19:09
Speaker
Just wait. Just wait. I know. Just you two wait. And on the flip side, he'll sit at this desk and say, two minutes, I'm working. And I'm like, ooh.
00:19:20
Speaker
least proud moment, Stephen. So yes, they are always watching and it is really fun to watch them exude kindness. That is just the most simple task to just be kind to somebody. And so that's my favorite thing and my most proud moment of this last year. Be that my wife, which is probably true. It's fun to see.
00:19:45
Speaker
There's a lot there and it's this idea that I've had about this, this idea of a karma flywheel, right? And so there's the business flywheel, right? Where, oh, you do something right, okay, it starts to really work and then it builds on itself. You get referrals to others and all of a sudden just, whoa, like this thing is just growing so, so fast. And I fully believe there is a karma flywheel.
00:20:12
Speaker
where if you put good into the world, it is likely to have a positive reverberation that affects more and more and more, right? And you make that that karma flywheel and maybe we should call it kindness flywheel. Maybe that's a more apps name, but that
00:20:30
Speaker
that you're creating that, right? And I think that's really special for not only you and your family, but also everyone your family touches. And there's a lot of good that will be driven from that focus on kindness. It's so lacking today, especially when you get outside of
00:20:52
Speaker
are, you have a soft bubble that PT is, right? And you get outside of it, it's very different. And so that is, I really appreciate you sharing that. It's a great story. And so now to flip to inside, more of a career-oriented, right? So what are one or two of your proudest achievements within your career?
Proudest Achievements
00:21:16
Speaker
You know, 10 years ago, I would have responded with, you know, this textbook or this, this thing I did, or this achievement I did, or the USA ski or whatever. And I, and all of those were really cool. And they took a lot of sacrifice from people around me and in time and energy as well.
00:21:34
Speaker
Now the things that get me out of bed and truly make me feel like that's my biggest happiness or my biggest accomplishment was even recency bias this weekend. We just got together as a team. For our annual, we always get to our annual business planning, look forward and then celebrate. We celebrate in healthcare in January because December is hard.
00:21:53
Speaker
And so we do that every year. And so we had, you know, our 65 plus employees hanging out and we did a, you know, we always do a couple of games, you know, who wins at bowling. And we always do like, here's our mission values. Here's the four things we live and die by. And we, you know, identify who was the most aligned with those this last year. We all vote for each other, right? Like who kicked ass the most in these four ways.
00:22:21
Speaker
It was so fun this year. I got teary when it got done because almost everybody tied. It was like everybody voted for everybody. And it was everybody had some variables and some votes. And only one person made it by one extra vote. And I was like, that is the best testament is that everybody in that room, it believes in small healthcare, it believes in delivering the mission, believes in where we're going and why. And that was like,
00:22:51
Speaker
That was one of those moments where I just wanted to leave and be like, you guys got this. You guys are kicking ass. This is absolutely not me. This is everybody in the room. So that was one of my most proud moments. But again, that was 48 hours ago or three days ago, so recency bias for sure.
00:23:07
Speaker
Maybe, maybe, but I'm going to go back to something you said earlier. You opened motion in 2016 because you couldn't find the right culture that you wanted to be a part of at their practice. To me, that feels very full circle. You found yourself right in the middle of it and it probably didn't take 14 years. Okay, boom, done. If I'm going to go back to that, I have to imagine it felt like
00:23:38
Speaker
this thing I wanted is this experience, not 14, sorry, eight years ago, this thing I wanted to create is here and it's helping people. Yeah. Yeah. And it's cool. And like, even the therapy partner side of that, like it helps people help people. So it's just all, it's all a part of the same endpoint.
00:24:04
Speaker
And so the moments that I feel the most proud are the moments of that. When people have no idea that I own the company and I am the last person in line and everybody in front of me is more of a mission driver than I am. That is my favorite. So I think the older I get, the more I find more value through other people leading the way and taking that process to the next level. And I don't think I felt that way in my 20s. I think I felt more about how
00:24:34
Speaker
I was able to deliver that. So I think my ego has declined and I hope it continues to decline because it's been really fun to kind of lean into that, you know, and just really enjoy others.
00:24:46
Speaker
I love that. One of the things we enjoy, especially when we go to conferences, is to see how long of a streak we can go when we're going to restaurants, bars, coffee shops, wherever, to see how long we basically can go to where someone doesn't give me the check. Where it's like, oh, there's, it just doesn't seem like, oh, it's not being arrogant or boss or anything like that. It must have been someone else. So we love to see it. And PPS, it was ridiculous.
00:25:13
Speaker
12 or 13 places we went to or something like that, where they would give it to Amanda or Tom or Ashley or somebody else on the team. I was a very personal, yes, that is a very good sign. That's so cool you had that moment. That's so cool that you had that moment and happy for you. Yeah, it's fun. It's fun to like, yeah, again, like we're
00:25:40
Speaker
All small business is fun because you're so closely tied to what you do and everybody has a direct contact point with that. And I hope that always remains. So I feel viciously protective over that. And you have to be, right? Because you get what you allow and that you have to be vicious is a very good word. And anyone who has joined your team and joined for the culture,
00:26:08
Speaker
a vicious attack dog type mentality for anything that would take away from that. I would have to imagine would be received extremely positively. Yeah, totally. And I have to like PSA for people that are listening. We are not always like there is moments as a business owner.
00:26:28
Speaker
where you fail at that one, right? So just like my failures as a parent every so often, right? Like that's, do not let the perfection be the limiter of that. There are moments that I feel crappy or COVID or, you know, insert whatever here. I think there's, it's not every perfect day or perfect year, but it's a perfect, perfect for me, so.
00:26:52
Speaker
and even intraday, right? Being a business owner is a roller coaster and it's not always day-to-day roller coaster. Sometimes it's hour to hour, minute to minute and being able to handle those highs and lows is, yeah, you have to be able to do that. So I really appreciate you bringing that up and maybe actually stay on that topic for a little bit, right? Because I've even seen it where there's this,
00:27:23
Speaker
Misconception, I think that like, oh, they're the boss.
Leadership and Feedback
00:27:26
Speaker
They have it all figured out or oh, they're growing They have it all figured out and that's not it right and all that's that's not the case and you're constantly Finding ways that you can can improve and there is one more quote I'll give you before we go into that a little bit excited to your point on making mistakes, right and that's why why we forgive and I read this in a book earlier this week that
00:27:52
Speaker
If it weren't for forgiveness, our highest watermark would be the lowest point in our lives. And that starts with forgiving yourself, I think. And I know that's a real problem for me of just not hammering myself, like, how'd you make that mistake? That was so stupid. How could you do that? How could anyone trust you? I definitely face a lot of that internally and hope to be able to improve on that.
00:28:20
Speaker
Thank you for listening to this episode. This would not be possible without the sponsorship of Sara Health. Sara is the relationship operating system for physical therapy practices, driving better patient outcomes, improved arrival rate, and improved financial margins. If you'd like to learn more, check them out at Sara, S-A-R-A, health.com.
00:28:42
Speaker
And if you'd be interested in advertising with us and helping us produce even more great stories, please let us know at stevenatserahealth.com. Now, back to the episode. Yo, let's talk through that a little bit, right?
00:28:59
Speaker
You get bad news. You have a bad day. One, I think everyone should expect that, right? It is not all roses and butterflies and the stuff you see on Instagram isn't real, or at least the cadence in the context isn't real. Maybe the texture itself was maybe.
00:29:21
Speaker
right? But and even on LinkedIn, right? Oh, you just announced a great partnership. Oh, well, yeah, but
00:29:30
Speaker
Here's the real story. So yeah, for those that are needed have started, right? Let's start. You think back to when you first started and some of those really tough days and probably really tough nights, right? What is some, what are some lessons that you learned, right? That you wish they, you know, Maggie in 2017 would have, would have known. Yeah. I think, um,
00:30:00
Speaker
You know, I think like even starting in our profession, you feel like, well, if I could just learn more, I'll get everybody better. And so you just get really comfortable in the gray because the more you know, the less you know.
00:30:10
Speaker
And really what you learn is to tolerate the discomfort of not knowing. And I think that was a process and I had to evolve with that because that was really good for me to go through and good to meet people who I thought knew it all. And they were like, we know nothing. Health care is complicated. It's good work. And I'm like, what?
00:30:30
Speaker
And I feel that same evolution with business. It's like, well, if I just learn more, you know, and I think we're always looking at people ahead of us, especially because like you said, so easy to see on social media and quick quips and, you know, and I was talking to somebody at Graham sessions last week and she's like, you
Handling Uncertainty in Business
00:30:46
Speaker
know, so much. I'm like, oh, I know nothing.
00:30:48
Speaker
Um, it's just, it's just the, and I think because of that, when we hit a pain point, like, oh, this is a painful day, or we looked for a solution, like a quick fix of, um, you know, maybe a partnership or this or that, and don't just sit in it and let yourself be uncomfortable because it might just be the discomfort of growth. Um, and, and it's, that's been, that's been hard for me. Um, and I'm a very, I'm a, I'm a communicator and I love experience sharing. So.
00:31:16
Speaker
I joined a couple groups this last year to start talking about that because it felt kind of lonely in that journey. It was really good because it did the same thing that happened when I was trying to learn more science to get people better, faster. The same experience sharing happened there where it's the more you know, the less you know, and everybody's in it together.
00:31:37
Speaker
And learning those bumps and bruises and sitting in the discomfort was a process. And so I think that's the message is there is no end point. There is no like, when you get here, this is what will happen. It's like every chapter is a little painful for a different reason. And we're such biased creatures. I look at my wife all the time. I'm like, maybe when we were little and we were just me in a room and she's like, you painted the 20-foot ceiling. Do you remember that? I was like,
00:32:04
Speaker
I don't know, did we? She's like, we sure did. You were like there like three in the morning. You don't remember that? I was like, not really. I was ever playing soccer in the gym and drinking beer at the patient. But it is, it's like every chapter has its thing, you know, and it's like, what are you tolerating? What are you comfortable with? And what are you striving for? And what's your outcome? And, and I think like, yeah, I think that was a just been helpful for me to vocalize over this last couple years. So that
00:32:32
Speaker
There's two things there. I think one is a very tactical piece of advice and one is a more mentality, a shift or adaptation.
00:32:43
Speaker
one, and I completely agree with this, surround yourself with people who are going through the same thing. Do that. It doesn't have to be a mini. It can be one. It can be two. It probably loses efficacy at six or seven, if I had to guess. I'm sure there's a Harvard Business Review article out there about the exact size or maybe it's
00:33:05
Speaker
Stanford Business School or somewhere else has a really good article on it and maybe I'll be able to find that for the show notes. Find that, right? And there's a guy that he and I both started health tech companies at the same time. We're both at UCLA at the same time and we have kept in touch over the last...
00:33:26
Speaker
getting on seven years now and every other week with a yo miss here and there we've had what we call founders therapy and we just talk about the lived experiences and it's so helpful it is it is so helpful to just have have that sounding board and
00:33:48
Speaker
actually hear what reality is for others that are in your similar position. I think that's really, really good. It's a really good piece of advice that I have abided by and could not suggest more.
Strategic Decisions in PT
00:34:03
Speaker
You mentioned being uncomfortable with the unknown, right, in the gray. And I think that reminds me of some advice that I got. I think it's similar, just different, almost different phrasiness.
00:34:18
Speaker
If you're running a small company or if you're running any company, there's a thousand fires you could put out and it's your job to figure out which fire is the biggest and needs to be put out the quickest and be comfortable letting other fires burn.
00:34:34
Speaker
That just is extremely apt, right? And I'm sure you look out at therapy partners and at Motion. I know I look out at Sarah, at Sarah Health and I'm like, man, we need to fix a lot of things. But we have limited resources to be able to do so. And so making those decisions and being comfortable with being wrong in those too, right? Like, ah, should have fixed that thing first. We should have done that first, but oh well.
00:35:03
Speaker
I do think it's so cool because doing that is what a being a provider is. You look at something and you're like, I want to make that more mobile. I want to make that...
00:35:13
Speaker
tolerate load better, I want to change the movement behavior, whatever you decide, right? And it's understanding what you're trying to drive towards and keeping the site there and understanding the people and the process and the ecosystem and the socioeconomic status and all of the variables that influence that process and being able to take those, digest those, but keep it simple.
00:35:39
Speaker
And so we, you do that, like, and you imagine you do that, you know, how many reps a week in a practice setting. And so you get a lot of reps on like, oop, that was wrong. Oop, that was wrong. And you don't get that many reps as a, as an owner, as in the same way. It's not like you get to, you know, it's like.
00:35:55
Speaker
try to drive towards a business plan 60 times in one week. But it's the same thing. It's just trying to digest information, get okay with a person coming back and saying they're worse, or an employee coming back and saying they're frustrated, or a vendor, a client coming back and saying they're not happy. That's the same thing. It's just new. Some newness creates difficulty. I always remind myself, it's the same process. You just have more reps in one process.
00:36:25
Speaker
but tolerating the same emotion on that, on being a business owner is similar.
00:36:34
Speaker
the old adage of feedback is a gift, right? And that is a big piece of our culture where we're very, very proud of is the more critical the feedback, the more thankful we are because we knew it was uncomfortable, especially for a physical therapist to send that. And so- People are nice. You are nice.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yes. Agree. Agree. So yeah, no, you're right. That's a great, it's a great mentality to have. And it sets your team up to orient towards that, right? Like it sets everybody up that feedback me because it's all about being better and serving and delivering. And so it's not about us, you know, and tell patients that all the time, like, you know, it doesn't hurt my feelings, if your words, just give me information, you know, like to help you get better. So it's the same. So
00:37:29
Speaker
I love it. So got two more topics I want to hit and then we'll be able to cut and be able to hopefully help some people out.
Vision for PT Industry
00:37:41
Speaker
The first last question is, if you had a magic wand,
00:37:47
Speaker
What would you fix in PT? If you want to broaden into healthcare, you can, but you get a magic wand, right? As of tomorrow, everyone wakes up and this one thing is different. Oh my gosh. I like had an idea and then I was like, nope, that's not right. I had an idea and I was like, not that one. Cause it's all, it's like the, it's like the genie question. I want more wishes. That's my run wish. I want four more wands.
00:38:17
Speaker
I want more. At first, I was going to say, I wish we knew as providers the value of what we deliver in healthcare because I wish that we had the confidence and inwardly to know how great we are as PTs to the global healthcare system. I think we are the best, most forefront of being able to solve healthcare issues across movement, exercise, and community. That's hugely important to people.
00:38:44
Speaker
And then, of course, like I say, confidence, and I'm like, yeah, but we should have the confidence and no focus. Like we should, I think as a profession, sometimes we disjoint and we all similar to that, like you try to grab different things of I want this in my state or this in my setting. And I wish we could just move as a system together, you know, and, and tribe together towards that end point of making the world a better place or movement and community. And I, you know, so I think
00:39:14
Speaker
I think it's both focus of our profession matched with the confidence of our profession.
00:39:24
Speaker
There's two pieces on that I want to share because I think it is exactly right. The symptom of not having that, and my wife is a nurse practitioner, and she rounds at a couple skilled nursing facilities that are pretty much more into hospitals than they should. It's a whole other thing.
00:39:51
Speaker
If those patients and residents could move and could move well, it's a new world for a lot of people. It's a new world for a lot of providers. It's a new world for payers. It's a new world. I don't think we can even fathom what the impact would be if everyone could move well.
00:40:21
Speaker
I don't think we can fathom it. We can probably look at some of the, maybe the European countries who have, you know, very high rates of mobility and an ability to ambulate to, you know, the later years and love watching the documentary Blue Zones, right? I was thinking about that. I just watched that a couple of weeks ago. Oh, so good. So good. And right, just getting up off the floor, right? And I really love what Dr. Peter Attia has put out in his book Outlive and the idea of HealthSpan.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yeah. And so I've started adding in some of those stability exercises, the most humbling of which has definitely been the stand on one leg and balance with your eyes closed. Yeah. That humbled me. Oh, wow. You're like I move weight heavy.
00:41:05
Speaker
Yeah, in one plane, that's my problem. So yeah, adding those in has been been great and get a little bit off the tangent, but I think you're right. And then so there's two pieces there, right? The impact of of core movement and how the profession is not able to treat as many people as would be optimal for our society. Yeah. And then you're in another piece where the value is not known. And
00:41:35
Speaker
If I take a bit more cynical approach to that, I think the value is known and is being hidden because the PT industry has accepted the current reimbursement model as it is today, for the most part, although with cash pay and others and direct to employer, you're starting to see more of these other flavors and
00:41:58
Speaker
Why are they doing well? Why is protein tactical out in Indianapolis doing well? It's because they figured out how to, what I call is the value exhaust. So they figured out how to not let a bunch of value just go off into the ether to be grabbed by other people.
00:42:18
Speaker
but be able to show like, hey, we're reducing time off the truck, so the fire engine, we're helping people get back quicker, we're helping people not get injured, right? And we can see all that value because we see it more for end to end. Now that's a shorter time period, right? And there's all sorts of different things there, but you're hitting on two things, which I think are incredibly important and aren't talked about enough, which is,
00:42:47
Speaker
the impact of poor movement on that 80% of cost being in the last 20% of life, hitting almost a Pareto principle perfectly. And then also this idea that I've had a value exhaust. So prior in more of the manufacturing facility, there was data exhaust, right? So data created that was not recorded or used for any
00:43:11
Speaker
good purpose but was being created and likely done via an extra action by somebody. That's bad. You want that to be as minimal as possible and I think the physical therapy industry is suffering from a value exhaust where just plumes of exhaust are going out into the ether and the value is not being captured by those delivering the care.
00:43:36
Speaker
I do hope to see that change and I guess I'm not waiting on hope. We're going to be a piece of that. Not the silver bullet, but we're going to be a piece and we're going to make some lives better. I totally agree. It's interesting because it's like, we know we are best for healthcare scene early.
00:43:59
Speaker
and managing things on the front end. We know that. And so, as a profession, to align ourselves with that and push towards that as a conglomerate is super important. But you see all these models where that's not the case. People get x-rays, MRIs through their primary orthopedics, then PT nine months later.
00:44:16
Speaker
And they're backed up in cog in the wheel because there's a shortage and there's this huge convergence of we're not seeing the models that amplify what we know. We're not see the payment that amplifies what we know. But it's not a binary discussion. It's not like, well, then
00:44:32
Speaker
If we can't see this and we leave, it has to be a robust and ever-evolving conversation, just like we've had this conversation in its entirety of this hour. Being okay with the gray zone and thinking outside the box and knowing where we're going as a profession and knowing that that just captures the middle two-thirds maybe, but we're focused, we see the value, we're going to totally support and love all the things that ancillary come out of that.
00:44:58
Speaker
I would love that. We all woke up and we knew that middle two-thirds, we centralized around that, we saw the value prop there, and we were able to deliver that. I think as a profession, we're best suited to do it. I couldn't agree more as someone who has been through it as a patient multiple, multiple times and will be again, multiple, multiple times.
Encouragement for PT Innovators
00:45:21
Speaker
We're going to end with a final question, which is, what advice would you give
00:45:28
Speaker
for someone listening or watching who wants to make a dent in the PT universe, right? So who wants to make a change, who maybe they're in a practice right now, I want to try this new thing. I think it'll be really, really helpful for providers. I think it'll be really helpful for patients, right? What advice would you give for that person who wants to make that dent but is struggling to make that first step?
00:45:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think just identifying the barrier. Is it your confidence to do it? Is it time? Is it your employer is not well aligned with that same value set? Is it that you're burned out and you don't have the ability to shine that light? And I think getting clear on why is always the first step. It's like the barrier is the biggest thing to identify, to be able to move forward. And I'm biased to think like,
00:46:24
Speaker
If you get really clear on the passion and maintaining that bright light, you're able to overcome the barrier. You're able to overcome the bad day, maybe the employer that doesn't agree with that same trajectory, and you say, you know what? Fine, then I'm going to do it over here, or I'm going to build it like you did, or whatever that looks like. But I think if you hone in on the why and maintain that light and maintain that and protect that,
00:46:52
Speaker
you're able to move forward. And so I think like having the courage to ask why, just like having the courage to ask the patient if they're worse, better, or the same. And I think building that courage and talking to others is the best thing to do. So that would be my advice. So I don't know if that hits the nail on the head, but.
00:47:10
Speaker
It does, it does. I think to take that even a step further or to expand upon it a little bit is figure out exactly what that barrier is, yes, but also make sure that barrier is a real barrier and not something that you've conjured up in your brain.
00:47:33
Speaker
And I've had it, right? Oh, I could start this company and it could help a lot of people. Oh, but I'm going to go in a lot. I'm going to put myself out there and my family out there financially. And we could end up on the streets and pull that would be really, really, that'd be really, really bad. Right. And then.
00:47:51
Speaker
That's fake. That's not real. The likelihood that that's going to happen is so infinitesimally low that it's not even worth considering. But that's that other voice that can get in your brain.
00:48:07
Speaker
I completely agree with you. Find what that barrier, that first barrier that you get over, because inertia is a hell of a drug, right? Once you get going, find that first barrier and make sure it's real. Make sure it's not just some conjured up demon in your head that just needs to be told to sit down and don't have a place here anymore. Totally. I love playing the worst case scenario game.
00:48:32
Speaker
I'll play it like with our lawyers. I'm like, worst case scenario, I forgot to pay sales tax. Tell me what the feds show up in a black car. I get handcuffed. We have not, by the way, for the record, you know, like whatever that thing is, you know, and like, it's often not as bad as you think. It's like, you just pay it fine. Sorry, or whatever. And you're like, Oh, okay. Because I think we're very much wired to think worst case scenario is so much worse and further standing than it might be. So
00:49:00
Speaker
Um, and I think, you know, that's a huge barrier for me often. And so just vocalizing that and getting comfortable, you know, playing that out is always a really good thing. So. Yeah. The, the worst, the thing that you come up with in your head is probably a hundred times worse than whatever reality could ever draw at you. Totally. Totally. Um, and PTs were, were
00:49:20
Speaker
We are absolutely the people that do that. We play worst-case scenario in a very grandiose way all the time. So I am included in that same process. So just vocalize it. Say it all out. I love it. We've covered quite a few things today and I think some of my key takeaways and what I've learned and definitely am excited about is, you know,
00:49:44
Speaker
making sure that for folks out there, like, how do you, you started to, how do I create the practice I
Episode Takeaways
00:49:51
Speaker
want to be in, right? And so.
00:49:53
Speaker
For those listening, how do you create that environment that you want to be in? And with Maggie's stories and others that we'll tell, it's possible. You absolutely can do it. And here is exhibit A. The other Julie Whitman's advice, I think, is so good, right? And how do you feel during the process? And what are those different things during the process that you either love or hate?
00:50:18
Speaker
writers and some others may call it give you energy or take energy and you're always going to have a combination of that but try not to let it get out of kilter or else it gets to be a really bad day.
00:50:29
Speaker
Um, and then hang on the last piece. I really love it. Identify that first barrier, make sure it's real and then get over it and see what happens next. Yeah. So Maggie, I want to say thank you. Thank you so much for the time today. And I'm sure if our listeners could thank you as, as well, they would thank you for being on disruptors and have a great rest of your day. Thanks guys. Thanks for having me. It's good to see you. Have a good day. Bye. Bye.
00:50:57
Speaker
Thank you for listening to another episode of The Disruptors. I hope that you were able to take one or two things away that you can apply immediately to your own innovation journey. As always, I'm your host, Stephen Cohen, sponsored by Sarah Health. Let's keep moving.