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00:00:01
Sean Kinsman, Kandu Health™
13 Plays2 months ago
In this episode, Steven sits down with Sean Kinsman, VP Clin Ops at Kandu Health™
Learn more about SaRA Health:
https://www.sarahealth.com/
Check out Kandu Health™:
https://kanduhealth.com/
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Transcript
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of The Disruptors, where we're arming you with the tools you need to innovate within the physical therapy space by highlighting those who have come before you. I'm your host, Stephen Cohen. Now, let's get into it. Welcome back to another episode of The Disruptors.
00:00:18
Speaker
We're highlighting innovators within the physical therapy community to give tactical advice for those looking to innovate within PT. Today, I'm blessed to be joined by Sean Kinsman.
00:00:28
Speaker
And Sean, I would love for you to to give the audience a ah quick introduction. Yeah, Steve. Thanks for having me on. So as Steve mentioned, I'm Sean Kinsman. I am currently the head of ClinOps at a small company called CanDo Health. It's a startup.
00:00:45
Speaker
in the digital health space that's focused on helping stroke survivors and their caregivers get access to high quality care, ah particularly in that 90 day post acute period after they've had the stroke and gone through just that huge life change. So really a crucial timeframe for them to get that access.
00:01:02
Speaker
um A bit about me. I'm a PT by trade. Was trained at Northeast University. Shout out to the Huskies in Boston. ah Started my career at health systems. I did some time at Mayo.
00:01:15
Speaker
And then I was at Hopkins for a few years, really cut my teeth on oncology. um And for me, I always wanted to to just make a difference in humans' lives.
00:01:26
Speaker
um You know, helping people to recover from injury and actually getting quality time with them was kind of the the way I fell into PT. And then as I kind of got into it and felt some of the the inefficiencies of the system, I really wanted to be an agent for change.
00:01:42
Speaker
So I stepped into, at one point my career, multidisciplinary practice that was focused on using telehealth to engage the state of California right at the like pinnacle of the opioid use crisis. We started to realize we've been overprescribing for two decades and helping those people that were particularly caught in that system of just being addicted or dependent, unable to resume gainful employment and successfully resume their lives, helping them to do that with telehealth. And this was dark days of telehealth, me tell you that. This was when we were using Skype.
00:02:14
Speaker
We had Polycom systems. It was ugly. um But it it created this kind of natural urge in me to make a broader impact and leverage more of these more bleeding edge technologies to really make that impact. So my last role, which is probably ah you know my my most impactful and and biggest passion project, ah was with a company called Recovery One, ah where I spent the last seven years ah really you know heading up their clinical services and operations teams, kind of building out the solution.
00:02:43
Speaker
and establishing kind of a ah new way of delivering care and more of a value-based paradigm. So when you think of traditional care, it's fee-for-service, so you get paid by volume.
00:02:56
Speaker
And we really were able to jump the curve a little bit and negotiate with payers towards more outcomes than payments. So are we getting the patient better and getting reimbursements and cost-sharing profiles to accommodate those structures in and out of a bundle setting? So it was a really rewarding experience for me to be on the ground and really help build and kind of carve that out.
00:03:16
Speaker
So that's that's a bit of my journey, probably a bit more than you asked for Steve, but you brought me on. So it's your own thoughts. That's perfect. And I i really like the the focus on moving into the value-based of care arena, especially for PT, right? Because in the fee-for-service model, you're more or less penalized for efficiency.
00:03:41
Speaker
Right. Like, oh, well, that didn't take eight minutes, so can't bill it. Right. Or, hey you get 40 minutes for the visit. Right. So, you know, use all 40. I don't know if you are familiar with the Parkinson's law, not the neurodegenerative disease, but it's difference where basically ah any meeting will expand to fill the time slot of that meeting. Right. Regardless of the efficiency. like of it. Um, and so we've almost forced PT into like a Parkinson's law bucket by putting these time, like such, such an important on, on time spent, right. Versus actual, uh, care delivered.
00:04:25
Speaker
Um, and so I, I think there's a lot of opportunity within value-based care. Obviously you do as, as well. Um, as, As you think back to your in-clinic and then the transition, right, into the the telehealth world, what, and the polycom, yeah, that brings back some ah so some memories of our games.
00:04:49
Speaker
ah In conference rooms and and everything else. um the Was there anything or or a set of things you did when you were at Hopkins or in-clinic that you think set you up for that transition? Yeah.
00:05:06
Speaker
It's a good question, Steve. I probably have a couple answers to that, but I'll i'll titrate it to your first part, Gisette Hopkins. um So Hopkins, everyone knows Johns Hopkins. Back when I was there, best hospital in the land, still a pretty good hospital. They've fallen a bit since I left.
00:05:24
Speaker
i don't know if there's a correlation or not, but we'll just skip it. Infer what you will. Yeah, you can take that audience and choose what you want. No, the great thing about Hopkins is ah you get to experience everything.
00:05:38
Speaker
You get to see everything. um You know, I you just hit everything you possibly but can in terms of patience. youll You will see every diagnosis, every issue, every permutation of can possibly happen to a human being.
00:05:53
Speaker
And you'll be asked to solve it. um One of the cool things that probably really galvanized me the most is I was able to take part in the MICU study at Hopkins. I was right there. right at the crux of when we were doing that. And that was a study that they put out of mobilizing individuals that were medically compromised in the ICU setting.
00:06:12
Speaker
So the people that were sedated, they were vented, they were, you know, ah impeded by, could be VACs, could be open stomach wounds, whatever it was, our job was to get them up as soon as possible. And we were testing to see if we had better outcomes.
00:06:27
Speaker
Well, the proof was in the pudding. We were really able to push the bounds and change the way the entire country, and frankly, some of the world operated in getting people mobilized earlier out of that study. So you'll you'll hear the MICU study at Hopkins referenced, and they came out in 2008, but the work we were doing was 2006 and 07. It was great to be a part of that. And that really helped to, at an early stage, enlisted me the drive to push things forward, you know Puts things to a point where we can really challenge the status quo, um which is not something that happens a lot in healthcare, care but particularly PT. I mean, you know this. We're still using walkers that were designed 100 years ago.
00:07:10
Speaker
there's Yeah, we we go for a long time ah on that, but to to make sure we're giving value to to to everybody. Did you have to raise your hand for that MICU study? you're like How did you get involved in it?
00:07:21
Speaker
yeah what anne that I know you've slept a couple times since then, but ah yeah, for for those that are thinking about raising their hand or or trying to figure that out, like how how did you get involved with it with that study?
00:07:33
Speaker
Uh, you know, for me, it was, it was an adjacency. Uh, so you won't see my name on it. So I was supporting it. I was doing some of the testing and I was on the, the, uh, the oncology unit and this was happening in the the medical unit, but yeah we cross covered, we had some of those patients coming over. So it was me playing a role by proxy more than anything, but it, it, it kind of sowed the seed right there maybe and being able to really, you know, work in that environment with those people that were mentally compromised,
00:08:03
Speaker
And, you know, what you had learned in school no longer applied. Like you were changing the paradigm. And that to me really was so cool about what you could do there. Now that's, you know, there's, there's another caveat to that, right? Like when you work at an academic medical center, you know, sometimes you get stuck in the, minut the you know, the kind of minutia of, yeah the bureaucratic you know, ways in which we do things.
00:08:27
Speaker
But that was a real opportunity that comes up along very rarely. um And I was able to play a role ah I think there's a couple pieces of advice to that that I'm teasing out there.
00:08:40
Speaker
um And one is to not be afraid, in fact, to to raise your hand and and put yourself in an environment that's tough, right? Where... Yeah, you're not seeing the same you know eight total knees in the morning and then six ACLs in the afternoon. I know there's anything wrong with that. ah But a putting yourself in environment to to broaden your um to broaden your scope and broaden the aperture of of what's possible.
00:09:07
Speaker
And a the the second half of that and to not be afraid of of going into environments where school doesn't apply anymore. Right. And so that.
00:09:19
Speaker
Actually, I want to stay on that for for a second, right? Because i would say that what I learned at Kansas State and even going to to do my MBA at UCLA, which, you know, depend upon the year, somewhere, you know, top 20 business school in the world, um I've had to unlearn a lot of things to run a startup effectively.
00:09:41
Speaker
And so maybe talk about that as because you've worked in startups, right? And and how did... how did some of that unlearning process in the clinic translate into unlearning or, you know, it on the the startup side?
00:09:57
Speaker
It's such a good call out, Steve. ah You know, when we're clinicians, we're taught this very top-down leadership style. You know, you you're reacting to the system, whether it's your manager or the physician, there's processes that are, you know over-engineered at times and you're you're just, you a lot of times you aren't given the freedom to make those changes, you know, at a place like Hopkins, it's, it's a little bit more free because you have that opportunity, but you're not going to have that always. So you need to carve it out and create it. Frankly, you need to be a part of volunteering for some of these work groups that are opening up new initiatives or doing research, you know, um you know, Athletico is a great example of one. They've got all these kinds of core groups that you can plug into and,
00:10:42
Speaker
and do some real research or do some you know proactive outreach and kind of changing the care paradigm for across the system. um and And I know that's probably true of ATI and USPH and the others.
00:10:55
Speaker
um but But anywhere you are, you can you can take that leap and you can approach it. But to your point about unlearning, I think that's such a true statement. When I went to ah startup at Recovery One, this is really crucial point I'll make.
00:11:12
Speaker
It was a clinician run company. um And so the clinicians are taking their experience from the in-person world, that top-down leadership style, lot of structure, lot of risk aversion, lot of you know unwillingness to take risks because of the consequences associated, which makes sense and where they're cominging from.
00:11:32
Speaker
And when you go to a startup, you have limited resources, you have financial constraints, you have time constraints. you're building what they call an MVP, which if you're a clinician going into a startup, you probably think that's most valuable player.
00:11:46
Speaker
It's not, right? It's a viable product. And like oftentimes, you're not even starting with that. You're at 0.5 MVP when you're really ready to go to market. So it's really going down and working on finding the essence.
00:11:58
Speaker
I know as a clinician, you know you're trained to laterally think, and you're kind of running through the permutations in your head of all the options. When you're moving into a startup, it's really about Getting down and communicating across audiences is the essence of what you need.
00:12:13
Speaker
You have to, there's ah there's a saying, and I forget where I'm referencing it from. One of my executive coaches told it to me, was ah simplicity is the ultimate complexity.
00:12:24
Speaker
And so when you're communicating, when you're designing, when you're ideating, anything you're doing in startup, Your goal is to get to simplicity and you have to peel away some of those barriers.
00:12:34
Speaker
um You know, a good one is, you know, we operate in a very risk averse world. And so we're used to following everything by the letter of the law. Well, when you talk to some of these, you know, bigger digital health care laws like McDermott, Will & Emery is a good example of one. Shout out.
00:12:50
Speaker
um ah they they will tell you that, listen, these this is not black and white. There's interpretations. And it's it's the size of the startup. It's the operation of where you are in terms of scale. It's the likelihood of enforceability in that jurisdiction that you need to be aware of.
00:13:07
Speaker
Because there's trade-offs. You can be super risk-averse, but that's going to slow you down. That may not meet the needs of where you want to go. And it's also going to bog down your processes, bog down your ability to innovate.
00:13:18
Speaker
So i would say that's that's a big one. I like that. And yeah, there's there's a ah couple pieces there. um And i know we're coming right off of, what was it, Friday, the Supreme Court came back and struck down the Chevron Doctrine, right? Which I don't know what that's going to do for the health care and health tech world. But um all of a sudden, gray area now has to get decided by courts, which like, i mean, you even look at just for the remote therapeutic monitoring coach, right? Like,
00:13:51
Speaker
those are vague. like and Those are are very vague. like what is What is a day of data exchange? What is a day of monitoring? Even like okay like what is a software as a medical device? right like in What level you need to play within there?
00:14:05
Speaker
I know that's niche to to us, but like you're 100% correct in that As you get into it, you realize there's a ton of gray area.
00:14:16
Speaker
um And they're intentionally gray at times, right? Like you can't build out an RTM process when you don't know how RTM is going to operate. Or what impact it'll have, right? Like how's this going to work? Who's going to benefit, right? Like, okay, well, musculoskeletal, like, okay, let's keep it pretty broad because I bet when CMS put that out, they had no idea. They didn't think that, oh,
00:14:38
Speaker
stroke patients like we see are going to really benefit from this. Like, oh, well, yeah, and vertigo, like, oh okay. Like, yeah, it makes sense now, right? But you'll give to to give the tools and and let people go You know, it's, I really appreciate you highlighting the work groups. um We've hit this on a couple episodes, but a in general, having a, just being being willing to risk your time.
00:15:05
Speaker
is is extremely important as you look to become an innovator in any any world. And at Deloitte Consulting, we had what we called nights and weekends work.
00:15:17
Speaker
So your client work was during the the day and night too. quite often. And then, and then you had nights and weekends, right. Where you work on recruiting. For me, it was one of my favorite projects that I did was ah actually rolling out Tableau and training like 10,000 people, which was an absolute blast. But like, I've heard that before that rolling out Tableau is an absolute blast.
00:15:43
Speaker
I appreciate, I appreciate that mindset. I like that. I learned a lot. I learned a heck of a lot. And yeah, A lot of that experience is extremely helpful now because you just you learn how detailed certain things need to be, especially when it comes to rolling out software, right? like And if you try to do it at scale to where you can't be in person, like you just... Yeah, a lot a lot of those lessons. And if it wasn't for doing that,
00:16:13
Speaker
i it would be a lot tougher. Like this job would be a lot tougher. and And we wouldn't have, have been able to to bring a lot that in. So I really appreciate that, that piece of advice of of looking for and volunteering for work groups.
00:16:26
Speaker
And yes, it is extra work, right? And you don't have to do it. ah But don't complain. You never got a chance if you weren't willing to risk your time on, on something.
00:16:39
Speaker
Yeah, one of the things that um a life worth measured is something that's kind of just come up in my my zeitgeist over the last few years. And people measure their life in different ways. um Some is you know how much money you make. Some is how many kids you have. Some is what job level you got to.
00:16:57
Speaker
And one of the interesting ones I think that probably resonate with at least the the clinicians in your audience, for me at least, it really switched from you know accolades and and finances to number of lives touched.
00:17:08
Speaker
yep And so the really cool thing about where I went from and it really motivated me at an early stage is I was doing one at a time when I was in the clinic and that was great. I got to see real change, real make that connection and and be able to impact for that one person and that I can carry with me into my dying day and say, yeah, I made a difference in that person's life.
00:17:29
Speaker
But after working at recovery one, I've made a difference in a hundred thousand lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's going to continue to scale. So if you can make the changes, the Mickey studies, then God's point and way more than that.
00:17:41
Speaker
If you can make those changes and see the quality that you're creating, and if you're galvanized and driven by the lives that you touch, this is a no brainer. It gives you that purpose to step into those opportunities.
00:17:54
Speaker
I love that. i There's, and I did probably take that calculation a step further, right? And into quantity times impact, right? Like how much,
00:18:05
Speaker
impact did you deliver to their lives around you? And yeah, that's, i think it's a great question for folks to ask themselves and and come up with their, their life measurement, right? Like how how are you going to measure, uh, measure at the, the end of the day? And, um,
00:18:23
Speaker
at least speaking for myself personally, it won't be accolades. It won't be, ah you know, exits or fundraising achievements or or anything like that. For for me, it's it's really, especially about the the teams that I work with, it's how many people did ah did I enable to move faster than they originally thought possible, um which, you know,
00:18:48
Speaker
I actually kind of want to loop back around you know, you mentioned recovery one was, was very clinician driven, right? Early days, early the early days, early days, early days, right. And, you know, one of the things that, one of the reasons I find think ive we've found success is, you know,
00:19:08
Speaker
we fill all three corners of the triangle, right? So we have business, tech, and clinical with the three co-founders. So myself, our chief clinical officer, and our CTO, yeah as you look at digital health or really just any like health tech opportunities out there, do you now have a framework for how you would look at opportunities based on like leadership structure or Now that you've yeah you've seen a few right and been a part of it, how do you how do you think about a an optimal leadership structure or founder structure?
00:19:44
Speaker
Yeah, it's a good question. And I wouldn't say I've got it nailed yet to what perfection is, um but a couple of nuggets.
00:19:55
Speaker
One is culture each strategy for breakfast. Yep. um So if you're going into an organization with a strong culture and you're surrounded by people that are mission driven, have purpose, and you generally will get along with, you're going to go far.
00:20:10
Speaker
That organization is going to go far because you've got the right culture and you've got the right mentality in place. you know i mean Again, let me let me me qualify that. i mean You could have a culture that's great, like you're playing ping pong on Friday. That's not really going to cut it in the startup. But if you've high-performance culture yeah that has purpose, you've got authenticity that aligns with your values, transparency.
00:20:34
Speaker
that helps really share the direction between the team members, you're able to bring your whole self and you've got that on a bedrock of trust. For me, that's a recipe for success in the companies you're looking for. And I would say above anything else, above role, above space, the culture should be the first thing you look at because that's where really the make or break points are.
00:20:57
Speaker
i I think that's great advice. and I like ah there's authenticity, transparency, trust. There's a ah book right now. i'm reading create Grit's the other secret sauce there, the grit.
00:21:08
Speaker
Thank you for listening to this episode. This would not be possible without sponsorship of Sarah Help. Sarah is the relationship operating system for physical therapy practices. driving better patient outcomes, improved arrival rate and improved financial margins.
00:21:24
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more, check them out at sarahealth.com. sarahhealth dot com And if you'd be interested in advertising with us and helping us produce even more great stories, please let us know at stephenatsarahealth.com. Now back to the episode.
00:21:44
Speaker
If you don't mind, I haven't done before, but this could be fun. Might be terrible idea when I've got to edit it out. But like ping pong back, right? So a question that I would think to ask about grit is asking about the struggles of the company, right? Because that's going to show you if they have grinded it out, but also shows authenticity too, right? Because it's like, oh, it's kind of always been pretty great. like, I doubt that.
00:22:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I like that. I think I always ask, what are the challenges? what's My favorite one is what's keeping you up at night? Yep. What are the opportunities?
00:22:23
Speaker
And you know where if you if you dial in always dial in a ah layer below that, why are these challenges being faced? What would it take to reach those opportunities?
00:22:34
Speaker
And that that at least has always given me a sense of, is this person thinking about it right? Are they asking the questions? and Are they putting in the work or are they sitting here and just complaining about it? And it takes all types, but I think those i think you're you're spot on with that question.
00:22:49
Speaker
um Another one is, ah like it's a it's it's a broader value one, but I think it leads back into grit. It's, you know what's what's the greatest accomplishment of your life?
00:23:00
Speaker
and i never put And never put restrictions on it. It could be professional, it could be personal, it could be whatever it is, but what has been your greatest achievement in your life?
00:23:12
Speaker
And what it gives me when I ask that question is, what do they value? And you can dig in beneath that and get into any other one of those. You can get into authenticity, transparency, grit. But it just gives you the ability to really get a ah picture into who they are and what they value.
00:23:27
Speaker
And that immediately is going to give you a sense of, all right, can I work with this person? Do we have values that align? Do they align with the mission and vision of the organization? I love that. I want to take a ah quick sidebar. Your advice on digging to the second level and even third and below is is so good, right? It is so key because you're going to figure out a lot in that and that question. I know for like Amazon, when I interviewed with with them back when I was doing the the NBA, that was part of their process, right? They picked a bullet.
00:24:02
Speaker
And like, okay, you delivered $10 million dollars in savings. How? Like, oh, by you know negotiating to this, this, and this. Okay, with who? Like, oh, it's mainly this these suppliers, but you'll also filtered out of this.
00:24:15
Speaker
Okay, and and how did you do it? Like, oh, well, you know this, this, this, this process, da, da, da. But it was very obvious what they were doing, right? It's like, if you couldn't answer that question, that that second or third level, then you probably weren't the one that did the work.
00:24:30
Speaker
And I think on the transparency, a question that um I love getting asked is what what are your your key metrics and where are they at?
00:24:43
Speaker
Right. And so asking that question, And then seeing what the answer is to to that. Right. And I'd say some some red flags would be if a there's not a good answer. Right. They come up with like 10. I don't know any much. What KPIs? What those? Yeah.
00:25:02
Speaker
That's, yeah, that that would that would be red flag number one. Red flag number two would be, oh, like we don't, we don't, we're we we're not told or we don't know or whatever else, right? As far as you how you're tracking against that. um But what, a for trust, because that's an incredibly important trait, right?
00:25:22
Speaker
yeah what are What are some ways that you find to to tease out the the trust level and in a in an organization? You know, I think one of those is just observing how they're interacting with you, right? Are they guarded? What are their what are their mannerisms?
00:25:39
Speaker
Is the person that's open or a person that's closed off? If the person is closed off, you're going to need to, you know, work with them on developing that trust. If it's person that's open, it's a little bit easier. It's a little more flowing.
00:25:50
Speaker
um And you can probably dig a little deeper. one of the things I'm always sensitive to, particularly when I'm stepping into a new role, which is really prescient for me now, is you you know what are what are the ways in which I can best serve the dynamics of the situation?
00:26:04
Speaker
So taking in all the intangibles, what are the motivations of the person across? How am I showing up to that person? you know What are what are the the goals that we are trying to both head towards?
00:26:17
Speaker
And how can I gauge myself to achieve and serve that situation that leads towards the company's best outcome? And that, that to me in any situation, particularly an interview situation is super important because then what you're allowing yourself to do is to gain insights into who that person is and not, but you know, the old trick, you have two ears and one mouth.
00:26:39
Speaker
You want to get as close to this working and less this working in that process. So being there to really be an active listener and trying to understand how that person operates.
00:26:51
Speaker
um So that, that to me is, is really important. The other thing I'll just add to trust, and this is, I think is, it's just a ah key consideration across the board, whether it's interviewing or or in the company at all, it's,
00:27:04
Speaker
Understanding the hard times are going to come. Asking about the hard times, the challenge we talked about is a key part of that in the initial part, but understanding the hard times are going to come. It's important to build the trust in the good times. So that's there in the hard times.
00:27:20
Speaker
Yep. Every startup faces it. Sarah's already faced it. You and I have talked about it. Recovery one certainly has faced it. Can do is facing it at times. Everybody faces it. um So you've got to build that rapport. You've got to have that relational connection.
00:27:34
Speaker
I'm a guy that, ah you know, i don't know if you know the disc profile. Oh, yeah. little A little inner. So I'm i'm a i'm the i'm under the D yeah section of it. So, you know the domineering piece of it is my base trait.
00:27:49
Speaker
And so, you know, that correlates to me being very task oriented, me getting stuff done. And I've had to really round myself out and focus more on the relational building because not everybody's going to respond to that.
00:28:00
Speaker
And understanding what those other motivations are in the teams that you're working with, it's great if you can be able to kind of plug into them and help them operate better because you're seeking to understand. And that's your role as a leader.
00:28:12
Speaker
All of that to me is what fosters and na develops trust. And you hit on another piece of you know understanding how you come across to others. And there's a founder, his name's Ray.
00:28:27
Speaker
He and I have had a biweekly founder's therapy together for like i four years. Yeah. Four or five years.
00:28:38
Speaker
And you one of the things that that he came up with when he was having trouble with some of his developers ah was putting it in their words, but I think it applies extremely broadly.
00:28:50
Speaker
And that is, what is the user experience of working with you? And like, actually thinking like, oh, like, well, I get yeah just like actually thinking through that piece of it and and how you come across to others and how you may want to consider rounding out, right? Maybe some some development areas there.
00:29:13
Speaker
But um yeah, when you said how you came across other people remind me of yeah, thinking through what the the user experience is of of working with you. And that could be you as a clinician in the clinic, right? Like, what is it like for a patient both during and in between visits, right? Or are you asking them to email you, call you, text you, and then not reading or using any of that data, right? um Or... That's a great comment, Steve. i think clinicians are so guilty of that. Like, oh, they never come to my clinic.
00:29:42
Speaker
It's never really that internal look of like, what what can I do better? to provide that value to that patient. Like there, there's the missing piece. And i mean, part of it's just because we're all burnt out because we're working in an environment where we're seeing too many patients and have to document too much. like i get it.
00:29:58
Speaker
But if we really want to make a difference, we've got to get in the mindset of that patient who we're serving. Be that, be that servants. You know, it could be a servant leader, could be a servant provider, whatever it is, recognize that they're you're there to serve the situation, the constituents around you. It's not the other way around. Yeah, that's, I, and I've been blessed by, by, I think serve is a a great word in terms ah of what the amazing PTs and in my life have, I've done for me to, to get me to a hundred percent and and, and even further than that.
00:30:33
Speaker
um But, but yeah, that's, and and that doesn't always mean doing more, right? Sometimes it can mean doing less, right? Like if you, if you're not going to, use that data, don't ask for it.
00:30:45
Speaker
Right. Like I, I'm getting, I'm getting PT right now. And, uh, you're back at PT a again, Steve. of course. um again You're just, you're just like plug and play, man.
00:30:57
Speaker
it's, it's not if it's, it's when you're how physics like they could probably just have a one man shop serving you, man. Be great. I don't need anybody else. At some point, uh, that, that might actually be cost effective, uh, for everybody.
00:31:11
Speaker
Um, And I appreciate it. It's like, oh, you text me and let me know how went, the flight, you know, whatever it is. and And then i did it the first time i didn't get a response for like three or four days.
00:31:27
Speaker
And I'm like, I'm not doing this again because of it. And it's like, just don't ask, right? Like if you're overextending yourself, just just don't ask. If she just said, hey, write down in your notes app, like how you felt on these days. and then we could talk about it when you come back in the next time.
00:31:42
Speaker
Perfect, right? Now, they' they they'll be rolling out Sarah in August and and that won't be an issue anymore. But you know for for now, right, just thinking through, um i yeah and when you especially when you said, you know understand how you come across, like understand the user experience of of working with you um and the pros and cons of it. that's it's It's great advice.
00:32:05
Speaker
I um want to pivot a little bit here because I think we've given... you've you've given a lot of of really good tactical pieces of advice, right? From, you know, being willing to raise your hand and to risk your time, right?
00:32:18
Speaker
Putting yourself in an an environment that is is tough and where school very well may not apply. um and coming down to to questions to ask to find that that right culture fit for for you.
00:32:31
Speaker
ah all All really good stuff. And so going to transition into my my favorite question to ask, which is, If you had a magic wand and you could fix one thing about PT, what would it be?
00:32:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's such a hard question to answer because when you think about PT, what is PT? Yeah. a um You have to ask that question. Like, what is PT?
00:33:01
Speaker
And I think if you if you ask that to you know a thousand people, you get a thousand answers. It's not something that's easily defined, although the APTA will tell you that it is.
00:33:12
Speaker
And they do a great job putting it on the website. But it's not lived. It's not breathed. um It's not in the DNA. um And so think if I was to have a magic wand...
00:33:25
Speaker
I think I would find a way to reach the hearts and minds of every PT on the planet and have them unify on a clear vision and mission for what it is we do for for the world.
00:33:43
Speaker
Something that's you know clear and simple and that we can interact in that absolves territorial considerations that really is in service of man.
00:33:54
Speaker
really Or women, people should be more DEI sensitive than that in this conversation. um So really just giving us – kind of goes back to that earlier theme about simplicity is the ultimate complexity. We talked about before we got on this podcast.
00:34:12
Speaker
Yeah. we can We can rattle off a million things that we do. But we really can't boil it down to the essence of what it is we do, how we make a difference that's universally applied.
00:34:23
Speaker
That, to me, I think is really where we need to get to in a way that speaks to every PT in their deepest core. So that instead of being frustrated by the things we don't have, like enough time with patients, enough time to finish documentations,
00:34:38
Speaker
enough time to you know enjoy some of the things we want, enough money to go and you know feel like we've been able to pay off our ridiculous student loan bills. um And we we do more like, okay, we got into this for a reason. It wasn't to make money.
00:34:53
Speaker
wasn't It wasn't to get accolades. It wasn't to have stature. It was to help people. Yep. And giving everybody the permission to go back to that in a way that provides meaning and purpose to them and where they are in their life.
00:35:09
Speaker
That would be the magic wand. I know it's a little bit softer than you probably wanted, but that's, that's, I think where it would have the most impact and change in my mind. a It's like, let me add one more thing, Steve, before you open the door.
00:35:23
Speaker
It's like Simon Sinek, Start With Why, you've read that book. yeah yeah know some think But you know Apple is so successful because of their why. lot of companies start with the why.
00:35:34
Speaker
Having the why, having that vision, having that understanding of where we're going and why we're doing it, and always correlating that into everything we do, that's that's the way that PT becomes what it's supposed to be.
00:35:47
Speaker
It's not there yet, but that's the straightest path there.
00:35:53
Speaker
I, I love, I really, really like that answer. Actually, no, I love that answer because, and to equate it to startup, to startup advice as well, you know, a bad pitch deck or sales deck tells you all about features, right? Like,
00:36:12
Speaker
And yet that is exactly how people talk about PT. It's the features, right? Like we do this, we do that. Like what is physical therapy? Oh, we do dry needling. Like, Oh, okay.
00:36:23
Speaker
Um, but, but why do I want that? Um, or like we can treat stroke and musculoskeletal and this and that and this and that. And like, I think you're, you're, you're, you're hitting the nail on the head, on,
00:36:38
Speaker
the the problem of not having a clear definition. And it's funny that you said that about the APTA was in the mothership. Really nice building. It's nice building. They did a great job. a Really nice building. It's a really nice building. Oh, were you were there for the Pearson thing, right?
00:36:58
Speaker
Yep. You're going to give Recovery 1 a plug? ah Absolutely. I forget who was there from from the team. I think there was... maybe Alice, maybe, uh, yeah, yeah. Um, and, uh, yeah, was, was a, I think we briefly interacted. Uh, but one of the things i asked ah just more of the APTA was, Hey, with this report coming out and like being pretty darn good for in-person PT, like,
00:37:28
Speaker
and it definitely didn't hurt in-person PT, right? But also showing the different entry points are good for different people. Like, okay, now you're broadening, right, the the aperture for for folks to enter into physical therapy. Like, do you think it's a good time to do a a a rebrand? Like, of what even is rehab? Like, should you even say we're physical therapists or should you say we're rehab professionals should say we're movement health professionals? Like, do you think it is, like, and in his...
00:37:58
Speaker
you know, his response is pretty much like, no, i't I don't think so at this time. And I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I think, you know, in a similar, and there's this, there's like this itch inside of me. It's like, man, this, if not now when is the right time? I guess would be the question I'd follow up on that one.
00:38:21
Speaker
I guess after the, the water has gotten hotter. Uh, To use the boiling frog ah ah analogy. um and Maybe. Maybe.
00:38:38
Speaker
Yeah, maybe after Sword IPOs and has a higher market cap than ATI or a couple of these others combined. They already they already do They're already worth more than ATI, I think, at this That's a good point. That's a good point. that It hasn't survived the public market yet, but but yes, I think the the actual like dollar value is – you're absolutely right. That – that ah And then I even started thinking, no no i'm I'm not a clinician, right? But it's like, okay, well, if you did do a a rebrand, and this is just, let's just, this will be fun, right? If you did do a rebrand, would you open it up? And this is specifically you Sean's point of view, right? Would you open it up to OT and speech?
00:39:25
Speaker
Like, ha where what how would you put the even the guardrails around What physical therapy or like, even if you just said, okay, it needs to be more than physical therapy needs to be rehab, right? Like who goes in that, that who who gets on that train?
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah. and that brings up a really good point. Um, so I'll answer it in two ways. One is I think you go broad. Yeah. I think that's the right way because you need to appeal to a large audience.
00:39:54
Speaker
Uh, and I think constituencies be damned at that point. Like, yep. Nobody else is really paying attention to that. Like it's all handled with the the legalese in the background anyways.
00:40:05
Speaker
So the the vision and the marketing claims that you're making, as long as you're relatively smart about it and don't do anything that's apparent, that's overstepping bounds, you've got a lot of freedom.
00:40:17
Speaker
And so I think you're you're touching upon, you know, kind of being a movement disorder specialist, it's not the right naming of it. But that's the right path. half like, you know movement, motion is lotion is ah is an expression that an old mentor of mine used to say.
00:40:33
Speaker
um And it's not wrong. you know movement Movement's the fifth vital sign. and there's There's companies out there, and I won't add more plugs because I'm sure you're going to have deal with that later on, but there's companies out there that are tracking movement in ways that are ubiquitous. you know they're They're in the phone in your pocket, and we're getting really good insights into gait dynamics.
00:40:54
Speaker
And that can be has a ton of implications across the board in terms of how we think about overall health. Absolutely. So if we can help to become the catalyst for that, you know, we're the movementologist or whatever, whatever the branding is that we're focused on getting you moving, you know, on your terms, whatever, whatever the catchphrase is, it's going to allow us to tap into something that will transcend classes, transcends demographics. It's going to give us that ability to really expand out. And then coming back around to your question about who should be involved in that,
00:41:36
Speaker
You know, I'm not a fan of this territorial war that we see. Yeah. You know, the it's it's bureaucratic. it's It's red tape tied to politics.
00:41:47
Speaker
um And I think we should go with an open hand to other organizations. You know, OT and and speech want to play a part in that. I think it's better for us. I think it's it's it's a bit like akin to, you know, we're speedboats in an ocean and, you know, more speedboats equals more ocean for us to cover. Yeah.
00:42:04
Speaker
yeah And that to me, you know, when you look at some of the lobbying bodies that we're going up against, having, having more butts in seats, having more impact from those organizations working with us and maybe broader, maybe bringing in kinesiologists and, you know, God forbid personal trainers, you know, like plugging them in, but getting getting, you know, just getting the, the,
00:42:28
Speaker
the Shaking off some of that self-esteem, sorry, that self-entitled, excuse me, ah viewpoint that we kind of when we're coming up through training and just focusing on what is the best for our patients?
00:42:42
Speaker
What's best for the common person?
00:42:46
Speaker
i I like that view and you've got me thinking like, is there even a word? Because I have struggled to come up with a word to be able to describe what what Sarah helps facilitate, which is you know, if you deliver, if we help providers deliver more care in between visits, right?
00:43:05
Speaker
um But like, even what is that? What what does it what does that mean? Right there? I don't know if there's a word in the English language, maybe there's one in a different language. And then I would love to use that. Right. But there is, there's recovery to get back to baseline.
00:43:19
Speaker
And then there's, you know, whether it's optimization or increase, like whatever, but like, there's no word that talks about going from injury to being better than you were beforehand.
00:43:32
Speaker
Right? Like there's there's at least not to my, to my knowledge. And like, that's, that's what I would want it to be called, right? It is something that shows the spectrum of possibility.
00:43:44
Speaker
And it, cause it's not just from recovery back to baseline, right? It's, it's not just, Hey, you tore your ACL and we're going to get you to be able to pass your return, return to sport testing. And that's it. You're done, right? it can be, but it also can be, Hey, we're also going to bulletproof the heck out of both knees and some other things. Cause now we see this and we're going to, you know, be able to, to augment you even further physically. Right. So like,
00:44:09
Speaker
I don't know. There needs to be a word. Maybe that'll be my contribution. You know, can call up Pepsi and see if they're willing and spend their $2 billion on developing a brand for us. um No, ah you know, i think, and think you're right. There needs to be something simple, right? Some kind of simple imagery to connect to that. But if you're,
00:44:31
Speaker
if you're whatever Whatever the word is, if the why beneath it is able to translate into the everyday consumer and they get value, they get a quick, real value that they can measure in their own terms, the rest of it falls into place.
00:44:50
Speaker
So that's that's why I kind of go back to the word something, but the why everything. Yeah.
00:44:58
Speaker
And that that to me is where I think we we as PTs, we as healthcare practitioners that care about these peoples that are going through musculoskeletal or neuromuscular or or you know respiratory pulmonary, cardiopulmonary, or whatever whatever avenue we're in, really need to tie into yeah and and spread that word.
00:45:21
Speaker
Spread the gospel. <unk> We're dropping that challenge as a part of that. so So, yeah, what is what is that? Why? um And who knows? Maybe maybe there will be some new alliances for us and a few other things over the course of the next few years because it It seems like he's going to have to, based on the private practice owners we talked to.
00:45:47
Speaker
um it's Something's going to have to change. You know, it's one of those things that's interesting. you know, we we, Recovery One, we approached private practices. We we talked to everybody, you know large, medium-sized players.
00:46:00
Speaker
Early days, because we I always thought hybrid care was the right way to go. and We took a very proactive approach to it. And what we saw more often than not is we're not feeling the p pinch enough to make the changes.
00:46:11
Speaker
um you know, where you're, you're more of a threat than a value to us. yep And I think that's starting to change. Finally. I think we're starting to see a realization that, you know reimbursement through fee for service and brick and mortar settings, you can't just keep throwing bodies at it that are doing, you know, instead of 30 minutes, 15 minutes and you're adding, you know, seven people on the floor. and say that's That's not going to sustain itself anymore.
00:46:38
Speaker
And so I think this is we're coming to an age, at least I hope that some of these conversations that need to happen will happen. And hopefully you and I will be able to play a role in them and and help to steer them because I think it'll take people like you to really get us there.
00:46:54
Speaker
You know, if if, if it's, if it's a tab Blackburn, you know, who's coming out of retirement to solve these problems, we're, we're probably looking in the wrong place. If we're, if we're rolling up to 80 year olds to make these decisions, I'm not getting political. I promise people that we're probably in trouble, but I think, I think we can do better than that as a profession and as a healthcare system.
00:47:18
Speaker
I would agree. And yeah, I did make a ah joke on that Thursday because it was also the same night of the debate. It's like, this is the debate I'm looking forward to is Drew and Carolina. Not the other one. um So we can get a little bit a little bit there.
00:47:35
Speaker
Well, Sean, I want to say thank you very much. Right. I think you've given a lot of tactical advice for folks. Right. So as innovators in the PT world might be looking to find that organization, right? to To look at the authenticity, transparency, trust, and grit and asking those second, third, you know however many levels you need to get to, so you feel like you really have the the answer.
00:47:59
Speaker
um And then also, you know, don't be afraid to to risk your time and go put yourself in a position that's that's going to stretch you and grow you. um And,
00:48:11
Speaker
doing I think those are are two tactical pieces of advice that that everyone can can take home. um And I want to say thank you very much for the time and an insight.
00:48:22
Speaker
This has been a a fantastic session, and I think you're going to give some folks some things to grow with. That's awesome, Steve. I appreciate the time. i love what you're doing with Sarah. I think you guys have got...
00:48:36
Speaker
that that ah simplicity is the ultimate complexity thing nailed in your business model. So it's right up my alley and keep doing what you're doing. This is great. It'll last. Thank you for listening to another episode of the disruptors.
00:48:49
Speaker
I hope that you were able to take one or two things away that you can apply immediately to your own innovation journey. As always, I'm your host, Stephen Cohen, sponsored by Sarah health. Let's keep moving.