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Sara Bryan, APTA Minnesota and Sara Bryan Solutions
9 Plays2 months ago
In this episode, Steven sits down with Sara Bryan, Treasurer, Executive Committee & Board of Directors at APTA Minnesota and Operations Executive at Sara Bryan Solutions
Learn more about SaRA Health:
https://www.sarahealth.com/
Check out APTA Minnesota and Sara Bryan Solutions:
https://www.mnapta.org/
https://www.sarabryansolutions.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'The Disruptors'
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of The Disruptors, where we're arming you with the tools you need to innovate within the physical therapy space by highlighting those who have come before you. I'm your host, Stephen Cohen. Now, let's get into it. Welcome back to another episode of The Disruptors, where highlighting innovators within the physical therapy
Sarah Bryan's Career Journey
00:00:21
Speaker
industry.
00:00:21
Speaker
Today, i am so glad to have Sarah Bryan join us. Sarah is a physical therapist and fractional operation operations executive with her business, Sarah Bryan Solutions, established in April. She holds a Master of Physical Therapy from St. Catherine University and began her career at the Institute for Athletic Medicine, focusing on patient and provider well-being.
00:00:42
Speaker
Throughout her career, Sarah has excelled both clinically and administratively. At Kindred Home Care, she led the Ortho Home Care program, and at Twin Cities Orthopedics, she contributed to their value-based care department, ensuring optimal patient outcomes.
00:00:56
Speaker
As Director of Operations at CoTechnology, she built a team of physical therapists and discovered the Entrepreneurial Operating System, EOS, for business efficiency. She's also served as the vice president and interim executive director of the APTA of Minnesota, where she improved strategic planning and operations.
00:01:14
Speaker
As a fractional executive, Sarah transforms clinics and health care companies into efficient entities focusing on patient care, process improvement and business growth. Now, let's get into it.
00:01:27
Speaker
So, Sarah, I love to ask this question and we're going to take a ah step back in time. Right. So. Before you decided to go to St. Catherine University, why did you decide to become a PT?
00:01:40
Speaker
where What is your why behind it? Yeah. And thanks for having me. it's It's been nice to get to know you. um And I appreciate being here. um Yeah, I think all of my classmates had always had these stories. I wasn't much of an athlete in high school. I hadn't had an injury, but from the From day one I wanted to do something to help people. I used to play teacher or doctor or um my mom said at one point, she goes, I wasn't sure if you're going to into the convent because I went to Catholic school. Like everything was about...
00:02:15
Speaker
um helping other people. And I think as I started exploring, with we had a friend um that owned his own clinic in Waterloo, Iowa, super small town. um And my mom said, why don't you shadow, which I was super thankful for looking back um and spent a day with him in clinic. And it was, i think for me that stood out was the fact that you know My interactions with doctors were so almost more transactional. And I would still say that we have that. and I saw at PT, he had a mixture of new patients and just ones that were coming back and thanking him. And just that interaction really appealed to me.
00:02:52
Speaker
So then as I was continuing to go through my journey of exploring healthcare, care um it was like, you know what? I think PT is the right place for me. So just seeing all of that.
00:03:03
Speaker
um And there was a little bit in starting at St. Ben's. I'm like, well, do I want to do this? Do I want to do business? As you heard from my bio, I did kind of have that work. Do I do this? And I said, well, it's easier to start as PT and then switch afterwards.
00:03:17
Speaker
So I kind of got on that track.
Patient-Focused Approach in PT
00:03:18
Speaker
And I think, you know, just how your journey in life goes, um, you know Both of those passions have kind of um continued with me. And I'm thankful for my career in PT on the front lines um at various moments, but I do like the business side too. So that's kind of how I found it. I never experienced PT as a patient, um but just really could see the difference in the delivery of healthcare care in that setting compared to other things I had experienced. Yeah.
00:03:47
Speaker
that's That's very cool. So you're you're right. We do hear a lot of like, oh, I had this injury. um yeah I of a guess we had on a a few weeks ago and he yeah had an injury, but also funny enough, was was also a pastor before he became ah a tt So yeah, almost like similarly, y'all should meet on that. And so yeahall should meet think is and on that and so I love that. So you were drawn in more by the relationship that is the, like the undercurrent of the foundation of of physical therapy. yeah Am i you know summarizing that that correctly?
00:04:26
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I figured, you know, through my career and different tests you take and things that come up, I'm definitely a people person. I get charged by meeting new people,
00:04:38
Speaker
um learning their stories, and then I think ultimately trying to help them in whatever way that is. And that just provided a really nice avenue to combine both of that. So I don't think i knew that at the time, but I just, you know, you kind of just follow, kind of keep following your passions and and doing the things that you enjoy and it gets you there.
00:04:58
Speaker
hundred percent, right. And it your your comment on the the physician side is is like resonates with me really, really well, right? like you don't have any You don't have time to tell a doctor how you feel about a potential remedy or whether that be pharmaceutical or not, right? It's like, hey, ogie you're concerned about, I mean, especially today, right You're concerned about your weight? Okay, perfect. Here's a script for Ozempic. Like, whoa, like, can you talk about this? Like, nope, 10 minutes is up. Like, I'll see you later.
00:05:30
Speaker
and And so versus ah being in a physical therapy clinic, it's it's so cool to see just the on the fly adjustments based on the context of the patient lives in.
00:05:44
Speaker
Right. And it's that's why we get excited about serving PTs is therere they're they're having to take in get myself trouble with this one, but they're having to take in more data than many other practitioners. Right. It's not a flow chart.
00:05:59
Speaker
Like, oh, if you have this, then prescribe this. Right. It's much more of a, hey, like you got to know the whole person to be able to find something that sticks. And then you got to sell the hardest thing in the world, which is behavior change.
Transition to Operations and Mentorship
00:06:12
Speaker
yeah And.
00:06:14
Speaker
So you've done behavior change, not only at the patient level, but also at the organizational level. So walk me through a little bit of, of how you got to, to move from the, uh, the treatment side into the operation side. And then I definitely have like a a part B around similarities and dissimilarities around behavior change at the administrative level.
00:06:36
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, I was, um, Pretty fortunate to have good mentors when I was started at the Institute for Athletic Medicine and and it and it kind of just worked out opportunity wise. It was a smaller clinic. So pretty young, I became supervisor um about three years out from PT school and I kept getting drawn the more I learned about the back end and how it was like, this could be better and this could be better for the patient and this could be better for the providers.
00:07:07
Speaker
And just knowing my own level of fatigue and trying to figure everything out, um I would just get drawn to that. So then just started doing different um programs and activities, raising my hand for things that anytime they wanted a focus group or anybody, I started getting asked for that kind of thing. And it just, um I felt like I kept uncovering these little things that in my mind were maybe decisions made in the best intent, right?
00:07:36
Speaker
but But really put extra strain or what couldn't check the box. And obviously, how i was one of the first clinics to go live on Epic. So way back, I didn't have a smartphone until five years into my career. I Like that with all the apps and we talk about texting and all the things that that um Sarah does. ah Yeah, that was all unknown. So definitely there wasn't the resources, but even just watching how Epic was implemented and how that wasn't...
00:08:07
Speaker
designed correctly. They didn't factor in, oh, we need cosines and we need all of these things. Like there's so many things that sounded great, but really was built in a way that just added more stress to the clinicians, not, um,
00:08:23
Speaker
helping them. And not that it was promoted as helping them, but you know, that's, it was like, you just have to do that. And I think that there's definitely opportunity with all the tech, with AI, with different things, how it's not replacing the provider, but it's really enhancing their workflow.
00:08:38
Speaker
um And that just continued to become a passion of mine. And ironically, then I have three boys. um They're teenagers, my first ones in college. So I was having those children as I was going through my career.
00:08:51
Speaker
And in some ways that I was taking a step back, like, oh, there's this education program coordinator that was it was a role held previously by an athletic trainer. They didn't really know what they wanted.
00:09:02
Speaker
And I just needed a break, but yeah I learned a ton of the backside about planning things and how really to work with um really surgeons and primary care sports medicine providers, athletic trainers, PTs on planning this content, how fun it was when we could really organize and I could get the like the details covered that their creative abilities to come up with speakers and and do more. So I really enjoyed that. It was kind of a part-time role while I was having my kids.
00:09:30
Speaker
um But I really learned a lot and just continue to see that, um that I love love that. um And then I think even in, I took after my third son, I'm like, all right, let's try this home care thing. I figured Medicare is something that's, I'll be on it.
00:09:47
Speaker
It's huge. I need understand it. I that. The supervisory requirements and stuff in clinic. So I ended up um working in home care, Which was really humbling because you're in the home. I mean, talk about being meeting the patient where they're at.
00:10:03
Speaker
it It taught me so much. It was one of the hardest jobs I've had I would say, of just the documentation requirements. And again, that probably tested my limits of what I could take from a process and standpoint of what like didn't make sense, but we had to fill it out, even though you're contradicting yourselves in areas on their billing you know paperwork, essentially.
00:10:24
Speaker
um And then quickly, there was an opportunity to start their orthopedic program. So I just, I felt like I kept getting drawn to how do we help people that are in healthcare care or making decisions that affect healthcare, the patients and providers, how do we get ourselves at the table with that experience? And so I i started to feel guilty about not treating patients, but then realized, you know what, I can hopefully serve them well by being there and being present in those conversations and saying, hey, do we think about this? Have we thought about that?
00:10:57
Speaker
Or wait, let me actually see the tech to see how it's going to work to make sure it does do what you say. so that skepticism side came through. Oh, there's so much there. There's so much there. I want to ah highlight a a few things that that you said I think are are really good takeaways for folks. So one, good mentors. That's been a common thread in pretty much every episode.
00:11:22
Speaker
um So we'll lay that. Yes, check. like Got to do that. And we've covered that at at length. But one of the things we haven't covered at length, which I do want to spend time time talking about is you mentioned you kept raising your hand.
00:11:37
Speaker
And To me, that says you were willing to take risk with your time. And so, like, how did you go about choosing what to raise your hand for? Or is just like, hey, I'm going to just raise my hand for everything for
Risk-Taking and Healthcare Improvement
00:11:50
Speaker
right now?
00:11:50
Speaker
You know, walk me through a little bit if I may be asking you to to remember back. i know you've slept since then. But, you know, as as you think about that time when you were raising your hands, like what were so what some of your decision criteria? Like, how how did you think about that?
00:12:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think, um you know, initially it was just the topic probably intrigued me. Like I was just drawn to it um or enough where and And my dad was on a lot of boards and did a lot of things. So probably there was some influence there of just knowing he had night meetings or would stay extra to do some things.
00:12:27
Speaker
But innately, i I've learned that about myself. I'm just kind of drawn to anything. It always was in the guise of like improvement, right? Like, hey, we want to do this to do that. It wasn't like, hey, do you want to come and sort paper?
00:12:39
Speaker
um Now, if it was like to really help a department, I would probably still do it, but would be more like volunteering versus feeling like I was going to contribute. So um I think that initially it it was, um you know, just that innate, there was some sort of good that could come out of it.
00:12:59
Speaker
um i will say I've been in experiences where there was, you know, that probably drives my passion where we're sitting at the table. this sounds great. All these providers are giving their input. And then it just feels like it was a check the box moment.
00:13:13
Speaker
And we'll take that, write it down. And we're just going to put that over here. And then we're still going to do it like what we thought. Like it was, yeah I think we didn't say what, what they wanted us to say. So then it turned into this, well, how do we, this is, yeah, we did a focus group and this is how we decided to roll it out. and like,
00:13:30
Speaker
well, that's not really what I heard in the room. So it kind of made my place stronger to say, you know, Just that. and And again, nobody's doing I don't I've had the mentality, especially when we worked at TCO, we had to get into a lot of hard conversations.
00:13:46
Speaker
Nobody wakes up and says, like, I want to be mean or I want to ruin health care or I want to make providers lives hard. Like even the insurance company, I don't believe that they think that. um I just think people are just naive and they they get more focused and and narrow um focused on their business.
00:14:02
Speaker
what they ultimately need to accomplish versus maybe rethinking what that end goal looks like and how it affects people. ah hundred percent. And I, I really, yeah I appreciate that. And, ah you know, the, the takeaway, I guess, you know, for, for point number one is you let your passion drive where you, where you raise your hand for.
00:14:24
Speaker
And I think that's a really smart way to look at it because it's going to be extra time. It's going to be extra pain, right? There's going to be some extra discomfort along with that. So ah if unless you have passion to buoy ah those more darker days or or minutes or whatever, you know, the the time period may be, um you know, letting your passion drive that. I think that that's really important. And, know, you talked about ah being at the table.
00:14:51
Speaker
And I want to also you know, prior you said, um you just have to do that. And I think that phrase and that mentality worked until COVID-ish, right? That worked. And now, I mean, and and this is lived experience on on my side, right? It's outside of a very select few practice owners that we work with and leaders, like there that mentality is all but, you know, gone the way of the dodo bird.
00:15:22
Speaker
And I think that's good, right? Because as a as a tech company in the healthcare space, or health tech company, or however you want to describe us, so we, we know that it can't just be like the owner or practice leader or whoever's just like, you guys got to do this. Um, that doesn't fly anymore, which I think is actually great.
00:15:44
Speaker
It holds us to a higher standard. We cannot check the box, not that we would want to anyway. Um, but it holds all the, everyone to the, the standard, the high standard that you, uh, that you have for patient care, right? Like we should have almost like provider care, right? On that's our side and try to come at it with the same fervor that that clinicians do.
00:16:07
Speaker
um That's, I really, really like the passion driving where you raise your hand. I think that's that's really important. And I would just say, too, like some I think what I also learned is is is really, you know, they always say that be a good listener because it is worth understanding why some you know administration is coming down and saying you need to do this. I mean, it's insurance companies are paying their bills. Regulations are setting the standards of what counts.
00:16:34
Speaker
um So I think it's it's recognizing even as providers, I've had lots of space conversations, especially when I was at the APTA for a year and a half of people calling in in that frustration. um And so I do think it's it's helpful to understand what what the constraints are on the business.
00:16:53
Speaker
um But wanting to have come with like a solution of how do we work together um to make this happen. And I would agree. I think that there's more willingness to be more innovative and figure out how do we do this. And just having that litmus test of if you're creating more burden on somebody, either side, yeah whatever department, there's usually going to be anything new, usually create something somewhere.
00:17:18
Speaker
How do you minimize that and then show the value behind why it's necessary? Because I think there's just plenty of things that people just were worried about, you know, and then fight back at the things that that are maybe impacting your business or going to impact morale.
00:17:32
Speaker
I know hiring is tough these days, like getting... keeping staff retention, the preventing burnout, all those things. we you know it's There's not a perfect answer, but I just think that willingness to engage in that type of philosophy and conversation is is helpful for both sides or all sides.
00:17:51
Speaker
There's a there's ah chapter in Jocko Willink's Dichotomy of Leadership that actually talks about just that, right? Of, hey, try, ah do your best and then make it your job to align like interest across the the continuum, right? Like, oh, like, okay, I'm a staff PT, right? Like I'm being asked to do this thing. Like, why is the clinic director asking me to do this thing? And just even understanding that, like either A, you're going to build more empathy for like why it has to happen or ah B, what is probably likely to, more likely to occur is like, okay, I understand we have to do this thing because of this
00:18:29
Speaker
influence, like, could we tweak it a little bit? Right. Cause think you're, you're right. There is no perfect answer. Uh, but I'll, I'll add to that. There's no perfect answer broadly, but there are likely perfect answers in microcosms. And, and that's where your, your advice to be a good listener and learn the lie, I think is, is really salient, especially at, at this point in time. So we're up to two, typically get to three. So,
00:18:58
Speaker
Way ahead of schedule. And because you are, we'll we'll take a little bit of a a detour. You know, you and I have had this this conversation. There's all sorts of fractional opportunities for clinicians out there. I think of like Luna for physical therapy, right, for practitioners that want to get a couple extra hours here and there.
00:19:19
Speaker
And almost works like fractionally as a PT in ah a different environment. But it doesn't have to be in delivering care. Right. And so I'd love for you to talk about your journey into a fractional executive with your PT background.
Fractional Executive Role Benefits
00:19:35
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, i think over the last um year and a half, I did have the opportunity kind of my interim role. ah I was on the board and then um we had some operational changes and I was in a position recently.
00:19:50
Speaker
to take on and do that. it was kind of my first thought of, it it was more full time, and that interim role where it's not where you're signing up for as long as you you know, until it's not like where most jobs you're, you're going for it. So, and then looking at like, Oh, the consultant versus, oh sorry. My yeah um consulting versus fractional.
00:20:12
Speaker
And then um kind of over the last year, I've been networking more outside of healthcare, just kind of more curious on through network connections, other healthcare providers, but also marketing and HR and, and learning that world a little bit to, just see how people functioned, partly ah some of COVID. Those were the events that started back that friends invited me to.
00:20:36
Speaker
and And just learning that I think fractional as a whole is becoming a bigger um thing and becoming more real, that there's a huge movement. um And what I see that was kind of encouraging or where I thought was opportunity is in a lot of these either are private practices of PT or the health tech company I was a part of was so small. I mean, even at a couple million in revenue, you don't always have all the resources you want.
00:21:04
Speaker
So how do you bring expertise and just get what you need? kind of that same, that efficient and streamlined services to be able to provide that. And I think um I'm seeing a lot of um opportunities more in the health, in the healthcare care space, um where they want providers.
00:21:24
Speaker
And some of that's fractional, some of it's not. But I think that there's a huge opportunity to help ah progress healthcare care and create innovation by hiring people at a fraction of the cost and the time, but it's still effective and what's needed. Not everything needs to become a full time job.
00:21:43
Speaker
um And I'm fortunate to be in some place in my life where I can do that. There's always insurance and all these other things, but I definitely think that there's enough ways around it. And I'm learning more and more from that community that there's a lot of success and people are very energized and they feel dedicated, but maybe it's just to a few different companies and they're in they deliver deliver high value and they're able to, yeah, have satisfaction and and meet all the needs of their families.
00:22:11
Speaker
So I'm excited to share that. so I mean, i'm a I'm a very big proponent of it because we've done that with, ah even with our chief clinical officer, ah who, you know, at first we just, like...
00:22:25
Speaker
Could we have found work for him to do? Sure. Right. You can always find work to do. There, you know the the Parkinson's law is just ah a great one to look up if for for those listening. if If you haven't, it's why somehow meetings that are 30 minutes always end lasting 30 minutes. Like it just ends up getting filled somehow. yeah That's Parkinson's law.
00:22:44
Speaker
um And so, know, I think there's there's two things that, you're pointing out as strengths of a fractional role. ah One, selfishly, you youre like you're only going to get the highest value work, right? So you're going to get to do the stuff that you probably enjoy the most, like the highest value work to to be able to do, um which is which is fantastic. And then you more at a holistic level, right?
00:23:14
Speaker
By giving a giving a a way to be able to interact with these companies in a way that they can afford, right? Then you get the seats at the table too, right? Like it's it's really a nice, like two birds, one stone.
00:23:30
Speaker
Thank you for listening to this episode. This would not be possible without sponsorship of Sarah Help. Sarah is the relationship operating system for physical therapy practices, driving better patient outcomes, improved arrival rate and improved financial margins.
00:23:47
Speaker
you'd like to learn more, check them out at Sarah, S-A-R-A health.com, Sarah health.com. And if you'd be interested in advertising with us and helping us produce even more great stories, please let us know at Steven at Sarah health.com. Now back to the episode.
00:24:06
Speaker
I'm also drawn to our tech. The tech company was founded by a nurse, um, Knowing the PT practices, a lot of my colleagues um have moved on and owning their practices.
00:24:18
Speaker
You know, you don't get trained in business side of it. And and so you need to have that support. yeah um um And I just have... found that I do have that skill set of improving things, making getting things more efficient, going in launching programs, starting things that if I can help do that, that isn't a natural ability for a lot of PTs. It does a lot of the work.
00:24:42
Speaker
Project management ah follows kind how we do an evaluation. So that's how I'll talk about it. But again, having that time and the energy and that that drive. you know If things are your natural passion, it takes less energy to do if you're forcing yourself to do things that aren't your passion.
00:24:57
Speaker
So trying to help those um entrepreneurs in the healthcare care space you know take that stuff that's not driving their passions off their plate and doing that, and hopefully by a fractional way is is a way to ah do that. I'm not opposed to helping people on a short-term basis, kind of like to did with a chapter, but...
00:25:15
Speaker
I mean, I i just don't, so I think that the world is changing where that's just becoming more real, like really. focus on outcomes, really focus on what are the deliverables that you need. And that's what you're paying for. It makes, keeps companies more nimble.
00:25:29
Speaker
We talked about the hospitals versus when I was at TCO, it was, they were more nimble. That's how they could stay in the market versus in other States where a lot of surgeons were being bought up by and employed by hospitals. Those surgeons that always stayed with me that if you can stay nimble in the market and, and then you're able to,
00:25:49
Speaker
you know, keep your private practice, keep whatever business you have going and not have to give it away if that's what's being the end result. So. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, you mentioned that you looked outside of healthcare care as as well.
00:26:03
Speaker
I know that when I talked to some of my fellow founder friends and that are aren't in healthcare, care if anyone ever asks like, Oh man, like who do you think would be good for like a customer success role or, you know, so you know someone like that, like PT, hundred percent, like without a doubt, uh, you some of the strongest, you know, empathy, some of the strongest research, like especially personal research skills, uh, behavior change, right? Like yeah all of the things that are going to be that, that you, if you're going to like think of like the A player, right. You're going
00:26:38
Speaker
Like, oh, I want these five things that I just listed off. Like, oh, well, PTs like have all of those in spades, like coming out of it. So, yeah. yeah How was your journey outside of of of health care?
PT Skills in Business Applications
00:26:53
Speaker
Yeah, it was um it was interesting. It was a COVID-related change. But, it you know, and i I'm always an early adopter with tech. Like, yep, our clinic can go first with Epic.
00:27:05
Speaker
um Let's build this care management software. I'll be the point person. Like, I do like tech. So it it kind of happened to be this good role that really matched from what was coming off of the bundled technology.
00:27:19
Speaker
care that I was doing at TCO. And it it was a night. So it was an easy transition in that way. But it was different. I'm downtown you know at a WeWork, um sitting with all these other entrepreneurs. So it was kind of a culture shock in that realm.
00:27:35
Speaker
um And then kind of discovering that the team that was hired to be kind of their um client success managers, um it was an outcomes company. So we change the name. So because most of the people that are talking to her, some were clinicians, some IT, but um outcomes managers so ended up hiring four or five PTs.
00:27:57
Speaker
um And that really went over well with our clients were mostly academic hospital systems throughout the United States. And so being able to talk data and going into that role, it was rewarding for me. i had clients as well. And then kind of one by one switching out the team into these therapists. And it was a little bit post-COVID burnout, I would say. but And i'm so I'm always very thankful for all of our practitioner and the the providers and PTs and nurses, all the staff that are just day in and day out can do it.
00:28:33
Speaker
um But I think if you're not if you need a change for just a part of your life or a different direction, to use those skills in. There's so many jobs that that does overlay, like you said. it's There is a lot of value into the skill set we've established by being ah physical therapist, doing assessments, looking at goals and outcomes, and and and following through and and all the people piece of it too.
00:29:03
Speaker
um that's super beneficial in the business world. So I've seen a lot of transition. I've seen a lot on LinkedIn of client success and other companies that PTs are moving into. So as much as I don't want to see people leave the profession, I don't really see it as leaving, but like broadening. Like nurses, there's a lot of nursing roles that it's not really thought of second nature, but now I see PTs going into that realm and I definitely think it's appropriate.
00:29:28
Speaker
so Is that the future for your company? Is you're going to be like the Luna, but for fractional executives? That's a good idea. I'll consider that on my next personal business planning session. so yeah and That's what brainstorming credit. That's it. That's what brainstorming credit. That's all.
00:29:49
Speaker
Ideas don't matter. Execution does. So ah nothing more than than just a a footnote would be would be plenty. Yeah. That sounds good. i promise that will happen if that happens.
00:30:01
Speaker
Yeah. No, I think it was a good experience. I ended up um only leaving because, um which, um you know, thinking about my life, which I was scared to do was to not be a PT.
00:30:13
Speaker
You know, like you go to school. Yeah. You have this degree and a lot of times student loans that go with it, especially now. um And to feel like you're giving up on it.
00:30:26
Speaker
um That was an interesting thing to go through that I felt like, oh, you know, even though I'm in the healthcare care realm, I'm not a PT. How does that? And that was the same with my team. We'd have some of those conversations of what does that mean? um And just reap reevaluating your value that you're bringing and how I couldn't have had any of the roles that I've had um without being a PT first.
00:30:49
Speaker
So going there, that was um hard. And then we had a family um friend very close to my kids and us. um Their son died of sudden cardiac arrest.
00:31:02
Speaker
Um, About 6 months prior to my dad's, my dad's health was also declining. And working with a coach, another thing I'd recommend if people... It's been very... I've had a coach actually started at TCL. They invested in our team and and then I hired her independently.
00:31:20
Speaker
um But really helped me see that, you know what, it's okay to step back and... you know really looking at our finances to say, okay, really, if you really need to step away, what can you do? And I literally didn't think it was possible. And we ended up... you know We lived off even less than I thought we could have in the time without really being the big...
00:31:42
Speaker
You know, it just sounds scary, really. I think it's more fear based. But that's what I took about. to take about six months off, kind of start the consulting, figure figuring it out, and then had the opportunity to go work for the chapter. That was kind of an in-between thing. But I think it is, um as I'm getting older now, um learning that, you know, what
00:32:03
Speaker
just finding places to provide value if or that's what charges me. um Which I think that's most people you want to do something worthwhile and have provide and be important to something or have something as your, your meaning, whether it's in a job or your family or whatnot, that it's okay. Like it doesn't, if you sign up to work with a company, it's not, I mean, especially since COVID it's not this like, Oh, they expect you to work there for 10 20 years. It's,
00:32:31
Speaker
it's there's going to be cycles and it's okay if, if your life changes or that you need to do something different or it's not a good fit. That's, i think the other thing is just learning that um having people find help, says help them find opportunities where they better align.
00:32:48
Speaker
So it is better. Even if you have some like issues with personnel um it's two-sided. You want to help other people. find where they can be you know beneficial and find joy and have value in their work.
00:33:02
Speaker
Being miserable in a job doesn't help either party. So um I've kind of learned just, I'm just going to roll with this. it's where It's where I need to be right now. And... i'm I'm okay with the unknown, which is, it's a hard, not every day, right? it still have days in New York. You probably as an entrepreneur, you know, like there's, what did I do?
00:33:24
Speaker
and it's just, it's and I was warned by that by my coach too. it It's always that, you know, did I make the right decision? But at the end of the day, I've realized there's a lot to give and there's a lot of options out there.
Balancing Work and Family
00:33:37
Speaker
ton, a ton. You know, there's a, I was reconnected with Tannis. He's now at NetHealth. His company got bought by NetHealth. And their motto was wait five minutes.
00:33:51
Speaker
And like more or less, nothing is as good or is ah as bad as it seems in the moment. And I think that's a really good advice. And I like his framing of it, too, of just wait five minutes. um And when you talk about that,
00:34:06
Speaker
almost that like identity struggle, right? As a provider that might not be providing direct patient care. i know my wife's a nurse practitioner and you know she's been a, she was an RN on the floor, became a nurse practitioner and and struggles with that because there's some things that she really likes, um you know, in the aesthetics world and and elsewhere that, ah but she has that, like when you start about like when I have student loans, like, oh my gosh, like it's like the same,
00:34:34
Speaker
Dissonance right then it can be so tough to to overcome and you know I don't have You lived experience on on that side as you'll see it vicariously And when just hearing you talk about it, the similarities are just wildly, ah you know wildly similar. and so you know it sounds like that career change was you know something that that you're incredibly proud of on and the career and and PT side, right?
00:35:00
Speaker
um yeah What about personally? like via What would you consider your yeah your big accomplishment on on the personal side?
00:35:12
Speaker
Yeah. and I think one of the other traits I inherited from my dad is that like work that I was, i would put a lot of time into work all like, and not afraid to do that. And sometimes at the sacrifice of, um,
00:35:29
Speaker
my family and, you know, the last, especially since COVID changed, um, our friends lost their son, all those things put things into perspective. And really what has been fun, my oldest is 19. He's going to the university of Iowa, studying engineering, and now kind of having that relationship with him. and then I have a 16 and a 13 year old, um, and watching them as adults and and just seeing like,
00:35:59
Speaker
that interaction and having them how we talk and how we spend time and they still want to hang out. And for me, refocusing um and still being able to work hard and then be available um and just really refocusing that for myself, kind of work related. But it it was kind of that self-care thing I'll talk about is really how to refocus my priorities where I really wasn't...
00:36:24
Speaker
um Losing out on the work side, like I thought I was, and then setting boundaries. Like, so I really, everything we do, should say is for, like, I think about my family and my kids and just watching how they've turned into these amazing teenagers and adults and how they process things and have jobs. And they're so different, but yet they're all on their own path. I'm just really excited to see where they go.
00:36:51
Speaker
That's so cool. I, uh, I'm a couple of decades behind, or not a couple decades, a little bit behind you. Uh, we've got one two year old, uh, that we, i I'm in our coworking space today. yes yeah It's kind of like a, wework we uh, maybe a, we play.
00:37:07
Speaker
Um, i like it it's, uh, I like it being in here because especially when he gets home from daycare, like it's a, yeah it's, it's a, it's a stop. Like,
00:37:18
Speaker
It's not happening until after bedtime, which is is something I it's it's ah it's a design into it. um That's yeah, I completely agree with you. And where where I start to think of, too, I'd be curious your thoughts on on this is, you know, you you're taking risk and you're modeling that for your kids, right, for your boys. And i i think about that a lot of, you know technically,
00:37:48
Speaker
or not technically, like this is by no means as safe as just staying at Deloitte Consulting, right? There was like a very obvious path up. And yes, you had to perform, but like there were guardrails around being able to do that.
00:38:01
Speaker
There's no guardrails in entrepreneurship, right? Like you can do as much financial damage and personal damage as you want to. Uh, like people are more than happy to, you know, give you the rope and tie the new, like, you know, they'll let you go out there as long as you, uh, you know, you want to, um, you'd be curious, like, did, did your, did your boys have any you know impact into even some of the risks that you've taken to, to be able to be that model for them and show like, Hey, this is possible.
00:38:32
Speaker
Yeah. I think, um, my, my youngest is, um, our most outgoing energetic kid. I shouldn't, the other two are this kind of like the firstborn in the middle. And he's like that youngest that's energy. And he's always been willing to just do whatever, get up in front of people. And, and, and I'm, I can be extroverted, but I'm more, I lean more introverted. So some of those chances, like he doesn't have a fear and he's been that way since he was, you know, crawling and how he would just independence and,
00:39:09
Speaker
just all the little things he would do and how he interacted with people. um So I would kind of tell myself, well, i am his parent, you know, with my husband is more a little bit on the conservative side with me, that it's okay, somehow, you know, that must be inside of us. at some point I just need a channel will and and put myself out there. um And it was fun. My just in creating my website and even Sarah Bryan solutions versus Sarah Bryan consulting, Ben, my oldest was like, Oh, I like solutions. Cause the iteration and just having them weigh in, it, it was kind of fun for them to say like, Oh, you're going to start that. And that's cool.
00:39:51
Speaker
That's great job, mom. And, um, things like that. So it is it's it's nice to have that where I didn't... They would always like, no, what do you do? You're a PT. They would just say I was a PT. And I'm like, yeah, I'm a PT that works in the office too.
00:40:05
Speaker
ah yeah like They just didn't really know what I did. So it is... Even though they don't really know what I'm doing, they can conceptualize around the fact that I'm running my own business. And and it is nice that they...
00:40:20
Speaker
nice at they put me on a pedestal for that, which, yeah, I'm like, well, I paid you. know You have your days. It's like you can build a business and do all that. But um it's been nice to to talk through that with them and and hope you know I could see them going down that track too, potentially as entrepreneurs, at least a couple of them. So if I'm inspiring, that's great.
00:40:42
Speaker
um Time will tell, I guess. From a lived experience ah on my side, you know i don't think... I don't know if I would have started, especially my first business, if it wasn't for my dad having been an entrepreneur and just knowing that that's possible, right? Like opening my aperture to... you know and and you know I'm in Kansas City, right? ah you're You're in Minnesota.
00:41:04
Speaker
We're not exactly known for the tech hubs, right? Now, i'm going Minnesota, I have Grand Minneapolis, I can yeah growing, but anyway, it's not the Bay Area where we get to see that all the time growing up. And so, you just even knowing that like, I could be that person um by see, like by only feeling one degree of separation away.
00:41:23
Speaker
i don't know what that will unlock, but you know, I think it's probably not bad. Right. So I, I, I really look forward to seeing how that flourishes and in the ripple effect of, of what you've done, you know, both within your own family and outside of
Advocacy for Direct Access in PT
00:41:40
Speaker
it. And, and as we get to, to wrapping up here, I do have my favorite question I get to ask, which is if you had a magic wand and you can fix one thing within physical therapy, what would it be? And it can't be more magic wands. we've
00:41:58
Speaker
Uh, but what, what would it be? Yeah. Um, There's a lot. great But I think in coming back to physical therapy, um you know, i key especially with some recent um involvement in hearing from payers or different the models and how things work, I think, you know, really continuing to hear how the MSK, the musculoskeletal spend um is is really ah burden for insurance companies, but it's where their highest spend is. and And just like, then there's those people and seeing, um i had insurance companies say, you know, you're big in Minnesota, we have 90 day direct access. So it's not full unrestricted direct access. We still keep fighting, but legislature, these, especially these days is so interesting. And
00:42:51
Speaker
difficult to to change that. um That really has nothing to do with the literature or evidence about around it. So like when insurance companies are saying the thing holding you back is direct access, so I think just a full direct access for all PTs across states, I think would really do a lot to improve the whole system.
00:43:10
Speaker
And getting... having insurers, patients, everyone recognize the value of movement and PT and just how, when we're looking at all these chronic diseases, again, liking to go big picture, i think it's such a vital thing.
00:43:27
Speaker
You know, everyone's like, Oh, it's like still treats us as a modality at times. Like, Oh, go get PT. You don't go get cardiology. You, you get, it's a whole thing. It's, Oh, I did PT check. And it's, I think just that if,
00:43:42
Speaker
My hopeful, but especially when I watch these younger students coming up that are passionate about it and seeing that excitement, getting doctorates now, um the money going into it, it's like it's there is that value there, but it's not being realized.
00:43:57
Speaker
um And I think that whatever all those barriers are, those could just go away. um The tangible one is direct access for everybody, but. I, oh, that ring is just loud and clear. You know, part of what we have have seen within Sarah is especially for someone post discharge messaging back and basically like, hey, I had something else flare up. Can I come back in and see you?
00:44:24
Speaker
Now, granted, for Kansas Missouri, the direct access isn't that bad. So like I think Kansas is actually really darn good. um But they're able to get in and and do that, right? And it goes back to your point on like you don't get PT. like That person didn't get a commodity called physical therapy, right? They have a physical therapist, and they do understand the value. And boom, like they're they're right back. And doing that as the first line of defense instead of PCP, NSAIDs,
00:44:55
Speaker
like but potentially an MRI, x like all things. And not that there isn't a place and time for those, but, you know, for non-specific low back pain, MRI is probably shouldn't be the the first thing or, you know, somewhere in the top three.
00:45:08
Speaker
ah Right. So I, I completely agree with you on there. And, and where I would love to see the industry be able to go is be able to, to be able to just quantify and document that value that's delivered because,
00:45:24
Speaker
I think that is is is woefully mistaken today.
Challenges in Quantifying PT's Value
00:45:28
Speaker
Right. And there's two pieces of that. like like One is you're having to fight against the natural human tendency to reward the firefighter, not the person who puts in the fire alarm.
00:45:40
Speaker
um And so because it is preventative in nature. like It's so hard, right? Like, hey, this PT had an amazing ah you episode relationship with this patient, which then resulted in this patient losing 20 pounds because they decided to get him to exercise. Like, well, what is the other, like, what you kind of got to guess, right?
00:46:04
Speaker
And there's not a follow-up to be able to to know that. it So I think it's both a data approach data obstacle as well as a um like just a human nature obstacle. Right.
00:46:17
Speaker
But yeah that doesn't mean people like you and I shouldn't try. ah So, and you have to start somewhere. don't, that was the biggest, I had a lot of um rewarding experiences for the two or so years that doing value-based care, managing bundles. I worked with patients pre-op, post-op, it was around total knees.
00:46:36
Speaker
And I was a care manager with nurses. So we had a couple of PTs and a couple nurses And going on that journey, pre-op to post-op, was so enlightening. And I mean, that could probably be a whole other podcast when you about the healthcare system.
00:46:50
Speaker
I've just like those, the other things, um the social determinants of health and all the that is now like you're starting to see that more in mainstream discussions. But um The hard part was they were ending it. Luckily, it was kind of right ended at COVID. So we didn't leave anybody in the the dust, but we had just ended the program the week before. So think like their bundle was just ending. Look, that's why I'm thankful for that, um that everybody was through. But it was.
00:47:18
Speaker
We saved money. So guess what? Then they keep lowering the bar. It's like, you're not really rewarded for delivering better care, saving money by getting patients home sooner, um preventing ER visits, doing those high value, like low value add high cost things.
00:47:36
Speaker
um Okay. Now we're going drop it. So now it's not tangible. So it's like, there's something there in the system, but it's, it's not there. So like picking away at it and the pieces and that's kind of where I had to go. Like, do I even leave healthcare? Am I so frustrated or do I get back in and where can I make some tangible improvements that then hopefully eventually um builds? And even back when we were doing that work, um Justina Lehman, who is the nurse practitioner that ran the program, she just said, unfortunately the work that we're doing, we probably won't see the actual results in our lifetime.
00:48:12
Speaker
And you have to just go with it and you do it for your kids and you do it for their kids. And we got to get somewhere. So it's just trying to find the tangible pieces. You can make effective change, collect data, bring it, yeah i'll raise your hand, get up, get it to the right people and get it seen. That's probably you know where we're at right now.
00:48:35
Speaker
I would have to agree. Well, in closing, going to take the two of these really, really good points that that you've brought up, which is one, let your passion drives you know where you raise your hand and two, to be a good listener and learn the why of things as they come down. Because that's ultimately like both of those are, I think, making it full circle is how you get the seat of the table.
00:48:57
Speaker
And getting this to the table means you can actually change what's coming down to all of your peers and patients that that you all treat. So I think those are are two fantastic pieces of advice.
00:49:09
Speaker
There was more in there than than just that, but those are the two that I'm going highlight. ah Sarah, where can people find you? Of course, we'll have it in the show notes and everything, but where can people find you to learn more about you and you potentially work with you?
00:49:22
Speaker
Yep. And I'm on LinkedIn, Sarah, um LinkedIn, Sarah-Brian, and then sarahbryansolutions.com. So, and definitely if you're looking to connect with other like-minded people like LinkedIn, there's a lot of groups. And and that's been really helpful when I've learned from my networking marketing people.
00:49:40
Speaker
So please, if anybody here is listening, I'm happy to link in and connect with people either way. Perfect. And with that, I want to thank you so much for joining us on this episode of The Disruptors. So thank you, everybody. Have a great rest your day. Thank you for listening to another episode of The Disruptors.
00:49:59
Speaker
I hope that you were able to take one or two things the away that you can apply immediately to your own innovation journey. As always, I'm your host, Stephen Cohen, sponsored by Sarah Health. Let's keep moving.